Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

** Why would I have an excommunicated gay former Mormon on the podcast? Well, I’ve learned that my excommunicated friends are usually good people—often doing the best they can with complex circumstances—children of the same Heavenly Parents and my spirit brother/sister. I learned a lot from Steven. Steven is not in the space “of burn it all down” and “everyone should leave the church”. He gives grace to me for being in the Church and I’m returning that grace. His story is powerful and helps me consider what I can do to better love and support my LGBTQ friends. When we know better, we do better. ** My friend Steven Mark Trier (age 58, adopted, excommunicated in 1992) joins us to share his story. Steven (a talented pianist, composer, and producer), takes us back to a time when there were few resources and limited understanding for gay Latter-day Saints. Steven talks about being gay and doing all he could to not be gay including service a mission “to be straight” and considering castration. Steven talks about accepting himself as God made me. Steven talks about how hard it was to leave the Mormon church—all the community that he enjoyed—and the chance to share his musical talents. Steven talks about how that was all necessary as he felt he needed to be “in-charge of his own destiny” and be authentic. Steven talks about “why would a God who made me as I am send me to hell for being me” Steven talks about navigating his relationship with a narcissist father and a supportive mother and eventually reuniting with his biological mother. Steven talks about complex mental health challenges and how he now has found stability, peace, and love in his life (including being with his parter for the last 8 years). Thank you Steven for being on the podcast. You are a survivor and a remarkable man. I wish we could have better loved and supported you as a young gay Mormon. I’m sorry for all the needless pain. You are a good man. You story give other hope. Links: Steven’s book: https://aureusmediadesign.com/excommunication/

Transcribed - Published: 3 June 2026

My friend Amie Steele talks about her powerful new Substack (see show notes) sharing their journey (along with her husband Randy) to love and support their gay son Hunter, his decision to date men, and falling in love with Jake, and their wedding in 2025. Amie talks about walking this road with Hunter and her personal revelation to love and support Hunter and Jake. She talks about the beauty of their marriage and “by the fruits you shall know them”—and how this outcome brings them and the Steele family joy, peace, and love. Amie talks about her work as a high school special education teacher and the need for “Individual Education Plan” for her students—and how the Church’s one-size-fits-all approach to marriage doesn’t have a plan/place for our gay/lesbian members (unless they feel called to be celibate or in a mixed-orientation marriage)—and is super painful for their family. She also talks about how she “can’t put this on a shelf” and wait for more understanding—as Hunter needed to get on with his life—and their family needed to love/support him. Amie then talks about her son Presley who is gay and their conversation leading up to the podcast giving Amie permission to share about Presley. She talks about how much easier it is to accept that Presley is gay and know how to love and support him because of the road she has walked with Hunter. This podcast and Amie’s Substack are super powerful. If you want to learn how to better love/support the queer people in your lives (or may come into your lives), please read/share Amie’s Substack and this podcast. Thank you Amie for being on the podcast. You and Randy have a beautiful family. Your two gay sons Hunter and Presley are good men with a wonderful future. Thanks for all you are doing to help us building Zion. Links: Substack: https://amiesteele.substack.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amie.j.steele Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/amie_steele_/ Episode 626: https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-626-hunter-steele-gay-byu-student-and-amie-steele-supportive-lds-mother

Transcribed - Published: 31 May 2026

My friend Greg Prince (writer, scientist, businessman, philanthropist—see bio at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Prince) joins us to talk about his book “Gay Rights and the Mormon Church: Intended Actions, Unintended Consequences” released in 2019. In this episode, Greg talks about the future—and what might be possible for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints. Greg talks about the process for other significant changes in our church and also shares thoughts on doctrine vs policy vs teachings. Thank you Greg for being on the podcast and all your efforts to bring more understanding and support for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and their families. Links: Greg’s Book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08P7Q8QZB

Transcribed - Published: 28 May 2026

My friends, Jeff McLean (same-sex marriage, nationally known performer, vocal coach, author), Michael McLean (famous LDS songwriter, composer, playwright) and Jeff’s friend Dr. Brad Reedy (Co-Founder and Chief Clinical Officer) join us to talk about their new book: “Stay in the Room: How a Gay Son and A Mormon Father Found Themselves and Each Other” In the podcast, they talk about how “Stay in the Room” tells the true story of a boy raised in Heber City, Utah, in the shadow of Mormonism and the rising AIDS crisis of the 1980s. The son of Michael McLean-Mormonism's answer to Billy Joel, Jeff sang his father's songs on stages nationwide. But behind the curtain, he struggled to reconcile his faith with his identity. After serving a Mormon mission, entering a brief marriage to his husband, and battling an addiction to crystal meth, Jeff finally found solid ground-and the courage to come home. But before healing could begin, he had to confront the two people he feared had lost him for good: his parents. Told through three voices, “Stay in the Room” is a moving, multi-perspective memoir. Jeff shares how he discovered a life where he could be fully himself and still feel the love of God. Michael recounts how the Spirit led him to stay present through his son's pain, refusing to let go. And therapist Dr. Brad Reedy offers powerful insight for families navigating the tension between faith, identity, and unconditional love. This is one of the best episodes we’ve ever recorded.. Please listen and share this episode and buy their book. Great insights on how to love and support people we love in our lives. Thank you Jeff, Michael, and Brad for being on the podcast. Links: Stay in the Room Book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1969935057

Transcribed - Published: 24 May 2026

My friend Kelsey Well (who was on Episode 815) joins us to update her story. Kelsey (former EFY counselor and seminary teacher, active Latter-day Saint)—who broke off an engagement to a man realizing it wasn’t right which she talked about in her prior episode—talks about falling in love with Christina and their upcoming marriage. Kelsey also shares their desire to remain active members of their ward. In this episode Kelsey talks about: Her relationship with God and the Church What her relationship with her fiancé has shaped the way she sees faith, love, and her future. Navigating the pressure she sometimes feels from either side to “pick a line”—either leave the Church or deny part of herself How being an active LGBTQ Latter-day Saint looks like. What she wishes church members better understood about LGBTQ people who choose to stay active in the Church. What she says to someone who feels they have to choose between being loved by God and being fully themselves. Kelsey talks about how they plan to stay connect to the Temple that they love. Once married—and no longer having recommends—they talk about to being in the temple waiting room and doing family history. Thank you Kelsey for your courage to move forward in the path that you feel is right for you. I honor your personal revelation, will walk with you, and leave judgement to our Savior as His perfect understanding. I hope and pray you and Christina are warmly received in your ward—and you feel a deep sense of belonging as you worship. Links: Instagram: @kelswayan Episode 815: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-815-kelsey-wells-mid-20s-child-of-god-gay/id1347971725?i=1000698209691 Email: behappi208@gmail.com

Transcribed - Published: 22 May 2026

In one of our bravest, raw, and most vulnerable episodes, my friend Rod Gardner (married father of 5, lives in Northern Utah, dentist, age 60) shares his story/new book called “Second Change Again: A Dentist’s Journey from Professional Success to Prison, Addiction, and Ultimate Redemption”. Rod shares how drugs became a coping mechanism to deal/escape with the anxiety/scrupulosity he experiences as a teenager. He talks about putting this all behind him for his mission and the first part of his marriage—and then how the cycle came back to escape/deal with the stress of dental school. Rod talks about how that cycle repeated itself—getting worse and worse—until almost all hope was lost. Rod talks about kneeling in prayer in the 5-person jail cell—at the end of his rope—and how that was the beginning of hope/peace which led to sustained recovery (back with his wife Jill, family, regained his dental license and practice, rebaptized). I will never forget Rod talking about praying in the jail cell (and the inmates that ended up joining him). Rod concludes the podcast talking about his love and support for his queer son Kaden and his partner—the first time they came to the home—and his how his heart was full of love, a big hug, and support for both of them. Rod talks about his mighty change of heart from his earlier years to where is his now to love all of God’s children. Super powerful podcast. I encourage everyone to listen/share this episode and read Rod’s book. If you are in a tough spot—feeling alone and losing hope—please listen and share Rod’s podcast/book. Thank you Rod for your courage to share your story. You give all of us more hope and help us better understand God’s love for each of us. You are a good man. Links: Rod’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rod.gardner.509 Rod’s IG: @ rodneyg21 Rod’s E-mail: rodneytgardner@yahoo.com

Transcribed - Published: 19 May 2026

My friend Wilson Privado (BYU Master’s Degree in school psychology, BYU-Idaho undergrad, RM Salt Lake City Mission, Queer, Age 29) joins us to share his story. Wilson talks about pushing down his same-sex attraction before his mission, during his mission and after his mission—and trying to make it work with a girl. Wilson eventually concluded—as he couldn’t make it work with a woman—“no happy ending for me” with led to sadness and depression. Wilson talks about a powerful experience in the Temple seeing a rainbow on his hand—and the personal revelation that his Heavenly Parents love him including his queer identity—and how that brought him so much peace and removed shame. Wilson then talks about “teach me with I need to know about myself” and how having “the test isn’t having same-sex attraction, but will you stay with the Savior”. Wilson talks about the UVU LGBTQ Institute class and associated activities (around 100) and how helpful that is to Wilson to feel belonging, support, and staying close to Jesus. Wilson concludes with a personal message to closeted LGBTQ youth. Thank you Wilson for being on the podcast. You are a good man—with many gifts to life and help others. I encourage everyone to listen and share this episode. Links: Instagram @wilsonprvado

Transcribed - Published: 17 May 2026

My friend Greg Prince (writer, scientist, businessman, philanthropist—see bio at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Prince) joins us to talk about his book “Gay Rights and the Mormon Church: Intended Actions, Unintended Consequences” released in 2019. In this episode, Greg talks the legal efforts of the Church to stop same-sex marriage starting in Hawaii (1990), Proposition 22 (2000) and Proposition 8 (2008) in California, and other efforts—and the “Unintended Consequences” along the way. Greg takes us behind the screens to understand the Church role in and arguments against same-sex marriage—arguments that end up not being empirically defendable. Stung and surprised by the backlash against the Church for its role in Proposition 8, Greg shares the stories of reconciliation between both groups—and how that led to the Church’s support for LGBTQ+ non-discrimination protections in Utah regarding housing and employment (SB296 in 2015). Greg talks about the Church support in 2023 for the Respect for Marriage Act—sending a General Authority Seventy for the signing of the bill at the White House. I believe it is important to understand the church’s efforts against same sex marriage—and its ultimate support 32 years later for the Respect for Marriage Act. It helps me understand the needless pain for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and their families largely driven by the culture and fearmongering of the day—and to also open our hearts and minds to future efforts to better support them. It also causes me to consider targeted groups today—like our LDS transgender friends—and not wanting to fall in the same pattern. Thank you Greg for being on the podcast and all your efforts to bring more understanding and support for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and their families. Links: Greg’s Book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08P7Q8QZB Church’s support for Respect for Marriage Act: https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders/2022/12/13/23508214/church-releases-statement-amended-u-s-respect-for-marriage-act-signing/

Transcribed - Published: 15 May 2026

My friend Amy Thelin (who grew up in Virginia, served in Tahiti Papeete Mission, taught at the Missionary Training Center, and graduated from Brigham Young University) joins us to share her story. Amy reflects on the deeply spiritual experiences that led her to become active in the Church and serve a mission, motivated by her desire to help others feel the love of Christ. Amy also talks about returning home from her mission, transferring to BYU, earning a degree in Human Development, and later teaching at the MTC. She then shares what it was like to finally “take her sexuality off the shelf” and begin honestly addressing it after years of keeping herself busy to avoid it. Through prayer, scripture study, temple attendance, and personal revelation, Amy came to feel peace about her path forward—including the feeling that “dating girls is good for you.” She talks about falling in love with Melanie and the excitement surrounding their upcoming wedding in June 2026. Amy also discusses navigating these experiences while attending BYU, including both meaningful and difficult moments, as well as the grief she feels in not being able to fully participate in the Church. Amy and Melanie share their hope of finding ward leaders and church communities where they can feel loved, accepted, spiritually safe, and connected to Jesus Christ—a simple hope to “just be OK to be here.” Thank you, Amy, for being on the podcast and for the many lives you have blessed and will continue to bless. I hope for better days ahead for queer members of the Church—days where they can feel loved, accepted, needed, and valued. You are awesome, and you have a beautiful life ahead of you. Links:

Transcribed - Published: 13 May 2026

My friend Dilyn Eyerly (student at Utah Valley University, age 31, RM, active LDS) joins us to share her story. Dilyn talks about growing up and realizing she was not straight and navigating that with herself, her family and the Church. Dilyn talks about her decision to serve a mission and the suicidal ideation she dealt with and how she was able to finish her mission. Dilyn talks about “Godly Anger” and coming out “fine I’m Bi”—and how coming out (“letting people in”) helped her and her journey with the Church. Dilyn talks about not going to Church but attending the UVU LGBTQ Institute class—and how that class (and all the supportive Institute Teachers)—eventually created a desire to go back to Church and the Temple—including telling her Bishop and Stake President “I’m a Bisexual Queer Woman and I’m done hiding, especially at Church.” Thank you Dilyn for your courage to come on the podcast and share your story. You are super brave and courageous. I learned so much from you story on how to better love and support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints. You helpful me further realize that fulling owning one’s identity and having supportive people in one’s life can be the road back to the Church. You are awesome. And I wish the UVU LGBTQ Institute class could scale church-wide so more could have the love, understanding, help connecting to God/Jesus, support that are in the class. Thank you for all the UVU Institute teachers who are supporting queer Latter-day Saints. Links: Dilyn’s Instagram: @dilyndidwhat

Transcribed - Published: 11 May 2026

My friend Chad Call (late 30s, gay, former business/event executive, bridge builder) joins us to share his story. Chad talks about growing up in Kaysville Utah, serving a mission, being active in his YSA Ward, stepping away from the Church, coming out as gay and making his way forward. Chad talks about his supportive parents (Lisa and Jeff—Jeff was my missionary companion in England) and all they are doing to keep their family together including being on the front row of the Utah Pride Parade. This is a beautiful family love story—and an example on how to keep family relationship strong and healthy—even with people on different paths and different beliefs. Chad then talks about the Utah Pride Center—what the organization does—and how we can support them. Chad helped me better understand all the good that Utah Pride Center has done in our community and continued need role they provide. Please consider donating to Utah Pride Center (see show notes) and/or attending Utah Pride on June 6-7, 2026. Thank you Chad for being on the podcast. You are a good man and doing life-saving work in our community. Links: Utah Pride Donation: https://utahpridecenter.org/donate

Transcribed - Published: 10 May 2026

Our guest today is Amanda Wilkinson — speaker, author, leadership consultant, and mother of five — joining us to talk about her new book "Walking with Grace," a mother-daughter collection that brings her daughter Gracelyn to life through her own words, art, music, and soul. Gracelyn passed away at age 20 on August 8, 2024. Amanda has also lost a son, Bennett. The book weaves a beautiful story of Grace through journal entries, original lyrics, and artwork. QR codes throughout the book also link to videos and music of Grace. In this episode, Amanda shares the life and goodness of Grace — all she served through years of significant health challenges — and some of the lessons learned along the way. If you are dealing with grief — or want to better understand and support others — please buy, read, and share Amanda and Grace's book. It will give you more tools and insights into the Atonement of Jesus Christ to find hope and peace in your life and help others. This is one of the most powerful podcasts we've done on this subject. Thank you Amanda for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you. I’m so sorry Grace and Bennett are gone. I’m grateful for your work to give others hope. You are making a huge difference in our world. You are awesome. Links: Amazon: https://a.co/d/0gDcLhBk Amanda’s website: https://amandawilkinsonspeaks.com/ Resources from Grace: BYUtv interview (start at 8:32): https://www.dev-byutv.org/e9313bb2-69ee-4174-b6bf-acbd8a97128e/promptings?player-open=true&content-id=e9313bb2-69ee-4174-b6bf-acbd8a97128e Strive to Be reel: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DCjp4YFRtNt/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Gracelyn's recorded music: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gracelyn+wilkinson

Transcribed - Published: 7 May 2026

My friend Javier “VJ” Aguilar (RM, from Mexico/Texas, Age 25, Current BYU Student) joins us to share his story. Javier talks about his journey to understand his sexual orientation and come out to family in a culture that is very different from the United States. Javier talks about the difficult conversations with his parents raised in a culture where this is compared to additions that can be “cured”. Javier—who has grace and loves his parents—talks about his journey to accept/love himself, find hope during deep depression, and find support. Once Javier removed the shame and accepted himself, he talks about his desire to help others—from a deep place of love. He talks about leading the Rexburg Pride parade and also start a podcast. The podcast focus is queer LDS stories where English is a second language. Javier talks about their work to name the podcast—finally ending up with “One More Seat at the Table”. Love this name! Please listen/share this podcast and connect with Javier’s podcast (see show notes). Thank you Javier to being on the podcast. You are brave and your work (along with your friends) is so needed in our community. Links: Javier’s Instagram: @vj_ag00 Podcast on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/un-lugar-m%C3%A1s-en-la-mesa/id1821754247 Podcast on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/25J076HVloGCw7PADv10v5?si=DEm_xgz7SNq2V1zMXpFV4w

Transcribed - Published: 5 May 2026

My friend Stephanie (early 50s, active LDS) joins us to bravely share her story: Abuse survivor, early trauma Attempted suicide survivor Disfellowshipped Understanding and solving addictions Same-sex attraction Journey being active, not active, and now active in the Church Deep testimony of the Book of Mormon and God Stephanie frames her life story in music albums she has produced: “We Were Light Once Weren’t We” “Whisper To The Trees” “Still True” “The Long Way Home” The Mountain Moved (single)” Stephanie is one of our bravest guests—bravely sharing her story to help others walking difficult roads—and giving us all better insights to help others. Thank you Stephanie for being on the podcast. You are awesome. Links: Aurora Driftworks Albums: Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/3YsYnjjb1z6RkNqSQAkyJS?si=beygMf0gT0OyaFMCfHltOw Apple Music: https://music.apple.com/mx/artist/aurora-driftworks/1865623115 Aurora Driftworks on YouTube: https://music.youtube.com/channel/UCJz02CqrcO0QfPKf4j_DZpA

Transcribed - Published: 3 May 2026

**Note: In this episode, Emily talks about being blind. In her prior episode (877), Emily talked about being a Lesbian** My friend Emily Groves (student at Boise State University, doubling in bio and computer science, active LDS) joins us to share her story. This is a physical disability—not a intellection one About her disability Two approaches to disability (medical and social) The treatment of disabled people (Pity, Honor, Incompetence) The temple Disability isolation Disability vs sexual orientation Cure culture Tips of interacting with disabled people Thank you Emily—I learned so much from you! I encourage everyone to listen and share this podcast to better support our disabled friends and family members. Honored to have you on the podcast, Emily. You are a remarkable person! Links: Emily’s e-mail: emilygroves00@gmail.com

Transcribed - Published: 1 May 2026

My friend Greg Price (writer, scientist, businessman, philanthropist—see bio at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Prince) joins us to talk about his book “Gay Rights and the Mormon Church: Intended Actions, Unintended Consequences” released in 2019. In this episode, Greg talks the history of the Church approach to homosexuality—going from the behavior model (it’s a choice) to *mostly* the biological model (it’s not a choice). Greg’s book documents when the Church started talking about this (1960’s), what was said, the impact, and how we have gradually moved to where we are today. Greg talks about these painful chapters (including when just identifying as gay would get your excommunicated and expelled for Church schools). To understand the road our LGBTQ members and their families are walking, I believe it is important to understand where we have come from—which is sobering as we learn the reality of early days and the impact of LGBTQ members and their families. Further, I think it helps our minds and hearts be open to the need to continue to bring more understand and support—as I feel we are not at the finish line as we work to expand the boarders of Zion. Episode Two will focus on the Church LGBTQ legal efforts (starting with Hawaii in the 1990s) to where we are today. Thank you Greg for being on the podcast and all your efforts to bring more understanding and support for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and their families. Links: Greg’s Book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08P7Q8QZB

Transcribed - Published: 28 April 2026

My friends Daniel Carter and Devan Jensen join us to share the story behind the beautiful new hymn “Long Ago, Within a Garden,” with text by Devan and music by Daniel, written in 1999 and added in February 2026 to Hymns—For Home and Church (no. 1210). Daniel, who worked in the Church Curriculum Department for 27 years before retiring in 2016, opens up about his personal journey. After coming out as gay, he made the decision to resign his membership—not out of anger, but as a step toward healing and “returning to love.” He shares moving insights about his path to self-acceptance, grace, peace, and his deep respect for others. Daniel is now married to his husband, Gale, and continues to express love for his Latter-day Saint roots and community. Devan, an active Latter-day Saint who worked alongside Daniel, reflects on their friendship and creative collaboration. They share their perspectives on the meaningful process of bringing this hymn to life. Elder Gérald Caussé Plays the Piano and Speaks About New Hymn, in Versailles, February 2026 (see show notes). The podcast then shifts as Daniel shares about his decision to resign his membership from the Church—and how that was not out of anger but his path to “heal and return to love.” Daniel shares his love for his Latter-day Saint roots and his community. Daniel talks about his journey to find love, self-acceptance, grace, peace, and respect for others—incredible moving insights. Devan talks about his support for his friend and their work together to create this song. This episode is really twofold: The inspiring story of the creation of a new hymn that will bless many lives Daniel’s deeply personal journey toward hope, acceptance, and peace—and their lasting friendship Thank you, Daniel and Devan, for your music, your honesty, and your example of being peacemakers. Your story helps us stay connected as one human family. Links: Link to hymn: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/music/songs/long-ago-within-a-garden?lang=eng About the hymn: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/sacred-music-gospel-study-resource-pilot/1210-long-ago-within-a-garden?lang=eng Elder Gérald Caussé: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8Lvr2sFzDE Daniel’s YouTube on “Psalms from the Ruins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnLqw5DBApQ&list=RDbnLqw5DBApQ&start_radio=1 Daniel's bio page: https://www.danielcartermusic.com/bio Daniel’s earlier podcast (episode 299): https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-299-daniel-carter-lds-composer-and-music-department-employee-same-sex-marriage Devan’s inspiration for the hymn: https://devanjensen.blogspot.com/2016/02/long-ago-within-garden.html Devan’s earlier podcast (episode 446): https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-446-devan-jensen-latter-day-saint-media-and-publishing-association Devan’s upcoming Latter-day Saints in Publishing, Media and the Arts conference (Oct 15-17, 2026): https://ldspma.org/2026-ldspma-conference/ (use discount LISTENLEARNLOVE26 for a 20% discount)

Transcribed - Published: 26 April 2026

My friend Jeff Strong (married father of five, grandfather, former mission president, retired senior executive consumer goods) join us to talk about his new book. Jeff introduces his book with the story of his son Cale leaving the MTC and then leaving the Church—and Jeff’s desire to better understand. Jeff’s book (with a forward from Steve Young) focuses on: Conducting the largest LDS focused study on disaffiliation (20,000 respondents + interviews) About 40% of those that were active in 2000 have left the church 25 years later The “four patterns” that emerge from the data—super insightful Importance of culture—needs to nourish and create belonging—and how we can do better “It isn’t about lower standards; it’s about more love” Framing of the tension—four areas Powerful story of reconciliation with his son Cale Jeff’s book is so needed in our community—bringing the data forward and then framing it a way that gives us tools and insights to do better. I encourage everyone to read and share this book—and consider what we can do better to create the culture/belonging that Jeff’s talks about in his book. Thank you Jeff for writing this book and being on the podcast. You are making a huge difference for good in our community. Links: Jeff’s website: www.tornbyjeffstrong.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61588509745251 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tornbyjeffstrong/ Steve Young’s Root talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpMJkBbTqB0

Transcribed - Published: 24 April 2026

My friend Duane Jennings (gay, same-sex marriage, mid-60’s, RM from South Africa, Affirmation Leader for 15+ years, author “Stumbling Blocks and Stepping-Stones”) joins us to share his story including: · Journey to understand and accept his sexuality · Serving a mission · Anger and asking God about his sexuality “Told it is OK” · Got involved in Affirmation “Help people spiritually heal” · Been with his husband for 20+ years. · Friends most of the “September Six”—Lavina Fiending Anderson (died in Oct 2023) edited his book · “Stumbling Blocks and Stepping-Stones” Vol 1 and Vol 2 maybe the most comprehensive analysis of all things LDS/LGBTQ through 2016 · How to get a copy of Duane’s book Thank you Duane for being on the podcast and especially for all your work over a few decades to bring more understanding and support for our LGBTQ friends. You’ve made a huge difference for good. Honored to have you on the podcast. You are a good man. Links: Duane’s e-mail: UtahSoulforce@aol.com. Duane’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/duane.jennings.2016 Duane’s Book Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LatterdaySteppingStones/

Transcribed - Published: 22 April 2026

My friend Eli McCann (lawyer, University of Utah Law School adjunct professor, Equality Utah and The Road Home board member, married to husband Skylar, father) joins us to talk about his new book published called “We’ve Thankful for the Moisture, A Gay Guy's Guide to Mormon Faith, Family and Fruit Preservation” Thank you Eli for being on the podcast and sharing about your new book—which is a reflective book—along with some humor—on our unique Mormon culture. I encourage everyone to listen to Eli’s podcast and check out his book. Thank you to our friends at The Salt Lake Tribune and Signature Books for making this book possible. Thank you Eli for all your good work in our community to build bridges and help others. Your work brings a smile to my face. You are a beautiful family. Links: Eli’s Book at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Were-Thankful-Moisture-Mormon-Preservation/dp/B0GLSLKYRM

Transcribed - Published: 20 April 2026

My friend Josh Otani (Master’s Degree in Marriage and Family Therapy from Utah State University and a Bachelor’s in Psychology with a minor in Family Life from Brigham Young University; active LDS) joins us to talk about: * How to build a healthier tools and perspectives about the sexual part of ourselves * Untangling shame from our sexual part—not something that needs to be “covered up” * It’s beautiful, inherent, and life giving * Thoughts are part of our experience—be curious—not your identity * Agency is after our thoughts—act within our value system * Working through betrayal trauma (ourselves and our role to help others) * Developing “safety and security” in a marriage comes at a price—the price of being vulnerable * Discussion of how to create a culture of vulnerability * Being a peacemaker—fresh perspective This is a super powerful episode to talk sexual shame and how to develop better tools and perspectives to do better. I wish I had listened to a podcast like this a long time ago—before becoming a parent and in my church assignments. I could have done such a better job to help reduce shame and a much more positive perspective on their road to recovery. Thank you Josh for being on the podcast. You are doing much good in our community. You give me hope. Links: For anyone who would like to connect, feel free to reach out or schedule a 20-minute consultation through the following: Website: https://bigvalleytherapy.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bigvalleytherapy/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@big.valley.therapy?lang=en Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61578825803249 Psychology Today: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/porn-addiction-betrayal-trauma-josh-otani-sandy-ut/1252682 If you’re a church leader, please don’t hesitate to reach out if you’d like me to come speak with you personally or present to a group (youth, Elders Quorum, etc.).

Transcribed - Published: 17 April 2026

My friends Andy and Stephanie (LDS parents of 4; living in Vancouver, Washington) join us to share their story. Andy starts with the talk he gave in Church using the line “other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation” from the Family Proclamation to talk about how to better love and support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints. It is a powerful talk—one of the best I’ve heard on addressing this important topic—using church leader quotes, Christ teachings, and church resources. Andy received only positive feedback on the talk. Stephanie and Andy then have a discussion around the process to write the talk and things they are doing to be allies in their circle of influence (including starting a local gathering group) to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and those who love them. If you are looking to talk about this subject (in church, family, etc) please listen to and share Andy’s talk. It will give you tools, insights, and church quotes to talk about this subject. And if you are LGBTQ, I believe Andy’s talk and the work Andy and Stephanie are doing will give you hope. Thank you Andy and Stephanie for being on the podcast and all you are doing to create Zion. You give us all hope. Links: Lift and Love Gathering Groups: https://www.liftandlove.org/gatherings Life and Love Gather Conference (Nov 2026): https://www.liftandlove.org/gather Church Resources You May Not Know About Podcast with Barry Donakey, All Out in the Open S7 E48: https://youtu.be/7Nqs3mk5ZyY?si=-DjlM449wWbSOX6K

Transcribed - Published: 14 April 2026

**Note: In this episode, Emily talks about being lesbian. In a future episode, Emily talks about being blind** My friend Emily Groves (student of Boise State University, doubling in bio and computer science, active LDS) joins us to share her story. * Journey to understand and accept being lesbian * Break from religion * Coming back to religion—super powerful experience with God confirm she is lesbian * Coming out to her Patriarch prior to her Patriarchal blessing (positive experience) * Coming out to others—possible family reactions * How her feelings about the church vacillate—but trying hard to make it work—loves being in the Church * Work to find/accept her path and grace for others choosing a different path * Probably will marry a woman someday * Open to serving a mission, open to getting endowed—and thoughts around these two decisions Thank you Emily for your courage to share your story. You are awesome—and wise beyond your years. Honored to have you on the podcast. You story and insights help all of us better love, understand and support others. You have a great life ahead of you! Links: Emily’s e-mail: emilygroves00@gmail.com

Transcribed - Published: 11 April 2026

My friend Gabby Rich (Brazil RM, BYU-Idaho graduate, day care teacher, from Anacortes, Washington) joins us to bravely share her story: * Grew up “goody 2 shoes” Mormon * “Shame cannot survive being spoken” * Kissed her last mission companion * Chose not to take the sacrament day of her mission homecoming * Believed she was straight—dated guys * Strong interest in a guy who “would be the answer to all my problems” * Broke off relationship—downward spiral of anxiety * Finally accepted being attracted to girls * Started to come out (some good and some not so good responses) * "Was still valuing others’ perceptions of me—versus living authentically" * UVU institute class for queer members—super helpful in her journey * Parents became great allies * Started dating girls—everything clicked * Wants to “find a girl who would share my same desire to maintain a relationship with Heavenly Father and works to becoming more Christlike” * Helpful advice received from others * Hopes for the future Thank you Gabby for your courage to share your story. I learned so much from you. Your brave/honest/vulnerable story will help others believe God loves them and find more hope. You are awesome. You have a great life ahead of you! Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/gabrielle.rich.73 Instagram: @richgabrielle

Transcribed - Published: 8 April 2026

My friend Magnum Davis (High School Senior/Utah County, out to family/friends for over 3 years) joins us to bravely share his story: * Painful Jr. High Experience—always being asked if he was gay * Mom’s support during these years * Starting to come out in early High School years—“felt freeing” * Coming out to entire family—“each time I told someone, I grew” * Great family support over the years * Believing can’t be gay and Mormon—initially felt like he had to choose one * Dating boys—keeping communication open with parents * Difficult Bishop experiences—but giving grace * Breaking point—“I had to break for God to build me into something better” * Seeing and working through deep rooted shame—helpful therapists * Love conquers everything * Love he feels from his Heavenly Parents and his Savior * “Being gay is a spiritual gift” Thank you Magnum—one of our youngest guests—for being on the podcast to share your story. Respect for your courage to share your story out of a desire to help other feel hope. Your story helps so many. You are a good man with a wonderful future. Links: Instagram: @magnummiles

Transcribed - Published: 6 April 2026

My friend Soren Neilsen (age 21, Sacramento California RM, from Michigan, University of Utah student) joins us to share his story: * Realizing he was different—not attracted to girls * Working through internalized homophobia and shame * Hurtful things said about gay people while growing up * Coming out to Bishop (good experience) * Gay LDS friend—friend throughout his mission—offered love, acceptance, and support * Decision to serve a mission * Coming out to both mission presidents (generally good) * Coming out to companions and generally the whole mission (generally good) * “God wants me to use my sexuality to help others come unto Christ” (I thought I could add that there is unity in our differences) * Deep testimony of our Heavenly Parents and our Savior—and His atonement (D&C6:36) * Personal revelation * Feeling his best path forward is to marry a man and build a life/family together with Christ as the foundation Thank you Soren for being on the podcast to share your story. You are brave. Thank you for helping so many people come unto Christ during your mission and for the many lives you blessed. Love your testimony/love of Christ and how He wants to help all of us. You are a good man with a wonderful future. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Instagram: @sojonie1 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/soren.nielsen.632826

Transcribed - Published: 2 April 2026

My friends Kade Smith (age 38, lives in San Diego, married to husband Chris for 9 years) and Terri Smith (LDS married mother of 4 sons) join us to share their story. I’ve been friends with the Smith family as we lived together in the same Sandy neighborhood from about 1993-1998. Sheila and I love the Smith family. Kade shares: * Coming out at Age 18 * Moving in San Francisco and being groomed into an abuse relationship. Was vulnerable and need validation * Becoming HIV positive—told his Mom * Going “all in” with the gay community—needed belonging * Abuse, drug and alcohol addiction—suicidal, called Mom from his balcony—drive back to Salt Lake City * Long road to sobriety—being “loved back to life” * Role of Heavenly Father and Kade’s Savior Jesus Christ to help him * Importance of the Word of Wisdom * Belonging withing the sober community * Helping others. Moving forward Terri shares: * Challenges of parenting an adult child with drug/alcohol challenges * Always loving and believing in Kade * Being there for his drive back to Salt Lake City * Love of Kade’s husband Chris—“our family would not be complete without Chris” * “I love you Kade, and am proud of your life” This is a super powerful story of Kade’s long journey to be sober and do the hard work necessary to get to this point. It is a story of survival, resilience, hope, turning to God, and courage. It is also a powerful story of a mother’s love for her dear son. Doing this podcast together is super powerful—a beautiful family love story. I encourage everyone to listen and share this episode. Thank you Kade and Terri for your courage to share your story. It will help so many!

Transcribed - Published: 29 March 2026

My friend Laurie Reese (married mother of five, one grandchild, active LDS) joins us to share her story based on a recent talk she gave in her Ward: * Story of her son Landon and her daughter Hallee coming out as gay * Hallee’s marriage ended. Mother of one. Now engaged to her girlfriend * Laurie’s support for her gay children * Loneliness as some people pull away and don’t know what to say * Melissa Inouye’s book “Sacred Struggle” and sitting in the back seat on the road to Piha * Teaching of Jesus to love those on the margins “Easier to put others in a group and then label them in a certain way and set them aside and dismiss their pain and needs” * We don’t need to use Satan’s tactics (take away agency) to accomplish God’s plan * Questions I ask myself as I better try to follow Jesus * Landon’s difficult seminary experience—how we can do better * Church leader quotes about diversity and doing better * Story of selling a home and heart dropped as a gay couple came to look at the home—and now hoping her gay children will be loved as they move into their own homes This is a super powerful episode with Laurie being honest about the pain and challenges of raising gay children—not because they are gay—but because of the lack of support and understanding for these wonderful children. If you have queer children (or want to be better prepared to raise your future queer kiddos), please listen and share this episode. And if you want better tools to love our queer friends and their families, please listen/share this episode. Thank you Laurie for being on the podcast. I was so moved with your story and spiritual insights. Thanks for all you are doing to build Zion and help everyone feel loved and a sense of belonging. Links: https://www.facebook.com/laurie.v.reese Laurie.v.reese@gmail.com

Transcribed - Published: 26 March 2026

My friend Candice Bithell (married mother of three, active LDS) joins us to share her story: Candice’s backstory Bones (her transgender son) coming out at age 13/14 Parable of the Lost Coin as her spiritual lens Powerful insights into the Lost Coin Parable to support Bones Difficult experiences on Bones journey—anger, self-harm, etc… Love as the foundation of her approach to support Bones “My love is bigger than your gender” Attending Pride Events—including bringing glowsticks—powerful experience of love and acceptance Close and loving family—beautiful family love story This is one of the best podcasts we’ve done for providing insights (both doctrinally and from a parent’s perspective) into loving and supporting a transgender child. If you are looking to better understand and support the transgender people in your life, please listen and share this podcast. Thank you, Candice, for being on the podcast and all you are doing to help us all better love and support the transgender people in our lives. You have a beautiful family. Links: Candice’s Wayfare Article: https://www.wayfaremagazine.org/p/glowsticks-and-parables Candice’s Substack: https://substack.com/@cbithell

Transcribed - Published: 20 March 2026

My friend Douglas Williams (President of the Real OCD Club and the Un Alone Club at BYU; dual-major at BYU, RM, MTC Teacher) joins us to share his journey with OCD and scrupulosity: Understanding, managing, and accepting intrusive thoughts—not a sign of worthiness Thoughts don’t have anything to do with our character Undiagnosed scrupulosity entering mission field (repeated confessions to Stake President) Difficult start to mission, medication, things got better (still misdiagnosed) Coming home from mission, going off medication, and crashing Finally got a correct diagnosis—path to healing Importance of Exposure and Response Prevention Therapy Ego-syntonic thoughts (line up with values) and ego-dystonic thoughts (don’t line up with values)—super powerful distinction Invitation to join the Real OCD Club at BYU (focused on OCD) Invitation to join Un-Alone Club at BYU (focused on solving porn use) If you are working to understand and navigate OCD in yourself or help others, Douglas’ podcast will help you. Douglas—who has a gift of great communication—does an excellent job of helping us all better understand OCD/Scrupulosity and how to solve these mental health challenges. Links: Real OCD Club at BYU on Instagram: @readocdblub Un Alone Club at BYU on Instagram: @un.alone.byu

Transcribed - Published: 17 March 2026

My friend Gracee Purcell (BYU Psychology Grad, President of RaYnbow Collective, Activist, Engaged to be Married) joins us to share her story at BYU: Why she choose BYU Advice for other queer people considering Church-owned schools Roommates (mostly positive) Interactions with BYU administration Interactions with BYU professors Work of “RaYnbow Collective” to support queer BYU students Insights on the concept of “Safe Places” Thank you, Gracee, for being on the podcast and all your bridge building work to make this world a better place. You are doing so much good in our community and have a great life ahead of you. Congrats on your recent engagement. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode. Links: RaYnbow Collective Instagram: @raynbow.collective

Transcribed - Published: 13 March 2026

** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text chat 988 ** My friend Bruce Butcher (late 50s, married father of three, active LDS) joins us in a powerful episode to share the following: Loving and accepting people in his life who are no longer in the Church “We don’t punish a man for his beliefs” Losing his wonderful son Taylor to suicide in June 2024 Taylor’s prayer “bless the sick and sad, help us to be the best versions of ourselves” Painful doctrine the Church used to teach about suicide—led to no hope Love of a mother is the most powerful force on earth Love of our Heavenly Mother is the most powerful force in heaven—she isn’t going to cut off any of Her children Excluding people is not Christ’s doctrine David Archuleta—“I’m still a fan” Being a cafeteria Mormon My apology to my LGBTQ friends I deeply loved listening to and learning from Bruce. If you are looking for more hope in your life, be more like Jesus, and love/accept people walking different roads, please listen to and share Bruce’s podcast. Thank you, Bruce, for being on the podcast. You are a good man—helping so many. I’m so sorry your good son Taylor is gone. Love Taylor's heart as reflected in the words of his prayer.

Transcribed - Published: 9 March 2026

My friend Heather Sorensen (married mother of 4; grandmother of 14, early morning seminary teacher), joins us to share her story of losing her daughter Hannah in a traffic accident at age 15 in 2013. Heather talks about the initial and continued grief of her death and how she is navigating both holding her grief and her testimony of being with Hannah again. Heather talks about a dream she had before Hannah was born and that feeling returning during Hannah’s death. She also talks about losing her son Richard at birth. Heather talks about not being active in the Church for twenty years and her journey to return to the church and the importance of creating her identity rooted in Jesus Christ and invites us to do the same. Heather talks about her son Zachary’s cancer diagnosis during home MTC, fear she would lose another child, and Zachary’s recovery and serving a mission. Heather talks about why she decided to write a book about Hannah—called Dandelion Blessings—which is Hannah’s nickname. If you are looking for a genuine/honest story of intense grief—and finding hope/peace to move forward—please listen and share Heather’s podcast and book. Thank you, Heather, for your courage and vulnerability to be on the podcast. You are helping so many! Links: Dandelion Blessings (at Amazon): https://a.co/d/0eK9OYGy

Transcribed - Published: 5 March 2026

My friend Mark White (professor, LMFT, aspiring ally, mid-60s, active LDS) joins us to talk about his new children’s book—which is focused on an 8-year-old’s decision about being baptized in the context of having two gay dads who attend church with her—and what we can do to be better allies/advocates to queer Latter-day Saints and their families. Mark shares the following: * Journey to be an aspiring ally/advocate * Clinical experience * His publishing company (Firefly Inkworks) and new book, Indigo’s Baptism * George Gerbner’s cultivation theory * The power of stories * Representation matters * To be seen * Future books * Need for all kinds of queer stories, including narratives for a book on LDS Trans and gender nonconforming persons Mark invites a discussion about how we can be a better ally/advocate (friend, parent, local leader, etc.), including asking our queer friends to let us know what they need and indicate whether we truly are an ally/advocate. The children of queer LDS parents are essentially invisible in LDS culture. Mark hopes Indigo's Baptism is a small step in increasing representation. He desires we use all the resources available to better support our queer friends. And if you are queer or have queer parent(s), Mark prays his work will give you hope as he talks about his love for and support of the queer community. Please contact him if you are interested in publishing a book or are willing to contribute a narrative to the book he and colleagues are working on that focuses on the needs and stories of current or former members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who are trans and gender nonconforming. Thank you, Mark, for being on the podcast. You are making a difference. You give me hope. Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61587754991132 Mark’s publishing company: www.fireflyinkworks.com Etsy store where you can buy Indigo’s Baptism: https://www.etsy.com/shop/FireflyInkworks?ref=shop-header-name&listing_id=4459276962&from_page=listing Instagram: fireflyinkworks Mark’s e-mail: fireflyinkworks@gmail.com Mark’s outline: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/awvy653dh8ubvi44uxcyb/LLL.Podcast-Outline.Indigo-s-Baptism.Feb-2026.pdf?rlkey=2b6fn8xxu4e37iiiqvexk6c20&dl=0

Transcribed - Published: 1 March 2026

My friend Eliza Riggs (age 22, RM/Orem Utah, UVU Student) joins us to share her story including: Great Parents, Queer Friendly Home Came out first to her Heavenly Parents—positive experience Felt lots of pressure to fit in the Church as a Bishop’s daughter, wasn’t working, difficult chapter Joined girl’s high school wrestling team—“saved my life” Youth conference and surprising thought to serve a mission Mom buying her rainbow sheets before coming out to her Being called to Orem, Utah (initial disappointment—but then powerful revelation) Great experience coming out to her Mission President Coming out to her parents—super positive Her queer identity is celebrated in heaven Thank you, Eliza, for your courage to share your story which will help so many. You are awesome. Honored to have you on the podcast. Encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode. Links: Eliza’s Instagram: @elizariggs31

Transcribed - Published: 26 February 2026

I was invited to be on my friend Tate Arnold’s show (Over___Soul) to share my story. I’ve posted that show as Episode 864 on our platform so you could listen here. Thank you, Tate, for letting me be on your show. You are a good man doing great work! Please check out and follow Tate on Instagram @Over___Soul

Transcribed - Published: 19 February 2026

In one of our most important episodes, David joins us to talk about his new book “Devout—Losing My Faith to Find Myself”. In this episode, David talks about his journey with God to find his path forward as a queer Mormon considering suicide—a path that led David to separate himself from the Church—taking God with him—and live authentically. David gives excellent advice to younger queer people and parents to better support queer kids. I conclude with some of my thoughts on continuing to love and support those that leave our Church (not making them the hero on day for staying in the church and the villain the next day for leaving) and thanking David for his many years of service in the Church and the countless lives he has blessed. Thank you, David, for being on our podcast and your courage to continue to share your story. You are one of my heroes—you continue to help so many find hope in their lives. I encourage everyone to listen/share this episode and consider what we can do to better support our queer friends. Links: David’s New Book “Devout”: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FJJGJSB6 David’s Book Event in SLC on Feb 24th, 2026: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/david-archuleta-devout-tickets-1981202876135?aff=oddtdtcreator#location David’s Facebook: www.facebook.com/davidarchuleta/ David’s Instagram @davidarchie David’s TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@davidarchie David’s Twitter: x.com/DavidArchie David’s YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UC75d1FNP1qR0lCY1usRKQEw

Transcribed - Published: 15 February 2026

My friend Tate Arnold (married father of two, active LDS) joins us to share the following: * Difficult chapters including his father-in-law Paul dying by suicide * Needed a different path forward-choosing a "path of transformation" * Positive/life changing experience with psychedelics * Helped him "not pass down trauma to future generations" * Remade his career to be "aligned with eternal soul" * Life work around helping people be aligned with how they are * Love of and support for his transgender sister and the queer community including his former companion Matt Easton * Why he stated "Over____Soul" It is an honor to have Tate (who is a dear family friend and missionary companion to our son Matt in Sydney Australia) on the podcast. He is an "old soul" with incredible insights into how to love and support others. If you are looking to find more peace and hope in your life, please listen to Tate's podcast and connect with his work-work that is so needed in our community. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this podcast. Thank you, Tate, for being on the podcast. You are a good man and give me hope for the future! Links: Tate's Instagram Account: @Over____Soul Tate’s YouTube: https://youtube.com/@tateoversoul?si=9qq2CSPf81im35Nc Tate on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3nskaZAhU39wHS7MHCGhM0?si=hXFVo9UbQ4-dLRAaLTMSHw

Transcribed - Published: 13 February 2026

Club Officers (Douglas Williams, Madi Davis, Bohin Tenney and Brandon Pattillo) from a club at BYU (called The Un-Alone Club) join us to talk about their club's efforts to help themselves and others have better tools and support to solve porn use. In the podcast, each club officer shares their own experience with pornography usage and what has helped them to better understand their porn use and better tools/support for recovery. If you are working to solve porn use in your own life or better tools to help others, please listen to and share this podcast. And if you are a BYU student looking for support, please check out/join their club (see show notes below). Thank you, Doug, Madi, Bohin, and Brandon—you are some of my new heroes. Your courage to share your story and create a safe place for others is making a difference for good in so many lives. Links: Instagram Account: @un.alone.byu E-mail: lovebetter@byu.edu Madi Davis earlier podcast: https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-622-madi-davis-byu-student-bravely-shares-her-journey-to-solve-porn-use Madi Davis “Sisters on the Front Lines Podcast”: https://rss.com/podcasts/sistersonthefrontlines/ “7 Tips for Solving Pornography Use Liahona Article”: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/10/young-adults/7-tips-for-overcoming-pornography-use Chapter from Richard Ostler’s Book about Solving Porn Use: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nrfb3jzluzrj2sp8ihrfo/Chapter-4-Ending-Pornography-Use.-Listen-Learn-and-Love-Improving-Latter-day-Saint-Culture.pdf?rlkey=dqxcrtvxcmu6u3ppkig3kh82p&dl=0

Transcribed - Published: 9 February 2026

My friend Rev. Jamie White (Pastor at First Presbyterian Church of Salt Lake City, theological/pastoral education from Vanguard University and Princeton Seminary, married mother of three) joins us to share her story including: * Being raped at age 18, becoming pregnant, keeping her child—now her eldest son/recently married * Feeling her life was ruined. No hope. Deep anger. Could have killed her abuser * Writing letters to her unborn son * The support that saved her; parents and faith community, and her mom's tough advice * Therapist jolting comment: “This tragedy must become your greatest treasure.” Initial anger at this comment—but became true. * Hard work to find peace and forgiveness—loving your enemies. * Finding her husband Dave—and building a life together. * Creating space in her congregation for diversity rather than uniformity, tough work but worth it * Acceptance and love of queer members of her congregation—including the story of a thriving transgender member. If you are looking for hope/healing from difficult experiences (or better tools to help others), please listen and share this episode. Jamie brings a rare combination from her academic background, profession experience, love of Jesus, and her personal story of being a rape survivor to authentically help each of us overcome difficult experiences and find more hope, peace, healing and forgiveness. This is a super powerful podcast. I encourage everyone to listen and share with others. Links: Paster Jamie White Bio: https://www.fpcslc.org/staff Faith Matters/One America Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yLO12ykbCU First Presbyterian Church Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@fpcslc

Transcribed - Published: 4 February 2026

My friend Dr. Ben Bailey (PhD from BYU in Psychology currently working at UVU as a Mental Health Therapist) joins us to talk about things close to his heart and work as a therapist to bring more hope and understanding, reduce divisiveness, and bring us together as the same human family including: * Nonviolent Communication (NVC) as a framework to become a better peacemaker * Moving from judgmental thinking into a language of feelings and needs * Understanding differences in others by understanding their needs * How to talk across difference with people who have different opinions than us about the rights of LGBTQ individuals * Distinguishing empathy from agreement (understanding someone does not require endorsing their beliefs) * Prioritizing safety before connection * A more compassion focused approach to understanding pornography use * Normalizing and having a better approach to doubt Thank you, Ben, for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you on how to feel better about ourselves and bring us together as the same human family. I also appreciate your work as a therapist and all you are doing to love, help, and give hope to others. Links: NVC Book: https://nonviolentcommunication.com/product/nvc/ Center For Nonviolent Communication: https://www.cnvc.org/ The Return of the Prodigal Son: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/122877/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-by-henri-jm-nouwen/ My Music Links: https://linktr.ee/benbaileymusic

Transcribed - Published: 28 January 2026

My friend Dr. Ben Bailey (PhD from BYU in Psychology currently working at UVU as a Mental Health Therapist) joins us to talk about things close to his heart and work as a therapist to bring more hope and understanding, reduce divisiveness, and bring us together as the same human family including: Nonviolent Communication (NVC) as a framework to become a better peacemaker Moving from judgmental thinking into a language of feelings and needs Understanding differences in others by understanding their needs How to talk across difference with people who have different opinions than us about the rights of LGBTQ individuals Distinguishing empathy from agreement (understanding someone does not require endorsing their beliefs) Prioritizing safety before connection A more compassion focused approach to understanding pornography use Normalizing and having a better approach to doubt Thank you, Ben, for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you on how to feel better about ourselves and bring us together as the same human family. I also appreciate your work as a therapist and all you are doing to love, help, and give hope to others. Links: NVC Book: https://nonviolentcommunication.com/product/nvc/ Center For Nonviolent Communication: https://www.cnvc.org/ The Return of the Prodigal Son: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/122877/the-return-of-the-prodigal-son-by-henri-jm-nouwen/ My Music Links: https://linktr.ee/benbaileymusic

Transcribed - Published: 24 January 2026

My friends Rhonda Monson (married mother of three, recently returned senior missionary, LGBTQIA ally, therapist, life coach, and retreat facilitator) and Dakota Moses (gay, age 30, married to his husband Tyree for 8+ years, deeply spiritual) join us to share their story. Dakota starts and shares with us his journey being gay and LDS (and out before the age of 12) to his parents and his local leaders. Dakota talks about how he was not “permitted to be himself, or even be” and painful church experiences along the way. Dakota talks about doing everything he could to serve a mission but how that dream eventually shifted—and the deep spiritual impressions along the way. Rhonda (whose former husband is gay) talks about her love and support of Dakota and how she is both an active Latter-day Saint and loves the LGBTQIA people in her life. She talks about her wonderful son Dakota and his husband Tyree and her love of them, the good men they are, and keeping the family circle together. They talk about a new podcast they have started together called “I’ll Walk With You”. Please check out and share their podcast. Thank you, Rhonda and Dakota, for being on the podcast. You two inspire me. Thanks for making this world a better place. Honored to have you on the podcast! Links: I’ll Walk With You Podcast: https://illwalkwithyou.buzzsprout.com/2572731 Rhonda’s Therapy Practice: https://yourjourneyservices.com/

Transcribed - Published: 19 January 2026

** This podcast talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat 988 ** My friend Gordon Laws joins us to talk about supporting Dave and Kimi Martin when they lost their transgender son Levi to suicide in Dec 2022. Gordon talks about Levi—a bright, capable, curious young man—and the difficult journey he walked having Swyer Syndrome and being transgender. Gordon talks about the valiant efforts of Dave and Kimi to support their son. Gordon talks about the immediate days after Levi died and his role to minister to the Martin family—including writing his obituary and eulogy. Gordon talks about ministering principles to support others in their time of crisis/need—principles that help us all do better. Gordon talks about how the Savior ministers to those on the margins and invites us to better understand, love, and support transgender people. Thank you, Gordon for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode. Levi’s Eulogy: https://www.instagram.com/p/CqI2JAKpZWJ/ Sanctuary Documentary: https://sanctuarydoc.com/ Levi’s Obituary: https://www.d-mfh.com/obituary/Levi-Martin Episode 631 (David and Kimi Martin): https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-631-dave-and-kimi-martin-transgender-son Gordon's Irrentum Article (fictional story of Levi's premortal interview with God): https://irreantum.associationmormonletters.org/_20-1-i-can-take-or-leave-it/

Transcribed - Published: 12 January 2026

My friend Stephanie Roach—who is married mother of two special needs children age 24 (daughter) and age 22 (son)—joins us to share how we can better support friends and family members with specific needs. In the episode, Stephanie talks about the following: 1. Historical treatment of individuals with special needs 2. Geraldo Rivera’s documentary 3. Improved laws and understanding—often led by special needs folks 4. Utah Parent Center—great resource 5. Insights and examples on how we can do better 6. Suggestions from her daughter I learned so much from Stephanie about how to better support the special needs people in my life—I wish I had listened to this episode decades ago. Stephanie is also the person who suggested the name of our podcast “Listen, Learn and Love” about 8 years ago. I will be forever grateful to Stephanie for her help. Thank you, Stephanie, for coming on the podcast. Your family is awesome. I encourage everyone to listen and share this episode. Links: Utah Parent Center: https://utahparentcenter.org/

Transcribed - Published: 4 January 2026

My friend Alex Cutini joins us to share his story: Alex Cutini grew up Catholic in Brazil, sensing early on that he was different from the other boys. At 18, his search for meaning led him to join the LDS Church, serve a mission a year later in Porto Alegre, Brazil, and eventually move to the United States to graduate from BYU-Idaho. Beneath the surface, the strain of hiding who he was grew into profound depression and moments of suicidal ideation. Coming out meant stepping away from the church and facing the heartbreak of family members who struggled to accept him. Yet alongside that pain came grace: a deep, enduring love with his husband Matt, now married for ten years, and unexpected, unwavering support from his mission president and the missionary and family who baptized him. As both of their families slowly learned how to love more fully, Alex found his way forward—toward healing, purpose, and ultimately becoming the CEO of Encircle, where his story now helps save lives. Alex then shares the story of Encircle, now serving communities through five locations across Utah. He honors Stephenie Larsen’s original vision and courage in founding Encircle, and explains how that vision has grown into a lifeline for queer youth and their families. Encircle provides affirming clinical therapy, currently accepting new clients, alongside a wide range of free programs and services designed to create safety, connection, and hope. Together, these offerings reflect a simple but powerful mission: to ensure no young person or family has to navigate identity, mental health, or belonging alone. This is one of the most powerful podcasts we’ve ever done. Alex’s coming-out story is profoundly moving as he shares his journey from shame to self-love and acceptance—traveling from darkness, depression, and little hope to light, happiness, and a deeper capacity to help others. I wish everyone—straight or queer—could hear his story. The principles and insights he shares have the power to help us all. Thank you, Alex, for being on the podcast and for your extraordinary work at Encircle. You are making a tremendous difference for good in our community, and you are one of my heroes. And to everyone involved with Encircle—thank you. I am deeply supportive of your lifesaving work. Links: Alex’s Instagram: @alexcutini Alex's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexcutini/ Encircle's Instagram: @encircletogether Encircle: https://encircletogether.org/

Transcribed - Published: 28 December 2025

My friend Amy Watkins Jensen (teacher, writer, active LDS, founder of “Women on the Stand”) join us to share her story including: * Growing up Mormon in Chicago * Mission to Argentina—first awareness of gendered imbalance * Brother coming out as gay * Carol Lynn Pearson’s living room * Y/W LGBTQ service project * Backstory starting “Women on the Stand” * Area Presidency ending practice, heartache, letter writing * President Oak’s recent invitation on the need to do better * Best practices Any shares powerful and important principles behind the movement (which isn’t asking for doctrinal changes) including: * Aligning of practices with our doctrine (which is divine equality) * Respectfully relentless If you are looking to better support Latter-day Saint women, please listen to this podcast and connect with Amy’s work. As Amy teaches “It will help us come closer to the divine equality that is our doctrine—and part of our beautiful theology—allowing us to thrive”. Thank you, Amy, for your great work. You are making a difference. I learned so much from you—you give me hope! Links: Best practices link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Xuxe0qF_naSVfF3FifQzvv9AAQeHdzD5LU-AaZ_mlws/edit?usp=drivesdk Hope for Future practices link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19RuApg_1a-GGZYERHhvVRjI23IKPI3ooAdjUHE-gZAs/edit?usp=sharing Instagram account: @womenonthestand Substack: https://womenonthestand.substack.com/

Transcribed - Published: 21 December 2025

*Note: This episode is about my goal to reduce the tension between those who stay in the Church and those who leave** My friend Andy Newman (married father of three, Ex-Mormon, therapist, LGBTQ ally, bridge builder) join us to discuss: * Understanding/supporting your spouse that left the church * Understanding/supporting your spouse that stays in the church * What helps couple stay strong * Shares values over shared beliefs * The Gottman Method * A,C,T,S Andy’s work is more than theoretical—as he talks “in-real-life” about how this works in their marriage with examples of how he supports his wife and three daughters in their church attendance (including giving a talk at a daughter’s baptism) and the peace he has found with people he loves holding different beliefs. Andy mentions the work of Allan and Kattie Mount and their podcast “Marriage on a Tightrope”. Thank you, Andy, for bringing your clinical expertise and own personal journey to help those in a mixed-faith marriage. I learned so much from you and appreciate your voice and healing work in our community. You are a good man—glad to have you on the podcast! Links: Psychology today: www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/andy-newman-gilbert-az/974441 IG: www.instagram.com/andynewmanlpc/ TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@deconstruction_therapy Twitter: @andynewmanlpc Epsiode One: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-846-andy-newman-episode-one/id1347971725?i=1000734877746

Transcribed - Published: 14 December 2025

My friend Rebecca Mullen (lives in Colorado, master certified life coach) joins us to talk about her work of healing including: * Becoming an LGBTQ ally in her younger years * Removing shame and providing healing * Helping everyone to be their authentic selves * Loving people that Churches don’t always love/accept * Principles for managing marriage conflict * Importance and application of love If you are looking for insights/perspectives to heal and bring people closer together, Rebecca’s work will help you. Thank you, my friend Rebecca, for being on the podcast—your great heart—and all you are doing to bring us together as the same human family. Links: Rebecca’s web site (you can find her contact info, life coach work, podcast and book here): https://RebeccaMullenCoaching.com/ Outdoor Therapist episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/dk/podcast/episode-736-zak-hazlett-the-outdoor-therapist/id1347971725?i=1000645256176

Transcribed - Published: 7 December 2025

My friend Katie Searle (certified mediator, philanthropic consultant, grant writer, and mother) joins us to share her story, including: * Being raised in two homes after parents divorced (mother and her wife; father and his wife) * Going to BYU-Hawaii, part of Dr Chad Ford’s Peacebuilding Program and working at the McKay Center for Intercultural Understanding, temple marriage * Co-founding Kinfolk Magazine, adapting to the pace of a fast growing start-up Leaving the Church (LGBTQIA+ issues/feeling uneasy with messages that harmed people she loves, valuing authenticity over obedience, developing own moral compass) * Moving to Copenhagen and heartbreaking loss of a baby son Leo, at 5 months pregnant; the isolation of grieving abroad without community * Becoming pregnant again, husband coming out as gay, marriage ending Moving back to Oregon, managing heartbreak, daughter born, support from mother and her wife * Falling in love with Joe, his death on the day he was to move in, profound grief Opening heart to a new love with Matt and their committed partnership, shared life, and blended family Katie writes about grief with these powerful words: “I never sought to be an expert in grief and loss, but that is where my life journey has taken me. In navigating two separate households as a child, a transition of faith, the losses of a child, a marriage, a career, and the sudden death of my ‘chapter two’—my soul love—I’ve become well-acquainted with the darkness of deep loss, grief, and the grit of burning resilience. I care deeply about equipping others with the ability to adapt to life’s unavoidable conflicts, trauma, tragedies and stressors. Learning to live with adversity and grief in a culture that is pain-adverse can feel impossible and incredibly lonely, but there are ways to move forward (rather than moving on), rebuild and reclaim joy. I know this, because I’ve lived it time and time again—and so can you.” Katie is also the Assistant Director of the Waymakers initiative (with Chad Ford & Patrick Mason), and planner of their conflict resolution workshop series, REPAIR. Dr. Chad Ford writes about Katie’s roll in their recent workshop to "Maintaining Love during Faith Transitions" with these words: “Katie came up next. She spoke about her own faith transition in the most vulnerable way possible. She reminded us of both the fragility of change and the bravery it takes to find truth and belonging, especially when that means making choices that ask ourselves and others to leave behind old versions of ourselves. There were tears flowing as Katie, in her own graceful way, reminded us what it means to be human.” Thank you, Katie, for your courage to share your story—which helps all of us better understand grief and more tools to help others walking this road. Thank you for your bridge building work in our community. Thanks for all you are doing to bring us together as the same human family. Links: Waymakers' next REPAIR event: Interfaith REPAIR: A multi-faith workshop on healing divides and building communities of peace, March 6th, 2026, Salt Lake City (Tickets on sale early 2026) Waymakers: https://www.waymakers.us Support Waymakers: https://donorbox.org/waymakersproject Katie Searle's website & contact info: https://katiesearle.com/ Chad Ford's Earlier Episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-847-dr-chad-ford-new-book-seventy-times-seven/id1347971725?i=1000735977230

Transcribed - Published: 1 December 2025