Betrayal Trauma Recovery

If your husband has betrayed you, figuring out how to rebuild trust in a relationship can feel overwhelming. You may even feel pressure, from others or from yourself, to help him rebuild that trust by explaining what you need to feel safe again. However, that can actually put you at risk. After all, you can’t rebuild trust for him. Trust only grows when he consistently chooses to be trustworthy. That’s why, if your husband has broken your trust and you want to feel safe with him again, it helps to pause, take a step back, and think strategically. If you need support in the process, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session to talk to others in similar situations. THREE WAYS HOW TO REBUILD TRUST IN A RELATIONSHIP 1. UNDERSTAND THE NATURE OF TRUST The first and most crucial step is to understand that you shouldn’t trust someone who isn’t trustworthy. The person who broke the trust is the only one who can repair the damage by changing their actions and demonstrating their commitment to honesty over time. 2. RESIST THE PRESSURE TO TEACH HIM HOW TO BE TRUSTWORTHY It might seem helpful to tell your partner how to rebuild trust, exactly what they need to do to earn your trust back. But giving instructions like, “text me when you’re late” or “share your location” can create a dangerous illusion of progress when he complies. He may follow your directions just enough to keep the peace without really changing. Creating a false sense of security and leaving you vulnerable to hurt again. To find out if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. 3. KNOW THAT EFFORT ISN’T THE SAME AS TRUSTWORTHINESSS The safest and most effective way to see if your husband becoming trustworthy again is to observe his words and actions over time. Here are some things to look for: Has he taken full responsibility of restoring trust without making excuses or pressuring you to reconcile? Is he consistent in his words and behaviors? Does he show empathy for the pain he caused you? Keep reading to learn more about how to move forward with clarity, even when you’re not getting answers. If you’re feeling confused about whether or not your husband is trustworthy, we’re always online to support you. Here’s our daily support group schedule. Obviously, rebuilding trust after he’s broken it is so hard, and there’s another part of this that’s just as hard. For women of faith, if you’ve been praying and praying for God to help change your husband’s heart, and it’s not happening. That can be so painful, especially when He doesn’t seem to answering prayer for your husband. So if you’re interested in hearing more about this from a faith perspective, here’s my interview with Kirby Kelly. TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO REBUILD TRUST AFTER BETRAYAL Anne: Welcome, I have a wonderful guest on today, Kirby Kelly. Kirby is an author and speaker whose book The Fabric of Hope invites listeners into honest reflection on hope and loss without shying away from the depth of human pain. Her perspective on healing is rooted on both empathy and thoughtful reflection, acknowledging the weight of betrayal, while encouraging steady hope and inner resilience. Kirby, I love that the focus of your book is on when things don’t go quite right. Our audience is interfaith and inner paradigm, so for those of you listening, we’re having a discussion of faith today and the betrayal that a lot of women feel when they’re doing everything right. They’re reading their scriptures, talking to God, and it’s not going the way they hoped. They’re wondering how to rebuild trust in a relationship with their husband and maybe, even God. So let’s start with what inspired you to write this book? Kirby: For anyone who doesn’t know who I am, hi, my name is Kirby Kelly. I’m an author, speaker, also a podcaster. We had you on my podcast so people can come over and enjoy and listen to our episode. I wrote The Fabric of Hope because I have definitely walked through different experiences in my own life of suffering, that I did not ask for. That I did not pray for. It felt like life didn’t just hand me a lemon, but chucked a couple lemons at my face. And being Christian and believing what scripture says about God being good. That was something that I had to reconcile, was the fact that this good, loving, kind, and just God would allow us to go through things that are hard. FINDING HOPE NO MATTER THE OUTCOME Kirby: As I thought about what the pattern was in my life. There were moments where there was a lot of bad. A lot of things going on in my life were difficult, but I was able to see God work miraculously, give me hope, weave redemption into those places. And although there are some seasons and situations I wish I didn’t have to go through. I’m now able to look back with perspective and see how God used all of those things for good and how he is my hope, not my outcome. When I place my hope in Jesus, there’s real redemption that I otherwise might discard and think would never be used for good. And knowing that a lot of people go through hard things or have gone through hard things, and are also trying to reconcile that, well, is God good? In answering these hard questions, I wanted people to wrestle honestly and wisely with the whys they ask, but also arrive at the same conclusion as me, of knowing, hey, God is a redeemer of all things, and we can live a life full of hope. Anne: Yeah, oh, I’m so glad you brought that up. So for me, my experience with betrayal brought me closer to God. In interviewing all the women that I’ve interviewed, for some women, it takes them farther away. So our stance here at BTR is that whatever works for you works for us. If church or religion or even God feels unsafe to you and learning how to rebuild trust is not even on your radar, you’re welcome here. HOW TO REBUILD TRUST WHEN FAITH FEELS UNSAFE Anne: So if you’re somebody who’s like, you know what, I just can’t. I just wanted to let you know that’s what this will be about. So you’re not like, I don’t want this. ‘Cause so many women, they’ve been so spiritually abused. So they’ve gone in for help maybe with their betrayal or trauma from what is, essentially hidden abuse. And their clergy has told them that they have to submit more or they have to forgive when they’re really genuinely emotionally unsafe. So for women who have grappled with that and are grappling with betrayal, and wondering, is God there? And they want God to be there, but they can’t feel him. I’ll just say one more thing from my own personal experience. After my husband’s arrest, I could not feel God at all. Not even a little bit. I prayed, couldn’t feel his comfort, couldn’t feel anything. I was just in intense distress for about nine months, wondering how to rebuild trust in God. And I would go in my closet sometimes. I would wrap a blanket around me. No matter how hard I prayed, no matter how much I studied the scriptures, I could not feel him. I knew that I would at some point, and so I continued to do it. And I remember this one night, it, I woke up in the middle of the night and for literally like maybe two seconds, I felt comfort for the first time in nine months. And it was like, okay, he’s there. I think I sat up and I was like. Was that real? Is that just me? And I felt it again and I thought, okay, everything’s gonna be okay. God knows who I am. And then I didn’t feel it again for months. FINDING HOPE IN THE PATTERNS OF GOD’S FAITHFULNESS Anne: So it was really, really hard. Just knowing that, and that women are going through this, and that some women really want to hold onto their faith even when they can’t even feel God. Can you share some things that might bring them comfort? Kirby: As you were talking, I thought of the story of Joseph. Because that’s a story of betrayal. He was betrayed by his brothers, sold into slavery, falsely accused. imprisoned, and forgotten about. This was his life over the span of decades. Yet, God ended up using it all to save the nations from a famine, These broken pieces of his life that he probably questioned if it could ever be used for anything good, ended up being the very stepping stones that led him to great purpose. In Genesis 50:20, he even says to the face of the people who betrayed him, and I’m not saying that you have to come face to face and completely reconcile with the people who betrayed you, but in Joseph’s story, he was able to look at the people who put him through what he went through and say, “Hey, what you all intended for evil. God ended up using it all for good.” Joseph’s pain was real. The betrayal that he went through was real. But it wasn’t final. That wasn’t the end of his story. God was able to redeem that situation. HOW TO REBUILD TRUST BY HOLDING ONTO WHAT IS STILL TRUE Kirby: And sometimes we don’t understand the things that we go through or what God has allowed us to go through, until later. And if you’re not getting that clarity at this moment, if you’re not feeling comfort, there are four things that I write about in my book that we can hedge our hope on, and sometimes they might overlap in certain seasons. Other times it might just be one pillar that we stand on. We can hope in the promises of God, we really can. And learn how to rebuild trust in Him. Another thing that we can hope in is his patterns, and that’s why I bring up the story of Joseph. Because maybe you’re not seeing it happen right here, right now for you, your healing, your deliverance, whatever it is that you’re praying for. We can at least look at the patterns of God’s faithfulness, that he has this pattern of redemption. Maybe it’s not always on our timeline or how we expect, but we can have that hope and that confident expectation that God, you are a redeemer you can redeem this thing too. Two other things that we can hope in is his presence, that he is with us even when we don’t feel it. That he is near to the brokenhearted and he saves those who are crushed in spirit. And then the last thing that we can hope in is his personhood. And what I mean by that is his character. If God is who he says he is. Then that means he is kind. He is just, merciful, loving. I know that our circumstances can shout at us. SCRIPTURES HELP BY GIVING EXAMPLES Kirby: Well, if you’re going through something bad, how can God be good? I know the Christianese answer that maybe you’re tired of hearing is that we live in a broken world, but we do. There are people who are operating out of their own selfishness, and they end up wounding other people.And it’s really sad and unfortunate when we’re the ones on the receiving end of that. God is not the author of evil. He’s the redeemer of it. He can actually do a good work, because we see that time and time again in scripture. We also have to understand that these people were real people, and probably didn’t have the five-year plan either. They didn’t know what God was up to. I think that can bring us to a place of, okay, if they were able to get through this, that will give me strength and hope to trust in God in my own betrayal story. Anne: Yeah, and not knowing what that resolution would be. There are so many women who have come to share their story on my podcast, and have talked about this. Many of them have ended up divorced. Many of them are in the middle of it. They don’t really know what their financial situation will be and they’re wondering, “what if I can never trust my husband again?” They don’t know how it’s going to work out, but they testify, I would say, of God’s love and that their relationship with God improved. I welcome everyone who has been betrayed to come share their story no matter what happened to them. WHAT TO DO WHEN YOU HAVE MORE QUESTIONS THAN ANSWERS Anne: I was talking to my sister, who is not a believer, and we were discussing our different views on things. And she said, “Well, you’ve never doubted.” And I thought, yeah, I have, ’cause I’ve been like, where are you, God? But actually, she’s right. I’ve never had a time where I thought, is God actually there? I know other people have, and I totally validate that, but I’ve always known He was there. And so when I couldn’t feel Him, rather than feeling abandoned, I was actually angrier. Like, I know you’re there. Why are you not talking to me? My experience has always been not so much like thinking He wasn’t there, but more being mad at Him. Like, if you can do anything, what is going on? My experience has been when I’m just totally honest with Him and tell Him how mad I am, it works out really great because He loves our honesty and wants to be there for us while we learn how to rebuild trust. Kirby: Oh, absolutely. I think we need to be honest with God about what we are feeling and experiencing, honest about our pain. I think about the biblical concept of lament. Lament is like this deep sorrowful, woeful cry. From the depths of our soul. Like you said, I feel justified in my anger, in my disappointment. I feel justified in wondering why things are going the way they are. One third of the Psalms are lament. I think that’s really telling of the human experience, because I think a lot of people gravitate towards the Psalms when it comes to dealing with hard things, needing hope. YOU DON’T HAVE TO PRETEND YOU’RE OKAY WHILE LEARNING HOW TO REBUILD TRUST IN A RELATIONSHIP Kirby: In seasons where they feel like they’re wavering or just trying to navigate something that’s super difficult and unknown to them.There’s even a whole book called Lamentations. Anne: I’m just now putting two and two together. That it’s literally called Lamentations. Kirby: This is about weeping and mourning and being like, God, what is going on? In any form of lament I’ve noticed, at least as I’ve studied the laments, because for me, three years ago, this wasn’t necessarily betrayal, but loss. My mom died. And I remember going through the laments and just being like, this is all that I feel like my heart can relate to right now is the God, why? Why are my enemies after me? And why are they pursuing me? Why is everything overcoming me? In the laments, there’s this honest pouring out of this is everything I’m carrying and feeling and thinking. But what’s beautiful about lament and also beautiful about praise, both end in hope. Praise ends in hope. A lot of the laments, they end on this high note of hope. Of declaring and remembering, okay, but you are good, this is what you have promised, this is what you have done in my life. This is your record of faithfulness. I’m going to cling onto this because I know that if you were able to bring resolution to those things, then where I’m at right now isn’t the end of the story. So to the person who’s like actually wrestling and maybe grew up in a church environment where you had to fake fine. HONEST DOUBTS AND QUESTIONS Kirby: Or you grew up in a community where they didn’t want you to bring honest questions or honest doubts before the Lord and wrestle with those things. We need to wrestle with those things and bring them to the Lord, because he’s not looking for performative Christianity. Especially when it comes to navigating the really hard human things that we go through. We don’t have to edit our emotions before we go to him. In Psalm 62:8, we are told to pour out our hearts before him. He already knows you’re feeling it and he might be thinking, well, if he already knows I’m feeling it, do it for you. When you begin that open conversation with Him, we can get to a place where we can begin to take the steps of trusting God with the situation and to see his hand at work behind the scenes. Anne: I think so many women who are experiencing their husband’s betrayal have prayed so much that many are sick of it. They’re like, this isn’t working. I pray for the same thing every day.  They’re not sure how to rebuild trust with someone who isn’t really changing. Also, they’ve been lied to about prayer. I’m gonna say true things that are also lies in this particular situation. So the true thing is God can work miracles. The true thing is God can change people’s hearts. The true thing is, God can heal people. The lie is that it will happen. And when I say that it’s not that God isn’t capable, it’s that somebody might not want their heart to be changed. FINDING THE TRUTH THAT SETS YOU FREE Anne: So then if they hear, “Pray and God will heal you,” which was true. It sounds a lot like pray and God will heal your marriage. So, you have to stay married to this abusive man. but that’s not really what God wants. The Bible isn’t to oppress us and to force us to do things that are really not good for us. It’s for us to find God’s love and to learn how to rebuild trust. Kirby: Yeah, it really matters contextually these promises that we’re reading about where a person prayed a specific prayer, they prayed for something and they got a certain result. And it’s easy for us to be like, okay, if I pray that exact prayer, if I do this exact thing, then it’s going to happen exactly like it happened for these people. Or it’s going to turn out the way that I’ve always heard it taught to me. And this is why context matters. Because I think that sometimes we can read scripture and just read one verse and end up with a misinterpretation. When I think about prayer, we’re told to ask and seek and knock at the door, and it’ll be given to you. But we’re also seeing in scripture, not my will, your will be done. So there is this dichotomy of God can do it. But will He do it? Will He do it in the way that we expect? Will He do it on our timeline? And will He do it the way that he did it for the person sitting next to you in your small group? Or the person that you just read about in scripture? HOW TO REBUILD TRUST IN A RELATIONSHIP REQUIRES WILLINGNESS, NOT JUST POTENTIAL Kirby: And that’s the providence of God, he can do anything that is within his limits of being God. But at the same time, he created man with free will. Anne: They can be in open rebellion. God could be trying to help them and they are literally like, no God , I’m not doing it. Kirby: And the whole point of that is because He created us to be in relationship, to give us autonomy, to give us choice, to actually choose how to rebuild trust in our relationships. Because love is a choice, to be in relationship, to give your heart to somebody else. God’s not going to overstep boundaries. He respects boundaries. And I’m thankful God is kind and gentle in that way. But at the same time, God can move in our lives. He’s moved in mine. I’m sure He’s moved in yours and can move in the lives of other people that we are praying for. But like you said, because he has given us that autonomy, we all have that choice. And as much as that can be so frustrating for us who are praying for the breakthrough, the miracle, or the relationship to be restored. It can be warped in a way to think, well God, you’re not good for not doing this. If he’s not changing the heart of the other person, I think a prayer that we can begin to pray is, “God, what do you wanna change within my heart? What do you wanna change within my prayers? What is something different or new that you want to do, that you want to reveal to me to start praying for?” RELEASING EXPECTATIONS Kirby: I mean, keep praying for it if you want to, if you feel that conviction to, but maybe there’s a new perspective or a shift, maybe it looks different, so maybe that’s something to start preparing your heart for, but that doesn’t make it bad, it’s probably going to be greater than the thing that we’re putting expectation in. We can put expectation in God to answer, move, work, redeem, but we also need to release expectation of what that might look like, especially when other people who have their own will are involved. Anne: I’m smiling because the way you describe it sounds extremely nice. For me, it’s more like, “God, I’m so mad at you.” Kirby: Yeah. Anne: You are driving me crazy. I know you can do this, and you are not doing it. Kirby: Oh, trust me. I feel that. Anne: And in that moment I’m so frustrated. Kirby: That’s real. I’ve been there too, but God is so kind that even when I’m showing up with any attitude, any anger, or any emotion, whatever it is, he’s not trying to get me to the next thing, even though I’m like, get me to the next thing. He’s like, we just need to walk right now. And there’s a lot of grace in the slow down pace of trying to heal us that often we don’t realize. Until oh yeah, You were doing something deeper in this whole situation that I ever could have thought. And He’s not an I told you so kind of God. Anne: No. MOTHER TERESA AND GRATITUDE Kirby: I’m glad you see it now kind of God. And I’m thankful for that. Anne: Yeah, and I’m like, wow, He really loves me, like literally loves me so much because I am like 98% lamentation and maybe 0.001% praise. And I don’t know what the other part is. Maybe like mild, thank you, gratitude, maybe that’s what it is. But I’m so much more lamentation than praise. So I’m happy to hear that at least that’s getting me somewhere. Kirby: Well, hey, you relate to a lot of the people in scripture. Anne: I was reading about Mother Teresa the other day. There’s a book, I haven’t read it yet, but I just read the book cover. So I don’t know what I’m talking about. But it was by a nun who worked with Mother Teresa for most of her life, and she said that Mother Teresa felt abandoned and angry with God most of her life. And she personally knew her. Not angry in a, I’m not gonna do your work kind of way, but just like, why is this happening? And I thought, oh, I need to read this book, because Mother Teresa and I, I’m not saying I’m as good as she was or anything like that, but I was like, we have some stuff in common. I relate to this and think this idea, and I’ll call it more spiritual abuse, that “righteous women,” maybe talk a certain way or look a certain way, or they wouldn’t be angry with God or they wouldn’t wrestle with some things. I think it is a disservice to women, because they don’t realize all the different options they have to interact with, because I’m Christian too, our Savior, or with God. SPIRITUAL ABUSE CAUSES LACK OF TRUST Anne: I think opening it up to realize that the maybe there’s more to our relationship with Him than the spiritually abused way of seeing Him, that people use so that you aren’t getting out of your lane. So that they could keep you in the spot they wanted to keep you in. I’m not talking about all religious leaders or anything. But, abusive men do this quite often. There are so many options than you knew to have a relationship with God, I think is really important for women who want it. They want to know how to rebuild trust. Kirby: I wanna add that for women who have gone through spiritual abuse, specifically by their husbands or ex-husbands, maybe that was even affirmed in leadership in the church. And you have this anger towards this patriarchal God. The more and more I’ve studied it, God loves his daughters, He fights for his daughters, He sees his daughters, He interacts with his daughters, he invites his daughters. And so if you can get to know God as a father, a perfect father. Not your father, not the man you married and how he treated your kids, not the father of your church. Anne: Yeah, thank you. I couldn’t agree more. There’s so many instances in the New Testament of Christ treating women in ways that were absolutely… Kirby: Ludicrous to society. Anne: Yeah, and so he was a disruptor. He was definitely not the poster child for institutional obedience. That’s for sure. I love that about Him. Kirby: You wanna know who God is? Look at Jesus. He is the word of God, the heart of God, like the Son of God walking around. Anne: Yeah, I love that. You are amazing. Thank you so much.

Transcribed - Published: 19 May 2026

If you’re typing “Celebrate Recovery near me” into Google because you’re desperate for help after discovering that your husband has been lying to you about his infidelity or his use of inappropriate material, you’re not alone. BEFORE GOING TO CELEBRATE RECOVERY NEAR ME, CONSIDER THIS: 1. Recovery Programs Only work If He’s Honest A recovery environment only works if your husband is completely honest about his behavior. Even in cases where he’s willing to attend a program, some women discover their husband takes “chips,” confesses slips, or shares breakthroughs in group without ever telling her. Not because he’s changing, but because he’s using the system to make it look like he’s changing. 2. celebrate recovery near me Can’t Fix Emotional Abuse When women search “Celebrate Recovery near me,” they often think the program will help heal their marriage by helping their husbands understand the root causes of their addiction and behaviors, especially if he seems willing to go meetings. But the root issue isn’t addiction, it’s entitlement, control, and dishonesty. Most recovery programs aren’t designed to assess or confront coercive control. So instead of getting safer, some women end up feeling more confused. Before you invest your hope in any program, you deserve to understand the full picture. To discover if your husband is emotionally abusive, take this free emotional abuse quiz. 3. Some Men Use Recovery or Language as a Shield Many women report that once their husband joined a recovery group like Celebrate Recovery near me, he just learned to speak the language of recovery without actually changing. Instead of becoming more honest, some men become more skilled at hiding, using the right words, sharing at the right times, and appearing accountable…while the underlying patterns stay the same. This isn’t necessarily the program’s fault. Recovery culture tends to take disclosures at face value. But for some men, it becomes a stage rather than a mirror. 4. If He Gets Praise in Group but You Get Hurt at Home, Pay Attention The applause of a group like Celebrate Recovery near me can unintentionally reward performance. Your lived experience matters more than his report. If his recovery looks great publicly, but privately you feel scared, confused, dismissed, or blamed, that’s a sign to step back and observe what’s happening. You don’t have to announce this to anyone 5. RECOVERY Programs Don’t Replace Betrayal Trauma Support A program like Celebrate Recovery near me often uses a model that focuses on his trauma from childhood or his triggers. They may encourage couples to build routines that reduce his stress or triggers, sometimes placing more responsibility on her to monitor or support his progress. These might be good tools for people who genuinely want to heal. But they don’t address lying, manipulation and entitlement. A woman in an emotionally abusive marriage needs support that centers her emotional safety, not his recovery timeline. 6. If You Feel Worse After the Program Starts, That Matters Many women assume feeling worse is a sign that they’re a part of “the problem,” or they need to be “more supportive.” When his patterns of behavior become a shared problem…something you’re both expected to manage…it often creates more emotional chaos for her. Her emotional safety needs to be addressed separately, not tied to how well he’s doing or how much effort he appears to be making. Feeling confused, blamed, responsible for his recovery, or pressured to forgive and move forward…is a sign something else is happening. 7. Your EMOTIONAL SAFETY COMES BEFORE HIS RECOVERY STORY If you’re searching “Celebrate Recovery near me” to save your marriage, here’s the most important thing: his recovery is not the foundation of your emotional safety. Your clarity is. It’s important to have your own support community in place that is educated in the dynamics of emotional and psychological abuse and can help you decide what you need for emotional safety. If you need support in addressing what’s really happening, and whether a recovery program can help, you can start with the Living Free Workshop or BTR Group Sessions. They’re designed to give you immediate clarity. Transcript: What Happened When I Googled “Celebrate Recovery Near Me” Anne: I’ve talked to hundreds of women who have typed things like “Celebrate Recovery near me”, or “addiction recovery program” into Google. Especially when their husband said he was an addict and he is willing to go to a program. So if he’s willing and goes to this program, it’s totally normal for a woman to think that things are gonna get better. But over the years, I’ve interviewed countless women who tell me things actually got worse. And I’m interviewing one of those women today. We’re gonna call her. Nancy. Here’s part of her story. Nancy: His coworker called me. She told me she was out with some friends. And he flirted with her and tried to pick her up. We were Going to Celebrate Recovery. He supposedly had been sober for months. Anne: We’re gonna get to her whole story, but before we do, I wanna stress that it’s important to understand that a manipulative man can use anything, a recovery program, therapy, even meeting with clergy to manipulate a woman further, and that causes a lot more harm and trauma. So before you start searching for a recovery program for your husband, it is important to consider what his recovery would be for and how abusers manipulate their victims. Most of the time, the therapist will say something like childhood wounds or addiction recovery. When really what you’re actually experiencing is emotional and psychological abuse. And I’ve even interviewed women who have tried to find an abuse program for their husband, and they still tell me the same things. So as you listen to Nancy’s story, I think it will help put into perspective what’s really going on and what steps you wanna take next. When I met him I thought he was a good guy Anne: That’s why I created the Living Free Workshop. It helps women know what’s going on, if he’s really abusive or not. Some women find out he’s not. And then what steps to take to create emotional safety in your life. It’s much faster to figure that out first, before spending tons of time and money in therapy or a recovery or Celebrate Recovery near me program. Living Free total run time is about two hours and 50 minutes, which is much shorter than three or four years to find out it’s not working. So Nancy, thank you so much for sharing your story today. Welcome, can you tell us how you met? Nancy: When I met him, he went to church. He served on the worship team, and he could talk like a preacher. So I thought he was a good guy. It was confusing, because we were play wrestling, and I wouldn’t have remembered this except I had written in a journal and I read it after everything fell apart. He held me down and said some things like, did you think you were stronger than me? Did you think I would let you go? It really scared me. I was very close to breaking up with him, but he actually cried and apologized. So I thought, he’s sorry. It’s not gonna happen again, and that sort of thing never happened again. He realized he had to be more subtle. He did tell me about his past sexual history. Mirroring my desire to serve missions Nancy: He was in the Navy and with several prostitutes. And he was honest, it felt like to me at the time. That he struggled with porn. I thought after we married, that wouldn’t be an issue. And honestly, I don’t know that anyone would’ve told me anything different. I wanted to serve in medical missions. He didn’t seem interested in this, so I prayed and left the relationship in God’s hands. I told him about how I prayed. And the next time we got together, he said, “He had been thinking and praying, and he really felt God moving his heart to missions. That everyone always thought he should be a missionary. It really blew me away, because I thought God had answered my prayer really fast. He knew that he was not only lying to me, he was also lying about God, and he chose it. Which makes him a really evil person. In pre-marital counseling, I was clear that I didn’t see myself as a housewife. I wanted things to be equal, and I didn’t plan to stop working. He acted like he was on the same page and that he was fine with this. So we married. Things were not good. In less than a year, he turned me down for sexual intimacy. Which was surprising and incredibly hurtful. Especially when I realized he was looking at porn. We went to see the movie Fireproof, and afterwards he admitted he was taking off his ring to flirt with people. I was trying to be very understanding, but I did feel hurt, and he got angry at me. He said this was the thanks he gets for staying away from porn for a couple weeks, which is not funny, but I’m laughing at the audacity. He Pushed Me to Quit Working While Avoiding Any Real Recovery or Celebrate Recovery Near Me Programs Nancy: I think I blocked a lot of it out, because somehow things were good enough back and forth between nice, the Christian thing, and when he would be not so nice. I didn’t recognize abuse. The only thing I could put my finger on was the sexual things. We never could solve how things were to be run. And now that we had children, he could step away and I would be forced to do more house duties, cooking, cleaning, et cetera. Because someone had to do all the things for the children. I would tell him what we had agreed before marriage, and he said, “Yeah, but I thought you would change after we had kids.” Anne: I said the same thing. I said, I’m not gonna cook. And he was like, no problem. Then later told me, I thought you would change. And I’m like, I was so clear. Nancy: Exactly, we’re both honest and open. It’s like, that doesn’t mean I have to change, just ’cause you thought I would change. Well, it did because we had children now that needed to be taken care of. Anne: Right. Nancy: The same thing I said, I didn’t wanna stop working.” And he would constantly try to get me to stop working. I was only working part-time. He wanted me to not have an escape route. We separated, but I was so exhausted and overwhelmed with a baby, 2-year-old, and a 5-year-old. We got back together pretty quickly. Discovering he was flirting with coworker Nancy: A year later, we separated again and went to couples counseling, ’cause I still had not seen how that was harmful. I was really hopeful, which seems funny after just like a week or two of separation. But his coworker called me and told me she had been out with some friends, and he was flirting with her and trying to pick her up. I thought this would be his rock bottom, because he’s almost lost his family. Anyway, we got back together and things were up and down. I was dealing with a lot of anger and depression, social anxiety. At the time, I thought I needed counseling to deal with my issues. We were going to Celebrate Recovery near me. His stated problems in Celebrate Recovery were sex addiction and anger. It’s so crazy knowing that, how could everybody there not believe anything I was saying? He supposedly had been sober for months because of all the addiction model stuff. We agreed that he would tell me if he ever had a slip within a certain amount of time. So at Celebrate Recovery, he went forward for a one-day chip, and that really shocked me because he wasn’t ever gonna tell me. When we agreed that he would. After that we had sex that was definitely, obviously coercive. I don’t think I had the words at the time, but I definitely felt that way because we had an agreement and he didn’t follow it. That was the last time we ever were together. He said he would throw me a 30th birthday party Nancy: I took a step back, and I was observing him because I felt like we were at the best place, and I’m actually an okay person. That means there’s nothing I’ve done wrong, literally. And there’s nothing I can do to change this. It just became increasingly clear to me. So I started looking for more information and came across BTR, but I didn’t listen to the episodes because I saw the word abuse. And thought that doesn’t apply to me. And I found a couple other podcasts. They didn’t fully explain everything, and then a really bad incident happened when I turned 30, a big birthday. Anne: They always do it on birthdays and holidays. Nancy: I know, I had always thrown him birthday parties. He’s an extrovert and that was something that he enjoyed and I didn’t mind, he didn’t throw me anything because I’m more of an introvert. So when I was going to turn 30, I told him that I’d like a birthday party and would like him to throw it for me. I said if he didn’t want to, let me know. ‘Cause it was important enough to me that I would throw it for myself. He said he would throw me the birthday party. But when I wasn’t seeing any preparations, I checked in with him. And the motions he made came across like he was planning a surprise birthday party. Anne: Like, let’s not talk about it. Or you might ruin your surprise. Nancy: Exactly, I had said, “I will throw it for myself.” I repeated that again, that time. He knew. He Claimed He ‘Forgot’ My Birthday While Pretending Recovery Through SAA and Celebrate Recovery Near Me Groups Nancy: So my birthday comes up. I expect a surprise party around any corner. I come to the end of the day and nothing happened, nothing. And his excuse was forgetfulness. Anne: I never gave you the impression I was gonna throw you a party. Nancy: Yeah, It was always that gaslighting and blame shifting. I feel like I dissociated a little bit around that time. ‘Cause it was really hurtful, because I would have thrown it for myself. Anne: And he knew that and he gave you the impression that he was throwing you a party on purpose to ensure that you didn’t have a party. Nancy: Exactly, I actually believed him that it was on accident, but that was just as hurtful. Now, I believe it was fully on purpose. At the time I was going to COSA and he was going to an SAA group. Anne: When she says COSA or SAA, she’s talking about 12-Step recovery for pornography addicts or sexual addicts. There are other programs like Celebrate Recovery near me. And the COSA is a co sex addict’s 12-Step for a wife of an addict, where she basically does the same program he does and tries to fix her character defects. Nancy: Yeah, I’d been talking about giving him another chance to throw me a party, and they said if he already didn’t do it, you should not do that. So I ended up throwing myself a party. After that 30th birthday, I would get down around my birthday every year. I ended up telling him that, not in a way to blame him, because like I said, I didn’t think he had done it on purpose. I just thought I should let him know I wasn’t myself. Recognizing Gaslighting in real time Nancy: And it was the first time I recognized what he was doing in the moment, he started to say. “That had not happened. That didn’t sound like something he would’ve done, that my memory must be a little off.” So many different ways he was trying to convince me that it hadn’t happened, and he couldn’t convince me because I knew it had happened. So he switched tactics and said that maybe he should get counseling for being abused. Anne: He’s claiming that you’re abusing him. Nancy: Exactly, I was so confused. I asked him, “Abuse, what are you talking about? Am I being abusive right now?” And he goes, “No, the abuse I’ve had to endure for the last how many years.” And then I realized oh, that was gaslighting. That’s blame shifting, and I ended up leaving the room and cried on my own. It shook me up that he could take something very vulnerable and turn it on me like that. I was talking about that incident and how he was saying I was abusive and I heard myself saying, “It was surprising he would call me abusive when he’s been so much worse.” And that was the first time I thought maybe he is abusive, and that reminded me about BTR. I thought, let me listen to that, ’cause maybe I can get some insight. That brought me back to listening to the BTR podcast. And I vividly remember I was binging all these episodes, hearing women’s stories. It felt like my life. And it just blew my mind to realize I’ve been abused this whole time. Anne: I’m so sorry. You were experiencing Betrayal Trauma and were not aware that recovery or Celebrate Recovery near me programs wouldn’t help you. Addict model says he’s struggling, he’s not in control Nancy: It made sense. It felt like everything clicked into place. Everything else I was told didn’t make sense. I always talked about stuff. I was always looking for answers. And I never felt like I was codependent or that I needed codependents anonymous. None of that stuff seemed to fit. In fact, the advice I was given, “Don’t pay attention to what he’s doing. Only work on yourself.” While they’re also saying, “Don’t be codependent, ignore what he’s doing,” which just doesn’t work. The addict model, like he’s struggling, he’s trying, he’s not in control. I mean, that’s like step one. You’re powerless to control your behavior. He accepted the addiction model early on, and we were in and out of groups the whole time. But I don’t believe now that he’s an addict, and I don’t think he even thinks he’s an addict. It’s a great excuse to keep doing what you’re doing. Because there’s no accountability, and everyone applauds your efforts. Even if you’re not reaching the goal, you actually have a choice. He would say to me that he could not promise that he would never do any of the sexual stuff again. So it was like basically just saying, I’m gonna be doing this my whole life. Anne: My ex wouldn’t promise either. He said if I promised, “I wouldn’t be on my toes. Like I don’t want to think I couldn’t do that, because then maybe I would be in danger of doing it.” Which doesn’t even make sense. Like I can legit say, I will never have an affair. finding BTR helped me wrap my head around the abuse, Celebrate Recovery near me didn’t Nancy: Right, yeah. I found BTR. And the abuse model is they have a choice, and they’re choosing to be harmful and abusive. All these years he had been a liar. I stepped back and observed behavior for me to fully wrap my head around it. I believe he feels entitled to do what he wants. He doesn’t see people as people. Or maybe it’s just women as women. Objectification is a huge thing. I don’t think he ever saw me as an equal partner or a person. And I don’t believe he ever loved me. I was a desirable object he acquired, and that was it. When I started listening to BTR, it helped me understand abuse and the subtleties of it. Because before, I had only been thinking physical abuse or yelling insults, which my ex did not do. Listening to the stories helped me see how this plays out in marriage, even in a Christian marriage. It was helpful to see the ways men could twist faith things, because many of these men and my ex are very manipulative. Like it has to slowly play out over time to see what they’re doing. And a lot of it goes back to intent, and it’s hard to see intent. It was hard for me to imagine my husband is lying to me. So that was a shift too, to start looking at actions instead of words. BTR gave me a lot of insight into what I was living through and what was helpful, especially getting into the BTR groups. Celebrate Recovery near me didn’t do that. It helps build you up so that you can go through the hard stuff. We were going to counseling around the time I started going to BTR group. Going to couple counseling Nancy: Because of BTR, I had the words for it. I was able to express better what was happening. The counselor didn’t help my situation, of course. Individual counseling and couple counseling are unhelpful, because an abuser’s goal, my ex’s goal, was not to get better. His goal is to get whatever he wants. He’ll say whatever he needs to say to get what he needs from the counselor. We’ve gone to quite a few couple counselors. We would go into a new counselor, and he would bring up a new issue. He had never told me about me. Anne: Suddenly you’re a kleptomaniac or something. Nancy: Yeah, things that he thought I did that were hurtful to him, that I had never heard of before. But I felt so bad that I was hurting him without knowing it. What a callous person I am. Anne: Not knowing he was bearing false witness and that he literally made it up. Nancy: Yeah, completely distracted from why we went to counseling in the first place is sexual issues. Like I would have to be a safe person so he could be honest with me. Because I’m an actual caring person, I would feel like this was an actual issue that I needed to fix. And that is the part about the psychological abuse that is hard to describe. Because a lot of it could sound valid, and I thought these things were valid. But later realizing they were lies. They were lies, because he would’ve said them before. Anne: Exactly. creepy experience with new counselor Nancy: We did an in-home separation, At first. His abuse escalated the freer that I was getting. I never completely stopped working. I got a job and started after the in-home separation. He actually shut off the internet. Luckily, I prepared ahead of time. I had my own phone plan with the hotspot, So I could just switch over and just didn’t even engage with him. It has been a process of combing through my life, and I have wondered that how many lies I won’t even know about or remember. Because, I believed him and he was so good at lying. One of the new things he said was I wasn’t being vocal enough in bed. It felt so humiliating for him to say that to the new counselor. When he had never said that before. This male counselor wanted us to do an exercise right then on the sofa in front of him. He wanted my ex to touch like my foot or my leg, and then slowly move closer to my private areas. And as he moved closer. I was supposed to make more and more noise. Anne: No. Nancy: Isn’t that crazy? Anne: That’s so creepy. Nancy: I did feel incredibly creeped out, and I refused to do it. Anne: Good for you. He said there would be no equality in our marriage – Celebrate Recovery near me didn’t help with that Nancy: I wish I had just walked out, But after we left, I said, “I will never go back to that counselor again.” And we never did. I said, “What I would need to continue in the marriage was for him to be seeing his own personal counselor, to have a full disclosure with a lie detector test.” Which he said no to. And I know now it wouldn’t have been helpful. Just like Celebrate Recovery near me wasn’t helpful. Anne: I know, thank goodness. Nancy: Right. Anne: Mine never did that either. And I think I would’ve just been in the abuse for so much longer had he said yes. Nancy: Right, and then the second thing I said is that, “I wanted equality in our marriage.” And he said no. Anne: He said no, he didn’t want equality? Nancy: Correct. Anne: Wow. Nancy: So I was like, then literally that’s the end of it. And I was going to BTR group. I remember one of the coaches said to me, “It was a blessing that he actually had been honest.” At the time, I didn’t understand, now I do. And I’m so glad I asked those questions. I don’t know why he was honest. There are two possibilities. He didn’t think I would leave, because I hadn’t yet. We’d been married for almost 14 years, and he was only saying what was already true. You don’t need to be perfect to be loved Nancy: I just didn’t realize it was true. Or maybe he did want me to leave. I had some conversations with his mom. Because I found BTR, and surprisingly, she said it made her realize she was in an abusive relationship with my ex’s dad. However, she still felt like I should stay. Because she felt like the Lord had taught her so much and she had grown through all these trials. I have sympathy for her, but it’s so wrong. All of a sudden it just became very clear to me that if I stayed for the kids, it was actually putting them more at risk. And honestly, that conversation solidified that I had to leave for the kids. If you’re not sure yet if your partner is abusive, Just listen to some BTR stories and see what jumps out at you. You are a worthy human being that does not have to be perfect to be loved and treated with respect. Reconciliation is not necessary for forgiveness, and you don’t have to forgive anyone. It’s more of a process that can happen on its own time, and no one should force it. Pay much closer attention to someone’s actions over time than the words they say. And it’s never too late to make different choices when you learn or understand new information. I feel like having to make a choice that is wildly unpopular with people around you. Church, that I had to learn in a new way. Maybe for the first time, to not let what people thought about me affect the decisions that I make that part has been really hard because a church we were going to was not supportive at first. Call from somebody in Celebrate Recovery near me group Nancy: Some of them seemed supportive, and even the ones I thought were supportive, in the end weren’t. I actually got a phone call from somebody in my Celebrate Recovery near me group. She called me up to ask me if I was seeing a counselor. Because I still seemed angry. I was speechless, of course I’m angry. Anne: Yeah Nancy: I didn’t even know how to respond to her. I just told her yes, I’m in BTR group and got off the phone. There’s nothing wrong with being angry about the situation. I feel like church tells women they shouldn’t be angry. But Jesus was angry. There’s nothing wrong with being angry. Anne: Yeah, I feel like if you’re not angry, something’s wrong. Nancy: Right. Anne: I mean, nothing is wrong with you. You might be numb, you might be sad. I went through periods where I wasn’t super angry. I was just really depressed, but on the whole oppressed, abused, exploited people, their anger is from God to help liberate themselves from the oppression. But of course, the abuser does not want you to liberate yourself. He said flat out he didn’t want you to be equal. That is infuriating. Nancy: And now he wanted 50/50 custody. It was very upsetting, because my ex had been very non-helpful around the house and with the kids. It was hard to think that he would want 50/50. Anne: But of course he did. Nancy: I didn’t see that coming, and I wish I had been more prepared and could have been more strategic. Listening to him lie in the courtroom Nancy: I could not wrap my mind around that at the time. I had seen more and more abuse as my eyes were open. So I couldn’t wrap my mind around 50/50 custody. I was under the delusion that justice was in the court system. I found out, even though I know he lies, it was a big shock to listen to him lying in the Courtroom. It’s hard to witness. It’s something I wish I had processed before, because I’m sure that was pointed out to me. But I couldn’t process that as a reality back then. The Living Free Workshop was so helpful. And going to group and getting help constantly. The Living Free Workshop is so different than anything you’ve ever been taught. I don’t know how I would’ve made it through this, honestly. That was another thing that was really helpful. There were some scripts in Living Free to get him on Our Family Wizard, and he actually got on it easily. I was surprised. I didn’t think he would get on as easily as he did, and just not responding in any other way. Anne: That’s the thing, they’re desperate to talk to you. With the workshop, everybody says, how am I gonna make him go on OFW? And if you do the script and stick to it and do not deviate. Legit, don’t deviate. Once you’re on Our Family Wizard, literally block him on your phone, so he has no other way of contacting you. He is desperate to get your attention and your belief, like Living Free says, yeah, they’re so transactional. And if you respond through Our Family Wizard, he will find a way to do it. he performs for others in groups like Celebrate Recovery near me and in court Anne: They’re like, well, this is what I gotta do to talk to her, because I’m blocked otherwise. They will move. It might take a month. I’ve had it take the longest six weeks with one woman that I was working with. Every single time he texted, she said, “Hey, I’ve responded on Our Family Wizard.” Nancy: Right. It felt overwhelming, because he kept sending me long, manipulative messages, but I responded on Our Family Wizard. It only took me once for him to switch. Being on OFW was better. Oh, one of the books BTR recommends, The Woman They Could Not Silence. I read it and that was awesome. It helped open up my mind to spiritual abuse. It’s been inspiring to me this whole time. What she went through being separated from her children. That book has been really inspiring. The thought of leaving them with him, terrifying to me. We went through two rounds of court. He would make it sound like I was controlling and not letting him do things. Like why wouldn’t I let him take the kids to half of the doctor’s appointments when he never came to a pregnancy appointment? And same with field trips. He’ll go on field trips now, and I feel like it’s just to keep me from going. It. He never wanted to before. Anne: If he was actually a good dad, he would’ve been doing it before, but since he’s only doing it now, he is just performing. Nancy: Yes, it’s a performance because he’s getting something out of it from other people, like in in celebrate recovery near me, and it’s punishment for me because he knows how much I like being there for the kids. Reluctance to support anything he can’t control Nancy: When we married, he didn’t want us to do extracurricular activities. He didn’t even want free after school activities, much less anything you would have to pay for. He was only okay with youth group attached to his job, not the free after school activities. But since we’ve been divorced, he has them interested in hockey, which is one of the most expensive and time consuming sports there is. It’s very strange from my entire experience with him. He never talked about hockey, and he never wanted them involved. At the same time, he is not wanting to pay half of necessary expenses, like medical or orchestra uniforms. For a long time, I was not asking for half of necessary expenses. Because I didn’t wanna have to deal with him because he makes it such a struggle. Anne: My ex is exactly like that, exactly. When my book comes out, I’m anxious for you to read it, because it was all about control. Like, if I’m paying you anything or if I’m involved in any way, I have to control it. Nancy: Yeah, like my youngest wanted to do karate. His dad would not participate even when I offered to pay the whole thing. Other son was invited to concert band, and his dad said no. Anne: Think about the power trip that gives him that he’s able to manipulate them away from their natural interests. And maybe hockey is something that he wants to do. Like he thinks karate’s dumb, but he thinks hockey’s interesting. Draining my bank account and controlling my time Nancy: It is a huge expense that is very draining. When he won’t even pay half of an AP test. Anne: And that might be part of it. He’s, let’s pick the most expensive thing to drain her bank account. Nancy: Yeah, it was a double bind to drain my bank account and control my time. And at the same time, if I have to back out of it. He’ll say, sorry, kids, Mom won’t let us go to hockey. Anne: He’s calculating ways to set you up to be the bad guy. Nancy: Yes, he is an expert at setting up situations, so my bank account is being drained, and I cover a hundred percent of their insurance. Anne: With a lot of these post-separation abuse situations. They get the benefits, but they don’t have any of the responsibilities, and they can use it against you, but it never works for you. They can bend the rules in order to benefit them, but you can’t bend the rules. Nancy: In the Living Free Workshop. It was helpful to see how to deal with narcissistic abuse in marriage and how it plays out in separation, to find a way out of it. There was one thing you said, and this is when you’re moving away from his harm. You said, “If he escalates, remember that protecting yourself from the harm is not the cause of the harm. Just like evacuating a building was not the cause of the exploding gas lines.” He still wants to get together Nancy: That really hit me. One of the things that keeps haunting me is did I do the right thing? He still tries to get together personally with me. It constantly comes up that he wants to get together for coffee, or would I go to counseling with him, co-parenting counseling. I mostly ignore it at this point because he’s asked so many times. I don’t even answer him. Then if something goes wrong with the money situations or if there’s a point of disagreement, he will say, if you would’ve only met with me like I’ve asked, then this would’ve already been stopped. Anne: Yeah, we could’ve worked it out somehow, no. He would still lie. Nancy: It’s a trap. There’s that little 2% of me left that feels like, well, maybe I should meet with him, but no, it’s a trap. Anne: Yeah, no. Nancy: Because he never intends to do a nice thing. He just wants to get me in front of him again. I don’t think any good would come of it. Anne: A hundred percent, no. It might seem good, ’cause once you get there, it might seem good. He might like to turn on the manipulative lies to make you feel like he cares. I think one of the most abusive things people can say is, I love you or that I care. So manipulating you in that way is actually dangerous, and that’s probably what would happen. Nancy: I don’t think I could keep a straight face. It would skive me out so bad to be around him and hear stuff like that. Everything he says is the opposite of the truth Anne: Well, it’s just further evidence of his controlling nature, because he desperately wants to hang on to control. And so he’s increasing his lies because it’s getting away from him. That’s definitely a sign that he’s been lying the whole time. Nancy: I completely agree. I know that this is better for them in the long run, but in the short run, that sentence helps me right now. That was probably one of the hardest things for me to come to terms with, is that he never loved me. He doesn’t love the children. None of it’s real. It’s all lies, and he still does it. It’s mind-boggling. Everything he says is the opposite of what the truth is. He continues lying as he did in programs like Celebrate Recovery near me. As we were moving through the separation process, the boys did not want to leave and crying and like holding onto the car seats. It was horrible. I knew if I said anything to him, he wouldn’t care. Any altercation would be scary for the kids. So I started getting third party exchange people through a new church. I actually found a church with a woman pastor, which is quite lovely. The new church was helpful and supportive, and there were several people that would help me with exchanges. And things changed, like taking the Living Free Workshop, and suddenly I felt a lot stronger. I had a new understanding and confidence, so I stopped doing the third party exchanges. He actually met with the principal to try to get the principal to agree with him that I’m not allowed to go into the school on his parenting weeks. like in celebrate recovery near me, A clear example of him lying, controlling and abusing Nancy: Which isn’t true. You’re allowed to visit your kid in the school. Anne: Absolutely. Nancy: Unless there’s a restraining order, which there’s not. We have shared custody, but he made it sound like the principal agreed with him. I didn’t think it was the truth, but it scared me at the time. And we were about to have a party, and I signed up to bring food, so I worried I would be kicked out. But the principal didn’t say anything. Isn’t that a clear example of parental alienation? Anne: It’s a clear way of him undermining your relationship with your kids, lying, controlling, and abusing you. This is how he’s literally abusing you and your children. Nancy: Everybody heard about this incident, and it didn’t matter. He made it sound like he had just been concerned for the children’s wellbeing. Anne: Yeah, no. Nancy: My being around them upset them. Anne: Lies. That’s the issue they lie in programs like Celebrate Recovery near me and fool the leaders. Nancy: It’s lies at times it is possible that they might be upset, but it’s not because they’re scared of me. It’s more that they’re sad about the situation. My one son, he told me, it makes him sad to see me when he knows he has to go back to his dad’s. My daughter had a phone before we separated, but he wouldn’t allow communication between the boys and me ever. Once, my son called me using his sister’s phone. He was crying. I was only on the phone for about two or three minutes, and then the phone cut off. And they told me when they came back that he had been mad at them for calling me. Even if there is a court order they will find away around it Nancy: He wouldn’t allow them to have a watch phones either. That’s one of the reasons we went back to court. Anne: That’s the problem with court. You think if we get it in writing, then he’ll do it, but it doesn’t matter. He is not gonna do it no matter what. Nancy: This is what I have learned. I don’t ever wanna go back to court again, because it doesn’t help. No matter what you do, they’ll find a new way to cause harm. So there’s no point in any kind of new order. ‘Cause then they’ll find a new way around it. Anne: Exactly. Nancy: I’m still glad I went, because before I had been worried I had to do everything exactly perfectly or something would go wrong. And then I realized he’s doing wrong things on purpose. He just says stuff to get what he wants and nobody cares. So that has relieved a lot of fear. Anne: What would you share with listeners about what you’ve learned so far about finding help, maybe from Celebrate Recovery near me or elsewhere? Nancy: You know, hearing other people’s stories have meant so much to me, Living Free and the BTR coaches set me up for success. They told me to transfer half of our money to a separate bank account before I even told him that I might be leaving. That was incredibly helpful because I’m not sure if it would’ve been easy for me to get the money. I never used the word abuse or narcissism to him. That played out well, because he would’ve twisted it against me. Anne: A hundred percent. Kids need to know what a safe place feels like Nancy: Getting on the parenting app, super helpful, third parties for switches. Finding people to help with the things you need is just a lifesaver. I do feel like it will be better for the kids in the future, because they can be in a peaceful setting that’s not manipulative. So when they’re making decisions. About how they want to live and their future partners, that they know what it feels like to be in a safe place and being able to have discussions with them about men’s and women’s roles. Anne: Nancy, thank you so much for sharing your story today. And helping others who are searching, to find something truly helpful. Nancy: Thank you.

Transcribed - Published: 5 May 2026

Have you thought to yourself, “he says I’m controlling but I’m not.” If so, he’s likely emotionally and psychologically abusive. Here are 3 things to know. There are 19 different types of emotional abuse. To see if he’s emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz. 1. But What If I’m Actually Controlling? If a man is emotionally mean and wants to keep hurting someone, he might call her actions to feel safe “controlling” to trick her into stopping. This doesn’t mean you should stop looking for the truth or setting boundaries for your emotional safety. To learn about the most strategic ways to deal with his control, check out The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mfE5cABLp4 You’re not controlling if your desire is simply to keep yourself and your children safe and healthy. 2. Why Does He Say I’m Controlling? An abuser tricks people by lying to his victim and he says i’m controlling but i’m not. Is lying emotional abuse? Yes. It works a lot, and others around him believe his lies. But it’s not controlling to state your opinion or ask another adult to do their share. Do you know what is controlling? Lying and manipulation. The truth is, his accusation is really an admission. He’s the one controlling the narrative through his deceitful communication. 3. His Friends and Family Say His Ex Was Crazy Controlling If a man tells you that his ex was controlling (and has manipulated his friends and family the same way), it’s likely he’s grooming you to not ask too many questions. He usually wants a woman to give him enough space to do secret things he knows are outside her boundaries, like pornography, soliciting prostitutes, or other harmful, abusive behavior. If someone tries to make you leave them alone because they’re hiding things, it could be a warning sign of emotional or mental abuse. They might also try to pressure you into doing things you don’t want to do. If He Says You’re Controlling, You Need Support At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand what’s really going on when he says things like this to create confusion. We’d love to support you in your journey to emotional safety. Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn more. Transcript: He Says I’m Controlling But I’m Not Anne: In marriage, what’s the difference between controlling and expecting reasonable behavior? If he says I’m controlling but I’m not, here are three signs that he’s actually saying this to maintain control. 1. He calls your boundaries controlling. When you refuse to participate in behavior that you think is unacceptable, whether it’s believing his lies or not asking him questions when you don’t know where he has been, he’s trying to control the way you perceive him. 2. If he’s lying. The purpose of lying is control. And so if he’s lying, he’s the one trying to control you, not the other way around. 3. When your desire is for equality and peace, and his desire is to do what he wants. So if he told you that his ex was controlling when you met, it’s likely he was grooming you to not ask too many questions. Because then, later, when he says ‘I’m controlling, but I’m not,’ he can flip the script and accuse you of being controlling whenever he’s not getting his way. That’s the crazy thing about controlling men. Most women married to men like this don’t want power over, payback or revenge. They just want reasonableness, like honesty and equality. Coercive Control 101: When he says I’m controlling but I’m not Anne: Today I’ll interview Dr. Emma Katz. Here’s a preview of what she’s going to talk about today: Dr. Katz: What victim survivors want is just a restoration of reasonableness. They just want to interact with that person in a reasonable way and get reasonableness back again. And then they’re constantly dealing with the coercive controller. And they don’t want reasonableness or fairness, they want control. He says I’m controlling but I’m not because he wants to enjoy watching you suffer, to manipulate people for their own ends, to their own advantage. An entirely different, malicious agenda motivates them. So if people wonder, could I be a coercive controller? For most people, if you’re even asking that question, it’s unlikely. Anne: Dr. Katz is a senior lecturer in criminology at Edgehill University in the U.K. Her work has shaped understandings of coercive control across the globe. Her book, Coercive Control in Children’s and Mother’s Lives by Oxford University Press is the first academic book to focus on children and coercive control. She brings her research to the public in an accessible and influential way on her platform, Decoding Coercive Control with Dr. Emma Katz, where she writes articles that are read by tens of thousands of people in more than 100 countries around the world. Welcome Dr. Katz. Dr. Katz: Thanks so much for having me. Definition of Coercive control Anne: Thank you for being here. Dr. Katz, let’s start with the definition of coercive control. Dr. Katz: Coercive control is when one person sets up a dynamic in a relationship of “do what I say, or else.” That’s it in a nutshell. To go into it in a bit more detail, it’s when one person is subjecting another to persistent and wide-ranging controlling behavior, controlling multiple aspects of their life. Even though he says I’m controlling but I’m not. And this goes on for a significant period of time, and the perpetrator makes it clear that if you don’t cooperate with them, if you don’t obey them, they’re going to make life very unpleasant, very difficult for you. And within that, there’s a whole range of different things that they’ll do to you if you are not cooperating, from physical violence to sexual violence, to psychological and emotional abuse. To isolating you, to draining you economically, to hurting your loved ones, and many forms of punishment that they’ll inflict on you, if they don’t think you’re cooperating enough with them, obedient enough to them. Anne: Sadly, listeners to this podcast understand this issue on a very personal level, including myself in terms of counter parenting, that I dealt with for eight years post-divorce. It was very, very difficult. Thank goodness I’m past that now. For our listeners, who are victims of their husband’s lying or their ex-husband’s lying, and he is lying a lot to control the narrative. You talk about the difference between that and say, a loving mom who might get angry with her kid for not doing his homework. Control that parents exert over children Anne: I’m just thinking of myself as a single mom. I have two teenage boys, and right now there’s a lot of, get your butt off the couch right now and do your homework right now. And their dad is so nice to them. Like the sticky sweet, super nice. But the way he really does try to control what they do, like actually undermining their homework, getting them not to take baseball, or dropping their instrument lessons. ‘Cause so many of our listeners have been accused. Dr. Katz: So firstly, certainly when we’re a parent, we need to have some control over our children. So, if someone needs to have some control over their children as a parent, that’s healthy and normal. Because obviously children don’t have the development to always make the healthiest and smartest choice. Sometimes they need some guidance on that. And on how to effectively contribute to the household. So as long as what the parent expects is reasonable and in the child’s best interests. That’s fine. Anne: Like going to bed. Dr. Katz: Going to bed, brushing their teeth. Anne: Doing their homework. Dr. Katz: Yeah, not eating junk food all the time, that sort of thing. And being nice to each other, treating each other in a reasonable, fair way. So then, let’s talk about a controlling person. He says I’m controlling but I’m not: Characteristics of A Controlling person Dr. Katz: They may have some controlling tendencies, but you shouldn’t be terrified of them, because if you’re terrified of them, they’re way more than controlling, they’re abusive. A controlling person, you may need to stand up to them quite firmly, and you may need to set some boundaries with them, but they shouldn’t respond by punishing you maliciously, making your life hell. Because again, if they’re punishing you for standing up to them, we’re getting way beyond controlling. We’re getting into abusive. So now let’s talk about coercive controllers. They are way beyond a person with some controlling tendencies, because they are driven to have a lot of control over multiple domains of your life. And they’re not doing it in your best interest, but rather because they want to undermine you. A coercive controller wants to chip away at their targets. We’ve heard expressions like chipping away at a person, death by a thousand cuts. That’s what a coercive controller is trying to do. They’re trying to basically take a person and turn them into a hollowed out puppet on a string who just exists to please and serve them. They view it as their right and entitlement to turn you into a kind of puppet on a string who will just exist to please and serve them and have no needs, rights, dreams or wishes of your own. That’s the difference between like healthy parenting and then being a controlling person. Reasonableness vs. Abuse: What it really means when he says I’m controlling but I’m not Dr. Katz: But you shouldn’t scare people with how controlling you are, and then being a coercive controller, which is highly abusive. Anne: And when he accuses you of being controlling, it’s not because you actually are, it’s because you’re not doing what he wants. He says I’m controlling, but I’m not, simply means he’s losing access to the compliance he expected. Dr. Katz: No, I’m sure they’re just setting reasonable boundaries. So let’s talk about the vast difference in intention between somebody who’s being coercively controlled and a coercive controller. So, somebody who’s being coercively controlled wants fairness. They want the person to behave in a reasonable way that a reasonable person would accept as reasonable. Obviously, it depends on who you are asking. Some people might have unreasonable ideas about how people should behave. So that might be tricky. Like if you’re not sure about it and ask your parents, but your parents aren’t reasonable. And then they say, “No, you sound like you’re being unreasonable.” But you can think about it and think, oh, okay, maybe my parents actually aren’t that unreasonable. Anne: An example with my son, it should not take two hours to empty the dishwasher. Dr. Katz: Yeah. Anne: That’s pretty reasonable. Dr. Katz: Reasonable, yeah. It shouldn’t take two hours to empty the dishwasher. Survivors want a restoration of reasonableness, When Both Care and have respect Dr. Katz: So fairness, we’re talking about, I put into the relationship, and so do you. I can discuss my worries constructively with you, and you can discuss your worries constructively with me. We both care about how each other feels. We both generally want the best for each other. Even when we’re having a big argument, we still respect each other as human beings. We still see that we’re human beings here who just fundamentally have dignity and rights. And we each have a level of respect for each other, even if we don’t like each other much in that moment. So, reasonableness, yeah. What victim survivors want is just a restoration of reasonableness. They just want to interact with this perpetrator, who obviously they may not be seeing as a perpetrator in that moment. It might be your husband or ex-husband, but they want to interact with that person in a reasonable way and get reasonableness back again. And then they’re constantly having to deal with the coercive controller pushing and pushing and pushing them, and not doing anything reasonably. So, obviously they’re going to get upset, agitated, and frustrated about that, but that doesn’t mean they’re a bad person. They’re just dealing with a very unreasonable person who has no respect for them. And it’s hard to deal with someone like that. Now the coercive controller, they don’t want reasonableness. They don’t want fairness, they want control and want to enjoy watching you suffer. They want to manipulate people for their own ends, to their own advantage. Coercive Control is Domestic Abuse Dr. Katz: They don’t care about how people feel or the impacts of their behavior on the person, beyond being able to manipulate them to get what they want out of them. So an entirely different, malicious agenda motivates them. So if people wonder, could I be a coercive controller? Well, I think for most people, if you’re even asking that question, it’s unlikely. Because a coercive controller is usually pretty convinced they’re in the right, and they wouldn’t even stop to self-reflect most of the time on whether they were doing anything wrong. Because they only see their own entitlement to control, and they don’t stick to any reasonable behavior perhaps agreed upon. Don’t blame yourself. These people are just some of the most difficult people on the planet to deal with. Coercive control is part of domestic abuse. And another term coined to try and describe it is intimate partner terrorism or ex-partner terrorism. You could also say, so it’s like they’re your own personal terrorist, trying to control you through fear, trying to control you through power games, trying to stop you from living the normal life that citizens in your community normally live. So when you hear something like “He says I’m controlling, but I’m not,” that’s exactly the type of upside-down dynamic they create. It’s very severe and serious behavior. So perpetrators have to get quite sneaky about what they’re doing. If they really acted as though they were their own dictator, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, just forever. Then they would lose a lot of their power to keep that going, because ultimately it would be so horrific to go through all the time that the victim survivors would just run away. Coercive controllers never take proper accountability: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Dr. Katz: They would rather be homeless on the street than deal with it. So if they want to keep control of the victim survivor as long as possible. Particularly while the relationship’s still happening. So, they have to disguise what they’re doing by claiming they’re doing it out of kindness, out of protectiveness, out of care. I only do this because I love you. I only do this because I worry about you. I’m doing this in your best interests. You are not very good at doing that. I’m happy to take that burden off you and do that for you. I have to look out for you, et cetera, et cetera. So that it can often be disguised in these ways. And they’re very good at putting blame on the victim survivor, saying things like, “Well, I wouldn’t have reacted that way if you hadn’t been so dah, dah. dah.” So it’s always turning around and blaming the other person. They can never take proper accountability for what they’ve done. They can never just say, yes, that was my fault, and then shut up. Post-separation, they’re just on this mission to punish you as much as possible. For daring to have the strength and bravery to break free of them. Their sense of entitlement cannot bear that you’ve broken free of them. So they’re just on a mission to punish you post-separation. And they just wanna keep up that ability to punish you for as long as they can. And it’s horrific post-separation for victim survivors, because they’ve done what society now tells victim survivors to do and separated. What if the perpetrator won’t leave you alone Dr. Katz: That didn’t used to be the advice. The advice used to be stay in your marriage at all costs, and don’t you dare break up your family. Now, we tend to say, most of us, to victim survivors, the way to go is to separate. But then what if you do that and the perpetrator will not leave you alone? And they won’t leave you alone for five years, for 10 years, 15 years, and so on. We, as a society, have not grappled with that yet. We don’t want to grapple with it. And we don’t want to do anything to inconvenience our predominantly male perpetrators. Because if society wanted to inconvenience them, we would see that happening. We would see a much stronger response to what they do. But we see very little response to what they do. Victim survivors have a terrible difficulty getting any kind of response from the authorities post separation abuse. So it’s enormously difficult to endure and survive. Anne: It’s very interesting, because in some ways it looks like the same to an outsider. For example, many women who come on this podcast share their stories, including me. We wanted that reasonableness. And so insisting on it, or even fighting for it, not physically, but with a verbal, “Hey, we need to do this.” “It might seem to an outsider like we’re haranguing them or refusing to give up, the way coercive control is often misunderstood, and that’s how when he says I’m controlling, but I’m not, it looks reasonable to people who don’t understand what is happening. Abusers are always doing something for a reason Anne: But if the situation is inherently unfair, and if this situation is inherently nonsensical. And she’s trying to make sense of it, and she won’t let go of equality, fairness, or logic. And he wants her to let go of that, so he says I’m controlling but I’m not. From the outside, it looks like the same or almost exactly the same. And people cannot tell the difference. And I like to have people consider what is the aim of it. Like for example, exploitation. Many of these men just don’t want to pay child support, for example. And so because they don’t wanna pay child support, but they can’t technically do that. They’re like, well if I have to pay child support, then I’m going to make it as miserable as possible for her. And maybe someday she’ll just give up and not ask me for child support anymore. No one’s gonna say to the victim, “Hey, maybe let go of the child support.” Because she needs that money. And she’s also legally entitled to it. But he does not think that she is. And so there’s one thing to consider as victims in this scenario is what is their real intent. They’re making your life a living hell, because they don’t want to do something. They don’t wanna pay child support, they don’t wanna pay alimony, they don’t want their son to play baseball, because if their son plays baseball once a week or twice a week, they have to sit and watch this game that they don’t enjoy watching. And they would rather undermine it and tell him, you’re bad at baseball, baseball’s bad for you. Dr. Katz: Yeah, abusers are highly functional in what they’re doing. They’re always doing it for a reason. Lying is central for perpetrators: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Anne: Yeah, and usually the way they do it is through lies. Rather than saying to the kid or the mom or whoever, I don’t enjoy watching my kids’ baseball games, so I’m not going to go. But yeah, shine on, do whatever. They lie and say, baseball’s not good for you. You don’t really wanna play baseball. Your mom is coercing you to play baseball. It’s all this other stuff. I always come back to the lying is the real problem. Because if they told the truth, I don’t want to pay child support, and if I have to, I’m going to wreak havoc on you. Then if they said that in court, then everyone would be like, okay. Dr. Katz: Absolutely right. Yeah. Anne: It’s the lies that are the problem, all the abuse is the problem too. But they just wouldn’t get very far in their abuse if they did not lie. Dr. Katz: You’re so right. They would not get far in their abuse if they did not lie. And lying is so central to what they do. I think we don’t talk enough about how perpetrators are, as you say, tremendous liars. They just lie all the time, and they construct a narrative based on lies, distortions, and twisting things. And in this narrative, they’re a good person, and they’re doing nothing wrong. Everyone else is crazy, unreasonable, and horrible to them. And as you say, they’re not admitting to what they’re doing. Imagine, people say, “Oh, you picked the wrong guy.” But imagine if they stood up on a first date and said, “My intention is to hollow you out, to enrich myself at your expense. When He says I’m controlling but I’m not: D.A.R.V.O. explained in real life Dr. Katz: So after 10 years with me, you would be very poor and have few economic assets, and I would be much richer and would’ve siphoned off your assets. That should been yours. Anne: Right, exploited you. Dr. Katz: Yeah, I’m going to exploit you for 10 years, yeah. I’m going to expect far more with you than I’m willing to give myself. My plan is to ensure that you never have a strong relationship with your children, because that would make you too happy, and I don’t want to see that. So if we have children together, I’m going to make sure to sabotage your relationship with your children as often as possible. Imagine if they made that speech on the first date, and that is their intention, and they’ve probably done it before. Then obviously everyone would get up and run for the hills, but they lie and disguise. So lying is so central to what they do. And also, we see this use of DARVO. So hopefully most of your listeners are familiar with this concept of DARVO: deny, attack, reverse victim and offender, D-A-R-V-O. Again, this lying is central to DARVO. The perpetrator will deny that they were abusive. Say, “Oh, I never did that.” Or, “I only did that because I was provoked.” And then they’ll turn around and try and attack the victim’s character so that people won’t find them credible anymore. And very often that’s along the lines of, she’s crazy. She’s my crazy, psycho ex. They attack the credibility of the victim Dr. Katz: She’s unreasonable. She’s got a mental health disorder. They’ll throw around all these sort of mental health labels. Like she’s got narcissistic personality disorder, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, et cetera. Even though she wouldn’t have been diagnosed with any of these things. And oh, she’s mean, she’s a really nasty person. Everyone hates her, etc. So they attack the credibility of the victim. So that people won’t take them seriously, won’t believe them, will have major doubts in their minds about their believability. And then they try and reverse victim and offender. So, I’m not the bad guy here, but she is. She’s the one who’s actually been horrible to me for all these years. And then a big long list of twists and distortions of things, or just outright lies of things that they think the victim survivor’s done. Meanwhile, constantly playing down what they’ve done. So by the time people hear all this DARVO narrative from perpetrators. Some people can see through it, but most of the time people don’t know what to believe, and they don’t know how to unpick all this. And what people usually do in response to DARVO is think, that sounds messy. It sounds like they were both horrible. So I’m just not going to get involved, and I’m not going to stand up for this victim survivor, and I’m not going to stand against this perpetrator. Because I can’t even tell who’s right and who’s wrong. So I’m just gonna walk away. And then when people do that, they leave the perpetrator with all the power. The victim has no one to support her Dr. Katz: And the victim survivor, with no one supporting them. And that power imbalance between them that the perpetrator’s been so clever as to build up over the years, there’s no one there challenging that. Because everyone’s been put off from getting involved by the DARVO. So that can often be the case. That can often be what ends up happening. It’s devastating to people. So one message I would always give people is to try and educate those around them on DARVO tactics. So when it happens, people will be more able to see through it. . But I think if we all have more awareness of how common DARVO tactics are, then they’ll be a little bit less effective. Anne: Yeah, one thing I try to do here at BTR and through our services is give women confidence. So often when women sense something’s wrong. But they don’t know that he’s lying, and no one else does either. They don’t recognize they’re a victim of his emotional and psychological abuse. No one else does, either. They may go to a couple therapist, or often sex addiction or pornography addiction recovery. That makes things even more complex and they get blamed even more. And they’re going because they need help. Most of the time it’s the victims who set these appointments. It’s women who wanna know what’s going on? How can I fix this? I would love for everyone listening to know that you know enough in your own heart and in your own mind, and it’s great to get validation. And hopefully you can get it from this podcast and from Dr. Katz and all the other wonderful domestic abuse advocates out there and feel that. Couple therapists or addiction therapists can’t identify the abuse: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Anne: If you don’t know what’s going on, and go to a couple therapist or addiction therapist or some program, like a marriage intensive. They will not identify this for you. And rather than confirming what you already know, what you sense. The gaslighting that’s going to occur, and the DARVO will start to knock down your sense of confidence. And he keeps you in the dark longer when he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. Dr. Katz: That’s so true. I wrote one of my Substack articles in February about how family therapy and coercive control is a match made in hell. And I would also say couples counseling, and anything like that. Because most therapists have had very little or indeed no training on coercive control as part of their degree they took in psychology. Or any kind of qualifications they did to enable them to practice counseling or psychology or whatever it’s that they’re doing. So it’s unlikely they have any knowledge of coercive control. And if they do, it may not be sufficient knowledge. It may not be from good sources. So they might think they know something about it, but what they know is maybe old fashioned stuff, maybe quite victim blaming. It’s just not good information to base practice upon in the current day. So yes, if you go to somebody wearing the hat of a professional, but they know nothing about coercive control. They can’t recognize it, can’t see that it’s happening right there in their office. They don’t have the training necessary to make sense of what they’re seeing. Then yes, that’s just going to leave the victim survivor thinking they were wrong to ever think this was a serious and abusive situation that their perpetrator was subjecting them to. The premise of couple therapy is that both partners contribute to the problems in the relationship Dr. Katz: They’re just gonna walk out thinking, it sounds like maybe I’m to blame and maybe I can fix this. Maybe I need to compromise more, sacrifice more, and try harder. Because that’s what the therapist probably will be set up to suggest. So, couples therapists are not there to deal with abuse. They shouldn’t be seeing people where one person’s abusing the other. They really shouldn’t be doing that. The whole premise of couples therapy is that both partners contribute to the problems in the relationship, and also that both partners are willing to deal with the problems. And that they both want to get to a healthier place, so it is not set up for coercive control situations at all. And the same with family therapy. The idea of family therapy is that everyone who’s going to that is contributing to the problem and everyone has a sort of genuine good intention to try and sort it out. And when you have an abuse perpetrator, that is not the case whatsoever. Anne: No, and if they’re lying they’ll go to couple therapy and they will say they are there because they want to improve the situation. Again, if they went in and said, “There’s no way I’m gonna change my tactics. I’m a liar and it works really good and I can exploit her all the time.” It doesn’t matter what proof you have. It doesn’t matter if you’ve got some checklist and you’re like, look at all these things on the checklist, you’re doing all these. They never will do that because they are inherently a liar. Couple therapy with an abuser can keep you stuck Anne: So in that session, they’re like, of course I’m here. Of course I wanna make this better, of course I’ll compromise. I will do this and this, and then I really need her to do this, this and this. And he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. He’s never gonna do the thing he just said he is gonna do, but the therapist is like, wow, he really wants to be here. He cares about his marriage. He wants to make this work. They don’t have the frame of reference to understand that he is literally lying to her and the therapist. So, it’s a very dangerous situation when she also does not know. Luckily, I’ve had a few people tell me they listened to my podcast. They weren’t sure, but in the back of their mind they were thinking, “Okay, He says I’m controlling but I’m not. And she said it’s bad, but I don’t really know.” Thank goodness, because they had that heads up, they could see what was going on. Whereas other women who don’t know what’s happening and the therapist doesn’t know what’s happening. Sometimes get stuck in that gaslighting world for five years, 10 years, 20 years of this type of couple therapy, until they realize he’s been lying the entire time. Dr. Katz: That’s so true. I think that going to therapy with your abuser can keep you stuck for another five or 10 years. It can be devastating. It may keep you stuck forever. You may never recover from it. Hopefully, that’s infrequently the case. But for some people, we know they never escape. And they’re with that perpetrator till the day they die. women are profoundly impacted by coercive control: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Anne: Yeah, and I think a lot of times it’s ’cause they don’t know. I wanna credit all women for doing that, because they believe couple therapy will improve it, because everybody says that. It’s common advice. So they’re trying to get help. They are trying to improve their situation. They’re not dumb, they’re smart. That’s what a smart person does. A smart person knows they’re in over their head, and a smart person goes for help. The problem is that they don’t say I am an abuse victim, ’cause they don’t know. The therapist also does not identify it, and that is not the victim’s fault. Dr. Katz: Especially if the perpetrator’s clever to never be physically violent. Most perpetrators are intimidating. They shout in your face, they glare at you. They might kick the furniture, they might throw objects around, but not actually at you. But they send you the message, you better cooperate with me, or else next time I’ll be kicking you, not this sofa. But if they don’t actually cross the line into attacking you, then a lot of women are uncomfortable labeling that abuse. Because we’ve been taught for so long that abuse is violence, black eyes, broken bones. And abuse needs that physical element to be real. And that’s not the case at all. We see that women are just as profoundly impacted by non-physical coercive control. That is really severe, and limits their life to a great extent. We’re seeing these women with the same kinds of distress and trauma as those who’ve been physically hurt. Women do their best with the information they have Dr. Katz: So it’s as you say, women who are going through this, I would never ever say they were dumb. On the contrary, they’re smart. They’re doing the best they can with the knowledge they have and the pieces of the puzzle they can see. They’re not a mind reader. They can’t tell what their perpetrator is actually thinking. So they do their best with the information they have. Meanwhile, he says I’m controlling but I’m not. I’m adamant that victim survivors are simply ordinary people who had the misfortune to meet a perpetrator and maybe to meet more than one perpetrator, because for lots of people, this happens more than once in their lifetime. And that’s not because there was something wrong with them, but just because there are an extraordinarily high number of abusers out there. Our society is frankly flooded with them. For example, one in five men in America admits physically attacking their partner or wife. Research and surveys have found that one third of college men would have sex with a woman against her will if nobody found out, and there wouldn’t be any consequences for them. So that’s one third of our college men who say yes. They would actually be happy to rape a woman if they could get away with it. One third of college men would coerce women Dr. Katz: Researchers didn’t use the word rape, because that’s a very particular word that makes people have a very particular reaction. But they said sex against a woman’s will, which is rape. And a third of them said, yes, they’d be happy to do that if they could get away with it. if you’ve had the misfortune to be in a marriage with one, that’s not because there was something particularly wrong with you. You were just an ordinary person who had the misfortune to meet one of these abusers. Anne: Yeah, in my opinion, lying is the most common type of sexual coercion. They know that if they said, “I’m gonna take you on this date, I’m gonna fake I like everything you like, I’m gonna look you in the eyes. I’m gonna give you compliments. I only want to have sex with you, and then I never wanna see you again.” Then when he gets “consent.” She says yes to sex under the guise of him actually liking her. That is sexual coercion. She never hears from him again, and it’s like that was confusing. We hit it off. He seemed to like me. We had everything in common. I would submit that in many of those cases it was that he was just mirroring, grooming, lying to get you to say yes. Thinking the yes means it’s okay. If you say yes, then win-win, right? It’s what everybody wanted. It’s not wrong if she says yes, kind of an idea. And it’s very wrong, and it’s sexual coercion, which is rape, essentially. Dr. Katz: Yes, there are all sorts of circumstances in which people can say yes, and it’s valid or invalid. When someone is lying to you it’s not a valid yes: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Dr. Katz: So, if you’re saying yes, because you have the genuine information about what’s going on, and you’re saying yes of your own free will because you are enthusiastic about what’s gonna happen. And if you’re gonna participate in that with enthusiasm, then that’s a valid yes. But if you don’t have all the information, if someone’s lying to you and deceiving you, and so you’re actually acting on false information with your, “Yes.” Your yes is coming from a place where you don’t understand the full picture of what’s going on, then I don’t think that’s a valid yes. Anne: No matter how enthusiastic she is. Because she might be extremely enthusiastic based on his lies. But that doesn’t mean anything. Dr. Katz: No, like you say, it needs to be based on correct, truthful information to be valid. We might be enthusiastic about signing a contract for a new phone, because we think we know what this contract says. But if we actually read the contract and found it was full of lies, something very different’s gonna happen. And we’re going to be robbed of our money, given a bad deal, and ripped off for this phone. Then obviously, our enthusiasm would not have been there had we known that. Anne: Right. Dr. Katz: And also, to give a valid yes, you need to be comfortable to say no. If you’re scared of saying no, that’s coercive Dr. Katz: If you’re in any way scared of saying no. If saying no will lead to hours and hours of sulking, guilt tripping, pushing, asking you over and over again, trying to turn your no into a yes. Then if it’s in those sorts of circumstances, you don’t have the option to say no easily. So a lot of the time people will say yes, because they know that saying no is too hard. There’s too much pushback. So they say yes. But if they really had a free choice, they wouldn’t be saying yes. And for me, the yes is invalid, because you didn’t have the proper choice. Similarly with sexual coercion, if you really wanted to say no, but you couldn’t because the pushback would be so bad, then it’s not a proper yes. And then it is rape, or sexual assault, depending on what then happens. I think that’s a tough conversation. Anne: Yeah, I think there’s another element to this, which is how abusers gaslight victims & advocates. That is, maybe even if he’s not pressuring her, if she thinks it’s my duty as a wife to have sex. It’s often maybe a faith that might tell her, “You need to submit to your husband’s sexual desires.” Or maybe someone who’s like, “If he doesn’t have sex regularly, he’ll maybe go have an affair.” Or, “He’ll have sex with someone else.” Or something like that. So even if he’s pressing her and he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. If she has absorbed some of that societal or religious gaslighting, she is 100% not coercing herself. That is absolutely not what I’m saying. If he chooses to have an affair, that has nothing to do with you saying no Anne: But hear those voices in her own head, not realizing they’re not her own voice. Not realizing it is from this religious or societal scripting, and not realizing that is just not true. Even if he’s not pressing her to do it, if she has absorbed some of that societal or religious gaslighting, she is 100% not coercing herself. That is absolutely not what I’m saying. But hear those voices in her own head, not realizing they’re not her own voice. Not realizing it is from this religious or societal scripting, and not realizing that is just not true. If you don’t wanna have sex for any reason, it doesn’t even matter. If he chooses to use porn or have an affair, that literally has nothing to do with you saying no, because you didn’t wanna have sex. But this, it’s your fault that he did this thing that hurt you when you said no. So many women in our community are told like, “Well, what did you think was gonna happen if you didn’t wanna have sex with him? Of course, he was gonna go use porn or solicit a prostitute or have an affair or whatever.” Not realizing that what he does is his choice completely independently. This doesn’t happen that often. ‘Cause I, I don’t interact with single men very much, but if I do and they say something like, “Oh, my ex-wife, she was just frigid and she wouldn’t give me sex.” I always say, “Oh, I am so glad. That’s great. ‘Cause women should never have sex when they don’t want to.I’m glad you were married to such an awesome person.” he says i’m controlling but i’m not: I’m the terrible person when I refuse Anne: And they literally have no idea what to say. They’re like, I don’t even know how to react. Dr. Katz: That’s awesome. I wish I could be there to see that when they react that way. Because I think this is a related point. Which is, what is wrong with men who are having sex with women who are not enthusiastic about what’s happening? That is so disgusting. Why would you want to be intimate with another person’s body in that way? When they’re just lying there and thinking when it’s going to be over. You know that even if they’re putting up an act to seem enthusiastic. But you just coerce that act out of them, because before you’ve complained, they’re just lying there. So that you pressured them to give an appearance of enthusiasm. When you know they’re not enthusiastic genuinely. What is wrong with people who want to have sex under those circumstances? I will never understand that, and I find it so gross and awful. Anne: I remember telling my ex, ’cause sex with him was just miserable. And I told people about it, and that made me the terrible person, because I was like, “Yeah, sex with him stinks.” And that really hurt his feelings. And I was like, “It’s not that fun.” I didn’t realize what was going on. So I was kind of flippant about stuff. But I was very open about it. Do all of the reasons or excuses make sense? Anne: So just to skip ahead for a minute, when I realized it was abuse, no one took me seriously because I was so open about everything. They were like, “Well, you can’t be an abuse victim because you’re not mousy or quiet or anything.” But I told him once, “Do you think I could just read a book? Do you think I could maybe prop it open and you could be having sex, but I could be reading.” And I was a little bit joking, but not really. And instead of being like, wow, what’s going on? I don’t remember what he said, but he didn’t respond in a way that made me feel like he really would care that much if I was reading. And I think that’s the point you’re getting at. Is like what? Like that is so crazy. The conversations that women in this situation have. Whether it be about sex or about him yelling or weeding or whatever. You think about the conversations and if women are still in it and maybe they’re going to couple therapy. Maybe someone is saying, “Well, let’s get to the heart of his childhood trauma.” And maybe why he said this or something. But if you can take just one step back or have a little bit of an objective point of view and realize like, this is crazy pants. Anyway, thinking about that, it’s important as women listen to think, wait a minute. All these reasons or excuses, do they even make sense when he says I’m controlling but I’m not? Dr. Katz: It’s so hard to see it when you’re in proximity. Perspective from depersonalizing the situation Dr. Katz: Maybe something that might be helpful is to imagine this conversation among hypothetical friends you might make up in your head. And run this conversation. My hypothetical friends who are married, they had this conversation that mirrored the conversation I’ve just had with my partner or husband. What would I make of this if this was happening to other people? What would that mean if somebody said this? So, what does that say about them as a person, where they’re at, and what their mental state is? And if someone else says this, how would I understand that if it was not me, but someone else? And just to try and take that kind of, like you say, that step back, depersonalize it a little bit, that can be useful. I think I’ll reiterate that. The people being abused have done nothing wrong. And I don’t think there’s anything abnormal about them. Sometimes we hear the most appallingly victim blaming things, even from people who say, “Oh, I’m not victim blaming.” And he says I’m controlling but I’m not. People say you need to take accountability for your part in the abuse. No, you don’t. You were looking for a normal, healthy, loving relationship, and you got served a load of lies and loads of abuse. And nothing to do with you. It’s not your fault, you don’t need to take accountability for any of that. Human nature binds us. So for most of us, we’re bound by the messages that we get from our society. women are encouraged by society to be kind: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Dr. Katz: It will take us a long time to figure out that we’re being abused because we don’t want to think that’s happening to us. We don’t want to think that particular script is suddenly running in our lives. We don’t want to reinterpret a situation that we thought we understood through the lens of, well, maybe this is abuse, because that’s tough. Most people, understandably, don’t want to do that. So it takes people a long time to get to that place. That’s human nature, and that’s the way our society is set up. People are not encouraged to make that assumption quickly, “Oh, this is abuse.” They’re encouraged to be kind and considerate, to have empathy even if your husband has no empathy, and to be self-sacrificing, and to try and make things work. Especially women are encouraged to be like that, and there’s nothing to be ashamed of or to blame yourself for if it took a long time to get to that place. You’re not alone, because that’s what happens to pretty much everyone. I just think people say things like, “Oh, you must have attracted the abuser into your life,” or “you teach people how to treat you.” Or he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. And I think those things are horribly victim blaming statements. And I reject them completely. I think that, as I say, we’re all doing our best here in a society that is pretty much flooded with abusive people. There are far too many of them. They’re not one in a hundred, they’re perhaps one in two, one in three, one in four. There are many abusive people out there, especially unfortunately, men willing to be abusive to women. Obviously, it can happen the other way around, but coercive control is a male dominated crime. Coercive control is a crime in the UK Dr. Katz: I’m speaking to you from the UK, where we have made coercive control a crime. I think that is the case in a handful of American states and a couple of Australian states. It’s patchy, in a lot of places it’s not a crime yet. But I see it as a crime. I just wanna say all that. I think victims and survivors really deserve so much more credit than they’re given. Like you say, people are often very negative about victim survivors. Actually, you’re just a completely ordinary person who’s had to survive something really horrific. And anyone who survived that I think is doing amazing. Even if you’re only hanging on by your fingernails, even if you feel like you’re only surviving by a very thin margin, the fact that you are still surviving in any circumstances in my book means you are awesome. Anne: Well, thank you so much, Dr. Katz. I really appreciate your work, and it’s so wonderful to meet another woman in this fight to protect victims and help them when he says I’m controlling but I’m not. So thank you so much. Dr. Katz: Ah, well, thanks so much for having me on. It’s a pleasure. Thank you.

Transcribed - Published: 7 April 2026

​Are you looking for a therapist for trauma bonding​ because someone told you that you’re trauma bonded with your emotionally abusive husband (or ex)? Here’s what no one will tell you: What People Get Wrong About “Trauma Bonding” People often use the phrase “trauma bonding” to describe a victim’s attachment to an abusive partner. But traditionally, a trauma bond refers to something very different. True Trauma Bonding Examples A trauma bond forms when people go through a traumatic event together, such as: Siblings growing up in the same abusive home Friends surviving a violent घटना together A family experiencing a natural disaster In these cases, shared trauma created a bond. Both people were victims of the same event. That’s not what’s happening in an abusive relationship. Why “Therapy for Trauma Bonding” Can Be Misleading If you’re thinking about getting a therapist for trauma bonding, you may be trying to understand why you feel attached to someone who hurts you. But labeling your experience as a “bond” can unintentionally shift responsibility onto you. It can make it seem like: You’re choosing this connection You’re emotionally dependent in a way that’s your fault You need to “break your attachment” But what if the attachment isn’t something you created? What if he manufactured it? The Manufactured Relational Tether Instead of a trauma bond, what many women experience is something different: A manufactured relational tether. This happens he creates a cycle of: Chaos Confusion Emotional harm Intermittent relief He destabilizes you…then becomes the one who soothes you. Not because you chose it. But because it was engineered. It’s actually emotional abuse. To find out if you’re experiencing this, take my free emotional abuse test. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QleyqobSRCQ How to Break a Trauma Bond without Therapy If you’ve been told you need therapy for trauma bonding, you may feel… dependent on him, even when you don’t want to both drawn to him and repelled by him confused by his words vs. his actions frustrated with yourself for not “just leaving” like this must somehow be your fault relief when he’s kind—even if it’s brief That doesn’t mean you’re “bonded” to him. But it does mean that he’s lying to you by creating cycles of harm and relief. If you’re trying to heal from your marriage without therapy, there’s another way. I’ll share it with you below. 14 Signs You Don’t Need a Therapist for Trauma Bonding​ He withdraws, then gives affection when you’re distressed when he… isolates you from supportive people makes you doubt your perception of reality alternates between kindness and cruelty controls resources like money or access undermines your confidence creates problems he later “fixes” pushes your boundaries repeatedly positions himself as the victim uses other people to provoke insecurity gives approval only sometimes acts different in public vs. private promises change but doesn’t follow through blames you for his behavior witholds affection This isn’t a mutual bond. It’s a pattern of control. Why This Distinction Matters If you believe you’re “trauma bonded,” you may think, I need to heal myself to break this bond. But if what you’re experiencing is manipulation, then the path forward is different. You don’t need to fix yourself. You need clarity. One woman shared: “I thought I was the problem because I couldn’t detach. But once I understood the pattern, everything changed.” Moving Forward (Without Blaming Yourself) Here’s the think, I don’t think you need therapy for trauma bonding, but that doesn’t mean you don’t need support. You may need someone to help you: See the pattern clearly Understand emotional and psychological abuse Learn how to protect yourself Rebuild trust in your own perception At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, women learn how to step out of confusion and into clarity. And once you can see it clearly, you can begin to move forward—with truth, with support, and with your sense of self intact. So how do you break free… Open up to a safe person or safe group, check out my online trauma bond support group. Become educated about betrayal trauma and what causes it Practice radical self-care daily Take my Living Free Workshop. “Best information source for betrayal trauma. Instead of unhelpful trauma bonding examples, this gave me hope that I could move forward. Thank you, Anne, for writing this.“ Many women don’t realize how dangerous this type of manipulation is. In fact, experts who work with trafficking victims describe the exact same cycles: grooming confusion emotional dependency intermittent kindness fear of leaving hope that he’ll change

Transcribed - Published: 15 March 2026

Counter parenting is one of the most overlooked forms of abuse, where one parent actively works against the other instead of with them. It undermines stability, confuses children, and normalizes emotional abuse in ways that often go unseen. In this episode, we talk about how to recognize counter parenting and why understanding it is vital for creating safety and freedom for you and your kids. To see if your partner’s behavior is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Six Truths About Counter Parenting Every Mom Needs To Know 1. Counter parenting looks harmless IN public, but it’s cruel IN private. In public, it may sound like jokes. It may seem like teasing, but in private it cuts deep. What seems like humor or sympathy actually erodes a child’s respect for their mom. 2. counter parenting keeps you busy and confused. He creates constant fires with the kids that keep you spinning your wheels so that you have to be involved and he can exploit you for parenting. You’re left doing the chores he forgot. Fixing problems he “didn’t know how to handle” or covering responsibilities he shrugs off. The chaos robs you of energy for real parenting and distracts you from the core issue, a pattern of deception and control. 3. counter parenting normalizes emotional abuse. His anger issues or stress mask his manipulation. He uses secrets and favors to pull kids into his corner and create distance from you. 4. counter parenting grooms and isolates the protective parent. I went through this. I was so stressful all the time. People thought it was my fault, and they distanced themselves from me. Which was very difficult. While redefining you as unstable, he love bombs the children with gifts, leniency, and special treatment to position himself as the fun one and undermine your authority. It’s important to know that healing doesn’t happen in isolation—it happens in a community of women who truly understand what you’re going through. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are designed to offer just that. 5. The kids will figure it out sooner than you think. Kids quickly learn who they feel safe with eventually they will come to know who they can count on. 6. if he’s a terrible husband, he can’t be a good father. A man who lies and degrades women can never be a good dad. If this list resonates with your experiences in your marriage, there is a strong possibility you may be facing emotional abuse. To learn effective strategies for protecting yourself, consider enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Transcript: Counter Parenting Hidden Truths You Should Know Anne: I have A. S. King on today’s episode. I think you’ll resonate with her story, especially when we get to this part. Her latest book is called Pick The Lock. Amy: I didn’t know this at the time, and I really know it now. One can’t be a terrible husband and a good father. We can take something terrible and somehow survive in it. Anne: So yes, our topic today is counter parenting. A. S. King is incredible. The New York Times book Review called her one of the best YA writers working today. And is one of YA fiction’s most decorated. She’s the only two-time winner of the American Library Association’s Michael L. Prince Award. She won the LA Times book prize for Ask the Passengers. And in 2022, Amy received the ALA’s, Margaret A. Edwards Award for her lifetime achievement in YA literature. So as you listen to Amy, you’ll hear each of those six things in her story. Welcome, Amy. Amy: Thank you for having me, Anne. From the very beginning, I followed you on Instagram. I often link your graphics in my stories in Instagram. Your graphics are educational, when you will find yourself in a situation where there is abuse. It mattered so much to me, because I lived almost 30 years with abuse. I had this one book called Still Life with Tornado. It came out in 2016. A lot of recovery groups for women who have been through abuse use that one, specifically psychological and emotional abuse. Which of course is always present when any of the other stuff is there. This year I just released a book called Pick the Lock, which is very close to, a lot of the things I’ve been dealing with. Before I finally divorced, and since. The Silent Tyrant: The Subversive Tactics of the Counter Parent Amy: Actually, the book for this year is all about what I found out about counter parenting. This is part of why I wanted to come here. I know that some listeners in that space I can help and fix this, and they’re stuck. Because I was stuck for 29 years. I believed so many things and I thought so many things. We all know hindsight’s 20-20. You learn life backward, right? That’s how it works. And what I learned in the last few years really taught me. That a huge part of the rest of my life will be trying to compassionately warn women and young women. And that our levels of comfort and safety are actually incredibly important, even though society constantly tells us that they are not. Yeah, I just wanted to talk to you about why I love your work so much. Anne: I’m so grateful that you reached out, and excited when artists, writers, use your unique talents to help other women. So as you’re considering teaching a generation of women through YA fiction about how to recognize abuse, what are some patterns that every woman needs to know regardless of their age? Amy: One of the best things about writing fiction for me is that it’s not implicating somebody, even though it’s all true. It’s sort of, like showing the behaviors. And showing the reactions to the behaviors. In Still Life with Tornado, for example, the mother has a point of view part. So she speaks from her own point of view. But the father, he’s just that silent tyrant. Sort of that quiet abuse that’s really easy to get away with, because it’s quiet and it’s only aimed at disrespecting his wife in that book. Treating you terribly in front of the children Amy: Chad is always doing small things that are unhelpful and disruptive, but he thinks no one else can see it. Now from the point of view of the 16 year old daughter, she can absolutely see it. And in my own life, I was like, isn’t that interesting? I write books about how young people see abuse, recognize it, and harmed by it. It’s not possible to do that. And while that seems unfair, he takes them to the movies. Yes, I understand he does all those things, but he also treats you terribly in front of your children, and behind your back is doing some form of counter parenting. And counter parenting is a term I only really just learned, and really understood that is what my life was made of. And I didn’t know it, because it’s all done behind your back. That’s the whole point. Turning your kids against you without even you knowing it. Because you’re so busy trying to fix him and fix the situation, and get him back to the guy he was when you got married. Who didn’t exist, by the way. So for me, the pattern of the person being abused is what I’m focusing on, because there’s domestic violence in many of my novels, even my middle grade novels for younger readers. Because that young person is in the house trying to help mom see it. And help mom escape. I guess I’m writing about my own mistakes. I’m looking at my own mistakes and saying, look, I’m putting this on the page so I can learn from it. Counter Parenting in Action: Breaking What Matters Most to You Amy: And I mean, Anne, I wrote a middle grade book called Attack of the Black Rectangles. It’s about censorship. and book banning. She still invites the ex-husband over for the sake of the child. She feeds him dinner once a week. And her father, the grandfather, lives in the basement. So it’s like an interesting kind of new family structure, and there’s this scene where the son is sitting at the table, the mom is doing some stuff in the kitchen, she’d been looking for this mug. It meant a lot to her, and she couldn’t find it anywhere. She’d asked her dad, she’d asked the son. So then this ex-husband shows up and she says, “Oh, by the way, have you seen my mug?” And he says, “I smashed it.” The kid’s sitting right at the table, and the grandfather’s too. And she said, “Wait, you mean like it broke on the way out of the dishwasher?” He goes, “No, I smashed it because I was angry.” And he kept that terrifying tone. It was interesting because when my editor read that, for some reason, that’s when he texted me and said, oh my gosh, the mug scene. And I wrote back to him, I’m like, that happened. It’s the idea that we go, he has anger issues. Really? Did he smash his boss’s mug? No. Did he smash a stranger’s mug? No. He only smashed the things that were important to you. And in the end, he takes things from the house, and the only things he takes are things from the son and the ex-wife, so it’s these sort of things I don’t have any time for anymore. Counter Parenting Disguised as Humor Normalizes Abuse Amy: I don’t have any time for it, because I got free. It’s the best thing ever. I wake up every morning going, oh, putting my hands up like I just won a race every single morning, because I’m free. And it’s wonderful. So Pick the Lock came out and I’m a weirdo too, right? So I write weird stuff, but I also write trauma, specifically, because regardless of what kind of trauma I’m putting in there, I think weirdness really helps. There’s an emotional currency in weirdness. Because when one has gone through trauma, you feel weird because the world’s like shhh, we don’t want to hear about that. “Why don’t you just solve that problem by yourself? Be cool, shhh.” And that’s a terrible way to deal with trauma. That’s how we’ve been dealing with this, is most people are kids. Everybody’s like no, but don’t talk about that. I believe people should talk about their trauma. So in Pick the Lock, it’s really about the counter parenting I learned about after the divorce. I got to tell you the story about the guy at Target, classic counter parenting and totally acceptable in our culture. This is a real like old style Rodney Dangerfield almost kind of joke. He’s got three girls. And he’s at the self checkout. The kids were probably at the most, the oldest was maybe nine and the others were pretty little, down to maybe four and he’s got the three girls there around the cart he gets some cash back. And when he takes the cash out of the machine, he goes, “And you know who we won’t give this to. Who won’t we give this money to? We won’t give this money to Mommy because all she’s gonna do is spend it.” YA character sees the abuse from a different perspective Amy: That’s not what you tell your children. If you married to her, you have her back. That’s the whole point of a partnership. This is a huge type of psychological abuse and emotional abuse that people do to children. He thinks he’s being funny. But he’s not. That’s just mean and nasty. That’s a typical sort of everyday example of what counter parenting really is. Anne: Because your books are YA and the main character is a young adult, they are seeing the abuse from a different perspective. How has that helped you process abuse? Than say, the wife of the abuser who maybe doesn’t realize what’s going on, or maybe she does and doesn’t know what to do. She’s resisting it by trying couple therapy, or she’s resisting by going to clergy, or she’s resisting in a way that’s not keeping her safe, it’s not keeping her kids safe. But it’s the best she can do, because she doesn’t understand what’s going on. Amy: Like if I look back at now 35 years of my life, it’s more than half of my life. I’m 54. So like when I look back at that amount of time and look at how many things I was lied to about, holy cow! And now I’m starting to see the small stuff, like dumb stuff. Like, this is how we paint the thing, or this is how we clean brushes. It was like, no, that’s just what you think. It’s not actually the only way to do a thing. I had to answer a question recently on a college financial aid application. Lying Is At The Core of Abuse and Counter Parenting Amy: It asked, “Is the person remarried?” I was like, no, but I almost wanted to put a question mark behind that, because I’m not sure. And, “Does the person have other children?” I’m like unknown. He lied so much. I honestly wouldn’t know. I would never intentionally hurt a person, would never take someone’s pain and use it against them. And I just listened to one of your episodes about forgiveness used against you. Some of the worst things that ever happened to me, of course, I shared those with my spouse. When you share that with a person, you expect them to keep that private for you, the way you keep things private for them. I got a lot of interesting messages in the last few years. A few of them were from women that had worked with him. They knew what they thought were secrets about me. They were lies, They weren’t secrets. He made up secrets based on the terrible things that happened to me. And told people that’s what I liked. He actually tried to pick up women by saying that I liked these weird things. And he just couldn’t do those weird things. It was like, wow, not only is that wrong, but when you share with somebody that you have been sexually assaulted or raped. And then they turn around and use that to pick up women at work. Then gets let go for serial sexual harassment. He’s a mess, just a walking, lying mess. Anne: The lying is the most important part of counter parenting. Lying is emotional and psychological abuse Anne: Determine if his character is a liar, which is an abuser, because lying is emotional and psychological abuse. You can’t process the information if you don’t have that baseline understanding. But once you realize that, everything changes. A woman might say to me, his therapist told him that I probably suffer from childhood trauma. And I always want to ask, who told you his therapist said that? Because he could literally not have gone to therapy at all. Amy: Correct. Anne: Not even have a therapist and tell you that his therapist said that, and he’s never even been to therapy. Or he could go to therapy and the therapist didn’t say that, but he chooses to say that when he gets home. This could apply to clergy. It could apply to his mom. It could apply to the neighbor. “Hey, this neighbor said this about you.” And so you’re thinking, wow, this is what the neighbor said when the neighbor never said it, or a billion other possibilities. But knowing that he’s a liar is the key to unlock all of it including counter parenting. How Counter Parenting Shows He Never Wanted to Make the Relationship Work Amy: It’s huge, that’s the key to the lock. And once you realize you can’t even answer basic questions. Because when you learn about the weird throwaway lies. And you learn about all these different lies. You realize, did he ever tell the truth? For me, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I’m just like, well, you know, childhood stuff or this or that. And eventually, my son turned to me and said, “Will you keep making excuses for him your whole life?” And I was like, no, I’m not going to keep making excuses. But I did because I wanted everything to continue working out as best as it could. Which of course it never did. Because you know what? I was the only one wanting it. and doing the stuff required for something to work out for the best. But then once I started learning all these different things he was like, I must have a mental illness. I said, go and talk to your doctor or go to therapy. And then he said, “I have this mental illness.” You must take care of me. And so I did that. I remember being in a car in some strange place at a conference for publishing. And my editor in the back of the car said, “I don’t know why you stay with this person.” Knowing the stories I had told over the years. I was always late on deadlines. Oh, life was so complicated, they keep you busy so that you can’t do anything. You can’t even think. So I’m in this car, and I say, listen, if he had MS, or if he got diagnosed with a physical illness, would I leave him? He lied about mental illness No, I would stay with him. He has this illness. Then once things were over, my ex-husband and I had a conversation, and he laughed at me and said, “I never had a mental illness.” I said, “Well, you told the kids for 10 years that you had a mental illness. You told all of us.” And he went, “Yeah, I never had that.” I said, “Then why are you so abusive?” And he actually said, “It’s just because I’m an a-hole.” And I just left it at that. But then over the years, I’m like, hold it. The reason the house is in my name is because it’s my house, It was like, “Oh, you have to put my name in the mortgage because, I have this illness and that means I have a fear of this. And you have to put it there.” And then I look all the different things that I was coerced into doing based on this lie. Anne: Yeah, because of his lie. Amy: It’s incredible. At the very end, it was like, “I have an addiction now too.” And I’m like, “Once you come out of rehab, then you go and find a halfway house.” “You can’t put me in a halfway house. I have to come home.” Really!? The keeping you busy, the keeping you worried, the keeping you hypervigilant, the keeping you just edgy all the time is part of the trick! Anne: It is, yeah. Amy: It’s the whole thing! Anne: Trying to figure out what’s wrong and how you can help them is the trick with abusers. Amy: Absolutely. What to Do When The Counter Parent Uses Truth to Keep You Stuck Anne: It’s every part of it. You’ve probably heard me talk about the Living Free Workshop. I keep talking about it, because it’s how women can take a step back and notice these are just shadows. This is not reality, because abuse and counter parenting is a character issue. Even if they’re telling the truth it’s on purpose to achieve a goal. Not because they care about you. Amy: It’s all a scheme. Anne: Exactly, so, when someone says to me, “At that point, he finally told me he had an affair.” Or at that point, he finally told me he was addicted to drugs. I’m like, he may have told you the truth, but it wasn’t the whole truth. And then why then? What benefit did it have for him at that moment? Amy: Correct, there was a moment at that 10 year mark. I had just come back from a writer’s thing. I did my laundry, exactly what I needed for four days sat there folded next to a suitcase. SoI went upstairs and put it in the suitcase, because the kids had gone to bed and came back downstairs. I said, “I’m going to leave. I’m going to stay in a hotel tonight. I’ll be back for the kids tomorrow.” If I could go back in time. Anne, there are many times from many years before then I could have gone, but if I could go back in time, that’d be the night. But what happened was the talk happened. And I said, “You’re saying the same stuff as you always say. Unless you have something new to say.” False Mental illness as an excuse Amy: And that’s when he hooked me in with, I really need to take care of him. Even more than I’d already done. But it was convenient. Like you said, “Why right then is he saying that? There’s a reason, and it’s usually to keep you there.” That’s it, period. Also because he’s called you a liar so many times. And once you’re gaslit for 28 years, you’re so hyper vigilant about telling the truth that you will tell the whole story, including every single detail. I do it all the time, drives me nuts. You’ll still believe the things that they say. I’m a few years divorced. And, I actually had 7 strokes in about 26 hours. Anne: Wow. Amy: I’m fine. I went to my physical therapy, I I got my right side back, everything works. Anne: I’m so glad you’re okay. Amy: I’m still a little weak, and I still use the cane if I’m feeling extra tired. But anyway, I’m fine. So because I’m a writer and artist. I have a beautiful group of colleagues and friends in the business. And also I’m a hundred percent self employed. It’s check to check. I don’t know how I do it, but when news went out that I had a stroke and they knew I was in the hospital, one of my friends started a GoFundMe. To fund the few months for recovery, and go to physical therapy, and learn how to use my right side again and balance. Same time, I was planning a few things for the summer. Experiencing financial abuse from counter parenting Amy: My son and I were going to go to Europe. Once I was on the meds and my second checkup. I had said to the doc, “Is this dangerous or is this smart?” They’re like, “No, you’re good. You can do that. So we had to let Dad, know. And magically, about two weeks later, I got a child support review. And I’m like, that’s some pretty bad timing. He knows I’m going to be in Europe. He’s said, no, this is just because I don’t want to get into arrears. And I said, “Oh, how big was the raise you got?” And it wasn’t much. I really thought that he didn’t want to get into arrears until the phone call three months later. And he says something about the GoFundMe money. Anne: Ohhh!. Amy: It had nothing to do with his arrears. Let me get this straight. I’m 100 percent raising your child. Your wages are minimally garnished. Believe me, there were no lawyers involved in this. This is literally the minimum. And I am definitely paying, especially this year. Senior year, you’re paying so much more, but you came after the money my friends collected for me after I had a stroke and continued to raise your child. That is counter parenting. Anne: Yup. Amy: Like he had to help me get in and out of the car and you’re trying to take the little money we have. What is the issue? But by then I already knew. I knew this was a liar. But it still I swear it took me another two months. Abusers always have a goal Amy: One day I was just sitting here going, that’s why he brought that up. Now in hindsight, I can tell the story the way I just did. But in the middle, between the phone call hearing and two months after, I’ve been like, it was really weird. He asked about this, I can’t believe he asked about this.I’m like, girl, that is why he did it in the first place. What is it about you that believes people all the time? And it’s because I am a nice person. It’s that simple. Anne: Because they always have a goal, and you don’t know what that goal is. Amy: Right, it’s the scheme again. Anne: It’s so impossible, you’re not ever doing anything wrong. You’re just being a normal person. Amy: Keeping the house together, keeping the kids fed. I was pretty much the breadwinner for all those years. With the travel and just having to work all the time. He had more time to be with the kids to do his counter parenting. I have journals and wow, some of the things I wrote down. I look at it now and I’m like, wow, I believed that when I wrote it and that wasn’t true. The biggest thing I learned is how it is a mindset, how if someone’s always scheming, they’re always going to be scheming. It doesn’t matter whether they’re in the supermarket and they are shoplifting or if they are, getting a job but they’re lying about their past. If they’re trying to figure out how to fake a vaccination that they didn’t get so that they can go to work, or whatever the heck it is. We are safe now Amy: Like, it’s always a scheme. It’s just how their brains work. Anne: Yeah, and they’ll scheme about things they don’t even need to scheme about. Amy: Exactly, and it gets worse. That was the one thing I didn’t understand. There’s so many things I love when you put your messaging out on Instagram and other places. When you say things like, “Once you figure out that you’re being abused, don’t tell the abuser he’s an abuser.” That is the best advice ever because you know what I did? I loaned, Why Does He Do That to my abuser. And then he learned more tricks. That’s all he learned from that book. It’s only going to get worse. We used to have a thing because of that book. I’m like, are you a 4% er or are you not a 4% er? I want to be a 4% er. I have texts and screenshots. While he was forcibly kissing so and so. Now I know what he was doing at that time, he will use all that stuff against you. He’s digging a hole or painting himself into a corner. But of course, he’s getting me to talk to him. So his digging is effective. I’m still talking to him about how he should or shouldn’t dig or paint himself into a corner and kind of going, Oh, you paint yourself into a corner. Instead of… Anne: Safety, Amy: Safety, exactly, yes. Thank you. Yes, exactly. That is why when I wake up in the morning, I do put my arms up and I’m like, yes! Every time because we are safe now. Realizing I can’t do it anymore with counter parenting Amy: This is a person who, at times said certain things like, “I know why you’re terrified of me. I wasn’t going to kill you, kill you. I was hoping you’d do me the favor.” Anne: What? Amy: And you’re there like, wow. And he teamed up with other people. He looked for allies in his hatred for me. This is weird story but here you go. I lived in a farm in Ireland a long time and rats do a thing that mice don’t do. If a rat is caught in a trap, his family friends will pull that trap down into the hole and have him for dinner. And that’s kind of how I feel about the whole thing of counter parenting. That’s what you’re dealing with. But you’re like, I’m not dealing with that. This is a nice guy, the guy that loves me. But where is he showing it? I remember the day I realized like, Ooh. I can’t do this anymore. My mom and dad had just had their 60th anniversary. They both came from interesting backgrounds, but they did make it work. And, my father’s taking care of my mom while she’s in a bad state. Looking at what love really looks like, I couldn’t get sick, I’m sure there are people nodding right now. I wasn’t allowed to get sick. If I got sick, I was in trouble. It wasn’t that real overt stuff. It was always covert, it was always a little bit snide a little side eye. And looking at my dad love my mom so much. Finding out what really happened Amy: It’s amazing. But I remember when they hit their 60th and my mom was talking to me. And I’m like, Oh I can’t get to 60, I can’t. I got out of there at 29, it just keeps getting worse and the lies get worse. And then, after, you walk away and find safety, you will learn a lot more about what really happened when you thought it was something else. Don’t feel foolish. It’s not your fault. Anne: Totally, with counter parenting. Amy: You didn’t do anything wrong. All you did was trust a person. There’s nothing wrong with that. Anne: Can you talk about where you were when you started writing Pick the Lock? Like your mindset, the process you went through to write it? Amy: Like any other book, it starts way earlier than when the actual writing starts. It started with a post-it note, “If you can imagine like a zigzag, you could imagine a hamster tube with two 45 degree bends. At one of those bends, there was a chair, and then it just said “system”. I made that post-it note when I realized, thanks to my kids being open with me. And talking to me about the things their father told them about me. I thought my narrative and who I was in my life was clear. But I didn’t realize that while I was in the kitchen, they could be pulled aside in the room right next to the kitchen and told terrible lies about me. And so they had to deal with that. Many, women are like, “Well, he’s a terrible husband, but he’s a great father.” Poisoning and redefining my family Amy: And I will say again, those two things cannot coexist. Because that person is cruelly treating their mother in front of them. You, you can’t keep these things from the children. It’s not a woman’s fault to stay and try and try and try ’cause that’s what we do. People tell us to try. In reality, those kids know what’s going on. Then they’re sometimes extra confused. Because so often this is how counter parenting happens. I did not know how common it was until I started talking about it with people, groups, and other women. It turns out that this is something that’s quite common. So I wanted to write about it. Because that little hamster tube with the chair in it was me. It was the narrative. A visual representation of what it was like to not control my own narrative, even though I literally lived it. Like show, don’t tell, which is a real writing thing. You show, you don’t tell. So I lived it and showed it. I was the breadwinner. I was doing all these great things for my family. But while I was gone doing those great things to be able to feed my family. Someone who really wanted control and power over that narrative redefined my family. Anne: Almost poisoned. Amy: Yeah, absolutely. When you lie, when you lie to a child, I don’t care what it’s about. When you lie to a child for your own gain. That’s a certain kind of poison, no doubt. counter parenting: The Book is told through a 16 year old’s viewpoint Anne: Yeah, so I wanna talk about the book, without giving too much away. So I’ll only talk about what happened in the beginning, the motifs or symbolism. I think the tube situation is obvious, the symbolism there where you are separated and isolated, even though you’re still in the same home. Amy: Correct, you’re right there in the same room. You eat dinner with your family, but he isolates you through counter parenting. Absolutely, that’s part of it too, right? So it’s weird, those tubes represented so many things. This happens with books when you’re a writer. The longer you’re away from a book, the more you see in it. You’re like, oh, wow! I basically personified the patriarchy and then drowned it. That was satisfying. If only it was that easy in real life. The story starts with Jane, the story is told through a 16-year-old daughter’s point of view. And Jane has just discovered she calls them home movies. But it’s really security footage from inside her home for the last 20 years. It’s long before she was born. That’s when she starts seeing everything she heard about her family. Or even the person telling her, her father, everything she ever knew about her family was a lie. And she’s furious as anyone would be. I think that also represents what a lot of us go through once we separate and divorce or we walk away from somebody who’s been abusive. I honestly only yesterday, found out a new tidbit. It just keeps happening. She finds out the truth Amy: Anyway, Jane has access to a cloud. Where all these movies are, and the more movies she watches, she has to do what we all do. She has to question her memories. She’s like, Ooh, I know I was four when this one counter parenting thing happened. Or I know, I was this age when this one thing happened. And she’s going through that years’ footage and those particular rooms, ’cause there’s, four or five cameras that she’s aware of. She’s trying to find these memories she has. And she can’t find them or she finds partial ones, or most importantly, she keeps finding new ones that she doesn’t have as memories, but now they’re right there in front of her. And it really explains her parents’ relationship. It explains everything she blamed her mom for, because that’s what she was told to do. And encouraged to do. It shows the truth. The idea of people not believing you, and of doubting your own memories and all those things. It’s such a big deal. Over the decades I’ve been publishing, people will say, “Why do you write for teenagers?” And I’m like, “They’re not taken seriously.” So as a woman in this society, I can tell you that I have a lot in common with teenagers. I’m a woman. The story then goes on, her mother is in these tubes in the house. You nailed it. You can be at a table, and we know that we’re somehow not part of this family. And yet, we made this family. And we’re not welcome. I always felt unwelcome, I guess is a good way to put it. Women help other people before we help ourselves Amy: I was told so many things about how unlovable I was. And a lot of the lines said to Jane are verbatim, actually five of my journals. You’re so impossible to love. I think it’s important that we put it right out in the open. Because again, once I start talking about it, the amount of people that are like, “Oh yeah, that happened to me,” And it’s kind of wild, and it’s time to talk about it. But then I also think the tubes represent the thing that women do when we are in strife. We usually help other people. We help other people before we help ourselves. At least I know that’s true for me, and probably true for most of the women I know. But more importantly, we can take a prison and turn it into some kind of a win. We can take something terrible and somehow survive in it. Take a controlled environment, and we can make a win out of it as long as we work together. Women are the most willing caretakers of the patriarchy. Anne: Yeah, without us, it wouldn’t even exist. Amy: Correct, if we didn’t follow all the rules and if we weren’t pitted against each other. If we weren’t, trying to win the popularity contest at our places of choice, whether that be a church, just the neighborhood, in the family. I remember that at one point in my family, we have a few cousins and siblings. And I remember one of them going, “Well, you know, I did this first, I got married first.” What is that about? I got married first. What is it? Upholding an opressive system with counter parenting Amy: What is, I have to have the baby first? I remember someone saying, “She kind of pressured me because she had to have a baby, right then.” And I’m like, why? But this is all patriarchy, this is all controlled. They have us pitted, and it’s the exact same. We have a larger model in the country of pitting. You pit people who are at the bottom against each other, and you can do whatever you want at the top. And that’s what we’re talking about inside a house and inside a culture. Anne: I think it’s important to point out that people back women into this corner. I really believe they’re trying to survive. And because they don’t know of any other way to survive, they don’t have the words for it. They don’t have the way to process the abuse and counter parenting. They are trying to succeed in the best way in the environment they are aware of. So it’s not like they’re not on their own side. It’s just that because they’re living in a house of mirrors or tubes or whatever metaphor we wanna use. Like, “I’m gonna be the best brownie maker here.” Because that’s the only world they have. So they uphold what they don’t know is a system oppressing them, but at least they are trying to succeed in that space. So giving women credit for how powerful and ingenious they are when they don’t know what’s going on, I think, is important. Because once they hopefully can wrap their heads around what is actually happening, I think that helps them say, whoa. whoa, whoa. If you need support from other women who have been through it, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session. Interpreting the book Anne: What I’ve been doing actually has not been for me, I’ve been exploited. And dealt with counter parenting. I love the quote from Maya Angelou, where she says, “Of course I’m a feminist. I’m a woman. Why would I not be on my own side?” I’m paraphrasing. I wanna talk about the symbolism of this Victorian home, because that was interesting to me. The juxtaposition between a Victorian home and all this Victorian furniture representing the past, I’m guessing. That’s another thing I love about literature. Even though you’re the author, I could have my own interpretation. Amy: That is the whole point. Once it leaves my desk, it’s up to you. And that is, you have to let go of the ownership. I actually just did a commencement speech at an art school on Friday, and I said, “What a relief. Once it’s on someone else’s wall, it’s not your business anymore.” They may say, “Oh, I’d love this painting of raindrops.” And it’s absolutely about the worst night of your life, but you can’t tell them that. They think it’s raindrops, who cares? But you’re right, it’s open interpretation. Anne: I did wanna talk to you about this part ’cause I had interpreted it this way and I’m very anxious and curious to hear what your thoughts are. But representing the past and this mother, whose vocation is rock star. She is popular culture. She’s a feminist. She fights against oppression, living every day. So this juxtaposition of this woman who is, I guess to the masses, someone who, and I’m seeing this in you a little bit. That this is, because you were kind of living this life. Juxtaposition of rock star and victorian home Anne: Where you’re talking about feminism and trying to help women out while you’re living in an abusive relationship, but you didn’t know that you were. So I can definitely see the parallels there. But just having talked to you, I was like… Amy: Well, I don’t mind. Anne: Oh my word. I can see all this. But that was so fascinating to me, that juxtaposition between this woman who’s a rock star, who’s living in this Victorian home, and basically siloed there and silenced. Because of counter parenting and abuse. Amy: Okay. So the first thing you have to understand, Anne, is that I am a bit of a weirdo. I write books using the surrealist method, meaning I don’t know what the book is about until I start writing. Jane, the main character, she will show me the way. And that’s how it works. I have to follow her. So when suddenly there’s a rat talking in first person, I’m like, well, I suppose we’ll figure out who this rat is. We just move forward and hope to God we know. I had an idea of who the rat was. So it’s not like I’m going into it completely blindfolded, because as you write, you figure out what the book is about. But in the case of the Victorian thing, every time I tried to open this book, I tried the opening about three or four times, maybe more. And Jane had her name pretty early. And she kept coming out with this sort of twee proper Victorian voice. I was like, what is up with this? Like, this is not my voice. Usually I’m not that voice. And then one day, I explain the world explaining the writing process to people of all ages. Counter parenting: Metaphor of the tubes Amy: And I always say, ” Use your own anger. Anger is a big one. Use your sadness too. Sure, use your happiness, use your joy, use all those things. But something was said to me about God knows something. And if you’ve read the prologue? Anne: I have. Yeah. It was so good. I loved it. Amy: You’ll understand that, God knows, is a punch in the teeth. Because when you have someone say to you, who has no business saying what God knows. I’m sorry, regardless of my religion or any of that, like, God is a large, beautiful, wonderful, universal thing. No, you won’t, get that word outta your mouth. And so, I was angry, and I wrote four really bad poems. Then I was like, Ooh, and open up the file and just went. And that’s when Jane started. That’s when that formed. But more importantly. I could see Vernon, Jane’s father, in my mind’s eye, and I could see him with a pocket watch. He’s a fake, he’s a phony. And the mother inherited the Victorian house. And so it’s her family home and the tubes were already in it, you see? Because a generation before her, that man controlled his wife in that home. And then after he died, she got to hang out in that house with that woman. Never thinking she would be put into the tubes. And actually, that’s one of the things that Jane realizes too, at 16, oh crap, I’m next. So really it’s those tubes are a metaphor for so many things in counter parenting. everything was perfect from the outside Amy: It really is being a woman trapped in the patriarchy. But I chose Victorian because it seemed perfect. It’s a perfect place to hide bad habits, because it’s so luscious. It’s got velvet curtains, beautiful style, big roomy rooms and high ceilings, and everything’s so proper. They serve dinner at the dining table, and they have a cook. It’s all these things that are so proper. It seemed the perfect setting. And doesn’t it from the outside? Always, The amount of people that have said to me, but I thought everything was perfect. Yes, that’s because I was covering and trying so hard. But no, it wasn’t perfect. And there’s that second home movie. Where he’s being so overly, we’re just gonna use the word love bombing. Because listeners will know what that means, but he is just being so overly like saccharine and sugary and laying it on so thick. And Jane, the narrator, has to say, you may think this man in this scene is taking place a hundred years ago. But actually, Mina’s in a pair of ripped up jeans and a ripped up t-shirt. It’s just this interesting way that he acts to hide everything, including himself. Anne: I loved how you portrayed him as shorter. And I did not get the impression he was like crazy attractive. I liked that about it. To me, it really spoke to how sneaky they are, I wanna say, they seem like such good, ordinary people. And that I found very compelling. Amy: That’s the point. I’m glad that came through the counter parenting. That makes me happy to hear. Finding all the Lies Amy: Because that is again, we go back to those home movies, we go back to this young woman who’s 16 and everything, she believes. And when in the home movies, she also shows how terrible she was based on this influence. So she treated her mom like garbage a lot. And she feels terrible for it, but at the time she thought she was absolutely doing the right thing. Because she was told, “Your mother doesn’t love you. Your mother wants to kill you. Your mother wants all these things.” And of course, she thinks, “Well screw her.” And she’s treating her in these ways, and now she’s finding it was bull all along. Anne: So it’s interesting that you describe the Victorian home as perfect. And I was, of course, layering my own experience onto what I read and how I interpret it. But in my mind, it was very dusty. There was too much stuff. Like an arrangement of dried flowers, for example. Or the curtains were just very heavy. Everything felt very oppressive to me. ‘Cause as I read it, I was getting kind of anxiety every time it was described. I just thought, oh, this place is stifling and suffocating. Amy: That’s perfect. It’s still decorated in Victorian, except I see the kitchen as modern in my head. I think it’s a perfect juxtaposition with this large plexiglass tube in the corner. And the fact that there’s a woman in there. And if you really think about what that represents, especially in Jane’s world. Where, she for years looked over there and was so angry at this woman. Because of all these lies she was told about her. counter parenting: Children and divorce Amy: Then when she realizes she’s been lied to, then she’s terrified she’s gonna be the next person. I think that is a metaphor that spans many different types of fears that happen inside of young people’s heads when they’re in that space. I just got off of a different interview, and I was talking about this moment. My son came home one time and talked about what it’s like to be children of divorced parents. And then he said, “Well, then there’s the other group.” And I’m like, oh, “What’s the other group?” He said, “Children of parents who should be divorced.” And he goes, “I remember being in that group, and I’m glad I’m in this group now.” He was probably 14 or so when he said that, he is like, “’cause that group is sadder. They’re more scared. They’re in a space where everything’s still some kind of limbo. At least here there’s been some type of closure.” It’s quite a powerful conversation to have with a young person who’s that self-aware. And also that aware of their surroundings and counter parenting. I know there’s obviously children of fantastic families, that everything’s functioning correctly. I don’t wanna only categorize the two, but that’s how he did. And teenagers often go very black and white. And that’s what he said. I found it interesting that they truly have these conversations. Gen Z is so smart. And they are very aware. Children are incredibly resilient. The biggest fear I had once I had children was, children have to have two parents. And that’s what I was told many times. That this is the way it works. A child needs one solid parent Amy: And then more than one person has said to me, no, no, a child needs one solid parent. And they’re gonna be okay. Hearing that over and over again, and knowing that I’m solid. I’m not here looking to have relationships right now. I have to parent, that is my job. Anne: In that way, I didn’t think of it until you were just describing this, but that Victorian setting also kind of represents a level of maturity that a child can gain from this environment. Amy: Oh yes, the parentification, absolutely. Anne: It’s like an old wisdom that they’ll have, wisdom beyond their years, that kind of a thing. Amy: Yep, and not the kind you want them to have, but it’s sadly what they get. Both my kids, wise beyond their years. Because, part of their childhood never happened. Because they were so busy listening for footfalls and whether they were angry, footfalls. Whether they were sneaky counter parenting footfalls, they were so busy trying to figure out, is this person walking up or down the steps? Going to do something erratic? And on the other side, looking at mom being like, what’s gonna be her excuse today? And it sounds harsh, I know that, but it’s also very real. Kids are honest. As much we peg them as liars, same as women. We go back to what I have in common with teenagers. In actual fact, I think that everyone’s closest to the truth. Outta the mouth, the babes we say. I remember the first time I sat the kids down and said, “There’s gonna be a separation.” We need to give children credit Amy: And my eldest said, “Oh God, I’ve been waiting for this since I was seven.” And I just thought, “Oh my gosh, take note of that. Take note of the guts it took to say that out loud, at that time.” Which have been considered inappropriate, but not really. This is, however old she was at the time, 13-year-old or something. So the first thing I think we have to discuss when it comes to young people is that A, we don’t give them a lot of credit. It’s one of the reasons I’m a fierce advocate for teenagers. With counter parenting going on. We take things away from them versus giving them credit. But more importantly, we would have maybe taken a comment like that out of context and said, classic dramatic thing for a teenager to say. But in actual fact, she was serious. She saw things since she was seven that made her go, this isn’t cool. She was getting pulled aside and having things said to her about me, but I didn’t know that then. And I don’t know what else. When you’re in it, you can’t figure out what to do, especially because it is so confusing. You’re so confused, mostly because this person is looking at you, saying, no, I really am that guy that I was. And then it acts differently, or I really do love you, but then does something fiercely not loving. So it’s just constant confusion, because you’re trying to make sense of something that doesn’t make sense. And the reason it doesn’t make sense is because they’re lies. That’s why, because you’re being lied to. Anne: A hundred percent. counter parenting with secrets Amy: It’s kind of amazing when we look at children and how unbelievably mature they are. And that Victorian setting and what eventually we learn happens to the little brother. I haven’t mentioned Henry yet. Since we have listeners who have not read this book, little brothers named Henry. He’s a few years younger than Jane. And Henry, because it’s Victorian times. He’s treated well because he’s a boy, isn’t he? And he’s Vernon’s boy, but he is not given the secrets. So this is another part of what we’re talking about when it comes to counter parenting. We’ve got the parent who’s in control of the family. Who’s like, “I’ll let you in on a secret.” So that’s where the lies come to. “Let me tell you about your mother. Lemme tell you about this stuff, or these stories.” But more importantly, they’re let in on things that they shouldn’t be let in on too early. So whether it be, Hey, have a sip of my beer. Or do you wanna toke off this joint, or do you wanna try cigarettes or whatever it is. I don’t have another word for it, that’s just grooming. That happens so often in families like ours. Where it’s just, grooming is to get control period, that’s the point. It’s not there to get someone to think for themselves. Because an author for young people whose books have been banned. that word is thrown at me, and I’m like, “Listen, I write the book to help kids see themselves in books.” That’s it. And to talk about the truth. But that word is thrown at me. I’m not trying to control anybody. finding solutions Amy: But when someone tells me what my kids can read, oddly enough, that’s you trying to control somebody. And that’s what grooming is for. Henry, is, very obviously groomed by his father, and is the favorite simply because he’s a boy, but is also very openly neglected. And is a tragedy in the making really, with counter parenting. I see him doing okay once the bad influence is out of the house and away from him. But what that man did, it’s the collateral damage. It’s the stray bullet. He may be aiming at the women in the house, right? Because he hates women. We need to get down to the fact that so many men hate women. If they don’t face it, talk about it and correct it in a way that makes them somehow compatible with women. They’re gonna ruin the women that they’re with. Anne: Well, it’s bad for everyone. It’s not just bad for women. It’s really bad for them too, because that’s 50% of the population that they don’t take seriously. Amy: There’s that. And if we get into the patriarchy, the men suffer. I don’t wanna say they suffer more from it, but we’re really used to it. So women are really used to it. We’re like, “Yeah, I know my place. I know they’re gonna tell me what to do. They’re gonna take away my healthcare. I know they’re gonna do these things to try and control me.” And we tend to find great ways through. We figure out how to get around these things so that we can continue going to college. We find solutions. Handling patriarchy Amy: As people who raise whole families while also doing 12 other things. We all know we’re the problem solvers. Anne: Also from behind the scenes, we’re solving all the problems, just not getting the credit for it. Amy: Correct, I don’t wanna say we can handle the patriarchy, but we’ve lived in it so long. Men on the other hand, fare terribly from the patriarchy. The lies they’re told from the beginning of time limit them so much. I met a young man recently, and he was very distraught, upset. I said, “Hey, yo, what’s going on?” He started to cry. He said, “My father told me that I’m if I cry.” And I was like, “Well, your father was wrong. You can cry. Here’s a tissue.” Gave him a big hug. And he really couldn’t tell me what was wrong with him without putting himself down at least 20 times, just for having emotions. And I thought, he’s 30. This human being can’t process grief, which was legitimate at that moment, without hurting himself, because the men in his life and culture told him all the wrong things. Along with counter parenting. In books, I put a scene there, where boys list who they wanna kiss. And it’s a secret list. And then they run up to them and kiss ’em without permission to runaway. Now, I was kid in the seventies. This happened all the time, happened to my kids. My kids both got, same thing. Boy runs up to him, bam, kisses them. Maybe it’s a dare. This stuff comes early in life. If some second grader is running toward my child to kiss my child because he likes her, someone missed an opportunity to tell their child that’s not what happens. counter parenting: Loneliness epidemic Amy: You don’t do that. But this is what the culture is. And especially once she has your babies, you own her. She has to do what you say and act the way you want. If every five minutes what you want changes is she somehow has to keep up with that. I felt like I was tap dancing for three decades. We get these headlines about the male loneliness epidemic. Or what you believe women owe you. I’m like, no offense, but maybe if you’d stop being terrible. Anne: Yeah sorry, I can’t stand those articles. And with counter parenting, I’m like, what in the world is happening? Amy: I’d like to ask, a bunch of married women if there’s a loneliness epidemic for married women. There’s an epidemic for you. There’s been centuries of married women who are lonelier than ever. Maybe if men looked after that, maybe if that was written about. Men would go, “Oh.” But they wouldn’t, because the culture tells them to go phffft. And then women say anything. It’s all a trap, and we’re all trapped in it. Every single one of us, every woman, man, child, everybody, every person is trapped in it. It’s a construct. And this is one of the reasons I live in a little artist’s bubble. Anne: Speaking of the prologue, hit me really hard. Because the book that I’m writing is all about lies. I know I talk about how pornography is abusive but it really does, and my whole book is about this, come down to the lies. Lies on top of lies Anne: Because if they didn’t lie, then he would say, “Hi, I am only interested in you because you have this Victorian home that has these tubes, and I know that if I marry you, I can use you for all this and I can stick you in one of them. So you seem like the perfect wife for me.” Amy: Yes. Anne: “Do you wanna marry me?” That would be the truth. And then she could say, “No, I don’t.” But the whole thing is built on lies, lies on top of lies. In my book, I say this one part, “Let’s just talk about pornography without the lies. Because they lie to us about porn or their affairs or other things that they’re lying to us about. Then I’m like, wait, the whole pornography industry is a lie. There are so many layers of lies on top of lies. And without the lies, we could give consent. Some women might choose that, but so many women would be like, “I don’t want to marry you. If you have a mistress that you live with in an apartment.” Amy: Anne, I need to tell you, it was your Instagram that made me understand informed consent in such a great way. And it really changed my mind about what I’d been living through. And realizing how many women are lied to, but also having sexual relationships with people who are lying to them. Therefore, they are not informed, so that consent is null. And in the future, when they learn about the lies, all of those experiences are going to have a different flavor. Told the truth from the beginning Amy: And it will feel exactly what it felt at the time, but you couldn’t say it out loud. Anne: Right, it felt like that, but because you didn’t understand what was happening. You defined it the best way that you could. Maybe you put a silver lining on it. Maybe you explained this is how it works because you had no other way to process it. So in your processing it to empower yourself, which was your intention, it just played into the lies without you knowing. Which is so unfortunate, but that’s their intent. That’s what they want. Amy: Absolutely, the lie is everything. And that’s why the book starts with the lies. The older I get, the more I realize this. And I remember hitting my forties and going, oh, and now I’m in my fifties. I’m like, oh, this doesn’t end. Everything’s about the lies that we’re taught. And on a larger level in the culture in our families, before we get into a relationship, and then inside the relationship with counter parenting. But I love how you said if they just told the truth from the beginning, imagine they were like, look, I just wanna piss my wife off and you’re under 40. And I think that if we dated, that would work out great. And in a way, sometimes I appreciate the guys on online dating. They’re like, I’m just into fun casual dates. That’s code. And we know it. But some of them actually mean it literally, that’s the funny part. They don’t realize that there’s other men out there who don’t mean it that way. I appreciate that they can at least admit it. counter parenting: The guy you married never existed Amy: Something that my mother said to me. Her father was a severe alcoholic. He died of complications from alcoholism. He was also an abusive man. She said to me, “Amy, my father wasn’t an abuser because he was an alcoholic. He was an alcoholic because he was an abuser.” Anne: Yeah. Amy: And when you take someone who’s a truly benevolent human being. Who really just believes in the good in people, wants to have a great family, wants to be a great wife, wants to buy the Christmas gifts, and you put them with someone who is so callously lying all the time. She has to see a person she fell in love with. Always like you’re looking for the guy you married. He never existed, it wasn’t real. And that is a really hard thing to come to terms with, because you remember it. I have a bonus of having kept journals my whole life. And I always said the first year was the one good year I had. It’s packed with all these notes and love letters. And I pulled one of them out and in it, in that year one, it was me pleading for forgiveness, for having hormones. Now, I was raised in a family where three girls and my mother was a high ranking administrator in a school system. You did not use hormones as an excuse ever. And that’s not for me to take it away from people who have, definite mood swings because of hormones. The fact that’s held against us is ridiculous, ’cause look at the erratic, hormonal swings of men. But I really didn’t have those sorts of swings. Journal helps determine what really happened Amy: I can check what happened in year one. Look, it wasn’t as great as I thought it was. He was already grooming me to start blaming everything on me and all the responsibility. Also, I can see all the moves of isolation. So, that is the one thing that did get me to see what was going on . I wrote down every time anything happened that made me feel terrible, degraded me, or was abuse. And when I started keeping a log, it was very obvious what had to happen. This is why I think abusers keep you so busy. Anne: Yeah, so you can’t notice. I was gonna tell you, so my book, that I am almost done writing, I am more of a essay writer. So writing an actual 350 page book was like the worst, I have to say. I think you’re amazing. But, it’s the reason why. When you said, “I’d love someone to research.” Over the past year, I went through all of my podcast interviews again and listened to them. Like a research study. So based on all those interviews and all my experience with our clients and interacting with women over the years. I’m almost done. I really wanna get it right. Amy: And it’s good for research too. Getting it right is the thing. Anne: The whole thing including counter parenting is just about the lies. Amy: Amen, thank you. That’s great. You’ve brought to me in this podcast just today, the lies, right? No matter what, no matter how many times I go through it, or how many times I think about it, the lies that you find out about afterward are unbelievable. There are people in the world who want to use you Amy: You could have said to me, would he ever do this? I would’ve said, never in my life will he do that. What’s interesting is that he probably said, oh, well she did that, never did that. I travel for a living. I had the opportunity to cheat a million times. Never did, not like I had the opportunity. I never looked for it. I’m sort of a dork who wants to be in my hotel room by myself. And it’s cool to order room service, and then I work. That’s it, I work. So I don’t wanna do that. Most people think that other people think like they do. And one of the things I get asked, “What do you wish you knew when you were our age?” I said, “This is gonna sound heavy, but I mean it too. And you guys are teenagers, so you’re gonna get it . Here’s the deal. Everybody tells you to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, especially if you happen to be born female. You wanna give everybody the benefit of the doubt. You have to be nice, kind, sweet to everybody. And you have to accept all this behavior. And anybody who’s being rude, they just don’t mean it. Anybody who’s being mean, they just don’t mean it. They don’t know how mean they’re being. That’s not true. What’s true is that there are people in the world that want to hurt you, break you down, make you theirs, control you, lie about you, use counter parenting, and they wanna use you. The sooner you know that, the better. Because I didn’t figure that out till I was 50.” counter parenting: Nobody knew what to do Amy: And not just when it came to my romantic life, there were other people in my life who were very close to me, since I was a very young person who were doing that to me. So everything’s a lie. Why is it so hard to get help? When I finally had the guts to pick up the phone and I was 3,000 miles away from home, isolated and call the people closest to me. Whether they were family or friends, and say to them, but especially the family, this is what’s happening. This is what’s really going on. I don’t know what to do, I need help. I need to get out of here. Nobody knew what to do. Anne: Right, exactly. Amy: That’s why Mina, Jane’s mother, does what she does. She helps people because nobody knew what to do. And it was as simple as send me a plane ticket. And I didn’t know to ask that though. I didn’t know to say I need a plane ticket. I’d only just said this for the first time after seven or eight years of this. And at that point, I was so beaten down as a human being, completely didn’t even know who I was anymore. And I’m a strong, confident person, always have been in so many ways. I had no idea what to ask for, and no one knew what to offer. And if I could tell women out there, listen, the minute you’re 15 years old, this is what happens. They’re all your sisters. I don’t even care if they were the one competing with you yesterday. I don’t care if they were the one that was putting you down yesterday. We need to help other women Amy: If they say, yo, I’m in this situation. What do I do? We all learn the answer. And try and help other women out because the more I am in the world, and the more I realize that this is way more common than the other, the perfect ideal relationship is a beautiful thing. I know a few people in it, and is it the hardest work they ever did? Absolutely, man, it doesn’t come easy. But they have two adult people working toward the same thing. That is rare. That’s what I’m finding. The older I get, now that I can eat the senior meal at the diner. And I can tell you what, man, I don’t know many people who are in that situation, most are not. Anne: Yeah, I could talk to you forever. You are incredible. So I’m like, oh, I can’t wait to talk to you again. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode to talk about counter parenting. Amy: Anne, I’m always so happy to be on your side. Yeah, you’re doing great work. Thank you for what you do. Really in a huge way. And thanks for the conversation. You’re awesome, you rock. To be on this show and to be part of anyone’s journey to healing. It’s the most important thing in the world, fiction helps. Thank you

Transcribed - Published: 13 January 2026

Co-parenting with a narcissist seems impossible. I know I’ve been there. If your husband or ex is narcissistic, here are 7 ways your he might try to undermine you and your kids, along with 7 ways to overcome it. To find out how bad it is, see which of the 19 different emotional abuse tactics he uses. Take our free emotional abuse quiz. The 7 Ways A Narcissist Will Undermine Co-Parenting Gaslighting: Narcissistic men are good at making you doubt yourself. They might say you’re overreacting when you’re not. They may say your helicopter parenting when you’re not. Be on the lookout for how he tries to undermine your self confidence. Using The Kids To Hurt You: A narcissistic ex may manipulate the kids to hurt you. Or they may want to go into chaos, and so they undermine the children’s medical care, extra curricular activities, or school work. Playing the victim: Narcissistic men might twist things to make themselves look like the victim. They may exaggerate situations to get sympathy from others and make you seem like the bad one. Undermining your authority: They might try to take control by making decisions without asking you. Or tell your children that you’re not smart or not a good parent. Using money as leverage: A narcissistic ex could use money to control you by withholding child support or making unfair demands. Seeking revenge: Narcissistic men may hold grudges and act out of spite. Lack of empathy: A narcissistic husband or ex won’t understand or care about your feelings. This will make co-parenting with a narcissistic parent really hard. How Do Stay Sane When CO-Parenting With A Narcissistic Parent Co-parenting with a narcissistic parent requires a strategic and mindful approach. Here are seven ways to make the process more tolerable: 1. Know Communication Won’t Help When Co-Parenting With A Narcissist Since communication is just another way for the narcissist to manipulate us, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we’ve learned that we can’t count on communication to resolve anything. It helps when you know that communication won’t do anything to stop him from causing chaos. Instead, use effective boundaries that don’t need to be “communicated”, like the ones we teach in The Living Free Workshop. 2. Learn About Strategic Boundaries To learn how to set boundaries strategically, consider enrolling in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. “I’d been to so many therapists. They just kept telling me to “set boundaries”. What a joke. It never worked. But then I enrolled in The Living Free Workshop at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and holy cow do these ladies know what they’re doing. I could tell immediately they’d been through it. And figured out safety from these dudes. Thanks so much BTR!!!” 3. Use a Parenting App when co-parenting with a narcissist Parenting apps can help, because everything is documented. There are calendars and info banks to use to limit communication as much as possible. 4. How Do You Co Parent with a Narcissist When He Undermines Everything? Prioritize Self-Care Taking care of your own physical and emotional well-being is crucial when co-parenting with a narcissistic parent. Engage in activities that bring you joy and relaxation, and seek support from friends, family, or an online support group for women. 5. Focus on Your Children’s Well-being Keep your focus on what’s best for your children. Avoid hurting your children by promoting their narcissistic dad’s behavior as “love”. Instead, say, “I’m so sorry. I felt that way too. He hurt me too. I’m sorry he doesn’t seem capable enough to love someone as lovable as you.” 6. Develop a Support Network Surround yourself with a supportive network of friends, family, and professionals who understand your situation and can offer guidance and encouragement. If you need support, here’s our daily group session schedule. 7. When Co-Parenting With A Narcissistic parent, Stay Informed Educate yourself about narcissistic behavior and its impact on co-parenting. Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to hear other women’s stories and how they coped. transcript: 7 Ways To Make Co-Parenting With A Narcissist Tolerable Anne: Tammy Guns is here today. She’s going to share her story. She started her career in auditing and accounting for two big four public accounting firms. Then she served in leadership roles in large scale healthcare organizations before her career as a certified divorce financial analyst. Her expertise extends beyond the advisory realm as a trusted expert witness in courtrooms, offering invaluable insights, utilizing forensic accounting. She has also served on two boards of directors and completed Deloitte’s certification program for women board readiness. We will talk about co-parenting with a narcissist. Welcome, Tammy. Tammy: Thank you for having me. I’m excited to talk with you today. Anne: You mentioned that your personal story is part of what interested you in becoming a certified divorce financial analyst. So can we start there? Tammy: Yes, well, you can only connect the dots backwards. And when I look back to my dating of him. There were so many signs that showed he was a narcissist, but I was so young. My wonderful father was incredibly involved in our lives. I’m one of four children. When I met my ex husband, I did not believe a man could not be a good husband and a good father, because I had such an amazing example of one. I was right out of college when I met him. I was just captured. He’s good looking, charismatic. He’s super intelligent. He was a football player in college. I’m like, of course, he’ll be a good dad, of course he’ll be a good husband, because that’s what I had as an example, and I was looking for all the wrong things. “I Couldn’t Have Known”: What I Wish I Knew Before co-parenting with a narcissistic parent Tammy: Today, I’d have a phone conversation with him and realize absolutely what a narcissist he is. And co-parenting with a narcissist can feel impossible. Anne: Well, we don’t know. It’s not our fault. I think even if you learned about narcissism, until the mask comes off, you still wouldn’t know that they were a narcissist. We don’t even have the context for it. You might see the red flags. But because of your context, you think, oh, he’s tired or stressed out. So to say, people saw red flags and then ignored them. I would say people saw the red flags, and the context they had for them was not that context. Anne: Knowing what you know now, what would you do differently? It’s like, would you do anything different? When you knew what you knew then. And the answer is always I couldn’t do anything different. Tammy: Correct, I couldn’t. So I was married for about 17 years when my then husband came home and basically said to me, “I’m done being married to you. I know how much you love the children, so you can have them.” It was pretty traumatic to have the rug pulled out from underneath me. So I ended up going on the journey of a divorce, certainly not understanding anything that was going to happen. In today’s environment, it’s more of a 50/50 situation. But, I went from being a stay at home mom to going back into the workforce, as well as having the children a hundred percent by myself. I do have four college degrees, so I was in the workforce for a while, but at the time I was a stay at home mother. He Didn’t Want To Be Responsible For The Children, But He Still Wanted Control Anne: Wow, that is very unique. I don’t hear that every day, where you got them 100 percent of the time. So many women, at least who listen to this podcast or who are co-parenting with a narcissist, are fighting these narcissists or abusers in court for years. So that is like a miracle. Was that happening with many people back then? Tammy: Even back then, dads had the kiddos every other weekend, probably one night during the week for dinner, like a Wednesday night. What happened in my particular situation is that my ex went through a midlife crisis. He started dating a 25 year old girl who reported directly to him at work. His midlife crisis was, not only do I not want to be married, I also don’t want the responsibility of caring for children. He wanted to travel the world with her, do all sorts of fun things, and of course children get in the way. At the time, I was incredibly scared. How will I take care of these children full time, as well as work full time? But as you said, Anne, in hindsight, it was the greatest blessing that could ever happen. That way I did have the children by myself as far as not co-parenting with a narcissistic parent. I spent 10 years in court with him, but it wasn’t over the time with the children. It was a matter of him actually paying me. Our ink was not even dry on our divorce decree, and he was already not paying me spousal support, not paying me child support, et cetera, et cetera. Hindsight: Unrecognized Signs of Narcissism Tammy: So I was unfortunately wrapped up in the court system for a very long period of time. Until my youngest child went off to college, but I never had to fight him for time. Like I said, I feel fortunate. Anne: How did you know that he was a narcissist? Tammy: He told me, on our wedding night, I will not fail. I do not fail at anything. And so I believed our marriage was for the rest of our lives. I didn’t think he would want to be divorced, because that would be a “failure”. Of course, everything’s crystal clear in hindsight. But certainly not when that’s happening. I looked up a lot about narcissists. He meets the Mayo Clinic definition of a narcissist, like every point. He lacks empathy. I know that many times people throw the word narcissist around loosely. And that could be just somebody who’s self-absorbed, but he actually meets the Mayo Clinic definition. He didn’t physically abuse. However, emotional abuse has lasting scars. Anne: And talking about emotional and psychological abuse, which the court doesn’t recognize. And so there’s no way to protect your kids through the courts, because of the current climate of not recognizing it. And so that’s why we have a workshop that teaches women how to strategically face co-parenting with a narcissistic ex. So let’s talk about court and the problems that happened in court regarding the payment. Even though you had children a hundred percent of the time. And my guess is you had a ton of proof. What You Need to Know About Family Court When co-parenting With a Narcissistic Ex Tammy: First of all, depending on what state you are in, you may or may not have a dedicated family court system. Now, why is that important? In my particular case, there was no dedicated family court. So therefore, you would have judges just rolling off the criminal bench. And now they’re like, Oh, hello, I’m in the courtroom. And now let’s talk about family law. My ex was a chief financial officer, a very good looking man, very articulate. Who would be able to go into court and look the part and talk the part. And he was able to twist all sorts of things so that the judge would actually have some compassion for him, and why he was not paying his child support payments or behind, in paying his spousal support payments. And in the judge’s eyes, you can imagine, right? They’re just coming off the criminal court system, where there are many very dark things that happen. So then when you’re just looking at someone, Oh, you’re behind on your child support payments, and here’s the reason for it: they have a level of compassion that they should not have. And the courts are very clunky. He wasn’t paying. So now I’m financially feeling that impact of not having that income. And now you’ve got increased expenses, because now your attorney says, I need another $5,000. I need another $10, 000. And they want their payment right away, or they’re not going to work for you. So now your expenses are increasing at a time your revenue or your income is decreasing. Playing keep away with court dates Tammy: And it’s not like you’re going to get an answer in five minutes. You might file something with the courts, and they might not hear it for months. And then just as it’s coming up, and he did this to me a lot, and actually because I had the children a hundred percent of the time, I moved states for my career. And even though the children and I lived in Colorado. I always had to catch a plane to go back to where he was domiciled, to go to court. It’s so frustrating. I had paid for my plane ticket. I had my attorney completely prepped for the hearing, so you paid all that attorney preparation time. I’m paying for the hotel room, and I’d get a call at 10:00 o’clock at night from my attorney. Oh, by the way, they’re continuing the hearing. A narcissistic parent will do that on purpose. A narcissist is going to do that in order to mess with you. If they really had a good reason to continue in the hearing, they would have done it before I ever got on that plane. So that was just another tactic to interfere with my life. This would just go on and on. One of my hearings took over two years for them to consider child support. So people should understand. It’s not like, yay, I get my day in court. No, even when you have your day in court, the ruling, I’ve been on cases that I’ve testified, and the ruling doesn’t come until a year later. No Matter What Your Attorney Or The Law Says, A Narcissistic Co Parent Doesn’t Play By The Rules Anne: It seems to always benefit the abuser and never the victim, just in general. If you want a rule, which there are no rules, right? Because it can go any way, but the likelihood of it benefiting the abuser is much higher than the likelihood of it benefiting the victim. Tammy: Absolutely. Anne: That’s the scary part. And I think the other issue is enforcement, because no matter what the ruling says, when you’re co-parenting with a narcissistic parent, enforcing it will be another part of the problem. Tammy: I’m on the case right now, where one party should pay my fees, as well as my client’s attorney fees. Now, there’s even a ruling that says that has to happen. I still haven’t received my payment. So I know exactly what you’re saying happens. The cases that end up in court and end up in court for years, always one of the parties is a narcissist. Because no one else wants to spend that kind of energy, time, and resources. In fact, my attorney would always say it’s cheaper for him to pay you than to pay his attorney and get the ruling, because the rulings would go in my favor, but it’s a year and a half later or two years later. So in the meantime, I’m struggling. So it is absolutely an abuse tactic. And I said to my attorney, I don’t think you understand. Playing “Their Game:” Co-Parenting With a Narcissistic Parent Tammy: This is not a matter of it’s less expensive for him to pay me outright. This is a game. I promise you that when you’re co-parenting with a narcissist, this is a game. Anne: It’s a power play, and they like it. They’re the opposite of normal people, who think that chaos and spending money to hurt people is not enjoyable. There’ve been times where he comes into court so happy. And that always surprises me. It shouldn’t, but it’s really interesting to me. The victim is so overwhelmed. Not necessarily disheveled, because women can show up well put together. So that’s not what I’m saying, but she’s clearly not enjoying this. And he is enjoying it. What are your thoughts about why these types of abusers enjoy it? Especially after your own personal experience? Tammy: Having experienced it myself, I promise you the abuser walks in almost like a saunter. It’s interesting to see it. I’ve seen the narcissist put their arm around the back of the chair of their attorney, and they sit back and are absolutely at ease. And of course, this guy says he has no money, but here’s evidence he actually does. Yeah, it’s a game, and it’s a way to still exert control. Because in a relationship when you’re still together, whether dating or married. There’s a level of control that happens. And I remember my attorney said to me the day we actually officially divorced, “I’m worried about you.” getting a warning from my attorney Tammy: And I said, “Why would you be worried about me? He’s never hit me. He’s never done anything physical to me.” He said, “I’m telling you right now, he no longer has control over you, and he will seek it in some manner.” And that’s what he did. So instead of being able to abuse me emotionally in our home every day, the only way to exert control and abuse over me was through the court system. And he used it. It truly is a weaponization of the court system. Anne: Yeah, it’s legal abuse that the legal system is willingly and actively participating in. Now, does that mean I think they are knowingly doing that? No, I don’t think the judges are like, I know he’s abusive, and that’s fine. But they are making the abuse worse for the victims, and it’s unfortunate they’re not aware of that. They become extensions of the abuse in some way. Tammy: They do. And these judges have many cases on their docket. People have their “right” to their day in court. So when you file a petition, when you file motions, you have a right to that. Yes, the abusers know that. A lot of times I’ve seen cases where people are behind in paying their child support payments. All of a sudden, the day before court, like I’ve seen cases where people are behind over $100,000 in paying child support. And then the day before court to compel them to pay, they might pay like $30, 000. And so then you’re like, Oh, okay, well they made an effort. So it absolutely is a system where the narcissist can continue to abuse victims who are co-parenting. Caught Between A Rock And A Hard Place: Pressure To Settle When co-parenting with A Narcissist In Court Anne: Can we talk about what I would like to deem as unethical pressure? A victim’s attorney will put on her to settle, which might be in her best interest, rather than spending another $150, 000 going to court in attorney fees. This happened with me, and I am still upset about it. We didn’t even present anything to the court. Like a motion or even a defense or anything. And my attorney said, “That will cost you $150, 000 in attorney fees. So why don’t we just shut this down now and only pay $40, 000 in attorney fees? In the process, I got zero things that I wanted, like literally zero. So the only thing I paid the attorney fees for was to basically wrap up the case. So I didn’t have something in court happening. I knew I had all the proof on my side, but it was too expensive for me to do it. And the attorneys knew it. Lose, because even if I won, I was still out $150, 000 that I did not have. So can you talk about that rock and a hard place that victims are in, and how their attorneys end up traumatizing women in this process? Tammy: You’re absolutely correct. This is the dilemma that happens. The fact that an attorney will sit down with their client and say, “Listen, we’re going to go to court and we’re going to lose on things.” Winning in court of appeals but losing anyway Tammy: We’ll go to court, and we’ll win on things that you thought there’s no way we’ll win. It’s hard to tell what could happen in a case with a with a narcissist. Certainly you have prior case history, but the courts are always evolving. And so it’s never a hundred percent sure. That’s why in my particular situation, we even went to the court of appeals, because the lower court judge who had rolled off the criminal bench didn’t understand family law, and actually made an error in the ruling. And so that was an additional expense. Now I’m fortunate, this is not the case most of the time. My attorney firm believed so strongly that the judge had made a mistake. They said, “We’re going to fund most of this.” Cause it was tens of thousands of dollars, and they wanted it because it was prestigious, and for their law firm to go before the court of appeals and actually win. And we did win in the court of appeals. But again, now you’re talking about another year. Had, I had to make that decision myself and foot the entire bill. There’s no way. I would have had to live with the judges error in the ruling. But even though the attorney firm I worked with was willing to do that, it was remanded to the lower court. And let me tell you, it can really annoy the judge that now you appealed them and you have to continue to be in front of that judge. They can retaliate against you in their rulings. And so even though I won in the court of appeals, in reality, I did not. Why Is The Law So Unpredictable When Co-Parenting With A Narcissist? Anne: Can you talk about why the law is so unpredictable? Tammy: Back when I divorced, there weren’t a lot of statutes, and that was back when whoever had the bigger, better hired gun would win in the court system. Now, I will say the courts have improved on some level in that there are far more statutes that they follow. So it is better, but it’s still not where it needs to be. Case law can affect things. Back when I got divorced, if you got divorced with the exact same case facts in a different county or in front of a different judge, you could get an entirely different ruling. It’s just that it’s a very old, archaic system that has a lot of things that need improvement. Because, like I said, the landscape is they really want 50/50 parenting. Anne: Yeah, in Utah, we just passed Om’s’s law, which is similar to Caden’s law. Are you aware of that law? Tammy: I don’t think I am. Anne: Where are you? Tammy: I’m in Colorado. Anne: So you guys passed it too. Tammy: Okay. Anne: It made reunification therapy illegal. And the reason why is because abusers and narcissistic co parents are using it. I mean, it’s just an abuser tactic. So, now they’ve just renamed it a different name, and they still do it. There’s no way to stop them, because now it has a different name, and they’re still court ordering it. Even though it’s against the law, and also against the law in Colorado. Passing Laws to protect children Anne: We try to run it here about emotional and psychological abuse. Because at least two cases were here, and you had one recently, someone who was never physically abusive, ever, then murdered people. Yours was with the dentist who murdered his wife. It is called Caden’s Law in Colorado, and it was passed in 2023. It protects children from abuse in custody cases. And this would be at play with the money situation if he gets less custody. Because then he would need to pay more, and I feel like there’s two things happening with abusers. There’s just the control, they like the control. But the second part is that they want the most custody to pay the least amount of child support. And so the kids get to their house, and thtey neglect them at their home. They don’t think, “Wait, I’m going to have to actually do something with these children.” Tammy: Absolutely. Anne: They just want to have the most amount of parent time possible, because all they see is the paycheck to their ex. And a narcissist would rather make their kids miserable at their house, neglecting them, than pay their ex any child support. Tammy: Absolutely, because the child support formula, at least in Colorado, is based on the income of mom, income of dad, who pays the health insurance, because that ends up getting split. And so if one person pays it, that’s factored into the child support calculation. And then obviously time with mom and with dad. Time Is Money When Co-Parenting With a Narcissist Tammy: Yes, more time if it’s a 50/50 split. Child support ends up being pretty low actually here in the state of Colorado. Whereas, if mom has predominantly far more time, the child support calculation certainly increases considerably. And when the children are with dad, homework isn’t done. Or they get dropped off at school late, you know, things like that. Anne: We don’t recommend trying to get a parenting coordinator or custody evaluator when co-parenting with a narcissist, because that’s another avenue for him to abuse her. So if he messages her, and she won’t do what he wants, because the parenting plan says no, right? You’re supposed to pick up on Wednesdays, and he’s like, no, I want to pick up on Thursdays. Then he can go through the parenting coordinator, and the parenting coordinator will make her do it. That’s why we’re like, don’t even use a parenting coordinator. We do not recommend it at all. So one of the things that I’ve often either asked women that I talked to, or I’ve thought myself, is, “If you were a billionaire, would you want to remain married to this person?” Pretty much everyone I’ve asked says, “No, I wouldn’t. Because I want to continue being a stay at home mom.” Or “Because I want to continue to homeschool.” I’m not a homeschooler, but other women have wanted to do that. Their life is drastically changing in a way they can’t control. And so finances are such an important piece of that puzzle. Financial Strangulation: What You Need To Know And How To Be Strategic Tammy: Absolutely, it’s incredibly frustrating, because what can happen in a divorce with a narcissist is what’s called financial strangulation. And the other side can do that, especially if you have a working spouse, and then the other is a stay at home spouse. And so they’ll cut off bank accounts or credit cards. So it can cut off people’s access to cash or the ability to leave the situation. Here I have four college degrees, but at the time I divorced, I was a stay at home mom because we supported his career to advance. And it helped him. It didn’t help me personally. And then I had to raise my children a hundred percent, but also get back into the workforce. And it’s very scary. Anne: I recently saw two cases where the ex was extremely wealthy. When I say extreme, I mean extreme. The women ended up with hardly anything, because he shut down bank accounts or moved money around, spent a lot of money, or ended up scaring her so badly that she did not get what she was entitled to. And the lawyers in her case were like, do you want to spend four more or five more years? I think there’s a disconnect between what you’re legally entitled to, like this is the law. And then actually spending the money to get it, and there’s no way around that. That’s what our Living Free strategies are about in our workshop that teaches women. This is strategically how to deal with them. Dealing with financial control Anne: And it might mean that you leave a bunch of money that you’re entitled to on the table. So that he doesn’t abuse you anymore. Tammy: Exactly what you’re saying. If one person has control over the credit cards, has control over bank accounts, take out a credit card right now in your name only. You can use the household income. So you can get a higher credit limit. Financial strangulation is a real thing. Because to have an attorney represent you, you have to pay the attorney, and to pay your bills, you have to have financial resources. Like you’re saying. Women say, “I don’t even qualify for rent. No one will rent to me because I don’t have a credit score history.” Some landlords want the full lump sum right away, and people don’t have financial resources to do that. It’s rare that people have financial resources, because like you’re saying, most people are just getting by. Anne: In a defense case, like if you’re charged with a crime, you at least get the public defender, but there is no version of a public defender in divorce. Tammy: What’s supposed to happen is that once a petition for dissolution has been filed, everything has to be status quo. So you’re not allowed to change beneficiaries. You’re not allowed to drop people from health insurance policies. You’re not allowed to do all these things. But abusers will do that. And do you have the ability to say they were wrong? Yeah, but it requires financial resources to pay the attorney to get in front of the judge. co-parenting with A Narcissist: what to do when he Isn’t Following The Law And You Can’t Afford A Fight Anne: And think that’s the main problem that I see repeatedly with attorneys is they’ll tell the victims, well, this is the law. He can’t do that. I think the court isn’t recognizing that he IS doing it. I remember my attorney saying, “Once this is signed” and I’m just laughing now. “You don’t need to worry, because this is what the parenting plan says.” And I was like, “The second I sign it and he signs it, the case is over. But I can literally scrunch it up and throw it in the garbage can because he’s not going to follow it.” Tammy: Correct, a narcissistic parent, doesn’t follow it. Even when I went through my divorce, he tried to have a good appearance in front of the kids. He would say, “I’m going to pick up the kids at five o’clock for dinner.” So I would make plans to go out with girlfriends, or maybe go on a date, and lo and behold, it’s eight o’clock and he still hasn’t picked them up. He might keep them overnight on a Friday night and he would say, ” They’re sick.” And I’m like, “It’s Saturday.” He goes, “I don’t know who their pediatrician is. I don’t know who to call.” So, back to the beginning of our conversation. I was fortunate that I had the kids a hundred percent of the time. Because had they been with their dad, they would have missed a lot of things. He didn’t know who their pediatrician was. He purposely creates exhaustion Tammy: And it actually would have been for me personally, not even the children. I know I would have gone through him not picking up the kids when he said he was or not dropping them off. In fact, when I moved states for a job, he had the children that day. And he knew I had to get on the road at a decent hour. Our exchange time was 5 o’clock, because I had many hours to go before I could get to a hotel. He didn’t bring the kids back that night until 11 o’clock, and I had to get on the road that late. What are you going to do? How litigate that in court? You know, that was just another way to exhaust me, which is terrible, right? He purposely kept the kids until 11 o’clock that night. I was exhausted. So, I know that I was fortunate that I got my children 100 percent of the time. Because I would have had that day in and day out, that type of abusive situation of not following the parenting plan at all. Anne: So it’s hard to be like the parenting plan will help, or in my own personal case, my attorney would say, “Did you see the draft, was it okay?” And I was like, “I’ll just sign anything. I don’t even care what it says, because it does not matter.” Tammy: Because you know who that person is. There’s got to be more education within the court system. Why Having A Strategy For Co-Parenting With A Narcissistic Parent Is So Important Tammy: I remember going to a therapist who specialized in narcissists right after I divorced, because I was quite broken emotionally. I remember the therapist saying to me, “You know, that tool belt you have to interact with other people? You need to take that off and set it aside, because it doesn’t apply with a narcissist.” I remember almost having this sigh of relief hearing those words, to know that there was someone who absolutely understood what I was going through. Because you can’t explain, like other people, even my girlfriends, who I love dearly, they would say, “Why does he do that? Why can’t the court see what he is doing?” And I would say, “Here’s the thing, you’re trying to use that tool belt of normal conflict management or normal personal interaction, but that tool belt does not apply with a narcissist. You have to take that off and throw it away because we are talking about an entire new set of circumstances. And they don’t play by the rules. It’s all playing to win. It’s a game.” And it’s sad. I actually believe, this is in hindsight, that my ex husband saw my goodness, and he saw my light, and he wanted what I have. He wanted my view of the world. And so because he couldn’t have it, he was going to make sure I was just beat down to the ground. He uses legal abuse Tammy: Unfortunately, it took until my daughter turned 18 before I finally could have a life where I could live without him in it. In the court system, you’re tied to them until they’re 18 years old. And so he could use the courts to abuse me up until that time. Just like you’re saying, they view the courts as an extension of a way to abuse you. At the time, I looked at it as, I’m doing this on behalf of my children. My children have a right to this money. I took him to court to get him to pay, but he always took me to court to reduce my child support. A narcissistic parent is going to lie. And a lot of them are quite successful individuals. My ex was a chief financial officer, because they can use their charisma to move up the corporate ladder to be business owners. I had one case where, “Oh, I make $80, 000 a year.” And I told the judge, “No, he makes $480, 000 a year.” The judge absolutely took my report in its entirety. During COVID, where people got those PPP loans, that was a huge abuse in the court system. Because these business owners, maybe their revenue had gone down. But now their employee expenses were zero, because the government through the PPP loan paid for that, but they still got to deduct those expenses. The court system is a gauntlet of pain Tammy: So these narcissists ran to court, and told the judge, stop my child support. Look, my business is in the red. In reality, it wasn’t. Their revenue was down, but their expenses were zero. You have to be careful of these people who run to the court seeking relief from their child support payments. In reality, they were doing just fine financially because of these loans. And I know the shortcomings of the court system. Anne: The court system is this gauntlet of pain. Tammy: If you’re going into a court system and thinking it’s going to solve your problems, it’s not. Are there glimmers of hope and are there things that can happen? Yes, you’ve got this legal system, but then you’ve got the emotional situation you’re going through And certainly there’s a financial situation. You have to have a multi-pronged approach to resolve it. And that’s why, the beauty of you offering a course to women to help heal them and give them tools in other avenues to deal with this narcissist. Even recently, I saw my ex husband, because my oldest daughter, my middle child, just got married. You’ll continue to see them at birthdays, graduations, weddings. The Court System Is Not Going To Solve Your Problems with A Narcissistic parent: Build A Support System Tammy: The tools that you offer in order to be able to deal with them, they’re invaluable going forward. You can get to the other side, but you need an incredible support system. You cannot do this alone. I would always say to my girlfriends, I swear I’d be six feet under if it weren’t for them. Because they were the ones that saw my beauty. They were the ones who saw my strength. They were the ones that were my greatest cheerleaders, who said, “Get up, dust yourself off. You can do this another day.” So I really believe having an effective support in place was key for me to be able to get to the other side of this. I could never get to the other side alone. Anne: Going through the court in some way or another, you’ll have to have a legal document that you sign to be divorced. Tammy: Correct. Anne: There’s no way around it. Now, the way I got my kids completely free of my ex, we didn’t go to court, but he signed a legal document. So, I’m not saying that will work for everyone, there’s no guarantees. But, there’s no way around the legal ramifications and some type of legal process. And, you can do a DIY. You can have a BTR coach help you. You can hire an attorney. There are multiple avenues to do this, but you have to do it. There’s No Way Around It: You Need A Good Team and A Good Strategy Anne: And so, no matter how terrible it is, or miserable or hopeless, having the right team a trauma informed divorce coach like we have here. We mostly deal with things like strategy and emotions. How to keep yourself centered, thought strategies that you can use so that you can actually function. I think the hopeful part is that this is one of the hardest things you’ve ever done. You can get through it, you will survive co-parenting with a narcissist. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, and our team will be there for you. No matter what the outcome is, you will survive and your kids will be okay. I think that’s what I’m trying to land on. For all of us who have been through it, and we’re looking back. We know that will happen, but it’s very hard to feel that when you’re going through it. Tammy: It is. There’s no other way, especially when you have children, because the courts require you to have the parenting plans and whatnot. But there is light at that other side, but you must walk through this process. And that’s why, just as you stated, it’s important that professionals are in place. Who will help you on several fronts to navigate this environment, legally, as well as personally, emotionally, spiritually, all of that. The more of a support system you can have in place, the better chance of your success. Anne: Well, thank you so much, Tammy, for spending time to talk with us today. I appreciate you. Tammy: I have enjoyed my time with you. Thank you so much for having me on your show.

Transcribed - Published: 22 December 2025

 Many women ask, “What if my husband says he doesn’t love me??” It will surprise you to know that it’s actually a lie. Here’s what you need to know. Did you know there are 19 different types of emotional abuse? To see if you can recognize the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Transcript: What to Do When Your Husband Doesn’t Love You Anne: Today we’re gonna cover what happens when your husband says he doesn’t love you anymore. We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Denise. This happened to her. Here’s a preview of what she said. “I felt like he hates me. He hates my guts. I had asked him , “When did your heart turn against me?” So then he tells me…” You’ll find out what he tells her later on in the story. If this has happened to you, where your husband has told you he doesn’t love you anymore. Here are two things to consider. Number one, get educated about emotional and psychological abuse because there’s a chance that this is part of your story, even if it doesn’t seem like it. You’ll hear about how Denise’s husband used two psychological abuse tactics: mirroring and countering. So as you listen, see if you can identify when that happens. And number, two is to observe their actions. And I’ll talk more about that in today’s interview. So welcome, Denise. When your Husband Says He doesn’t Love you Denise: Yeah, I met my ex online. I was in my 40s and had never been married. I always said I didn’t want to get married until I met the one. Like, the one, and I made sure, because I didn’t want a bad marriage. Um, turns out that I apparently didn’t know what that looked like. So Yeah, he’d been, married before, was a widower, he took care of his late wife, and, seemed to be financially responsible. The first date was great. But then on the next date, we went for a hike, and I was asking him questions, and he couldn’t answer simple questions, like, what’s your favorite movie? Maybe He’s Just Not Ready Denise: The third date was just awkward, something feels off. And I told him I wouldn’t date him. I didn’t think he was ready for a relationship, like maybe he needed to heal some more. Anne: How long after his wife’s death did you start? Denise: Like three and a half months So I told him I wouldn’t date him. But we were hanging out as friends and we would argue all the time. People would say, “what are you arguing about?” Like, I don’t even know, I don’t know what we were arguing about. It was really confusing to me because I’m not a really argumentative person, but for some reason I was drawn to him. His Sudden Heart Change: Maybe He Does Love Me Denise: And then all of a sudden, literally one day, he changed and there was no more arguing. It was almost like this happy wife, happy life thing. I thought okay, he hadn’t dated in a long time, that was a fluke. That’s what I thought. That was a fluke. He’s realized he was just being an idiot and now he’s ready to step up and be himself and be respectful. Anne: Wow! That was a sudden heart change. Denise: Yes, exactly. And then after that, we got along really well. I had so much fun. Looking back now, I can see things that I didn’t notice at the time, but at the time, everything seemed great. I just kept telling people like how blessed I was. This was amazing. His friends were all telling me how wonderful he was and random people we would meet would tell me like, “you are lucky, he is a good man.” My family loved him. I mean, it was like everybody. No one thought there would be a time where I’d have to figure out what to do if he said he didn’t love me anymore. No one ever thought something like that would ever happen. Anne: Did he have kids from his first marriage? Denise: He did. They were preteen, and early teen. His Sudden Heart Change: Confusion Denise: There were a couple of little other flukes that happened while we were dating or after we were engaged and I thought they were flukes, one of them happened when my niece was graduating from college and I wanted to go to her graduation. We were engaged at the time and he had never been to that area of the United States. So, he’s like, “why don’t you plan the trip then, since you’ve been there before and we can do our family vacation and go to your niece’s graduation at the same time.” I’m like, Oh, that would be wonderful. Like I’d been there. He hadn’t. So, we asked the kids if they wanted to do anything like specific in that area. They didn’t want to look anything up. So I was like, I guess I’m planning it. And he was like, “I trust you.” So, we go on this trip and he starts getting angry at me for not having planned it better and I was like, really confused. That’s what a lot of this whole thing was, a lot of confusion. Like, you asked me to plan it, if you wanted to do it a certain way, you should have stepped in and planned it yourself or said you wanted something else. I mean, it’s common sense. I saw on that trip what he was just, angry, bitter, and yelling at me. Pre-Wedding Tensions Denise: That was, before the wedding and I thought it was a one off. Anne: like a fluke. Denise: Mm hmm. And then, there was one more that I see now as major. I thought it was him being under a lot of stress. It was right before the wedding. He said he wanted our bank accounts to be merged, which is what I wanted. I wanted 100 percent commitment, all in, everything shared. I wanted to be a stay at home mom. That was my goal. He was totally up for that. So, right before the wedding, he starts getting angry that he’s paying more for the wedding than I am. And I was like, weird, cause we’re merging everything. He wasn’t arguing that he didn’t want something at the wedding. He was saying he wanted me to pay for it. Anne: Are you okay if we pause right here? Denise: totally Mirroring Explained Anne: This is how mirroring works. He’s not gonna tell you how he feels until you tell him how you feel, so he can just mirror back to you your own interests and your own opinions. So he’s gonna find out what your favorite movie genre is, and then he’s gonna say, me too. He’s gonna wait until he knows how you feel about politics. And then he’s going to mirror your opinions back to you. And then later he’ll have a “change of heart”  when really he didn’t have those opinions in the first place. So in terms of choosing a good husband, if you’re thinking about dating or getting to know someone, try asking them questions like this before you tell them how you feel and see how they respond. Denise: That actually makes complete sense. I hadn’t thought of it in that way but now that you say that, I was thinking back, like, after I told him what my favorite movie was, then he said that he liked that one too. Most everything, it seemed like it was a fluke that he liked the same things I did, it was like, oh my , we’re like exactly the same. This is crazy. I’m like, yeah, this is crazy. I never, imagined that we would like this many things the same. Countering Explained Anne: So when you talked about this period of time where you were just friends and he was arguing with you quite a bit. My guess is that he was countering. Countering is an abuse tactic where they counter basically, everything you say. It’s very similar to like a 15 year old. My son counters right now from time to time, cause he’s 15 and I’m like legit every single thing I’m saying you’re disagreeing with. And he’s like, “no, I’m not.” I’m like, there you go again. This is happening right now. It’s a really immature way of trying to overpower somebody else. He was countering maybe, to determine how confident you were in your opinions. And when he realized you’re very confident in your opinions, he also realized he wasn’t gonna be able to groom you that way. And then, he made an abrupt heart change to acting kind and egalitarian. That’s where you saw that shift when he realized you weren’t looking for the strong, like take charge type. She’s looking more for a partner. It sounds like it was either arguing or everything was perfect. Denise: Yeah, that is how it felt and that’s the way it was. It was extreme. Better Communication Won’t Make His Heart Change Anne: They use communication in this way to manipulate. That’s why learning to communicate better doesn’t solve an abuse problem, and that’s why the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free strategies are so important. Using those strategies will help you see what their true intent is and what they’re actually doing. So he was using those tactics on you, and you didn’t realize it because, why would you? We’re not educated on what to do if he says doesn’t love us. Did you know about any porn use? Denise: That was really important for me to talk to him about before the wedding. He said he had a box of Playboys in the basement. And he was like, “I don’t want to have anything to do with that, I just need to destroy those.” So he told me he burned all of them and I tried really hard not to push him, because I wanted anything like that to come from him. He wasn’t Catholic. I didn’t ask him to become Catholic. I just told him going to church was really important to me and going together was really important to me. So we went to both churches. His Sudden Heart Change: Post-Wedding Denise: But then, I noticed on the honeymoon that he was doing things on purpose to hurt me. Like there were things before that hurt me, you know, I didn’t like that, or we need to work on this. He would like, abruptly turn away from me in bed, just like a rejection. And I told him I didn’t like it and he just kept doing it. I was like, okay, this is meant to hurt me, which was very shocking to me because I thought I married my knight in shining armor, the countering got so bad while we were… I don’t even like to say intimate because it wasn’t reality, like within weeks of the wedding, he was screaming at me, telling me that I was selfish and that I didn’t care about him. I’m like, what is happening here? Screaming isn’t one of the types of physical intimacy, haha. I am super confused. I mean, you know, you’ve been through it, all the torture, the angst. Anne: So when he starts doing this on the honeymoon during intimate times, and I agree with you, calling it intimacy is like a joke because it wasn’t intimate at all, and you recognize this is on purpose. What did you think was the cause of this sudden heart? Denise: I just thought he needed healing, you know, he had a rough childhood. He was married. She was ill for a long time. He said she was depressed all the time and then she passed away. Raising his kids on his own, like he couldn’t handle stuff. Financial Control And Isolation after he says he Doesn’t Love You Denise: At this point I had lost my job. We had spent all of my money on groceries. My bank accounts were empty. I had absolutely nothing. He wouldn’t put me on the accounts. He kept saying he was going to like, “Oh, I forgot. Oh, we should have done that.” So, I had no income, no job, and no money in the bank. I’m destitute. At this point, I had already had one miscarriage, and I took another pregnancy test. It was negative, but he thought it was positive and he thought I was pregnant. He was like, “yeah, I think you should leave.” Anne: And you’ve been single, so you’re used to being independent. You’re used to to paying your own bills. And then to be in this vulnerable position of realizing that your husband doesn’t love you for the first time must have felt like a trap. Denise: yeah. Different Paths and No Mercy When He says he Doesn’t Love You anymore Anne: that is shocking. Denise: But I thought we were on the same path going the same direction and there were these like little jolts off of the path, but that he really wanted to be on that path and he would come back and we would keep moving in the same direction. Four months after the wedding, things had gotten so bad. He was screaming at me all the time. I kind of laugh, but it’s not funny at all. I mean, I look back and I’m just like, what the heck? It was just insane. He kept bringing up that trip we had taken, blaming me because we didn’t do things that were kid friendly and, literally, I was begging him, like, I’m trying to be the best mom and wife that I can be please give me some mercy. For, not knowing what the kids would enjoy, like I’m doing the best I can, yeah, I’m going to fail. I’m not perfect. Don’t you think I deserve a little bit of mercy? And in front of one of his kids, he said, “you don’t deserve mercy.” It’s just like, there’s nowhere to go, nowhere to go with that. Facing The Truth When Your Husband has stopped loving you Anne: So, at this point, when you see that your husband says he’s had a drastic heart change, what did you do? Denise: I finally started telling people what was going on. And I have a few friends who told me about the cycle of abuse. I didn’t have any bruises or anything, I was confused, and knew this wasn’t healthy. So, I looked it up and I was like, this is exactly what’s happening, but It’s not just like I’m dating and he’s abusive to me. There was a wedding. And of course, like most women do, oh, but this is the way he was. Is he going to get back to this point? So, when I was shown the truth, I started searching for a therapist and trying to do everything I could to to heal it. Seeking Help and Therapy When He Doesn’t Love You anymore Denise: During the time that we were together, we saw four different therapists. Three of them sided with him, even after he was either abusive to me in front of them or he told them he was abusive to me. They still sided with him. At one point he is sitting face to face, my hands in his hands and he’s telling me how much he loves me and he’s so sorry and one therapist was like, “don’t you hear him? Can’t you hear him?” I was just like, I don’t even know if he means it right now, but in five minutes he’s not going to, that’s the problem. And she didn’t get it. Anne: This is crazy pants! Were you surprised at how unhelpful therapy was? Because couples therapy is kind of like everybody’s solution. And many therapists don’t consider the possibility that your husband doesn’t love you or he is abusive if he’s coming to couples therapy with you. Denise: Yes. One of the questions I asked before we chose this therapist was, “Can you spot narcissism?” Anne: Did she say yes? Denise: Of course, of course, they all say yes. And after that, she wouldn’t even answer my calls. I think she was probably so confused by the whole thing. Anne: It’s really hard when you go to someone for help, and you have to educate them about what’s happening rather than the other way around. First Attempt to Leave Denise: Then about a month later, I left him the first time. I called someone to tell them I was leaving and that I was worried about his kids. This person told me, “we all knew it wasn’t going to work out…He was completely fake the whole time you were dating.” I was like, why didn’t anybody tell me this? They said it was “because they were afraid that, he wouldn’t let them have a relationship with the kids.” But this person hadn’t been really nice to me. So I was like, Oh, do I trust this person or not? I have no idea. Are they playing me? I must’ve been looking up betrayal trauma, and I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast and I ended up listening quite a bit. I was able to use all the tools from the betrayal podcast and from the group, because I was in the group a total of a year and a half. Going to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions was so enlightening. I could not have done this without BTR.ORG. Unfortunately, after that, he was like, “there’s this retreat thing. A Catholic retreat for people on the verge of the decision to divorce, to try to heal the relationship.” And they say in there, “if there’s abuse, this doesn’t work.” So he set it up. We went to that and he said, “I want this, I want to be with you, blah, blah, blah,” and of course, he acted like everything was great and we’re all healed. That was right when all the COVID lockdowns were just starting and I was like, I should be with him to figure this out. Temporary Reconciliation Denise: So, I moved back. and it was actually decent, for quite a while. And then eight months later, it started going downhill really fast. So I was trying to get to another therapist and on the same day that we’re meeting with a therapist, he tells me he has a meeting with a divorce lawyer. Just like why are we meeting with a therapist if you’re meeting with a divorce lawyer, and then he told one of his kids he was divorcing me. I felt like this guy hates me. He hates my guts. I had asked him, when did you stop loving me? Because I still didn’t understand that it was all fake beforehand. My Heart Change: The Breaking Point Denise: So then, he tells me that it was at our reception. Anne: Your wedding reception?! Denise: Yes…I know, right?! Anne: What in the world?! Denise: …He overheard this friend saying, “she’s got herself a sugar daddy.” And that was it, according to him, which is just a lie anyway. Like, you don’t turn against your spouse because somebody makes a joke! Anne: yeah. Denise: Even if you don’t like the joke. Anne: No. Denise: Yeah. I was just in shock, and I was like, well, the timeline makes sense. The Real Timeline of “He doesn’t love me anymore” Unveiled Anne: The true timeline was the second he married you, he was like, now I don’t have to wear the mask anymore. Denise: Yeah. Anne: “She’s stuck with me.” So that’s the real timeline. After the reception, he didn’t feel like he had to treat you well anymore. Not that he overheard somebody tell a joke. Denise: Yeah. I think honestly, he was telling people negative things about me before the wedding. There were people who weren’t going to go to our wedding, because they didn’t like that he was marrying a Catholic. It didn’t cross my mind that he would be complaining about me to his friends. So, a lot of his friends didn’t want to come to the wedding. If he says he doesn’t love you, it could be Manipulation Anne: Um, through all the interviews I’ve done, I see a lot of patterns. One I see frequently is goldfish brain. They only care about the thing they want in the moment, like right then, like what is right in front of them. And so they’ll say something to get that thing. And then literally two hours later, they’ll want something else, hence the heart change. So, they’ll say the opposite thing to get the other thing, and it’s so confusing. So, to have him throw you under the bus at his own wedding, thinking that’s going to benefit him somehow, while also grooming you long term…this is a sure sign that he never loved you. There’s these two simultaneous things that seem contradictory, but they have a goal in mind and they play the long game to get what they want. They’re able to groom you until they get what they want. It just shows how unsafe the situation is for you, psychologically and emotionally. Denise: Yeah, it’s just some crazy stuff so, I ended up leaving again. Financial Abuse Exposed Denise: We ended up going to counseling and while we were in front of this counselor he tells me that “he took all of the money out of the account so that I couldn’t have anything.” I had a new job at this point and I was making a decent amount of money. But he says that in front of the counselor. This is financial abuse. Anne: Absolutely, yeah! Therapist’s Denial Denise: I mean, he said it right in front of the counselor. So months later, when I was trying to get the counselor to write something for me the counselor said, “well, I can’t lie and say he was abusive.” Anne: WHAT?!! Denise: I was like, I’m not asking you to lie. He was abusive right in front of you. He told me in front of you that he took all the money out of the joint account so that I wouldn’t get any. Didn’t you take notes? He never responded. Anne: He wouldn’t even admit your husband doesn’t love you?! Denise: Guess not. Anne: Sorry. This is the woman who’s always telling people therapists don’t get it and I’m like, what? Denise: And then you’re shocked. Yeah. Yeah. Anne: It’s still shocking. When it’s clear…I’m thinking that he’s financially abusive in my head and I’m not saying that out loud. But then, to hear that a therapist just completely doesn’t acknowledge that it’s abuse, is so crazy. Denise: Yeah, I was in like crazy land. Separation and Counseling When He says he Doesn’t Love You Denise: So we’re apart and I’m in my own apartment. I think I just knew myself well enough, that I had to keep trying until I got to a point where I was absolutely sure this was never going to work. So we were apart for like 10 months. I told him I wasn’t going to move back into that other house it’s like, I’m not moving back in there. These are the things I need. While we’re apart, I’m going to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions that are super helpful and really eye opening, but I didn’t quite get it. Then, we ended up getting this house, everything fell into place. I told him, do you really want this? Because if this happens again, I’m leaving and it’s for good. There’s not going to be any more back and forth. He said, “This is it. And of course, oh, yeah, of course. I’m so sorry and all this stuff.” He doesn’t love me anymore: False Promises and Conversion Denise: He decided to become Catholic, so he started learning about the faith and going to church. And he’s like, will you be my sponsor? I’m like, no, if you’re doing this, you’re doing it on your own, cause I knew if I helped in any way he would accuse me of forcing him. So I was like, if you want to become Catholic, that’s your own thing. I never asked you to do it. I’m not pushing you. So he went through the whole process and became Catholic and things got, you know, “better and better.” Denise: And, um, yeah, within nine months, I moved out again. My heart Change: Realization and Education Anne: That point, you’d been going to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions. You’d been more educated about abuse from hearing other women’s stories on this betrayal podcast. So at this point, was it a little bit, I don’t want to say easier cause it’s never easy. And I don’t want to say that it ever is easy. There seems to be some kind of point where it clicks that he never loved you, he’s abusive, and I need to make some changes. At least there was for me where I just knew I wasn’t going to do it anymore. And up until that point, I don’t know if I could have anything else. You know, I was doing the very best I could. Denise: Yeah, absolutely. I knew it was abuse. My friends knew it was abuse. Understanding Abuse Cycles When He says he doesn’t love you Denise: I thought the abuse was happening more often and getting worse over time. We were weaning out of this abusive pattern is what I thought. And so I was like, all right, we’ll just deal with it when we’re in this abusive pattern. Observing and Setting Boundaries Denise: He started seeing a counselor he liked, and things got better. I saw the changes, but I didn’t feel as confident about it as I did before. Before I would argue. When I went back, I was like, I’m not arguing anymore. I’m just going to state what I need and want. That’s it. Then, when I went back the second time, I understood to observe. And then I knew it was time to get out of there. It wasn’t safe. Confrontation with the Priest Denise: He was going to see the priest. And I said, I wanted to go too. So, we went, and literally he was screaming at me the whole time. The priest stood in front of him and tried to talk about integrity. He looked frustrated and finally asked my ex, “Do you even want to be married?” And my ex with this shocked look on his face was like, “Yes. Like, how could you ask that?” Anne: Like, he’s saying, “your husband doesn’t love you. It seems like he hates your guts.” Denise: Right. My ex said he felt trapped. And I was like, then leave! And he wouldn’t leave, I’m like, what is happening? Denise: Yeah. It’s so like ridiculous. Then the priest looked at me and asked, “Do you want to be married?” But I knew if I said no, that would start a ball rolling that I wasn’t ready for. Preparing To Leave Denise: So, I said, I’m not quite sure and, then I got my papers together, got them out of the house, did everything that I could. One of the kids went out with his family, and I thought, “I need to wait until he comes back.” I wanted him to return to school and get comfortable before I left. So, I waited another four or five days, which felt so hard. During that time, I kept telling him, “You’re going down this road, and you need to remember what I said.” If I leave, it’s going to be for good. Is that what you really want? Because that’s the direction you’re choosing. I could have left at any time, but I was praying like, I want the time that’s the best for me, that’s going to be best for the kids. If there is such a thing, that’s when I want to leave. The Decision to Leave When Your Husband is incapable of loving you Denise: And all of a sudden one morning it was like, today. I’m like, all right, today. I’m leaving today. Anne: You bring up a good point, because so many women share, and I was this way, too. It just didn’t feel right to leave and I honor that. And then, at the same time, it’s abuse. There’s no part where you’re going to feel like this is great. It’s just always going to feel terrible. And then, you just realize that he’s never been capable of loving anybody. Denise: Yeah. And it’s never the wrong time to leave either. It’s not like you have to stay until, you know, you can leave whenever. I didn’t think God wanted me in an abusive relationship, and you need this one more little bit of abuse and then you’re good to go or anything like that. You know, I just felt like, all right, I’m good to go. Like I’m ready and it’s time. So, that’s when I left. Biblical Insight When your Husband chooses not to love you Denise: I wanted to see what does the bible say about narcissistic abuse. So I found these verses and I want to read you. I don’t hear anybody talking about. And to me, it has spoken volumes. Anne: Yes, please. Denise: It’s Second Timothy, chapter three, verses one through nine in the revised standard Catholic edition. “In the last days, there will come times of stress. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers.” I don’t even know what this word is, “profligates, fierce, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding the form religion, but denying the power of it. Avoid such people.” I found that and like, a light came down from heaven. It seems to describe narcissism. Anne: Perfectly. Denise: Yeah, perfectly. I don’t know why nobody else is quoting that. And then it says, leave them. Like, don’t be around these people. Anne: I love that scripture. I don’t know if I’ve ever quoted it on the betrayal podcast, but I’m familiar with it for that same reason. Scriptures say all over the place, separate yourself from wickedness repeatedly, over and over. When he can’t love, it’s wickedness. It’s shocking that no one calls these guys wicked. Here’s why. Denise: Yeah. It explains a lot of what evil looks like, and it looks exactly like narcissism. Really intelligent, but at the same time, this four year old tantrum. Anne: Yes. Facing Evil When Your Husband Hates you Denise: Yeah, I would describe my experience as being toe to toe with evil. It’s not For the weak hearted. Anne: No. Women who come and share their story, like you have seen evil, looked evil in the face and had to figure out what to do. When he has never loved us, we felt tricked, but we still tried to do the right thing. It’s so much more difficult than anyone can imagine. Personal Growth Through Adversity When Your Husband Doesn’t Love You Denise: Like at the time, and for a long time afterward, I would not have said this, but I actually am at the point where I look back and I’m like, I like who I am so much better after having gone through this evil situation. If I had to choose between who I was before and who I am now, I would pick who I am now. To become this person, I had to go through this situation, but I would do it all over again. It was hard, but it helped me grow and change for the better. And I think that’s a testament to God, his whole goal is for us to have good, and can bring good out of any horrendous situation. Anne: I get it especially when women are new and they’re not safe yet. The idea that an experience can make someone a better person sounds unfair. It feels like saying, “If you were the person you should be, this wouldn’t have happened to you.” This puts the blame on the person, which isn’t right. Or alternatively, women who are thinking they have to suffer through this, thinking they don’t deserve safety and that God is like using their suffering to make them a better person. God doesn’t want you to suffer because your husband doesn’t love you. He knows you’re not a bad person, and you didn’t deserve this to make you better. You’re a wonderful person now, he loves you just the way you are. And through this awful experience, we do learn interesting things that I’m grateful for. I am grateful that I am the person I am now. Because of what I went through, I have a heart change that values my safety. Practical Lessons Learned When he can’t love Denise: I learned a few practical things. Now, I can see similar situations that I didn’t notice before. I noticed that some people in my life made me feel unsafe, so I decided to cut them out. Now I feel better and more at peace. Before, I didn’t understand that. After I left the last time, I thought I would finally feel relief, but I didn’t. That’s when I saw that a few other people treated me the same way, or in a very similar way. And, it was painful to cut them out, but after I cut them out, I felt the relief. Anne: And that’s why we’re here. Getting to safety is such an individual journey for everyone. The only thing any of us can do on this path is continue to listen to our internal warning system (see our educational infographics about betrayal on Instagram) that is telling us if we’re safe or not, and continue to evolve our boundaries until we feel that relief. It’s our own version of a heart change for the better. And I talk about this in the Living Free Workshop. And then you still don’t feel relief and then you try again and it still isn’t quite working and then you try again like, just as an example, that, Catholic retreat you went to for couples on the verge of divorce. Resisting and Evolving: A heart Change When he doesn’t love you Anne: Did you know that was you resisting this abuse? That was you recognizing that he never loved you, and evolving, having your own heart change. At the time, you thought, “Maybe this couple’s retreat will help me find safety.” And then you learn from experience that it didn’t. So, then you evolved and said, “Okay, now I know I can’t go to therapy with him at all, because he hasn’t had a heart change that made me feel safe.” We grow and change over time. Now, you might say, “I feel relief and safe.” For me, I felt relief when I used the Living Free strategies and gained full custody of my kids. After my divorce, someone hurt me for eight years. I kept wondering, “How can I find real safety?” Then, I found a way to take control and create a safe life for myself and my kids. Support and Solidarity When he says he Doesn’t Love You Anne: I’m so glad that Betrayal Trauma Recovery was helpful to you. Denise: Yeah, it was a lifesaver. I went to groups. For a while I went once a day, and then, the second time I joined, it was a few times a week. The coaches were always amazing and so kind, but also firm and direct. Hearing from the other women really helped me, because you’re in this bubble, kind of, in your relationship. I don’t want to really call it a relationship, in your situation, like you’re the only one experiencing it, so you don’t see all the nuances. I really think evil is not creative. It feels like the same thing keeps happening again and again. That’s why so many stories seem so similar. I remember someone saying she thought she lost something. She searched and searched for it for a long time. Suddenly, I realized, “Oh, that’s what the hiding was about!” It made me remember, “That happened to me, and I didn’t even know it was abuse.” Learning the right words for these things has helped me so much. I am Catholic, and I’m going through the annulment process right now. Thanks to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I learned terms like “mirroring” and “future faking.” With this knowledge, I feel confident and clear as I write my annulment letter. It was helpful to wrap my mind around the truth of this situation, that my husband doesn’t love me. The Truth Will Set You Free: Your Heart Change When Your Husband Doesn’t Love You Anne: I’m so glad it was helpful. My whole goal in life is to help women see the truth, like your husband doesn’t love you or whatever the truth is. Whether it’s painful or not. The Living Free Workshop strategies are a way to observe from a safe distance, so that women see the truth, and have their own heart change for their safety. I’m so glad that you’re safe it’s such a brave thing to share your story and it will help a lot of women. So thank you. Denise: And thank you for everything you do. You’re very courageous. I tell so many women about Betrayal Trauma Recovery.

Transcribed - Published: 2 December 2025

Healing emotional wounds in relationships, especially from a toxic marriage, is vital to our emotional health. Here’s how to find the right support. To discover if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 types of abuse that cause emotional wounds, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Step 1: Recognizing What Caused The Emotional Wounds Understanding emotional abuse is the first step to getting help and staying safe. Before you go to any helping professional, it’s important to be educated about emotional and psychological abuse. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop helps women identify exactly what is causing the emotional wounds. Once you know what the true cause is, you’ll be ready to find the right support to heal. Step 2: Getting Safe Help For Healing Emotional Wounds in Relationships If you discover the emotional wounds are from your husband’s abuse, the next step is to get the support to heal. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today. Here are some examples of when support isn’t emotionally safe enough to help heal your wounds: Has the professional or therapist given equal weight to his abusive narrative, his lies and the truth? Does the support person think that you played a role in causing the abuse? If you haven’t found the right support yet, know that we’re here for you. Listen to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to hear women’s share what resources helped them define what really caused the emotional wounds. Transcript: Healing Emotional Wounds After Trauma Anne: Today I’ll interview a woman who was victimized by a helping professional. We’re gonna call her Esther. Before we get to her story, I’m going to talk about healing emotional wounds from relationships. Step one is recognizing what caused the emotional wounds. If you don’t know what caused it, it’s hard to get the right kind of help. Healing emotional wounds takes the right kind of help. If you go to a professional or therapist, and they give equal value to his abusive narrative or his lies and the truth. That’s not safe. You can’t heal the emotional wounds if they’re still occurring, especially if they’re coming from a helping professional. As Esther shares her story, you’ll see that she correctly identifies what happened to her in her marriage. Then she’s gonna talk about the emotional wounds she received when she went for help. And it wasn’t a safe situation, welcome Esther. I’m so honored that you’d share your story. Will you go ahead and start? Esther: Hi, thank you for having me. So I was married and had a lot of kids. I was a homeschooling mom. And I went online looking for answers. I took some quiz. I think it was a domestic violence recovery organization in the UK. At the end, it said you are being abused, you are being mistreated. And it was the first time those words or thoughts came into my mind. I just never saw that. I always thought, oh, he has ADHD, or depression, or it’s his culture. Seeking Help & Initial Steps Esther: And the fact that I might be intentionally harmed, controlled, and manipulated was a shocking, painful realization. So, I went straight away into the helper mode, okay, what can we do, what can he do, what can I do? And, I went into, support for myself, for DV victims, through my county. I put my kids in counseling, and I asked my husband to please go to abuser counseling. Because I didn’t understand what a deep entrenched issue it was. I thought it was like a mistake or something that could be unlearned. I wasn’t focused on the deep emotional wounds that were occurring at the same time. And I was thinking, well, he’ll just go to a class and realize that this is bad, and we’ll just move on. I just saw it as, okay, let’s fix this. I said, you have to go to a abuser intervention program, you have to do this, or my thought was separation. Divorce wasn’t part of my view as a Christian at that time. I’ve since changed my view. I don’t believe God wants abuse. But at that time, I gave him a list of things to do. They were supposedly proofs that he was changing. It included having a mentor, going to therapy, and going to an abuser program. He went to two abuser groups. He would apologize a lot. And I’d get all these words and flowers. And he just lied to the therapists. He’d manipulate therapists. And that was disturbing, because he used them against me. Anne: Were you aware of any pornography use, cheating, infidelity, or anything like that? Esther: His views of women were warped, very misogynist, using me as an object. Understanding The Depth Of Abuse Esther: I used to put religious labels on this and make it a holy thing. But as I started to get more and more free, I recognized that his view of women was a big part of the mistreatment of me, the emotional wounds were so deep. And unfortunately, that would cause harm to my daughters. That showed me that this was a lot bigger than me. I remember looking at his computer I was like, who is this man really? There were secrets in his life, because he’d hide money from me in a weird way. I homeschooled four kids, and one of them has an autism diagnosis. So that took all my time. And I didn’t really have time to notice or pay attention to myself. I was all about the kids. I was all about trying to teach my son well. When I recognized, I’m an abused woman, I pivoted in my mind, like, how did this happen? How did I end up here? I had a million questions, so I just started reading every book I could. What is abuse? How do I recognize it? What about me made me vulnerable? How do I know he’s changing? So I was just a sponge reading every book I could find. God opened my eyes and I started to see he could stop. It was possible, but he wasn’t. And because of that, we did get divorced, and I started running for personal healing. Anne: Were you partially running toward healing because you were still experiencing abuse? Esther: Oh, that’s an excellent question. I was experiencing post separation abuse. I was still trying to find help. Healing Emotional Wounds While Experiencing Post-Separation Chaos Esther: I went to a parent coordinator, told him everything. It was very traumatizing, because he’d asked me these personal questions. Well, when you did this, how did you feel? When you did this, how did you feel? And I would just be bringing up all these emotionally abusive episodes that resulted in deep emotional wounds, crying, and my ex had no empathy whatsoever. And hoping for help. He just sat there like a stone while I’m crying. And when my ex went to the bathroom, the parent counselor said, I know what’s going on with you. I’ve seen it before. I just want you to know, even if you win, he will make you lose. And I’m like, what? He’s like, yeah, so if you get what you believe is owed to you in court, this guy’s going to come behind you in a covert way and take revenge. And that ended up being true. When I was winning in court, he went after one of my kids in a vicious way. And so I’m trying to get him in home therapy and advocate for him at his school. Meanwhile, he’s just telling lies about me. And I started to wonder, like is he having a psychotic break? Is he actually perceiving reality wrongly? Or is he just lying? Why would he do that? Yeah, so the post divorce time was awful. Anne: I’m guessing people are treating you as if you just need to heal. Rather than recognizing that you can’t even begin to heal because you’re still being abused post divorce. So when women talk to other people and they say well, didn’t you divorce him a year ago? Don’t you just need to move on? Seeking Validation & Understanding Anne: They don’t realize that the abuse you’re experiencing is still real time, like it happened today or yesterday. It’s not something that’s in the past. So many women talk about their PTSD, and I’m like, it’s just TSD. Because it’s not post, it’s current. It’s happening now. You can’t heal from these deep emotional wounds while still experiencing harm. Esther: That’s right. A big question on my heart was, why did he do this? I loved him, I had children with him, why would he treat me this way? And part of that understanding was to help me navigate that extremely difficult post separation period. I read this book by a famous author. Like, oh wow, look at this, look at that. And I remember being very impressed and motivated by the book. Certain ideas in the book were very empowering for me. Because of that, I would quote it to my friends. A lot of us didn’t really have a correct understanding of intentional control or coercive control. When a person intentionally controls another person. By controlling their emotions, information, and I guess the main idea in the book is that it is intentional. So the book felt empowering. Like, this man is choosing to do this to avoid chores and helping with the children. He’s doing it to avoid being equal to me. He’s doing it to gain an advantage over me. And it seemed to answer certain questions I had in my heart, because my ex was covert. In certain ways, I mean, I see it pretty clearly now, but it was so covert. Attending The Retreat To Heal From Relationship Wounds Esther: I had to constantly return to he’s not wanting an equal relationship, he’s wanting power over me. He’s willing to wound me to have that. And I had to continue to go back to it to survive emotionally and help my kids survive. What happened next is, I went to the famous author’s website and found that he offered a retreat for women, leaving abusive relationships. So that they were post abuse. And I thought it might be a good thing for me. So I got someone to watch for my children. Got time off work. I went to the retreat. It was held in a beautiful location. It was green. I went, with a very open heart. Ready to be vulnerable. I was looking forward to a place where I could be very open about what I’d gone through in the marriage. I think many moms who are survivors who have to go to work. We are not really letting people know what we’ve gone through. I definitely didn’t talk about it that much. I was just functioning and trying to get things done and paying the bills. So, I was looking forward to being in a place where I could talk about what had happened and not be judged. And receive healing, wisdom, and validation from other women. I remember when he first walked in the door, he looked at me, he made eye contact, and I noticed him noticing me. And it was like longer than just a normal, hi, how are you? I noticed that I was sort of on his radar. Healing Emotional Wounds And Regaining My Personality Esther: And I was flattered, I was excited. So I’d only been divorced one year, but I was pregnant. Right after my divorce, it wasn’t wise, but I love my baby. He’s amazing. I’m so thankful for him. So I’m going into this retreat to heal from these emotional wounds. They had sent an email. If you have a gift for the group, why won’t you come and perform for us and share it? And I was a certified Zumba instructor. So, I was like, I’m sure I can lead Zumba for you guys. And I also offered to help with karaoke, because I used to sing at different churches. And I did that. Like, yay, let’s do this. Anne: The idea of being seen, your talent’s being seen and appreciated. We don’t feel seen or appreciated in our abusive marriages, so of course you’d be excited about that. Esther: You’re right, yeah, that’s so true. I lost my identity in that marriage. The things that I loved, I sacrificed everything, and when I was divorced, I started regaining my personality. I started remembering, oh, I love to sing. I can sing. Oh, I like to go to the gym. I can go to the gym. My ex didn’t like me going to the gym. So, it was always a stressful thing to go to the gym. I’d be stressed to leave the kids at home. He’d make negative or mocking comments about the gym. So, it was one of the many things I let go of when I was married. Just these aspects of my personality. I’d start to gain them back one at a time. It was amazing. And going to that retreat was supposed to be part of that journey. Uncomfortable Moments At The Retreat Esther: Unfortunately, it took a negative turn. Not immediately, but during that retreat, the famous author was giving me attention. I didn’t think anything unusual of it, because I’m friendly, extroverted, like talking to people, and I like to be an A student. Sort of like, here’s the teacher, let me heal emotional wounds. So I was all in, and he’s like, Oh, do you guys have any questions? And one of my questions was, what advice would you give for a future writer? And he said, well, let’s meet in the morning and talk about it. So he had a writer’s group in the morning, based on that question I had. And he was talking to me a lot. I don’t know if my radar was not recognizing that was unusual, but I liked it. You know, I’m getting all this attention from this famous guy. There was one strange part where we were standing in this circle facing one direction, giving the person in front of us a back rub. Then you turn to the other side and give the other person a back rub. I remember thinking that was strange, because so many of us were survivors of intimate abuse. And we definitely didn’t want people touching us. I remember thinking, ew, I don’t know if I like this, this feels weird. It wasn’t that cool. First Date & Red Flags Esther: Following the retreat, the famous guy and I were emailing. And then we ended up talking on the phone, we ended up chatting it up a bit. It starts to feel kind of datey. I start to gain the vibe he’s interested. And then he decides to visit me in my town, and asked me if he could stay at my house with my kids. Which I thought was super strange. I’m like, I’ve got kids here. No way. So I told him there are many hotels near my house, so he stayed at a hotel. After these weeks of flirty emailing and phone calls, we meet early in the morning on our first date. And we’re together the whole day. We’re holding hands. We’re kissing. It’s very romantic. He seemed great. However, as the day went on, when we were talking in different places. I remember noticing that something was off in how he was acting. I noticed there were two voices, there was like the professional guy, that was like, oh, I’m so sweet and I’m so empathetic to you. Then there was another voice, and when that second voice came out, I started getting fear in my stomach. It was like an internal alarm. Just feminine intuition, he didn’t do anything violent, part of my mind is panicking. Like, who am I here with? Then the other part was like, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m imagining it. Later on, we were in his hotel room. We started to get more physical. He went faster than I wanted. He did more than I wanted him to do, and I asked him to stop. Healing Emotional Wounds In Relationships: When The Help Makes It Worse Esther: He did stop. I remember him lying on his back, looking up at the wall with this, like, cold face. Kind of pissed off, like angry. I didn’t know he’d be furious about that. When I look back, I’m like, oh, he probably just came for sex and was probably irritated when it didn’t happen. The next morning, I made him, breakfast. He was just looking at me like, what is your problem? And, I don’t know if the word is scared, but I cannot wait till he’s gone. And then he finally left. He said goodbye, smiled this like a fake smile at me, and then he turned and he was cold as ice and irritated. I’ll never forget the way his face changed. It was shocking. I felt this pain throughout my body. Like, in my brain. My thoughts were not connecting. I was ruminating about the situation. It just kept going around and around in circles like how the heck could that man be this? When he’s writing these books. Who is he even? He’s acting this way with someone healing from emotional wounds in relationships? Anne: All women resist abuse, and that’s something people don’t understand. It gets turned into victim blaming, rather than realizing that any woman who’s been victimized will want to piece her dignity back together. Sometimes confronting an abuser is a way that we feel like we might piece our dignity back together. Can you talk about that? Esther: I didn’t immediately cut off communication, because I didn’t want it to be true. It’s like, no, this could not be possible. I guess I was in disbelief. When Professionals Prey On Women Esther: I didn’t want people to read a book by this guy and then go to his retreats, and he’s a jerk. It was horrible. I was like, can that actually be true? You know, like I wanted my world to make more sense. I wanted the guy from the book back. Anne: Because you felt so validated in his books. Does it invalidate all these things you learned? And maybe it’s your fault, like your husband said? So you experience additional abuse while healing emotional wounds from your past relationship. Esther: Yes, that’s exactly it. Does it make his books wrong? For a long time, I wanted it to be my fault. Because that was better than knowing that this guy with this great book everyone loves is fake. I’d rather, something was wrong with me. You know, I didn’t want to discover what I discovered. Even when it was over with him and me, and I processed it. I was like, that was weird that he dated me after I was at the retreat when he’s basically a counselor. You know, not someone who charges for a retreat. He knows what power is. He understands power differentials. And he knows, he knows that’s not right. It feels so yucky. Like, why do I have so much trauma from this? Like, why is my brain getting numb? It doesn’t feel like, oh, I went on a date and it was a bad date. It feels more violating. I decided to research and try to find out if there were more victims, I met some of those people, and I found out that I was not alone. If you really want to test out, if a man is abusive, tell him no. Futility Of Confronting The Abuser Anne: Yeah, you told him no and you saw what happened, and then you had it confirmed by these other victims who had experiences with him. I’m so glad you got that validation from those other women. I want to pause right here and talk about one section of that book at the end. It says something like, to change these guys, everyone would need to confront them. You know, the therapist, their church leader, the police, like everybody in the community. We’re all desperate for our abuser to change, when healing from emotional wounds in relationships. So that we can keep our family together. I mean, I’ve interviewed over 300 abuse victims, long form interviews like this one, hour long interviews. So what victims take from his writing is the impression that even if it’s a long shot. I’m going to see if I can get the therapist, clergy, police, and his mother and everyone to confront him. And then maybe he’ll see the light, maybe that will save my marriage. I tried that, I think so many women have, and it didn’t work. The court didn’t hold my ex accountable. In fact, when I tried to reduce his custody for abusing my kids, the court gave him more custody. And I sought God’s help to discover what would free me from my ex’s abuse, and through that, I discovered these great strategies. that I put in the Living Free Workshop. I had to do it like that, because it’s not like anything anybody has ever heard before. And I had to set it up the right way. Healing Emotional Wounds By Using our Workshop Strategies Anne: So The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop helps women understand who they are, and then how to strategically deal with them. And helps them get to emotional and psychological safety, when healing from these emotional wounds from marriage. However, that looks for you. And then observe from a safe distance. Because many of us have been manipulated to be detached from our intuition. Through the Living Free Workshop, through everything I do here at BTR. My hope is to give women the confidence to reconnect with their gut, and you did that. On that date with him, your intuition was warning you, and you listened. Even if you didn’t want it to be true, you took at least a mental step back and started observing. That will always lead victims to the truth. Esther: That’s so true. Wow, that’s amazing. Yeah, because I confronted him. Can’t you at least admit, you shouldn’t be dating the women you teach about abuse? It did not go well. My husband was gaslighting. I left that 30 minute conversation feeling completely confused. I was like, that was not wise. Which is interesting that he would actually give advice to confront people. Anne: Because they actually like confrontation. The Living Free strategies came to me over years of all these interviews, but also my own experience. And one of the things I saw over and over again was in custody cases. Where the women had a lot of proof of their abuse. Even then, the abusers walk into court, super excited and happy. Court really stresses victims out. I mean, we think it’s miserable and super stressful. This type of abuser likes the confrontation that the court affords them. Abusers Like To Fight Esther: That’s true. They like to fight. Anne: And so if they can get hold of something, some emotion, something we want from them. It could be an apology, it could be that they stop doing what they’re doing, anything. The only thing they see is a way to manipulate us. That’s it. That’s why observing from a safe distance is safer for victims, rather than trying to get him to do something. Whether that be an abusive husband, ex-husband, therapist or counselor. Esther: Absolutely. Anne: Well, Esther, thank you so much for sharing your story. I know it’s been so traumatic. I think it’s important to hear these stories, so women know what can happen when they go for help. And how to recognize the right kind of help. Because it’s impossible heal from emotional wounds if we’re still receiving emotional wounds. So thank you so much for sharing your story today.

Transcribed - Published: 18 November 2025

You might think you already know the answer to this question: “What does God say about divorce?” But here’s the thing, the Bible has told righteous people throughout all of time to separate themselves from wickedness. The word we use today for “wickedness” is abuse. So the first step to knowing what God may want you to do about your marriage is to discover if you’re experiencing emotional abuse. Click here to take my free emotional abuse quiz. Transcript: What Did God Say About Divorce? Anne: I have a member of our community. On today’s episode, we’re gonna call her Kayla. She’s going to be sharing her story. Kayla is a woman of faith. Part of her story is sharing when she realized she didn’t need to listen to what her pastor said. Or people at her church, so that she could develop her own relationship with God. And find out for herself what God says about divorce and marriage. If you’re not a woman of faith, if you’re agnostic or atheist, her story will still relate to you. I don’t know why modern Christianity has taken this stance that the “other people” are dangerous. But refuse to see that maybe someone living in your own home is dangerous. The scriptures are clear about God’s stance on divorce and marriage. 4 Scriptures That teach what God Really Says About Divorce Here are four that might help: Proverbs 22:3 “The prudent see danger and take refuge.” So that means that we should separate ourselves from dangerous people. II Corinthians 6: 17 “Therefore, come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing that I will receive you.” They’re talking about somebody who lies to you, somebody who is exploiting women. Matthew 10:16 “I’m sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and innocent as doves.” That’s talking about strategy, and you can learn more about what strategies we recommend. By enrolling in the Living Free Workshop. Get more information about that by clicking on this link. John 16: 13 “The Spirit of truth will guide you into all truth.” Obviously, God wants us to be safe and loves us, and that clergy or anyone else interprets scriptures to oppress us and tell us what God says about divorce and marriage,That’s spiritual abuse. And Kayla’s gonna share her story. The Holy Spirit warns and guides us. He helps us recognize danger and make decisions to protect ourselves. Kayla’s Early Relationship Anne: So welcome, Kayla. Kayla: I’m glad to be here. Anne: Let’s start at the beginning when you first met, did you recognize his abusive behaviors? Kayla: Well, no, from the start he carried himself as a complete gentleman. We worked together at a Fortune 500 company. When we met, he kept boundaries. That made me believe he had values. He appeared to have everything I wanted, handsome, courteous, church going and a family man. We had a lot of the same interests, new restaurants, bowling and cruising. His family loved me. My family loved him. He put me on a pedestal. And of course. I loved it. So I painted this picture of him, like this church going person with character. I couldn’t see him for who he was. You know, his behavior was subtle, like of financial, understanding or miscommunication. And I just kind of attributed to his upbringing. We had kids pretty quickly. So three to four years into our marriage, I wasn’t feeling the connection anymore and I was trying to improve our relationship. I thought that God was clear on divorce and marriage. I tried having deep conversations with him, but he often fell asleep or said we can talk later. But later never came. And he had this tendency to not follow through, and he was having this trouble not only at home, but also at work. Work & Home Challenges Kayla: He was an IT person, and when he wasn’t going to his customer’s desk to help them, he would fall asleep. When he did his work, he made mistakes when he had to write-up. The write up of what he did, he forgot to do it. Many times it went missing. He didn’t follow through. So he was getting to the point where they were putting him on probation. Because he was sleeping on the job because he wasn’t doing his job. And the same things I was seeing at home, not following through, falling asleep in the middle of a conversation. So it’s what led me to say maybe you need to get in a professional evaluation. Anne: Okay, so you’re thinking, let’s see if something’s wrong. Just hearing this part, I wonder if he wasn’t paying attention, because he was doing stuff late at night. Where he wasn’t getting a lot of sleep and distracted with the double life he had going on. That’s my prediction, so we’ll talk about it a little later. Okay, so he gets diagnosed? Kayla: He was diagnosed with ADD. He got on a DD medicine, and that seemed to help him at work. I didn’t get the benefits. Even though he claimed to be taking a second pill when he got home. I didn’t see the benefits of the follow through, the discipline, the focus at all. I thought his forgetfulness, his lack of follow through, his emotional distance were all symptoms he couldn’t fully control and I just felt I needed to be patient and supportive. What Does God Say About Divorce And Marriage? Efforts to Improve Kayla: Like I set times, let’s talk every night at nine o’clock. Let’s talk about our feelings, let’s talk about our relationship, our finances. But most of those conversations, I was left feeling empty and unimportant. And yes, we sought counseling. We went to yearly marriage conferences with our church. We went to a pastor for advice and support. I was trying to hard to honor what God wanted in my marriage and to save us from divorce. So I suggested and we attend couples therapy to help our relationship. I met with the therapist. He met with the therapist, and we met once a month. We paid over $7,000 for 13 weeks Christian transformation sessions. And besides, we were the president of the marriage ministry, helping others with their marriage. I did a lot of personal reflection and improvement. I took the time when he came home, that first 30 minutes, to let him be to himself. Here’s What God Says About Divorce And I remember coming home from the marriage conference, learning that our bodies were not ours. And we should meet our spouse’s needs. Whenever they asked, I tried it. And without the emotional connection, I felt hollowed, used. I just couldn’t do that. Anne: Right. Kayla: I read books, books like Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus, How to Have a Healthy Marriage. Our marriage vows before God made it harder, I think, for me to see the truth. Because I was deeply rooted in the idea that my marriage covenant was sacred and unbreakable. So it kept me focused on holding the relationship together at all costs. So I stayed with prayer, effort, and patience, while my ex-husband didn’t seek to improve. And I just kept praying and putting the effort in. Thinking I knew what God thought about divorce and marriage, and that I had to make it work. Realization Of Deeper Issues Kayla: I don’t know anyone who has put more effort into trying to hold their marriage together. I just did a lot to try to hold our marriage together. Anne: When did you start realizing that all of this concerted effort was not working . Kayla: Wow, so we attended this 13 weeks of extensive Christian transformation marriage sessions. It required that we work on a different aspect of our marriage every night. So we met in the weekly sessions. We had sessions directly with the Christian coaches, and we did something at night. Anne: Was there abuse education as part of this intensive? Kayla: No, it was all about seeking God, praying for your spouse, building your spouse up, looking at things differently. It was all saying that God hated divorce, and I had to save my marrriage. Anne: So there was no abuse education whatsoever. Kayla: Not at all. So we were talking every night. He started to come to bed, which you were alluding to. Many nights he did not come to bed. He stayed up all night long. And so things started feeling better. So much so that I believed we had reached a good place. But then things started happening again. I started feeling disconnected, and I went to him for some tweaks. Instead of trying to understand what I was feeling, what I was thinking. He started deflecting and minimizing, and started talking about how he didn’t feel loved. And I put my feelings aside, and I asked him. Send me an email to explain why you don’t feel love and what it would look like for you to feel love. Confronting The Truth Kayla: He emailed me a letter. In this letter, he wrote things like, I would like you to serve me a plate of food and bring it to me. After intimacy, I want you to get me a cold drink. I want you to dress provocatively for our nights out. I was just floored, he wanted me to do his chores. That was his responsibility in the house, like taking out the trash, pulling the cans to the street. And that letter, I realized I didn’t know this man I was married to. And I realized it had to do with his wants and removing his responsibilities in the house, more than me showing love to him. Anne: Right. Kayla: And that’s when I realized something is desperately wrong. And then I went back to our therapist, and I said, I want to ask him about watching exploitative material. Because early on in our marriage, it had come up. I caught I caught him looking at it, and he said, oh, if you don’t want me to look at it, I won’t look at it anymore. I believed him, but didn’t believe him. So what I mean by that is, every now and then I would check his computer. I would check his phone, nothing. Nothing was there at all. But in that therapy session, when I asked the question, he looked down, his face looked flooded with shame, almost in tears. And he admitted he was addicted and had been since he was a teenager. He rationalized it in his mind that it was okay, because he wasn’t touching a woman in the flesh. It was at that moment that I realized that all the work I had been doing didn’t matter. What Does God Say About Divorce And Marriage? He Admits He’s An Addict Kayla: All the work that my therapist had done to build our relationship only worked in a healthy relationship. And I realized we didn’t have one. For 24 years he had been watching exploitative material. And later to find out so much more than that, but he said he had been watching it all day long. Anne: And all night long. Kayla: All night long. Anne: Was my prediction accurate? That’s why he was so tired and distracted? Kayla: Your prediction is 100% correct. He was up late at night. And one of my complaints was, why don’t you come to bed? And he would say, I’m not sleepy, and when I do come to bed too early, I can’t fall asleep. I just lay in bed. Anne: Says the man who’s falling asleep all the time. Kayla: Yes. Anne: Mm-hmm, yeah, so when he tells you he’s been using, it’s not the whole truth at this point. Is he identified as an addict? Kayla: He identified himself as a addict. But really, it was that moment, that moment when I realized the extent of his betrayal, just to paint the picture for you. I never thought he could deceive me, especially not in that way. So everything about us changed, and I realized I needed to rely on God. So my prayer just became God, uproot what’s in me, what’s in my husband, what’s in my marriage that’s not of you, I still was not considering divorce. God, give my husband what he needs to be disciplined, focused, and changed. And if he’s not going to put the work in, do not let me move forward until you’ve made it clear that he’s changed and repentance of the heart. Never Thinking It Could Be More Kayla: I was so up in the head from the fact that he had deceived me. I had to rely on God. But even then, I would’ve never thought it could be more. Because we did almost everything together. He didn’t hang out. We went to work. He came home, he went to church, he came home. But he was manipulating things, so his phone, he was going in incognito mode. On the computer, he was going into private browsing. When he went to the store, he went to a sex massage parlor. Or when we were on vacation finding a street prostitute. I just had no idea that any of this was going on. SAI asked him to go into a recovery program. He started SA, but he was only going once a week to say he was going. He wasn’t doing any of the work. I then joined Infidelity Survivors Anonymous. I spoke privately to someone in the group, and she recommended I receive a full disclosure and a polygraph test. Because he might be doing more than pornography. And that’s what prompted me to eventually ask him if he had cheated with anyone during our marriage, under the certainty that he would have to take a polygraph test. That’s when things started becoming a little bit clearer. Because my ex was so covert, I kept saying, my ex just has a DD. My ex would never do that to me. You know, he loves me. He’s trying, I was still making excuses for him in my head. I was thinking about forgiveness and mercy, and that’s what God wanted in my marriage, not divorce. Anne: I wouldn’t say you’re making excuses per se. I think you’re still resisting the abuse. Emotional & Financial Abuse Anne: Safety is always a top priority for women. You’ve been trying to get to safety this whole time. You’re trying to get to emotional safety, you’re trying to get to psychological safety. You’re doing this through getting his ADD diagnosis through counseling. These are forms of resistance to abuse. You are really safety focused this entire time. So it’s not that you’re in denial, it’s that you’re trying to get to safety with the information you have at the moment. So you can let yourself off the hook you only knew what you knew at that time. God wants us to be safe in our marriage, even if that means divorce. Kayla: Right, at that moment I thought he only had an addiction. And I would’ve put my hands on the Bible that he never touched another woman. So when we had a therapy session. I asked him the question knowing that he was gonna have to take a polygraph test, and he said, yes, my brain left my body. Like I felt the abuse instantly. It was like, what just happened? How could he have been pretending to be this man of God, this deacon at church? This church school teacher, all this time, telling me how much he loved me and was trying to do better. It made everything that I was thinking. That he was gaslighting me or deflecting and minimizing, and he was telling me that. Oh no, that’s not what’s happening. Oh, you are misinterpreting that. It made everything true for me. He had not only been emotionally abusing me, but also financially abusing me. Because he was going to these massage parlors and with street prostitutes. I remember going to my therapist and saying to her, he’s deflecting, he has cognitive distortion. What Does God Say About Divorce And Marriage? Therapist’s Perspective Kayla: He’s selfish. At this point, she agrees with everything. And I said, when I look this up, it says this is all abuse. She’s like, it is. And I was shocked, like, why didn’t you tell me this? She said, well, I was treating him for these things in the hopes that I can help him get to the place where he can set goals. And work the goals, and be the person you were trying to get him to be. Anne: Wow, wow. Kayla: Yeah. Anne: That is so insane, to be like I knew he was abusive. I had a therapist say the same thing to me. And I was like, it would be better if you said I didn’t know. Than to say I knew and didn’t tell you, because I thought I could change an abuser who is also lying to me. It’s like wild, that was really, really crazy. Kayla: It was crazy, because I was doing anything and everything. And it had got to the point where I said to her, when I walk into my house, I feel bad energy. I’m not happy at home. Like I feel like running, I feel trapped. Now I’m finding out like there’s a clear reason why I felt that way, because of what was really going on. And like you said, I was seeking safety. And I didn’t even realize I was seeking safety. I didn’t realize how much confusion I was under. I didn’t realize the person who said they would love me and take care of me for life was the one hurting me the most. God says “The prudent see danger and take refuge.” This was advice for marriage and divorce. Seeking Clarity & Space Anne: And deceiving you on purpose, and that is so, so painful. When we can finally wrap our heads around it. But it’s so difficult to perceive of that. It’s like mind bending. God says, “He will lead you to all truth.” about divorce and marriage. Kayla: Yeah, so I had to decide what to do now. And it took me a minute, my brain was still confused. I was still going back. No, he would never do that. Oh no, he’s a nice guy. Oh, no, he cried at our wedding. So, I just needed him to leave my space, to get clarity. What is really going on? I asked him to leave the home. To give me that space, to do the research. To listen to podcasts, to do my reading to understand who he was and what he had been doing all along. So I found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast. And you talked about betrayal trauma, and basically that’s what I was going through, right? And that’s when I started listening to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcasts. It was like an aha moment. Like listening to women tell their stories, and like, oh my goodness, that’s me. Oh my goodness, yeah. I felt that way. It just confirmed everything that I was thinking, feeling, and understanding. Why other people couldn’t see it, right? Because he was Mr. Nice guy. Everyone loved him. He walked on water. And even though I’m telling people what he’s doing, what he did, they couldn’t see that. They couldn’t hear me and how I felt alone. Even with my friends, but listening to BTR, it was like, okay, I’m not alone. I’m not crazy. Realizing The Extent Of Abuse Kayla: There’s a reason why people don’t understand it. It’s all part of the facade. It’s all part of the abuse, the intentional intentional abuse. To keep the two separate, to make sure they think I’m the perfect person, because I will need them to support me at some point. So the help I got by listening to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And knowing that I wasn’t alone, and everything I was feeling was real. But even with all that, I still said I would stay in this relationship, if I can see that he repented. And I just continued to pray to God, and eventually I got the clarity that he was not going to change. God was telling me what to do about divorce and marriage. This is who he is. That person I was trying to return to who I thought I was marrying, didn’t exist. He’s this person here, I need to admit that this is who he is. And all these years, I’ve just been under emotional, financial, and intiamate abuse, and that was hard to swallow. But once I got there. Once I got that peace from God, that this is what’s going on. That’s when I finally am able to say I want a divorce. I think the biggest thing is why it took me 24 years to realize I was being abused, right? As much as I knew something was wrong, as much as I was stressed out. I felt like I was carrying the weight of the family financially. As much as I knew I was carrying that weight, I just thought it was what a wife should do. Stand by her man. What God Says About Divorce And Marriage When Experiencing Covert Abuse? Kayla: I didn’t know about covert, passive aggressive behaviors, and that’s what he was doing. I didn’t realize I had these thousand little cuts, and he was giving me these little bandaids to prevent the bleed out. Because everything he did, he did it under the pretense of, it was not my intention to hurt you. I’m so sorry. I love you. It hurts me when you don’t smile. We had a cycle of highs and lows that ironically strengthened the emotional ties I had to him. And I clung to moments of kindness or affection, believing that was an indication of change in his behavior. I think also because of the good guy persona, right? I also wondered what was wrong with me. It appeared I had this good man, who went to work, went to church, and loved me. He just struggled with connection and consistency. But that’s because of the ADD. He wasn’t intending to hurt me. As this loving, supportive wife, it’s my job to support, help him, even if I’m drowning. perception, leadingAlso just doubting myself, like everyone on the outside saw him as this perfect man. He had a reputation, and everyone loved him. That he was kind, charming, funny, and I didn’t see that complete person in my home. I allowed the confusion to trump how I felt by how others viewed him. And it caused me to question my own perception, leading to just more confusion and self-doubt. But I think one of the bigger things was my faith. We were the presidents of the marriage ministry, and we were consistent churchgoers. I wanted to be a good example to God of not getting divorced and staying in my marriage. Faith & Personal Growth Kayla: And we were conditioned to prioritize forgiveness, patience, and harmony over our own wellbeing, which made it difficult to recognize that abuse. It’s not two people trying to make a relationship work, but when you go to people and they say to you, just pray harder. What’s your part in this? And you constantly keep saying, well, I need to do this because I made a commitment before God. Understanding what God says about divorce and marriage is confusing. All those things makes it hard to see the abuse for what it is. Because no one brings up the word abuse because it’s not physical. And also it’s a lot of little things over time that I didn’t realize. You know, this may sound really crazy. I am closer to God. Than I’ve ever been right now because I realized the difference. I was committed to the church, to the religion, but I needed to build my own relationship with God, hear God for myself. And not hear other people’s interpretation of what he was saying to me. You know, I was listening to the preachers, when they say, divorce is not an option. The Bible doesn’t say divorce is not an option. I needed to get in God’s face and to understand what he was saying to me. And not what other people thought it should be. My mom passed away from Covid in April of 2020, and I was crushed. I fell on my face and I couldn’t get back up for it felt like years. Like losing her left a void. When I fell on my face in my marriage, it was different. I got back up so much faster, but the damage felt so much worse. God’s Protection & Strength Kayla: Why? because I realized through the grief that God is my comforter, that he’s my strength, and that he’s my everything and that I need to rely on him. Not anyone else. And even though I lost friends, I lost my church. I had God to help me through this process, the healing process. So I look at it differently, meaning that I have my own personal relationship with God not depending on other people interpretations. Anne: A lot of women describe that time of being faithful, but feeling like God cared about the marriage. Or God cared about your husband, but he didn’t care about me, kind of a feeling. And then, realizing that God loves you and he really cares. He wants you to be safe. It’s such a different place to have that relationship just with God caring about how you feel. Than thinking that God doesn’t care about you unless you check off all these boxes. Kayla: 100%, I did go through that feeling , I felt it when I lost my mom. Like, how could you do this God? With this situation, I felt it again, God, what did I do to deserve this? Right? And I had to realize He didn’t want me to feel like that, but on the other side of it, I said, you know what, God gave me two beautiful children from this. God loved me. God protected me while my ex was out there sleeping with prostitutes. He protected me. God gave me the strength to be able to walk away from that marriage and even more. So he allowed me to align with him. God was telling me it was okay divorce and leave my marriage. God says to Trust Intuition In Divorce And Marriage Kayla: And as much as my ex did to me and the pain he caused me, he is in a worse situation than I’m in. I have found peace in God. I know that I’m loved by God. And I know that I’m a better person, even though I went through that. I’m a stronger person now. I’m more determined now. I understand where my strength comes from. I understand where my peace comes from. The intuition that was happening throughout our marriage that I was getting constantly. Anne: Mm-hmm. Kayla: Not having all the pieces together. I understand it now. I understand that was God talking to me the whole time and I didn’t put all the pieces together. But now moving forward, I learned to trust my intuition more. Because I know that God’s talking to me and telling me my safety is important in divorce and marriage. And I know that God loves me and I know that God is going to give me all that I lost in those years with my ex. Through the pain with my ex and the finances with my ex, that he’s going give all that back to me.I know that everyone that listens to your podcast may not worship God, but I want everyone to trust your intuition. Trust what you’re seeing moreso than what you are hearing. I listened to the words and I didn’t really watch the actions. Watch how do you feel, because no matter what their intention is how do you feel, what’s the impact to you? Because you’re important, and if you’re getting the impact, the intention doesn’t even matter. Research & Confirmation Kayla: Do the research. It was the research that made things a lot clearer for me when I was in this place of going back and forth. Not my acts, not mine, not mine, and made it clear. And the confirmations would just come. I would read something in the book and then I would see him do it. I was always taught what happens in your home, in your marriage. You don’t talk about, but if you are seeking help and you find someone to help you make sense of things. I would advise you to have that conversation. Because when I finally did she had so many answers for me. She had been through something similar. She understood the abuse, and it was the only place that I really got the clarity of what this abuse looked like, so trust your intuition. Anne: I love that through this process, women discover how smart, wise, and how capable they are. And realize that they were resisting the whole time and they were doing what they were supposed to do. You went for help to multiple, multiple places. That’s what someone smart does. And you got the wrong information. And once you got the right information, you were able to make good decisions for yourself fairly quickly, and you would’ve made those decisions earlier if you had the information at that time. But the good news is you did the right thing the entire time. You are so brave and capable and have an amazing life ahead of you, Kayla: Sometimes people stay together for their children. Reflections On Children & Conversations Kayla: He was hurting me, it was hurting my children in my home. My daughter was affected, to the point where she has a hard time vocalizing how she feels. She felt something was wrong all along, but didn’t know what it was. She learned to stuff her feelings because of that. Sometimes when we think we are doing a justice by not having certain conversations with our children, we’re doing them an injustice. and I believe that. Me finding out about my ex not only saved me, it saved my daughter and helped her to know that she needed to, learn to use her voice. It saved my son who did not understand the dangers of it. It’s a conversation that I can freely have with other people in my family, which is usually a taboo conversation. The conversation is always, this is what boys do. So it’s very important to have these conversations, I believe, especially when someone in your family has this addiction. To have this conversation with others, children and so on. Anne: Yeah. That’s so important. Well, Kayla, thank you so much for sharing your story today. I appreciate your bravery and your willingness to share so that other women could benefit from your experience with what God says about divorce and marriage. Kayla: Thank you. I appreciate you for having me.

Transcribed - Published: 4 November 2025

Husband future faking is when a husband uses promises about the future (trips, counseling, moving, budgets, a baby, “I’ll change”) to control what you do today, delaying consequences, buying time, and keeping access, without producing consistent, verifiable change. Future faking = promises now, no follow-through later. It spikes after discovery (you catch lies, porn, affairs, money issues). Real change is quiet, boring, measurable for months, not speeches. Protect your safety and watch behavior. 10 Signs Your Husband Is Future Faking Vague timelines: “Soon,” “after things calm down,” no date ever sticks. You do the labor: You plan/pay while he “tries.” Brief performance, then slide. Story keeps shifting: New reasons each week why the plan moved. No transparency: Secret devices, hidden accounts, locked phone habits. Grand gestures after discovery: Big promise wave right after you find evidence. Love-bomb sandwich: Promise → short effort → quiet backslide → new promise. Pressure to trust, not verify: You’re “negative” if you ask for proof. Budget “tomorrow,” spending “today”: Money talks don’t match transactions. Therapy as theater: He “goes to therapy,” but honesty and access never change. Your gut stays tense: Your body doesn’t feel safer despite the speeches. Future Faking vs. Real Change (side-by-side) Future Faking (Control) Real Change (Safety) Big speeches, airy timelines He does the thing. You carry logistics & cost He does it and pays for it. Secret phones/finances Full access (devices, locations, budget) Mood swings around scrutiny The thing he said would be done is done. Short “streaks,” then relapse Months of consistency, verified To see if it’s real, you don’t need to chase updates. The thing he spoke about will come to fruition without you checking up on it. Why Husbands Future Fake Delay consequences: Pause separation, legal steps, or financial boundaries. Maintain access: Home, money, sex, reputation, kids. Manage your emotions: Replace your alarm with hope—then run the same play again. How to Know If He’s Future Faking Document behavior, not speeches Create a promise log (date → promise → deadline → outcome → notes). Screenshot texts, calendar invites, bank statements. Patterns beat arguments. Move from talk to tests In your mind, move to thinking about observable checkpoints (e.g., “By [date], I’ll check to see if I have access to the bank account.”) (Notice: no threats, no explanations. You protect your peace and watch behavior.) Examples of Husband Future Faking “We’ll start counseling next month.” “I’ll quit porn; you have to trust me.” “I’ll fix the money stuff.” FAQs About Husband Future Faking Is husband future faking a form of emotional abuse? Yes. It manipulates your decisions today with promises that rarely materialize, keeping you in harm’s way emotionally. How long should I wait for “real change”? Look for months of quiet, consistent, verifiable behavior, without you bringing it up again. Should I confront him about future faking? Debate often feeds the cycle. Document, set boundaries, and observe from a safe distance. Next steps (support that centers your safety) Living Free Workshop: step-by-step effective boundaries (thought, action, communication) with practical examples. BTR Group Sessions: live, daily online groups to support you. Free Emotional Abuse Quiz on btr.org to name what’s happening and get tailored resources. Transcript: Is Your Husband Future Faking? Here’s How To Tell Anne: So, I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Mackenzie. Welcome. Mackenzie: So I happened to be at a conference, and there was a wonderful speaker there, and she introduced him. She talked a little bit about his story and sort of a larger context. And she’s a wonderful speaker and writer. She really sold him. So when I met him in person a month later. I had such a favorable impression. Anne: This happens with people who maybe get set up or people who attend the same congregation or workplace. Where his reputation sort of precedes him. It’s coming from other people, there’s kind of an automatic trust, because other people have vouched for him ahead of you meeting him. Mackenzie: Absolutely, yeah, when you have multiple solid professionals, people in the public eye. Who have these favorable relationships. There was a counselor, and they were a strong supporter, even financially with some of his work. So there was just a legitimacy. Early Red Flags of Husband Future Faking Mackenzie: Is my husband a jerk? And now with the benefit of hindsight, and more than a decade later, I can see that he carefully crafted this image. At least at the time I met him, he had done a pretty good job of it. He had obtained some prestigious fellowships. You know, you’re like, how did I not see it? But the truth is, how did they not see it? I was new in that space with important people surrounding him, and he really exploited that. I felt a little awestruck that he and I would have a conversation. Our relationship developed because he reached out and asked me to be part of these different groups. I think he added me on social media, and sent me a message. He started to ask me to do things, and I think that’s really important, because it was a low time in my life. And feeling like I could make a difference for a cause greater than myself was appealing. I was at the tail end of being part of a religious group, and I was looking for a place to belong. You hear a story of suffering, pain, and injustice. Regardless of the origin of the story, there’s a tenancy toward wanting to help. He wanted to use my speaking and writing skills for his organization. Kind of an informal, volunteer sort of thing. We would have different touch points, whether it was like a meeting, action or activity. He was definitely orchestrating the crossing of paths. How Husband Future Faking Lures You In (Moving In, Promises, and Red Flags) Mackenzie: I was taking the LSAT. I had ambitions of being a lawyer. I think he felt that between my skills with writing, speaking, and then studying the law, I would be really helpful. Whether it was can you write this grant proposal for me? When you’re a good writer, it’s apparently an in demand skill that not great people want to access for themselves. It was a perfect storm. I had no idea what I was getting involved with, none. Never in my wildest dreams did I believe that a person who presented like this could use other people around them to cover up. I was really, really conflicted when he showed interest. Anne: Talk more about the conflict you experienced. Mackenzie: He claimed he and his ex spouse had attorneys working on their case. We are separated, it’s nearly done. I was so naive. He began to ask me, do you want to live with me in this fancy high rise apartment downtown? He didn’t live there, and he never ended up living there. Because he was future faking. Anne: Also, there’s probably some manipulation in terms of flattery. This person everybody else says is amazing, thinks I’m worth his attention. And this is how good they are at manipulation. Mackenzie: Yeah, it’s true. I wasn’t in need of anything from him. But I was lonely. I moved in with him. I had never had intercourse before. And I had my own career. Around the time I was like, it’s just not working. It’s just toxic. Too much conflict. I found out I was expecting my child. And I was raised in an environment where a two parent family is everything. Discovering the Truth: When Husband Future Faking Turns Into Betrayal Makenzie: I was trying my hardest to make that work for what I believed was the right thing for my child. I even remember like a physical change in myself, the night I found out I was expecting. It was like I couldn’t fully stand up for myself anymore with him. I had to change myself so that he would respond more favorably. So that the environment for our child and me would be safer. I know now that’s not good. At the time, I thought I would work hard to help better our lives. When I knew something was really, really wrong, though. In the middle of my pregnancy, he was asleep and it was late. He locked his phone down. I’ve never met another person who locked down their devices to this degree. Who took them everywhere, bathroom, anywhere. I somehow got in his phone, and I found a conversation with a stranger, aggressively soliciting for it. And I was like in shock. I mean, I’m pregnant, and I’m terrified. I’m like, I need to get tested for STDs. You know, a range of thoughts. I was like shaking, and then I went and woke him up and confronted him. Probably the dumbest thing I could have done. And he just kind of sat there for a long time, and then he told me a story. He was trying to entrap the police, by reverse stinging their stings. The next day I had work, and after work I stayed somewhere else. I was like, I need to think. And then within a few days, I joined affair therapy groups and stuff. If your husband is acting like a jerk and you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today. After the Promises: Therapy, Financial Abuse, and Husband Future Faking Mackenzie: Abuse wasn’t part of the conversation. It was a lot of just focusing on what you can do for yourself in your own situation. That’s the irony, I’m stuck in this dude’s mess. In the distraction of therapy groups, . And, I end up like, you know, moving back with him. Anne: You don’t know what you don’t know. Mackenzie: No, you don’t! Exactly! And when you’re raised in that church environment, you’re taught to trust people. I’m not looking for something I don’t know exists. Anne: Yeah, a church setting, they’re not like, this is wickedness. Mackenzie: Right. Anne: Avoid these people in your own home. They’re more like, there’s these bad people outside that are like, far away from us. Mackenzie: Right, the others. Anne: Yeah, exactly, rather than your own husband, or partner. Mackenzie: Yeah. Anne: The person close to you, is he a jerk or an evil person? Mackenzie: Exactly, he’s the person you’re supposed to trust and rely on. So at the end of the year that our child was born. My partner had a car accident and sustained a traumatic brain injury. This accident changed everything we were doing. And any negative that was going on before was amplified. And then there were quite a few new issues. He had extensive amounts of therapies: Neuropsychologists, physical therapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy, cognitive therapy. This became part of our life for several years, both in a hospital, in an outpatient setting, and then even in our home. We had therapists coming through the home. So through this, we did couples counseling. We actually got referred to what was supposedly one of the top couples counselors in this whole health system. Why Couples Counseling Often Misses Husband Future Faking and Covert Abuse Mackenzie: I like cleared an entire day of work. I was no longer going to work on Wednesdays, because we were going to go to couples counseling. And it was a huge deal. I had to like find childcare and all this stuff. Our case completely perplexed them. And after a few months, he told me he was “too sick” to go to counseling. And I put too sick in quote marks because he was not too sick to go to the Apple store. Yes, after his accident, he never went back to work. Not only did he not financially contribute in any meaningful way. He began to drain our finances to an extreme amount using various Apps and games. I mean, like hundreds and thousands of dollars were going missing. It was insane. Was it something like gambling? I’ll never truly know everything. He even used cryptocurrency. Then a couple of years later, just before we split, we did couples therapy again. I was so ambivalent by that point. I remember the therapist repeating seems like you don’t know you could go either way. And I was so numbed out by that point because of the amount of discoveries I’d found. Just outrageous behavior, betrayals, and frightening stuff. I tried to talk about a lot of it in counseling. But, in the counseling sphere, I don’t think abuse was brought up, and I had several counselors. The Final Straw: When Husband Future Faking Escalates to Criminal or Dangerous Behavior Mackenzie: The most disturbing discovery I made was that he had conversations with teenagers on Snapchat, in texts. And I’m finding this out piecemeal, by having a computer left up. He was very, very shrewd and secretive, extremely secretive. I found he was sending pictures of our child, using our child as part of grooming someone else. I was outraged. And that was the point, enough things had happened. I decided I am not going to confront him about this. Anne: Ah, using the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop strategies. Mackenzie: Absolutely, so it took me a little over a year. I did some big career moves, I prepared in secret. I wanted to sustain myself and my child. We weren’t married, but in our state, there is this common law factor. Due to so much interaction with the medical system. He had encouraged me to begin to refer to him as my husband. It was calculated. The last couple’s counselor, the last time I talked with her, I called her and I was so apologetic. I’m like, I’m so sorry. I know I did not cancel with 24 hours notice, we’re not going to be able to have our couples counseling session today because I’m trying to see if there’s a tracker on my car. Anne: Yeah, that is crazy that you went to multiple therapists and none of them identified it as abuse. Mackenzie: I know, I could go on and on about post separation abuse and legal problems. I learned later, thanks to the IRS, about actual criminal activity. He was caught red handed through Snapchat and Instagram. Yeah, he was sentenced to decades in prison. Breaking Free from Husband Future Faking: Legal Protection and Safety Planning Mackenzie: I got a protective order when I left. I spent beyond my life savings on legal fees to protect myself and my child. Because I realized, this person was so destructive. I mean, I haven’t even mentioned there’s assault. There’s so many things, but this person was just hell bent on destruction and doing what they wanted to do. And I needed to protect myself and my child. That’s why I filed for divorce from someone I wasn’t married to, because I wanted a legal end to any connection with this person. Because they’re terrifying, like, absolutely terrifying. Like, when I left, he stalked me, actually showed up at my workplace looking for me. And he’s still a victim. I hadn’t heard from him in a long time, but a few months ago, he sent a letter to my dad’s house. He was pretty much an atheist when we were together, but now it looks like he’s found God. Anne: Let’s just add spiritual abuse to it. Mackenzie:Yeah, never in my wildest dreams would I expect someone who’s publicly advocating for others and putting themselves in the super public role. Would actually commit behind the scenes crimes with other people’s children. This goes way beyond just being a jerk. When you put it all together, and I spent years in a caregiving role for this person. I funded their life. Whatever money he was getting. He did not put in the family pot, but whatever I earned, he needed access to it. Anne: Wow, did the advocates who propped him up and supported him become aware that he was a criminal and in prison? Life After Husband Future Faking: Rebuilding Trust and Recognizing Manipulation Mackenzie: Yes, most of those people, to my knowledge, do not support him now. He borrowed quite a sum of money to bail himself out of jail. And that money didn’t go back to that person. I think it shows you the mind of someone like this, someone with an antisocial personality. The mind of someone who is rational, but with no conscience. There is no boundary, they will not limit themselves to any sort of moral behavior. Periodically, he’d tell me I was his moral compass. And I didn’t really understand what he meant by that. But I think I get it a little more now. He had no real moral direction. Anne: To use a good cause as a shield for your own bad behavior is really alarming. Mackenzie: It is, it makes me suspicious of people who are extremely vocal, especially men. It makes me wonder, because I’ve seen the underside of that. I trust a lot less than I did before. Anne: Umhmm, yeah, that makes sense. I appreciate you taking the time to share your story with us. Thank you so much. You’ve been through so much, and I’m happy to hear that you are safe. Mackenzie: Thank you so much for having me on here. I really appreciate it.

Transcribed - Published: 21 October 2025

Are you asking yourself, “Is my husband hiding money?” If you suspect he might be keeping secrets, including financial ones, it’s important to recognize the signs. From sneaky spending habits to secret accounts, there are common tactics some use to hide things from their partners. This quiz will help you uncover if he’s lying in general, giving you the insight you need to determine whether money is part of the equation. Here’s What To Do If You Wonder, Is My Husband Hiding Money? 1. Recognize The Signs Of Financial Deception Is your husband secretive about finances? Does he avoid discussing expenses or where he is? Is it hard for you to get clear answers about what he is doing? Do you notice unusual transactions or missing funds? Financial dishonesty in marriage is a form of domestic abuse, because the intent is to control information and steal a wife’s power and agency. His actions could even be fraudulent, posing harm to others and implicating you. 2. Do Your homework and keep good receords If you suspect your husband is hiding money or lying to you about finances or anything else, keep a journal of your suspicions and conversations. When it comes to finances, it’s important to carefully examine bank statements, credit card bills, and other financial documents in order to identify any inconsistencies. Comparing your husband’s behavior and your accounts can help you understand what’s really going on. 3. Don’t Talk To Your Husband About Your Suspicions Until… If you believe your husband is hiding money from you or someone else, it’s crucial not to discuss it. After all, if he is dishonest, he’s already aware of his actions, and raising the issue could backfire. It may alert him to your concerns and lead to more calculated attempts to deceive you and others. Proceed carefully to protect yourself. To see what’s going on without talking to him, enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. The Living Free Workshop will give you thought, communication, and boundary strategies to determine what’s going on. Without putting yourself at risk for his continued lies and manipulation. 4. Is My Husband Hiding Money? Understand That Lying About Money Is A Form Of Control It’s important to recognize that hiding money or lying about finances isn’t just about secrecy; rather, it’s about control. In fact, financial abuse is a serious form of domestic abuse, as it limits your independence and freedom. If your husband uses finances to manipulate or control you, know that you’re not at fault, and there are resources available to help you. We have daily, online Group Sessions where women can talk about their suspicions and learn what to do to protect themselves. Check out the Group Session schedule. We’d love to see you in a session TODAY. Transcript: Is My Husband Hiding Money? Anne: I have Victoria Ellen on today’s episode. A Hulu show called Scam Goddess highlighted her story in season one, episode six. The Royal Racket. Although Victoria looks like a successful career woman, she led a difficult life. Behind the scenes, she spent more than a decade relentlessly pursuing justice for her children in a battle that led to the Ohio Supreme Court and beyond. Her husband lied about everything, including hiding money and committing fraud. She started as a divorced single mother struggling to get by after escaping an abusive man. She and her children spent years in therapy to overcome the trauma they endured. After traveling that bumpy road, Victoria became an award winning business woman, a happily married wife and a proud mother to two thriving college students. She’s here to share some of her story. Welcome, Victoria. Victoria Ellen: Thank you, Anne. Thank you so much for having me. Anne: So you wrote your experience in your book, Painting in the Rain, A True Story of Trickery and Triumph. How courageous of you to put your story to paper. In fact, you have a Hulu episode about your story, Scam Goddess, season one, episode six. The Royal Racket is the episode name. Can you talk about why you wanted to share your story? Victoria Ellen: Yes, you know, I just wanted to help other people. I had struggled for years, felt alone. And I really didn’t know which way to turn. I hoped that if I shared my memoir, perhaps I could help others struggling through their journey to freedom. Meeting Her Ex-Husband Victoria Ellen: When I first met my ex-husband, I was very young. I was 19 years old, very impressionable and he was 20. So we were just young and in love. He was Mr. Charisma, liked by everyone, fun, outgoing and seemed to have the world by the tail. Both of us participated in church. My world was school, church and family all growing up. It didn’t change once I met him, and I would say now looking back, he had cult like behavior. He started his own cult after I divorced him, but you know, early on everything was happy go lucky. Really, he just swept me off my feet with the love bombing. And how wonderful he would treat me. And how God told him I would be his wife. Anne: When did you start to notice if something felt off? And how did you define it at the time, not knowing what you were dealing with? Did you wonder,” is my husband hiding money along with other things?” Victoria Ellen: Actually my mother started seeing some red flags. She was very concerned for me. I didn’t see any of the signs husband is controlling. The controlling behavior started early on, lots of secrets. But I had never been in a serious relationship like this. And so, I wasn’t thinking, Oh my, these are big red flags. I was just thinking like, oh, this is new. And there was a lot of emotion tied around it. Because I’m white, I’m a Caucasian woman. And he is an African American man. I was raised in a rural area in Ohio in the 90s. And even then, you didn’t see a lot of biracial interracial dating. So, many people had opinions about that. Red Flags & Controlling Behavior Escalates Victoria Ellen: And I wasn’t sure if people were really genuinely concerned about me, if my red flags were valid, or if it was all rubbish. Because he was black, I was white, and the rest is left out there for people to make their own story about. But you know, I was completely under the spell. I drank the poison and in full blown deception land. Is my husband hiding money? yes, and other things. And didn’t listen to anyone, unfortunately. I ended up pregnant while we were dating, and I pulled away from him during my second trimester. Because the first trimester seemed like a whirlwind, and I really couldn’t think. I had everyone telling me what I should do with my life. I had no idea what I should do with my life. And so I tried to take a moment to step away and get clear. I started thinking like, this isn’t normal. This isn’t right. There are many things here that are concerning to me. But he started slowly working his way back. He sent gifts and cards, how much he wanted to see the ultrasounds, and check on the baby. It looked like oh, I just want to take care of you and the baby. And I don’t want you to worry about anything. I don’t want you to have to work or do anything outside the home. I just want you to stay with our child. And it all seemed, like, oh, this is the wholesome, American family dream. Like we’re going to get married, have a family, and live happily ever after. So, I let him back in, in the last trimester, and he quickly whisked me off to get married. Is My Husband Hiding Money? Marriage & Extreme Control Victoria Ellen: Within days of being married, I realized I had made the wrong decision. He was extremely controlling. He controlled every area of my life. I was not allowed to speak on the phone with my family, without supervision from him. I wasn’t allowed to leave the home. My keys were often hidden. I couldn’t hop in the car and go somewhere. My circle was very small. He controlled every area of my life down to what I ate. Whether I could open the drapes on the windows and just let some sunshine in. Really disgusting, despicable behavior. My last ditch effort was to go to our pastor and ask her to meet with us, because I was planning on an escape. I just didn’t know how to do it and I thought maybe she could help us. We were in financial shambles, and the church helped us dig our way out. I still wasn’t thinking, “is my husband hiding money?” It was gone. They helped with a month or two of back rent, electricity and water, so we could have everything turned back on. However, he did not like the fact that I, you know, ousted him. Anne: Oh, I am so sorry. It’s so hard to go for help, and it makes things worse, you know? For instance, everyone will tell a victim that intensive couple therapy will help, or clergy can help him see the light, so to speak. And even if he does change his behavior, she’ll later discover it was just more lies.The Living Free workshop talks about what to do to get help. Victoria Ellen: Absolutely. Anne: And why it’s so important to follow those strategies to keep yourself safe. Challenges With The Justice System Anne: Did you discover any other abusive behavior? Victoria Ellen: Yeah. So exploitative content was definitely an issue in our marriage. He was a bodybuilder. And he ended up doing some air quotes, “modeling” with soft pornography. And of course, when I called him out on it, I was “crazy and insecure.” And with the abuse, of course, mental, emotional, and physical abuse, check all the boxes. Including, is my husband hiding money? As well, my son started displaying signs of sexual abuse as a 2-year-old, and I was pregnant with our second child. And I’m sad to say that the justice system needs huge, massive reform. I was involved in a custody battle initially for three and a half years. As a single mother, with those two children fighting relentlessly to protect them because they were being abused. And the judge was clearly swayed in his favor. She seemed to have a personal affection for him, which was odd in our case, and I was not able to get her moved off of it. He was gone for about 10 years after that initial 3. 5 years in litigation with the custody and the courts. When he came back, he wanted to reestablish parenting time. This started the next seven years of litigation. So we were involved in three different court cases. One, I represented myself as my own attorney in domestic relations court. A second case where my current husband had filed for adoption of the children. My husband won at the local level. My ex-husband appealed it. Custody Battle & Court Struggles Victoria Ellen: It went to the 12th district court of appeals. My husband won the right to adopt again at the 12th district court of appeals. My ex-husband appealed it again. Now in the Supreme Court of Ohio, they take 7 percent of the cases, okay? So 93 percent of the time your case will not get taken. We thought those odds were pretty darn good. But my story is so crazy. They ended up taking the case and ended up ruling again in favor of my husband to adopt the children. They actually wrote new case law in the State of Ohio, specifically regarding this case. The third case we had was a two week federal trial. I worked with the Secret Service and U.S. District attorneys to bring justice to my ex-husband. So we had three court cases going for seven years. It was arduous, to say the least. I was sentenced to jail because my children refused to visit with their father, who was their abuser. I had children’s services investigations and police reports. Detectives investigated and interviewed the children, and we still could not get the justice system to do what was right. This sheds a little light on why I am so adamant about bringing light to what happens in the court system and why we need reform. I mean, 10 years in litigation, it took a toll on all of us. I think a lot of people operate out of fear. Because the courts tell them, you’re going to go to jail, and we’re going to take the kids away from you. So it does cause you to think you have to send your children to do these visits or else. The Need For Justices To Be Educated Victoria Ellen: And I was at a point where my children’s well-being was paramount. I would be one of those people who left the country, shaved my head, took on a new alias and started a new life. Because I refused to send my children back into the lion’s den with their perpetrators. My son had six abuse perpetrators by the time he was six years old. Anne: Oh, I’m so sorry. Victoria Ellen: Once they articulated who their perpetrators were, they were old enough to tell investigators who it was and explain in detail what had been happening to them. The system is broken. I knew it was broken, and that’s why we were tied up for so long, because I refused to give up. My ex-husband relentlessly used the court system to drive me through the mud. Financially drain me, emotionally drain me to force me to sit in a courtroom and look at him when I didn’t want anything to do with him. It was sick. And we all know this now. I believe the court system needs to do something drastic. I don’t know what type of revolution we need. But these judges and magistrates need more education on narcissism, coercive control, manipulation and the effects of it. Not only on the ex, the person raising these children, but also on the children, they’re going to grow up someday. I hope they could be successful adults and contribute positively to society. But when they’re relentlessly dragged through the mud, year after year, it’s hard to raise healthy, happy adults. Abuse By The Justice System Anne: Yeah that’s the thing about divorcing a narcissist they then can like abuse by the justice system. They can use the justice system to abuse you. Because you shouldn’t even have to be there. You’re just trying to protect your kids. The fact that you’re dragged in and have to pay money to defend against nothing. Because you didn’t do anything is crazy. It’s so expensive and time consuming. Having been through it myself, it is maddening that the courts can upend people’s lives in this way. Just because someone is not in prison does not mean they’re an appropriate parent. Victoria Ellen: Correct, absolutely, it seems like nothing matters. It doesn’t matter if you abuse your child, if you don’t pay child support, if you’re mentally abusive, physically abusive, check all the boxes. It doesn’t matter. The magistrate said to me, even bad parents get to see their kids. I mean, what an indictment on the judicial system. Anne: Exactly, if it were a stranger, that stranger may be put in jail. But at the very least, no one would want that child to be in proximity to that stranger. At this point, did you also start questioning, “is my husband hiding money?” Victoria Ellen:My husband and I were just day and night doing recon online. Trying to find any lead that we could regarding the life of my ex husband and what he might be up to. I knew he had picked up three felonies for fraud in previous years. But we couldn’t find anything on him, not where he was working. He drove cars not registered to him. Now, I’m thinking, is my husband hiding money? Evidence showed he was. Is My ex-Husband Hiding something? Finding Aliases & Gathering Evidence Victoria Ellen: He was driving luxurious cars, flashing a lot of expensive jewelry, things that would lead you to believe he was financially sound or successful in some people’s minds. So we just started trying to figure it out. We kept coming up empty. And one day I reached out to one of the victims in his first court case on fraud, where he has three felonies. And they told me that my ex husband used aliases. That he was not only a pastor now, but also posing as a prince of Ghana, Africa. Anne: Wow. Victoria Ellen: So I used all these aliases in Google. It was like a magic trick. His face started popping up everywhere. I started finding all these shell companies that he was operating. These businesses were under this magic key. And then I started gathering as much evidence as possible. Finally, I knocked on enough doors and went to enough people. I put together a file and filed a motion for a new child support order. Is my husband hiding money? I found that was true. I was the only person with financial access, because I had two children with him previously. So this was another way for us to keep pressure on him. We had been in litigation at this point, like 5, 6 years. With all this nonsense, we were running out of money. It was outrageous. So I’d been in court long enough that I could fumble my way through hold my own. My husband convinced me to be my own attorney. And so I went to court and had an exhibit book. I worked through that exhibit book for an hour and 40 minutes. I had my ex-husband on cross examination. Is My Husband Hiding Money? Courtroom Strategies Victoria Ellen: If you know anything about someone with narcissistic personality disorder, they love to talk about themselves. So I have a huge exhibit book full of pictures and documents of my ex-husband. He just kept flipping through it and was so excited to talk about all this and go through the exhibit books. He truly believed this plan and strategy he’d hatched, that this life he lived for seven years, was foolproof. Like, “nobody’s going to catch me.” I’m above the law. I’ll never be held accountable for anything. Everybody believes I’m a prince, prophet, pastor, and CEO, COO. This thing is like Fort Knox, it’s locked up tight. Like no one can catch me. And that conceited, arrogant attitude of I’m above everyone, and everything, is the thing that actually helped us win that case. Because he thought he couldn’t be exposed. And he was exposing himself for an hour and 40 minutes. Is my husband hiding money? He was. I literally had documentation of these businesses that he started in Ohio, and he signed them Prince Daryl Adepo. So he thought I’ll just use that. It says I’m a prince, a descendant of royalty in Africa. So I can just continue operating like this. But from the prior crime he had committed, he wasn’t even allowed to have a Series 6 or a Series 7, it’s a license. Financial advisors and investment brokers, would have those types of licensures, and he was posing as an investment broker. You can’t even get that if you are a convicted felon. I mean, he’s a pastor of a church now, which is just laughable. He’s Indicted On Federal Charges Victoria Ellen: He claims to be a prophet, and he claims he’s the CEO and COO. And he’s a prince. So he’s got all this going on, and people are giving him money. So he’s getting the money from the church. And then he’s getting the money from the people that think that they’re investing in his gold mine in Africa that doesn’t even exist. They’re giving him their 401k. They’re selling their house or they’re taking out equity lines of credit against their house to give him money. Because he’s promising a 30 percent return. That’s where the Ponzi scheme comes in. He’s got all this money, and that’s where all the flashy cars, the Rolexes, the diamond rings, and all the things come from. It’s like, oh, you’re stealing, you’re a thief and an imposter. That makes sense. Okay, now I get it, you didn’t earn any of this. So I ordered the transcripts, and I took the file I had been working on for five years, and I hand delivered them to the feds. And, they indicted him nine months later on 16 federal charges. Fraud, conspiracy, mail fraud, wire fraud, everything to do with fraud you could possibly imagine. Is my husband hiding money? Yes, and other lies. So it was our mission to expose him. He’s not safe. The lifestyle he lived was absurd. And the fact that he even pretended he wanted time with these children was laughable, honestly, Because he didn’t want anything to do with the children. He wanted to get to me. The children would be there for visits, and he wouldn’t spend time with them. Because they wouldn’t leave with him. The Trial Victoria Ellen: Any other father with children sitting in front of them for a visit would sit at the table and have a conversation with their children. He did not do that. If the children were going to get in the car and leave with him, he didn’t want anything to do with them. He would say, “I’ll see your mom in court.” So it’s like, this doesn’t have anything to do about reestablishing a relationship with your children. It has to do with control and manipulation. Anne: Wow, that’s amazing that you got that evidence on, your husband, who was hiding money and a lot more and turned it into the feds. Victoria Ellen: So this is incredible. We were in a trial for two weeks, which is unheard of, because generally defendants know they are caught. They know they don’t have a case, and it’s pretty much closed book. It’s like you’re guilty, plead guilty, and here’s your sentence, you’re done. So the fact that this case even went to a trial is unheard of. This was on the tail end of COVID. There were 17 victims and witnesses through those two weeks. The jury found him guilty of 10 of the 16 charges. The U.S. district attorneys dropped three charges. So he was guilty of 10 charges. And I was able to speak at the sentencing hearing. The U.S. district attorneys asked me if I would be willing to say something, and there was also another victim that spoke that day. After that, the judge said he was considering an upward departure, and the rules are a little different in the federal court system. So there are specific time frames assigned to certain crimes. Is My Ex-Husband Hiding Money? Sentencing Victoria Ellen: So, if you commit fraud, you’re supposed to get X amount of time. If you have priors, there’s this formula they use. Basically to generate how long they think you should go to prison. Well, the U.S. district attorneys were requesting 10 to 14 years for the crimes committed. Of course, the defendant’s attorney claimed he shouldn’t get any time. Because how could he pay back all his victims, these hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars. Is my husband hiding money? Yes, lots of it. Anne: Oh, if he was in jail. How could he defraud other people to pay for the other people he defrauded? Victoria Ellen: Yeah, exactly. He stole $250, 000 from one man during the first case. And he never paid him back, and he continued to steal from people. And never did a day in jail for that either. So you know, this isn’t going to happen. So the judge says, I’m looking at an upward departure. Which means that the defendant should get 10 to 14 years. I’m considering going above that, because the crimes are so heinous and he is so despicable. You should have seen the secret service and federal marshals that lined up in the gallery that day to watch the circus take place. Him on the stand doubling down the fact that he was a prince, that he had a gold mine in Africa. And he really was going to pay back all his friends. They’re not victims, they’re his friends. It was wild. The judge literally threw the book at him and sentenced him to 20 years in federal prison. Anne: Wow, oh, I bet you felt so relieved. Victoria Ellen: It was surreal, I couldn’t believe it. Differences Between Court Systems Victoria Ellen: For the 20 years we had fought him, he got 20 years in federal prison. And I just felt like it was a year for every year that we had been to hell and back with him. And exposed him, is my husband hiding money? Definitely. Anne: Yeah, can you talk about the difference in your experience with the criminal court and the civil court? Women can get protective orders. Sometimes it’s difficult to get a protective order, but it’s not as hard, I would say, to get a protective order as it is to protect your children from the abuser. Police sometimes follow up on protective order violations or fraud, but in the civil court with custody. There is nothing, it feels like, that anybody can do to protect children from abuse. So, can you talk about the difference between those two types of courts? Victoria Ellen: Domestic relations court fails miserably when it comes to protecting children. And they continued to fail us year after year until my children were emancipated. They never did come through, ever. Not one time. For either child. It’s just very sad. I haven’t been involved with criminal courts at a local level. I’ve only been involved with the feds. They were serious about the law, and they weren’t listening to the lies, and were very black and white. And domestic relations courts are trying to take into account all these factors. And I would just encourage anybody in the court system to document everything. I didn’t have phone conversations with him. Everything was via text message because text messages are admissible for court evidence. So are emails, and also recordings or videos. Is He Hiding Money? Fighting for the truth to be told Victoria Ellen: If you can document these things, people will start reading between the lines and see that this person isn’t who they are portraying themselves to be. Because they are creating their own reality. They’re just telling the story. I mean, my ex-husband literally created this life that was not real, did not exist, and doubled down on it. And all the lies. Is my husband hiding money? Yes. And now he’s spending 20 years in federal prison. Because he tried to convince everybody that the lie was the truth. Unfortunately, everybody doesn’t have the same opportunity that I had at the federal level. Anne: They’re just dealing with local courts, and it can be a daunting task to continuously go to court over and over again and not have your voice heard. Yeah, it’s very discouraging. Also, I talk to many victims who’ve documented everything. They have proof, and that hasn’t swayed the courts either. I had 40 pages of documentation, and it didn’t do anything. So strategy is so important, especially if you’re wondering “is my husband hiding money?” That’s why I put the strategies in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Again, you can get more information by clicking this link. It will teach you how to do it step by step, so that you have the documentation, but also how to use it strategically. For example, I learned in my case that those 40 pages, the guardian ad litem actually used it as proof that I tried to hurt my ex. Because what other loving co-parent would document 40 pages of child abuse against their co-parent? Victoria-Ellen: Oh my oh, that’s what I’m talking about. It’s maddening, it’s maddening. It’s enough to send you over the edge. I’m not kidding, it’s crazy. Advocating for Justice Reform Together Anne: I’ve had a lot of times, like yelling and screaming in my own house by myself, not in court, jumping up and down. So, how can this be happening? None of this is even sensical in any way shape or form. And it’s so frustrating. Your story can help bring this to light. All women listening to this podcast are interested in reforms in the justice system to ensure that we can protect children from abuse. I’m so glad you’re safe now. You are a warrior. You’re amazing. Victoria Ellen: Thank you, thank you. Well, it takes one to know one, and you know, we just have to bind together. We can’t stand by and watch evil prevail. Anne: That’s what it is, like legit evil. They know what they’re doing and doing it on purpose. In fact, they know they’re hurting people and don’t care. Victoria Ellen: They don’t care, no. Well, when you lack empathy and compassion, what else is there? Just to wreck people’s lives? What you’re doing is making a huge difference, Anne. I appreciate you standing in the gap and helping educate others. Because I didn’t have anything like this when I left 25 years ago. Thank you for fighting the good fight. Anne: Thank you so much for sharing your story. Victoria Ellen: Thank you so much for having me.

Transcribed - Published: 7 October 2025

Here are some of the most common scriptures on betrayal. Then I’ll dive into an analysis of betrayal—specifically in the context of a husband betraying his wife, using examples from the scriptures of Judas. Here’s what you need to know If you’ve been betrayed and are turning to scripture for guidance. scriptures about Betrayal and Broken Trust Psalm 41:9 (ESV) Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me. Psalm 55:12–14 (ESV) For it is not an enemy who taunts me—then I could bear it; it is not an adversary who deals insolently with me—then I could hide from him. But it is you, a man, my equal, my companion, my familiar friend. We used to take sweet counsel together; within God’s house we walked in the throng. Jeremiah 12:6 (ESV) For even your brothers and the house of your father, even they have dealt treacherously with you; they are in full cry after you; do not believe them, though they speak friendly words to you. Luke 22:48 (ESV) But Jesus said to him, “Judas, would you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?” bible Verses When you Need Strength and Protection after Betrayal Ephesians 6:10–11 (ESV) Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. Psalm 23:1–4 (ESV) The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want… Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. What About Justice and Truth? What Does bible SAY about betrayal Psalm 101:7–8 (ESV) No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes. Morning by morning I will destroy all the wicked in the land. BIBLE VERSEs About Healing and Forgiveness AFTER BETRAYAL Matthew 6:14–15 (ESV) For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. James 1:2–5 (ESV) Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness… If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach. Mark 11:25 (ESV) And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. Finding Hope and Identity From SCripture In the Midst betrayal Philippians 4:13 (ESV) I can do all things through him who strengthens me. John 14:6 (ESV) Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Transcript: Scriptures on Betrayal: How To Move Forward After Infidelity Anne: On today’s episode, we’re gonna go over Bible quotes on betrayal. So these are scriptures on betrayal, most of them scriptures about Judas that will teach us what the Bible says about betrayal, what Christ says about betrayal. One of my favorite parts of this interview was when we talked about what happened at the Last Supper, especially in the context of betrayal in marriage. Here’s a preview: Let’s just imagine all the people involved with this. They’re all sitting around the table, and you’re like, he’s gonna betray me. In that moment, what did they tell us? They told us to pray for him. They told us to go to intensive couple therapy. So in that moment where Judas takes the bread, Christ isn’t like, hold on. Can somebody call a couple therapist. He didn’t say like, “Wait, can you guys, hold on, I’m gonna pray so hard. It’s going to fix Judas and I will come out and he is not gonna betray me anymore.” That does not happen. Instead, what does Christ say in that moment? But before we get to that part, I need to set the stage. Scriptures on Betrayal: When You Suspect He is Unfaithful Anne: And I’ve invited a member of our community on today’s episode, we’re gonna call her Jesse. Welcome Jesse. Jesse: Hi, thanks for having me. Anne: Before we go on, BTR is interfaith and inter-paradigm. Hopefully, what we talk about today will apply to you. Everyone is welcome here. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session our team understands betrayal, because it happened to them. Jesse and I happen to be Christian, so we’re gonna share from our own experience. We’re from different denominations, so we’ve had different thoughts about it over the years. I invited her specifically to talk about how Jesus dealt with betrayal. Because one morning I was studying bible verses on betrayal and I realized, Jesus was betrayed, by an “intimate partner.” Someone on his side, except Christ knew Judas’ character was not the best. Also the juxtaposition between how Christ dealt with Judas, and how he dealt with the Pharisees and the Sadducees, his known enemies. Christ obviously had righteous disdain for some people. I mean, I’m sure he loved them in a cosmic way, but he really didn’t like them. He wanted people to know that he didn’t like them. He was very direct and called them vipers. And he threw over the money changers in the temple. He called them thieves. He knew they were exploitative. Jesus & Judas: When He’s In Your Inner Circle, But Not Actually Close Jesse: Yes, I was thinking about what the bible quotes about betrayal, and about Judas and his relationship with Jesus. I read an article that mentioned when the disciples are listed in scripture, they’re typically listed in a consistent order, with Peter, James, John and Matthew almost always listed first. Saying that was an indication of the closeness of the relationship. Judas is rarely listed in that way. He was part of the 12, but he wasn’t part of Jesus’ close knit circle. Anne: But I guess there were lots of people who wanted to be an apostle. Christ didn’t have to pick Judas as an apostle. He’s definitely closer to Jesus than the average person. There are probably lots of people who were like, “Hey, I wanna ride on Christ’s coattails,” and they weren’t chosen as apostles. In the context of betrayed women. They’re not necessarily close to their husbands. He lives with them. He goes on family trips, they go to church together, but are they actually close? This is something I feel like women instinctively know is a problem. They know they’re not close, and when they try to repair or remedy it, he just says they are. Scriptures on Betrayal: Verses In The Bible That Show What To Do After Infidelity Jesse: Right, in my case, I always felt part of my husband’s life. I definitely did the labor of caring for the children, caring for the household, and supporting him in his career. We did not have a life together as an intimate couple. We were roommates. Sometimes we were friends. We did travel a lot and did a lot of fun things together. But we did not have a partnership. I was a part of his life. Anne: In my study of scriptures on betrayal, I wondered if it was like that with Judas. I wonder if Judas thought Christ was part of his life, not the other way around. Like he wanted to be close to Jesus for his own benefit, but not for the gospel. ‘Cause he’s part of a club. I’m like, I’d love to go to a dinner with 12 people where somebody made me food. You know, I’m thinking about the last supper. Yeah, I wanna be part of that club. I would say that before I realized my ex was lying to me, we weren’t close. Any time I tried to get close, he would be like, “Of course everything’s fine.” Jesse: Absolutely, it was almost like we were living in two different realities. And I kept trying to pull him into my reality, which was family and building this life together with mutual interests for the benefit of one another. And he was in a different reality. Where pretty much everyone and everything centered around his life and what he wanted to accomplish. We were all supporting actors in his reality. Anne: Well, and, your husband won’t stop lying to you, so anytime you say, “Hey. Are we a family?” He’s like, “Yeah, we’re a family. It’s all good.” Prophetic Scriptures on Betrayal: Warnings about Cause & Effect Anne: While studying the scriptures on Judas, I began to imagine he might have experienced something similar. Where Christ is like, “Hey, you’re gonna betray me.” And Judas is like, “No, I’m not. Everything’s fine, of course we’re unified.” Speaking of that, let’s talk about the prophecies in the context of betrayal. So we’ve got in the Old Testament in Zechariah, people prophesied that Christ will be betrayed. Now anyone could have betrayed him. He was probably betrayed by more than just Judas. I believe these, I’m gonna say “prophecies”, do I believe in prophecy? Yes. And didn’t we all do these same prophecies? We’re thinking, if he keeps doing this. Then this will happen. Rather than a prophecy, can we think about it as more of a cause and effect? It’s pretty clear. If you continue to sext your coworker, you are likely to actually have sex with her eventually. I mean, is that a prophecy or is that this leads to this? As wives beholding our husband’s character. We make these types of, I’m gonna say “prophecies.” But do we make them because it’s set in stone, or are we saying this because we desperately want to avoid it? It’s the second answer, he was betraying him, which is how we knew he would betray him. If you lie, then you’re going to have an affair, but you’re already lying about your affair. This is what the bible says about cheating husbands. And I’m wondering if that was the case with Christ and Judas, where he’s like, “If you keep doing this, you’re gonna betray me.” But the thing he’s doing is already betraying you. How Jesus Dealt With Betrayal: Your Husband is Worth Warning Jesse: Right, Christ is definitely giving Judas the opportunity to turn from his course of action. Christ knew, and he says it to him in such a way that Judas has an opportunity to change. And that’s what I certainly did with my husband. I would let him know about signs I saw that were gonna be damaging to our marriage. I gave him the opportunity to see what I saw, and he rejected it. Anne: What these scriptures on betrayal show us is that this man who apparently has something about him that makes Jesus want him as a disciple, he’s worth warning. There are two ways to go about this. There’s the 12 step way, stay on your side of the street. And then there’s the “Christian” way, pray for him, make sure he is not too stressed out, submit to him, and all that. If you’re being betrayed, it’s your fault in some way or another. I’m like, no, it’s not because Christ was the most perfect person. But we’re not so bad. Like, the things that we do are totally normal and good. Anyone would do them. Just like we’d say, “If you go on this business trip, something bad’s gonna happen.” If Christ was perfect, giving Judas little indicators did not stop Judas from doing it. Why would any pastor, any therapist, or anybody out there be like, “Oh, the reason why he had this emotional affair was because you guys aren’t close emotionally.” Like, no, it is actually the opposite. We weren’t close emotionally, because he wasn’t coming to you with his emotions. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Scriptures on Betrayal: It’s Not Your Fault, Here’s Why Anne: So from Matthew 26, we learned that this was Judas idea. In Matthew 26 :14, it says, “Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,” so not the other way around. It’s not like the chief priests approached Judas. Judas approached them. In 15, “And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him to you?” And at that point they’re like, 30 pieces of silver. And then in 16 it says, “And from that time he [as in Judas] sought opportunity to betray him.” So it was intentional. He knew he was doing it. You know what these passages from the Bible on betrayal don’t say. They don’t say it was because Jesus always placed him last or prioritized Peter, James, and John before him. Nowhere does it imply that Judas betrayed Jesus due to a lack of attention. Instead, the scriptures make it clear—Judas made his choice. Scriptures on Betrayal: When Your Husband Chooses to Betray You Anne: As far as prophecy goes, Christ says in verse 24, “The Son of man goeth as it is written of him:” So yeah, it’s been predicted I’m going to be captured and killed, but then Christ says, “but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.” Meaning, yes, I’m going to be captured and killed. That is true, but you don’t have to do it. Judas didn’t have to do it. Somebody else would’ve done it. There were many people who hated Jesus at this time. This like, well, “life is full of trials.” Sure, but does your husband have to be the one that causes all your trials? Does your husband have to be the one that makes things difficult? No, he doesn’t. He could make different choices. I don’t have this so much in my faith, but I hear from others that there’s this like sense that the devil made you do it, so it’s like the devil’s fault when it’s the opposite. The devil didn’t enter into Judas until after he’d made the deal, until after he’d taken action. So does the devil become involved if you’re Christian? I believe yes, from my study of the Bible verses on betrayal. Jesse: Yes. Scriptures on Betrayal: The Devil Didn’t Make Him Do It Anne: But only after you make the choice. Satan doesn’t make you do anything. Jesse: In my faith tradition. In recent years, more of a charismatic tradition. I wouldn’t say this is a primary belief in some circles, but there is the tendency to believe that there’s demonic activity to a significant level involved when people engage in destructive activity. Like we know, the devil steals, kills, and destroys. So anything that fits in that type of behavior gets labeled as demonic. It’s my opinion, at this point, that gets overused as an excuse: the devil made me do it. This person habitually cheats on their spouse or engages in destructive behaviors. So there’s a tendency to label that person as having a demon that’s “making them do this.” I don’t believe that today. You’re making those choices of your own free will. Anne: Yeah, in John 6:70-71, one of the Bible quotes on betrayal, Christ says Judas is a devil. Jesse: Wow, interesting. Anne: If someone is wicked or they are evil, who is the devil? The person doing it. Jesse: Yeah. Anne: So rather than the devil made me do it. I am doing the bad thing. Like I am wicked. I am the evil one. Jesse: I’m doing this, yes. Anne: Because if he wasn’t doing that bad thing, would the devil be involved? No, and who is the devil in that scenario? Not that he’s the devil with a capital D, but Christ himself calls people wicked, evil. He says about Judas, “one of you is a devil?” Not one of you is controlled by the devil or is possessed by the devil. One of you is. Jesse: Is, it’s pretty blunt. Is it Me? Lessons from The Scriptures on Betrayal For Marriages Anne: These men we’re married to, we can tell something isn’t right. We might not know what it is, because they’re lying to us, they’re manipulating us. Or maybe we know what it is. But even when we try to talk to them about it, we can’t figure out what’s going on. Because they lie. Christ is like, “Hey, one of you will betray me.” And Judas said, “Master, is it I?” He knows he’s already betrayed him. He knows he’s already made a deal with the head of the religion at the time. Christ was a rebel. He was going against the head of all of the religious authorities at the time. So, Judas is saying, “Is it me?” So you take your concerns to your husband and say, “I’m really concerned. Are you betraying me?” “Me, me? Am I betraying you?” When he is betraying you. So, you’re not gonna get a straight answer. Christ was perfect, and Judas lied to him. So, if any pastor or therapist tells you he’s lying to you because he doesn’t feel safe enough to tell you the truth, you can just be like, that’s just not true. Judas lies to Jesus’s face and acts like he doesn’t know if he’s gonna betray Jesus or not. When he already has betrayed him, and he’s planning on betraying him still, and the plan is in the works. Now, Jesus knows this. Some of us are aware of our husband’s lies. So let’s talk about that in the context of the scriptures on betrayal and our Savior, Jesus Christ. Because he knew what Judas’ character was. And maybe he’s still hoping Judas will make different choices. Scriptures on Betrayal: Bible Verses About How To Face It Anne: There are so many women who listen to the podcast, and they realize their husband is emotionally abusive. He’s psychologically abusive, he’s been lying to them. And I did it too. We try to get him help, and people blame us. “Why did you do that?” In the scriptures of Judas’ betrayal, Christ provides a profound example. He knew Judas was a betrayer—this is evident in John 6:70-71, long before the Last Supper. Yet, he chose not to dismiss him. The reason for this remains a mystery. I’ve heard that in some faith traditions, they attribute not necessarily good intentions to Judas, but maybe an explanation for why he did it. That gives him the benefit of the doubt. Which is heartbreaking, that someone would try to give Judas the benefit of the doubt, but then it doesn’t surprise me. Because they’re still doing it in the context of our husbands. They’re giving our husbands the benefit of the doubt, despite the awful choices he’s made. All of us have a devil in our house essentially. Someone who is making bad choices and betraying us, lying to us all the time, and undermining us. And somehow everybody wants to give him the benefit of the doubt. The therapist wants to give him the benefit of the doubt. The clergy wants to give him the benefit of the doubt, our neighbors. So I’m like, Oh, it happened with Judas too. They’re giving Judas the benefit of the doubt. That is so crazy to me. Judas’ Good Intentions? Jesse: Many of Jesus’ followers believed that when the Messiah came, He was going to overthrow the Roman Empire. So it’s possible that Judas led the authorities to Jesus to force Him into a position where he would rise up and take his rightful place as the Messiah and overthrow the Romans. Obviously, he was greedy and he was selling Jesus out, but there was also that thought process that he might have been operating in sort of a nationalist type of way. Trying to force Jesus to do what he thought He came to do. Anne: There’s so much to learn about Judas’ character in these Bible verses on betrayal, on so many levels. If they say he had “good intentions,” because he was trying to force Jesus to do something. No, because the control aspect is not good intentions. If he loved Jesus, the first commandment is to love God. The second commandment is to love your neighbor. If you love this person and care about them, are you really gonna put ’em in a position where you’re forcing them to choose between death and rising up and starting a big old war? That’s extreme. The concept that somehow, someone was good because they’re willing to sell someone out, make them face death, and force them into this extremely awkward position for political gain, would we say? Was it politics back then? Who was in charge? Were the Romans in charge? Were the Jews in charge? You’re putting the people you love in danger. If Christ came to love and serve, and bring people together and have compassion for people, that’s like the opposite of what Christ wanted. and you’re trying to force Christ into a box. It doesn’t make sense. The Scriptures on Betrayal: When Religious Leaders Criticize Women for Doing the Right Thing Jesse: Regardless, Judas benefited from being in Jesus’ circle. Whether his motivation was greed or whether it was political. Christ is growing in popularity because people are realizing who he is. Judas was benefiting from that. Anne: Yeah, maybe the reason Christ said you’re a devil is because he knew Judas was exploitative. John 12, showcases Judas. Judas’ exploitative character, where Mary anoints Jesus with expensive perfume, and he criticizes Mary. She’s not doing anything wrong. That all of us have experienced, we’re doing something good. We’re trying to protect our family, and we’re criticized no matter what we do. And then he lies and says he cares about poor people, he doesn’t. Jesse: She understood who Christ was. She was anointing him. So, that gives us an insight into Judas’ character and his understanding of Christ. ‘Cause he was criticizing her for doing what she did. Anne: I mean, here’s an apostle criticizing a woman for doing the right thing. Jesse: Yes. Anne: It’s a Biblical fact, in the scriptures on betrayal. We can say this is Biblical, that men in religious positions criticize women when they’re doing the right thing. Here’s a prime example of that, and Jesus was not a fan. In that instance, Christ was there to call Judas out. Jesse: Yes. Anne: But when we’re in our pastor’s office or our bishop’s office, and we’re with our husband. And he’s criticizing us for not praying enough, or asking too many questions. That was what I got all the time. I ask too many questions. Jesse: Right. Scripture calls Judas a Thief Anne: Jesus isn’t there in that moment to say, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. Nope, that’s not what’s happening.” And so it’s hard to tell. Because they’re your religious leader. Hopefully, by showing examples in scripture of how Jesus spoke about betrayal, we can help women have Jesus in their heads. Jesse: Yes. Anne: Say, you’re not doing anything wrong. Jesse: Right. Anne: You’re okay. He’s the one doing the wrong thing. In John 12:6, we know Judas wasn’t doing this because he cared about the poor. Because it says, “not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief.” They use the word thief. The label of thief indicates someone who’s exploitative. They want something without earning it. They wanna steal it or take it from someone who has done the work. Like, you’ve done all the work to keep your family together. You’ve done all the work to have a good marriage. You’ve done all the work to ensure your kids are okay, and then he is a thief in that he just wants the fruits of all that without having to do any of it. Jesse: Right. Anne: So this word thief in these Bible verses on betrayal indicates that exploitative nature. The Scriptures of Judas: Jusitfying Exploitation Jesse: That’s right. If Judas justified what he was doing for political gain. Let’s say, for the “greater good” of all. My ex-husband could justify everything he was doing. I would ask him about planning for the future, and he would not wanna have a discussion about it. But then in the therapist’s office, he would talk about how he was planning for our future. So he had this ability to rationalize that he was doing those things when he wasn’t. Anne: So many women say I think he ended up believing his lies. And I think the jury’s still out on that one. It might’ve been he pretended to believe to get what he wanted. I think they know they’re lying. And the reason why I say that is because when I lie, I know. Jesse: Yes, now I believe he knew what he was doing. And he still knows what he’s doing. Because he’s capable of telling the truth when he wants to. He was skilled at giving bits and pieces of truth to me. Anne: As a tactic. Jesse: Where he could “honestly” say to me that he was telling me the truth. He just wasn’t telling me the whole truth. Anne: So he’s using truth to lie and get what he wants. In Judas’ case and the verses on betrayal, in Matthew 26, he actually makes a choice. He’s like, “Hey, you pay me. I’ll give Jesus up.” Now, this part to me does not make sense. The people who wanted to kill Jesus for sure knew who he was. Judas capitalized on his betrayal Anne: We know this was the case because Christ himself says in one of the verses on betrayal, Matthew 26:55, “Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye lay no hold on me.” These guys manufacture all this when you could have just come and taken me anytime. I was always out and about. Judas was trying to capitalize on his relationship with Christ for his own gain. And so are these husbands who don’t love their wives, who cheat on them and lie, but want the benefits of having a wife. They want someone to cook, clean and plan the trips. He could have been honest about it and said, “Hey, I don’t love you. I’d rather have sex with someone else”, or “I’d rather use pornography and masturbate than have sex with you.” But then they’d give up all the benefits she gives him. They’re not willing to be honest, because they’d have to give up those benefits they have not earned. So here again, he says the word “thief,” like you’re a thief, because you could’ve just openly come and captured me while I was out and about. It also shows he deliberately did it.They could have found him anywhere. That somebody needed to arrange where he would get caught is ridiculous. Also, Christ knew he was going to take upon him the sins of the world, be crucified. This was all going to happen, whether Judas was involved or not. I just really feel like Judas was like, “How can I benefit from this?” ‘Cause it’s going down anyway. It also shows he did it deliberately. The Scriptures of Judas: He Did It Deliberately (affairs are hard work) Anne: Let’s talk about this for a minute. Men who have an affair. It takes work. Jesse: It does. A lot of work. Anne: They have to figure out how to get her phone number, or they have to text her. They have to figure out what lies to tell you. And none of these things are accidental. I’ve always laughed about this when teenagers, they’re like, “Oh, we accidentally had sex and she’s pregnant.” I’m like, so your pants accidentally unzipped and they accidentally came off, and your private parts accidentally went into her private parts. What are you talking about? There was no part of this that was accidental. There’s no part of this where you like fell into sin. Jesse: Yes. Anne: Was caught in sin. Jesse: Sometimes those things will be excused as a mistake. It takes the intention and personal responsibility out of it as something that you accidentally did, and that’s not true. Anne: I mean, it takes planning. It takes effort. I mean, that’s like saying I accidentally robbed a bank. Jesse: Yes, Anne: No, she just started kissing me. What was I supposed to do about it? I accidentally looked at explicit material. What are you talking about? I’ve literally never accidentally watched Star Trek. I’ve never accidentally, I don’t like the show Friends. I don’t enjoy it. I’ve never accidentally watched it ever. If it comes on, I just turn it off. So these guys are not accidentally watching explicit material, they’re seeking it out. Like in these scriptures of Judas’ betrayal, he sought the priests. Jesse: Exactly. Self Control in scripture isn’t gender specific Anne: If they do run into it, just like I might run into “Friends”, then I just turn it. It’s like not a big deal. There’s no accidental, I viewed pornography for three hours and masturbated, no. Jesse: Yeah, exactly. Yes, like they have no self control. A lot of the Christian marriage literature I read painted men as not having any self-control. Women were painted as the gatekeepers of sexuality, and we either needed to ensure that our husbands were satisfied, on demand whenever they wanted it or needed it. It was touted as a need for men. If we did not do that, of course, they were going to stray because we were not meeting their needs. Self-control in scriptures on betrayal is not gender specific. We’re all supposed to have it and be able to control ourselves. Anne: Well, like what were they supposed to do before they got married? Jesse: Exactly. Anne: If you’re in a coma, like does that justify either raping you in your hospital bed to be graphic about it or having an affair? Because apparently they must have sex. That’s so crazy. Jesse: A very specific example: When we were in counseling, my ex-husband told me he needed sex to be connected with me. The way that played out in reality after we had sex, he would go off and do whatever he was gonna do, engage in his hobbies, go to work, whatever. And then he wanted sex again. Then he’d be gone again. The Christian literature did not help, because it fed that narrative that it’s the way men connect. And I had to do that first to establish emotional connection. And that never happened. The Other Disciples Didn’t Know: Lying in Plain Sight of Everyone Anne: And so that means it’s a lie, and that means it was always manipulation because you’re always hoping. And this happens with couple therapy too. It happens with pastoral counseling. You’re always hoping the next session will be the breakthrough. Every intimate time, maybe then you’ll feel emotionally connected. But it never comes, because it was all a lie to manipulate you to have sex whenever he wanted, but he didn’t care about you. He was just using you. So we talked about before the devil didn’t make him do it. He is the devil, Christ says. Then he says in one of the verses on betrayal, “One of you will betray me.” We know people heard it because everybody asks, “Is it I?” He says, “I’m going to dip the bread and give it to the person who will betray me.” This reminds me of a dinner I had with my family. My ex is there, my whole family is there. I talked about this on the Josh Powell episode, ’cause it was right after Josh Powell had murdered his kids. So I’m sitting at dinner with everyone, and I’m like, “Hey, if anything happens to me, Chuck did it.” And I said it in front of him and my family, ’cause I thought that would keep me safe. So, I wonder if Christ is like, maybe if I out him in front of everybody, then he is not gonna do it. And then, Judas eats it. I’m like, why did he eat it? I’m wondering if he was like, well, everybody else ate their bread. If Judas Didn’t Repent When Christ Confronted Him, Why Would Your Husband Repent When He’s Confronted? Anne: So, I’m going to eat it and be like, of course it’s not me, but I have to eat the bread ’cause everybody else did. I don’t know what was going through his mind, but that’s interesting to me that he ate it. Part of me thinks that when we have proof, we know that he is texting a coworker or something, and we take that and put it in front of him. And the thought is he’ll be like, “You got me.” So in this instance, I can imagine they’re like, this is Christ. Do they know that he’s perfect? This is a question I’ve been wondering. He’s their friend. He does stuff on Sunday, and they’re like, you’re not supposed to do that on Sunday. They question him. So we know he’s perfect, but they might not have truly understood because they’re seeing him do some things that aren’t traditional, that aren’t within cultural norms, so here’s Judas’ thinking. “What do I do? He’s calling me out in front of everybody.” And it reminds me a little bit of when you have proof. They don’t respond the way you think. And so if you have thought, “I’m gonna show him this, and then he’ll have no choice but to repent.” Know that our Savior, Jesus Christ, also was like, “Hey, the person I’m gonna give this bread to is the person who betrayed me.” In these scriptures on betrayal, Judas still did it. If you’ve enrolled in the Living Free Workshop, you’ll understand why these strategies don’t work and what Christ taught us to do. Offer The Truth and Let Them Go Anne: There are verses on betrayal and several places where Christ talks about what to do with someone who is dangerous, which he actually did with Judas. He let Judas have his own way. Jesse: Yes, there are several instances in scripture on betrayal where Jesus confronts people. He gives them the opportunity to accept the truth. But he does not pursue them and continue to say, “Hey, I’m telling you the truth here. Why aren’t you believing me? I’m the Messiah.” He just doesn’t do that. He offers the truth and lets them go on their merry way. Something that as a Christ follower and wife, I got a lot of mixed messages on that: don’t say too much because he’s your husband, he’s busy, he’s working hard, he’s stressed out, so don’t overburden him with all these worries that you have. I was encouraged more to go after my husband in his love languages, like his need for physical touch, or making sure the home was kept just right. The lesson from scripture for me now is that Jesus presented the truth to people. He let them go and do what they were going to do. You said two things there that I thought were interesting. The part, like, don’t burden him. This type of, I’m gonna say “Christian” teaching is a double standard, because he is supposed to be like Christ. And Christ wants you to take all your burdens to him. But apparently you are the one who’s supposed to bear all the burdens, and you’re not supposed to take any of your burdens to him. that’s a problem. The Scriptures of Judas: Betrayal Was Happening the Whole Time Anne: The second one, so many people talk in these verses on betrayal about Judas’ betrayal of Jesus, as if it happened the night he actually gave him up. But it was happening the whole time, it’s happening when he criticizes Mary and throws her under the bus. It’s happening when he actually makes the deal with the religious authorities. It’s happening the whole time. So when Jesus says, “The person I give the bread to will betray me.” Judas already betrayed him. He has a history. If we were in Christ’s position, not if we are Christ, but if we’re there, and Judas is our husband at the dinner. And we’re like, “Hey, he’s gonna betray me if he keeps doing this stuff.” Let’s just imagine all the people involved with this. They’re all sitting around the table and you’re like, this is what’s happening. He’s gonna betray me. Now in that moment, what did they tell us? They told us to pray for him. They told us to go to couple therapy. So in that moment where Judas takes the bread, Christ isn’t like, “Hold on, push pause on this whole thing. Can somebody call a couple therapist.” He didn’t say, “Wait, can you guys, hold on? I’m gonna pray so hard, it’s going to fix Judas, and I’m gonna come out and he is not gonna betray me anymore.” That does not happen. Instead, what does Christ say in that moment? He says, “Whatever you’re gonna do, do it fast.” Jesse: Yes. Anne: Paraphrasing, whatever you’re about to do, get on with it. Jesus Didn’t Need to Change to Prevent Judas’ Betrayal Anne: A lot of us feel this urgency, like something’s gotta change. We get to that point. But in scriptures on betrayal, instead of everyone else being like, “Jesus got to that point too. I get it, good for you. You’re following the Savior’s example.” Instead, they’re like, no, no, no. Hold, wait, wait, wait, go to couple therapy, get pastoral counseling. Have you prayed about it? Are you staying on your side of the street? In that moment, he does not pursue Judas. He doesn’t try to get Judas to change. He doesn’t do anything about Judas. Also, he also doesn’t do anything about himself. He’s not like, I need to go to 12 Step, or I need to be a better communicator, or I need to change so that Judas doesn’t betray me. Jesse: Right, I’m certain he’s been aware of Judas behavior all along. It’s hard to reconcile that Christ would allow Judas to still be part of his inner circle behaving that way. But he finally gets to that point, and I think this is the lesson certainly for me. When you’ve said all the things. And you’ve tried everything you knew to do, to reach your husband. Saying, “Hey, I see this thing happening. I’m not comfortable with it. Please pay attention to our marriage. Please protect our marriage.” And you realize they’re still gonna pursue this person, or they’re still gonna pursue pornography. I finally got to the point where I was like I don’t wanna live the rest of my life trying to figure out what the truth is. Trying to figure out when the next relationship will happen. Scriptures on betrayal: Betrayed With A Kiss Anne: Because you’ve been able to see his character. He’s been betraying the whole time. I wanna make that clear. And then wouldn’t even say final act of betrayal, actually. ‘Cause we’ll talk about more betrayal that happens afterwards. He kisses him. How many of us have been betrayed with a kiss? They kiss us, act like they love us or care about us when they’re just exploiting us. In our case, this is sexual coercion. Where they’re lying to us about what they’re doing. And Judas said the same thing. Now, I wanna pause here and talk about the difference between Judas betraying Christ the whole time and the night that Peter denies the Savior. So here’s another example in the Bible on betrayal and Christ prophesying. But I’m starting to believe this was more of a directive, because Peter is a good person. No one ever called him a devil. And Christ says, “Before the cock crows, you’re gonna deny me three times.” I’m wondering now if it was a directive, “Look, these people wanna kill you. I don’t want you to die. I want you to be alive so that my work can continue. So you will deny me three times.” And maybe Peter’s like, “But I don’t wanna deny you.” And he is like, “No, you’re going to,” and then in the moment Peter’s like, “Oh, I get it. They might kill me. So, yeah, I don’t know him.” The Living Free Workshop talks a lot about these, I’ll say ethical and moral quandaries, where we’re sometimes to choose between our safety and being honest with someone who’s trying to exploit us. Our intentions are to protect ourselves. Scriptures on Betrayal: Peter was Different Anne: Whereas if they say, “Hey, I was just trying to protect myself from you.” Their intention is to exploit you, but they’re lying about protecting themselves ’cause they don’t need any protection. After Peter does that, the rest of his life he tries to spread the gospel. He’s like, “I did survive. I felt bad about denying him that night, and the rest of my life, I will try to bring people to Christ.” There are so many examples in the Bible on betrayal and people who do terrible things. And then they repent, and they spend the rest of their lives as a missionary. Paul’s one of those. So, Judas could have been like, “Oh, I really messed up. I’m gonna spend the rest of my life making amends for this.” Judas does not do that. So this is one other thing I want women to think about. A lot of us are like, if I could just get him to feel remorse, if I could just get him to understand. If he has an exploitative character and does feel remorse. We don’t know what he felt remorse for. Did he feel remorse that like Jesus was crucified and he couldn’t use Jesus anymore? Jesse: Hmm. Anne: He couldn’t use him for political reasons. His political aspirations are dead in the water if he was riding on Christ’s coattails to do that. And because he doesn’t actually believe in him as a Savior. Scriptures on Betrayal: Look for the Fruit of Repentance Anne: What reason does he have to look to his teachings anymore or any of the principles of the gospel? Whereas Peter actually believed the principles of the gospel and wanted to teach them to people. But Judas doesn’t have any faith or hope. So I want women to remember that if he has an exploitative character, remorse will not do anything. Jesse: Right, it’s not gonna bear good fruit. I think it actually mentions in one of the translations of these scriptures on betrayal that Judas had worldly sorrow. Whereas if it’s a Christlike fruit of the spirit type of sorrow, Godly sorrow. You’re prone to return to Christ where your hope comes from. And return to repentance, truly feeling sorry for whatever harm you’ve caused. The worldly sorrow tends to be more self-centered. I’m sorry I got caught. I’m sorry I’m experiencing pain. Anne: i’m sorry that I can’t exploit him anymore. Jesse: Right. Anne: I’m sorry I can’t have my cake and eat it too. Men who want to use explicit material and also have a family. They might express remorse that they can’t do both. It seems so genuine when they’re talking to us. To think of them feeling really bad is actually true. It’s just that they’re lying to you about what they’re feeling bad about. Jesse: Right. Anne: Because Judas didn’t do anything to help the cause after that. Scriptures on Betrayal: Following Christ’s Example Anne: So to recap, what can we learn from the Bible about betrayal and the way Jesus handled Judas betraying him, the whole time Judas exploitative character? Number one, Jesus saw Judas character through his actions. He never sugarcoated it. He called out what was happening in real time, when Judas was doing it with Mary. And he warned what would happen if Judas didn’t change. Despite those warnings and clear indicators from the Savior himself, Judas kept lying, exploiting, and betraying. So if somebody tells you to stop shaming your husband, or to quit sharing his so-called “mistakes” with other people, or to stop being judgy. Feel free to roll your eyes at them. Following Christ’s example means speaking the truth plainly and boldly, and calling out truth isn’t wrong. It’s never been wrong, and anyone who tells you it is, that’s manipulation so he can continue to exploit the situation. So if he doesn’t change or gets worse, none of it has anything to do with you being honest. I say that, while also saying the Living Free strategies show the part I talked about with Peter, like how to protect yourself when you are in danger. It’s important to know what those strategies are. Because Christ himself says there are times when it’s not safe to say the truth boldly. Like, don’t cast your pearls before swine, agree quickly with an adversary. 1. You Stating the Truth Is NOT The Problem Anne: I cover this in detail during the Living Free Workshop, so I encourage you to check it out. But first, let me be clear—stating the truth is not the problem. Searching Bible verses on betrayal helped me find strength and clarity on this. 2. Jesus Was Perfect and Someone Still Betrayed Him Anne: Number two, Jesus is perfect, and someone still betrayed him. So if anyone’s telling you that if you prayed more or did something different, your husband wouldn’t have betrayed you, that is a lie. There’s nothing you could have done. It was all his choices. 3. Remorse: What Are His Actions Telling You Anne: And number three, if your husband has a deceitful, exploitative character, even if he seems to feel “remorse”, it will not lead to repentance. So if you’re trying to observe, does he have this type of character? And he’s had those moments where he seemed remorseful before. And he continued to do it. You don’t have to find out again. Just like Jesus already knew long before the final betrayal. But I’m gonna say the final betrayal was that he didn’t spend the rest of his life making amends for what he’d done. He just completely gave up on the gospel, altogether. Because Judas had the character that he did, remorse won’t help him. So if you’ve been thinking there’s something you could do to get him to feel that, it wouldn’t necessarily lead to what you’re hoping for. It’s really sad. So like our Savior, women want peace. They want a peaceful home. That’s what I wanted, you wanted, and what all of us want. Following Christ example, Judas didn’t change. We can be confident knowing that it has nothing to do with us. Jesse: Right, it’s manipulative to put the pressure on wives in our cases to keep us caught in this cycle of doing whatever the next thing is to try to get our husbands to change, to repent or to feel sorrow. Having sex in order to get him to connect with me emotionally felt manipulative to me. Because I’m doing something in order for him to be nice to me. You’re not doing anything wrong Jesse: I shouldn’t have to do that. But most of the Christian teachings I read and was exposed to didn’t frame it that way. It framed it as my duty, and he needed that to connect with me. Anne: Yeah, no one says, Christ, if you just prayed more, Judas wouldn’t have done that. Maybe if you spent more time with him alone, maybe you paid too much attention to Peter, James, and John, and you weren’t paying enough attention to Judas. I’m thinking he’d be like, “What are you talking about? The reason I didn’t wanna hang out with Judas as much as Peter is ’cause he was a pain in the butt. What do you mean? It’s not me, it’s Judas.” Jesse: Yes, exactly. Anne: Why would I wanna hang out with him? He is not a good person. Like, why would I wanna have sex with my husband? He is not nice to me. Jesse: Exactly. Anne: This is crazy town. I think he would say that, because of my study of bible verses about betrayal. I think he would be like, “You’re not doing anything wrong, Jesse and all listeners.” I did the same thing, and Judas still betrayed me. Jesse: That’s what I love about the Living Free Strategies. The way the strategies are laid out helps identify your own thought processes and their thought processes. For me, as a believer, as a Christ follower, it helped me question, why am I believing this thing my husband is telling me? Because my body tells me something’s not right. You want to believe what your husband tells you is true, but when their behaviors give you something else, you have cognitive dissonance. Living Free Strategies Jesse: Telling me that he needs me to tell him what to do in our relationship, but he seems to have no problem figuring out what to do to reach out to this other person. So Living Free gave me a framework where I could actually write things down and analyze if it is really true. The exercises really made things clear. Helping me discern when he’s lying to me, what is actually happening here. And what do I do to have peace and love that I desire and I am worthy of having? Anne: You are, all listeners right now are worthy of love and a healthy relationship. And a therapist or other type of coach might tell you if he’s unhealthy, then you are. And that’s not true. You could be the healthiest person like Jesus Christ, and have a relationship with an unhealthy person who betrays you. The Living Free strategies give women mental, psychological and emotional space to observe truth. Jesse: Yes. Anne: That’s the hardest part of all this. What is actually going on? Who is he in relation to me? What am I to him? Living Free makes that clear, because I just don’t think divorce is the solution. Maybe a domestic violence shelter will tell you that divorce will solve all your problems. I’m grateful I’m divorced. Would I ever tell a woman not to get divorced? No, if she wants to get divorced, go for it. But my ex abused me post-divorce for eight years. If you share kids, figuring out the strategic way to see him for who he is. Whether married or not, is so important. Because he’s going to be that person, just like Judas was no matter what. Learning Strategies to help you Anne: People are like, oh, just don’t let him affect you, while he’s emotionally punching you in the face. You’ve got an emotional bruise. There’s nothing you can do about that bruise. It doesn’t matter if you’re married or divorced, he’s still going to affect you, even if he’s just texting you about your kids. Learning these strategies while you’re married, divorced, or whatever your situation is no matter what’s going to happen, is really important. Because no matter what, metaphorically, there’s no way you can get punched in the face and not get a bruise. Jesse, thanks for helping me sort all this out. There are lots of things to think about. Thank you so much for being here to talk about this today. Jesse: Yeah, I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you.

Transcribed - Published: 23 September 2025

Divorce isn’t just paperwork—it’s a complex emotional and logistical process that’s almost impossible to navigate alone. Divorce and emotional abuse go hand-in-hand. If you’re struggling after divorce, the right support can make all the difference. This episode is part of a series: This episode follows Felicia’s Story Part 1: This Is Why You’re Not Codependent – Felicia’s Story Part 2: Divorce and Emotional Abuse – Felicia Checks in 9 Months Later (THIS EPISODE) If you’re a woman going through the pain of a divorce, you don’t have to go through it alone. We are here to help with three easy-to-use resources that can support you as you heal and get back on your feet. Plus, you can access all of them online from anywhere. 1. The Right Information Did you know that many women are/were emotionally abused to the point that it resulted in divorce. But they blamed themselves (not knowing it was emotional abuse)?? Do you feel confused by your soon-to-ex’s behavior? Does he blame you for his affair or for the divorce? Are you questioning your own reality and emotions? Our Free Emotional Abuse Quiz can help you identify what actually happened. By understanding the true cause of the divorce, you can start making quick forward progress toward healing. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast helps women understand emotional abuse, manipulation, and recovery after betrayal. Most episodes feature a woman sharing her story. Listening to these stories can help you feel seen, give you clarity, and show you actionable next steps for your own healing. 2. The Right Support Healing doesn’t happen in isolation—it happens in a community of women who truly understand what you’re going through. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are designed to offer just that. Picture joining a support session from your couch, your kitchen, or even your car. First, you meet a group of kind women who understand what you’re going through, because they’ve been through tough times too. Hearing other women share their stories helps you feel understood. When you share your story, you get support and advice instead of judgment. Plus, these daily sessions are easy to join and won’t cost too much. There are more than 21 sessions every week, so it’s easy to find one that works for you. The women running the sessions have been through similar experiences, so they know how to provide the support you need. 3. The Right Strategy For Healing Healing from divorce requires more than information and support—it takes strategy to achieve your goals. That’s where the Living Free Workshop gives you simple steps to protect your emotions and mind. Whether you’re still married, separated, or already divorced, this workshop can help. You’ll learn easy tools to understand your ex-husband’s actions and figure out what he might do next. This workshop has 65 short video lessons, and each one is only about 3 minutes long. Plus, it comes with a free, printable workbook. And 13 Meditations. You’ll learn simple techniques to help you escape his chaos and control. With easy steps and clear instructions, you’ll know exactly what to do next. Transcript: Divorce And Emotional Abuse Anne: Everyone knows divorce isn’t just paperwork. It’s a complex emotional and logistical process that’s almost impossible to navigate alone. Divorce and emotional abuse go hand in hand. So if you’re struggling after divorce, or making the decision to divorce, the right support can make all the difference. Welcome back, Felicia. Felicia: Thank you so much. Felicia’s Community Struggles Anne: When I interviewed you five months ago, you felt rightfully very sad and frustrated. Because your community had turned against you, and you felt alone because of divorce and emotional abuse. Can you talk about what’s happened in the months since you came on the podcast? Felicia: At the time I was about to get a divorce. I thought my whole community supported me. So it was like the bottom dropped out when I got the divorce, and my ex managed to turn everybody against me. I had people calling me and telling me how awful I was. And I said before it was not happy for me to meet someone in the grocery store. It felt like, how could I be right and all these people be wrong? I felt like I had been in a safe place, like a good place when I got the divorce. I felt really healthy. And then suddenly I started to question my health, and in Christianity, you learn you can’t be the only right person. So you need your community to help tell you if you’re wrong. If everybody says you’re wrong, you probably are. And that just wasn’t the case. I had to find where I was and cheer myself on. Because integrity is when you are right and have to stand alone. And that’s actually what I was doing. Anne: During our last interview, you were really struggling. What changed? The Role Of Meditation In Healing Felicia: I did the Betrayal Trauma Meditations in The Living Free Workshop, and it was just … like I’m already traumatized. Why do I need to work so hard? The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Meditations give me truth that I think about and think about. Meditate on that. It’s true things about me, believing myself and regaining confidence. And that’s what I’ve done. I have my confidence back. I feel like my brain is healthy for the first time in a long time. I’ve have community now. I attribute a lot of the confidence I have from the Meditation Workshop and the truth. It led me to be my own best friend, know the truth about myself. And stop second guessing myself based on how everybody’s treating me. I first started playing the meditations while I went on a walk, and I would just think about the meditations as I walked. They were all centered around the truth about who I am as a person. And they helped me. Because I needed the truth about who I am in the meditations. And I didn’t need to dig and try to change. It was right there for me. Anne: Yeah, I love that about the betrayal meditations. That women don’t need to change or be anything different. Who they are right now is good enough, is exactly who they need to be. Felicia: Women need to learn about how beautiful they already are. The only thing that needs to change is for them to realize the truth about themselves. Last time we talked, I wasn’t that spunky about finding new friends. Because I was still so upset that my other friends dropped me, and dealing with divorce and emotional abuse. Finding Support During Divorce And Emotional Abuse Felicia: And I just figured, why find new ones, it’s going to be less real? But what happened is I just kept going to this church, and it’s really small. And they’re like older women. Lately, I needed help legally, because I’m fighting against my ex. I needed some people to write letters. And I’ve been going there a year now. They know what’s happened to me, and they’re just for me. Everything I want to do, they want to back me up on, and they have seen me be a mom. And they think I’m really good. And it wasn’t until I needed these letters written that I realized I have so many people that are helping me at a time that I really need it. Whereas all my friends have always been out of convenience, and then conveniently dropped off when I needed help. They weren’t helping when I went through divorce. I realized I still had lifelong friends that I hadn’t kept up with. And now I’m realizing how many people I have. But more importantly, the depth of support they’ve brought me. Anne: When I interviewed you nine months ago, you thought you had no one. But, I’m gonna restate here and see if I’m hearing you correctly. Number one, You didn’t realize there were more people who supported you than you thought, but also maybe number two, that many of those people you mourned their loss. Felicia: Yeah, I was in a time when you’re believing two realities. I know everyone said they’re not your real friends. But they felt so real, and then when the rubber hit the road, they weren’t actually there at all. Enemies Moved! Felicia: I was mad. I wish they hadn’t left me, and supported my ex, who was abusive. They knew he was abusive, inauthentic, and still left me. I don’t want friends like that, but I wanted friends like that. They were my friends, now I fully realize how unfriendly they were. They were my enemies. I call them my enemies now, because they were mean to me when I thought I had their support. And I was dealing with divorce and emotional abuse, it was all so heavy. So now I’m fully realizing who they were. I guess, because I fully realized who I am and how I’ve only been trying to do the right thing. Not only did I not do anything wrong, I’ve been trying to do everything right. And found myself, and I don’t want them in my life. And they just happened to be moving out of town now, which is awesome. I can’t believe that happened. Anne: That is awesome. I had a neighbor I did not like, and I actually put on my miracle board, which is like a vision board, that they move. I wrote on there that this family moves, and I walked out of my house one day. The for sale sign was in their front yard. And I was like, yes! Felicia: I know, that’s how I feel. It was actually my pastor’s wife, like my best friend, who chewed me out and like swore at me on the phone. On the way to this interview, I just drove by your house and the for sale was at the end of her lane, just like you said, and I was like, YES! Anne: Just now? You just saw it? Legal Battles & Emotional Struggles Felicia: Yes, I just saw it now. Yes, I just found out about all these people moving last week. I found out about all three of them moving on the same week. Anne: That is awesome. I’m so happy for you. Felicia: Yeah, I’m like, I can go to the store now. And I have my local church all to myself without all these hateful people around me. Someone has told me they’re afraid of me, and that’s why they’re leaving. It’s this spiritual thing, but honest to goodness, I became healthy, and now I found out they were gone. Anne: So you’re feeling good, which is awesome. That’s the benefit of living free. Even when you’re still in a tough situation, you can start feeling peace inside. So you’ve struggled with his legal and emotional abuse during divorce. Right after the divorce, he started suing you for all sorts of things. Felicia: Yes, since the divorce, he immediately started legal pursuit, and it was hard because his abuse was always hidden. And he got more aggressive, so my family got to see who he really was, for themselves. But the legal pursuit has been really hard. Before I did the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, I tried to give him what he wanted so that he would leave me alone. And then I found out that you don’t give an abuser what they want, so they’ll leave you alone. They’re bullies, and they’re always gonna just make it worse. It has escalated to the point where he’s telling lies in court under oath about me. Finding Strength To Withstand Emotional Abuse While Dealing With Divorce Felicia: But what’s good about it is that anytime we’ve had a hearing and a trial is coming up, the judge has ruled in my favor. And I was just overlooking that because I was so scared and I feel so powerless. But the judge surprised me this last time and ruled that we keep the child support the same. I thought he was going to drop it, and then my lawyer told me, do what’s best for your family, and that’s all you need to do. And when the judge asks you why you did something, you can tell him that you actually thought it was what was best for your family. And it was that statement that started to make me feel free again, because I was like, why do I need a lawyer to tell me to do what’s right for my family? Why did I not feel like I could do that? But in this legal battle, I honestly felt like I don’t even know if I can do what’s right for my family. Because of the gaslighting to where they make you question whether you’re doing something right. And when my lawyer said that, it made me realize, yeah, I can do what’s right for my family. And then the excuse I will give will be that I thought it was right for my family. Anne: That’s exactly what it was. You are trying to do the right thing. They are not trying to do the right thing. I’m so happy to hear that you have a good attorney and had a good ruling. That is rare when you’re dealing with divorcing an emotional abuser. The Path To Healing & Safety Anne: Did you think nine months ago that you would feel the way you feel now? Felicia: Months ago, you told me it would get better, and you encouraged me to the point that I was like, oh my word. We could do an interview again, and I could see if I could heal. I had a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach talk to me at the beginning and say, what do you want? I actually said, I want to be a better mom and stop yelling at my kids. And I felt like that was totally unrelated to what I was going through. She said, that’s what’s going to happen then. And she started asking me, what do you want here? What do you want there? And I wanted these healthy things, she said, you’ll get those healthy things. And now? I’ve tried and tried over the last months, plus the whole time I’ve been divorced. I’ve been like, where is my healing? I still felt traumatized by the emotional abuse. And what surprised me the most was that I was just striving. And suddenly it just came. I attributed it to God, but when I went on Facebook, in a healing from trauma group, and shared that God healed me. They said, would you please put trigger warning, religion? And I was like, no, it wasn’t religion at all. Like, none of the religion healed me. God healed me. And bam, I just want people to be encouraged that you can be trying to heal, trying to heal. And then suddenly it will come. The Power Of Validation & Safety Anne: The healing comes when we’re validated, and when we’re safe. The safety is the healing. So maybe something to consider is that the reason why you healed is because you learned safety strategies. You learned how to protect yourself, and over time you got more and more safe from the emotional abuse. Like the judge ruling in your favor. That is instant healing. Felicia: Yeah. Anne: Justice is a form of instant healing. If your ex moves to a different state and never talked to you again. That is instant healing. Felicia: Oh my word, yeah. Anne: People who say you need to learn how to deal with it. You just need to learn blah, blah, blah. I’m like, no, she just needs to not be abused anymore. Felicia: Yes. Anne: She needs to be in a safe place. And when you’re in safety, healing happens. I saw that same thing. And I struggled with post divorce abuse for eight years. I lost a court case, and then I was like, I’ve got to figure this out. I need strategies. That’s when I discovered the Living Free message strategies. It’s also when I wrote the meditations for myself. I did the meditations myself, then used the Living Free strategies and delivered my kids. Healing From Emotional Abuse With Workshops & Dance Anne: My ex basically signed the kids away out of court. And when they brought me safety, and then I replicated that with other victims. And they told me how amazing these strategies were. Once I knew they worked for everyone, not just for me, I wrote them in the Living Free Workshop so that everyone could learn them. He signed the kids away. And I was instantly healed. Instant, because we’re not crazy. There’s nothing wrong with us. Our husbands abuse us. For women listening, if they’re like, that’s great, but that doesn’t help that it just comes. What am I supposed to do in the meantime, right? Let’s talk about this. Things that you did in the meantime, you enrolled in Living Free. You did the Meditations. Can you talk about the dance class? Felicia: It’s actually an app, and I’m just dancing every day. I always wanted to dance through my pregnancies and stuff because it’s so healthy. But I’ve never danced. So I just wanted to learn the different types of dancing, and I try to dance for 10 minutes a day. Everything, little by little, is helping. I’m also on depression medication. So part of me wants to be like, Oh, it’s just that, but no, I’ve been on depression medication before. It’s not that. Actually, you know what I think happened? My ex always wanted me to think everything was me. It was all me. I had to change and become better. I talked in our last episode about how I thought I was a monster when I got married. And I always thought everything was my fault, and that wasn’t true. That was because of emotional abuse that I felt this way. Understanding Exploitative Behavior Felicia: That abuse mindset, where everything’s my fault, and it’s all because of me. Is what he wants me to think. And that’s what he still wants me to think. But the good thing is, the healthier I became, the more distant we became. And that’s exactly what’s happening now. I found myself divorced from the emotional abuse. So yeah, things are super hard still, the abuse is rampant. We have a trial coming up, but there is something about focusing on the truth. Anne: In the Living Free Workshop, it talks about how these men are exploitative. They want to exploit you, they don’t want you to go away. They want you close, so they can exploit you for energy. Your ex loves to play the victim in court right now. “She’s ruining me. She’s doing this.” And he feels like court is a great place to showcase how you’ve wronged him. But if you had wronged him, wouldn’t he want to be away from you? That’s how we can tell the victims from the perpetrators. After divorce and emotional abuse, victims desperately want to be away from them. We don’t ever have to talk again. I don’t want to have anything to do with you. And the abusers are the ones who are like, wait, I can’t exploit her anymore. What excuse can I use to message her? Oh, maybe I left my rock collection at her house, which they never cared about before, ever, ever. And then suddenly they’re like, this is the most important thing to me. And you took it from me when they could have just picked it up. So that exploitative character keeps them around. Living Free Strategies Anne: So the Living Free strategies are how to be unexploitable. Which does escalate them for a second. Because they’re like, wait, wait, wait. I was using her for this, and now I can’t use her anymore. But then eventually, there’s nothing for them to hold on to. Felicia: I am still waiting for him to finally de-escalate. But, yeah, I use the Living Free strategies exclusively. That’s the only thing I use to communicate with him. It was life changing. I only use those because they are so helpful. I go back to them. Let’s see, how should I respond to this right now? And it is helpful. Anne: Well, with your dancing, the meditations, living free and message strategies, I’m so happy to hear. That even though it’s still hard, you are feeling better from the abuse. Felicia, thanks for coming back on and giving us an update. Felicia: Thank you so much.

Transcribed - Published: 9 September 2025

If you’re thinking, “My husband is paranoid and angry,” this interview will help you sort out what’s really going on. It’s likely that you’re experiencing emotional abuse. To find out, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Transcript: My Husband Is Paranoid And Angry Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Louise. She’s here to share her story. So many women share a similar story. They talk about how their husbands are paranoid and angry. One of the reasons women think their husband is paranoid is because they don’t realize he’s lying. So when he says things like, you’re trying to control me, you don’t respect me, nobody respects me. Women take it at face value, they don’t realize he is lying. And so he sounds paranoid. And maybe he is, or maybe it’s just manipulation. Louise, Welcome. let’s start with your story. Louise: Thank you, we married at 19, and we knew each other all our life. I noticed he was mean to his sister, and I talked him out of that. So I thought he’d learned his lesson. I mean, the stories are all the same, but talking at me in the evenings in bed. And sometimes in the day for hours on end. Always disagreeing until I cried, and it took me years to figure that out. We were raised in that patriarchy setting. Where women just didn’t have a say, right? In the Mennonite church, and then we went into the Bill Gothard stuff. And I wanted to be the perfect wife and mother. And, and the way to do that was to be totally submissive and obedient. So then he was always saying, “But you’re not obeying me.” And when I did, he would, in front of the children, say, but I told you different. Anne: Wow, fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. And so he would move the goalposts? Louise: Basically, that crazy making, right? Early Marriage & Patriarchal Challenges Louise: We were married in 1972, and in those days, there was no information, there was no internet. We had seven biological children and three from an orphanage in Haiti. That was a difficult time. I went to the library one day, and there a little book caught my attention, called Men Who Hate Women. That was the beginning of my education. Anne: Before you found the book, what did you think was going on? Can you talk about your feelings at that time? Louise: I felt like I was never good enough. Why is he always paranoid and angry? And I thought if I was good enough, maybe something would work out. Or if we could get counseling, you know, the old story. Anne: You didn’t just think that, by the way. He was actually telling you that. He said to you, the problem is you. If you would cook better, if you would do this better, if you would serve me more, then it would solve our problems. Which kept you in this hamster wheel. Your husband manipulated you to think that. He wanted you to think that. Louise: And when he sensed that I thought that, then of course he used that, right? And pastors were no help, they said the same thing. And the teaching we had from Bill Gothard was that, as long as everybody was obedient to whoever was above them. That umbrella scheme, then everything would work out, right? A person is attracted to the promises that if you do this, everything will come out right. Anne: Exactly. This is one of the signs of spiritual abuse. Manipulation & Counseling Struggles Louise: I opened up this book in the library, and found a list. If your husband does six of these 20 things, then he is abusing you. And I got to number 11 or 12, and I slammed it shut. Because you don’t want to hear that, then what do you do? That’s the end of your life. And I snuck it home and read it, but there were no answers in it either. They didn’t have any answers, just explanations. And yeah, you’re supposed to be strong. But when you’re raised to think you’re not strong, and that you don’t have a say, then you can’t be strong. And then the next thing was my sister gave me the Boundaries Teachings. And that was a shock, that I was actually allowed to say no to anybody in this world. So I listened to that over and over. And very slowly, started to do that. And finally, one day, I prayed, and I read 1 Peter 3 and 4, and I read it several times. I thought, Okay, God, what do you want me to learn from this? And a light went on. This is not a formula, but this is what I feel I was told. And so I went to him, and I said, I think God told me you can have all the sex you want. And he goes, oh, and I said, but you have to choose. There are two types of relationship. There’s a master slave, and there’s Christ’s church, and you have to choose which one. If it’s a master slave, you command me to do, and I’ll just let you. My Husband Is Paranoid And Angry: Living With The Consequences Louise: And if it’s Christ’s church, you have to win me back, because you have lost my affection. Both options require humbling yourself, right? That’s not gonna happen. And first he yelled at me and said, “You’re my wife, you’re supposed to obey me. I command you to feel affection for me right now.” We slept in the same bed for three more years and never had it again. Because he couldn’t admit he wanted a slave, and he couldn’t humble himself to be Christ like. On the other hand, this gave him a lot of fuel with counselors. She hasn’t let me touch her in three years, right? I know he masturbated about four times a day. He did admit it , and then I figured out why I was finding him sleeping in the hay all the time, because he tired himself out with it. Anne: Wow. Louise: If he had magazines, I have no idea, because I didn’t think of it. I mean, we were married 25 years. And I only found some of this out right at the end. It didn’t cross my Mennonite mind, you know. So that was all that was on his mind. If I ever smiled at him, he would come rushing over and say, “You want it? You smiled at me.” That’s all that was on his mind. He was in Fantasyland. And if I tried to talk to him, I interrupted the fantasy, and he would be angry. He was paranoid and angry all the time. When I blew up once in a while, he accused me of being too angry and having to protect the children from me. Seeking Help & Facing More Abuse Louise: He would talk at me for hours and hours, just in circles, the crazy making thing. And I cried out to God, I said, God, what should I do? I actually heard the words shut up, in a nice way. And I said, what? It was like this never goes anywhere. Stop engaging in these conversations. So I did. And then he would tell counselors, she won’t talk to me, and if only she would communicate with me, we would be fine. And they would agree with him. Then I started writing things down, and when he caught me, he says, “You shouldn’t keep a record of wrongs, that was evil.” He was so paranoid. And we flew all the way to Minneapolis to this well known, good counselor. And I showed him my notes, he read them that evening, and the next day he said, “If this is true, we have a big problem.” Then he sent me out, he took my husband in, an hour later he brought me in, and he says, Your husband reassured me that you made all this up. Anne: What? Louise: Yeah, it was a Christian counselor. He and his buddy had written some books. I forget what they were called, and I don’t remember his name either. Anne: Wow, wow. Louise: Another time, my sister took me to her counselor in Vancouver. I told him one or two sentences of what was going on. And then he perfectly got it, and he said there’s only one thing you can do, and that’s an intervention. Get his friends together to intervene, and tell him he’s got to stop this behavior. Or else they’re going to help you get away. Psych Ward & Separation Louise: So I called my friends and they agreed to do that. And then they picked me up from my sister. And when I got to their place, they had called him to come get me, because I was all mixed up in the head. Anne: Oh, so they turned on you. Louise: So finally toward the end, we went to Elijah House in Washington. It was Christian counseling, they do prayer counseling. Throughout the counseling, they asked God, what’s going on here? And they figured it out, they said it was abuse. But he said it didn’t work. He said to me, don’t you know you’re always wrong? And when I told him I wasn’t going to talk all night. I said, if you can make me cry in five minutes, then you’ll suddenly see my point. And if it takes five hours, and he says, “Oh don’t you know that if I can make you sick or cry that makes a man out of me? Anne: Wow. Louise: It was shortly after that when I checked myself into the psych ward, because I just felt like I couldn’t take it anymore. And there was a counselor there, a psychologist, who talked to both of us and said, See, you just have to communicate with him. But the doctor in charge came to me on the third day and said, “Listen, the nurses tell me you don’t belong here.” Divorcing A Paranoid And Angry Husband Louise: What is really going on? And so I told him. A couple of days later, he said, do you want to go home? And I said, my kids need me. But I was happy there. And he said, I’m a Christian, I don’t believe in divorce. But I’m not going to let you out of here until I know you’ve made arrangements not to live with him anymore. And I fell apart because I thought that would be committing the worst sin in the book, even just separating. But I called my friend and she called the pastor and the pastor told him, Oh, just play along with it. Live in your van for a few days and once she gets home, she’ll let you back. Anne: Oh my word, this is abuse on top of abuse on top of abuse on top of abuse. Louise: Yeah, and my dad said, Oh, just give her a pill, but I never let him come back. Anne: You are so brave and so strong. You were resisting his abuse the whole time, because you did exactly what you were supposed to do. You were going for help, and no one, except for that last guy, was helping you, you are so brave. Louise: Actually, I wasn’t going to divorce him. His friend flew in and told him to get rid of me real quick, and so he divorced me. I think he thought I was making it all up. He’s married to my cousin, and we’ve always been friends. I’ve known him all my life, so I don’t know what the deal was, but I was glad. Second Marriage & Red Flags Anne: That his friend convinced him to let you go, really? Your resistance had become quite troublesome for him. That’s actually what happened to me. My ex divorced me because my resistance was so untenable to him. Louise: I think I made him look bad, so he had to make me look bad. Then I was single for eight years, and it was great. My health got better. I just loved raising the kids myself. But he basically ran me out of town. He played games with the finances. Totally ruined my reputation with my friends and the church and everything. In little subtle ways where, well, you know how she gets and stuff like that. And even my oldest daughter she came home one day. And she said, Mom, if you knew what people were saying about you in this town, you wouldn’t want to live here anymore. She didn’t actually share what she heard, but that’s what happened. And so I thought, you know, maybe marrying again would be a good idea. This must be a rare dynamic. Surely there aren’t many guys like that around. But I met my current husband. It was a visa thing, you had to move here a week before you get married type thing. Anne: So you meet him online, he’s got a farm, and you move to the States with him. Did you have a long distance relationship with him? Louise: Yeah, but it wasn’t that far, like five hours, we could see each other fairly often. And looking back, sure, you can see the red flags. Well, I have to confess to you that I found some old exploitative tapes, but I destroyed them. Repeated Patterns & Seeking Counseling Louise: So that sounds pretty good. right? On the wedding day, I had a friend I hadn’t known terribly long. And he went off driving with her all afternoon. Then he came home and took her into our bedroom for an hour with the door closed. I was shocked. I had my friends and family, they were all there in the house, and I still don’t know what they were thinking. Because he ignored them all, all day, and then a couple years later, I signed us up for a marriage retreat. I found out three years later, he had arranged for his girlfriend to be there, and her husband. I know he had another email account. So he was keeping in contact with a couple of girlfriends, and he was definitely into pornography. He admitted it to the counselor we went to. It was pretty much the same thing all over again. Several years ago, I said, if we want to make this work, I want you to sign up with an abuse counselor. And, oh, he was like, no, that’s not going to work because blah, blah, blah, blah. And finally, he did sign up and she interviewed him, and then she talked to me and she said, you know, you’re wasting your money. Take that money and get help for yourself. The biggest thing that has helped me, about five or six years ago, one day I looked in the mirror and I said, God, what do you think of me? How do you feel about me? And in the next three days, everything changed. Knowing God Loves Me Louise: I know what God thinks now. And so the next time he insulted my body, I just laughed. And I said something like, You’re not such a young punk yourself anymore. Something like that. Sometimes it still hurts. Sometimes it still makes me mad. But when you know to expect it, and you know it’s not your problem. That makes a huge difference, and I’ve also learned to do a lot of boundary setting. I know he thinks that means I’m controlling him, but I’m not. It used to be like, is it okay if I go to town? A lot of isolation, he didn’t want me to go to the town six miles away because it was a waste of gas. And I just say this is what I’m going to do today. I don’t know, there’s always answers and always help. The Bible says, Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice, and he will answer us. And sometimes he gives dreams, and sometimes a scripture, sometimes a friend. It’s important to have support when your husband is paranoid and angry. Anne: One of the symptoms of spiritual abuse is not feeling connected to God. And getting the right support like the support available through Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. How is it different? Louise: Oh, totally. Like night and day, the whole Christian world said you can’t get divorced. And it’s the woman’s fault, everything. You know, if you would treat him better or whatever, this wouldn’t be happening. And you try until you make yourself sick, right? And, you know, we can be thankful for all the support we have, but you still have to reach out. Because my husband is paranois and angry. Anne: Well, do you know why we have that support now? It’s because of women like you, I’m standing on your shoulders. Reflecting On The Past Anne: Had you not resisted in all the ways you resisted, I would not be here. And so we all owe a great debt to women who came before us, who led the way for us. Louise: Our stories hopefully can help someone else. Who is dealing with an angry and paranoid husband. Anne: I’m so grateful for women who pressed on without any support. Your stories are both inspiring, and then also so horrific. It sounds like torture, and I’m so sorry you went through that. It’s awful. Louise: And the hard part is when people don’t believe you, you know? Anne: Mm hmm, yeah, can you believe that people are still not believing women? Louise: Yeah, no, it’s amazing. Anne: Yeah, yeah, it is. You are so brave and incredible. And as you continue to grow and heal. I’m so grateful to have you as part of our community. Thank you so much for all your support. Engagement With Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast Anne: How long have you been listening to the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast? Louise: For years, almost from the beginning, I think. Anne: Thank you so much for your support. Do you remember how you found the podcast? Louise: I think on Facebook. And I sure appreciate what you all do. Anne: We appreciate you. Thank you for all your support over the years. If it weren’t for women like you, we wouldn’t be doing this. So thank you. Louise: Yeah. Thanks so much for putting it out there. I mean, it takes something to just put our stories out there. Anne: It does. It’s a lot of work. It’s so worth it. I’m so honored to hear women’s stories, because it’s a very vulnerable thing to share your story. Thank you so much, Louise, for sharing today. It will make a big difference to someone who hears it. Thank you so much. Louise: Thank you.

Transcribed - Published: 26 August 2025

If you never thought you’d have to deal with narcissistic abuse in marriage, you’re not alone. To see if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of emotional abuse you’ll experience from a narcissist, take our free emotional abuse quiz. If you are experiencing narcissistic emotional abuse, you will need support. For live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today. 5 Clear Signs of Narcissistic Abuse in Marriage 1. You’re constantly second-guessing yourself. Gaslighting makes you doubt your memory, instincts, and even your sanity. You start asking, “Is it really that bad?” That’s by design. 2. He makes big promises—and never follows through. Future faking sounds like: “We’ll go to Italy next year” or “I’m applying for jobs tomorrow.” It’s all smoke and mirrors designed to keep you hooked. 3. You’re carrying the entire relationship. If you’re paying the bills, managing the emotions, and making excuses for his behavior—you’re being exploited, not partnered. 4. Therapy made things worse. Couples therapy often misses narcissistic abuse. When the abuser charms the therapist, you walk away feeling more confused and blamed. 5. You think choosing yourself is selfish. Survivors of narcissistic abuse in marriage often struggle with guilt. But choosing you isn’t selfish—it’s survival. And it’s the first step toward freedom. Transcript: How To Deal With Narcissistic Abuse In Marriage Anne: I have Ingrid Clayton on today’s episode. She’s a clinical psychologist and trauma therapist in Los Angeles, California, and the author of the memoir, Believing Me. Welcome, Ingrid. Ingrid: Thank you so much, Anne. So happy to be here. Anne: Ingrid, let’s start at the beginning of your story. Ingrid: Wow, for me, it goes back to my childhood. So my parents divorced. And my mother rapidly remarried my dad’s best friend. That already sets the stage of the first betrayal. And this man, I can now use this language. This is not language I had for a long time, but he started to groom me. And what I now know set me up to please, appease and do everything I could to keep myself safe in a very unsafe environment. So with my first husband, with so many boyfriends before him. My blueprint was, I will find a way to keep myself safe in an unsafe relationship. So my memoir is about me unpacking decades of that experience. Sort of untangling it as a survivor, but also as a therapist who didn’t know that she had complex trauma. Because as we know. With narcissism, it’s decades of gaslighting and I believed it wasn’t that bad. Maybe it’s me, and if I try a little harder, you know, all those things. Anne: So when you say blueprint, you didn’t know that you were continuing to encounter abusive people. What labels did you give them back when you were unaware of the type of character these people had? Ingrid: I don’t think I would have used the word abusive, that felt too strong. But I saw there was a pattern, I saw they were dysfunctional relationships. Patterns Of Dysfunctional Relationships Ingrid: I went and sat on many therapist couches. And a lot of the language given back to me, things like codependency. I couldn’t see myself in that label, this idea that I was trying to control. There was this lens that felt shameful and stigmatizing, and that also didn’t feel like it helped me. So I kept going and trying. And I thought maybe one day it would shift. Meanwhile, there was just a lot of wreckage, and I didn’t know why. And the narcissistic abuse always presented a little differently. It was active alcoholism, someone who was compulsively cheating on me, exploitation, financially and otherwise. It looked differently in each relationship, but I certainly saw the thread. And it was so painful. So devastating. Anne: This is why you’re not codependent, you were doing safety seeking behaviors. While you were sitting on those therapy couches, did any of the therapists say the word abuse to you? Ingrid: Gosh, it’s a good question. I know none of them used the word trauma, which was the piece that finally became so helpful to me. They may have used the word abuse in relation to my upbringing. So here’s the other part of my story. Growing up, I went to the counselor at my then high school. Eventually, I said, here are all the things happening. I think this is wrong. And she said, “I’m a mandated reporter. And we need to call social services.” So it turned into what was essentially me initiating this intervention on my family. I was about 16 at the time, but if we rewind even further, maybe 12 years old, a friend’s parents had called social services on my behalf. Intervention & Family Betrayal Ingrid: And they orchestrated this sort of secret meeting with me and a social worker. She sat me down with her clipboard, and this seemed like this formal way. And asked me all these questions. She wanted to know where’s the physical abuse. And I was like, I know he’s hit my mom, but I’ve never seen it. I didn’t have the words. I’ve just seen her bruises. I know he’s done this to my brothers, but it wasn’t about physical abuse. And at 12 years old, this woman said to me, emotional abuse isn’t reportable. Anne: Wow. Ingrid: Okay, so I get to 16 years old, and here we are. I have a counselor who’s taking me seriously, and she’s said, I’m a mandated reporter, we gotta bring social services in here. And what happened then is, they brought my stepdad in and he said, Ingrid, You’re a liar. You made this all up. I have no idea what you’re talking about. This is all a figment of your imagination. And then we turned to my mom, who basically said, I believe him. So this is such a big piece of the trauma landscape, right? There’s the, what happened to us. And then there’s how people responded to what happened to us. In fact, a deeper cut as far as I’m concerned, in my personal experience. I knew what my stepdad was doing was wrong, but I believed the people meant to protect me and help me were going to do that. Ingrid: And when they didn’t. Not consciously, but in my body, I started to believe, particularly when my own mother wasn’t able to step in and protect me. Narcissistic Abuse In Marriage: Struggles With Self-Worth Ingrid: I must not be worthy of protection, love, safety, so it’s this additional layer to what informed me going out into the world. I wasn’t experiencing physical abuse in any of my relationships. So it’s not like I went to a therapist and said, Oh, you know, here’s my experience. And they were trying to reflect that back to me as abusive. I was talking about cheating or unavailability, but I don’t think they were using that language. Anne: They discounted you to the point where you thought you were not worthy of protection. But was there also a part of you that thought, maybe this isn’t abuse? Not understanding what narcissistic abuse in relationships is made it hard to identify. Like, maybe I’m making a mountain out of a molehill, or maybe I’m crazy, or maybe this is my fault? Ingrid: I would say both things became true. This is where I picked up on those story lines, and I wasn’t sure. I never thought I made it all up. So it’s not like I thought I was a liar. I knew what happened, but I did wonder, and this is so classic for complex trauma survivors, was it that bad? Like we all walk around with this trauma measuring stick. I can think of someone else who had it worse. So suddenly mine doesn’t really count. The thing that we know about trauma is that it’s not even about the traumatic event. It’s how the traumatic event overwhelmed your nervous system. So this whole idea about a measuring stick related to the event is just ludicrous anyway. But honestly, I wasn’t the only one carrying that measuring stick around. I think therapists in the mental health field carried it similarly for many years. The Journey To Self-Discovery Ingrid: You know, trauma was related to acute single events. It was related to veterans, which meant it was largely related to men. I’m 50 years old now. So I grew up when we didn’t have as much information. And consequently, even my own training as a clinical psychologist. I mean, I’ve been practicing in the field for almost two decades, and that didn’t give me the lens and language either for trauma from narcissistic abuse. And the story of my memoir is that I have to become my own trauma therapist. And I’m just sitting at my kitchen table, writing these stories, reclaiming them again. So that I could look on the page and see for myself, this was narcissistic abuse. I didn’t have that lens or language either. I’m so grateful that I received this call to write in this fast and furious way that wouldn’t let me go no matter how much I tried. I also think it’s the most heartbreaking thing. I’ve been asking for help since I was a little girl, and I had to wrestle it for myself all alone at my kitchen table. Anne: All of my listeners would relate. Every one of them, because they didn’t know they were surviving narcissistic abuse in their marriage. They did what they were supposed to do and resisted oppression. They were resisting the abuse. And they didn’t know that’s what they were resisting, but so they went for help, right? They went to clergy. They went to their therapist, and it wasn’t named trauma. Misguided Therapy Approaches Anne: Instead, maybe in couple therapy, for example, they’re told, okay, let’s improve your communication strategies. Let’s figure out how to … Ingrid: Knit this relationship back together, I think that’s unfortunate. A couple comes to them and they’re saying, we’re having difficulty. There’s this idea in couples therapy. Obviously they’re coming, because they want to work on the relationship. They probably believe it’s salvageable. And as an individual therapist, I had to call my client’s couples therapist. Do not mistake her boyfriend’s ability to charm you in session for this being a repairable, healthy, relationship. Anne: The victim does not know that she’s a victim of narcissistic abuse. Ingrid: That’s right. Anne: And the perpetrator is never going to be like, hey, I’m a perpetrator. Ingrid: I’m the problem, yeah. Anne: He’s never going to say that. Ingrid: That’s right. Yeah, it’s a painful reality that we ask for help and the help is not helpful. Oftentimes it’s even more harmful. Anne: Yeah, it’s really hard. So let’s talk about your relationship before you understood it was abuse, what did you think was going on? Ingrid: I want to start by saying that I felt like marriage was the thing that would give me the stamp of approval that would finally make me okay. So if I wasn’t chosen by my parents, I had this deep need to be chosen by somebody else. It’s another aspect of the blinders I had on. Not Knowing The Red Flags Of Narcissistic Abuse In Marriage Ingrid: And so when I met my ex-husband, there were signs. You know, what other people would call red flags. So I saw these things, but simultaneously did not see them. So I was racing towards this finish line of wanting and needing to be married. Anne: You mentioned that desire to belong. Was it also external? Did you grow up in a religious setting where marriage was part of the equation to happiness did that idea of marriage also come from an external source? Ingrid: Yeah, I mean, look at every movie and TV commercial, right, it’s everything I grew up with and experienced. This even going to graduate school as a woman and getting my PhD. You would talk to people, and you would tell them about your studies, and they would be like, Oh, so tell me about your relationship status. It didn’t matter what else I was doing. I felt like I was still sitting at the kid’s table, the kid’s table of Thanksgiving, until I was partnered up. So it was a million subtle cues from the larger environment that, of course, impacted what was also this internal trauma response, right? Like this need, this drive to be validated, and it attached itself to this idea of marriage. And actually when we got engaged, my ex-husband wanted to be an actor, and he wasn’t working. And we entered into this arrangement of living together. It was like suddenly he just started pulling back more and more. Where it’s like he’s not contributing to our overhead. But the mask he continued to wear more overtly was, we are the happiest loving couple ever. People see our energy, and they’re so jealous of our love. Graduate School & Financial Exploitation Ingrid: Right, this sort of love bombing slash sort of future faking. Like it’s gonna be so amazing. So the overt mask was still we’re incredible. But simultaneously, he starts not contributing to our bills. And I’m saying like, what would you do if you were living alone? You know, wouldn’t you feel like you had to be responsible for yourself? Because at the time I’m in graduate school, I’m living on student loans. I certainly wasn’t taking out student loans to support another person who just stopped working. So I would bring these things up in this very sort of neutral way. Hey, you know, I see this happening. And if he didn’t immediately like agree or change. It was like, okay, I brought it up. He says he wants to work. He says he’s trying, so I guess that has to be enough. So I just start to swallow it down and accommodate what is his really financial exploitation. You know, fast forward to where we got engaged. And he proposed with this little silver, um, like a dime store ring as like a placeholder for an engagement ring. And we went shopping for an engagement ring, and we get to the counter and see this one, and isn’t it amazing, right? Like, I feel like I’m living in this, uh, jewelry commercial, you know, it’s like, here it is. Is this the one? He turns to me in front of the salesperson and says, if you put it on your credit card, I’ll make all the payments. And I was devastated. And embarrassed. I thought, what does even the salesperson think of me right now? A, that I’m being put in this position, and B, I’m about to hand over my credit card. Discovering The Truth Ingrid: And I know that in my body, it’s like, no one can ever know. So that’s part of what allowed me to know there was abuse. My ex-husband pretended he wasn’t pretending. That’s like our whole relationship, I was like, okay, I’m going to hand over my credit card. And of course he never made a payment. We never brought it up again. Eventually, I came to see that he was probably drinking and smoking pot all day in our apartment when I was off at work. And I am a recovering alcoholic. I almost have 30 years of sobriety now. I forget what it was then, but I had a lot of time under my belt. So I know alcoholism, right? I grew up also with addiction. And I knew that I was uncomfortable with some of his drinking. I literally didn’t know that he was using to the extent he was. So just all the secrecy, the lies, and the layers of deceit, it just started to pile up. Until it was only a year into marriage. I’d never had this conscious thought before, but suddenly I knew I had to open the hall closet. And open the hall closet door. I saw a suitcase tucked behind like boots and all kinds of things. Again, never a conscious thought, but my body knew you got to open the closet. Drag that suitcase out from the back, open it up, and there were all the vodka bottles. So, I finally had this evidence, this, oh my gosh, this is part of what’s going on. I Even if I didn’t have a label, I knew what narcissistic abuse in my marriage looked like. Choosing Self Over An Abusive Narcissistic Relationships Ingrid: And it wasn’t something he could talk me out of. Like, oh yeah, I’m trying to work, and oh, I’m getting a job tomorrow, whatever it was. It was like, I had this concrete thing, and eventually it was part of what enabled me to say, I can’t do this. And in a strange way, I look at divorce as probably the beginning of the healing of my complex trauma. Instead of waiting and hoping for someone to choose me. And I did it with the marriage, but then I was like, he’s going to choose me again by getting a job, right? Like, he’s going to choose me again by quitting drinking, right? He wants to get sober. He wants to live this life that he’s been promising me. Like he talked the best game ever. I believed those words. And so I thought, doesn’t he believe them too? Like he will show up for that. And finally I said, I can’t keep waiting for someone else to choose me. I have to do it even though no one else ever did. Anne: You chose you. You started learning how to heal from a divorce you didn’t want. Ingrid: I had to choose me, and that’s what I did in my divorce, and that puts a nice bow on it, which is a true one. I believe I got so much freedom through walking away. But it’s not to say it wasn’t excruciating, because simultaneously, I believed in my then late 30s that I blew it. This was my one chance to have a family, the thing I always wanted. It seemed like instead of getting that stamp of approval, I was wearing the scarlet letter, the thing that said, damaged goods. Resisting Abuse Ingrid: What I had to wade through in terms of that pain and shame was enormous, and yet it was one of the first things that really freed me from narcissistic abuse. Anne: Yeah, we heal so much through choosing ourselves. Around here, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I just call it resisting. Because you were thinking, if I do what he says, I don’t want to do this. But if I agree, if I hand over my credit card right now, maybe it will make it better. This is the only thing to do to get out of the situation in that moment. It is a form of resistance, because you’re thinking, this is what I need to do to get this over with. Or, this is how I work through this. Because we don’t have a framework for, Oh, I just walk out of the jewelry store. No one’s given us that framework for a solution. Because that doesn’t feel safe either. Because he might get angry, there might be all sorts of other consequences. Ingrid: That’s right. Anne: So it’s a way to resist abuse. Understanding that victims are doing the best they can with what they have. And also with the level of education about abuse they have at the time. Ingrid: Yeah, these aren’t conscious at all. It’s the body’s instinctual response to safety. It’s the last house on the block. Because if you can’t fight back, if you can’t run, guess what? Appeasing and pleasing is resistance, it is an adaptive response. To be in, and listen, it’s not just abusive, any marginalized community, any sort of power structure where someone has power over you. It’s a highly adaptive response to narcissistic abuse in a marriage. Reclaiming Self-Worth Ingrid: I am a smart person, right? I asked for help, so the other reason I think it’s important for me to address it as a trauma response. Because what that means in terms of my healing is the nervous system. It’s not going and sitting on a couch and talking about it forever. That in fact kept me stuck. It’s working with a part of the brain that was offline. We need to work with solutions that work with the body when it comes to trauma. It’s why actually I don’t like the words, people pleasing or control. My motivations were never to please, and they were never to control. Anne: Exactly. Ingrid: I was trying to stay safe in an unsafe situation. I was trying to survive. Of course, boundaries made sense intellectually. Of course, I can understand those things. They were not available in my body. It’s another layer of gaslighting essentially because it’s telling me, oh, it’s so easy and what’s the big deal? And it must be you. It must be you. This idea that we are intrinsically broken, and I believe we are beyond not broken. It’s a genius adaptation. I look at the ways we have threaded the needle of safety in the trickiest of environments. And I go, that is brilliant. There’s a literal brilliance to it. And so my hope is that we can take back the brilliance and genius adaptation and hold onto that. Even as I say those words, I feel like self-esteem is rushing into my body. Narcissistic abuse in marriage robs you of so much. I go, I am not broken. I am brilliant. And I don’t want to live in a chronic trauma response anymore. Sign Of Narcissistic Abuse: Future Faking In Relationships Ingrid: We are meant to have more freedom and flexibility. So we have to start with taking the shame and stigma out of experiences where we’re literally just surviving. The environments in which we live. Anne: And for that reason, I like saying resisting because you were doing something active to protect yourself. It was the best thing you knew at the time. You were doing it instinctively. Think about how smart and powerful, and how awesome you’ve always been. You mentioned future faking. I realized I’ve never done an episode about future faking or gone into depth about it. Can we go there for a second? Ingrid: The way I experienced it. Despite my ex-husband’s literal inability to show up for this life, he talked such a good game. Like, you want to go to Italy, we’re going to go to Italy. Let’s start saving for Italy now, he said. Let’s open a savings account where we just put money in for this trip to Italy. And I’m like another form of financial exploitation. But it’s also an aspect of this future faking. We’re going to do all these amazing things. It’s presenting your hopes and dreams and literally saying it out loud. It feels so tangible. Someone to meet us, validate us, to say, yes, we’re going to do this together. It’s so compelling. It was to me. And even though he didn’t bring much to the marriage, it hooked me. It’s another aspect of sometimes hoovering even, right? Of saying all the things you want to hear to get you back into the relationship. Breaking Free From Emotional Abuse Ingrid: It’s going to be different. I’m doing all these things. And he did that too, like I’m going to get sober. And I went to a meeting. I went and took an application. And they were one-time events that he did just enough to show me. Similar to opening the savings account. It’s I’m going to tell you, in fact, that you can expect all these things to happen. And then I’m not going to do anything other than this little thing to get you to change your mind. Anne: Abusers are transactional. Like a machine, and their words are like quarters. So he thinks all I need to do is put this quarter in. I say, Hey, let’s go to Italy. That’s a tactic of narcissistic abuse. I put this in, and then beep boop out comes what I want her to do. They don’t see us as human people. More of this is a transaction, and I say this, and I get this back. Ingrid: I would even say calling it a quarter is giving it too much credit. I mean, it’s like a wooden nickel. It’s all smoke and mirrors. It’s part of what also creates, you know, the fog of emotional abuse. You can’t tell what’s real. I had to stop listening to what my stepdad said happened, what my mom wanted to believe happened, what my ex husband said he was doing or going to do. Almost at any cost, I had to prioritize my own experience, my own feelings over anybody else. Anne: You’re very brave. You did it! Ingrid: Yeah, I feel like my whole life has been trying to wrestle me back. And I’m mostly just grateful that I don’t live there now. Finding A Healthy Relationship Ingrid: I don’t question my worth. I question my sanity. I know what I know. And I know what a reciprocal relationship feels like. I have a husband who has never lied to me. And you talk to people who don’t have experience of abuse. And they’re like, that’s just normal. Of course, you should expect that, and guess what? I never had a relationship where I could say that before. I never knew what that felt like in my body. In my first marriage, the closer we got to the altar, the more I was like, I don’t know that I’m doing the right thing. And then I could lean on, this is what happens, it’s cold feet. I look back and I go, that was not cold feet, that was wisdom bubbling up to the surface. And I don’t know that every “healthy marriage” isn’t hard. But I can tell you the contrast is remarkable in my personal experience, it’s night and day. And I will also say the difference in how it felt when we met was remarkably different. I was so used to the feeling of someone having power over me. And I think this is common. We can mistake that unsettled feeling of nervous system dysregulation for butterflies. It’s so exciting, right? I genuinely thought that was healthy chemistry. I was like, Oh, I got that feeling. Now I know that’s a dysregulated nervous system. So when I met my now husband, who was so kind, I felt so at ease in his presence. I walked away and I was like, he would probably be a great friend. And I just assumed there would be nothing romantic. Because I didn’t have that old like fireworks, crazy chaos thing. Marriage Isn’t Supposed To Be Hard: Navigating Challenges Together Without Abuse Ingrid: And over time. I got to see, this is what it feels like to be seen and respected. And to not feel like someone has power over me. But that we’re literally building something together. And it’s what it’s felt like this entire time. I will say that does not mean there haven’t been hard times. We became parents, and parenting brings up all kinds of stuff. Like, how will we pay that bill or navigate these different things? It’s going to kick some dust up, life is still in session. But he’s my person that I can turn to when the dust gets kicked up. He’s not kicking the dust up in my face and going, what’s the matter with you? So we go through the hard times together, even when that means maybe I’m triggered and dysregulated. And I’m having a hard time. And he can say a genuine, can you take care of yourself? Like, because I’m going to take care of myself and come back. And then we’re going to have a conversation where I’m in my right mind. Anne: But at no point, I’m guessing, during that time, did he suggest you were crazy. Ingrid: Never, no, of course not. Yeah, very different. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop Anne: I talk so much about the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. You can get more information by clicking the link. Living Free is designed to help you regulate your nervous system through thought strategies.So that you can actually implement communication and boundary strategies to protect yourself. And that piece of the puzzle is so important. The workshop helps teach women those strategies, and then our coaches help women actually implement them. Ingrid: A hundred percent, it’s a process, and it’s not always graceful. It’s not always linear. But if you are engaged in it, that is the bravest, hardest, but also most rewarding thing we can ever do. It’s worth it. Anne: It’s worth it, and you’re worth it. Thank you so much, Ingrid, for spending the time to talk with me today. Ingrid: My pleasure. Thank you so much.

Transcribed - Published: 12 August 2025

One of the first and most powerful steps in understanding how to recover after being cheated on is naming what’s actually happening. Many women don’t have the words at first. Lies, secrecy, and deceit separate you from your own sense of reality, leaving you to wonder: Is it me? Am I overreacting? Is this normal? That confusion is part of betrayal trauma. The truth is, betrayal trauma is real, and naming it doesn’t make the pain bigger, it validates it. If you’re wondering how to recover after being cheated on, Shelly’s story proves you’re not alone, and healing is possible. Support your healing with Betrayal Trauma Recovery’s Group Sessions. This episode follows Shelly’s Story Part 1: What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again? Part 2: How To Recover After Being Cheated On (THIS EPISODE) 7 Things Every Woman Should Know About How to Recover After Being Cheated On Are you trying to recover after your husband cheated on you? If he cheats on you, his lies, secrecy and deceit separate you from your own sense of reality. Here are seven things women need to know about this. 1. Recovery begins with identification. Betrayal trauma is what you’re experiencing. Naming it helps connect the dots between what happened and how it affected you. 2. Intimate lies are domestic abuse. The harm doesn’t start once you find out about his cheating. It begins when he starts deceiving you. Recovery begins with accepting this truth. 3. Your body will tell you the truth. Many women experiencing betrayal trauma have physical symptoms like insomnia, stomach issues, chronic pain. Your body always resists, even if your mind doesn’t quite understand what’s happening. 4. Recovery isn’t about him even though the need to recover is entirely about him. Recovery takes knowing how to focus on our own emotional safety.  Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out if you are a victim. 5. Self-compassion is a turning point. Recovery means treating yourself like you would treat a friend. 6. Ignore bad advice. People might tell you to just move on or don’t give away your power. That’s not helpful if you’re trying to heal from this type of trauma. 7. The right support makes recovery from this type of trauma possible. It is important to find a support group where women understand what you’re going through because they’ve been through it too. Transcript: How To Recover After Being Cheated On Anne: I have Shelly, a member of our community, back on today’s episode. I interviewed her six months ago. I asked her to come back and check in. And let me know how she’s doing now. Welcome back, Shelly. Shelly: So we’re at about a year and a half now since the initial D-Day and it’s still difficult, but we’re still together. We’re still working through things. I’ve had no more D-Days since the four or five months of D-Days I had. Nothing new has come to light. But it’s hard. That’s sort of where I am at the moment. Anne: Will you talk about any epiphanies that you’ve had as you’ve been learning how to recover after being cheated on. Shelly: There’s been a lot of deepening in my understanding of objectification, as a social issue, and the conditioning everywhere. Society subjects men and women to that conditioning. How human souls are made into objects and literally sold for the purpose of use in a sexual way. And it’s dark. Last time, I gave you a bit of a backstory. There’s a long line of betrayal trauma history in my life, being born into that. And for me, understanding my own power and choice has been freeing. Eighteen Months Into Healing: What Recovery After Being Cheated On Looks Like Anne: Like how did you see it before and how are you seeing it now? Shelly: So listening to our original podcast the emotions I felt. When I was going back, to when I was young, and then when I was in an abusive relationship. It wasn’t a relationship. I was a victim of abuse in my teens with a much older man. The emotions I felt then were quite powerless. Just listening to that, it felt powerless. Whereas when I fast forward to now. I can feel there’s a difference. Like, I have choice. I didn’t realize that I had choice then. Like I didn’t understand it. I wouldn’t say naive, because I wouldn’t understand because I was so young and being coerced in such a horrific way, that I didn’t see anything beyond that. Whereas now my adult self understands all this stuff. And actually, through everything I’ve listened to on your podcast and understanding that betrayal is abuse. I feel the foundation now that I didn’t have before, an understanding of what betrayal trauma is, where I’m standing in a place of power and knowing how to recover after being cheated on. I’m in a different space. I felt that, just listening through my own story in the podcast that we did before. Anne: For our listeners, we recorded this the same day her previous episode aired. So she listened to it and now we’re talking. It’s a different type of experience than talking with a coach, therapist or group session. Because you’re listening to yourself from the outside in a way that you wouldn’t normally. Can you talk about your experience as you listened to yourself share your story on the podcast. Listening to Yourself: A Surprising Step in How to Recover After Being Cheated On Anne: Do you feel like it enabled you to feel for yourself in a way that you hadn’t before? Shelly: I do actually, because I disconnected so much. I had a strong sense of dissociation before. And that has changed. I feel it is important, because that’s reconnecting to the self. Where the dissociation was before, it was like someone else’s life that I recounted or told a story about somebody else’s life or a different lifetime. It didn’t feel connected to me. So having that connection back and feeling those emotions for my own story is important. In being whole, and rebuilding myself, it was helpful. I felt really emotional. I felt the heartbreak for myself. And I have empathy for myself, which is a strange concept. I feel for myself, my own story. I was able to release it. Anne: I imagine it will take you a while to process hearing your own story. It’s not like you’re gonna have all the epiphanies all at once. It will happen over time. But I think it’s beneficial for women to hear themselves and recognize how human they are. If they heard someone else share the story, how much compassion they would feel for that person, and love and lack of judgment. Shelly: Exactly. Anne: It might be something they’ve never experienced for themselves before, partially due to all the abuse they experienced. The abuse in and of itself separates us from ourselves. That’s how abusers manipulate their victims. Abusers do not want us to process it in a way that we can feel or understand it. Why Seeing Things As They Really Are helps and shows how to recover After Being Cheated On Shelly: Yeah, they disempower you, so you haven’t got the power to step out of it, change it, or even see it. Having that compassion for yourself and hearing it as if you are listening to a friend is huge. I’ve always struggled with self-love. I completely understand why now, because it’s been throughout my entire life. Hearing that if I was sitting with a friend and told me my story, I would have nothing but love for her. What I’m dealing with right now is that I’m heavily processing the current stuff with my current partner all the time, which has such a huge impact on me every day. Things still trigger me. There are still moments where it feels overwhelmingly hard. Anne: In the past, you didn’t understand what was happening to you, so processing it in real time was not available to you in any way, shape or form. But processing your situation now that you have the information in real time, you can talk to other women. You went to BTR group sessions. You can process it, which makes a difference. Shelly: Yeah, that’s definitely part of it. I’m also aware of positive coping mechanisms that I’m doing. There’s a general sense of awareness I wouldn’t have had before. Anne: Once you’re aware, you can start looking at it more objectively in terms of not being manipulated like we were before. Shelly: Yeah. Anne: Which helps us make better decisions in the long run. It takes a minute to figure out how we feel and what we wanna do. We’re just a lot more capable of making decisions that are in our best interest when we have this type of information. It’s just impossible without it. Embracing the Hard Truth that Sets You Free: His Cheating Isn’t About You Shelly: Yeah, learning how to recover after being cheated on is like being in a dark room with a blindfold on and then suddenly walking out into the light and seeing everything for what it actually is. Anne: How has that felt? Being able to see things for what they really are? Shelly: It’s liberating. I’m glad that I see now, but it’s painful process. I wouldn’t change it. Anne: I think some women, and I was one of them, want to unsee it a little bit, ’cause it is so painful. But once you see it, you can’t unsee it. And so there isn’t anywhere to go but forward. Shelly: Yeah, I understand wishing to unsee it. I can totally get that, because it’s such a traumatic thing to go through. I’m glad I’m not living in the dark anymore. I’m glad I’m not living in an illusion of this perfect fairytale in my head. I would never want anyone to go through this. But I’m glad that I’m now living informed as to who I’m with and where I am. Anne: The Living Free Workshop intends to help women see the truth. Shelly: Yeah. Anne: It doesn’t give any instructions in terms of like pack a bag and move out. Nothing like that. It’s more safety principles and how to get enough space to observe. Shelly: Yes, I loved the group sessions. Feeling that connection with people, seeing the same faces, feeling familiar with the coach. Each coach had a different sort of energy and beauty about the way they held the space. I found that helpful. I remember in one of my shares talking about how this has affected me and my self perception, my physical self perception. Getting Beauty treatments to feel better physically Shelly: I basically started to starve myself. Because all the women he was looking at. He disclosed they were all thinner than me. Some of them were younger than me. Some of them were actually older than me. But I started to really look at myself. I had very low self-esteem anyway, but this completely smashed any esteem I had about myself. And getting beauty treatments, anything that I could just to feel better physically. And in this one particular group, I shared that. Many of the women started to cry and could completely understand, completely resonated with what I was saying. I found that so devastatingly sad that this is one of the consequences of their behavior. Their choices impact the way we internalize, or think, we think it’s because of us. It all boils down to that belief, I’m not enough. Having that connection, not feeling alone, and not feeling like I’m the only one doing this. It was powerful, but equally heartbreaking. Actually across the world, this is something that is happening to women after experiencing something like that. Anne: I think it brings it home that it’s not about us. To see that so many women have been exploited in that way, manipulated in that way, is so heartbreaking to realize how systemic it is. Shelly: Yeah, my partner, I remember having a conversation with him. “I cannot understand how you could look into my eyes at the end of the day, knowing that you’d done that.” He said, “I just thought, what she doesn’t know won’t hurt her.” Keeping secrets is the root of the pain in between. The damage that’s caused in a relationship, not having transparency. Secrecy is Abuse: how to Recover after Being Cheated On Shelly: That as soon as you’re doing something that you know will hurt your partner, you’re already hurting them. Anne: Right. Shelly: Whether they know it or not. Anne: And just the absolute lack of understanding that not giving your partner a choice. Using deceit is abuse. It’s control, it’s harmful, and you’re already hurting her if you are not giving her a choice in her own life. Shelly: Exactly, I did not know who I was with. I had the image of who I thought he was. Who he was saying he was. I did not know the person I was with, and I didn’t have free choice in that. Anne: Exactly, and for any man to think that sounds okay is horrifying. I guess there could be women who feel this way, but I don’t know of any woman at BTR who would feel comfortable, thinking her husband didn’t know. Unless it was for her own safety, saving some money, as in classic domestic abuse escape strategies. Women in general who are victims of abuse, before they understand they are, would feel bad, thinking their husband didn’t know something he needed to know. I think that’s why it’s just so incomprehensible to us that somebody would’ve made these choices for us and completely disrespected us in this way. Shelly: It’s dishonoring someone’s soul that you’re professing to love. That is not love. It’s dishonoring me. Betraying me. There were lies about other things. There were lies about money. It’s not honoring the person you love. And I can’t consolidate those two things in my head, or in my heart and that was a part of learning how to recover after being cheated on. My mind is still on high alert Shelly: Because if I love someone, then I’m gonna honor them by not doing things that hurt them. I won’t do that. Anne: I’m so sorry about everything you’re going through. The time you’re in right now is so difficult, trying to sort out what to do next. And learn how to recover after being cheated on. Shelly: Yeah, I’m still on high alert a lot of the time, which is exhausting. I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia. And I’d rid myself of constant pain and fatigue, and lived my life in a happy space. So since all this came out, all the symptoms of Fibromyalgia flared back up again. If anything else came to light, that would be it. I couldn’t physically do it or emotionally stay within the relationship. Because I have nothing more that I can possibly give beyond what I’ve already given, beyond what I’m giving now. I can’t just relax. Anne: That’s absolutely understandable. Shelly: It’s logical, isn’t it? If someone can spend so many years lying to you. There’s always a chance they’re going to do that again. I still am not in a place where I can say I fully trust him. My mind is still trying to protect me, questioning, why won’t my husband fight for our marriage? I’m still on high alert, and I don’t know however long it takes or what that’s gonna look like to heal. Anne: I’m interested in seeing what you think of Living Free, because the intent was to help women feel they don’t have to work so hard. ‘Cause I’m hearing that in your voice. This exhaustion, of the process of seeing if he’s gonna make the right decisions. The Living Free Workshop is intended to reduce women’s burden Anne: So the Living Free Workshop is intended to reduce that burden. And help women observe, so that the burden is all on him and not on us. Shelly: I definitely feel it. I’m definitely carrying it. Anne: So the strategy of Living Free is learning to give ourselves enough space. So that we can live our lives, be peaceful, happy and observe. It teaches how to recover after being cheated on. And not carry the weight of it. If you want to come back and share your feedback. Shelly: I very much would like to do that. Anne: I will tell you a little bit about it. So it doesn’t overwhelm you. The workbook comes with it. You can print it, I recommend women buy it on Amazon. I wanted to see the two page spread layout. Which you don’t get to see if you print it on your own printer. But anyway, the Living Free Workshop is 55 lessons. They’re very short videos. Most of them are three minutes, and the shortest one is 30 seconds. So it’s tiny three minute increments to process it. The longest video is six minutes long. There’s only one that’s that long. There’s a question underneath, and if you don’t wanna answer it, you can just push an X and push enter and go to the next thing. If you don’t wanna fill out the workbook, you don’t have to fill out the workbook, but it is good to have it in front of you, sitting there, so at least you can see what I’m talking about. So even if you’re not gonna fill it out, just having it in front of you helps. Meditations help regulate your nervous system and show how to recover after being cheated on Anne: I have a master’s degree in education. I set it up like that. So women have time to process how to recover after being cheated on in between each one. Especially with the self-esteem issues, to remove the manipulation and negative things that we’ve absorbed through their abuse and replace it with truth. Like, you’re beautiful, you’re capable. Right now might be a great time for the Meditations to regulate your nervous system to help you feel more peaceful and centered. That’s what the Meditations do to help women who, like a lot of women, can’t sleep. They can’t stop thinking about it, that sort of thing. So to help get all that out. I wrote them for myself. Because talking about stuff at some point wasn’t that helpful for me. I talked about it so much. So I wrote those meditations to help me, so that I could get all the stuff out without having to talk about it. ‘Cause I talk about this all day long, every single day, and I have for 10 years. So there had to have been something different for me. I’d say if you do the Meditations and then schedule the next interview, that way it can give you some time to think about, did it help? Shelly: Yeah, definitely. You need to get this stuff out. That’s important. But I also think there is a point in your post traumatic growth where you have to go inward. Going in is also an important part of the healing process too. So yeah, I appreciate the access to those. It’s been crazy, it feels divine. Anne: Totally. Thank you so much and I look forward to talking to you again soon. Shelly: Yeah, thank you so much.

Transcribed - Published: 30 July 2025

Exploitative material isn’t entertainment, it’s the commercialization of women’s bodies. It’s harmful to everyone. If your husband is on phone all the time, it’s important to know, that what he’s doing on his phone really matters. If it seems like your husband is on his phone all the time and cares more about what’s on his phone than he does about you, you need support. Attend one of our live, daily Group Sessions TODAY. Exploitative Material Is Harmful To Women If he’s using exploitative materials on his phone, there are the real implications of his actions. If your husband is on the phone so much that he’s ignoring you or dismissing you or not helping with the family, it’s possible that there’s more going on that meets the eye. His attitudes and choices may actually be emotional abuse. To find out if he is using any of these 19 emotional abuse tactics, take our free emotional abuse test Transcript: Husband is On Phone All The Time? Anne: I have Laila Mickelwaite on today’s episode. She has appeared on the podcast before to talk about her nonprofit, Justice Defense Fund, and how they combat the exploitation industry, which victimizes women and children through material often uploaded and viewed by the victims’ husbands or their groomers. Welcome, Laila. Laila: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you. Anne: I appreciate you. You have done so much in such a short amount of time. And I’m hopeful this will help bring more awareness to women about the possible implications if your husband is on the phone all the time using exploitative material. Let’s start with your new book called Takedown. Laila: Yes, so excited to finally have that out after years of writing. The reason I wanted to write this book was to get the truth out about P**nhub and its parent company. It has a monopoly on the global industry. I want to get the truth about what has happened to so many victims on the public record, to educate people, activate them, inspire them, and ultimately get more people informed and engaged in the fight for justice, not only against P##nhub. MindGeek, was recently renamed ILO to try to distance themselves from their toxic image. I really want to help take down and, most importantly, prevent illegal content from distribution on user generated sites. So that’s why I wrote the book. And one hundred percent of all proceeds from the sale of the book go to the Justice Defense Fund. Global Reach & Petitioning for Justice Laila: To help this cause, the fight for justice, to hold mega abusers accountable, and to really bring needed closure and restitution to victims. So that’s the purpose. You can go to takedownbook.com and there you can purchase the book at really any major online retailer. Penguin Random House publishes it, so you can find audiobook or ebook or hardcover. You can find it in Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, and the United States. And someone is translating it into Chinese, but yeah, takedownbook.com and there you can also sign the petition. Over 2 million people signed the petition to shut down P##hub and hold its executives accountable from every country in the world. Implications of what he’s doing on his phone Laila: This isn’t only for exploited children. Their lives are completely shattered because of the distribution of their trauma on P**hub and its sister sites. But also adult victims, victims assaulted and trafficked. Also victims who have consensually recorded videos and then had it non-consensually distributed, which is very traumatic for them. Anne: Yeah. It is. We have women in our community who have had that happen, and it’s been horrific. Then they find out their husband was on the phone all the time watching to see if his non-consensual videos got the views on YouTube. It’s awful Laila: And we know that according to surveys, victims of what we call image-based abuse have almost a 50 percent rate of suicidal ideation. So it’s very traumatizing. What happens is when the videos are uploaded, they become the immortalization of trauma. People download them and then upload again and again. They understand that this will happen in perpetuity for the rest of their lives. They can’t escape it, and so this is horrific. It was happening en masse on the world’s most popular and trafficked site. When the fight began at the beginning of 2020, just for context, it was the largest and most popular site. But by the end of the Corona virus pandemic, which was in full swing, they had actually become the fifth most trafficked website. So the fifth most visited website across the entire internet had 170 million visits per day, 62 billion visits per year, and enough content uploaded every year, every 12 months, that it would take 169 years to watch if you put those videos back to back. MindGeek’s Monopoly Laila: Owned by a parent company called MindGeek, who with a $362 million loan had rolled up the industry, owning most of the world’s most popular sites and brands. So, what I discovered at the beginning of February 2020, this is about 15 years in the fight against trafficking. And I’m paying attention to the headlines. I’m looking and investigating the industry and its ties to trafficking and abuse. And I see some really concerning headlines. At the end of 2019, one of them was a 15 year old girl missing for a year. They found her when a user tipped off her distraught mother. He recognized her daughter on the site. She was assaulted in 58 videos sold for profit. And then the Sunday Times had done an investigation. They found dozens of illegal videos within minutes, even children as young as three years old. And then, like I said, it’s not just children, but also adults. A woman named Nicole Adamando’s partner from New York tortured and assaulted her. He filmed the abuse and uploaded it. She killed him in self-defense but was then sentenced to life in prison and separated from her two young children.. These are just horrifying headlines. That happened at the end of 2019. As an advocate against abuse and trafficking, of course, these arrested my attention. I had a haunting question that came to mind. The Fight for Accountability: When What’s on his phone hurts people Laila: And that was how in the world did this abuse end up on P**hub? And then, I discovered by testing the upload system, what millions of people already knew, and that was all it took to upload. And this is the reason why the site became infested with illegal content for multiple reasons. The primary reason was that they allowed unlimited upload of user generated images. Anyone with an mobile phone could film a video anywhere in the world and upload it using just an email address. The platform did not check IDs to verify whether the person in the video was a child, underage teen, or tween. It did not verify consent to ensure the video did not involve an assault or trafficking victim. In under 10 minutes, anyone could upload a video to the site, which led to the platform becoming infested with videos of real crimes. And that is how all this began, this fight to hold them accountable for what has happened. Now that has destroyed so many victims’ lives. Anne: Thank you. Thank you so much. Like, you didn’t turn away, you went toward it. And that is like so brave. Your work and the way you’re helping women understand the magnitude of this issue, can’t be underestimated. So thank you. This is why it is so important that we are all more aware. So if a husband is on the phone all the time, you’re saying there’s a real possibility he may be supporting this exploitative industry. Since this effects everyone, what can we do to help.] Community Support: A husband is on phone all the time? Laila: I would just say thank you to everybody who’s been part of this movement. Because it certainly hasn’t been a one-woman fight. I took to Twitter using the hashtag trafficking hub after making that discovery. Everybody who cared caused it. Everybody who saw the injustice and didn’t look away, who shared, who signed. Who even took to the streets, week after week with signs protesting. In front of the MindGeek headquarters in Montreal, LA, London, South Africa and all over the world. People who joined this fight in a meaningful way. Of the hundreds of survivors who came forward to powerfully tell their stories and raise their voices, even though they were attacked. And to the journalists, lawmakers, and lawyers, so many people who came together to take on this behemoth of abuse. So from where I sit, I am so grateful to many people who listen to the betrayal trauma podcast, who have signed the petition, who’ve been a part of this. Without all of us coming together, this definitely wouldn’t have been possible. Anne: That’s how we feel about the work we do here. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery we’re educating women about what to look for, and we’re building community support in our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. Through betrayal Instagram posts and betrayal trauma videos.  We reach women, especially if they’re like, “Why is my husband on the phone all the time? Something feels off.” So our focus is helping women feel safe and make progress toward a peaceful life within their own home. But in terms of your work can you share the progress that’s been made since we talked last? The Movement Laila: Yes, huge strides, we still have a ways to go. The fight’s not over, but the story is told in the book Takedown. I wrote it in first person present tense. It starts on the night when I’m testing the upload system, and making this discovery that the site is what I call a crime scene. Not a site, a crime scene. I launched the Trafficking Hub hashtag and launched the petition that started to go viral. Survivors are coming forward daily. Whistleblowers from the company are coming forward and sharing internal documents and all the ways this company operates that intentionally enable the global distribution and monetization of crime. They’re peeling back the onion layers of complicity of owners. Credit Card Company Ties: is your husband paying for exploitative material on his phone? Anne: Yeah, if he’s on the phone all the time looking at this stuff, how is he paying for it? Laila: We fought the credit card companies so hard for years. Finally, in 2022, they cut them off once and for all. Discover MasterCard, Visa, join PayPal, cut all ties with the site. Because one consideration drives every decision, that’s profit. What will make them the most profit? The credit card companies cutting ties was the worst thing that could have happened to them. Over the last four and a half years, they have removed 91 percent of the entire website. They reduced their content from 56 million pieces in 2020 to 5.2 million today. The Thanks to the participation of so many people, Financial Times called this probably the biggest takedown of content in internet history. Because these were unverified videos, meaning they had no idea if they were children, teens, victims of assault, trafficking, or image based abuse. They had no clue. And so many of them were criminal content. And so they were forced to take down that much of the site. The CEO and the COO were forced to resign. The secret majority shareholder of the company, who had been hiding his identity from the public for years, was found. And he was exposed and located. And today he’s being sued by dozens of victims. Nearly 300 victims are suing ****hub and its parent company in 25 lawsuits, including multiple certified class actions for tens of thousands of child victims. The Future Goals for justice Laila: And the U.S. federal government has criminally charged them for intentionally profiting from trafficking. And sold as a distressed asset to a disgustingly named private equity firm. It was hastily concocted, and they named themselves Ethical Capital Partners, but this is what’s happened so far. And we hope to see full justice, meaning victims are provided the restitution, that we see full criminal prosecution. Ultimately, we’d like to see them shut down completely to send a message to others that not only bring justice to victims. But to send a message to anyone who would operate like them, that this impunity, this exploitation for profit, will just not be tolerated. And hopefully that can deter future abusers. Because if a husband is on the phone all the time using pornography, it indicates he’s involved with the abuse of these women. As a result of all of this, what we really want to see. We want to see agent consent verification policies for all user generated sites. To prevent this from happening in the future. They’ve refused to do it for so many years. They set up the business model to profit from unrestricted amounts of content. Because the way they make money on the site is by selling advertising impressions. So on this site alone, they were selling 4. 6 billion ad impressions on the site every day. And in order to sell that many ad impressions on the site, they have to have massive amounts of traffic coming to the site. And in order to have massive amounts of traffic, they have to have inventory to show up in Google to drive those results. So they have to have so much content in order to drive that traffic. verifying indentities Laila: And so they don’t want to limit content or any friction in uploading. They want it free for all. Upload whatever you want. They didn’t care what is being uploaded. They just wanted videos, which actually were crime scene videos. So that’s why they resisted for so long until even September of 2024, after all this happened. They finally said, and we will have to see what’s going to happen if they’re actually going to do it properly. But they said they’ll start to verify the ID of the individuals in new videos uploaded to the site. But they still have to account for 5 million videos uploaded, without verifying who’s in them and whether they consented to that being uploaded. So we’re demanding the rest come down. Anne: Wow, sorry, it’s so intense. That anyone could be educated about this even a little bit and say that money is more important than a victim’s emotional, and psychological safety is insane. It’s like shocking. The final step in this true crime story is to legally and financially hold the founders accountable. So that others don’t replicate this business model. And then I have a follow up question about the new buyers. Laila: Ethical Capital Partners, yeah, the new owners. One of the things that’s so important in this fight, and I’m so proud of, is the survivors who courageously came forward. To personally sue by name, not just the corporation, but the individual owners. And I’ll just share the story of one particular survivor who has just led the charge on doing this. One Survivor’s Story Laila: And her name is Serena, and she was an innocent 14 year old from Bakersfield, California. Who had videos of her abuse uploaded again and again. They had a download button on every video, so anybody could possess these videos on their devices. And then upload them again and again to the internet. She would beg them to take these videos down. And if they would even answer her, you know, most of the time they would ignore her, she said. But then if they answered, they would hassle her to prove she was a victim, prove she was underage in the videos. And even if she could get them down, they would just go up again. And this sent her on a spiral of trauma and despair. She dropped out of school because she was being bullied. And she got addicted to drugs to numb the pain. She tried to kill herself multiple times. And then wound up homeless, living out of a car. But today, Serena has told her story, not only that, but she sued. Also its owners individually, the CEO, the COO, the secret majority shareholder exposed. Not only that, she’s also suing Visa for their participation in all this, for their processing of her criminal abuse. This is because if a husband is on phone all the time using pornography, he’s abusing these victims too. And she’s suing the hedge funds that gave MindGeek the money to have their business in the first place. Colbeck Capital, Redwood Capital, and dozens of survivors are doing the same, suing the individual owners. I think that is so important. It sends a message to those who make the decisions. You can’t hide behind a corporate veil. You can’t just shield yourself with a corporation. New Name & New Man In Charge doesn’t solve the problem Laila: That these decisions that you enact, because at the end of the day, these are policies that come from the top. That they will be personally responsible for that. And I think when that happens, it will create a huge deterrent effect. Where the owners of these companies will be afraid to make those same decisions because they will know. That they are not immune from accountability. So I think that is so important. And with the new owners, they’ve called themselves Ethical Capital to try to distance themselves and whitewash history. And they could name themselves something else and maybe try to get people to forget. But the victims will never forget what happened to them. They’ll live with that for the rest of their lives. And they’re currently fighting for justice, even against the new owners. And one thing that’s disturbing to know is that the new face of the company is a man named Solomon Friedman. He’s a criminal defense attorney and has spent his career defending criminals. Time Magazine reported he has had significant experience defending criminals and those who are abusers. He wants to do the same for this company. However, we’re going to keep fighting to ensure the truth is told. And even to this day, like I said, there’s unverified content on the site. And there are illegal videos still up, even after all this happened. So we’re just going to keep sharing the truth. Anne: Yeah. Because maybe women don’t know that if there husband is on the phone all the time using this exploitative materials they’re creating demand for these videos. With the credit card companies cutting off people’s ability to use credit cards on these sites. Are people using crypto now? Using Crypto Currency: what your husband may be using to pay for exploitative material on his phone Laila: Yes, they can use crypto, so they can still transact, unfortunately. When it was sold to the new owners, was sold as a distressed asset because they lost their credit card companies. Yes, they still can transact using crypto. Anne: It just goes more and more criminal, more underground. I’m not gonna argue that going underground is good for it, right? Less people will use it. If a husband is on the phone all the time using it, it victimizes these women. Laila: True, it’s so interesting. You said that, because that’s what I hear from victims themselves. They say the most traumatizing part of having these videos distributed is that they’re distributed on the surface web. Where Google crawls. Some of these victims have had their names attached to the videos, their school name. Their town where just anybody can find them. So when they go to the grocery store, they’re standing in line wondering who has seen my assault video? Because it is on the mainstream, most popular sites in the world, accessible to anyone. And like you said, even accessible to children, which is so horrifying to consider. That any child can click a few buttons on a device could end up on the home page. Where there have been criminal videos, even on the home page itself, side by side by real assault videos. And having a child be exposed to that trauma as their introduction to sexuality, as their education is so frightening. Anne: That’s abuse. Laila: It is abuse. It’s a form of abuse. I talk about the need to protect children on both sides of the screen from viewing this content and also being in the content. Age Verification Laws Laila: And I’m so encouraged by this wave of momentum that we’ve seen recently, where states are starting to pass age verification laws for users. It’s interesting, because they have aggressively opposed age verification for users. And they have actually shut themselves down in states that have enacted age verification. Or made them liable when a child views their site. So in some cases, states have said, parents could sue the company for not having age verification in place. And in that case, they’ve shut themselves down because they don’t want to lose the money. They don’t want to pay. And we even have the senior community manager is on the record saying what the real reason is. They cite like privacy concerns, this is a privacy and free speech issue. When the senior community manager said this costs us money. And that it would basically be devastating to their revenue. And so, that just shows it’s like this in every case. They’re putting profit before the safety of people. In this case, the safety of children, not to have to witness a crime. Anne: I think Utah passed that. But still, if a husband is on phone all the time using exploitative material, it funds this revenue. The Supreme Court & Age Verification Laila: Yeah, there are a number of states, Alabama did and Texas. It’s actually going to the Supreme Court, because in Texas they passed the law, and then they refused to comply. They were sued by the state of Texas. Then they countersued to stop the law from being enacted, they lost. And then they appealed, and then they lost. And now they’re protesting it. So it was a free speech coalition. They was one of the plaintiffs in the case to appeal, and then it’s going to be heard at the Supreme Court. Laila: I think the date is January 15. And so they’ll consider whether this is constitutional to enact age verification for users of these kind of sites. Anne: Are any senators or anyone consistently voting against these type of bills? voting for safety over profit Laila: I don’t have anyone voting against these types of bills. What I’ve seen is mostly unanimous support from both sides. Bipartisan support, because the ones opposed to this are the industry people. Because it costs them money. It costs them traffic. And the financial incentive there is to oppose it. But anybody who has common sense, who cares about the safety of children, doesn’t want children to access the sites. And some people say we need device level verification, where that would be Apple, for example. That would instill in the device itself safety for children not to access adult sites. And then some people say, no, it should be at the website level. And I’m saying it should be both. When we are trying to implement safety when we’re driving a car. You have a seatbelt, a roll bar, an airbag, and various ways to protect. I think in this case, it’s both, and yes, do device level verification for kids to protect them. But then also require these sites to have third party age verification for users of those sites. Anne: I’m interested in seeing who starts citing free speech issues and not voting for this. If there is anybody, hopefully it will be unanimous. But if there is, I would like to call them out and have people know that this is the person who voted against this. Because like, Oh, here’s somebody who likes pedophiles. I’m interested in seeing how that shakes out. Privacy Concerns & Free Speech: does your husband have a right to view this on his phone? Laila: Yeah, and just to clarify, so there’s the age verification laws that we need to see for those accessing the videos. And then there’s the age verification we need for those in the videos. It seems like there’s even less opposition to age verification for those in the videos than the user side. Because some people say, Oh, I don’t want to give over identifying information to access this kind of site. It’s my right to access a site without having to do that. Which isn’t a great argument, because people give over identifying information to shop on Amazon, to use PayPal, to go on Airbnb. Anne: Yeah, but they don’t care if people know they bought something on Amazon. If a husband uses his phone all the time to view this material, and doesn’t want his wife to know he’s using it, he’ll lie to her. These types of exploitative men think it’s their right that nobody knows. They should access this without their wife knowing, because if their wife knows, she might be like, I’m not into this. And he wants to maintain power and control in his own home by controlling the narrative of who he is and what his character is. So he does not want his wife to find out. A husband is on phone all the time using exploitative material, funds victimization. Laila: Well, then I think those who oppose it need to be clear and honest. And say, it’s not that I care about my privacy. This is not a speech issue. This is, I don’t want anyone to know that I’m going to this site. It’s generally not a privacy issue. It’s privacy about this issue. Exposing Exploitative Men: Husband is on Phone all the time? Anne: Totally, but men with an exploitative character will never tell the truth. When a husband is on phone all the time, using pornography, exploiting women, they never say, I want to lie to my wife and live a double life, so I’m going to vote against this bill. They will never say that. They’ll always cite free speech, and say they don’t want government intervention. I don’t know what they’ll say, but they’ll never say, I want to lie to my wife about who I am. Just talking about the man who would claim free speech stuff. It’s not free speech to assault a child, so no. Laila: That’s actually true, because when we’re talking about free speech, we’re assuming these sites are distributing legal content. We know that much of the content distributed, because we have figures, victims, cases, and evidence. That a significant portion of what is on these user generated sites. Children can freely access illegal content, which is contraband. It is not an idea, an expression. It’s not any form of legal material. There’s no protection for that kind of content to be distributed. I think that’s why it’s important to make sure that we are talking about the reality of these sites. Because people, perhaps judges, and those considering these cases might have this idea that this is Playboy, right? That this is the content you might’ve seen 50 years ago or 20 years ago. But with the advent of user generated content and unrestricted uploads, so much of it is actually criminal content. That’s important for them to consider. What is the material being distributed on these sites? Protecting Victims & Updating Laws: Husband is on phone all the time? Laila: And children need to be protected from viewing. But adult victims and children need to be protected from being used. If a husband is on phone all the time using exploitative material, it produces demand for these videos. We’ve had a law in place in the U.S. since 1988 called U.S. C 2257, which traditionally governed the brick and mortar industry. We think about Exploitation Valley in L. A. and the way studios had produced it. This required them to do age verification and record keeping. And in fact, the Department of Justice could at any time call for the inspection of those documents. And if they didn’t have them, it was actually a criminal offense. However, now with this new model of free user generated distribution. They’ve just completely gone around that important regulation, so we need to update our laws. Anne: Do you know of any victim who has used material on these sites or discoveries from her husband on the phone all the time as proof in her own assault case? Not to sue, but criminally to charge her rapist or someone who coerced her? Laila: Yes, and it’s not her in the case that I’m going to cite right now. I mean, there are other cases of hers, but this is a him. There was a case of a 12 year old boy from Alabama drugged, overpowered and assaulted by a man named Rocky Shea Franklin. And he filmed the abuse, and he uploaded 23 of those videos. Using titles that indicated this was abuse of a child. They were sold, in a profit sharing relationship with the site. Police located the devices. When they went on the devices, they found he had uploaded them. Videos Used As Criminal Case Evidence: Husband is on Phone all the time? Laila: And they saw the videos on the site. They documented them as evidence they used against him. He uploaded the videos of the victim. He’s in prison for 40 years. So, yes, that has definitely happened in more than one instance, where the evidence of the crime were the videos. Anne: I wonder if more victims could do that. I know of at least a handful of women in our community who have had videos of them uploaded by their husbands. Like the woman you talked about at the beginning of this episode, and they didn’t know about it. Another’s husband is on phone all the time using pornography, victimizing women. Laila: A recent case shocked the world, horrifying people but also inspiring them with her bravery in holding her husband accountable.. Her name is Giselle Pellicott, and she’s in France. She’s over 70 years old. Anne: I did see this. It’s amazing. Laila: Yeah, I can’t believe how brave she is. And I completely understand when victims want to be Jane Doe’s because I 100% understand that. So not to say that those who are out there as Jane Doe’s are not courageous because they are. But Giselle’s out there in this public trial. She demanded it be a public trial, her husband actually drugged her. And when she was unconscious, he would recruit men to come and assault her, and he would film it. The police gathered thousands of videos that he had taken, showing how he recruited men from the community. Giselle Pellicott’s Brave Fight Laila: Lawyers, policemen, doctors, whatever, not just like guys who are just in their basements. Like you would imagine would do this, but guys who were answering these ads that he’s putting out. To come and assault his wife as she was unconscious. So anyway, she’s having a public trial, and yeah, the evidence of the crime is there. He recorded the actual abuse. And one of the things she insisted, which was shocking to many people, was to have the court actually play some of those videos. So that she could shame. Her idea was to put the shame of what happened on the abuser, not the victim. So they could sit there and be ashamed to see what they did in front of the court. Which was like wow, like people were like, I can’t believe she did that. As this story went public and gained viral traction worldwide, it inspired people everywhere. Individuals at the Justice Defense Fund have shared that similar incidents happened to them. Their husbands or partners drugged them unconscious, assaulted them, and later uploaded evidence, such as videos, to devices or websites. But this is horrifying that this is not a one off case. This is actually happening. Anne: I’ve talked with many trafficking experts, and the most likely person to traffic you is your boyfriend, right? Or even maybe your husband. Men who are intent on trafficking, groom you from the beginning. And many women end up marrying their trafficker. This is why it is so important to pay attention when a husband is on phone all the time-to know what he’s doing on there. Lover Boy Method Of Trafficking: Husband is on phone all the time? Anne: They don’t realize traffickers targeted them from the beginning. Traffickers often pose as boyfriends to groom their victims, sometimes marrying them and manipulating them into being filmed while having sex. Even if he’s your husband, and you don’t believe he’s intending to do harm, he’s still trafficking. And that may be what he’s doing when he’s on phone all the time. His online choices could harm other people. Laila: Yeah, they call it the lover boy method of trafficking. It is common and used all the time. I don’t know if anyone has heard the powerful story of Annie Lobert. She believed she loved this person, her abuser. It’s a powerful story. It does happen often, and they use it as a tactic and method, and prey on that vulnerability. And it’s horrible, but yes, many times it’s familial, someone you know and trust. Help for Victims Anne: There might be a woman listening today, who is currently experiencing this, and wondering if their boyfriend or husband is on phone all the time viewing exploitative material. If that’s the case, what would you say to her? Laila: They can go to the Justice Defense Fund website, justicedefensefund.org. And there is an intake form where you can fill out a few questions. You don’t have to talk in detail about what happened to you. You fill out a help form and connect with a trauma-informed, licensed representative who advocates at the Justice Defense Fund.. They’ll connect with you, hear your story, and help with whatever the next steps might be from there. Anne: Thank you so much for your amazing work. I appreciate you so much. Laila: Likewise, thank you so much for having me on and for this conversation, and I hope we can stay in touch.

Transcribed - Published: 29 July 2025

If you’ve discovered your husband’s lies or infidelity, will marriage counseling help? What you need to know about the best marriage counseling near me for couples. Did you know that most couples who are seeking counseling are dealing with emotional abuse? To find out if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Do We Need Marriage Counseling? Are you considering marriage counseling because you just discovered your husband’s been lying to you. If you recognize that couple therapy is contraindicated for your specific situation, but are desperate for solutions, or at least support, please recognize that your emotional safety is the priority. Rather than focusing on helping your partner recognize their harmful behavior, you can focus on establishing emotional and physical regulation and safety for yourself. Consider: Listening to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to understand more about what’s going on in this situation. Scheduling an Individual Session with a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach to determine what you need to meet your own basic needs, including sleep, hydration, and nutrition. Attending a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session to process your trauma and find strength in community It can be devastating to realize that addiction marriage counseling will likely make the situation worse. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse quiz. Transcript: Best Marriage Counseling Near Me for Couples Anne: It’s just me today. So many women wonder about marriage counseling. Women in our community often ask our coaches or ask me, “I need a good couple therapist. Who should I go to?” And that’s what I’m going to talk about today. When it comes to women seeking couple therapy or marriage counseling. These are the two scenarios I see the most often. Scenario 1: Unaware of Husband’s Actions Anne: Number one when a woman is unaware that her husband secretly uses explicit material, has affairs or hooks up with women from online dating apps. Usually the woman isn’t aware that her husband is doing this. She just knows something’s wrong in her marriage. When couples are having problems, people usually recommend marriage counseling. And because this is the most common recommendation, of course, she’s going to think that marriage counseling will help. Scenario 2: Wife’s Involvement in Therapy Anne: And number two, the wife convinces the husband to go to therapy, his own therapy. But then when she doesn’t see a difference or feels like he’s getting worse. She’ll think, well maybe if I’m involved, then I’ll see the improvements I’m looking for. When Marriage Counseling For Couples Isn’t Advised Anne: I have a master’s degree in education. And abuse educators like me don’t advise marriage counseling in any way, shape or form. Some women are confused, because the rare abuse program asks for your involvement, meaning the victims. So the therapist can get the truth about what’s going on. Why does a so-called good abuse program want the wife’s involvement? It’s because they know that the abuser will continue to lie and manipulate the therapist. They also know that if she’s not involved, he’s not going to go. Which is like the biggest red flag right there. I’ve interviewed over 300 betrayal trauma victims on my podcast and in our community. And due to their reports about the harm done to them in both scenarios. I don’t advise. Any of the following: couple therapy, marriage counseling, suggesting your husband get therapy, or being involved in his treatment in any way. Even if you have your therapist, and your abusive husband’s therapist talk to each other. I do not recommend that either. I’ll talk about what I do recommend near the end of the podcast. It’ll become really obvious why I don’t recommend marriage counseling, ever. Five Requirements For Effective Marriage Counseling Anne: As I talk about the five things that need to be true in order for marriage counseling to be effective. Requirement 1: Knowing the Truth Anne: Everyone involved needs to know the truth about the source of the conflict and agree on the source of the conflict. So in on a regular marriage counseling situation. It might be. That he likes golf and she hates golf. And that’s it. That is the source of the conflict, but he golfs a lot, and she doesn’t want him to golf a lot. And he’s like, yeah, that is the source of the conflict. I mean, the truth is out there. Requirement 2: Honest Identification of Conflict Anne: Both partners willingly, honestly, and humbly identify their contribution to the conflict without needing to be convinced of it by someone else. So no one is trying to impose their interpretation on one of the other people. And they both willingly, honestly, and humbly identify their contribution. Requirement 3: Healthy Relationship Expectations Anne: Both partners have healthy expectations for the relationship. So in regular marriage counseling, it might be that spending two nights together a week is healthy. But expecting your partner to be with you 24 hours a day, seven days a week, is not healthy. Requirement 4: Consistent Demonstration of Responsibilities Anne: Both partners have consistently demonstrated they actually do. So this is something that you’ve seen with your eyeballs, not something that they talk about. They actively actually do childcare, household chores, and relationship management independently. Without prompting or oversight from the other. So this would mean he takes care of the kids without being asked, without being managed. He can do household chores without being managed. He takes the initiative to actively participate in the marriage, in his child’s life. And the upkeep of the household, grocery shopping, cleaning. You know, all that stuff. Requirement 5: Improving Communication & Intimacy Anne: The reason the couple will attend marriage counseling is to improve their communication skills, their conflict resolution skills or intimacy skills. It’s not to address his abuse, his lying, or his affairs. So if a man is a explicit materials user and has affairs, inappropriately texts coworkers, or been lying to you for years. If he’s been blaming you to manipulate you and exploit you and you have betrayal trauma from infidelity. None of those five things I just said can be true. Marriage Counseling Should Never Be Recommended In These Circumstances Number one, because he’s purposefully lying in manipulating you and everyone else to avoid the true source of the conflict, his explicit content use, his lies or his double life. Number two, he’s never willingly honestly, or humbly identified, that he is the source of the conflict. But his choices are the source of the conflict. In fact, he’s been hiding it from you on purpose. Gaslighting you so that you don’t discover it. Number three, due to his explicit content use. He doesn’t have healthy expectations. If he expects you to look like the women in the content look, that’s not healthy. If he views you as an object, he’ll expect you to do what he wants. Like don’t ask questions. That’s not a healthy expectation. If he’s an exploiter, he’s going to see the relationship as a series of transactions. He goes to work, you give him it, or he brings home a paycheck. And you manage the children in household chores, the relationship, and everything else. That’s a transactionship. That’s not a relationship. Number four, if he has an exploitative character. The likelihood of him without you managing it for him, managing childcare, household tasks, any of that stuff, grocery shopping. The likelihood of him repairing the relationship, planning dates, or starting hard conversations is almost zero. He might do these things to groom you while he’s trying to achieve a goal. But once that goal was achieved, he’ll stop. So he doesn’t consistently do any of these things. The Fifth Reason These Requirements Fail In Abusive Relationships Anne: And number five, as you’re thinking about couple therapy in this scenario, if you’re thinking about marriage counseling. You don’t want to go to therapy to improve communication skills, because your communication is fine. Your conflict resolution skills, your intimacy skills are fine. So, if you’re not thinking, Hey, I need to improve my intimacy skills or my conflict resolution. If you just want to stop him from abusing you, or you want to figure out what’s going on. Then number five is not true. And r addiction marriage counseling will not work for you. Unfortunately, even if none of the five requirements for couples therapy or addiction marriage counseling are true. She may not know that he’s lying. Couple therapists don’t do emotional or psychological abuse screenings before they start couple therapy. And they don’t do abuse screenings for addiction marriage counseling. Most of the time, a couple therapist doesn’t know what is going on, and neither does the wife. And this situation is going to make it worse. A regular couple therapist only has one job. It’s to help the couple improve communication so they can resolve their conflicts. A man with an exploitative character is never interested in resolving conflicts. Although he may talk like he is, that’s actually a way that he’s going to continue to manipulate a victim. If he’s only interested in exploiting you, he’s going to see this whole situation as this perfect setup to continue to lie and manipulate you through the therapist. So I just talked about the five things that need to be true for couple therapy. No One Should Ever Go To Sex Addiction Marriage Counseling Anne: They apply equally to addiction marriage counseling. Which is why no one ever should go. Because those five things are never true if there’s addiction. When it comes to classic couple therapy, there are five things that guarantee a couple therapist will enable his abuse. And things will get worse for you. It will actually put your marriage at a greater risk for divorce. Because his abuse will escalate during couples therapy or addiction marriage counseling. And if he starts to escalate due to addiction marriage counseling, divorce might be your only option for safety. So you need to take this seriously. If you want to avoid divorce. I take this extremely seriously, because on a very personal level, divorce did not solve my ex-husband’s abuse problem. He continued to abuse me and my children emotionally, psychologically, and financially for eight years after our divorce. So I get it that women don’t want to consider divorce. And I’ll tell you my personal story of what happened with couples therapy in a minute. If you want to avoid divorce, you want to avoid an escalation of his abuse for obvious reasons. That’s the number one reason you never want to go to couple therapy. Or even desire couple therapy or addiction marriage counseling. When it comes to regular couple therapists, those trained in abuse will refuse to treat couples who meet the following criteria. Couple Therapy & Marriage Counseling Make Emotional Abuse Worse Anne: What I’ve noticed is they’re either not trained in abuse, so they don’t know to refuse couples who meet this criteria. Or they think there’s an exception. Women tell me so many stories. A couple therapist or addiction marriage counselor thought he or she was this gift to humanity. This pride caused them to bend the rules. Because they thought they’d been more successful than they actually were. So in the 300 interviews I did with betrayal trauma victims. They report they went to a addiction marriage counseling. And then they actually thought it worked for a minute. These women were pretty happy in the moment. And then they stopped going to therapy. And then they find out six months, a year, or two years later. That the husband was lying and manipulating the entire time. And it’s so traumatic to find that out. And so when she discovers that the addiction marriage counseling worsened it. He was able to groom her and manipulate her even worse than before. She usually doesn’t go back to that same therapist, because even the thought of that therapist is so traumatic for her. It’s painful to her to even think that she just spent all that money and time, and it didn’t do anything. So she usually doesn’t go back and say, hey, this didn’t work. So these therapists, all they know is that she left happy. They don’t know the end of the story. Alternatively, women tell me all the time that they came to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, started listening to the podcast. And they were like, this is kind of extreme. I don’t think this is my situation. So then they went to a couple therapy, and had a horrific experience. Ethical Criteria For Counselors To Refuse A Couple For Therapy: Abuse Of Any Type Anne: They return to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, like five years later. And let me know, oh, my word, this is what happened. And they tell me their stories. So women come back to Betrayal Trauma Recovery all the time to tell me. Whereas I don’t think your typical therapist has that scenario. So they just think they were successful. I find the attitude of addiction marriage counselors, that they can fix an abuser offensive. They don’t understand abuse. In that case, or they think the criteria I’m about to tell you doesn’t apply to them. Which is a huge red flag. And if they don’t have a screening process for this type of abuse, it’s unethical. So a couple therapist should refuse to treat any couple who meets any of these five criteria. Number one, if there is abuse of any type, emotional, psychological, sexual, physical, financial, any abuse whatsoever present. Lying, manipulation and gaslighting are abuse. So if your husband lied about his use, he’s been abusing you. And that disqualifies you from addiction marriage counseling, or couple therapy. But if you don’t know he’s been lying and you go to couple therapy, do you see the problem here? If he’s been lying to you about his use or his infidelity. He’s not going to suddenly tell the truth to a couple therapist. Similarly, if he admits to the explicit content use or you find it. And so you’re like, hey, let’s go to addiction marriage counseling. You’re in the same boat. Criteria 2 For Counselors To Refuse A Couple For Therapy: Mental Illness Or Addiction Anne: Either way, there’s been abuse. But the addiction marriage counselor will not see it as an abuse issue. They’re going to treat it as an addiction issue. Number two, any couple where one or both of the partners has a mental illness or addiction problem. Couple therapy is never indicated. So even if you don’t want to label his addiction as abuse, this still disqualifies you as a couple from addiction marriage counseling. Addiction marriage counseling should not even exist. It should not be a thing. Anyone doing it is unethical. Because you’ve got abuse, addiction, and maybe a mental illness issue. Let’s look at the victim for just a second, even if she’s been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder or depression, or sometimes bipolar. Many times she’s diagnosed with these things because she’s an abuse victim, and they don’t factor that in. So rather than saying, you’re fine. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re just an abuse victim. Let’s get you to safety. She gets a diagnosis. Every therapist should know that if mental illness is part of the mix, couple therapy is contraindicated. So if there’s any mental illness in the mix that’s diagnosed or known, or if he’s a known addict, that couple therapist should immediately stop couple therapy. And if you ever have a therapist who says, hey, he’s a addict, and so you need addiction marriage counseling, that’s the biggest red flag in the universe. Criteria 3: A Lack Of Empathy Anne: Let’s go back to this mental illness issue for just a minute. Some experts say two thirds of addicts have a mental illness now. I don’t care about this part, because all I care about is how it affects her and to her it’s abuse. But the stats are 44% of addicts have a personality disorder or traits of a personality disorder. And so some therapists will be like, oh, there’s a mental illness. Let’s treat that. I’ll tell you why I’m not a big fan of that in just a minute. They might say to you, you are experiencing PTSD symptoms, which is true. However, do they say you’re experiencing PTSD symptoms, but you’re fine? You’re totally normal. You’re acting exactly as you should be acting as an abuse victim. Because that’s what they should tell you. Instead, if they say you have some kind of mental illness because of your PTSD. Then you would be disqualified from couple therapy, which would sure disqualify you from addiction marriage counseling. Number three, if there is a lack of empathy, then a couple therapy is contraindicated. This is where one or both parties are unwilling or unable to understand the other person’s perspective. If empathy is lacking, many therapists who have this, like I can fix him complex, will try to teach him to have empathy. They’ll give him scripts and do empathy training. Like a fake it till you make it sort of approach. That is so dangerous, then abusers learn to mimic empathy, but they don’t actually feel it. So they understand the mechanics, and then they’ll use it as a weapon to groom you. And wives come back and report over and over that this type of therapy made their husband a super abuser. Criteria 4: Infidelity Anne: He began to talk in very empathetic ways and sounded better, but it just felt so cruel because his behavior hadn’t changed. He was doing it in ways that were so much more insidious and almost evil. Like we’ve had women come back and say he turned into the scariest person ever. Because everyone else was like, look how healthy and wonderful he is. And he’s so empathetic and loving. He used scripts from couples therapy or addiction marriage counseling to manipulate more. And that is one of the most distressing things that women report. Number four, if one person has engaged in a relationship outside the marriage. So like explicit content, which is a relationship with hundreds of women outside the marriage. Emotional affairs, then couple therapy is always contraindicated. Number five, if one person doesn’t want to reconcile or solve problems. So a man with an exploitative character, he never has the goal of solving problems. His only goal is to get what he wants from her, not to build something together. So if he’s got that type of character, whether you know it or not, couple therapy will escalate the situation. As reported by the women I interviewed, some therapists will say that if an addict or abuser has had a certain period of sobriety, or hasn’t been abusive, or has been in treatment for his addiction for his abuse for a year. Or a certain amount of time, it’s okay to start couple therapy or marriage counseling. And they report it did not go well, even after a period of sobriety or treatment. Anne’s Personal Experience With Couple Therapy Anne: In fact, my own experience illustrates this well. I had been dealing with an addict husband going to his own individual addiction therapist for years. We’d never tried addiction marriage counseling or couple of therapy before. Because I’d always refused. And things seemed like they had gotten a little better. They hadn’t. It was more like I was the frog in the pot, you know, I didn’t know that he had learned to lie better. But because I thought things had improved since he’d been doing therapy and going to 12 step, he admitted he was an addict. And then he said the reason why things aren’t going perfectly yet was because we needed to go to couple therapy. There were some things that “we needed to work out”. He’d been wanting me to do couple therapy the entire time. Sorry, side note, just yesterday I had one victim ask me if I knew he wanted to do it? I knew it was a bad idea, and that was my best test for whether the course of action was safe. Which kind of makes me smile now. Because my husband wanted to do couple therapy at the time, he was so excited. I remember when I agreed, he literally leaped off the couch and was like, awesome. Everything’s going to get better now. So we did 19 addiction marriage counseling sessions. And things only escalated. I think it’s because he thought now’s the time to unleash all my resentments toward her. All my feelings based on all my erroneous thought processes. Because he hadn’t changed his abusive thinking at all. And he wanted the couple therapist to cram it into me. Marriage Counselors Must Operate Under The Assumption Of Equality Anne: Because he was like, I can’t convince her that she’s got these problems, but now I can get the therapist to do it. And he became more and more abusive to the point where he hurt me and was actually arrested. And the court gave him a no contact order. Now couples therapists ethically, to maintain their licensure, must operate under the assumption of safety and equality. And in a situation with betrayal and addiction, there is no equality. Lies create an abusive power dynamic, because one person has more power than the other, because they have more information. So any couple therapist who does not see lying as an abuse issue creates a situation unequal and unsafe. Marriage Counseling for Couples Can Make Things Worse And so they’re not maintaining those ethical standards of operating with safety and equality. Okay, let’s move on to the second scenario I introduced at the beginning, when wives avoid addiction marriage counseling, or couple therapy. But I think his individual therapy isn’t going that well. And maybe if she talks to his therapist, the outcome will improve. When I discovered the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop Strategies, one of the things that was like rattling around in my mind was about one well-known addiction marriage counseling practitioner. I’d heard accounts of his abuse to women. He would require her to sign a contract that she wouldn’t leave the marriage for a year. That she couldn’t use anything she learned in addiction marriage counseling in a divorce. He made her sign a contract, stuff was really bad. I’ve heard a lot about this guy. He would tell the addicts or the abusers. If she’s angry, don’t worry. We can work with that. That’s not a problem, the only thing we can’t use is your wife’s apathy. Complexities Of Marriage Counseling or Couple Therapy Anne: Knowing that he thought he could use the woman’s emotions to benefit this himself. And the only thing he felt he could not use to the advantage of the abuser was apathy. That rattled around in my mind for a long time. And that concept is well explained in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. The Living Free Workshop outlines why it’s not safe to have your therapist talk to your husband’s therapist. Or to participate in your husband’s therapy as an observer, or to meet with a therapist with your husband. Even if the therapist says it’s not couple therapy or addiction marriage counseling. Which seems like word salad to me. So after explaining to you all the reasons why a couple therapy is sometimes counter-indicated, and addiction marriage counseling is always contra-indicated. You’re probably thinking. We don’t fit the criteria, and he continues to harm me. So, what do I do? I outline exactly what to do in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. Because it’s different than anything you’ve heard before, I wanted to visually show this to you. The Living Free Workshop is 55 video lessons. The total runtime of all 55 lessons is only two hours and 20 minutes. On average, they’re only three minutes each. I broke it up into tiny bite-sized pieces. The shortest video is 28 seconds, the longest is six minutes. There’s a question between each lesson that you can either answer. If you want to process it on a really deep level, or you can just like put an X in the box and push next. Then you also process the information with the free workbook that comes with it. It’s a PDF, a beautiful two page spread. The Living Free Workshop Helps You Determine Your Husband’s Character Anne: And so if you want it in color, you can get it printed at like Kinko’s or something. It’s more expensive. The cheapest way to print it is to order it on Amazon. It’ll come quickly, or you can print it at your house either way. Just make sure if you print it, print it double-sided. The Living Free Workshop will help determine your husband’s character. And help you know what to do. If you take the Living Free Workshop and you’re like, oh wait, he’s actually not abusive. Then couple therapy might be an option for you. And that would be great. But addiction marriage counseling should never be on the table, because it never meets the criteria for a couple therapy, ever. I don’t even know why it exists. If you’ve enrolled in The Living Free Workshop, I’d love to know what you thought about it.

Published: 22 July 2025

If you’ve just discovered your husband’s dark secrets, most women don’t know where to turn for help. If you’re wondering what to do when husband betrays your trust, here are 3 things to consider. 1. Check To See If His Betrayal Included Emotional Abuse Most men who betray their wives use emotional abuse tactics long before their lies are discovered. The first thing to do after your husband betrays your trust is to become educated about emotional and psychological abuse. To find out if your husband used any of the 19 different types of emotional abuse before or after you discovered his lies, take our free emotional abuse test. 2. Learn Strategies To Protect Yourself After you’ve discovered your husband’s betrayal, it’s imperative that you learn strategies to protect yourself. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop teaches women thought, boundary, and communication strategies to protect yourself emotionally and psychologically after you discover your husband’s lies. 3. Find The Right Support If your husband broke your trust, getting the right help is very important. Sadly, some people blame women who have been hurt. Therapists or clergy might say it’s her fault because she didn’t meet his needs or wasn’t easy to talk to. People often blame the victim, but this isn’t right. Victims of betrayal need support and kindness, not blame. Some women find out their husband lies about how he spends his time. He might spend hours watching pornography. Others find out he lies about money. Some even discover he lied about having an affair with a co-worker.This type of betrayal is hard because lying is emotional abuse. You’re not alone. If you need a safe place to talk about what happened, join our support group for betrayal trauma. Transcript: What To Do When Husband Betrays Your Trust Anne: I have a guest on today’s episode. She’s going to share her story. She actually wrote a book called Deceptive Liaisons, and we’re gonna call her Samantha, because that’s her pen name. As you’ll hear from her story, her husband betrayed her trust. Anne: Okay, so Samantha, welcome. Thank you for sharing your story with us today. Samantha: Thank you for having me. Anne: When did you first suspect that something wasn’t quite right in your relationship? Samantha’s Story Begins Samantha: When I first caught him with exploitative material, he said, all guys do it. And I’m like, it doesn’t make me feel good. Yeah, he had hidden apps like the app would fake like a calculator, but you put in certain numbers and it opens up to private pictures. And he’s like, Oh, it’s not about you. It’s just, something that all guys do. But when it affected our intimacy, that’s when I questioned, what’s going on here? He told me he had a big addiction. He did say this was something he should have told me before we were married. And he repeatedly promised he didn’t want to lose me over it. And he was going to get help. We were intimate, but it was very few and far between. And he would say, Oh, I have low testosterone or just make excuses. He’d always have his phone with him and take it in the bathroom with him in the middle of the night. And, again, I thought it was exploitative material. Anne: That makes sense. Did you realize that there was emotional and psychological abuse happening? Samantha: I mean, there was gaslighting and manipulation, my husband betrayed my trust. So part of you looks inward. Why am I not good enough? What have I done? You question, what could I have done differently or what am I doing that I shouldn’t be doing? Confrontation & Realization Samantha: So, about one in the morning of my birthday, I couldn’t sleep. So I went downstairs to watch TV. I started thinking, I’m just going to check his email. I thought I’d find something. Everything looked pretty normal in the email. Communication between us, friends, work. But when I clicked on archive, the first email was a reservation for a hotel on a business trip the week prior. But the next archived email was a reservation for two for the following night. And I was confused, because he had asked to go out for drinks with someone after work. He did this regularly. And that’s another reason why I didn’t suspect, because he always came home for the night. But I didn’t realize you can check in at 3 and be home by 11. Anyway, I was shocked. I was thinking, well, maybe I’m mistaken. Maybe it’s a surprise for me. So I got ready for work, brought him coffee, and he’s like, what’s wrong? And I asked him point blank, are you having an affair? And he looked me right in the eyes, and he goes, no, babe, I would never do that. I love you way too much. So I went to work, and there were streamers, balloons and gifts around my desk. And I was like, I don’t feel like celebrating. I don’t feel like myself. And then I double checked the, email just to see, maybe I saw something wrong. And when I clicked on the first reservation for his business trip, I did a double take and it wasn’t for a business trip, it was a beachfront resort in Hawaii for two the entire time. It is devastating to find out that my husband had betrayed my trust. Emotional Breakdown Caused By My Husband’s Betrayal of Trust Samantha: And he was on the same island I was on the whole time. It confirmed what I had been feeling. I ended up having to leave work, got home, and was just staring into space. And the phone rang, I answered it, and it was him. He says, hey, I called you at work and they said, you left. And I said, yeah, I decided to take the day off. And he goes, are you sure nothing else is wrong? So I gave him another opportunity to tell me the truth. And I asked him again, are you having an affair? And this time he’s almost got a little bit of anger in his voice. Like, come on, why are you asking me this? You know, I’d never do it. You need to get that out of your head. I love you too much. And that’s when I just lost it and broke down. And I’m like, I know you weren’t in Phoenix last week on business. You were with her. You’re meeting her again tomorrow night. It was probably a very short pause, maybe five seconds, but to me it felt like an eternity. That confirmed exactly, because he had no answer. I had caught him, and that’s when I just crumbled to the floor. I went into complete shock and started blurting out, who is she? How long have you known her? Where’d you meet? Da, da, da, da, and, of course, he didn’t give me the truth, my husband was lying to me. He had betrayed my trusts so deeply. The more I uncovered, the more questions I had. They Count On Us Not Knowing Samantha: There was so much gaslighting, I thought I was the problem, you know? If I had only done this better, and if I could have just done that better. In fact, I went to a counselor myself. I just wanted to make sure I’m a better person for him. I tried to look inside myself. And then realizing it wasn’t me after all. He was just turning it around so that I questioned myself and not him. And just so many lies upon lies. I don’t know how he kept up with it. Anne: Wow, I’m so sorry. That is absolutely devastating. Now that you know what you went through. When you didn’t realize it while you went through it. Like now that you realize, oh, wow, he was emotionally and psychologically abusive to me. For a lot of our marriage, and I didn’t understand. How does that change your perspective now, looking back? Samantha: I realize, looking back probably right from the beginning when we were dating. That the manipulation started back then, but I didn’t know what it was. How do you deal with that when you don’t know that your husband has been betraying your trust your whole marriage? Anne: Yeah, they know that we don’t know, and they count on that. It’s not like we’re stupid for not knowing. They’re like, not good people for purposefully doing that and being happy that we don’t know. And that says nothing about us and everything about them. Samantha: You know, if you’d have asked me, if your husband ever cheated, I’m like, I’m out of there. I’m leaving. But you don’t know until you’ve actually experienced it. Counseling & Recovery Attempts Samantha: And I wanted to save my marriage. We’d been married just over 20 years and had a blended family of six children. His first wife died of cancer when the boys were three and six. And together we raised six children, and I expected to be forever with him. So we went to counseling together, marriage counseling. and separate therapy. And he joined the addiction group to help with his addiction. Anne: So even though you’d known about his addiction, your whole marriage. He didn’t start addiction recovery until after you found out about the affair. Now I know your story, so I know there are multiple affairs that you find out about later, all just contiued betrayals of your trust. Knowing your story, at this point you began doing a bunch of things that the marriage counselor suggested or he suggested. Can you talk about that? Samantha: Oh, yeah, initially it was his idea for me to track him. I had access to all his everything, passwords and whatnot. I had an app that tracked everywhere he was, and if he was with anyone. Like in business or having lunch or with anyone, he would send a picture. Anne: I’m actually wondering, and I don’t know if you’ve thought of this, but that he maybe had a burner phone or something, and so he suggested it knowing that he could gain your trust but still get away with it. Samantha: I mean, he could have left his phone on his desk and gone out, and I wouldn’t have known. That’s stressful, and it creates anxiety. Husband’s Final Betrayal OF Trust & Divorce Samantha: If I look at the app and see, oh, is he supposed to be here? It was exhausting. I’m constantly missing out on what’s going on in front of me. And I couldn’t do it anymore. To me, character is defined by how you behave when no one’s watching. So I wanted to see how he’s going to behave? I said to him one day I’m going to keep taking care of the bills, and I’m going to delete the app so I no longer track you. And, within a week, he signed up with a couple of the sleazy dating sites. And, in no time, I found a 27 year old girl he met up and paid for sex in a hotel. Continued betrayal of trust from my husband. Another week went by, and we had our 20th anniversary. And I served him with divorce papers on our anniversary. I felt like I was worth more than what I was receiving. And I couldn’t keep putting myself in that place of pain. I wanted to move forward and have joy in my life again. Anne: Can you talk about what helped you recover after betrayal? Samantha: I narrow it down to: avoid alcohol and cannabis. Alcohol is a depressant, and you’ve already got a gaping wound. You don’t need to add salt to it. And, find someone to talk to, preferably someone who specializes in betrayal. I needed help, and I wanted someone experienced in betrayal. So thank you. My pastor referred me. That makes you know that you’re not alone. Talking To Someone Who Specializes In Betrayal Anne: I couldn’t have said it better myself. When your husband betrays your trust, it’s so important to talk to someone who specializes in betrayal and understands it. Like we do here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, our coaches are incredible. You can hear women’s stories on the best relationship podcast, which will help you know that you’re not alone. Anne: Well, Samantha, thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. Samantha: Thank you for having me.

Published: 15 July 2025

So many women struggle with the question: “What to do when you are mad at your husband?”. If you’re angry because your husband has harmed you, your anger makes sense. Did you know that legitimate anger is not bad, and in fact, it’s helpful? Anger is a natural response to harmful treatment, and it helps you know that something is wrong. It’s like a sacred internal warning system, alerting you to danger and calling you to action. Here are 7 Reasons Why Anger is NOT Bad: ANGER… Alerts you to unfair treatment. Motivates us to action. Clarifies reality. Restores your sense of self. Builds resistance. Interrupts manipulation. Strengthens resilience. If you’re feeling angry about your husband’s destructive behavior, we get it. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY to talk to other women who have been in your situation and can support you. Let your legitimate anger help you identify the real issue When women take a moment to evaluate why they feel angry, they can determine the source. Often they’re experiencing anger in reaction to their husband’s anger and emotional abuse. They feel scared, frustrated, tired, hurt, and overwhelmed. At BTR.ORG we encourage victims of emotional abuse to think differently about their anger. To discover if your husband’s anger is actually emotional abuse, take this free emotional abuse quiz. Transcription: what to do when you are mad at your husband Anne: It’s just me today. Has anyone else ever noticed that society has double standards for men and women’s anger? Society often celebrates and justifies men’s anger, while it views women’s anger as irrational and emotional. The Double Standard of Anger Anne: Like if he says, “My wife cheated on me, and it makes me so angry.” Everyone would be like, yeah. I would be angry too. But if a husband cheats on his wife and she gets angry, somehow people blame her anger for his cheating. Anger for him is always justified as a response to apparent harm. For women, anger is considered a condition – like, “She’s angry” as if it’s a character trait rather than an emotion. If your husband’s behavior is destructive, like he’s always angry, he’s lying to you, or he’s emotionally abusive, it’s not wrong to be angry. Here are seven reasons why your anger is not bad. 1. Anger alerts you to Unfair Treatment Anne: Number one, anger alerts you to unfair treatment. Anger is your mind and body’s way of signaling to you that something is wrong. So when you feel a surge of anger, take a minute to determine what the anger is about. Instead of like pushing it away and thinking I shouldn’t be angry, accept the lesson it’s offering you. It might help you determine your level of emotional safety, and then you can start to heal from emotional abuse. 2. Anger Motivates Action Anne: Number two, anger motivates action. I believe God gave us anger to help us take action and protect ourselves.This can be confusing, because abusive men are often angry due to their exploitative privilege. Meaning that they get angry when people resist their exploitative behaviors. And that is NOT a good reason to be angry. That’s actually an exploitative reason, and their anger is emotional abuse, because they’re using their anger to manipulate you. They’re using their anger to scare you or threaten you, so they can continue to exploit you. However, if protection and safety are your top priorities, your anger is NOT BAD. It can actually help you get to safety. 3. Anger Clarifies Reality Anne: Number three, anger clarifies reality. One of the hardest parts about emotional abuse is that it muddles your sense of reality. The gaslighting and manipulation can make you doubt your own thoughts and feelings. Anger cuts through that confusion. It’s an inner voice that’s saying this is not okay. 4. Anger Restores Your Sense of Self Anne: Number four, anger restores your sense of self. Emotional abuse often chips away your sense of identity, leaving you feeling small, powerless or invisible. But anger can strengthen your connection to your authentic self by reminding you of your worth and helping you get in touch with your own emotions. 5. Anger Builds Resilience Anne: Number five, anger builds resilience. Women who acknowledge and channel their anger constructively often use it to fuel their personal growth. For example, I felt intense anger when I started podcasting and created the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast. My ex-husband’s oppression for eight years after our divorce angered me, motivating me to dedicate all my effort to this podcast and our services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, especially the Living Free workshop.. The situation infuriated me, and I became determined to find a way to free myself from him, which I’ll discuss a little later. 6. Anger is not bad – Interrupts Manipulation Anne: Number six, anger interrupts manipulation. Emotional abusers rely on manipulation to maintain control in relationships. And they use tactics like belittling or guilt tripping, or even grooming to manipulate you. When you internalize that your righteous anger is not bad, it becomes harder for him to manipulate you. 7. Anger is not bad – it Sparks Hope for Change Anne: And number seven, anger sparks hope for change. You might think this is ironic. It may sound counterintuitive, but anger can lead to hope. Anger signals that you can recognize the injustice happening to you, and that you’re ready to take action to protect yourself. Countless women who have shared their stories on the BTR podcast, describe anger as the emotion that finally allowed them to see a future beyond abuse. A future filled with safety and dignity. If your husband is angry, but he says that you can’t be angry about his anger. Know that anger as a response to abuse is a sign of strength, not weakness. People often misunderstand anger, especially in women who are conditioned to suppress it or feel ashamed. Know your anger is not bad. When you face emotional abuse, your anger can empower you to see the truth and take action. Personal Journey with Anger Anne: Years ago, I felt really angry, and people kept saying I had a problem with my anger. I didn’t believe it was a problem because I saw it as righteous anger, completely justified. Like, who wouldn’t be angry? My husband lied to me, cheated on me, and exploited me for his own gain. He didn’t care about me at all and now I have to live with the consequences of that. Like. Of course, I’m angry. Like, why are you not angry about it? What’s wrong with you, that you’re not angry about the situation. Studying Scripture Showed Me anger is not bad Anne: I am Christian. So I turned to studying the scriptures to try to like process my anger, to figure out what God thought about my anger. And interestingly, through that study, I actually came up with the Living Free strategies that enabled me to deliver myself and my kids. Living Free Strategies To Make Anger Work For You Anne: The recording I’ll play is from when I studied and tried to figure out what God wanted me to do to be delivered. You can hear the hope in my voice. A year or two after this recording, I discovered the Living Free Strategies and used them to completely free myself and my children from our abusive situation. For years, we’ve lived free and have had peace. To learn how I eventually delivered myself, click here to learn more about The Living Free Workshop strategies. If reading scriptures is triggering and you want to skip the rest of this episode, go ahead. Or you may want to listen to hear when I’m trying to figure out if my anger is okay with God, and let it guide me. I hoped for deliverance, even when I had no evidence of it. So here is this recording from years ago. Hopefully, it will be helpful to you. what to do when you are mad at your husband: Righteous anger in Scriptures Anne: Once I realized that if I didn’t feel angry, something would be wrong with me, things started to change. If I didn’t feel angry, I would be weird. Then, I could actually embrace it. Many righteous people throughout all of time have felt righteous anger and a desire for justice. Righteous anger is not bad. In my situation, my ex is still using the kids to hurt me. So I don’t know when I will be delivered from having to interact with him. I pray it will happen soon. There’s no way that I, by myself, can make all things right for me and my kids. For me, as a Christian, relying on My Savior brings me peace and hope. And I know that all I need to do is set that boundary and maintain it. And when I continue to maintain it, I’m standing for truth and righteousness, and hopefully I will be delivered. The scriptures, talk about righteous people who are healthy going through great trials. And the Lord promises them peace. Moses’ Example of Righteous Anger Anne: People like Moses, Elijah, David, and even Jesus demonstrated that righteous anger is not bad.  In Mark 3:5, for example, it’s talking about the Savior. And it said, “and when he had looked roundabout on them with anger being grieved for the hardness of their hearts.” Repeatedly. The scriptures talk about God being angry about wickedness. “His anger was not turned away, but his hand was stretched out still.” Moses uses his righteous anger to deliver the Israelites from the bondage of Pharaoh, and helps them walk through the Red Sea on dry ground to safety. And then they end up wandering in the wilderness for 40 years, right? That’s how I felt—God freed me from bondage, led me through on dry ground, and now I’m wandering in the wilderness, unsure of what will happen and still facing serious trials. This pattern has existed since the beginning of time. And there are a bunch of war chapters in the scriptures. I’m going to read some today that have helped me understand righteous anger and what that looks like. The point of this is not to proselytize by any means. I respect all your views. However, this is how God showed me that my righteous anger is not bad, and how to allow it to guide me toward deliverance. Scriptural Examples of Righteous Anger Anne: Moroni who is the captain of an army is one of the most righteous men in the scriptures. It says, “And verily, verily, I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever, yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men. Moroni is described as an extremely faithful, extremely righteous man.” “He was a man of love and perfect understanding,” it says. “A man who did not delight in bloodshed, a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his brethren from the bondage of slavery. Yea, a man whose heart did swell with thanksgiving to his God for the many privileges and blessings which he bestowed upon his people, a man who did labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of his people.” So it says specifically in Alma 48 verse 12, “He labored for the safety of his people.” And then in 13, “Yea, he was a man who was firm in the faith of Christ, and taught to defend themselves against their enemies.” “Yea, they were also taught never to give an offense. Yea, never to raise the sword, against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives. Nevertheless, they could not suffer to lay down their lives that their wives and their children should be massacred by the barbarous cruelty of those that were once their brethren and had left them.” Anger is not bad – it helps you create Boundaries Anne: Moroni is saying if you have harmed your children or your family, you cannot be here anymore. So, they create boundaries for safety. Alma chapter 50 verse 18 says, “and thus we see how merciful and just are the dealings of the Lord to the fulfilling of all his words unto the children of men.” And the Lord says to them in verse 20, “Blessed art thou and thy children and thou shall be blessed but remember in as much as they will not keep my commandments, they shall be cut off.” Now when we recognize that our spouse has not been healthy and is not making good overt or covert choices, we get the consequences of that, and our homes are in chaos, and things start to fall apart. And we start suffering from the unrighteousness of someone else, which is extremely painful and difficult, especially if we’re doing the right thing. In this case, our anger is not bad. And it says in verse 21, “and we see that these promises have been verified for it has been their quarrelings and their contentions, yea, their murderings and their plunderings, their idolatry, their whoredoms and their abominations, which were among themselves, which brought upon them their wars and their destructions.” Anger is not bad when you’re resisting Abuse Anne: The battle between an abuser and his victim at home brings all types of contention and chaos. Those who were faithful in keeping the commandments of the Lord were delivered at all times. While the wicked, brethren, having been consigned to bondage, perish. You are feeling the effects of that, and it does not feel good. Your anger is not bad. It feels miserable, and that’s what Moroni felt, too. He felt like being in the situation where there were people who were not doing the right thing, who were not making healthy choices, it was miserable. In Alma 52, verse 21, it says “and it came to pass that Moroni, having no hopes of meeting them upon fair grounds, can see that it is impossible to talk with these people who are lying and deceiving. On fair grounds, therefore, he resolved upon a plan.” So, in several verses, it says that he is going to deal with them by stratagem, that he’s not going to actually speak with them, because that doesn’t get him anywhere. Anger is not bad – it leads you to safety Anne: If a person is too unhealthy to talk to, I need to figure out a way to get to safety, which doesn’t involve confronting them directly. In chapter 54, verse 7, Moroni says, “Yea, I would tell them these things if they were capable of hearkening unto them. Yea, I would tell them concerning the awful hell that awaits them. Accept they withdraw and return their armies to their own lands. But as they have once rejected these things, and fought against the people of the Lord, even so, may I expect they will do it again.” So Moroni’s saying, I just keep seeing this pattern over and over and over again. And then he says in verse 11, “Behold, it’s supposed with me that I talk to them concerning these things in vain. Or it supposeth me that thou art a child of hell.” So, Moroni is angry, in a good way. Then in verse 13, he says, “Behold, I am in my anger, and also my people. We have only sought to defend ourselves.” And that is a righteous thing to do. Recognizing that righteous anger is not wrong. Moroni is the most righteous person. And he is doing that. So we can follow his example with peace and with confidence. Standing Firm Against Harm Anne: Alma 55, says, “For I will not grant unto him that he shall have any more power than what he hath got.” Chapter 57, verse 20, says, “They were firm and undaunted.” I’m going to add, in their boundary, although it doesn’t say that. In verse 26, miracles start happening. In says of Moroni’s people, the women and the children and the righteous people, “Now their preservation was astonishing to our whole army, yea, that they should be spared.” “And we did justly ascribe it to the miraculous power of God because of the exceeding faith in that which they had been taught to believe, that there was a just God and whosoever did not doubt that they should be preserved by his miraculous power.” In chapter 58, verse 6, It says, “And the wicked were sallying forth against us from time to time, resolving to destroy us. Nevertheless, we could not come to battle with them, because of their strongholds. And it came to pass that we did wait in these difficult circumstances for the space of many months, even until we were about to perish for want of food.” So they’ve created a boundary, they’re waiting it out, and it’s not going well for them. And then, The Lord’s promises are revealed. Why God Gave Us Anger Anne: Let me pause here as modern-day me to reflect on what I’ve learned through my experiences with the stages of anger after betrayal. There were countless moments when I didn’t know how I’d pay my bills or keep my home. I couldn’t see a way forward, yet I kept moving, step by step, trusting that somehow, things would work out. And they did. Time and again, the Lord provided just what I needed. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. I’m not in that same day-to-day survival mode anymore, but I know that if I ever find myself there again, I can look back on those times and trust that things will be okay. That trust didn’t remove my struggles, but it gave me the strength to face them. In the scriptures, Moroni describes being under siege, feeling surrounded and overwhelmed. In Alma 58:9, it states, “…we grieved and felt fear; therefore, we poured out our souls in prayer to God to strengthen and deliver us.” That prayer isn’t just about deliverance—it’s about recognizing that righteous anger is not bad, it’s telling you something is not right and giving you a call for action. And in verse 11, it says, “The Lord our God visited us with assurances…he did speak peace to our souls, and grant unto us great faith, and did cause us that we should hope for our deliverance.” That hope gave them the courage to act, to keep fighting. In verse 40, they declared, “We have received many wounds; nevertheless, we stand fast and are strict to remember the Lord our God from day to day.” what to do when you are mad at your husband: Deliverance Anne: “Yea, And it came to pass that the Lord our God did visit us with assurances that he would deliver us.” “Yeah in so much that he did speak peace to our souls and a grant unto us great faith, and did cause us that we should hope for deliverance in him.” And in verse 12, “And we did take courage.” In 58 verse 37, “We trust God will deliver us, notwithstanding our weakness, yea, deliver us out of the hands of our enemies.” In verse 40, Talking about the righteous armies, and I’m talking about you, and I’m going to put a we instead of a they here, “But behold, we have received many wounds.” “Nevertheless, we stand fast and we are strict to remember the Lord our God from day to day. Yeah, for our faith is strong in the prophecies concerning that which is to come.” How Anger Can Help You Anne: When I discovered the Living Free Strategies, I wanted to see if they would work for other women. I didn’t know if it was just me, or if it was a fluke. So I mentored other women using the strategies, and we found they worked for everyone. Even if you’re not Christian. The Living Free Workshop is presented in a more secular form. So the strategies apply to everyone. But I’m so thankful. For my savior. For delivering my children and I. My testimony of Jesus Christ is that he is the deliverer and he is our savior. And we can look to him. And he will show us the path forward. That doesn’t mean we don’t get help or learn new things, right? We can learn through Living Free strategies, get help from a coach, or graphics on Instagram. In fact, so many women have told me they prayed to know what to do for help. And then they found the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, it was an answer to their prayer. If you’re not Christian, I hope that the information you find at Betrayal Trauma Recovery helps you find the peace that you deserve in your life.

Transcribed - Published: 8 July 2025

If you’re wondering, “Why is my husband yelling at me?” the answer might surprise you. Here are 7 key questions to help uncover the real reasons behind his constant anger. 1. Maybe He’s Yelling Because He Has A Secret? When your husband has something he wants to do that he doesn’t want you to know about. He will be very irritated when you ask normal everyday questions. Or try to interact with him like any normal person would. Hiding things from you is not only lying and deceit, it’s actually a form of emotional and psychological abuse. To know if he’s using any of the 19 types of emotional abuse to hide his secret, take our free emotional abuse quiz. 2. Is Your Husband’s Yelling About Overpowering You? The purpose of yelling in the context of marriage is to overpower the other person. If he’s yelling at you, his primary motivation is to control you or the situation. Unfortunately for you, overpowering someone isn’t about relationship – it’s about control. If your husband frequently attempts to overpower you by yelling. He’s more interested in keeping his secrets hidden or exploiting you than solving problems. 3. Does His Yelling Solve Problems? As previously mentioned, yelling is never about solving problems. Healthy people who are solution oriented ask questions to clarify or understand, not to overpower. If he’s yelling questions at you, he’s doing it to prove you wrong, silence you, or invalidate you, not solve a problem. It’s important to understand this type of abuse considering what the long term effects of emotional abuse in marriage are dynamic, so you can use strategies to protect yourself. To learn more, enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. 4. When He Yells at You, Does It Hurt? Your husband may claim that yelling is just part of normal communication. Or he may even insist that he isn’t yelling when he is. But if he’s yelling, he’s using his voice to intimidate, control, and degrade you. If it hurts, it’s actually emotional harm. To learn more about why this is emotionally abusive, listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. 5. Is He Yelling At You In Front Of Children? When he yells at you to create an excuse to stomp off and do the secret thing he had planned, it creates an environment of fear and instability for children. They’ll feel like they have to walk on eggshells. Additionally, witnessing their mother be emotionally abused in this way can have long-lasting effects on children’s mental health and well-being. 6. Does Your Husband Say His Yelling Is Your Fault? If he tells you he wouldn’t yell if only you (fill in the blank), that’s nonsense. He has a million choices about how he can respond, and yelling is only one of those choices. Did you know he could ask a question and listen to the answer? He could sit down and listen to what you have to say. He could stop being selfish. His yelling has literally nothing to do with you. If he blames you for it, that’s emotional and psychological abuse. 7. Does He Sound Like He Cares, But It’s Really A Threat? If your husband yells at you and then says, “I don’t want to do something I’m going to regret, so I’m going to go cool off,” you might not realize it, but this can actually be a veiled threat. What he’s really communicating is that he’s capable of harming you, whether physically or emotionally. By framing it this way, he shifts the responsibility onto you to avoid triggering his harmful behavior, which is a form of manipulation. If he stonewalls you by stomping off, that’s a threat to your dignity. That communicates clearly, “You’re not worth resolving problems with.” Anytime a husband yells at his wife and stomps off, it’s an abusive threat meant to silence and overpower her, whether she recognizes it or not. How To Stop My Husband From Yelling At Me While there’s no way to stop your husband from yelling or change his character to be an emotionally safe person. There is a way to protect yourself. Our online betrayal trauma support group meet daily to provide healthy, compassionate support for women in this situation. Transcript: Why Is My Husband Yelling At Me? Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Cat. Before Cat shares her story. Here are seven key questions to ask yourself to determine: Why is my husband yelling at me? And if his yelling indicates something deeper. And you’ll hear these themes throughout Cat’s story. Cat: Thanks, Anne. I’m happy to be here. Anne: I’m so sorry about what you’ve been through. Let’s start at the beginning. Cat: I met him in college and of course, he never yelled in the beginning. Looking back, I can see so many red flags—but at the time, I didn’t even have a framework to recognize them. One of the best things that the Betrayal Trauma Recovery community and the coaches had me do was write a timeline of our entire relationship. Throughout the process of separation, divorce, and healing, whenever I would feel wobbly, I would just go back and look at that timeline, and it immediately grounded me. So, I still look at it from time to time, just to remember it was always there. Recognizing Covert Narcissistic Abuse Cat: It wasn’t me. The signs were always there. It took me that long to claw my way out. I think that’s probably the best thing any woman who finds herself in this situation can do. So many women are aware of the more overt and socially recognized forms of abuse. That’s what we’re on the lookout for. My parents raised me in the South. I was aware, staying away from the “bad guys.” The guys who were more, maybe aggressive alpha males who were more overt in their expressions of aggression. Like men who are always yelling and stomping around. Oh, I would never end up in a relationship with someone like that. And I think most women have a hard time recognizing that highly intelligent, manipulative, covert, narcissistic type of abuse. I always wondered, what does the bible say about narcissistic abuse. That is consistently playing the long game. He is very performative in his social kind of markers, very progressive, very liberal. He would seem very pro-women, sensitive, you know, all those things. But behind closed doors or with what probably feels like enabling company to him, there are many behaviors that I now recognize as problematic. One of the first was such an obvious red flag to me. Our junior year, we’d been dating for a while. But I had not seen any of the red flag behavior. One of his dearest friends from childhood who also went to our college was his roommate. He pulled me aside and said, have you seen his dark side? And I didn’t know what he was talking about. I couldn’t even imagine what he was describing. When Your Husband Is Yelling, Manipulative & Mooddy Cat: He would act moody and grouchy for a prolonged time. His friend group had become accustomed to and sort of made space for. I now understand that friend group is what would be called flying monkeys and enablers. At the time, I didn’t know that. And he was sort of the alpha of that friend group. Even though he was not your typical alpha male. And it wasn’t long after that that I did see a sort of dark side come out. I couldn’t figure out what had happened. I still don’t know why he directed the moodiness and grouchiness at me. So I said, you know, “What’s going on? What’s wrong? What do you need? How can I help you?” Doing all the things, and nothing I did made a difference. And then just like within 24 hours, I guess it passed, but there was no reason given. Eventually, the narrative became this is something the men in my family do. We all struggle with anxiety and depression. He implied it was part of their genetic makeup. Anne: I have developed a theory, and when my book comes out, it clearly outlines this. When they start to escalate to yelling and fighting like that for seemingly no reason, it’s because they have something else they want to do. But they can’t figure out how to get away from us. Cat: Mm hmm. Instigating A Fight & Stomping Off Anne: So he starts yelling to instigate a fight. They can stomp off and do the thing they want to do, like solicit a prostitute, but they can’t say to you, Hey, you know what, I’ve got a prostitute to solicit. Cat: Right. Anne: And so I’m going to go, some of them will be like, I’ve got homework to do. And go and solicit the prostitute. So the question I have is, did he escalate to the point where he kind of stomped off? Cat: Yes, that was always what would happen. He even told me he managed outbursts like that. Anne: Was stomping off? Cat: Yeah, stomping off, going on a walk, going out. And that became the protocol, his way of dealing with this over the decades. I can’t even believe it, Anne, but now that you’re saying it that way. Anne: But he didn’t say we know how to leave the house and make it your fault so we can go solicit a prostitute. I’ve interviewed over 300 betrayal trauma victims in long form interviews like this one. And in the 70s, the 1970s in the 1900s. Maybe they went to like the corner secret store, but I’ve seen it as a pattern. And until you put the pieces together. It’s hard to know, because they would never ever admit it. That they just want you to think they got so mad at you because you’re so terrible. That’s the only way they could cool down, and they’ll maybe even say it in a way that makes them sound a little bit nice. Psychopaths & Pity Anne: Like I didn’t want to hurt you anymore. And so to explain why I yelled and stomped off to like, save you from my anger. When they invented a fight from nothing, to do the secret thing they wanted to do. That they had planned before they started the “argument.” Cat: Yeah, yes, women who find themselves in this situation. The fact that we have a conscience makes it so easy to dupe us. By people who don’t have a conscience, because we just assume the person we’re with also has a conscience. So it’s hard to conceive the depth of manipulation and malignancy. And really, up until D-Day, I could not have conceived this was what was happening. I truly believed his rationales or reasons. I know this is such a stereotype, but he had a lot of trauma in his childhood. His mother died in an accident when he was young. And a lot of the “moodiness, depression, and anxiety,” and I’m using air quotes there, because I no longer believe that’s what it was. But that’s what it was attributed to at the time. It was implicitly ascribed to that trauma, and I made space for that all the time. Even if it wasn’t directly talked about. That was the narrative I created in my mind for what was going on and why he deserved compassion, understanding and support. Anne: I had a therapist say to me once about my ex, he’s a psychopath, and I was like, what? She’d never met him, so she couldn’t diagnose him. Blaming His Yelling & Anger On Something In The Past Anne: She said, did he manipulate you to feel sorry for him to get away with yelling and bad behavior? And I said, wow, I didn’t think about that. She said one of the hallmarks of a psychopath is they want someone to pity them. Cat: Yeah. Anne: Because a healthy person does not want someone’s pity. They’re like, yeah, my mom passed away from a car accident when I was a kid. It was a real bummer, it’s sad, but like, I’m healthy now and here I am as an adult. Cat: Yeah. Anne: But they could use anything to elicit pity to do what they want to do. Let’s go back to that flying monkey friend. It’s interesting to me that you said your husband was the alpha of this group. Who I assume took his side later from the way you described it. What do you think his motivation was to ask if you had seen a dark side? Do you think he was trying to warn you? Cat: I don’t know if it was out of concern for me. I have to share the tone of this friend group. They’re all very sweet. They’re all very kind. Well, I know one of them has attacked me verbally, talking about me behind my back. I don’t know that any of the rest of them have. They have all, at least to me, said kind, compassionate things, but it’s that sitting on the fence. You know, I want to be nice to you. I want to be a good guy and say the right thing to you, but I’m also going to totally support your ex-husband. It’s Not Our Fault That We Believe Them Cat: Although when my ex husband, I think, notified some of his cohort and requested privacy or something like that. One of those friends reached out to both of us and said, I’m so sorry to hear this. If either of you want to talk, I’m here. And, I did contact him, and I told him everything going on. We had a long conversation, and he believed everything I said because he had seen things. But he said to me, you know Cat, we all knew he was capable of this. We just hoped it wasn’t happening to you. That’s like verbatim what he said to me, and yet they’re all just there for him. So I thought the group was all kind, all sensitive, all good guys. And yet they are his enablers to the end. I’ve since cut ties with everyone. Like, all of them, even though some of them were my friends, separate from my ex-husband before we got together in college, even most of his family, I’ve cut ties with. I do have intermittent contact with his brother and brother’s wife from his family, who do not speak to him anymore. But the rest, I’ve cut everyone out. Anne: That’s so hard. We perceive it as a warning, but part of me wonders if they’re testing the waters. Cat: Mm hmm. Anne: Because many of them drop the mask a little bit before the marriage, and then they put it back on. And I often wonder if it’s a little bit of a test, and again, this is not our fault that we believe them. Which is the most awful, unconscionable thing to think. Abuse Cycles & Realizations Anne: A normal person would be like, shoot, she believed me. I better tell her the truth so that she knows what she’s getting into. Cat: Yeah. Anne: uh, it’s awful. Cat: Yeah, after that first, I didn’t know what it was at the time, but now I understand that was abuse early on. Nine months into dating, it didn’t happen again for a long time. I couldn’t figure out why those cycles of yelling and anger got closer and closer together, and I wondered what to do when you’re mad at your husband, and it took 15 or more years. I mean, I was in my 30s with three children before I realized, like, this is just my life. It’s just one big, and I didn’t have the word abuse cycle then. But I understood that this is all the time now, it’s not intermittent episodes anymore. It is just a constant, daily grind. We all know the frog in the pot of boiling water analogy. I look back now and understand the behaviors. Especially the outward behaviors that were happening within our various friend groups over the decades. They meant to create his false image to hide his secret behaviors, secret basement. And covert abuse while simultaneously invalidating me. So that if I ever went to someone, I wouldn’t be believed. He did actually write that to me. He admitted he did that on purpose. So I know that the gaslighting, which was happening outwardly with our friends. Him putting on the mask of a good guy, all the way to him encouraging me to go to the Women’s March in DC. Like almost to the point of like, if I didn’t go, it would be disappointing him. Because that’s part of his mask. My Husband Yells & Abuses Because It Works Cat: The fact that he would be married to a feminist means there’s no way he could do what he’s doing. You know, it’s like a decorator crab. They’re just putting all these things on their shell, and I was like his crown jewel. But I was just social capital, that’s it. And I know now that’s what our family was. So that long game, it’s hard to wrap your mind around how deep and calculated it is. I still struggle with wondering, is it all conscious or “he can’t help it.” And I’m saying that with air quotes like, he can’t help it. Not like, oh, poor him. I don’t feel that way at all. But that it’s such a part of who he is. And it’s kind of gotten to the point where it doesn’t matter to me. I just know that I want that level of manipulation nowhere around me. And, I know it works on many people, and I can’t worry about that. Anne: And the answer might be that they yell and abuse because it works. Cat: Yeah. Anne: It allows them to exploit people. It allows them to work the least amount. Cat: Yep. Anne: In terms of emotional work, psychological work, and even physical labor. It allows them to have all the privileges of a family without having the responsibilities. Cat: Yeah. Anne: A survey done in prison that the counselor asked the abusers in the prison, why would you abuse? They just had lists and lists of reasons, all the entitlements they get. And then he said, why wouldn’t you? And they said things like, because I might get thrown in jail. False Disclosures & Therapy Manipulation Anne: Because people might not like me, and guess what wasn’t on their list, because I care about her, was not on the list. So anytime someone lacks that basic human care for their own partner, and everyone is just fodder for exploitation, They’re just going to do what works and controlling people with anger and yelling works .They’re very practical, not to their credit, but their values and moral system are only based on what works to get them what they want, not what is the right thing to do. Cat: Yeah, and I think that goes along with what I was talking about. People with a conscience have a hard time comprehending the behaviors of people without a conscience. It causes us to give them the benefit of the doubt all the time. And then the people without a conscience use that against us or use that for their own betterment. To your point, about the therapist saying your ex husband was a psychopath. We did couple’s therapy for probably eight years, almost weekly, because of a fake disclosure that happened. Anne: He lied about something he did? Cat: I know crazy, right? He lied about something. Yeah, so this is, it’s almost like hard to believe I didn’t see it. So we had many, many years of abuse cycles, increasing in regularity. I had begged him to go to therapy, but there was so much I didn’t know about getting a therapist for my abusive husband. for a long time. He wouldn’t do it. He also had pretty regular impotence, which I had personally seen professionals about. Because I didn’t want a loveless marriage. Discovering The Truth Cat: And I eventually encouraged him to seek help about it. I remember asking him if men attracted him. And I didn’t know about exploitative content use at that time. I had no concept that this material induced impotency. And no professional I went to, you know, doctors, therapists, acupuncture, whatever. No one said, could it be this? Nobody said that to me. So I went to him and said, can you go get checked out? Let’s figure out what’s going on, and he came back. He said everything’s fine, they just said it’s anxiety, but the abuse cycles associated with his impotence were the worst. I had three kids, eventually I just kept them away as much as possible. While he was like in a dark room, on the computer and grouchy. So his dad, came to visit one time. He saw what was happening, and came to me and said he didn’t like what he was seeing. And I said, can you tell him to go to therapy? Because he won’t listen to me. So he went to therapy after his dad told him to. He got on some anti-anxiety medication, and things nominally improved. The yelling and abuse cycles were still there, but they were not as extreme. And then he came to me and said, I’ve been talking to my therapist and I need to confess something to you, because I’m worried about how I might act on this impulse I’m having. He said, I just wanted you to know that I was watching this horrible stuff. I have to admit, I didn’t care about it at that point. And I just thought it was something most guys did. I didn’t know all the harms associated with it. Concocting A Lie To Preempt Discovery Cat: I didn’t like it, but it wasn’t an area of concern for me. So he said I watched it, and all these pop up windows came up, and I clicked on a website. I started talking to a bot, and it was taking me further into chat rooms. And these are his words. “I was getting worried about how far I was going,” he said. “I ended up on a website called Ashley Madison”, and he said, “All I was doing was talking to people.” But again, I had no idea, I mean, I look back now and I’m just like, I’m a different person, but I said, Ashley Madison. And then I realized what Ashley Madison was. I did not think he was cheating, I believed what he said about just talking to people. Anne: For women who may not be aware of the Ashley Madison scandal, can you give a brief overview of that? Cat: It’s a website for married people to sign up to cheat on their spouses. Anne: Right, they hacked it and released all the names? Cat: Well, I didn’t know that, but yes, that’s why he did it. Yes, he was preempting. Anne: Exactly, he was getting ahead of it just in case you discovered it. Cat: Yes, exactly. It was a fake disclosure. Anne: That time, you think, of course he’s telling the truth. Because why would he tell me if he didn’t tell the truth? There’s no way you’d think he concocted a lie preemptively, so that he could lie to you if you discovered the truth. Cat: Exactly. Going No Contact Anne: When you said the abuse cycle with the impotence was the worst. That may or may not confirm my theory. That the reason why he’s yelling and angry is because you’re obstructing them from using. Or hooking up with married women on Ashley Madison. Because anytime you try to talk to them, if they’re like on their way to use it, or if they’re on their way to do the thing they want to do. They’ll be extremely irritated. And mad at you, so that they have an “excuse” to go do something else. And that also might explain why he was so impotent at that time. Because if you’re using every day or multiple times a day, you’re definitely going to be impotent with your wife. Cat: Yeah, and he told me at the end of the marriage that there were times where he was using it seven hours a day. He would leave his tech job and meet up with like Craigslist hookups. Which who knows, and my oldest son said to me, you would be an idiot to believe a word that comes out of his mouth at this point. And that was just a few months after he admitted the “real” and I’m saying real in air quotes. Because I’m sure that’s the tip of the iceberg. Whatever he admitted. I mean, we had 26 years of him doing stuff. I don’t know about, whatever he admitted. There’s way worse out there, but that’s all I needed. And that’s when I went no contact. Couples Therapy & Narcissism Cat: But after the first fake disclosure regarding Ashley Madison, he had a whole plan in place. He had already contacted a couples therapist. He said, let’s start doing couples therapy. I want to use this to rebuild our marriage and all this stuff. And I never enthusiastically agreed, but I definitely acquiesced. And so we spent eight years in couples therapy, I realize now what garbage that was. He used couples therapy to manipulate me. When more truth came out, I scheduled an appointment with that therapist and recounted several times. I had tried to point to what happened. And was silenced in couples therapy. That couples therapist, to his credit, said he’s definitely a covert narcissist. And I think he’s a sociopath. Probably like your therapist saying, your ex-husband was a psychopath. This therapist saw my ex-husband weekly for eight years. So that was eye opening for me. Anne: That’s the first time the therapist recognized he lied for eight years. The fact that someone can go to therapy every week for eight years and lie the entire time. My ex did it through addiction recovery therapy. He’d go to 12-step meetings and lied to everyone. He enjoyed every minute of it. Mine loved therapy. When I mentioned, hey, let’s go to therapy. He was like, yes. Once they discover that therapy will work for them, they don’t mind it at all. A lot of women think, if I could just get him in therapy, and it sounds like you thought that. Cat: I did! Anne: Then you did. And it gets worse. Weaponizing Therapy Anne: They learn how to weaponize the therapy against us. So that they seem better and sound good. Yours was already good at that, so it makes them even more scary. So yeah, if you’re listening, thinking if he would only go to therapy. Cat: It’s dangerous. Especially couples therapy, when you’re considering intensive couples therapy because couples therapists assume an equality of good intention. That both people are there because they’re trying to improve the relationship. That’s part of how they train therapists. But in reality with emotional abuse, where it’s hidden, even from the victim. It’s really dangerous, and therapy becomes a tool for further manipulation and control. And that’s definitely what happened. The way I was able to gain awareness of the reality that what I was living with was abuse. Started when I discovered a large bag of marijuana in his backpack. While I helped my middle son look for something he had lost that my husband was mad about. And I was trying to help him avoid his dad’s ire by helping him look for this thing. I opened up my husband’s backpack, and there was a big bag of marijuana in there. And he had been saying in therapy, he wasn’t doing anything. He wasn’t looking at exploitative material. He wasn’t doing drugs, he wasn’t doing all the stuff. And I just lost it. Like I could not believe the level of deception I was still dealing with, and my husbands lying all the time. And so we had a big heated argument that night he did a lot of yelling. He’d obviously thought about, if he got caught, what he would do. PTSD & Realizations Cat: And he immediately redirected the conversation to the fact that he has an addiction problem with drugs and alcohol. This was news to me. I had no idea. I don’t think he actually, I mean, I think it’s more that he has a problem with entitlement. And if he wants to do something, he’s going to do it. Whether he said he won’t, or whether it’s harmful to others. So, he said, I’m going to start going to AA, I’m going to go, do all these 12-step things. My oldest son had done a wilderness therapy program, and we were still working with his therapist from that program. I also now understand that was a whole redirection away from my husband’s issues to scapegoat my child. But anyway, I called that therapist to tell him what was going on. And he said to me Cat, I think I’ve seen signs in you of PTSD in our family sessions. I think something’s going on and I recommend you look at, I think he gave me the name of a podcast, like the Betrayed and the something. And my ex husband started doing a men’s program and determined he had a problem lying. That was his problem. I was diagnosed with PTSD, or CPTSD. Anne: I’m going to jump in and say, that there’s the P in CPTSD, the post. Cat: Right. Anne: If he’s still yelling, lying, and raging around. It’s not post, it’s still happening. Cat: Right. Anne: If they’re going to diagnose us, which I have to tell you, I disagree with. I think they should look at us and say, you’re acting completely normal. You’re not diagnosed with anything. And it’s not post anything. You’re still experiencing abuse. Empty Pronouncements That He Would Stop Yelling & Lying Cat: Yes. He did that program. And we were still in constant contact. I look back now and all our text exchanges, and I can’t believe how much energy I put into explaining human decency to him for so long. He obviously knew, I mean, after that program, a few months later, he started another men’s program. And, then I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Then he finished the program, all the while making pronouncements to me, “Oh, I’m going to do this.” And “Here’s all of this.” And then he said he wanted a divorce. And the biggest tell to me was that I wasn’t even sad. I was sad about our family, and I was scared. There was a lot of fear, but I’ve never once missed him. Anne: Yeah, that is a good sign, or not. Cat: Yeah. Anne: It’s not a good sign, but that’s a sign. Cat: It’s very clear, yeah. Anne: Clarifying, I’m so glad you discovered that. I used to recommend men’s programs, and I don’t anymore because of this. Cat: Totally, through this program, my ex-husband found a way to manipulate through therapy language. He went to those AA meetings and 12-step program meetings. And would come home and disparage all the people in those meetings and say like, Oh, I’m not as bad as those guys. You know, comparing himself to how much better he was than all these other people at these AA meetings, but yet he would still use them to build up his ego and stuff. Anne: This is why it does not help them. They Don’t Believe His Yelling & Lying Is Abuse: Fooling Trained Therapists & Courts Cat: No, I don’t think anything would. I mean, even now he’s donning a new costume of healed or healing. Good dad, I know he dog whistles to all his enablers that this is my fault. Because his needs weren’t being met, he had to do what he did. And I even heard him say this through a year through the divorce and family court mediation. I know he even told the assigned family mediator he did what he did, so he didn’t hurt me. And she ate it up, and she’s a highly trained therapist, and she repeated his words to me. The institutions around therapy and the way therapists are trained. From family court, to the criminal court system, to social systems in general, are all designed to support the main characters, which are these privileged men. Anne: When they’ve learned the right things to say. And as long as they play the game right, they maintain their privilege and their power. Cat: Yeah, that’s right. Anne: It’s extremely discouraging. Cat: It is. I’ve just immersed myself in learning so much about it. I’m interested in Dr. Peter Salerno, and his books. Which say we have to stop trying to help these men. Anne: Yeah, this is exactly why I don’t recommend men’s programs anymore. Living Free Workshop Strategies Anne: Due to hearing this story over and over from women over the years. And my own struggle to be free from this type of manipulation. I discovered and created the strategies in my betrayal trauma workshop. In The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, 100 percent of the focus is on helping you. Does that mean I think he can’t change? I don’t think that’s my call to make, the only person I’m concerned about is you. The only help you need is to see his true character. You can observe from a safe distance to see if he will continue to lie and exploit. Or will he make different choices? The strategies give you enough space to see who he really is and what he’s going to do. Because with a therapy program, a men’s program, or a couple’s program, you don’t get the space you need to see him for who he really is. It just becomes an extension of his manipulation of you. You still have no way to protect yourself from his yelling and abusive behaviors. But the strategies in the what do after infidelity workshop enable you to create space for yourself to see his true character, because truth is the only way out of this. Cat: Right, that’s exactly right. That’s so good. Anne: Our local domestic violence coalition, instead of putting more money into helping victims. They decided to do a men’s program. And I’m like, don’t do it. Because they know what they’re doing. Hiding Patriarchy In Feminist Language Anne: I don’t know if you’re a fan of the Barbie movie. Cat: Yeah, I loved it. Anne: Ryan Gosling goes into that office building, and he’s in the lobby. I’m gonna do this scene for everyone. Ken says, I’ll take a high level, high paying job with influence, please. And the corporate man says, okay, then you’ll need at least an MBA, and a lot of our people have PhDs. Ken says, Isn’t being a man enough? And the corporate man says, actually, right now it’s the opposite. Ken says, You guys are clearly not doing patriarchy very well. And here’s the kicker. The corporate man says, no, no, we’re doing it well. Yeah, we just hide it better now. And that’s what you’re talking about. They’re hiding it in feminist language, but they’re not actually feminists. They don’t actually see women as equals. They want to hold on to their exploitative privilege. The part I loved about that movie is they know that. Cat: They do. And you know, that’s why the covert abusers are probably the most successful now. Because there are so few avenues still socially acceptable to exercise dominance and control. Anne: Right, yeah, and they’re getting good at it. So in court they intend to, and they know that they can dysregulate us by abusing us. Their intent in yelling to strike fear, to dysregulate us. So they can claim we’re crazy, and we look disheveled and freaked out because we are. Cat: Yeah, I was even very put together and calm and poised in all our family court meetings, with the judge. They said point blank, we don’t talk about anything that’s come before in here. Advocating For Children Cat: We only talk about how we’re moving forward, which is crazy to me. Knowing all the written admissions I had from him, I was not allowed to even present that. This is the twisted thing about family court. I was the only one showing up and advocating for the kids. He showed up and advocated for what he wanted from custody. And they said if I didn’t stop, I would be labeled a parental alienator. So I just said, okay, we’re just 50/50, we’re not 50/50. I have more custody, but yeah, it’s broken. I just want to say how grateful I am to Betrayal Trauma Recovery for really accelerating my healing. And giving me compassionate but radical acceptance. So that I could start to get myself to safety and my kids to safety. Anne: Cat, thank you so much for sharing your story.

Transcribed - Published: 1 July 2025

A husband’s lying, infidelity, gaslighting, and emotional abuse causes betrayal trauma. The effects can leave women feeling lost, confused, and unsafe. Understanding the 4 stages of betrayal trauma can help you process what’s happening and take meaningful steps toward healing. Most men who betray their wives are emotionally abusive. Before moving on, take our free emotional abuse quiz to see if you’re also experiencing emotional abuse. The 4 Stages Of Betrayal Trauma When a husband lies, cheats, or manipulates, it can make a woman feel stressed and worried. She might have trouble eating or sleeping. Betrayal can hurt a lot, but that’s why it’s so important to figure out what’s going on. Then, you can start to heal and feel better as soon as possible. Betrayal Trauma Stage 1: Confusion Long before a woman discovers her husband’s lies or infidelity, women feel confused and unsure about what’s wrong. If it happens to you, you usually know something feels off, but it’s hard to pinpoint exactly what. This is critical, because that unease is your intuition signaling that there’s an issue. Often, abusers contribute to this confusion by blaming you, making you feel like you’re the problem. Many women try couple therapy during this time, which doesn’t seem to help. Sometimes, trusted friends or professionals accidentally make things harder by giving simple advice. Like saying you should work harder on the relationship. During this time, it’s normal to feel confused and even blame yourself. However, it’s important to remember this: feeling confused means you are standing up to the abuse and trying to understand what’s really happening. Keep going, and don’t give up! To learn more about this type of psychological abuse, listen to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Betrayal Trauma Stage 2: Discovery of Lies & Infidelity When a woman finds out about her husband’s lies and infidelity, it’s a new type of trauma – and also a relief. They feel relieved that they discovered what’s wrong, but they’re often re-traumatized. Because the wrong kind of support can worsen the trauma. Most professionals don’t understand that emotional abuse and coercion are what’s causing the betrayal trauma. Instead, they blame women and say she is the cause. This can be confusing and frustrating. It’s imperative that you find the right help, because this stage of addiction recovery counseling or couple therapy will make things worse. Our daily, online Group Sessions are a safe place where only women will share their betrayal trauma experiences. We’d love to see you in a session today. Betrayal Trauma Stage 3: The Right Education When you finally get the right kind of support and education, the puzzle pieces begin to fit together. You’ll recognize betrayal trauma for what it is, and you’ll start to see abusive patterns for what they’ve been all along. You will see that lying and gaslighting are not your fault. These actions are done on purpose to hurt and control you. This is when many people stop blaming themselves. Then, they start setting rules to keep themselves safe, both emotionally and physically. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop helps women know exactly what’s going on and gives them safety strategies to protect themselves from this type of emotional and psychological abuse. Betrayal Trauma Stage 4: Safety Is The Treatment The final stage is applying what you’ve learned to gain more and more emotional and psychological safety. At BTR.ORG, we help survivors protect their thoughts from manipulation and trauma. First, you’ll learn how to create a safe life for yourself. This could mean leaving an abusive husband or building strong emotional boundaries. Next, you’ll start to see how strong and capable you are. Step by step, you’ll gain the tools to feel safe and in control again. Our coaches guide you step by step, so you feel calm and confident again. The 4 Stages Of Betrayal Trauma: Take The Next Step Betrayal trauma can feel really hard to handle, but you don’t have to face it by yourself. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we help women feel safe and start healing. No matter if you’re in a relationship, separated, or divorced, we have tools and resources to support you every step of the way. Transcript: What Are The 4 Stages Of Betrayal Trauma? Anne: It’s just me today, I’m going to talk about, the 4 stages of betrayal trauma. And how important it was to figure out how to set boundaries with my husband. That’s where the Living Free Workshop comes in. Because safety is the treatment. Women see that once they’re emotionally and psychologically safe, their betrayal trauma symptoms almost completely disappear. I started podcasting in 2016. A long time ago. If you look at the podcast feed, it doesn’t go back that far. And the reason it doesn’t go back that far is when I started podcasting, I learned in real time and shared my experience of attempting to get to safety. As I studied, I also did over 300 long form interviews with betrayal trauma victims, both on the podcast and in person. Through doing that, I began to see clear patterns. And I was also running my own experiments, seeing what worked and what didn’t in my own life. And seeing what was working and not working in other women’s situations. I learned the 4 stages of betrayal trauma. After discovering the Living Free strategies, I actually got to safety. And then I realized that many of these very old recordings also had incorrect information. Theories or principles that I was testing through trial and error that I now know do not work. I didn’t want to hurt any woman, so I removed that incorrect information. But today, I’m going to share several recordings from long ago, when I was still trying to learn how to apply the safety principles. You’ll hear a section where I talk about helping my son visualize his emotions. And those same types of visualizations are the pattern I later used to write in the workshop. I used that to help me heal, and has since helped so many other women heal from the inside out. Sharing Old Recordings Anne: As you listen to these old recordings, you’ll hear the seeds of all the services we have here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery being planted. And the rest of this episode is snippets from those old recordings. After seven years of attempting to “help my husband” deal with his addiction and his anger problems. He sprained my fingers and pushed me against the kitchen cabinets during an argument. He was arrested for domestic violence. The judge gave him a no contact order, which is a protective order. And that was the first time I’d ever conceived that he was really an abusive person. I waited, hoping for him to take accountability, change, truly repent and return home to us for nine months. And he decided to file for divorce. During that nine months, I prayed and prayed. And the only answer I received was to start a podcast, which is how this podcast started. I used to go by the name Anon, Anne Blythe is not my real name. My friend had a Facebook account with the name Anne Blythe. Named after Anne Blythe from Anne of Green Gables. I ended up adopting that name and that Facebook account to represent all of us, because my story is the universal story. The details might be a little bit different, but we all go through a period of trying to “help our husbands” or support him this is one of the first stages of betrayal trauma. The 4 Stages Of Betrayal Trauma: Gardening As A Metaphor Anne: I am an avid gardener. I have nine fruit trees, five 12 by two garden boxes, a huge section of my garden in my front yard, where I grow self-proclaimed prize winning pumpkins. On Monday, my five year old son and I planted the corn. It was such a sweet time. I dug the hole and he put the seed in. The obvious symbolism of faith that it takes to plant this seed so small and hope that in a few months we’ll have an eight foot stalk with delicious corn on it. All my garlic is growing great, and I planted that in the fall. So planting a little bulb that, the next year, will turn into the most delicious, rich, buttery garlic. It’s called Romanian Red, and it’s amazing, and you can’t get it at the store. In my front yard, I have irises and tiger lilies, canna lilies and salvia. Every kind of beautiful perennial you can imagine. Every year they get better, bigger, and more beautiful. It’s been almost three years since my ex’s arrest, and back then my front yard and all the perennials were kind of sad. It was like three irises that came up, but now they’re gorgeous. Everyone comments on how beautiful my garden is. I didn’t know that my garden would be so beautiful, but I had faith that it would be. And I dug things up, I split plants, and I moved things around. And had faith that my hard work would pay off, and it has. I have not yet seen the hard work pay off with my setting boundaries. Struggles Of Single Motherhood Anne: My life is still really hard. I’m a single mom of three kids. Life is hard every day. It’s hard to get dinner on the table. It’s hard to keep the house clean, it’s really stressful and very overwhelming. There are days when I sit on the couch and stare into space, and then end up crying because I’m overwhelmed. I’m still nervous about the future. I still don’t know exactly what’s gonna happen. But if my garden is any indication, as I stand there, especially my front yard with all the beautiful perennial flowers, I’m like, this feels safe, and this feels secure, and guess what else? Beautiful, I have faith that my life will be beautiful like that. My garden has evolved to be something amazing. Maybe I will evolve to be something amazing someday. Right now, it seems like I’m still digging around in the dirt with nothing to show for it. Talk about late bloomer, I’m like the world’s latest bloomer, ha ha. But maybe when I do, I’ll be like that big, beautiful iris. I want to talk about nightmares for a minute. My ex was supposedly in recovery, but I was still having nightmares. In the dreams, I was a single mom, and I knew I needed a husband. So I was like, there was that one guy I remember him. He was kind of nice. Where is he now? Why isn’t he here? And then I would try and find him and then I would find him and he would be kind of mean to me, brush me off. That was the nightmare. I had different forms of that all the time. Nightmares & Intuition Anne: I remember I would put my hand over on him and touch him, and be like, oh good. It was just a dream, whew, like every night. And then I would tell him about it, and I would say, I’m having these nightmares. I don’t know what’s wrong with me. Everything seems fine with us. One night when I was lying in bed right next to him, I said, I’ve been having these nightmares. Not knowing this was one of the 4 stages of betrayal trauma. I really feel like something bad’s gonna happen. And I didn’t pause to let him speak. I said, yeah, but it’s just crazy. It must just be me. I’m still mentally messed up. Well, he never said anything about it. But now that I look back, he not only didn’t say anything, and I talked myself out of it. But he also didn’t try and comfort me. There was a woman I talked to recently. She said, I’m having nightmares almost every night, but I wake up and look at him and everything’s fine. And I said, when you tell him about your nightmares, how far away is he? Is he standing more than four feet away from you? Looking at you, but not responding? She started crying. She said, that’s exactly what’s happening. Confusion is one of the 4 stages of betrayal trauma. I said, I’m not sure what’s going on. But an empathetic, caring, connected person would not be four or five feet away in that situation. They would be giving you a hug. They’d say, I’m so sorry you’re having these nightmares. I love you. I care about you. Is there anything I can do? Something, some kind of connecting, interacting thing. Stages Of Betrayal Trauma: Is Something Going On? Anne: But the standing like four or five feet away with this blank stare on your face, like a deer in the headlights. And more and more as I hear these stories of women who have these nightmares. And then, months later, they find out something was really going on. Even though in their waking hours it seemed like everything was fine. Not to say that everyone who has a nightmare, her husband is lying. Because thinking my husband was in recovery when he was not. He was lying to me and manipulating me. And I had those dreams. Now I see an indicator of a warning to me. Now that I’m disconnected from him. I rarely have those nightmares anymore. I have a friend whose husband has labeled her borderline and kept taking her in to get help. Her husband had been lying to her and gaslighting her, and he had a double life. Addiction was going on, and this was a way for him to avoid anyone looking at him and making her look crazy. There’s no way to actually recover if you’re still being abused like this. This friend of mine, she has now separated herself from her abusive spouse, and her borderline symptoms are gone. Now she’s having trauma symptoms. I have an unnamed autoimmune disorder. It’s not lupus, it’s not arthritis. I’ve been trying to get a diagnosis for a long time. I get super, super sleepy and all of my joints hurt really bad. So it has a lot of the same characteristics of these autoimmune diseases. So the doctors are like, yep, you have one. We don’t know what it is, it’s unnamed. And we should call it the betrayal trauma autoimmune disorder. Therapy & Being Present Anne: I have spent so much time and money going to therapists, but not getting help for my trauma symptoms. I am paying them to sit there in their office and educate them about betrayal trauma. There was one therapist, it was like three months after my husband’s arrest. I was trying to convince her that my husband was abusive. It was crazy, wait a minute, what am I doing? I’m not going to her anymore. And I think she was confused because I didn’t want to divorce. So she was like, you’re saying your husband’s abusive, but you don’t want to get a divorce. Like, I don’t know how to help you. Yes, he’s abusive, I don’t want to get a divorce, and I need help. Like, can you accept me where I am? And she had no idea how to help me. Part of my betrayal trauma symptoms were that I did not hear my children when they were talking to me. And I wasn’t doing anything else. So I was available, and ready and willing to talk to them, but just didn’t hear them until they had said my name a few times. And then I was like, Oh, yeah, what is it? So zoning out, I found myself doing that frequently. So if I’m having a hard time concentrating. I feel the couch, maybe feel the couch fabric, maybe even touch my child’s arm, something that I can reconnect with the present moment. I actually sat on the couch with my five year old son, and we just sat there for like, probably a half hour. And he was spouting off. I didn’t even know what he was talking about. Striving For Peace & Stillness Anne: I was listening to him. And I was acknowledging him. I was looking him in the eyes. I was like, let’s have a stare contest. And we just looked at each other and smiled for a while. And it was just that I thought, Oh, this is what I’m trying to do. Okay, I’m going to be in the here and now with my daughter. And I’ll be available to you. That’s, I think my biggest hurdle is, I’ve sat here with her for four minutes, and this is boring and I need to do the dishes. That’s what I’m struggling with the most right now. When I stop and stare at my daughter, I think, how long do I have to do this for? I want to get better at it and more practiced. Until that is what I crave, those quiet moments with my children, and living in that moment with peace and stillness. And also, my soul needs that every day. We need a period of time of quiet, both spending time with ourselves in a quiet place, and spending time with the people that we love. Visualization & Healing From Betrayal Trauma Anne: I’ve actually been doing visualization with my son every night about his emotions and his anger, and where he’s going to put it. One of the things we imagined was that he put all his feelings about how he doesn’t want to do his schoolwork. Like, I don’t want to do my work. I hate doing schoolwork, you know, that sort of thing in a box. And then if he was holding that box, could he pick up his pencil? to do his schoolwork. And he was like, no, I can’t. So I said, well, where do you want to put the box? And he’s like, Oh, I’m just going to put it over here. And then he was like, Oh, mom, I can do my assignment now. He has improved significantly in his schoolwork. So using a betrayal meditation or visualization as a tool is an option for healing from betrayal trauma because I have used visualization before to be able to connect with my children. Since that time, I haven’t solved all my problems. But in relation to my abusive ex husband, who abused me post divorce for eight years. I’m completely delivered from him, and so are my children. And I did this through the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop Strategies. I spent so much time and effort putting everything I learned over the years into that workshop, Applying those strategies and having those strategies deliver us was for sure the miracle I had been praying for. And I hope you find all the strategies to be the miracle you’ve been praying for too.

Published: 24 June 2025

Did you recently discover you husband flirting with women online or using pornography? Are you confused, hurt, devastated, and afraid? If your wondering “Is online infidelity cheating?”, here are 7 things you need to know based on the research. Did you know that online cheating is a form of emotional abuse? To see if you’re experiencing any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz. 1. Sometimes What You Discovered Is Just The Tip Of The Iceberg It can be really upsetting to find out your husband is talking to other women online or committing online infidelity. Learning about his lies and secret life might make you feel a mix of emotions like anger, sadness, confusion, and betrayal. You might wonder, “Why did he do this?” or “Am I not enough?” Online infidelity is cheating. These feelings are normal, and it’s important to let yourself feel them. Take it one step at a time, and don’t feel guilty for how you feel. This level of deception is a form of intimate partner violence that includes emotional & psychological abuse and coercion. There’s no right way to react to this level of emotional and psychological abuse you’ve experienced up to this point. There’s also no wrong way to react. When it happened to me, I vacillated between wanting to be close to my husband and never wanting to see him again. 2. Online Infidelity: Many Women Have Discovered Their Husband’s Lies Realizing that your husband has been lying to you about how he uses his time or what he does online is shocking. Seeking support from others who understand your situation can make a world of difference. Consider a support group, like those offered by Betrayal Trauma Recovery, where you can connect with women who’ve experienced this type of emotional abuse. Don’t get support anywhere that doesn’t consider this a serious emotional and psychological abuse issue. The significant trauma you’re experiencing is real. You deserve a safe place to process your trauma, without having to do anything for a man who’s been lying to you. 3. Is Online Infielity Cheating? It’s Not Your Fault One of the first thoughts you might have is, “What did I do wrong?” But it’s essential to understand that your husband’s online behavior isn’t a reflection of your worth. His choice to view explicit content stems from his exploitative privilege, not from any failing on your part. Yes, online infidelity is cheating. seeing the situation accurately is crucial to begin making your way to emotional safety. 4. Learn What It Means To Be Psychologically Safe Psychological safety means those around you value honesty. If you’re psychologically safe with your husband, that means he never deceives you or obscures the truth to construct a false reality. Establishing psychological safety from someone who has shown a history of deceit is important. The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast helped me more than anything. I wish I would have found it sooner. I couldn’t believe how helpful it was. 5. Focus On Self-Care Amidst the chaos, it’s crucial to take care of yourself. Prioritize activities that make you feel good and distract you from the pain. Whether it’s reading a book, going for a walk, or spending time with friends, self-care is essential for your healing process. I watched all seven seasons of the Golden Girls, and I gardened. Anything that helps you is what you need. 6. Is Online Infidelity Cheating? Learn Effective Emotional Safety Strategies Most women who experience this don’t know exactly what to do. Many turn to couple therapy, addiction recovery therapy, or clergy for help. Therapists and clergy don’t receive training in this type of abuse. They often prolong a woman’s suffering. To learn effective strategies and know what to do next, I enrolled in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. It changed my life. I have no idea what I would have done without learning the safety strategies. 7. Only Seek Professional Help From Women Who Understand This Type of Abuse Navigating the emotional turmoil of discovering your husband’s online infidelity can be overwhelming. Betrayal Trauma Recovery will help you walk through the chaos. Transcript: Is Online Infidelity Cheating? Anne: Heidi Hastings and Rebecca Lucero Jones, two researchers are back on the podcast today. They’re going to share the results of two studies. Study 1: Impact of Partner’s Online Infidelity on Women’s Religiosity Anne: The first is how their partner’s online infidelity affects women’s religiosity and spirituality. Study 2: Impact of Partner’s Online Infidelity on Women’s Sexuality Anne: And then the results of when they studied how a partner’s online infidelity affected a woman’s sexuality. Their research revealed some interesting things about online infidelity, otherwise known as pornography use. Online Cheating? Detailed Findings On Women’s Religiosity Anne: So Heidi and Rebecca, you studied how husband’s use affects women’s religiosity and spirituality. Can you share what you found? Heidi: People taught them the husband is the leader in the home. They felt unsettled looking back on it, how that had actually put them at risk, or they’d given up their whole identity to serve him. And gender roles also within religion were disturbing to them that their role as a woman, as the wife in the home, was really dismissed. Tracy, a participant, looked at gender roles in scripture. And she referred to the story of Queen Esther in the Old Testament. She said it’s not just the theme of strong women and saving the Jewish people in Persia. To me, the biggest theme is that men have always behaved badly with male entitlement, and that has been destructive to women. And women decided to stay in the marriage because of their religion. For some women, that was because they had honored their marital vows. They were trying so hard to keep their part of the vows, regardless of what had happened. And staying in the marriage for the sake of religion didn’t mean they were healed or had a positive marital relationship. Many of them stayed in the marriage, and they were sleeping in different bedrooms or on different stories of the house. In order to make things work economically and keep their vows in what way they could. But there were some women grateful that they had stayed in the relationship. Because of their commitments to their religion, because they healed the marriage eventually, Varied Outcomes In Marriages Heidi: Some who lived with this issue for a long time, the length of time since their discovery varied from nine months to two or three decades. Still had terrible marriages. We had many outcomes. About a third stayed married, and were happy with it. About a third stayed married, and were not happy with it. And about a third were divorced. Anne: That answers my question. Because a lot of times I’ll interview them and they’re like, I did this program. It was incredible. He’s doing great. Our marriage is better. And then they’ll come back three years later and say, oh my word, he was lying to me the entire time, it was all grooming. I found something else. I’ve also found when a couple goes to therapy and they think that they’re successful, and the therapist thinks they’re successful, and it’s like, oh, awesome. And then they don’t go to therapy anymore. And then If she finds out he was lying that entire time, they were going to that particular therapist. That they don’t go back to that same therapist, so they go to a different one. So that therapist would never know that he lied the whole time and was manipulating. They usually don’t circle back around to the same people they sought help from in the first place. They usually move on because they think like, well, that didn’t work. Rebecca: Yeah, as a therapist, it is tricky to work with any type of infidelity or deception, because you don’t know if people are telling the truth. Clients lied to me many times. The wife may ask herself is online infidelity cheating? Challenges With Therapists Rebecca: It would be embarrassing to come back to the therapist and admit you’ve lied. And it could be the husband doing a power play to not return to the therapist. Anne: Yeah, over seven years, we went to four different therapists, but I think going to multiple therapists is common. Was that a question in any of your studies? Heidi: It was not, but several of the women brought that up. They went to therapists who didn’t help them. Who didn’t understand betrayal trauma. Who blamed them, or they felt disconnected from, and that was more harmful. And so they talked about switching therapists multiple times, without me asking anything about that. So one of the other things that was big in the women wrestling with their religion was unmet expectations of religious leaders. So they thought their religious leader could fix the problem. You know, all he needed to do was talk to his religious leader, and somehow it would be fixed. They thought the religious leader would at least hold him accountable. Women felt disenfranchised when that didn’t happen. When clergy let husbands off easily. The wives thought it was. And who knows, if he told them everything or just minimized it. Religious leaders gave them poor advice, because they didn’t understand the woman’s perspective of betrayal. And they felt like there were often dismissive attitudes. Online Infidelity: Ruth & Nicole Heidi: A woman named Ruth said, a bishop has got to be able to get him to stop and tell him that he can’t do this anymore. Then everything will be okay. Nicole said, my religion didn’t give me the tools I needed to put my foot down earlier. This is my marriage too. You don’t get to be the authority on me if you’re acting in sin. A religious leader that tells me I need to have it with my husband more, and that’s how I’m going to help him stop online infidelity, is not speaking for Christ. She’s not speaking the Bible. She told me the story she heard. Anne: Whoa, did you just say a woman religious leader? Who is causing marital coercion? Heidi: Uh huh. Yeah, we had, we had several women that had women religious leaders. Anne: And they weren’t better, huh? Heidi: Not when they were speaking from tradition. This finding is that those wrestling with religion, who’d felt overlooked, ignored, dismissed and silenced by a leader. The resources all went to her husband, rather than resources going to support her. Rather than the leader regularly meeting with her, it was with her husband. So women experienced a sense of disenfranchisement with the expectations they had of their religious leader. Which they often projected onto the religion. And they’re like, I don’t know what I believe anymore. Not all of them, but definitely some of them. And then they had these challenges to their faith. Because they felt their religious leader was linked to God or called by God. They pulled away from their church, a few of them, not a lot of them. One woman changed several times. Women Wrestling With Religion Heidi: She started as a fundamentalist Christian, a very, very, very fundamentalist conservative. Her pseudonym is Colette. She said, “All these people promised me in church that your virginity is the best gift you can ever give to your husband. Such bull*# and I don’t swear.” That’s a quote. She was like, I can’t believe how my leader taught me to serve, to do everything for him, and it put her in such a dangerous place. So she changed religion several times. Another woman, Esther said, we pulled away from the church. I didn’t pray or look to God for anything. Serafina said, “I don’t go to the synagogue anymore. That loss is profound. I have so many rabbis and cantors with problematic behaviors as clients, and she’s a therapist now. She said, it just feels so hypocritical. Rituals are important to me. What isn’t important to me is sitting and listening to a rabbi. Those who struggled with religion and left religion were a smaller percentage of our sample, but several struggled with multiple aspects of religion based on those things. Rebecca, do you want to take the next theme? Rebecca: Yeah, I’m going to talk about a few different aspects of healing and what kinds of relationships were helpful. This is key. Because when a woman experiences betrayal trauma, many times women would first seek guidance from religious leaders, rather than secular sources. And I think a lot of this is based on the assumption that if you have a shared belief that online infidelity is a sin, and online infidelity is cheating? Definitely yes. You would get better support. Support From Inside The Religion Rebecca: And if you go to a secular source, that they may not share that belief with you. That your partner’s belief, you know, online infidelity would be harmful to you. The view of, is online infidelity is cheating. So it was important for them to seek support from someone who shared that, I would say worldview. We found that those professionals and religious leaders who really tended to the intersectional nature of these women’s identity. Meaning that their female identity was not the only identity they had. But also their religious identity. That it was important that they understood what it meant to have both of these identities at the same time, right? Be a religious woman, and that tending to both aspects of their identity was critical to helping these women heal. And also, I would say, find their own power. So one area that was important was support from inside the religion. So we talked about how sometimes religious leaders didn’t meet expectations. But when a religious leader was helpful to them, that was key, right? If they could show compassion, empathy and validation, this ended up being a safe place for them to share their experiences. It’s important that religious leaders show compassion and empathy. When a woman shares that this is happening in the marriage, right? That her partner has extramarital behaviors. And she, a lot of times, doesn’t quite know how to interpret what’s happening. We had one woman who shared this beautiful response that her rabbi had. Tracy shared: she, meaning the rabbi took me to the mikvah. There’s a river that flows out of the Garden of Eden. Is Online Infidelity Cheating? A Listening Rabbi’s Response Rebecca: And when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden, they were so disconsolate and so despairing. They went and sat in that river weeping. The Mikvah is the sacred immersion in the living waters that flow from the Garden of Eden. And can be used anytime you want to reconnect to sources of renewal and creation. After the pollution that had happened to me, we went to the mikvah. There are very specific prayers. You must be completely naked. You’re immersing yourself back into the waters of creation for purposes of rebirth and renewal. That was wonderful. And so we loved that story Tracy shared. Because here we see a rabbi seriously hearing what she has to say. Recognizing that this woman needed rebirth, of some sort of renewal. She felt so broken by her experience. And so I think that’s a beautiful story of how religion or religious rituals can heal. When leaders listen and understand the experience of the woman. The next part is to recognize the need for support outside the religion. So this was also helpful when religious leaders understood, I would say, the extent of their expertise. When a woman shares this, she often only knows the tip of the iceberg. She’s coming in crisis. So again, she hasn’t had the time to process all the things in the history where she may have felt or sensed something. She really, I would say, most of the time doesn’t know fully what she’s dealing with the fact that online infidelity is cheating. And plus, her husband has made concerted efforts to deceive her, and she may never know the full extent of what’s going on. Support From Outside The Religion Rebecca: So when a religious leader gives advice based on one thing, she shares. Women in our study talked about how, if they couldn’t accept the statement I said about my partner emotionally abusing me. I certainly wasn’t going to tell them about the abuse. Heidi: They kind of dip their toe in to see. Rebecca: Yes, a lot. Anne: If he’ll be empathetic about this, then I could tell him more, kind of a thing. Heidi: Right, and so those who were met with compassion. Rebecca: Yeah, so they would test whether they could trust a leader. One of the women, Nicole, said it was important that she began to understand. That what she was seeing with her partner was much more serious than just oh, I just looked at a website. It is a a breach of trust and online infidelity is betrayal. She talked about her husband’s problem and said he watched it while he was driving, which is why he got in a car accident. He had five car accidents, and three were while watching it. He doesn’t learn. That’s why I tell him it’s not a sin. It’s an addiction, because no person is this dumb. As she learned more, she realized this is beyond the limits of a pastor. It’s dangerous. This finding, in particular, was interesting to me and Heidi, and it was that women need women for healing. What we found was that there was a lot of shame when somebody found out their husband was committing online infidelity. And sometimes some of these women, their husbands, had other behaviors that were extramarital. And one of the things that helped these women was finding older women within their religious tradition. Women Need Women For Healing Rebecca: Sometimes they had female leaders, though that wasn’t as common. Older women in the church mentored Noelle and helped her get through it. And that was one way that women went around the structure in a religion where you see many male leaders. Another one Betsy, talked about building a support system with multiple women, including a coach, a support group, and friends. So she built herself a little village of women that could support her. And she said, it was so beautiful to have a woman cheer for me, support me and delight in my achievements, and just be fine with all my mess. That shows the beauty of healing with other women in your corner. Hearing other people with a similar experience who have also been on this same journey. And learning about how they’ve navigated their faith, how they’ve navigated their healing. That is a key part of many women’s healing. One of our participants, Faith shared, I was like, somebody understands. And the best thing was that I could see that people were farther along in the recovery. I want to die right now, but I might be okay after this is done. That captures how these groups give people hope for the future. And as a professional, I think it’s important for therapists to know that therapy may not provide the same level of hope. That you get in a group setting. So I think encouraging clients to find, it could be online or in person, support groups can be important as she moves through this experience of figuring out is online infidelity a betrayal, and what about other behaviors? Online Infidelity: Comfort From Thinking About A Female Counterpart Heidi: Which we know you do, Anne, with Betrayal Trauma Recovery, so thank you for your work there. Anne: Our daily support groups, yes. Rebecca: Yeah totally. The last thing that women talked about in reference to women needing women for healing. Was how comforting it was to think about a female counterpart. To the male god commonly discussed and worshiped in their own religion. And one of our participants, Tiffany, described how this was for her. She said she started collecting art and studying Heavenly Mother. And how that was healing. Tracy talked about how Judaism’s religious roots elevate women as equals and unified relationships with men. She explained that some words in Hebrew for God combined the masculine and the feminine. The term El Shaddai means breasts. And El, a Hebrew name for God, is directly derived from the name of the chief Canaanite male God represented by the bulls. So you have the merging of the masculine and the feminine, often translated as God Almighty, the compassionate, strong, powerful God, the masculine and the feminine together. It’s a religious belief that brought many women comfort to think about this feminine God. As someone who could understand her pain. It was very difficult with the traditional rhetoric in many religions, which may not necessarily deny the idea of a feminine God, but often leave it out in the discussions. And in terms of what they promote when they talk about God. But it’s interesting that many people, even within the religious tradition. That there was room for some sort of feminine God. And that this was a significant part of their healing was turning to this feminine God. Three Different Religions, Same Idea Rebecca: Rather than a masculine God that they often felt wouldn’t understand the level of pain they were experiencing. Heidi: About 10 percent of the women that spoke about this, but we felt like it was an interesting finding because they came from three different religions. I’m just going to read this quote. Colette said, “God is male and female. A group of pastors came here to hear me speak one time, and I made them read from the passage of the creation of Genesis. Where it says three times, in his image and likeness. Male and female, he created them. I said, what does that say about the nature of God? One pastor said if that’s true, it changes everything. And I said, it is true, and it does change everything. Anne: Oh, you’ve handpicked all the parts of the Bible that benefit you, but these parts you’re like, what? This is new to me. Okay. It’s been there the whole time. Heidi: And it’s a pastor. So we loved the last theme, spiritual growth, because we don’t want women who are just entering this phase. And just starting to listen maybe to your podcast, to think that the pain and heartache are all gone. Online infidelity that they’re going to experience with this, besides the trauma, when we asked the women, how have you changed? Their answers floored us. They were not what we thought, but many of the women got really emotional during that question. Spiritual Growth & Transformation Heidi: When they started talking about their most intimate spiritual moments. Many of them came with a deeper faith, with strengthened relationships with God, who truly transformed them into new people. With a new identity, a new, better version of themselves. They felt divine assistance from God. Sometimes they were very suicidal, more than half talked about being suicidal without us ever asking any questions about it. And often in that moment, they felt God would bring miracles. Some would have dreams, or could hear a voice or feel someone next to them. And that just gave them hope and kept them going. They had people come into their lives or resources come into their lives. I remember driving back from church late one night. It was dark, and the tears were pouring down my face. The only way I made it home was through the grace of God and his mighty protection. I felt his presence on my right shoulder, and I remember pleading with God and praying, just take me away. So I don’t have to feel this pain anymore. And he told me it’s not time yet. It’s not time. And she said, God is there. He’s watching and powerful. So through these personal experiences, the women found meaning in their adversity and experience, at least sometimes of peace. And many, many of them gained personal relationships with God that they didn’t have before. Previously, their experience with religion was more focused on the rituals of going to church or reading scriptures. Which many of them kept. However, they deconstructed their faith, and then built it up again. Online Infidelity: Focusing More On God Than Their Religion Heidi: They focused more on God than on the religion. And they use the religion as a scaffolding to help them come to God. They learned to trust God to seek help, strength and support. Anne: What percentage of women chose to leave faith altogether from your study? Heidi: Two and one said she was coming back. Several did leave religion for a time, but then came back. when they had figured out their own way to reconstruct it. Either by completely changing religions, congregations, places of worship, or by changing their own perspective of the role of their own religion. Every one of them found their husband was unreliable and dishonest, and they could not trust him because online infidelity. And so in many cases, they started looking to God for truth, not to their husbands. They detached from their husbands and put God more in that central role, often. They found a deeper need for God. Tiffany talked about her experience with the nature of God completely changing. She said, I don’t even know who that God was that I believed in before. Because I have a whole new experience, which is stronger, brighter, bigger, and more abundant than ever. I’ve learned that Christ’s capacity to know my individual, unique, deep feelings of loss occured. The hurt, pain, confusion, all the things, is so real. The last thing that the women talked about in this spiritual transformation was recognizing The spiritual, emotional and intellectual growth changed who they were. Finding Worth & A Voice Heidi: Several even talked about being grateful for the experiences they had. Not all the women, but many of them, said those experiences gave them newfound confidence in themselves. They could speak, which many of them had silenced themselves. And especially, they spoke often about it, about betrayal of any kind including online infidelity. Zena said, the biggest thing I’ve learned is discovering myself. I truly didn’t know who I was, that I am a child of God. I have worth and I have a voice, and he wants me to use it. I’m not the same person I was before. I’m a new creation in God’s eyes. The women reported also through all that personal shame they had experienced. Working through that with the help of support groups, and learning to have more grace for themselves. Because so many blamed themselves for the whole experience. That they weren’t good enough, that they weren’t adequate enough to keep their husband tied to them. They found purpose in their suffering and went on a mission. Many of them help other women navigate similar trials, which I think you have done. And I love that so much. I just wanted to share one last quote from a woman named Cassie. She talked about taking complete responsibility for her spirituality, rather than relying on other people. She said, I had to learn to define faith, taking out all the middlemen and the structure. This is between me and God. While I say I still believe in having a church structure. I still see the value, but what I thought it would do for me is not what it did for me. So I had to learn to take a lot more personal responsibility for that. Finding Purpose In Suffering Rebecca: I know many of our participants said they were grateful for the experience because of who they ended up becoming due to this life crisis. I would say, I’m not going to negate that that’s the experience. But suffering in and of itself doesn’t create that person. It’s important that these women understand that they have that outcome, because they built that. In the face of immense suffering, they chose to see purpose in their suffering. They chose to find a way to take something awful, the worst thing that has ever happened to these women for most of them. And make something beautiful grow from that. And it’s important that the women understand that is something they did themselves. I just hate the thought of thinking that we have to suffer to become those people. But I think those women always had it in them. And that when they’re faced with a crisis, they were able to cultivate that in themselves. Anne: I thought that for a while, and so many women do, it’s like I deserve this because I was such a terrible person. Somehow, before that, God wanted to give me this, because only such a terrible trial would transform such a bad person. Like me into the person he wanted me to be. That’s what I would hear. But you were a wonderful person. You are a wonderful person. You didn’t bring this suffering upon yourself. He cheated online and it isn’t your fault. Betrayal trauma from infidelity is so difficult. Because you needed to be transformed. They’ll come out stronger, but not because they needed to and not because they were weak originally right? Heidi: Right? Anne: All of my insights are anecdotal from interviewing people for the last eight years. It’s awesome to have them in an actual published study. Study 2: Impact of Online infidelity On Women Anne: So you did another study on how a husband’s online infidelity use affects his wife’s sexuality. So can you talk about the themes that came up in that study? Rebecca: So when we published this study, we only had a Christian population. It’s important to note that it is very traumatic to discover this. Often they’ve been led to believe their husband was not viewing it or that he did not have a problem with this, and this is very. I would say psychologically taxing on a woman. She has physiological symptoms, psychological symptoms. Many times women talked about not being able to speak for a period, like literally becoming mute for a short period. They talked about dissociating, feeling nausea, insomnia, suicidal ideation, shame. Many women describe it as the floor falling out from underneath them. Feeling disbelief and shock, feeling frozen, really questioning what they were seeing. This is a trauma response, all signs point to a traumatic response in their body. Anne: They’re not just discovering the it, cheating? They’re also discovering his lack of integrity. So they’re also discovering that he’s a liar at the same time. Online infidelity is just as damaging as a physical affair. Rebecca: Yes, walking in and seeing the man in the midst of viewing something was very traumatic. Sometimes women find garbage bags and garbage bags of explicit content, right? So sometimes they’re also discovering the sheer volume of what has happened. And that would be overwhelming for a woman. Who did not have any inkling that her husband had behaviors outside the marriage. Participant Testimony: Zena’s Story Rebecca: I wanna share a quote from Zena, one of our participants. She said that on D-day, that changed everything in my life. It shattered my heart to a million pieces, changed my foundation of what I was standing on. I was in shock. Once you find out news like that, it takes you a while to connect your feelings to your mind. I wasn’t able to process that, and rightly, how can you? It was very traumatic. But I didn’t react in rage. I didn’t understand. Why would you do such things? I was at a total loss. It was just too much dumped on me at one time to make any sense of that. I want to discuss that because I think it’s important to understand exactly what it’s like to discover, to then have the context for what happens to her. For some women, women had intensified desire following discovery. And this increase in desire was described by having three primary motivations. One was to control the husband’s use. One was to protect the relationship. Or it was to self soothe. And so a lot of this emotional response of any of these motivations often resulted in the woman feeling a little confused. So Tiffany described, even though I was so shattered, I felt this intense desire. Later I read, it’s typical. People will go one of two directions, either hyper or not at all. So I was like, let’s just be together all the time. Then we spent time in cycles based on how much I trusted him, until we got to a point where we mostly weren’t physical. Seeking Safety Through Intimacy Rebecca: So we noticed that some women would describe this as a similar experience of becoming hyper Now, if you are experiencing PTSD, you are in a high arousal state. An anxious state and arousal doesn’t necessarily discriminate. So to me, physiologically, it is not surprising that women who are experiencing PTSD and a symptom of arousal would also feel heightened at the same time. Anne: I think it’s also a form of resistance, and when I say that, what I mean is they want safety and security. That is generally women’s primary motivation. They have faced this extremely dangerous situation, and the danger is coming from the person they’re supposed to rely on. So it’s confusing. But I just want to give women a lot of credit that they’re trying to be safe, and they think the safest thing to do is “meet their husband’s needs.” They are trying to stop the online infidelity. Society has said maybe a therapist or maybe clergy has told her this. And she might be thinking, Oh, they were right, I didn’t give him enough. And that’s just the manipulation that these type of abusers tell their wives. To get them to have it with them when they’re lying, so you can see how this becomes more problematic. Rebecca: I think that’s a great point. I think a lot of times when we maybe don’t have power in a situation. We would rather blame ourselves and think that we have control over an issue. Than acknowledge that maybe someone is abusing us. So in some ways it’s like, if maybe this has happened because I didn’t have it with him enough. If I have more I can control this. Religious Influences and Ideas about online infidelity Rebecca: We hope to fix it. Like you said, we hope to create the safety we’re looking for. Because it would be so uncomfortable to think that our partner is not safe. I think it’s much more difficult to make the leap to, this person is misusing power against me, and this has nothing to do with me. I think that’s a bigger psychological leap. So I appreciate Anne, you sharing that. Because I was just going to share a quote from one of our participants. Samantha, that said, I want to make sure he gets what he needs from me in that department, so he doesn’t go looking again. And so you see that is a lot of women’s first reaction. if I give him enough, then he won’t need this other thing, Like we talked about in the study. On how women’s religiosity and spirituality were affected by their partner’s online infidelity and betrayal. We also saw some of those beliefs being iterated by religious leaders. You need to have more with him. If you do this, he won’t have this problem. And so you can see that there’s a lot of context for her believing such a statement or behaving in such a way. It’s pretty much been programmed in her to think that she is the one that will fix this. Anne: It’s also programmed in him. So many men in religious settings are told marriage is the solution to your problem. So if you’ve got a problem, you need to get married as soon as possible. And so that’s part of the abuse problem, she’s just a drug to him. Shutdown & Asexuality Anne: She’s not a person, so then she becomes the target of all of his angst. If he doesn’t feel “satisfied” because she was supposed to solve all of his problems. Rebecca: Yes, so the next sub theme we had was being shut down. So some women talked about having a hyper response, and then other women were shut down. When they discovered they just completely closed off to their husbands, right? They couldn’t, in no way, be open to that. So many times following the discovery. They would say things like, get out, don’t touch me, don’t get near me. Some women wondered if they were asexual right after the discovery, wondering if they’d ever been interested in it. Other women talked about realizing that the motivation for it seemed to always come from a sense of duty. And so we see women trying to understand maybe a lack of desire. After discovering that their husband had essentially a secret life. Anne: Yeah, which is coercion. Rebecca: Consent is fairly new. Unfortunately, the emphasis on consent is very new. We have a long history of women being obligated to men to please them. Even with a few lessons on consent, it doesn’t reverse the social ramifications for not abiding by those cultural scripts. So now we’re going to turn to our second theme, Heidi, do you want to take it away? Heidi: Sure. This theme builds upon the idea of the women were struggling with the loss of their identity or trying to understand what was going on with their bodies. Religious Lens On Body Image Heidi: And it’s interesting to look at this perspective from a religious lens. Because there’s research that shows religiosity actually acts as a protective factor in the development of positive body image for many women. But in the case of betrayal, it did the opposite. So many women in our study indicated their sense of identity and self worth was completely shattered with the thought of their husband committing online infidelity and cheating. Their thoughts and feelings surrounded comparing themselves to either what they saw in the explicit content. Or what they imagined might be in it. Or in the extramarital partners when that was the case. And experiencing shame about their own body. That comparison happened not only for the women comparing themselves to what they thought the women would look like or did look like. But some men would actually say, this is Gwen making the statement. Her husband said, I see you as beautiful now, but compared to explicit content, of course not. And just hearing those words devastated her. She said, my world had turned upside down. Anne: Mm hmm, well, and can you imagine the psychological abuse before that. She didn’t know about the it or affair partners, and he said, I’m not into it because I’m not as attracted to you as I used to be. And so her reality is that she’s just not attractive, and that’s what’s causing him to not want to be intimate with her. When she’s not aware that he’s masturbating to explicit content. And he can’t, because he’s already done it three times that day. Online Infidelity & Self-Esteem Anne: Even if they tried to be intimate, he couldn’t do it. That level of psychological abuse is extremely intense. Wrapping your head around, my husband was willing to let me think I’m some disgusting hag. So he had an excuse for why he couldn’t get it up. This is another reason why online infidelity is cheating. Heidi: Right exactly, that huge hit it took on their body image. Faith was one of the women in our study, she was a middle aged woman. She initially thought her husband’s use was “because I’m old, I sag and I have stretch marks.” And Mary a young Latina woman, said that her struggles with her body image came because she knew she didn’t have a model size body. We did have two women in our study who had plastic surgery. One was so sick for so long after that, and the other woman Anna said I don’t look at myself anymore. I don’t let myself take pictures and don’t think my body is attractive at all. I actually got a breast reduction at the beginning of last year for medical reasons. And I doubted myself so much, because basically he told me he would never look at me the same. And I was never going to be big enough anymore. Ever since then, I feel like there’s just too many scars on my body. There’s too much now for anybody to ever want that anymore. Astra had weight loss surgery, and she said, I can’t blame his addiction for my weight problem. That was obviously something I have a problem with, but then I can’t blame his addiction for making me have the surgery. But I definitely did have the surgery, because I felt less than and unloved, abandoned and extremely undesirable. Struggles With Self-Worth Heidi: So this takes a huge hit, then also on their self esteem. Both struggled after the surgery in many ways. In Astra’s case, she ended up for eight years, having medical complications related to that decision. And then later on, she found out her husband had been looking at images of large women. She’s like, what? I don’t, I don’t get this. Overall self esteem takes a hit, and they felt they were not enough. If they had been, they could control the situation. So some studies I’ve seen show that it takes a woman sometimes at least a couple of years to learn how to climax. One woman named Cassie’s husband was so upset about her inability to achieve orgasm within that first year. That he sent her to a therapist to figure out what was wrong with her and what was wrong with her body, because she wasn’t satisfying him. Anne: She wasn’t satisfying him by not having her own orgasm? Heidi: That’s what he was saying. yes. That’s how he described it. She said, I felt so deeply that rejection of I’m not, it was so directly tied to my performance and so directly tied to my worth. And my value as a person and in the marriage. So that rejection, again, you’re talking about layer upon layer of hurt that comes from this. The woman named Faith said, I have this past trauma. I wanted to call the shots, and I wanted to be in charge of my own body and say, it’s not okay with me. I don’t want to do that right now, but he’d just get so mad. And I’m like, fine, just do whatever you want, which is very unhealthy. And I know that. Marital Abuse Heidi: So, her experience demonstrates that women wanted to control their own body. But it impacted it and their belief about themselves in such sad, really severe ways. Several later identified marital coercion. Anne: I was thinking about an episode I did on abuse. I talked about a church leader who was giving a church talk about how non-consensual immorality was wrong. And I thought there’s a word for that. It’s rape. I think many people worry about using that word because of reporting. For some reason, if you say it, then it follows that you maybe have to report, and I’ve never talked to one woman remotely thinking about reporting. They’re not going to report, and whether they should report is a totally different discussion. But it’s interesting to me that other people put the two together when victims don’t necessarily. Victims are like, now I know what I’m dealing with. But I think therapists or clergy worry about the reporting thing. And rather than being worried about reporting, focus on what happened. How would you feel the most safe in your body, in your home? What would you like to do? How can we help you? That discussion is one that I think every woman is entitled to have without anybody thinking. I don’t want to say that. Because then what if she goes and reports it? Heidi: That is true. And in addition to that, I feel like for the religious leaders to, at the same time, be aware that it may not just be that one situation. Online Infidelity Causes Complex Trauma Heidi: It may be this complex trauma situation that’s digging up a host of things that often she never told anybody about. And so asking questions about that is important. Anne: And what makes it complex? Just go one step further. What was the complexity caused by? People don’t quite lean into that. Because they’re like, I always wonder, why are they willing to go up to a certain thing. But they’re not willing to logically connect the next dot. They’re willing to connect the three dots, but there’s one more dot. Rebecca: Yeah, one of the most insidious things about abuse is that it disconnects you from yourself in many ways. It’s hard to trust your gut, so often you don’t believe yourself. So when you get messages, don’t believe yourself on whether you know you’re ready for it. Always have it when your partner’s ready. There are many things happening that really divorce a woman from her own sense of knowing. I’m going to talk about theme three, which is how women became disenfranchised. When a woman experiences her husband using. Many times her experience has been prescribed, undermined, or ignored. And her struggle to meet her needs. We’ve talked a little bit about this already, but the culture scripts. For example, Samantha talked about how her husband told her. After we married, he said with authority, that guys need it at least once a day, and other similar things. I was surprised, but figured I’d better show up and meet his need. Because I didn’t want him to stray, especially since I knew he had a history of online infidelity. Cultural & Racial Scripts Rebecca: I thought it was part of my new job as a wife to keep him satisfied. So I think that encapsulates how many women feel that pressure. These women didn’t have space to think about what they may want. Many times that’s not even part of the discussion. We had another participant talk about racial scripts. She is a black woman, and she said, we had to be tough. We were black women. We came from a long line of women who were abused by husbands and mistreated, cheated on. You had to be strong. You had to be tough, and you had to go out there and do what you got to do. And I want to highlight that black women in America have survived so much. And in many ways, I’m sure that those messages passed on from mothers and grandmothers have enabled this population to survive. That in and of itself is something that we have to recognize that many times there was no other option but to survive. Anne: Exactly, it was the best way they knew how to resist it. Rebecca: Exactly, yes, when you have always been in a context where you can either die or survive, you will choose survival. And, again, I think these are the cultural scripts that you’re born into. And many times there aren’t other options that are outlined for you. So there’s just one more quote I want to share about how these cultural scripts encourage that. Religious Teachings & Coercion Rebecca: Anna grew up in a extremely conservative faith, and she talked about what her pastor told her. And she said, our pastor said, many times women go into marriage and not like anything. They are shocked with what happens, but you just need to deal with it. Okay, and you know, let your husband do what he needs to do always. Even if you don’t like it, you’ll end up liking it. You do what the guy wants. Anne: What? You’ll end up liking it. That’s what people told her. Rebecca: This is what her pastor told her. Anne: Wow, wow. Rebecca: So I think we don’t know what everybody’s religious education has been, right? But when you have a pastor saying that you may have men who are having regular intimacy. Heidi: Her husband. He was very, very abusive. Anne: Even if it’s just “regular,” if she doesn’t want to do it, it’s coercion. It doesn’t matter how “mild” it is. Online infidelity causes coertion. Rebecca: Yes. But I think it’s important for religious leaders to remember that you don’t know who’s listening. Anne: I mean, not only you don’t know who’s listening to that, that’s never right. Rebecca: Yes. Anne: Like ever, so it should never even be said, let alone thinking about who’s listening. Rebecca: When I’m saying that, what I mean is I think some pastors can’t conceive of what might occur. And the truth is that, a statement like this really enables abusers. Anne: For sure, but in every context, the only thing a pastor should say is, you are just as important as your husband. And when it comes to it, you have the right to do what you feel comfortable with, and he needs to respect that, or he’s raping you. Online Infidelity causes a Lack Of Emotional Intimacy Rebecca: Yeah, this was something that stood out to us, because it was about half of the women talked about their experience, lacking emotional intimacy. One woman described it. Throughout our marriage, there weren’t a lot of intimate emotional connections. So I felt lonely a lot, having it without emotional connection. I don’t think it is really generally super healthy. I think I actually use it to feel connected. You see, these women are desperate to connect and hope to get emotional intimacy sex. Then never being able to feel the emotional intimacy that can accompany a healthy relationship. The next theme is related to this, and that is mourning loss. So one third of the women reported that due to their husband’s use, he would not or could not engage with her intimately. And obviously that takes a toll on her in terms of her self esteem, her body image. Many of them had mentioned that frequent masturbation prevented him from connecting. And you know, one woman talked about how she got married when she was young, and she thought, I’m pretty cute, right? Why isn’t he able to perform? You know, this is happening at young ages, and I’m pretty confused about that. I think it’s interesting, because sometimes the narrative is she’s not interested in it. That’s why he does this, his behavior reaction to hers. And you actually see a lot of women mourning the connection they thought they would have in marriage. Heidi: Yes. And they could not believe that religious leaders didn’t tell them that that might have been an outcome, especially those who’d known about the it before. Male-Centric Experiences Heidi: They just understood, once we get married, it’ll all be okay. But they were like, wait a second. This is important information to know that there will be no intimate experience between us for years. Why was this information not shared? Rebecca: So the next sub theme is about a male centric intimate experience. Many women talked about how often the marital intimacy experience focused on the husband’s preferences. And that societal norms had influenced this. Religious scripts, and explicit content, as the primary form of education for their partner. So it was focused on his pleasure instead of her pleasure. And in some cases they talked about, you know, reflecting back and seeing a grooming process. Cassie shared in particular, clearly I could see looking back, but there was a progressive erosion of my own values. I did things in increasing desperation to fix things. It’s important that all involved know. How important it is to create space for women to develop their own values, preferences, and not continue doing what the husband wants. So the last sub theme is abuse in marriage. So many participants recognize the different forms of abuse they had experienced in the marriage. Whether there was aggression, control, lack of consent, it took a lot of time and processing to recognize what had happened. One woman, Ruth, shared her husband used a lot of unwanted touch. Like being asleep and him doing whatever he wanted. I learned a lot about abuse and what abuse looks like. So I think many women had no, like you’ve talked about, abuse education. It’s Crucial That Women Tell Their Story Rebecca: They didn’t know what happened, but they could process that later. One other participant shared about her experience. This is Anna, she shared, “He started getting verbally abusive and cussing and yelling at me. But people told me as a religious woman, you just need to do what your husband wants. I didn’t at the time, didn’t know that is considered rape.” “Now that I’m out of that and everybody’s like, well, did you give consent? I was like, no, I said no many times. Then that’s not consensual.” That quote is powerful. It can seem clear to us on the outside as she retells this, but I think it’s important to recognize that many of these women have been in this marriage for a while. Women are in contexts where they haven’t clearly seen the abuse. And so it is so crucial that they tell their story. Because if you assume that abuse couldn’t be there. Which I think some people just think watching this is such a normative behavior. There wouldn’t be abuse. But there is, and you don’t want to miss that. Anne: Thank you so much, Rebecca and Heidi, for sharing your findings today. Heidi: I appreciate the opportunity to let women know that research is starting to back up their experiences. And we appreciate what you’re doing at Betrayal Trauma Recovery to help the women as well. Rebecca: We really appreciate you having us, Anne. Thank you so much.

Published: 17 June 2025

If you’re wondering about psychological abuse vs emotional abuse, here’s what to know. Emotional abuse is when someone manipulates your emotions to exploit you. He can use psychological abuse or emotional abuse to toy with your emotions to get what he wants. To find out if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, take this free emotional abuse quiz. Psychological abuse is a deliberate attempt to manipulate, control, and diminish a person’s sense of reality. It can be impossible to detect, because it includes subtle and calculated tactics that undermine your mental and emotional stability. The Link Between Psychological Abuse vs Emotional Abuse One very hurtful kind of emotional and mental abuse happens when some men hide harmful behaviors, like secretly watching inappropriate videos or having relationships outside of their marriage. Then, they use tricks and lies to keep these actions secret. For example, they might blame others, make excuses, or try to confuse the person they are hurting. This kind of behavior is unfair and can make the people around them feel sad, scared, or unsure of what’s true. It’s important to understand these actions so we can help people who are being treated this way. Grooming: Acting overly kind or loving to distract you from their deception or to lower your guard. Gaslighting Through Deception: Insisting that behaviors you suspect (like inappropriate texts or suspicious accounts) are harmless or fabricated by your imagination. Blame-Shifting: Making you feel responsible for their choices—whether it’s pornography use, emotional affairs, or other betrayals. These behaviors are not only abusive but can leave you feeling emotionally unsafe and fragmented, as you try to reconcile the lies with the reality you live. To learn more about this type of abuse, specifically related to infidelity, listen to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Identifying Psychological Abuse And Emotional Abuse: Healing from psychological abuse is almost exactly the same as healing from emotional abuse. Either way, you’ll need to heal from… Lying and Deception: Repeated lies or withholding the truth to maintain power and secrecy. Your husband might make promises he has no intention of keeping, or lie to cover up deeper issues, like infidelity or pornography use. Gaslighting: Making you question your own reality or memory. For example, he might say, “That never happened,” or twist your words to make you feel irrational. Manipulation: Using grooming, love bombing, hoovering, or fear to gain control. He might send flowers or plan amazing dates. Or he might play the victim or focus on your weaknesses to deflect attention from his own harmful behavior. These psychologically abusive behaviors make it even harder to recognize or confront the abuse. Learn more about what strategies to use to protect yourself from this type of abuse by enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Steps To Heal From Psychological Abuse vs Emotional Abuse Healing from psychological abuse is possible, here’s how to start your healing process: 1. Seek Emotional Safety Your emotional safety is very important, and it should always come first. Taking care of yourself might mean stepping away from the situation, setting clear boundaries, or getting help from a trusted professional. It’s okay to make changes to protect yourself, even if it feels hard. Always remember, you don’t need your husband’s permission to take steps toward feeling safe. You deserve to feel happy, respected, and secure in your life. Start by reaching out to someone you trust or a professional who can guide you. You are not alone, and there are people who want to help. 2. Build a Support Network Surround yourself with people who validate your reality and support your healing. This could be trusted friends, family, or specialized support groups like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is designed specifically for women overcoming trauma from psychological abuse vs emotional abuse. 3. Educate Yourself on His Tactics To Make Healing From Psychological Abuse Possible Learning about harmful behaviors, like gaslighting, blaming others, and lying, can help you think more clearly and feel stronger. These actions are used to confuse or control someone, but understanding them is the first step to stopping their effects. When you know how these tactics work, it’s easier to recognize them and take steps to protect yourself. Knowledge gives you the power to break free from unfair or manipulative situations and start feeling more in control of your life. To learn how to heal from your husband’s psychological abuse vs emotional abuse, listen to The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. 4. It Has Nothing To Do With You (and Everything To Do with You) Even though his psychological abuse and emotional abuse has nothing to do with you, it has everything to do with you because you’re the victim. You deserve to live a life free from manipulation, gaslighting, and lies. Transcript: Psychological Abuse vs Emotional Abuse Anne: Many women ask. What is the difference between psychological abuse vs emotional abuse? So emotional abuse is when someone manipulates your emotions to exploit you. So they’re going for that emotional reaction. Psychological abuse is the deliberate attempt to manipulate and control your sense of reality. Healing from psychological abuse vs emotional abuse is pretty much the same thing. You’re still healing from the lying and deception, the gaslighting and manipulation. Psychological abuse and emotional abuse are linked. Both happen when your husband has affairs or has a secret life, watching exploitative material or having relationships outside the marriage. He’s going to be psychologically and emotionally abusive. Grooming and blame shifting is all abuse. So on the podcast today, I have a member of our community. We’re going to call her Margaret. Something happened to her track, and I tried to fix it. And it distorted it a bit. Her story is so good. If you’re having a hard time hearing it, you can read it here. So I want to welcome Margaret. Margaret, let’s start at the beginning of your story. Margaret: In the beginning, I was young and married at 23. So it was kind of a quick courtship dating. I was involved in my church and met him at my work. It clicked, and he started going to church with me, he got baptized at my church. And then, you know, one thing led to another, we’re engaged, and then we’re getting married. And looking back, I can see red flags now, because I’m much older and wiser. But at the time, you don’t think they’re red flags. You just think, Oh, that’s just a little thing. That’s not a sign of a bigger thing. Disrespect & Lack Of Communication Margaret: For example, this sounds so benign, later, it played out so much bigger in our marriage. We were sitting at a table and talking, and there was a newspaper nearby. I’m talking and he picks up the paper. He opens it and starts reading, and the paper is now in front of me. And I remember thinking, Oh, I wasn’t done talking, but you pretty much just cut me off. And I couldn’t even tell you what I was talking about, but that lack of respect, I would say for years, you don’t respect me. You don’t hear me. I’m talking, it’s not processing with you or you’re not acknowledging me. I had dated a guy before him, and I still lived at home. We were coming home, and that other boyfriend was at the door of my house. And I told him, let’s not stop, let’s just keep going. As we drove off, a few minutes passed, and he suddenly started banging on the steering wheel. Upset with me about that, because I didn’t want to stop. That I was ashamed of him or something. And it was very startling. https://youtu.be/3sJNedeS4es Anne: I wonder if he had hoped to just drop you off. Because he was maybe meeting up with another woman. And he had plans or something like that, when you didn’t go in. And he couldn’t drop you off. He was ticked. But of course he couldn’t tell you the truth. Maybe he could use psychological abuse or emotional abuse to batter you to the point where you’re like, let’s just go home then, and then he could go about his merry way. And meet with whoever he was going to meet. Silent Treatment & Gaslighting Margaret: He just got quiet, and then was banging on the steering wheel and yelling at me. Anne: Because nothing is what it seems with an abuser. It’s hard to figure out what’s going on, because you’re trying to resolve an issue and they are trying to meet up with their affair partner. They’re lying to you about needing to work so they can use exploitative material. And a lot of times you’ll ask questions, and they will literally never answer. They’ll just be silent. Margaret: Like we would be having a discussion or disagreement, an argument. And he would be quiet, and I’d be like, what do you think? Why aren’t you saying anything? Oh, tell me, I have a whole party going on in my head. I just didn’t say it. So then I’d be like, that doesn’t help me. And that doesn’t help us. Looking back, I would tell people like, trying to get anything resolved with him is so difficult because I could be talking about apples. We’re going back and forth, and he’s like, okay, we got the oranges all settled. And I’d be like, wait, what? What are we talking about? Anne: That happened to me too. Part of that is that they’re just getting energy from the argument. So it’s not about resolving anything. I’m a good debater, so we would get to the point where it would be resolved. He would use psychological abuse and emotional abuse. Then he would start again on the exact opposite thing of what he just said, and I was like, what? Psychological Abuse vs Emotional Abuse: Energy From Chaos Anne: You just argued for two hours for that. No, I didn’t. It was insane. I think they just gain so much energy from that chaos. It’s fun for them. They’re having a good time. Yeah. Margaret: Oh, yeah, because I would repeat back to him word for word what he’d said to me, like, okay, so you’re saying X, Y, Z. No, no, that’s not what I said. I said, no, those are your exact words, but that’s not what I mean. And I’d be like, say what you mean. And it would just go on like that. Like nothing ever felt like we accomplished anything, or he’d be like, I’ll try, try to do that. And I’m like, many years of trying and there’s no change. I thought, we’re just young and have a lot of growing to do. And we got married, and the behaviors continue. I just thought we’re just immature. It’s two people from two backgrounds coming together to make a marriage work. And my childhood was one that my parents had a very unhealthy marriage. There was spousal abuse. So I knew what physical abuse looked like. I had seen or felt threatened, or had hands laid on me in that way. I would have known that. I could never put my finger on it, something’s off. Something’s not right. I couldn’t identify either the psychological or emotional abuse. So maybe it’s because I don’t know what healthy marriage looks like. Okay, his parents are married. He’s an only child. His parents seem to have a good marriage, so they must have been good role models for him. So he must know, it must be me and growing in the church. Struggles With Exploitative Content Margaret: I got to pray more and learn how to communicate better and submit. To respect my husband more, and things will turn around, things will get better. I had first caught him using exploitative material when I found out I was pregnant with my first son. I had gone to bed, he didn’t come to bed, and I’m like, where is he? And we were in a three bedroom house at the time, and I went to one of the bedrooms and it was locked. I thought, that’s odd, why is he locked in there? And when he opened the door, I could smell something, and I could see a diagonal view to the computer screen. It was exploitative material. I was shocked, stunned, and sick to my stomach. I don’t know what he told me. So I think he said he would come into bed soon, or something, and I just went to bed. The topic would come up off and on for years, because I would catch him. Back then, I didn’t know, and I didn’t understand. And I grew up in that generation, 70s, 80s, where friends’ dads had stocks hidden under the bed, you know, of magazines. And so you’re trying, I’m trying to process, as a good Christian wife, as a woman, as a Christian family. I don’t think this is okay, but like how bad is this? And what do I do? And I did go to his mom and say, look, I think this is an issue, but what could she do? How could I fix this? I did tell him I didn’t like it. This is wrong. I don’t feel good about this. And I think he just got better at using psychological abuse and emotional abuse to hide it. Failed Counseling Attempts Margaret: At one point, we did go to counseling at a church for marriage issues. And somehow, and he’s good at this, the focus became me. The person that was counseling us was not equipped for what was happening. They were not equipped for his use of emotional and psychological abuse to focus on me. The session became about me, my childhood, and my issues. I just know that when it was over, I got in my car, pulled off to the side of the road, and called my sister. Excuse me, it still triggers me. I was so upset. I was bawling. And I said, I can never do that again. I can never go back to counseling. It was so traumatic. I was like, I would never return to another counselor. Anne: Good for you. Margaret: It was horrible. So that was early in the marriage. That was probably 10, 15 years in, and at this point I was beginning to question his fidelity. I would find condoms. And he would say, at the time, we had grown sons, like 20 and 19. He would say, Oh, I grabbed those from our son’s room, and they just ended up in my car. I know my sons, and I know they’re not just leaving them lying out. So what was he doing? And that wasn’t the first time I found them in his car. I had found some early in our marriage, about four, five, or six years in, in a briefcase he had left in the garage. He worked for doctors, a large group of doctors. And it was around a lot of people, women, hospitals, that sort of thing. Psychological vs Emotional Abuse: Lies In The Face Of Hard Evidence Margaret: And I remember finding a briefcase in the garage, and it had a Viagra and condoms, and I was like, what is this? We aren’t using those things. Oh, he said a doctor, as a joke for his birthday, gave them to him. And as a young wife who’s just has a one year old, I’m thinking, what, would I think? You know, I want to believe him. And so I said, Oh, okay. And who am I going to ask, the doctor? No, it was just little things like that that you, I could never verify. Anne: Blaming it on your kids, that is really, really wrong, super wrong. And they don’t have any problem with false witness, and I want to use that word false witness purposefully. They don’t have any problem bearing false witness, which is really alarming. Margaret: I think he knew I would not contact my son and ask him. I think he knew that. And so if he knew that was a safe way to go. But that episode with the finding the condoms in the car, that’s after so many other issues. So for example, the marriage was very difficult. We were struggling. I found it out through my youngest son that he tracked me through my phone, because my son watched him watch the computer monitor. He could see where my car was going. Later when I got home, my son very naively said, Hey, calm down, he knows where you go. I remember being like, what are you talking about? Hidden Cameras & Stalking Margaret: And I don’t remember the conversation with my ex. I don’t remember. I just remember thinking I have nothing to hide. I’m meeting my friend. I’m a mom to four. I homeschool. I don’t get out often. She and I would meet every three or four months to just have dinner. So I have nothing to hide, so I don’t know why you’re doing that. So there’s a long history of these things, spyware on my phone, hidden cameras in our bedroom. Anne: Hidden cameras in your bedroom, do you know of trafficking that he posted online? Margaret: I don’t know he did. He said it wasn’t a good camera. Anne: So he would have trafficked you, but the footage wasn’t good enough, was his excuse? Margaret: He would not speak. When I say he would just not speak, he wouldn’t speak. He would just look at me. I would just back down. He had a heart issue, almost died, life flight and everything. And when he survived, which, because the odds were against him, I thought, this is our second chance now, this is God’s opportunity. He’s going to turn this ship around, because we’ve been struggling, and he had a long recovery. Like he didn’t trust me. He was stalking me. He accused me of things. Which I now know was him projecting. He has been having affairs. He has been having a lot of affairs and things at work. So, he almost dies. He’s out of work until he goes back to work, and they’re telling him he’s done. And still he’s using psychological abuse or emotional abuse to blame me. Discovering The Dating Profile Margaret: He always said it was because of this other minor issue at the job. He’d been with them for 20 years. I don’t believe that story anymore. I think he was having affairs at work, and I think it finally caught up with him. So I still did not know, I’m still believing what he tells me. And I’m like, hey, that’s okay. We’re going to be fine. God has brought us through this far, and we’ll be okay. When my daughter was 17 and this friend of hers was on a dating app. My daughter comes to me at 10 o’clock at night with screenshots and says, Mom, my friend just sent me these. And it’s my husband’s face on a dating profile. And he has solicited pictures from my daughter’s friend. I don’t think he realized it was my daughter’s friend. And a friend saw his picture screenshot them and sent them to my daughter and said, Hey, this guy is DMing me. Is this your dad? And she’s like, Mom, do you think somebody took his picture and is using his pictures? And when I read the words for the little bio, a little hook to get people to click on you. I heard his voice in those words. Like I could hear, I said, baby girl, that’s your dad. And it was about 10 o’clock, 10:30 at night, and I walked over to him. I’m like, you need to pack a bag, and you need to leave. And when he saw what I was showing him with the screenshots, the look on his face, I knew that, yeah, he’s done this. He used psychological and emotional abuse to hide online dating. Psychological Abuse vs Emotional Abuse: Attempting Affair Recovery Margaret: He said, but I don’t want to leave. I’m like, you don’t have a choice, or I’ll call the police. You need to leave. I’m going to call your mother. I’m going to call your father. You need to leave. That was in November 11th. I’ll never forget that. That night, he goes to her and says, I have to leave because your mother’s mad. He wasn’t saying I use psychological abuse and emotional abuse to hide my infidelity. Anne: Yeah, duh, she’s mad, Margaret: She was more on the ball than I was. I have to say, I have to give her credit. She was much wiser at that point to what was going on than I was. She was upset with me when I finally took him back eight months later. It made our, she and I had a very difficult relationship. And I realized now that that was the trigger for her and I not getting along at that point. Because she saw what I couldn’t see. So he moved home. We’re working on our marriage. Margaret: We do Affair Recovery, which is based out of Austin, Texas. It’s an emergency, weekend. Anne: For couples, someone’s had an affair. Margaret: Yes. Anne: Did they mention abuse at all? Margaret: No, never. It’s always assumed, okay, at some point you’ll have to have sex. Anne: You’re going to have to have it, which is coercion, that’s coercion right there. Margaret: You’re a good Christian wife and you need to submit. Anne: They really don’t know anything about rape, do they? Margaret: No! Absolutely, I was like, okay, telling my kids, we’ve been married 29 years. He says he still wants to be married. We can make this work. I’m thinking we’re working on having a better marriage. Pressure & Self-Betrayal Margaret: It’s still always difficult. There are just all these issues. It was an issue, because he moved home and wanted me to start having it right away. I didn’t feel good about that. But I said, okay, and I can look back and see I betrayed myself. He had his own personal counselor. I had my own personal counselor. Then we have the marriage counselor. It seemed like we could never get any resolution, we could never get anywhere. And we started the counseling sessions, and then there’s holidays. So there are these gaps in the counseling, we’re going in January, February, March, and we’re going, but I remember him telling our counselor, what do I need to do? Tell me so I can go through the checklist. At one point, he banged his hand on the couch and said, well, I didn’t even do anything. I should have done something then. The psychological and emotional abuse were continuing in lies to the counselor. Anne: What? Wait. So he was like, wait, I didn’t even do anything. I should have. Wow, okay, he was lying in that moment anyway. Margaret: When I look back and say everything out loud. When I finally sat down with like my mother. I had never told my mother everything. Early in my marriage, my mother-in-law told me, don’t talk bad about him to your family, because then they won’t like him. And thinking, well, yeah, you know, I probably shouldn’t. So I was careful about what I told to who. I would never tell my best friend, even everything, because if she knew everything, it probably would sound bad. And so I was careful about what I shared. So I went to my mother-in-law and told her, and she said, don’t be telling people. Discovering Infidelity Margaret: I saw a message on his phone before all the dating apps. It was a message on his phone about meeting someone at ten thirty at night after their daughter went to sleep. And when I confronted him, he said, oh, it was for a massage. A friend of his recommended her, and he wanted one late at night. But he told me he never went. Yeah, I believed that. And it wasn’t until years later, when we’re trying to work through the marriage issues, that came up again. And this time when he told the story, he did go, and I said, wait, you said you didn’t go. He goes, no, I always told you I went up. I said, no, you didn’t. I was a shell of myself by the time I left. Fast forward a year, I felt like things were just not good. I felt like things were bad. I was experiencing severe psychological abuse and emotional abuse.I went to him. Then I said, if you’re not happy and don’t want to be married to me, that’s okay. I understand. I love you enough to say, okay, we can separate and divorce. That’s fine. And he said, no, I want to be married. In February, I had a gut feeling. And February 6th is when things finally came to a head. I knew he was cheating again. I saw things on his phone. He chased me around the house because I had the phone and he wanted it back. And he was frantically trying to delete things off the phone while talking to me. He chased me outside as I tried to go through his truck, and I was burned out a few times. Social Media & Realizations Margaret: Conveniently the next day, he deleted all the Ring doorbell video. So I had no proof, yeah. Anne: So he knew what he was doing. Margaret: You know, he was caught. I had found condoms in the car again. So, thank social media. I could not even tell you how I came across you, and Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It started showing up. And I started coming across terms like DARVO, gaslighting, and word salad. And I thought, this is in my marriage. This explains everything on Betrayal Trauma Recovery Instagram, yeah. Anne: So you’re first introduced to these ideas, that maybe it’s abuse. You learned the difference between psychological abuse vs emotional abuse. Most women are shocked. Like, how did I not know? And then also totally not shocked simultaneously. It’s a relief. Because it’s like I knew something was wrong, and this is it. Can you talk me through your thought process? Margaret: At first I was like, okay, I know what physical abuse is. You know, everybody has a clear understanding of that. So then when the whole concept of, no, this is psychological abuse or emotional abuse. I had to listen and re-listen to podcasts and go, okay, him having affairs and then coming home. T And I’m not having informed consent to what’s happening to my body, and bringing home risks to my health. Because of his behavior. It was so painful to realize that we’d been married that long. The level of manipulation, at the end, I would just sit and he would talk, and I would just sit and hold my head, okay, okay. Emotional & Physical Safety Anne: Pretty violent episodes, and maybe it will help you, maybe not, reframe it to think that that is the definition of survivor right there, abuse survivor. That you survived psychological abuse and emotional abuse. And you were resisting, and that was all you could do at that time because of how scary your situation was. Margaret: I think deep down in my core, I knew, I think that’s why physically and intimately I couldn’t respond anymore. There was a dread, and I slept on the edge of the bed with my back to him. And I would wake up in the morning in the same position wondering how did I not fall off the bed? You know, because I think I knew I wasn’t emotionally safe with him. He has punched holes in doors. He has yelled, not laid hands on me. But there’s that fear, especially because I carried that fear and trauma from my childhood. So like, we want to avoid triggering any of that. So you’d be a good wife, and you don’t trigger that. And being the Christian woman, I was like, I wanted my marriage to work. I’ve got four kids and I’ve been homeschooling them. And I always said divorce would stop with me because my parents were divorced. Like, I had that other family member’s divorce, and I didn’t want that for my family. I wanted the marriage to work. And so he says he’s sorry, he says he wants to be married, okay. But when you’re being manipulated and lied to, I forgive myself because I didn’t know. Seeking Legal Help Margaret: I didn’t know the extent and what I was seeing, it’s so hard. But I was willing to believe him to make the marriage work. Anne: It was the safest option at the time, because women are really smart. Margaret: Yeah, I’ve got kids. I’m doing homeschool. And how do I navigate going back to work? I’ve been dependent. I just stayed home for 27 years. And I finally texted a friend of mine, my good friend for 20 years. I called her, I said, well, I’m pretty sure we’re done. I can’t do this anymore. And I told her what had happened, and she started asking her friends very covertly, very secretly. We need a lawyer. I need a lawyer for my friend. I had planned a trip that following weekend to visit El Paso to see my daughter. She had by this point married and lived in El Paso, and I flew out to see her. And that was a godsend to be away that first weekend. So I could process what was happening. To get distance from the psychological andd emotional abuse. They got me a burner phone, because I was concerned he was spying on my phone. And I found out months later, my son came to me and said, Mom, one day when I got in dad’s car, I heard your voice coming through the speakers. Dad did something quick and shut it off. He was definitely reading my texts, my emails, listening to my phone calls. So when you realize the level that he has been going through to keep track of you. Psychological And Emotional Abuse: Using Meditation To Heal Margaret: And I told my friends, somebody asked me, are you afraid for your life? I said, I don’t think so, but I need you to know that God forbid, I’m in an accident and in the hospital. Because I do not want him to have power of attorney over me. I don’t want him to have medical power over me. I’m letting everybody know. And I am not suicidal, and I would not run away because I have four kids, even though they’re adult kids. I was like, I would never leave them. So I just needed people to know that, because at this point you just don’t know what they’re capable of. And he knew he was going to take a loss financially, because in the state I’m in, we get half, although he cheated me out of half of the home. Which is another story, but yeah, he was not going to be happy about that. We went to mediation, and signed paperwork, and then the final papers were January of this year. It was a heavy grief. It was really hard in the beginning to say the word abuse. I think because in society, we just think of physical abuse as abuse. If it’s psychological abuse vs emotional abuse, or mental, like that’s not really abuse, right? Because you’re okay. Anne: Do you feel okay? Margaret: I didn’t, I wasn’t. I still have to return to my faith, because there are the marriage advice books and Christian marriage advice books. Reading all those things, I have good Christian friends who love me. But who would tell me things like marriage is hard, divorce is hard, choose your hard. Support & Community Margaret: And that I need. I’m like, good grief, if your marriage is that hard, choose divorce, that is not heart free. And then the whole God hates divorce sentiment. Which we now know and is becoming more widely talked about. That’s taken out of context, you know, that scripture is taking out of context, and that’s not accurate. And so now I have all those tools. Now I know, that this was not just a hard marriage. It was an abusive marriage. Where one person was a master manipulator, a pathological liar, I survived. The last words I told him, he said, Oh, you’re always the victim. And I said, no, I’m an overcomer. I stand on that. I have been overcoming, I am overcoming, and yet it was abuse for 31 years. And so that’s going to take time, and I may always have those triggers. I’ve since gone back to that counselor, because I wanted to let her know. And once she heard all the pieces, she goes, there was no way this was going to work. Because when she talked to his counselor, his counselor said a whole different story. He told the counselor different scenarios of what was going on, so my ex was going to his counselor and mine. And he would go to my mother-in-law and lie about me. He called my best friend and tried to talk to her and tell her stories about me. The psychological abuse and emotional abuse were so crazy. He called my brother-in-law to set me up. He went to our pastor. The pieces started unfolding, and it was so mind blowing. So hard to believe. Escalation & More Lies Margaret: That the person supposed to have my back and do life with me would go to this extent. He was out for himself and protecting his image. Everybody was shocked. And then they think, is it because he almost died? Maybe he’s having this crisis, and I was like, no, this has gone on for years, it just escalated. Anne: It’s interesting that it escalated after his near death experience. Because so many women, me included, are praying for something to wake him up. We think maybe a car accident would help him understand that he is psychologically and emotionally abusive, like my ex got hit by a car. I’ve actually never told that story, and I will soon, on the podcast. He didn’t die, but I did think surely this will help him understand. And even that didn’t help. And I think one of the reasons is because they know. And they manipulate us to think they don’t understand what they’re doing. Or maybe they need to be educated, or maybe communication will improve it, but they know what is going on and know it the whole time. And so to them, this is no wake up call, because knowing has never helped them decide to change, because they’ve known every step of the way. Margaret: Right, I don’t know if they just lied to themselves, if they’re in denial. He, even now, has never had an open, honest conversation with any of my kids about the divorce and the lie behind it, not once. One of my older sons went to him, and my son came back and said, dad said he’d put a pin in it and we’d get back to it, which never happened. Psychological Abuse vs Emotional Abuse: So Many Lies Margaret: My son tried to talk to my mother-in-law, and she was, no, no, you just don’t understand. He told my daughter in an email that he just has communication issues. And that was the root of everything. And if I had been better, as a wife, been a better listener, loved him, compassionate, it would have worked out. I don’t know how they sleep. I don’t know how they look at themselves in the mirror. Anne: Yeah, I don’t either. I think that all that is just a lie too. And people, me included, have a hard time being like, wow, they do lie about everything. Because if they said the truth, I choose to do this, they’ve never wanted to say it in the past. Why would they start now to tell the truth? Habitual psychological abuse and emotional abuse is part of their character. Margaret: When it’s been going on for so long, the lies now, or there’s so much, so many of them. Like I said, I caught him in that one lie. He couldn’t even keep the facts straight anymore. There’s so much of it. I have such a deep desire to pay it forward for other women who may hear themselves in my story. Hopefully, they’re earlier in their marriages, and they don’t stay as long. If you feel something’s off, go with your gut. For so many years, I’ve ignored my gut instincts. And took him in his word, go with your gut. If something feels off, it’s probably off. And be there for other women. I now am in a full-time job. And there are two women where I work that I can encourage now, because they’re going through their own, struggles, divorces, and trauma from their own marriages. Wanting To Help Other Women Margaret: I know God has put me where I’m supposed to be with these women. And that has been my prayer. If I can help just one woman out there, give her the courage to stand up and say, Nope, I’m done. I’m done, and walk away. That makes me feel better. And I know it’s worth something. It couldn’t have all been for nothing. I wanted a happy home, but it wasn’t for lack of trying. I know I did my best with what I was being told. And I can hold my head up high. The marriage was killing me, I couldn’t stay. Anne: Thank you so much for being brave and sharing your story. It will help other women. Just hearing other women’s stories, even without my enlightening commentary, if I can be sarcastic, is so helpful. Margaret: Yes. Anne: When you hear someone else say it, it sounds awful, because it is awful. Going through psychological and emotional abuse is terrible. Then realizing this is exactly what’s happening to me. And it’s just as awful. And I am just as important as the woman sharing this story. Margaret: Right, because you feel like good grief, you know, it’s embarrassing. But I was in a fog. I wanted to believe him. I wanted the marriage to work, and I have four kids. Yeah, and I’m being told as a Christian woman. That if you pray enough, submit enough, be the good wife, do all the things, he’ll come around, it’ll work. Anne: Having been through it. Margaret: Yeah. Anne: There’s no way to describe it to people who haven’t. But there are good people who haven’t been through it. They still probably can’t understand it on the level that women who have been through it can. Hope For The Future Margaret: I agree. My mother had her own abusive situation, and I didn’t appreciate that. Until now, I’ve gone through my own. I knew it was bad. And I would never say it wasn’t traumatic for her. But it’s not until you go through your own trauma with a spouse. That you go, oh, this is why she didn’t want to be around him at the holidays. I was like, hey, this makes sense. Anne: Yeah, everything becomes pretty clear, yeah. Margaret: Yeah, I appreciate women going through the divorce process. And how difficult it is with the court systems. And lawyers, that’s a hard path to navigate. I attended Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions, early on in the whole process. And loved it, I need community. I would go to Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions a couple of times a week which was amazing. I tell people, you need to do this. If you can’t afford anything else, you can afford this, especially with a marriage with betrayal and psychological and emotional abuse. I know that from last year when I started my job to this year, my BTR coach, she’s like, you’re a different person. I was very beat down, and this year I carry myself a little better, a little stronger. I’m excited for the future. I know it’s going to be good. Anne: It will be. You’re awesome. Margaret: Thank you.

Transcribed - Published: 10 June 2025

Navigating life after separation can be challenging, especially if you’re dealing with post-separation abuse. What is post separation abuse? Unfortunately, this is a reality for many women, particularly mothers, who continue to suffer abuse from their ex-husbands. Are you emotionally abused? Take this free emotional abuse quiz to find out. What Is Post Separation Abuse? What is post separation abuse? Post-separation abuse refers to the continuation of emotional, financial, and psychological abuse by an ex-partner after a relationship has ended. It can manifest in various ways, often leaving the victim feeling trapped and stressed. Understanding and identifying the signs of post-separation abuse is crucial for taking steps towards healing and protection. 1. Financial Abuse One common form of post-separation abuse is financial abuse. This can include your ex shutting down your bank account or refusing to pay for childcare and other essential expenses related to your children. Additionally, they withhold important financial information necessary for the divorce process. That is another tactic they use to exert control and cause distress. 2. Unauthorized Entry Another form of post-separation abuse involves unauthorized entry into your personal spaces. Abusers may sneak into your car, garage, or home, violating agreed-upon boundaries. If you notice items out of place or signs of tampering with security systems, it is important to consult your attorney and possibly law enforcement to ensure your safety. 3. Manipulating Your Children’s Lives Post-separation abuse can also include creating chaos for your children in order to exert control over you. Such as, refusing to adhere to set schedules or neglecting to take your children to extracurricular activities. They may also send subtly intimidating emails. They are difficult to pinpoint as dangerous. But they intend to cause fear and anxiety. Get The Right Support while you are experiencing Post-separation abuse At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we recognize the difficulty of understanding post-separation abuse. And are dedicated to providing the support you need. Our community offers: Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions: Join one of our many group sessions for support, guidance, and understanding from women who have been through similar experiences. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions: Receive one-on-one attention and strategies tailored to your situation with our specially trained betrayal trauma coaches. Why Choose Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions? Expert Support: Our professional coaches experienced personal betrayal trauma. They are equipped to help you find peace and protection for yourself and your family. Accessible & Affordable: For just $125 a month, you have access to over 92 group sessions—providing real support at the cost of just one therapy appointment. Immediate Help: Attend a group session within hours and start receiving the support you need today. Take Action to Protect Yourself During Post-separation Abuse You don’t have to face post-separation abuse alone. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here to help you take the steps necessary to protect yourself and your children. Attend a group session today, and join a community that understands your struggles and supports your healing journey. If you’re going through post-separation abuse, consider enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to learn the secrets of why an ex would continue to cause chaos after divorce. Transcript: What Is Post Separation Abuse? Anne: What is post-separation abuse? Marcie’s here to tell her story. We’ll talk about the post-separation abuse she experienced since her divorce. Welcome Marcie Marcie: Hi. Anne: Can you start at the beginning of your story? Marcie: Before that, I’d like to share a funny story. This was when we had originally separated. I tried to send something to my husband to help him understand the situation. It happened to be something from you. And I didn’t know it was from you at the time. It just resonated with me, and I thought it would help. And since that time in all his communication, he references you as this horrible person trying to break up families. And do horrible things for women. Early Relationship Dynamics Marcie: And I feel like it’s ironic that now I’m actually part of that community and maybe helping other women in bad situations, like I was and currently still am. Anne: So he introduced you to Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Marcie: Well, I saw something I read and didn’t know it was Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Anne: And then you showed him, like, hey … Marcie: Yeah. Anne: … this will help you be a better person. Marcie: Yes. Anne: And since then, I am the devil. Marcie: Of course. Anne: And it’s my fault that you’re setting boundaries, rather than his abuse, of course. Marcie: Yes. Anne: I get that a lot, no worries. I’m happy to take that heat for you. So talk about the beginning. Marcie: I met him in high school, and I was young. It was actually before I started high school, so I was very inexperienced with relationships or this type of behavior. And at the beginning, like most of us, it doesn’t start feeling wrong, it starts feeling great. This person is loving. I misunderstood controlling things as loving things. Like, oh, you shouldn’t do that with your friend. That might not be safe for you, but it was a controlling issue. Then we married fairly young and had kids. Then a lot of these things that now I look back with eyes open and see were wrong or damaging. I was told this is normal, I’m crazy, and all the typical things that most of us hear in these situations. And then we feel like, well, that must be true. It must be us. https://youtu.be/odtr70bY2Ew?si=xxY6fBWFYW954bV8 Appeasing Him Marcie: I am now, in my fifties. Our relationship started when I was 14 and we married when I was 21. I feel like it took me a long time to realize that it was such a problem. But I basically tried to appease him in every way possible, because when I didn’t, it was miserable. So that happened for a long time. And then there was the fear of not appeasing him or doing things his way. Anne: So back then, you were doing that to protect yourself. Marcie: Absolutely. Anne: You didn’t know that you were resisting back then, but that was a form of resistance, trying to get it to stop. Marcie: Absolutely, I felt like if I was what he wanted me to be, then it would stop. And of course, in whatever discussions we had about it, or arguments, it was usually my fault. Whatever reaction I was getting was because I wasn’t doing something right. Or I wasn’t being what he needed me to be. So I kept trying to resist his behavior by doing whatever I could to be the best wife I could be. I literally ran myself ragged trying, but it was impossible. And it never really made things better. Anne: Hmm, when did you notice that wasn’t improving things for you? Marcie: I noticed it a long time ago. But I just kept trying, because I didn’t know what my options were. And the longer it went on, I think the more I felt like it was my fault that I couldn’t be what he needed. He kept telling me that, or that I was crazy. Understanding Post Separation Abuse Marcie: There was one point where he, this was quite a while ago, like at least 20 years ago. He said I needed antidepressants because I was hard to deal with. Before I actually left, I realized, of course, I was depressed. I lived with someone who made it impossible to function. He made it impossible to have any type of normal life. He constantly made me feel like I was inadequate, horrible, or bad at everything I did. It was confusing. And honestly, I didn’t have much time to think about how I felt, because I was the sole financial provider for our family of eight. And I worked a lot, plus I had all the responsibilities at home. I attributed it to my busyness. Or that, I don’t know, I didn’t have much chance to think about how I was feeling. When I realized I was depressed, we tried therapy. It doesn’t work in abusive situations. And the therapist we went to was horrible, because he wouldn’t let me talk about the past. He felt like I’m going to fix this and this magical person who’s going to fix your relationship. We’re going to build from right now, and we’re not going to go into the past at all. And that was really empowering to my ex husband, because he didn’t want to talk about the past either. There was actually discussion before I went to the therapist about, you can’t talk about certain things. And I told him, well, if we don’t talk about those things, that are some of the major issues. How will we resolve our problems? And I couldn’t say certain things without fear of what the reaction would be when we returned home. Therapy & Depression Marcie: And the therapist would not allow me to speak. And we did have a test. There were a bunch of questions that we were both supposed to fill out. I answered things honestly, and it came back that I was depressed. He mocked me for that, made fun of me for that. And it just emphasized that I was the problem because I was depressed. It emphasized his impression that it was my fault, and yeah, I couldn’t handle everything. Anne: He’s like, you’re going to work full time and take care of these kids full time. Your depression is causing me problems because dinner’s not on the table. He’s an exploitative person with an exploitative character. One of the things I want women to think about is what do they want? What is the goal of him telling you that you’re depressed? Is it to get you to work harder? Or is it to get you to feel bad about yourself? Is it to get you to stop trying to get him to do something? They usually have something in mind that they’re trying to accomplish. In your case, I think he probably worried you might find out who he was, because he relied on you for everything. Marcie: I definitely believe that was the case. That was towards the end of our, I don’t know if you could call it a relationship, whatever it was. And I had started to question him a lot more. I had started to say no a lot more, which, by the way, for anybody before they get into a relationship, there’s a simple test. The “No” Test, Manipulation & Control Marcie: It’s the ‘no” test. You say no to something and see how they react. And that’s the simplest, easiest way to figure out how people react. But I started saying no. And of course, I became more problematic. I became more difficult. Anne: He wanted you to continue to say yes. So he’s manipulative when he says, that’s why you’re saying no. Because you’re certainly not saying no, because it’s an unreasonable request I’m making. Marcie: Most of us in this situation experience the fact. That the way we do things for them, the way we bend over backwards to make them happy, they love. It’s not a problem for them at all. So they have a hard time seeing that there’s a problem in a relationship, because for them, they get what they want. And if they don’t, they throw a fit, and then usually they do. Anne: It’s working for them. If they can scare you enough or manipulate you enough, the victim resists this type of behavior by doing what he wants. They think that will reduce the behavior, he’s happy about that. She’s still resisting the abuse, and still trying to make things better. She’s always trying to improve her situation. And if she’s trying to improve it by being like, if I do this, he won’t get mad at me. Or if I do this, it’ll improve things. Then he’s like, cool. But he’s not thinking about you. He’s not thinking about your feelings. He’s just trying to get what he wants out of the situation. What Is Post Separation Abuse: Recording Conversations To Maintain clarity Marcie: Absolutely, that depression thing was such a small slice of, there’s gotta be something wrong with me. I started recording things to help me realize that I wasn’t crazy. At first, the only reason why I recorded was he keeps telling me something that didn’t happen. Or he keeps telling me that this conversation didn’t go the way that it did. We’d had circular arguments about well, yes, you said this and this is what you said. “No, I didn’t, I never said that. You’re wrong. See, you can’t remember things correctly. Your brain doesn’t work,” all those negative things that would make me go, what’s wrong with me? Why am I remembering these things incorrectly, or why am I remembering it differently from what he said? And in my mind, I know it went that way. So the only way I could confirm that in my brain was to record the conversations. I want to emphasize how dangerous recording can be if he found out. Because he doesn’t want that, doesn’t want to be contradicted. I started feeling empowered when I realized I’m not crazy. I’m not making this up. Sometimes he accused me of like screaming and yelling at him, and I’d listen to it. I’m like, well, I didn’t scream and yell or this didn’t happen. Whatever it was, it confirmed that what he was saying wasn’t true. And it was so helpful for me to start seeing this as abuse or to see that, there was a problem. Anne: Yeah, that’s very brave of you. And also really awesome. Journaling & Trauma Response Anne: When I went through it, one of the things I did for a very short time was write in my journal, good days and bad days. Because in my head, I thought, okay, he’s just wonky three days a month. And I did the math and I was like, oh, that’s only 10 percent of a month. Is three out of 30 in an ideal marriage, 27 days and 3 days a bad marriage. Is three days worth it? And I did these calculations, but when I actually wrote it down, it was happening every day. I just didn’t notice it was happening every day when I wasn’t tracking it. Recording it or journaling is so helpful. Marcie: I also journaled and feel like that was tremendously helpful. I did that before I started recording. Like what you said, to get an idea of what was happening. Quite a few years ago, I actually had called to get help for him because he threatened suicide. If I didn’t do things his way, he threatened suicide. And so I called for help for him. They referred to someone else, and they told me about power and control wheel. Which helped me understand this too. But I also went to a therapist at that time. And I expressed to her, we’ll have these horrible arguments in the evening. And then the next day I cannot remember them. I can’t remember what they were about. It’s like, I can’t remember anything, no matter how hard I tried. And she explained to me that that is a trauma response to help you function. Living In Between Horrible Things Marcie: She basically explained it to me, as if you remember these difficult situations, you might not be able to function the next day. And so that’s a trauma response. So writing them down is hard, because you have to address them. But then, like what you said, you thought it was only three times a month when it was every day. I think our brains want us to forget the horrible things, so we do. Anne: Well, and also, the next day he seems normal, at least in my experience. I thought, well, maybe I’m crazy. He seems fine today. It wasn’t like the next day he woke up and he was terrible. He acted fine. That made it confusing too like thinking, oh, it’s fine. In those times where you feel desperate for help, that’s a great time to take action. To call a local domestic violence shelter, or attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery group session in that moment. Because you often let it sit for a minute, and then things seem fine, and it doesn’t seem weird to you until it happens again. So you’re always living in between. Marcie: That’s making sense. The only thing is for myself and my situation, I had a fear to reach out for help. Which probably a lot of us do. I just intuitively knew that would be crossing a line of his, which would send him into a negative way. Confronting the reality of Abuse Marcie: And there was a time when we had this situation. Where he chased me through the house and backed me into a corner. I put my hands up, and he was so close to me that my hands were on his chest. And I said, you need to leave me alone. And after that happened, I don’t remember how it ended. But he kept telling me that I had put my hands on him, and he could call the police and say I assaulted him. Because I put my hands on him and he didn’t touch me at all. I was trying to explain to him how that doesn’t sound right. It wasn’t the case, and he said you could call anybody and they would side with me. It was just another typical thing that he would say, how other people would feel about certain situations. And so I said, okay, well then let’s call the domestic abuse hotline right now. And he’s like, go ahead, call. He didn’t think I would call, but I did. They immediately told me, this is not a safe situation. This is not good. But after that call, he was angrier with me than I’ve ever seen him. He explained it to me as the biggest betrayal he has ever felt from me. It was worse than if I had an affair. And I feel like that was because being found out or proved wrong was the worst thing he could experience. Anne: Or he’s just lying in that moment. Marcie: Or lying. Anne: To make you feel like he feels super betrayed for you calling the domestic violence shelter, in order to intimidate you. Marcie: Yes. Lies & Recording Conversations Anne: They lie so much that it’s hard to be like, yeah, that was so devastating for him. Because he told me, I’m thinking, was it? Was it devastating for him? Because he’s a liar. We just never know what is going on in their minds, since they lie so much. Marcie: Well, in looking back, there are so many things that are lies that I didn’t see as lies. Or didn’t want to see as lies or didn’t want to believe as lies that now I know. But that brings me back to the beauty of recording. So flash forward many years from that, that first original recording to now, where four years ago. I got a restraining order, which allowed me to record conversations between him and me, or him and the children. It’s specific for victims of domestic violence who have a restraining order. To record, so I could record and use those recordings in court. Anne: Did he know that you were allowed to do this? Marcie: Yes. Anne: Okay, so he knows he’s being recorded? Marcie: He knows he’s being recorded, but I don’t know if most of these people are like this. He’s very cocky. I think he’d forget, too. Or he didn’t care or didn’t think what he was saying was wrong. In fact, at the beginning, he definitely didn’t think what he was saying was wrong. There were recordings from when he had phone calls and supervised visits. And these were during those phone calls, and he felt okay, because this was the way he was feeling. Differences Between Counties Dealing With Custody Marcie: So it was a right for him to let them know. But when I transcribed those recordings, things such as your mother is trying to kill me by doing this, and your mother hates me. And just things that were not appropriate for children to hear. Anne: You’re recording his phone calls with your kids. This is one way to combat his abuse when fighting a narcissist for custody. Marcie: Correct, and this has been going on for four years. In the meantime, because of those recorded conversations, they’ve limited his phone calls to a shorter amount of time. As well as took away the supervised visits. Which he wasn’t doing anyway, because when I stopped planning them for him, it was too much work or whatever. I don’t know. He didn’t want to pay for it, but he didn’t do it, but they took away that right and made it just phone calls. But another important thing for people in the situation to know is that. The county in which you reside is the court where your custody issues will be heard. And I don’t know if that’s in all states, but I know in California, that’s the issue. So there are many counties that understand domestic abuse. And they try to understand that dynamic when they make decisions regarding the children. There are other counties that do not understand that dynamic. They tend to feel that both parents should be with the children no matter what. And they don’t take into account the background or danger. So for many women who are having some big challenges within the court system, that if they live in another county, they might get a different viewpoint and a different result. Post Separation Abuse INcludes legal maniplulation Marcie: I’ve also experienced, legal abuse where he keeps going back to court. Anne: His post separation abuse includes him taking you back to court, even though you’re divorced and even though he has a protective order? Is his protective order still in place? Marcie: It was made permanent. But in his communication with me previously, he threatened me that he’s going to keep going to court. He has said, this is the only thing you understand. And he’s been in contempt in some ways that have caused me to respond to things worse that have cost me money. Anne: Yeah, it’s so frustrating that they can wreak so much havoc, and the court system doesn’t stop them. It’s a very difficult situation, and that’s why strategy, I think, is so important. And why I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Because confronting them or communicating better, or all the things the therapist might tell you. Or a guardian ad litem might tell you, or reunification therapists will tell you, do not work. So many of you have experienced the trauma of all that. And strategy, we found, is the only thing that can help us stay sane. Financial Manipulation Anne: I mean, he’s costing you all this money. Since you were the primary breadwinner, did he actually start working? Marcie: No. Anne: So he’s doing legal abuse, how is he paying for his legal stuff? Marcie: He keeps saying he’s borrowing money, but I know he’s getting it from family members. It’s just his way. He always has people take care of him or pay for him. And it ties into his narrative of how he will describe what’s happening and make me the villain. Anne: To place him in the victim role. Marcie: Yes. Anne: Rather than the perpetrator. You were the primary breadwinner, did he get alimony from you? Marcie: No. Anne: Whew, he’s probably mad about that. He lost his meal ticket. Marcie: He did. Anne: Yeah, I bet that’s the thing that’s the most anger producing for him. Marcie: Yeah. Anne: You’re not good for anything now. Marcie: I am useless. Anne: Yeah, you’re completely useless to him. That’s what we want to be, we want to be useless. Marcie: Yes. Anne: To these guys. Let’s talk about the smear campaign he started. Smear campaigns are common with post separation abuse. Was this, I guess, during your divorce proceedings? Smear Campaign Marcie: Yes, all along, he leaves out small details, sometimes large details. Or sometimes totally represents things differently from how they are to be the victim. And when I originally contacted you, I asked how do you deal with the smear campaign. This is happening with my in-laws, and it was so upsetting to me to feel like I had lost my in-laws. I’m sure many women have felt the same feeling. I’ve known them since I was a teenager. I feel like they thought of me like a daughter, and the ironic part is they knew how he was. Not to the extent of what I knew, but they knew, and several times his dad said, I’m sorry he’s acting that way. I don’t know why he behaves that way to you sometimes, it doesn’t sound right. His mom would say similar things, things like, if he keeps treating the children that way, they’re not going to want to talk to him. They knew how he was. He would treat them that same way, but they don’t want to talk to me. My adult children have refused to talk to their father, and they feel like that’s horrible. His post separation abuse includes his lies to everyone about me. They don’t interact with them. They barely interact with their younger grandchildren anymore. And it’s just sad, but at first it was really, really upsetting. And then I realized, well, if they’re believing him. If they’re going to stand beside him when he’s abusive and believe things that aren’t true. I guess it has to be okay that those people aren’t in my life anymore. What Is Post Separation Abuse: False Memories & Manipulation Marcie: Oh, that’s so hard. So, on the phone calls with the kids, he tells them things that aren’t true. Well, gosh, there are so many things that he does to them that I feel are so damaging for them. They’re not small, tiny children, but still. He plants false memories. Do you remember when we did this together, and this together? Or I have the memory of whatever it was, being miserable because he didn’t want to go, or they weren’t behaving, Like, for instance, my youngest is 12 and my oldest is 31. My ex-husband was really into baseball. He played when he was a kid. None of the kids had done any type of baseball or organized sports. The younger children wanted to, but weren’t able to when we were together. There was always an excuse we’re not going to have time, whatever. But after I left, it was the first time my youngest son was enrolled in Little League, and he loved it. My ex husband kept saying, remember when we used to go outside and play baseball all the time? I always wanted you to be in sports, but it couldn’t work because of mom’s schedule. Anne: It’s your mom’s fault that you couldn’t take baseball. Yeah, Um hmm. That’s one example of manipulation being a tactic of post separation abuse. Your ex is using the kids to hurt you. Marcie: And I think, well, before I would have fallen into that and felt the guilt. But now I think, well, okay, if it was my fault, then how come I did that after I left you? But I couldn’t do it when there were two people in the home? Impact On Children Marcie: It was so much harder to do anything. But just the false memories of, we used to go out and play catch all the time, which is not true. A lot of those type of things. The criminal things or the things he did to break the restraining order. There were so many more things, but they don’t address it in the way you’d like. Let’s put it that way. But I don’t talk to the kids about the court cases or anything like that, because I feel it’s not for them to be concerned about it. I don’t want them to be part of that. But he would tell them incorrect information about what they’re about, leave out all the important things, and tell them that Mom’s doing this because she doesn’t want me to see you. Those types of things damaged my relationship with the children. Anne: And that’s the point. He’s purposefully doing that to do damage. It damages you and the kids, and that is the intent of post separation abuse, which is so unfortunate. Marcie: It is very hard. Only two out of six of my children will speak with him. Of the two that do, that’s obviously where it’s the most damaging. I’m having trouble with my 17 year old because he’s trying to be the cool dad. He’s encouraging him to stay out late on school nights, not with friends, but with him, and he’s missed school. And he’s actually not supposed to see him, but that’s another thing. He’s luring them with being able to buy them things. Anne: Does he have a job now? Marcie: No, he does not. He gets money from family members, and he claims to be homeless. Yet he purchases things for them. Processing The Abuse Marcie: That’s where recording comes in wonderfully, because we do have a court case that he started. He wants custody again. And I think this time I’m including a lot of recordings that I’ve transcribed, which has been helpful. Anne: It started when you were 14, and has continued this whole time, and everything he’s done has been part of that con. And he continues to do that con. You are experiencing post separation abuse. He lies to your kids, and he lies to everybody else. So the whole thing has been the show. So if you can think of it in that overarching way of, it’s been this show. And then, how do you tell the story within that con? That might help you process it. Marcie: When you put it in that sense, it is just a continuous con. He’s just reaching and grabbing for different cons that will work. That helps put it in perspective. Anne: Yeah, because he’s doing the same thing over and over. Even though it’s maybe not the same lie. It’s lying in a different way, but it’s still just lying. Marcie: Looking back at it, it feels so surreal. Like it feels like it’s not real because it’s so insane. Does that make sense? Anne: Um hmm, totally. Marcie: And I feel like people aren’t going to believe me, because how could that be true? How could anyone act like that? Plus, he’s saying something different. So I think I still have a lot of healing to do, which is frustrating. What Is Post Separation Abuse: We can help you understand Anne: That’s the purpose of this podcast. It’s a safe place where everybody gets it and believes you. We don’t care what he says or thinks, we know he’s a liar. Here, you’re 100% believed. What is post separation abuse? We know and can help. So because of that, it’s such a safe place to be. Like, I can share my story, and he’s not going to talk back to me. Marcie: Sometimes when you share your story with people who don’t understand, they back away or it’s just too much. Anne: With me, I’m like, tell me more. So thank you so much, Marcie. Marcie: Thank you so much.

Transcribed - Published: 20 May 2025

If you’re wondering, “Is my relationship safe?” It’s important to look at patterns of abusive behavior. Physical abuse never happens without emotional abuse, so the first step is to understand the patterns of emotional abuse. To discover if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse test. This Is the Second Episode With Dave Cawley Warning Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous – Susan’s Story With Dave Cawley Patterns To Look Out For In Your Relationship (THIS EPISODE) Transcript: Is My Husband Abusing Me? Anne: I’ve invited Dave Cawley, an investigative journalist and host of the Cold podcast, back on today’s episode. We have already talked about season one of the Cold Podcast, which we re-aired last week. He calls that episode Signs your Husband might kill You. It’s important for every woman experiencing emotional and psychological abuse to recognize it, and know is my husband abusing me? Because physical abuse never happens in a vacuum. Dave and I will talk as if you’ve heard all the Cold podcasts, seasons one, two, and three. And if you haven’t, don’t worry. You’ll still benefit from listening to our analysis as we discuss the themes of all three seasons. Welcome Dave. Dave: Thank you so much, Anne. I appreciate being with you. Anne: So the three seasons of the Cold podcast, Dave, you cover in season one, the murder of Susan Powell. In season two, the Murder of Joyce Yost. And in season three, the murder of Sheree Warren. And you started season three by introducing us to a man named Cary Hartman. You describe his abusive behavior toward women in the form of what some people might call prank phone calls. Law enforcement called it an obscene phone call. Really, these phone calls abused the women who received them. Even if they didn’t realize it. And even if they didn’t define it that way. Can you talk about why these abusive phone calls define Cary’s character? Dave: Sheree Warren disappears in October of 1985. She was dating this man, Cary Hartman at the time, and at first Cary Hartman is not on the radar of the investigators. Cary Hartman’s Criminal Activities Dave: Police identified Cary Hartman as a suspect in a series of home invasion assaults a year and a half later. Where he literally breaks into women’s homes and attacks them, raping them. And so I actually start this story way before we ever meet Sheree with Cary Hartman’s first arrest in 1971. Where he makes one of these calls, he tells this woman, basically a threat, that if he she will be harmed if he doesn’t get what he wants. And to your point, Anne, she was a victim. He abused abused her, right? Anne: Yeah, at the time you interviewed her, did she recognize she was a victim of his abuse? Or did she just think like, oh, a criminal called me and I helped the police identify this guy? Dave: At this point in her life, she was I wanna say about 86 years old when I interviewed her. Heidi Posnien, she’s an amazing woman, but her life experience was so different. I mean, she literally survived Berlin at the end of World War II as a child. And so her perception of how much risk she may or may not have been in at the time. I think it is different than you or I in the same situation. And I think like many victims of abuse, she doesn’t like thinking about whether her husband is abusing her. When I sat down and interviewed her about it, it brought up bad memories even after all these years. It brought up emotions that she was uncomfortable with. You do this kind of thing. Systemic Issues In Recognizing Abuse Dave: Every day Anne, talking to people who have been through abuse. You know how difficult those conversations are. I was grateful Heidi was willing to take us there for the story. Because it allows the listener to begin to see the bigger picture. Like, what are the systemic things that are taking place in our society? That caused these kinds of things to be brushed off? It’s a minor crime, voyeurism, telephone harassment and nothing serious. Anne: He has all these abusive episodes. Law enforcement doesn’t define them that way. There’s a difference between an obscene phone call, which is what they had written on their documents, right? And an abusive phone call. Like when people say something like, one out of every four women are domestic abuse victims in the state of Utah. Then women wonder is my husband abusing me and if so how do I divorce an abusive husband? They’re not saying a man abuses one out of every four women in the state of Utah. Dave: Yeah, that’s a great point. I think, the investigators at the time, thought they caught him. He’s shamed, he’ll change. And if you have that perspective in law enforcement, you’ve gotta step back and look at it and say pattern wise, like what is happening here? And with Cary Hartman, we know these phone calls escalated over time. He ends up calling thousands of women in a harassing way. Where he would try to get women to talk about their bodies, their clothing, in a way that titillated him. It’s still today thousands of victims who will never receive any measure of justice, and many probably brush it off. Eh, I just hung up on the guy. Challenges In Addressing Abuse Dave: And I think there is definitely a need to, at least from the perspective of a journalist. To think about how we talk about those kinds of situations, because we have to be objective. We have to be as unbiased as possible, but I think there’s also room for journalists to call a spade a spade. These are the actions that Cary Hartman took and you’re right, they are abusive. Let’s just call it what it is. Anne: Yeah, I’m reminded of an interview I did with a man who spent, 10 years in prison for abuse. He considered himself an addict. And he said, I acted out in my addiction. That is how he described it. And I said, well, there’s another word for that. It’s that you were an abuser. And he was like, oh, I never thought about it like that. Women think that they can figure out how to deal with an addict husband not understanding that it’s abuse. Dave: The, the focus on himself rather than on the person he was harming. Anne: Yeah, If he’s an abuser, he hurts someone else, rather than he is an addict. He just acted out in his addiction. Dave: Right, that’s a really good point. Anne: Right? Dave: I mean, part of the process for somebody who goes to prison for this kind of crime. If they will ever be paroled, it is usually that they have to go through some kind of therapy or treatment program. The DSM tailors this for mental health professionals trying to diagnose people. Anne: It’s not about their victim. The DSM is thinking maybe we can get him to stop having this. Dave: Paraphilic disorder. Sex Offender Therapy & Its Effectiveness Anne: There we go. Maybe we can get him to stop doing that, rather than maybe we should figure out how to protect other people from this person. And at least from all the victims I have interviewed, it has not worked. In fact, the domestic violence shelter will tell you that most of the time an abuser rehabilitation class, for example, makes them worse. Dave: There is an argument that in some ways it might teach them to just be better about hiding it. Anne: Exactly, and many accuse their victim of being an abuser, and then it gets confusing. Dave: They learn all the language. They learn the terminology. Anne: Exactly. Dave: As far as the Sheree Warren case with Cary Hartman, as long as we’re talking about treatment. I mean, I think an interesting thing to note is that Cary Hartman ends up going to prison for 33 years in these cases. And during that time, they repeatedly require him to go through offender therapy. He needs to pass that. It is as a condition for release on parole. Dave: They release Cary Hartman on parole in March of 2020. He got out of prison. And during the next four years, I lived in our community here in Utah, where I live and work. He was recently returned to prison because it was discovered he had been stalking a woman. According to the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole while he was out. Cary Hartman’s Parole & Recidivism Dave: So you have to stop and say, wait a minute. Did those 30 plus years in prison and repeat trips through offender therapy. Did they help Cary Hartman not harm people while back out in society? And it appears the answer to that question is no. So I wanna hope that those systems can work, but in this case specifically, it seems like it did not. Anne: And me listening to that, at least the way you laid out the facts. As an abuse expert, I came to the conclusion that he figured out what the parole board wanted to hear. Victims wondering if their husband is abusive, might know their husband is saying what they want to hear. He went to offender therapy and eventually learned the words he needed to say. And he parrots that back to the parole board to their satisfaction, in order to be paroled. I was so grateful they kept him in prison for so long. Because they could have let him out sooner. So that was a good part of the story, I thought. Dave: Yeah, in conversations with law enforcement. People who investigated that case, or in the legal profession who tried that case in court, that came up repeatedly. They said, look, in a homicide, or let’s say a manslaughter, somebody who kills another person, they might do 10 years and get out. The fact that Cary Hartman was in for more than 30 years was a big deal, and the reason he was in so long is because he refused to accept responsibility. And like you said, as a listener, I think it’s a fair takeaway to listen to all those years of him going before the parole board. And just slowly creeping forward. Is My Husband Abusive? Learning From Offender Programs & Counseling Dave: The little bit of accountability he would take until he reached that sweet spot where they said, okay, that’s enough. We’ll let you out. Anne: Cary Hartman is a scary guy, but how much scarier would he have been had he learned faster? Let’s say he had gone to offender therapy sooner and taken accountability sooner. And sounded better sooner. He could have been let out sooner. The scariest ones to me are the ones who know that’s what they need to sound like. In terms of my listeners husbands, that’s what they sound like in couple therapy. Or they might sound like that to clergy. And clergy might be like, yes, he’s repented. How do I help my listeners see, is this someone who is now safe or are you currently in danger? It’s so hard to idently if your husband is abusing you. At least, in danger of being emotionally and psychologically abused. In danger of an STD, being lied to is a concern when you’re supposed to trust. Dave: So if I can segue off of that. In season one of Cold. When we talked about the case of Josh and Susan Powell, so this is a married couple. They’ve got two young sons, and there’s this extreme strife going on in their marriage. Susan is upset that Josh is controlling the money. He’s controlling her ability to spend time with friends and family, and she tries to drag him into therapy. Doug Lovell & Manipulation Dave: She tries to drag him in front of clergy. We actually have evidence from writings that Susan left behind after she was killed. She talks about, Josh says, if I call the police, if I call 9 1 1 and say he’s threatening me. When the police get here, he’s gonna be calm, I’m gonna be hysterical. And he’ll make me the one who’s irrational. She was conscious of these very things. Moving forward, when we entered season two in Cold. There’s this story about Joyce Yost being murdered by this man, Doug Lovell. Doug Lovell goes to prison. He’s still in prison and had been sentenced to death twice. He’s had his death sentence overturned twice, and part of the reason is because since he went to prison. He has built relationships with clergy, people who go to prison to work with inmates, to help them hopefully become better people. They prepare them to be released. Doug Lovell will not be released. He is, as I said, serving a death sentence or in limbo while they figure out whether his death sentence will go forward. But those relationships and the way he talks to clergy have allowed him to essentially create a group of supporters. who, when he goes to court, when he goes to trial, are willing to stand up in front of a judge or a jury and say, I believe Doug Lovell is a man with a good heart. I believe he’s a man who’s changed. I believe he deserves a second chance. What we know is Doug Lovell murdered Joyce Yost and has refused to return her body. Doug Lovell’s Legal Battles Anne: Right, flat out manipulation Doug Lovell used to convince some people that he has a “good heart.” The evidence would be that he tells people exactly where that body is, which he has not done. Dave: Right, that’s how you show true remorse in my mind, yeah. Anne: In our community, we actually call this meatloafing. It’s from The Meatloaf song I would do anything for love, but I won’t do that. Dave: This is interesting, and it gets into the weeds of the court case. Lovell, there’s no question he’s responsible. He did admit to it, but that was part of a plea deal in 1993, where he was trying to get a chance for life with parole. At the time, Utah did not have a law that allowed life without parole, so the choice was life with parole or the death sentence. And he thought, if I admit to it, there’s this plea deal on the table. And I will have a chance of getting out of prison. Before the case actually went to sentencing, though, the law changed, and the prosecutors pulled life with parole off the table. And at that point Lovell said, I don’t want to plead guilty anymore. And this is part of why that case ended up going through appeal after appeal. The death sentence ended up being rescinded because the appeals courts determined that Lovell was not appropriately advised of the rights he was giving up. So he goes back to trial in 2015. The problem is that he’s admitted on the record that he killed Joyce Yost. That fact is not in dispute. Tactics Of Abusive Husbands: Manipulative Letters And Emails Dave: How do you go in front of a jury and say, yes, I killed this person. But and that’s where these religious leaders came in. They went before the court and said, in all those years, Lovell is a changed man. Anne: Listening to the manipulative letters Doug Lovell sent those religious leaders was surreal. Because they sound almost exactly like the manipulative letters that so many of the victims I talk to receive. In fact, I have actually created a workshop to show women the patterns of these types of manipulative letters. It’s in my Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. So listeners, if you want to learn more about that, click that link. I show women how abusive it is, so they can identify the abuse. And then how to respond in terms of Doug Lovell. It was very unnerving to hear that these religious leaders fell for this type of manipulation. In fact, judges fall for this type of manipulation too. There are cases in Utah where the abusive man is in jail, but he writes manipulative and abusive letters to his kids, and the victim is court ordered to show these manipulative, abusive letters to her own children. Which to talk about Susan Powell again. I mean, she was killed, but Josh Powell, her murderer, still had parental rights. Dave: Yeah, so let me set the table for that a little bit. Josh Powell, after his wife, “disappears” in 2009. Within a couple of weeks, he takes his two sons, Charlie and Braden, with him. He leaves Utah and goes to Washington state. And he lives under his father’s roof. A few things happen there. Washington State Does Nothing Dave: The West Valley City Police Department has a circumstantial case that Josh murdered his wife, and that’s getting stronger as time goes forward. What they don’t have is direct physical evidence. Like a body linking Josh to Susan’s death. And so in the absence of that, the prosecutors would not give police an arrest warrant. The police are aware that these two boys are potentially at risk. Early in the investigation, a detective from Utah contacts the Child Protective Services Agency in Washington and says, can you intervene in any way? And the state of Washington tells the West Valley City Police Department, unless there’s an allegation of like ongoing or immediate abuse happening, that’s not our job. Anne: I mean, the likelihood that he killed his wife is like a hundred percent. So he’s a murderer, but he’s an appropriate caregiver for children. Dave: Right, unless he’s charged and arrested, they don’t intervene, was the position at the time. Anne: This letter of the law is a thing, and then there’s like, how do we actually protect people? I mean, someone who kills their wife is an abuser, but they’re not defining him as an abuser. Dave: And this was the insidiousness of Josh Powell. Josh Powell was good at cloaking abuse in a way that it didn’t look like abuse from the outside, right? I think you and I rationally can sit back and say the act of murdering his children’s mother is abuse of those children until the police can prove it. The Child Protective Services workers in Washington weren’t going to do anything about it. Operation Tsunami & Steve Powell’s Arrest Dave: And so the investigation for her murder is mostly here in Utah. But there’s an aspect that’s taking place in Washington, and it culminates in the latter part of 2011. Because there’s a big police operation that we learn about in Cold season one called Operation Tsunami. And part of this whole investigation is the service of a search warrant at Josh’s dad’s house in Washington. When police go in there searching, they discover Steve Powell was obsessed with his daughter-in-law, Susan. And they find all kinds of voyeur materials focused on Susan and other women. Steve Powell had been recording women without their knowledge, and among those were two neighbor girls who were underage. Under the definition of the law, this is treated as CSAM. Steve Powell is arrested at that time for two crimes, voyeurism and CSAM. The state of Washington says, wait a minute. These two boys, Charlie and Braden, were in that house. This is an unsafe environment for those children. So they take temporary protective custody of Charlie and Braden. So it took the investigation to that point where there was a catalyst. There was an event that took place with the discovery of those voyeuristic materials. That triggered the state of Washington to take action. Once those boys were in temporary protective custody, that didn’t mean they were going to stay there. Josh immediately starts a campaign to get custody of his kids back. And he was actually within a step or two of clearing every hurdle that the court put in front of him and was probably going to get custody of his children back. Identifying An Abusive Husband: Josh Powell’s Custody Battle Dave: And then police in Utah who were under a court seal. They couldn’t talk publicly about the case, even to other police agencies. They get permission from a judge to share evidence with the state of Washington family court, they send this information up. And it’s troubling enough that the judge in Washington says, before we give Josh Powell custody of his children, we are going to require that he undergo a psyhologial evaluation. So they’re going to do a very invasive psychological evaluation. Looking into, is there anything happening with Josh in his mind that would put the kids in danger? Now, during this period, the court allowed Josh to visit the children. At first, the visit is required in a neutral third party secure environment. But over time, he convinces the court that he’s safe. That they can allow his kids to visit him at a home he had rented. And the judge did not revisit that idea, After this major change, right? Requiring Josh to go through this invasive psychological evaluation. And within a matter of days during a court authorized supervised visit, we know Josh locks the supervised visitation coordinator out of the house. He murders his sons, a horrific ending to this entire investigation. They definitely know that Susan knew her husband was abusing her. She knew the answer was yes. What about Susan’s parents? What could they do in the aftermath of that horrible event? They sued the state of Washington, the agency, and the individual social workers involved in that case. The case wound through the courts for a long time, more than 10 years before it’s resolved. Susan’s Parents Sue Washington State Dave: The individual social workers were deemed immune because they were state employees and working on behalf of the state in that capacity. They couldn’t be held individually liable, but the agency could. Susan’s parents ended up taking that case to trial. So a jury in Pierce County, Washington hears weeks and weeks of testimony. About all the details of the ins and outs of this back and forth with the criminal investigation with the family court in the state of Washington. Long story short, they end up giving a verdict. And they say the state of Washington was negligent in allowing the children to be in Josh Powell’s custody while he went through this process. And they awarded Susan’s parents $100 million, give or take in damages. Of course, nothing that helps them bring the kids back. But their hope was that it would inspire some kind of change. Part of the reason we know as much as we do about what happened in the state of Washington behind the scenes is the law there. It required an inquest when Charlie and Braden were murdered in 2012. And the law also required the results of that inquest to be made public. https://youtu.be/99iqbYMJdXo Transparency is one part of it, but the action to say, okay, these are the things that failed. Let’s fix those, is the next step. And I think that’s where often we see agencies and individuals drop the ball. They can acknowledge that yes, a murdered child is a bad outcome. But what are you going to do about it? That’s where we often fall flat. Current State Of Domestic Violence Services Anne: Just recently, within the last couple months, there’s a victim. Her perpetrator has 27 protective order violations. This is in the state of Utah right now. So she reported one of these violations in Salt Lake City, and they didn’t do anything about it. So the department over that heard about it somehow, and gave her a call. Now this is a victim who’s been working with the domestic violence shelter Safe Harbor for more than three years. And she can’t even divorce this guy. They’re still in custody court, but the department that oversees things interviewed her and did a lethality assessment. They called her back like a week later and said, we have the findings for you. You’re at a really high risk. Holy cow, this is bad. And we’ve come to the conclusion that you need services from the domestic violence shelter. Dave: That’s it? Anne: And she’s like, what? I’ve already been going to Safe Harbor for three years. That’s the state of domestic violence services, it’s like going around in circles. There’s how it’s supposed to work, and then there’s how it’s actually working. A lot of victims will tell you that when they tell other people that the system isn’t protecting them. People generally assume you must have done something wrong. Like maybe you didn’t fill out the right form. How else can someone prove that their husband is toxic. Not realizing you can do everything right and still not get the help you need. It is so difficult when trying to identify if their husband is abusive. And that’s such a fine line for me as an educator. We need to give women hope that they can move toward a better life. But also be aware of all the obstacles they might face. Journalistic Responsibility & Impact Of Educating On Abusive Husbands Dave: And Anne, I think about this a lot, because from my perspective as a journalist, I tell these stories. Part of the reason to do it is to educate, but there’s a parasocial relationship between myself and a listener. Somebody listens to me for hours talking about these cases. And I’ve had the experience many times of somebody listening, going, oh my gosh. What he’s talking about, like this story, this is my life. And reach out to me, and in many cases, they’re asking for just somebody to hear them. But other times they’re more specific, like, help me, you seem like an expert. You seem to know what’s going on. What do I do in this situation? And I feel so ill-equipped. I want to help. So I’ll try to connect them with domestic violence resources, and I have to ask myself, did I actually help that person? It’s so hard. Anne: Yeah, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we have Group Sessions, and Individual Sessions, and Workshops for women to learn safety strategies. Whether they’re married or not. All of these tools can help a woman to know if her husband is abusing her. I mean, it’s my mission to ensure that they get the help they need. Speaking of abusive partners in both Season One and Season Three of the Cold Podcast, an abusive partner plays a role. In season one it’s Josh Powell, and in season three, Chuck Warren is an abuser. He married Sheree Warren. I can say that because I can see the markers and the things that you reported. He is also a suspect, and in every single season, every single perpetrator. Patterns Of Objectifying Women Anne: And Chuck Warren as well, has a history or patterns of objectifying women. With Cary Hartman, there ares tons of evidence of the obscene phone calls and assaults. Like what was going on in the eighties in Ogden, by the way. Like that was wild. I was like, holy cow. I mean, season three, there are three serial rapists in Ogden. Anyway, all the guys in seasons one, two, and three show a pattern of objectifying women. Can you talk about that? Dave: Yeah, all of them are different in their own ways. Josh, when I started looking into his background, his youth, and his relationship with Susan. There are a lot of indicators that Josh was, in many ways, wasn’t interested in physical touch.. But Susan, his wife, would write about this. He wouldn’t hold her hand, he wouldn’t kiss her. He would always find an excuse for it, I’m gonna get sick. So he had something going on, right? And the problem with Josh is the evidence I talked about earlier. They sent it to Washington State in the child custody proceeding. They found it on a computer in the Powell home. The belief of the investigators at the time was that it was material belonging to Josh. What we know is Josh Powell’s father was absolutely deviant in his views toward women generally, and to Susan specifically. There was a dynamic back and forth between Josh and his dad. Josh was aware of his father’s inappropriate advances on Susan, his wife, and he did nothing to stop it. Doug Lovell, Cary Hartman & Chuck Warren Anne: A lack of interest in your partner is definitely a characteristic of excessive exploitative content use. This is one thing help to know if you are experiencing abuse from your husband. Because they’re masturbating all the time, and they’re not into it with a real person. So even though that is a marker, in Josh’s case, there was no evidence. Dave: Directly for him, you can understand why the police would believe it, given what you said. Anne: Yeah, exactly. Dave: Season two and season three, both take place in Ogden, Utah in 1985. I find it fascinating that Doug Lovell, who first assaulted and then murdered Joyce Yost, operates at the same time. Cary Hartman, we know, is attacking women. And you’ve got Sheree divorcing Chuck Warren at the time. In a lot of ways, very similar to Susan Powell, right? There’s a custody issue going on. Chuck Warren, we later find out, was soliciting who are also victims, right? And did Sheree know about that? Probably not, so he’s lying to her, presumably, which is a form of abuse. There was a lot of that kind of dynamic going on, and part of the reason with Sheree’s case in particular. I wanted to focus on the immediate aftermath of Sheree’s disappearance. You know, the first days, weeks, months, her estranged husband, Chuck Warren, looks like Josh Powell. He looks like a really strong suspect. He’s not forthcoming. There are stories about him having done a horrific act of physical abuse against his first wife. Sharee’s his second wife. You can understand why law enforcement is looking at Chuck. Finding Justice For Sheree Warren Dave: Holy cow, this looks like all those abuse markers, and it’s the same story we’ve seen. Then all of a sudden, Cary Hartman comes into orbit over here, and you realize Sheree had this unlucky confluence of bad men in her life. If Chuck Warren was a more standup guy. If he was a better husband. I think the investigation would’ve more quickly focused on Cary and some steps that I believe or suspect Cary took to potentially obscure his activities. Around the time that Sheree disappeared. They would’ve looked at it much sooner than 15 years later, as we see happen. I’m not somebody who likes to stand up on a soapbox and say, every man is a bad person. Anne: Me either. We do need to help victims figure out if their husband is abusive. Dave: But I also like to stand up and say, guys, we gotta do better than this. Even if you are not harming your wife, your partner, you probably know somebody who is. You talked about those statistics, the one in three or one in four women who will experience domestic violence in their lives. If I can turn that around from like a man’s perspective. How many of the guys I would consider friends are at home behind closed doors doing those kinds of things? And what behaviors am I maybe seeing but choosing not to react to? Or am I just putting those blinders like we all have a role in seeing it for what it is, calling it what it is, and standing up to it. Gratitude & Acknowledgment Anne: Dave thank you so much for all of your hard work to bring these really important stories to light. And helping victims identify if their husband is abusive. Dave: You’ve been a supporter and booster, if I can say that for a long time. That’s not lost on me. You’re doing the work in the trenches. I mean, what I say when I talk about how hard that is. And I just hope for your sake, that you find ways to cleanse yourself of it from time to time, because it’s so hard. So thank you for the work you do and all the women you’ve helped, honestly. This kind of work takes a toll on you. And while I feel a strong obligation to continue building on the work done in these three seasons of this Cold podcast, I also need to watch out for my own emotional and mental health. I’m hopeful I can again, as you say, help educate people so that we don’t have to keep telling these kinds of stories.

Transcribed - Published: 6 May 2025

If you’re searching for warning signs your husband is dangerous it’s important to know that many victims “only” experience emotional abuse until . . . Anne Blythe, founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, talks to Dave Cawley, host of the Cold podcast series, about the Susan Powell case, empowering victims to protect themselves and seek safety now. This Is the First Episode With Dave Cawley Warning Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous – Susan’s Story With Dave Cawley (THIS EPISODE) Patterns To Look Out For In Your Relationship Abuse Doesn’t Always Mean Physical Battering Many abuse victims do not have proof. They don’t have bruises or broken bones to show the world that their partner is abusing them. Instead, their bruises and brokenness are hidden beneath the surface. They can be found in the way they doubt their own worth, in the way they feel they are responsible for their husband’s choices. Other forms of abuse, just as serious as physical battering, include: Emotional abuse Psychological abuse Financial abuse Sexual abuse Sexual Coercion Spiritual abuse Covert physical abuse Like many women in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community, Susan Powell was not a victim of physical battering, as far as experts can tell. But she suffered deeply from the abusive behaviors of her husband, Josh. To see if you’re a victim of this type of abuse, take our Emotional Abuse Quiz. Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us That Victim-Blaming Harms Questions and statements like: If it was so bad, why didn’t she leave? It takes two to tango Why did you push his buttons? Why don’t you work harder on making sure he’s happy? He’s not hitting you, are you sure it’s abuse? Even after Susan Powell’s ten year disappearance, many still blame her subtly by asking, “If it was so bad, then why did she stay?” As Dave says, the societal focus should be on why so many men are abusing women, not why women are staying in abusive relationships. Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us That Anyone Can Be A Victim Josh Powell was diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. However, even those who are not diagnosed with NPD can be narcissistic abusers. The mental and emotional toll that narcissistic abuse takes on victims is extreme. Becoming educated about narcissistic abuse. And protecting themselves through effective boundaries can help women find safety from this insidious form of abuse. 3 Tips For Seeking Safety From Abuse Trust your gut. If it feels like something is off, it probably is. Don’t ignore that feeling. You have more support than you realize. A lot of times, we don’t recognize how strong and wide our network is. Reach out, you might be surprised. If you leave, you’re going to be okay. It’s scary to leave, but it’s not as scary as you probably think, once you’re on the other side. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group meets multiple times a day and offers women a community of supportive, validating, and knowledgeable women to help them find safety from betrayal and abuse. Join today and share your story, process your trauma, ask hard questions, and vent painful feelings. Transcript: Warning Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous Anne: I recorded this interview in 2019. At a very intense time during my ex-husband’s post-separation abuse. I interviewed Dave Cawley, host of the cold podcast. And I want to give a shout out. He was so willing to listen to me back in 2019. So thank you from the bottom of my heart for using the interview to learn more about my story and other victims. I genuinely felt like he cared about me personally and that he cared for all victims. So thank you to Dave Cawley and all men who are standing up for abuse victims. Dave is a graduate of the University of Utah’s journalism school. And then went to work as a field reporter in Salt Lake City. Dave joined KSL. And then in 2018, he moved into a new role as executive producer of digital content. On December 14th, 2018. KSL and Dave launched the podcast series Cold. The first season focused on the unsolved disappearance of Susan Powell. That story was close to Dave because he reported on Susan’s suspected murder from the beginning in December 2009. And continues to dig for new details. Cold reached number one on the Apple podcast chart on the day of its release. Welcome, Dave. Dave: Thanks, Anne. I really appreciate being on. My Personal Connection To Susan’s Story Anne: The story of Susan Powell broke the year after I was married. I got married in 2008. And so in 2009, when Susan first went missing, I closely followed the story. I had a sense at that time that something was wrong in my own marriage. I wouldn’t say at the time that I could comprehend what was happening, or even verbalize that my husband was abusive. Something about Susan’s story was calling to me. On the day Josh murdered his sons and proved himself a murderer, I was at a family dinner with my parents and siblings, and also my husband. I said, out loud, “If anything happens to me. He killed me.” I wanted to make sure he heard me say that to everyone because I thought that would help keep me safe. Six years later, in 2015, he was arrested for domestic violence. And that is what helped me understand what was happening. From your research of Susan Powell. Can you talk about how she felt at the beginning of her relationship? Dave: Yeah, I can speak specifically to the circumstances of Josh and Susan’s marriage, because I had a unique opportunity to research and study those. Certainly, I don’t know the totality of Susan’s mind at any given point in time. All I can go on are the clues she left us, what she wrote in her journal. What she wrote to her friends in emails, messages, things like that. That we drew in to use for the cold podcast. But I will say Susan and Josh met when Susan was barely out of high school. She was very young. And if you look at Susan at that time, she was a great student. Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us That Abusive Men Want To Be The Center Of Their Wife’s Universe Dave: She was very hardworking, going to cosmetology school easily. In my opinion, she could have walked into any of the colleges around Washington where she lived at the time. But Josh quickly, after they started dating, isolated her. And he made her life all about him and their relationship. He did it very subtly. He used the creation almost of a mythology for their relationship. That this was a very almost fated kind of thing. That they met and fell in love. And they’re so about each other. One another when in reality, from I think an objective point of view. You can look and say, well, it was all about how she served him, not how he served her. He was not doing things in their relationship that were advancing her best interests. He wasn’t going out of his way to do things to make her happy. But because of her age and because of, I think some of her experience dating as a teenager, when she met Josh and he talked the big talk. She kind of fell into the idea of being in love and in this relationship. They get married quickly. So within six months of beginning to date, they’re married. And it’s pretty clear from the get go that things are not good in their relationship, because Josh can’t keep a job. And every time he loses a job, it’s the fault of the employer. It’s never his fault. Something keeps him down. And so Susan, from the beginning, has to work multiple jobs to try to make ends meet. And help Josh get in a better place where he can hold a job. Anne: I mean, when do you notice the signs your husband might kill you? Warning Signs Of A Dangerous Husband Dave: They have to move in with family several times, which is not a good situation. As we later learned, her father-in-law is a very unsavory individual, to put it mildly. Then it gets more complicated when children enter the mix. Josh and Susan move away from Washington in part to get away from Josh’s dad. And some bad things and make a fresh start. So Susan at that point, in my opinion, still doesn’t see the origin of the problems. And thinks, hey, if we just get away from Washington, if we get to Utah. And we get away from the complicated family dynamics, then Josh and I can make it work. Anne: She still doesn’t see signs her husband might kill her. But almost no one does until it’s too late.. Dave: No sooner do they get here than it’s the same dynamic, right? Susan’s breadwinning. She can hold a job, her husband is holding her back.But they conceive their first child. And that is when Susan starts to see the problems, because Josh as a father is not helpful. That is in 2005, and then it’s a downhill slide from there for a couple of years. After they have their second child, Brayden, Josh disconnects. And the conflict comes out into the open. Josh has been dismissive of Susan for many years. But once she starts sticking up for herself, she has things that matter to her that are of value to her in her life, her religion, and her standards. Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us That Victims Need Support Dave: And Josh is unwilling to practice those himself, but also to allow her to practice her own religion. Do things like pay her tithing, attend church with her, things like that. And he’s also actively undercutting her to the children, talking about how bad it is that mom goes to church, and how they don’t need to go to church with mom. And don’t listen to stuff mom says. Which I think any rational person in a marriage would say is not an okay dynamic. That is when I think Susan starts recognizing that things are not good. She starts dropping hints to friends that she feels in danger, but then when other people tell her hey, you’re in a bad situation. You need to get out of here. She will justify why she’s staying in. Anne: Well, having been in that situation myself. It’s really a situation where you have two bad options. Staying in the marriage is bad, and divorce will also be bad. You’re trying to figure out which bad scenario is the least bad one. I was struck in the podcast. Susan did what she was supposed to do as a victim of abuse. She reached out for help. But clergy told her that if you both work on your issues, this can be worked out. She wasn’t told her husband is dangerous. Since we have over 150,000 women in our community. I hear women report this all the time. Instead of recognizing his abuse they get their abusive husband into therapy or they’re told to go to couple therapy. Can you talk more about what happened when Susan went for help? Dave: That’s tough. Let me speak to some of the circumstances with Josh and Susan and counseling, and we’ll get there. Clergy & Counseling Didn’t Keep Her Safe Dave: Because conversations with clergy are confidential. We’re pretty limited in knowing exactly what kind of advice Josh and Susan received. But Susan did write in a couple of places about going to see her bishop, both with Josh and on her own. You can imagine this is a marriage at a very low point. They’re at each other’s throats. And yeah, Susan is argumentative. I mean, she’s not one to passively just go with the flow. So when she’s unhappy, she’s venting about it. Josh points at her as she’s the one causing all this conflict. Anne: What she’s “complaining about,” and I have that in air quotes, is his abuse. Dave: Right. Anne: Right. Dave: She’s not identified it as such at this point, right? Anne: He’s basically saying, I’m mad at her for being mad at me about my abuse. Dave: Right, in so many words, yeah. Anne: Yeah. Dave: Every indication I have is that the clergy they spoke to said. “We are not qualified to be your marriage counselor, so let’s connect you with services.” So that’s how Susan originally gets involved with marriage counseling. It’s 2008, and Josh refuses to go. The counselor she was talking to in 2008 identified and said you are being abused. Anne: Oh, okay. Dave: And this is when Susan first understood that because her dad was in town and actually went to the session with her. Chuck Cox, Susan’s dad, talks about how afterwards she turned to him and said, Do you think that’s true? Am I being abused? And her dad’s going, yes. Anne: Yes, but she doesn’t see signs that her husband may harm her. Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous You: Explicit Content Dave: I think too, Anne, what happens is specifically in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You have lay clergy, and oftentimes, especially at the local level, these people are your neighbors. It can feel very close, I think even for some of those members of clergy. To be in the business of the personal lives of their neighbors, and that’s uncomfortable. And I don’t want to say there’s not accountability in the same way that maybe a professional clergy. But it’s a little different in that religious community. Just because of the way those relationships exist. Sometimes between the people approaching, a bishop or stake president, or something like that, as opposed to other faiths. Anne: Yeah, and many times clergy, rather than tell the victim, this is an abuse situation, your husband is dangerous, you need to get to safety. They focus on helping him. Like to reactivate someone into the church or to repent. But they don’t realize it’s keeping a victim in proximity to the abuse. I listened to the cold podcast, and surprisingly how pornography played such a large role in developing Josh’s character. Can you talk about the role that it played in his abuse before the murder? Dave: Yeah, this is a very interesting topic for discussion, because we have a pretty good record thanks to the divorce filings for Josh’s parents going back into the mid 90s. So Josh is a teenager, and his mom divorces his dad. In part because Josh’s dad did a lot of things that were not good. There’s some pretty good indication in those filings, that he introduced his kids to explicit content when they were young, both sons and daughters. Josh Powell’s Secret Double Life Dave: Because of that, we know Josh was exposed to explicit material at an early age. We know Josh was actually, by his own disclosure later to a psychologist. He is arrested at one point for stealing explicit magazines from a convenience store. You see early on that this is part of his life. It’s not until after Susan disappears, and police seize computers out of their home. And those computers are scoured for evidence, we see what happened in the meantime. After he and Susan were married, they found many very concerning images on Josh’s computer that had been deleted for the most part. They were in what’s called free space, but Josh regularly watched it on the computer. And Susan talked a lot to her friends in messages and things that Josh was protective of his computer. She was not allowed to use his computer except to do his chores, scanning his papers, receipts, and things. She wanted to get on the internet and Facebook and things like that. He would not allow her to do that on his computer. She had to have her own computer, which he was unwilling to pay for. So that protective behavior, I think, personally speaks to Josh knowing that there’s material on this computer that he does not want her to find. I know there are people in law enforcement who believe the catalyst for Susan’s disappearance and murder may have been her locating something like that, calling Josh’s attention to it. And saying this is a step too far. We’re done. That’s speculation, but I think Josh’s viewing of it played a role, especially because Susan writes a lot about how he wouldn’t touch her. Anne: This abuse and secret explicit materials use might be signs your husband is dangerous. Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us To Pay Attention To Our Gut Dave: He wouldn’t show the normal types of affection that you would expect in a relationship like that. He would not hold her hand. He wouldn’t kiss her. When they were physically intimate, which was rare, he did not view it as beautiful and shared. It was very clinical. I’m trying not to be too graphic here. I want to be careful to protect Susan’s privacy. When they had intercourse, it was not something that was a beautiful and affirming experience for Susan. It was almost, I think, traumatic in itself because of the way he insisted on it being very quick and clean and then over. Anne: Women in our community assume their husbands are not viewing explicit material because they attend the temple or go to church. Because they’re under the impression that the relationship is a certain way, and they’re not being given all the information they need to make a decision. Interesting, so that form of coercion is, I would say, the most common. But it’s still coercion. I don’t think explicit material users understand that in and of itself is a form of abuse. Just thinking about Susan, how would she feel about this? Didn’t enter Josh’s mind. Dave: No. Anne: He wasn’t concerned about Susan at all. All of these are red flags that her husband might kill her. Dave: Not in the least, yeah. Continuing through their marriage, Josh and Susan moved from Washington to Utah to escape Steve Powell. But Steve Powell continues to groom his son well into adulthood through these long phone conversations. Steve Powell was dysfunctional in his views on intimacy. He wrote more than 2, 000 pages of explicit journals detailing his desire for his daughter-in-law, Susan. Signs Your Husband Might Harm You: Emotional Abuse Dave: And so he is interested in poisoning his son’s marriage on the belief that it will allow him to spark his relationship with Susan. Which was never going to happen. Right, but because of that, Josh is being fed this constant stream of negativity. If you look at some of Josh’s writings, going back even into his teenage years, he struggled. Even dating, before he met Susan, with being close. Just being in physical proximity to a girl or a woman, made him uncomfortable. And when he takes that dysfunction into his marriage with Susan, it’s Susan’s fault. Because he tells his dad, Susan wants it all the time. By the time their marriage really bottoms out, they are maybe having intercourse a couple of times a year, if that. And so you can imagine, Susan feels as a 27 year old woman, a 28 year old woman, unfulfilled. By a husband who will show her no care in daily life, no care in the bedroom. Seems repulsed by the thought of giving her a kiss or holding her hand. And going back to your earlier point about not recognizing it as abuse. Yeah, abuse carries a lot of connotation in our society. We expect it to be hitting, to be shouting, you know, slamming of doors. Well, I think it’s arguable that if you are in a relationship with somebody and you are withholding and playing these kinds of mind games, that is a form of abuse. And unless we can call it such, we can’t address it. Abusers “Turn Tables” To Play The Victim Role Anne: Yeah, right before my ex’s arrest, he started telling me that I was unattractive. And that he never thought I was attractive, and that he hated me. I was like, whoa. And he would say, I don’t love you, but I love the kids. So finally I was like, well, then you should leave. Dave: Yeah. Anne: And then he wouldn’t leave. And I was like, okay, this is weird. You think I’m ugly, you don’t want to have intercourse with me. and you hate me, but you won’t leave? It was so nonsensical. It was insane. All right, so we’ve talked about the psychological abuse Susan endured. We’ve talked about how she didn’t recognize it, I didn’t recognize the signs that my husband may harm me either. I want to talk about Josh’s behavior after the murder. It’s like many abusers after divorce. They blame their situation on their victim. They continue to lie, hide and manipulate people. And in Josh’s case, he had this huge crime, and all these people looking at him and reporters trying to get to the truth. In my case, nobody’s been trying to investigate. My ex is still an attorney, he’s still doing his job, and he’s still lying about me. So, his current congregation thinks he’s this amazing saint, and his crazy ex-wife has done him wrong. and they feel so bad that he’s this victim. So even in this case with Josh Powell, where there’s a murder and someone is missing, and all these police are investigating. You’ve got all these reporters, and Josh is still walking around. Lightning didn’t strike him, a bus didn’t hit him, he’s not in jail. He’s got his kids. He’s still functioning. Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us That Abusers Reject Accountability Anne: I mean, he’s not well, obviously. But he’s still free. Why do you think society is so bad at holding these guys accountable? Even though there are he is dangerous. Dave: I think, in a legal sense, and especially in the United States here, we have this concept of innocent until proven guilty. That is important to remember when we’re talking about someone being accused of something criminally. But a marriage is a civil contract, not criminal. So you are married to somebody who is abusing you. You seek a divorce, and through the divorce. The mind games that manipulative men, in particular, can work that system to their advantage. Or to try to hurt or undercut their former spouse. It doesn’t rise to that criminal level. I think many people in broader society don’t want to feel like they are passing a judgment on somebody without proof or evidence. The very nature of this kind of abuse, that manipulation, that financial control, that emotional abuse, is that there is no trail of evidence. And even if you could take it to a police officer or prosecutor, they would say, well, what is the crime? There’s nothing in criminal statute that this violates. So that person is able to go back into society and say, well, look, I’m a good guy. I didn’t do anything wrong. Anne: I’m the victim. My ex says, “She kicked me out of the house for no reason. And then she wouldn’t talk to me.” He doesn’t say, because I sprained her fingers and had a no contact order from the courts. He doesn’t tell people that part. Dave: We need to, in a cultural sense, in the broadest way possible, confront our own perceptions on abuse. And start retraining ourselves. Signs A Husband May Kill: People Don’t Believe You Dave: Me telling the Susan Powell story resulted in more people than I can even tell you reaching out to share their own personal experiences. Even talking to you here, Anne, about your relationship, I think, is in a similar vein. Many women are dealing with this right now. And have never found someone who they felt safe, being very candid about what they’ve gone through. And I think many of us hold these personal experiences close. We don’t share them. There’s shame attached to it. There’s fear of not being believed. What I personally learned was that when people are willing to share those stories with me. When women say, hey, your podcast sounded like my life. The most important thing I can do is express belief and empathy. And say, I’m so grateful that you’re safe. I’m sorry, you have gone through or are going through this horrible circumstance. I believe you. And that opens conversation. I strongly feel that is the path forward. In trying to address why abusive men can just walk away cleanly. And say, “Well, hey, I did nothing wrong.” https://youtu.be/agzTN-9Qpd0 Anne: Or, “You know, it didn’t work out somewhere. It just doesn’t work out.” People just dismiss it even though there may be signs her husband might harm her. That’s why I created this community to be that safe place. Because other places are like, oh, all guys use it. Why are you so worried about it? So here, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we are all about safety, safety, and more safety. We will help you figure out what is going on. And we recommend you get to safety quickly. While you don’t know what’s going on. And then, from a safe place, you can objectively observe and find out what’s happening. He Manipulated Her Anne: I get the impression that Susan didn’t know about the explicit content use until the very end. Was there any indication that she knew about it early on? Dave: I doubt she did. I mean, like I mentioned, there is speculation by some in law enforcement that maybe she discovered something and that was a catalyst. I’m under the impression that Susan had no clue Josh was viewing explicit materials. Anne: I’ve always wondered why reporters don’t include the alleged perpetrators pornography use when reporting crime or murder. If it was a factor? I think that would highlight how it is an element of domestic abuse. And to watch for signs the signs he might kill you. Dave: And to the point about why do you not hear it reported, it’s a difficult spot. Especially early in reporting, we often work from a limited amount of information. The Powell case is unique in that in putting together the cold podcast, we had access to a lot of information that was not available to us when Susan first disappeared. Material gained through search warrants and subpoenas, and things like that. So, when I sat down to tell Susan’s story, I was more informed than I think many of us were at the time she disappeared. About what was going on behind the scenes. Say somebody came forward and said, yeah, you know, Josh goes on the internet and looks at explicit material. You need a nexus that ties it together. And without all the context of Josh’s journals and Susan’s journals, and all the stuff with these recordings, it’s difficult to put that together in a way where you see the broader context. Susan Powell’s Story Teaches Us That Your Husband’s Secrets Can Kill You Dave: So I’m grateful that with the rise of podcasting and some of this longer form of investigative reporting. We’re better able to make those associations clear than you’ll ever see on the 10 o’clock news. Think when you look at Josh as somebody who’s leading a double life, he clearly did not ever allow Susan to see his true self. Josh was a narcissist, and I say that in the sense of a psychologist actually said you have narcissistic personality disorder. He created a persona. The persona of Josh as a young man, and the older he grew, the more solidified that persona became. And the inner core, the true identity of Josh Powell, was not something that anybody ever would touch because of that outer shell. Especially his wife. And so, yes, he will never concede to her that he’s viewing it. That he’s taking all these steps. Which, in my opinion, were preparatory for killing her and cashing in on her life insurance. Others around her were not interpreting warning signs he might use lethal violence. The exterior was about, he’s the expert at everything. Nobody’s smarter than me. My kids are the best kids and can do no wrong, because they’re extensions of me. It’s a very interesting thing, I think, with men who are abusive in this way. It’s one of the signs he might do something drastic. That they, you know, similarly tend to show some of these narcissistic traits where they have this secret life. They protect that secret life to the exclusion of everything else. And I think part of what creates this danger, right, is the idea that when you are exposed, when say a spouse discovers this, now this will collapse that entire world. If He Protects His Secrets, It’s a Sign He May Kill You Dave: And as a man exhibiting this kind of narcissism, when you face that reality of your world collapsing. I’ll just make this person who discovered it, who sees the real me, go away. I think that’s part of why we see violence, and especially homicide, come into play in those moments. Anne: Yeah, I think so too. I discovered my husband’s use 18 months after we had married in the temple, and he had promised me he didn’t use explicit material, so he had been lying to me and manipulating me the whole time. That’s when I got really scared because that’s a sign of something very serious. I think it’s interesting that he went into “recovery”. And when I say that, I mean in quotes. He became like the model addict in recovery. And we were actually public speaking about his amazing recovery, and I didn’t know that he was still lying and manipulating me. I thought I knew how to deal with an addict husband. So near the end, I was like, this is a sham. You are a fake and not in recovery. You haven’t been, and you’re speaking to people as if you are. And that is when the violence escalated. Escalating violent is a sign he might harm you. I was like, I’m not speaking with you anymore, and quit my job. I was the PR director of a popular addiction recovery practice. And so I quit my job and I was like, no, I am done. In the addiction recovery space, which you may or may not be familiar with. When someone enters recovery, everything in that family becomes about him and his recovery. Let’s make sure he’s okay. Let’s treat him like he has cancer. I believe that’s actually a continuation of the abuse. If He Has No Empathy, That’s A Red Flag Anne: I think they should say, okay, she’s a victim of abuse here. She’s been a victim of abuse for 10 years when she didn’t know about his use. Now we know that explicit materials use is a sign that he may use violence against women, because that’s all it is these days. Let’s treat her like she has cancer, and let’s make sure she’s safe. And then let’s wait at a safe distance to see if he is a safe person to be around. That’s not what happens right now. When a couple goes into clergy and says he’s using they’re like, oh, okay. Well, wife, you support him, be supportive. And I’m like, what? No, no, no. That should never happen, because you don’t know what else is going on. Like get her to safety. I mean, I can’t tell you how many women spend tons of time reading books about addiction. How can I support him? How can I make sure I don’t shame him in and on and on? And he’s like, Great. It’s all about me. The relationship’s all about me. Meanwhile, she can’t live a life, because the whole life is about him and his addiction. They have to adjust everything to fit this new reality, and it’s, as you can tell, really making me mad. Susan’s Story Teaches Us That Therapy Does Not Stop Abuse & Manipulation Dave: With Susan and Josh, he is unwilling to go when Susan is in therapy. Susan writes repeatedly that she hopes that if she goes, and he sees it improves her. He will then be willing to go. I want to go back in time and sit down with Susan and say, Susan, you do not understand the way your husband’s brain works, that is never going to happen. The only time he ever goes to therapy is when she confronts him with, I’m leaving. Susan is the meal ticket and is doing child care, bread winning, and taking care of the house. If Susan leaves, Josh will have to work. He’ll also have to explain why his wife left, right? He reluctantly goes along, does the minimum necessary in that situation to keep her on the hook. The idea of being supportive of your husband, you’re working together, he’s going to see how it improves me. Josh has no interest in improving. And I think many of these men who are psychologically abusing their spouses, who are violating that trust, are not interested in self improvement for self improvement’s sake. Anne: When people say, well, he’s going to therapy, I’m like, but why is he going to therapy? Like, is it because he genuinely wants to change? From your podcast, we can see why it was difficult for the law to stop Josh Powell, who was under investigation for murder. Because they were trying to gather evidence. So what hope do victims like me and my community have of getting help when it’s “just emotional abuse.” I mean, it’s so scary that they’re not seeing how dangerous he is. Anne: What would you say to Susan before the murder? Let’s say five years before. Why Did She Stay? The Focus Should Be, Why Do Men Abuse Wives? Dave: Susan dealt with a lot, I think, of self doubt. She knew something was wrong in her marriage, and took steps to begin extricating and protecting herself. And in my opinion, there is no clear answer why she stayed in that relationship. I hear that a lot, right? Why did she stay? Which in my opinion is the wrong focus. It should be on why do we have an abusive man perpetrating on his wife? But for the sake of argument, if we take this question of why Susan did stay, many people want to blame the church. People that maybe aren’t from the community, or even who are, who say, well, clearly she was deluded by her religion. You have other people who want to blame it on X, Y, Z. The truth is, I think there are many influences in any of these situations. Susan feels some fear because Josh has made, I think, some threats to her in probably some very subtle ways, right? She expresses a fear that I’m riding my bike to work on 5600 West in West Valley City, this busy road, and how easy would it be to have an “accident?” When her father-in-law writes in his journal that Josh has mentioned, boy, he sure wishes a car would get hit Susan. So, I’m looking at that saying, yeah, he’s probably told her as much, right? I wish a truck would just hit her. And she’s thinking, oh my gosh, my husband wants me dead. So you have fear. Fear is definitely not a good sign. Susan goes to the temple and prays about it. And she has a feeling that she needs to stay. So you have all these contrary forces, emotions. If You Think Your Husband Could Kill You, Trust Your Gut Dave: What I would tell Susan is, A, trust your gut. Clearly, you were concerned enough to feel a fear, and then you basically talked yourself out of it. Second, you have more support than you realize. Susan had a network of friends and family who we see after she disappears, catalyze and become this amazing force to advocate for her and her story. And they’re still doing that now, 10 years later. That’s to me amazing. And I don’t think she recognized how strong her support network was. The other thing I would tell her is, Susan, if you leave, you’re gonna be okay. Because, living with somebody who, year after year, undercuts you. And robs you of your positive self image, who makes you feel like dirt, like you’re unlovable. Makes the idea of going out into the world by yourself with your two children and trying to support yourself. I have the benefit of looking at Susan from outside of that relationship and seeing somebody who is incredibly hard working, who is bright, who loves her boys. Who has plenty of admirers, who has many friends, who makes friends easily, right? And even for somebody who doesn’t have all those things, it’s scary to leave and take that step. But it’s also not as scary as you probably think, once you are on the other side. Like, Susan would have been okay as long as she was safe from Josh. There were signs he might kill her, but no body educated her about them. So going back to your point, get to safety, do whatever it takes to get to safety. And then start rebuilding your life, and you’ll be okay. Susan’s Story Opened My Eyes To Potential Violence Dave: But seeing the impact that Susan’s story has had opened my eyes in a big way. Even today, having this conversation with you, Anne, is a continuation of that process. It’s a matter of learning and forcing the uncomfortable. And that’s my biggest takeaway. Honestly, I think seeing that abusive relationship in very close detail is, at its core, a lack of empathy on Josh’s part, not showing what I would consider a human care for another person’s well-being. Anne: Yeah, there’s a lot that goes into this whole topic of misogyny, believing women and the Me Too movement. All these other factors that came about after the Me Too movement happened, after Susan’s disappearance. Then what are signs your husband might hill you? Dave: And it’s not political. I think Me Too gets a little politicized. And people start wanting to say well, you know, but not all guys, and it’s like no no, no. Let’s not do that. Let’s focus on believing and showing empathy for people in bad situations who need help. That’s all. Anne: Yeah, your podcast was amazing. It was gripping. If you have not yet listened, it is called Cold. If you have not heard it, I would highly recommend it. It is excellent. Thank you so much for your time, Dave. We appreciate you being here. Dave: Thanks, Anne.

Transcribed - Published: 29 April 2025

It’s shocking how common financial abuse in divorce is. Here are the best ways to protect yourself. Divorce is hard. If you’ve been married to a narcissistic abuser, it can feel even more impossible to break free. These individuals often don’t stop their controlling behavior after a divorce is filed. Instead, they escalate their attempts to assert power. One of the most common—and devastating—ways narcissistic abusers do this is through financial abuse. If you’re a woman divorcing a narcissist, it’s vital to understand how financial abuse works and how to protect yourself. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse quiz. What Is Financial Abuse in Divorce? Financial abuse is an abuser’s way of gaining and maintaining power by controlling access to money and resources. During a divorce, this often includes tactics like withholding financial support, hiding assets, or intentionally complicating legal and financial processes. To wreak havoc on their victim’s stability. The abuse doesn’t necessarily stop after divorce—it can take on new, cruel forms, keeping victims entangled in elaborate schemes long after ties should have been cut. Why Do Narcissists Use Financial Abuse In Divorce? Narcissistic abusers are motivated by control. They want to undermine your autonomy, manipulate your decisions, and make you dependent on them. Anne Blythe, the founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, explains it clearly, “Narcissistic abusers are very calculated. They control where, when, and how they show their true colors. At home, they ‘lose their temper.’ Outside of it, they maintain a polished, socially acceptable image. Financial abuse is yet another method for them to assert power at your expense.” When you understand that financial abuse stems from their need for control—not because of your mistakes or shortcomings—you’re better equipped to set boundaries and protect your well-being. Financial Abuse In Divorce Tactics Financial abuse takes many forms. These are some of the most common examples of what narcissists might do to use financial abuse in divorce proceedings to maintain control over your life: 1. Hiding Income or Assets An abuser may attempt to conceal money, savings accounts, or investments to make it appear as though they have less than they do. This could limit the entitled financial settlement. One victim shared, “He told us he was so poor that our church had to pay his mortgage and car payment—almost $2,000 a month. But when my lawyer looked at his financial records, we found out the truth. He spent thousands of dollars on alcohol and other bad stuff, and even putting a lot of money into his retirement account while pretending he had no money.” 2. Cancelling Credit Cards or Withholding Financial Support It’s not uncommon for abusers to cancel shared credit cards or refuse to pay child or spousal support during the divorce process, leaving victims unable to meet daily expenses. 3. Overwhelming With Legal Delays Dragging out divorce proceedings is another method of control. By filing unnecessary motions, refusing to negotiate, or missing deadlines, abusers increase costs and prolong the emotional strain to maintain dominance. 4. Sabotaging Employment Some women report that abusers interfere with their ability to work—such as creating emotional stress, harassing them at work, or withholding child care arrangements—to keep them dependent on the abuser’s finances. The abuser uses these tactics to exhaust you, and designed to make you feel stuck. The good news? You can overcome them. 5. Manipulating Child Visitation They might withhold child support payments or use visitation schedules to intentionally disrupt your financial planning. What It Feels Like Post-divorce financial abuse can feel relentless. Another victim of financial abuse after divorce said. “For over two years, I dealt with him purposefully withholding child support and blocking me from accessing what the court decided was mine.” How To Protect Yourself From Financial Abuse Protecting yourself from financial abuse requires awareness, preparation, and boundaries. Here are the most effective actions to take: Work With a Trusted Family Lawyer: Hire an experienced lawyer who understands financial abuse. They can help you subpoena records like bank statements and tax returns, ensuring hidden assets don’t slip through the cracks. Discuss protective measures like restraining orders, mediation, or legally established limits with your divorce attorney. These can stop further harassment or financial tampering. Collect and Organize Financial Documentation: Gather everything—pay stubs, credit card statements, bank records, tax returns, and more. Keep copies in a secure, private location or store them digitally for easy access. Open Individual Accounts: Set up a personal checking and savings account in your name. Immediately update your paycheck direct deposits and remove your abuser’s access to shared accounts. Learn Strategy: It’s imperative that you learn how to think strategically about and communicate with a narcissist. Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to learn more. Seek Expert Emotional Support: You don’t have to go through this alone. There are resources, like the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast or group sessions, where women who’ve faced similar challenges can offer advice and emotional support. Finding Empowerment & Healing from Financial Abuse During Divorce Financial abuse is one of the hardest forms of abuse to endure, especially during something as emotional as divorce. However, with the right tools, planning, and support, you can rise above it. Remember, what they do says a lot about them—and nothing about you. Focus on building your own emotional and financial security, so you can live free from their control. If you’re struggling to process or prepare for financial abuse, Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here to help, join one of our group sessions for women or explore our workshops to gain valuable skills in navigating financial and emotional abuse. You deserve safety, security, and peace. Transcript: Financial Abuse in Divorce: How To Protect Yourself I have Brenda on today’s episode. She’s going to share her expertise as a financial advisor about financial abuse in divorce. Welcome, Brenda. Brenda: Hello, Anne. It’s really good to be here Anne: Thank you so much for coming on today. Let’s talk about finances. Brenda: Because everyone is always so excited to talk about finances, right? Anne: One of the things I want to ask victims is, if you had a billion dollars, would you stay married to him? And the answer is usually no. They’re so afraid because they’re trapped. They don’t know how they’re going to take care of their kids, and they don’t want to work. They didn’t sign up for that. Sometimes they do work, but figuring out how I support a family by myself is so overwhelming. What are the best ways to take financial stuff off the table, so women can make decisions based on their safety, not finances? Brenda: I love your question about if you had a billion dollars. I think that’s very clarifying. Gathering Financial Information Brenda: And that gives an indication of, are they staying in that space, relationship or marriage because they hope things will change? Or is it simplified? Is it solely financial? And then if the answer to the billion dollar question is no, I would not stay here. I would want out. Information is power. So that’s where you start gathering information. And oftentimes, an individual who does leave an abusive relationship might have the means, they might be protected. They might be okay financially. But someone keeps them in the dark, perhaps about their financial situation.So they might not have the financial records, they might not know what their spouse makes. They might be on an allowance. If you don’t have financial information about your family. Or if your family’s financial situation is in shape. It’s hard to know. You’re just in a space of fear because it’s unknown. Will you face financial abuse in divorce? So the first thing is to become knowledgeable, if you can, about your true financial situation. Sometimes it can be overt. They could talk to their spouse about needing access. And depending on whom they’re dealing with, they might get it. Or, if they don’t have any access, then it becomes, let’s call it a treasure hunt. Where you’re picking up bits and pieces of the financial picture to try to understand what your options are, what your situation is. The other piece of that, if you’re considering leaving and if leaving means divorce, is to get smart about what the rules are in your area. I’ve heard it said there are like 33 hundred counties in the United States, something like that. Don’t quote me on the exact number. Financial Abuse In Divorce: The Importance of Financial Knowledge Brenda: And there are just as many ways to be divorced. So rules vary state by state rules and rights. They vary from municipality to municipality. That at least gives people grounding or information data to start figuring out, you know, would they be okay? Anne: In The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, we have a section about finances, and Living Free is not about getting divorced. It’s about seeing reality. In the beginning, when women got to that part, they were like, does she want me to get divorced? And the answer is not yes or no. I’m not trying to push anybody in any direction, but I want them safe. And financial safety is such a huge part of this puzzle. In Living Free, when people talk about physical abuse, many people who listen to this podcast are not necessarily physically assaulted. They’re not being punched, they don’t have bruises. They’re experiencing emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, it’s difficult to see. I want people to start to think about the threats of not having a home, not putting food on the table, not having a roof over your head, not being able to pay for gas to get around, that is a physical threat. This is why getting to physical safety is part of deliverance from abuse. Brenda: Sure. It’s your basic fundamental human needs. Anne: Exactly, so if they’re threatening, if you divorce me. Then you’ll never be able to take care of yourself. There will be financial abuse in divorce. Are you thinking that in your mind is a physical threat? It’s extremely physical, and I see it as physical abuse. So think, is this threat of physical harm the thing that keeps me from getting to safety? Steps To Financial Safety Anne: Being educated about your finances and what you need is one step toward not just financial safety, but also physical safety. Because if you know you can take care of yourself, that is such a relief. Even if I never got any money from him, I could keep a roof over my head, pay my bills and buy food. That sort of thing. Brenda: And it lets people figure out what other information they need and what decisions they need to make. If baseline is, oh, I could… Everyone is different. I could go back to work. In our area. There are programs that help women in abusive situations retrain and get to a living wage. Is that available near you? Do you have enough assets that you have every right to take? Every situation will be different. But unless you have the information, you can’t figure out what your next steps are. Anne: When you said talk to him, that made me nervous, because I was like, whoa. You might tip him off, and then he might start hiding money, which is financial abuse in divorce. And he might start manipulating you. So aside from talking to him, what tips do you have for how they can start to find information about their finances? Brenda: I’m just going to backtrack to talking to him for a minute. Yes, it could. And everyone knows their relationship and situation better than anyone else. I have had people who will get the information, and they do use a ruse. It will be, I need it to sign Susie up for soccer, or I want to go to this workshop with my sister, and learn how to understand taxes. Can I have our tax return? The Role Of Credit Reports Brenda: So it might not be overt, and they still have access to the information. I would say anywhere you can get it. If you can get logins, yes, then you can go online. However, there are flags there, because if you log into the bank account, that bank account or credit card might register the login. They might be set so that there’s an alert. Someone logged into your account at 2:24 this afternoon. You got to be aware that that’s out there too. If. You are in such a situation where you’re cut off from all of that information. So it just as asking someone directly could present danger, know that logging into things could as well. Anne: That is a good point, I hadn’t thought of that. I like the ruse idea, that, hey, I’m going to be logging into this thing, can I have the login? Because I’m doing blah blah blah, that is a reason not related to him. Not like, you seem like you’re an abuser. I’m considering leaving you, and I don’t want to experience financial abuse in divorce. Can I have the login? It’s probably the worst idea, I think Brenda: You’re exposing yourself. So unfortunately, as you and your listeners all know, you’re walking a fine line, and they’re in a precarious situation, but they also usually know. I know from my own experience, I would often know the things that were going to, like tee up an issue, explosion or anger. Sometimes you don’t. And sometimes that’s another problem, right? It’s out of the blue. Financial Abuse In Divorce: Facing Realities Brenda: Hey, I just put cheese on that sandwich. I didn’t think it was going to. …cause World War III. Anne: They get unpredictable when they feel like they don’t have control. And so that’s why I’m concerned about like, so many women have told me, oh, he’ll never do that. Never underestimate how much your narcissist ex doesn’t want to leave you alone. So many of our clients here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, they’re like, oh, I’m getting divorced, but I’ve got it all ready to go. It’s going to go well. He told me he’ll always take care of me. And then, like a hundred percent of the time, it does not. They experience financial abuse in divorce. And it goes the way he manipulated her to think it’s going to go, it always goes sideways. Brenda: And the system is built for that. People often going through divorce think, I will be heard, finally. The system will protect me. I trust the system to do its job. It’s not going to. We don’t even know what the job is half the time. If you get all the way to trial, the decisions are being made by a judge who might be late for a dentist appointment. They’re paying half or no attention to your story. And then they’re going to rule. You can’t trust the system, you can know the rules. You can try to figure out what is your bottom line? What’s your worst case scenario? Where are you protected? Where are you exposed? But circling back to like where you can get the information. Becoming Your Own Investigator Brenda: You turn yourself into a little sleuth. So your own little private investigator, do you get the mail when the mail comes in? Do bills come? You can order a credit report, and you can do that separately. So at least, you know what credit cards exist, and how long they’ve existed. That’s another way that sometimes exposes hidden debts or hidden money. It depends on your situation in your household and where the safe conversations are. And a lot of that is, I would say, catering to the abuser. Anne: I would say strategically talking to him rather than catering, but yes. Brenda: Yes, so you’re figuring out. What is the information you’re looking for? How can you get it? What is a viable reason for having it that isn’t going to create a situation that’s going to make life more difficult for you? And worsen financial abuse in divorce. Anne: Getting a credit report. That’s a good idea, because then you can see the stuff that he’s pulled. Can he have his own separate credit report that she can’t see some stuff on? Brenda: Yes. Anne: Okay, so she wouldn’t be able to see like a credit card that he applied for all by himself. Brenda: Depending on the information she has, she might order a credit report for him. Anne: Oh, if she knows his information, she could order it. Brenda: And the question you ask is what’s the bounce back? Is he going to be alerted that there was a credit pool, but you can find that out before you do it, rather than be surprised after. So it’s just a question to ask. Anne: Yeah. Overcoming Overwhelm Anne: What I have found with victims is that the whole situation is so overwhelming. Trying to make decisions, trying to figure out what to do, is so overwhelming. It feels like you’ve got problem after problem, after problem just piled on top of you. That’s why figuring out how long it will take to recover from your husband’s emotional abuse is impossible. And there’s no way to get out from under it. Talking about maybe just doing one thing today to try to reduce the overwhelm when it comes to finances, any ideas there so that it’s not so overwhelming? Brenda: So are you asking in the case of someone who plans to leave the relationship? Anne: No, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we only talk about safety. So just so that you are financially safe, so that you feel financially safe. And also so that you know how much money you would need if he divorced you, for example. So this physical and financial safety, what I’m talking about, is just being. educated about your financial situation. How much your house payment is, how much houses cost in your area, how much you could make if you got a job at the library. You know, just basic information. I feel like information leads to emotional, financial, and physical safety when it comes to like, how much do I need to have a roof over my head? And I think regardless of what path you take to safety, you need to know this. There may be financial abuse in divorce. Brenda: You’re looking at four major categories. What you have, what you spend, what you owe and what you earn. And anytime you start accumulating that information, it’s also future casting, right? You can then picture yourself perhaps in a different situation or safer situation, because you’ve got a little bit of that information. Financial Abuse In Divorce: Building A Secure Future Brenda: What can you earn, like you said, what can you earn working at the library? Were you working, and maybe you were a teacher, and your credentials are out of date? What would it take to get those back? So you can be hired. Are schools in the area hiring? Is that something you would want to go back to? So it’s all building information. So you can be more prepared if there is financial abuse in divorce. That would be in the what you earn category. What it takes to live? You can get online, or if the newspaper still exists in your area, get a newspaper. What does an apartment cost? Do you need a car? What would that cost? Do you currently have one? Just starting to put together the pieces of what would it take for you to be secure food, shelter, clothing? Is that available to you? What are your options there? Every little bit of additional information you can gather is more than you had before. And hopefully both empowering and putting you in a safer place, just because you are then more informed. Anne: You saying that reminds me of this class I had in high school. In high school, we were paired up with a partner. Mine, his name was Tony. I remember this well. And then we drew little slips of paper for, like, your job. Different things about you and you pulled them out. That was your scenario. I was paired up with Tony because he had a car and I didn’t, and we were to go out and find an apartment. that we could afford and buy groceries and figure it all out. High School Class About Finances & Gathering Information Anne: So we would drive around, and that was so helpful. I was like, whoa, it was at that time that I personally decided to go to college. Because I had a job at the time, and I knew there was no way I could afford this apartment on the job I currently have that I do after school. And it helped me put two and two together as a teenager. But then I’m thinking about the divorce coaching clients we have at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because many of our coaches are certified divorce coaches. And I remember one of them was talking about one of our clients, who she thought I could never do this. I can never do that. But once they went through all the financial stuff, she realized that all she needed was an extra thousand dollars a month. That was it. Then when she figured that out, she thought, Oh, I can easily get a job that earns me a thousand dollars a month. And I’d still afford my house. And once she had that information, she could move forward on the path she thought was the safest for her. Getting this information is so helpful. And especially if you don’t know what you want to decide, I think getting the information will help you make that decision. Brenda: When their faces light up and they’re like, Oh, I can do this. I’m going to be okay. And sometimes at first blush, the first pass at looking at what it’s going to cost might not be okay, but at least then they know what it’s going to take. Maybe we can’t be in safety right now, but this is what it will take me to get there. Personal Financial Realizations Anne: You’ve had personal experience with this. Can you talk about how these issues came into play with your own personal experience? How did infidelity or financial abuse affect you in divorce? Brenda: As I went through years and years of my relationship, it became more abusive and more covert. And when I look back now, I can say, Oh my goodness, what was I thinking? Who was that person? And there’s a lot of shame. There’s a lot of guilt. There’s a lot of baggage in the things that became okay over the years. And I didn’t see it until I was away from it. I knew in my heart that it was not okay to be screamed at in the street because of some small thing, right. And called names, and repeatedly verbally abused. But it happened so gradually over time. That it was just my normal. It was what I was used to. And it took starting to step away from the relationship to look back and reframe and see how bad things were. There were times when my husband literally asked other women out in front of me, and then gaslit me. Like, oh no, it didn’t happen that way. You’re making a big deal out of it. https://youtu.be/F1AfegOLcU4 She’s just a business connection or whatever. Which it sounds telling now, like how on earth could you stand there and watch that happen? Go home and make dinner, and put the kids to bed or whatever our normal was. And I think it was just normalized. And the only way I got clear on this is not okay. Was with people, either friends or professionals, who after a while could see and validate. Financial Abuse In Divorce: Support & Validation Brenda: Oftentimes, we’re told, oh, that’s not a big deal. Oh, he had a bad day. Oh, whatever the excuse is, it’s still an excuse. And it is not okay to diminish people, swear at people, abuse people and hide information. And then with people who are, again, professionals, the therapist who, instead of saying, this is how you accommodate him. Who say, how do we support you? And I see you and the behavior. It’s not normal, rational or acceptable, but sometimes it takes getting permission, I think from others. Who instead of saying, suck it up, you can do this, you just have to keep accommodating. Say you are worthy, whole, valuable, and this is the only life you have. You don’t need to live it this way. Once you start getting more voices who are giving you that support, you can start to see a different reality. You can start to see space where you can have a valuable life. Where you can control your own decisions, where you’re not always walking on eggshells waiting for the next blow up or bad thing to happen. Anne: Yeah, I think so many women, at least women, who come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, have been to a lot of therapy. They’ve asked their friends and family for help, and often, no one has told them, this is abuse. Many of them have experienced financial abuse in divorce. Brenda: It’s how you can change, how you can accommodate, how you can change yourself and make it okay. But the answer I think is, it’s not okay. It is abuse, and no one deserves that. Financial Decisions & Safety Anne: Once women realize, once I realized it, through whatever way they do it. Some women learn it from listening to the podcast. There are many ways that you can realize, oh, this is abuse. Then when you’ve got the right pair of glasses to actually see reality for what it is. Then you can start making decisions, that help you start healing from this hidden abuse. Which I think comes into the financial piece. Because once you know the reality of your financial situation, you can start making decisions. I’m thinking of another woman who thought her husband had a ton of money. And so she thought that in divorce, she would get a lot, so she wasn’t worried about getting a job. She wasn’t opposed to getting a job at all. She just didn’t think about it. Then when she found out more, she realized he was in so much debt that it was better for her to not take anything from him and just let him have his debt. And then she was free to build her life the way she wanted, and not be saddled with all the debt he had accrued. And in her situation, that helped her move forward, realizing I’m going to go back to college and start a career. Brenda: We are then working through their finances and what’s feasible, and just call it, what does it cost to live? That’s what we’re really figuring out. A woman in an abusive relationship trying to figure out what her options were. And at first blush, she looked at what now she had access to their finances. And could protect herself from financial abuse in divorce. But she looked at what they had. She’s like, oh, I’m going to have half a million dollars. I’m set for life. Planning Ahead Brenda: Let’s work through this. Let’s do the math and figure out what would it take for her to live for her kids, for their schooling, for their, all the things. And it came up to about a hundred thousand dollars a year. So half a million dollars after taxes, call it $350, 000. That’s going to get you through about three and a half years. So now you have that information, good. You’re going to be okay for three and a half years. And then what? Or, if you don’t want to dip into that, what are your options now? For me, every little bit of information you have adds to the pieces of this puzzle you’re putting together for what your life can look like. What is safety to you? What is acceptable to you? The more information you have, the better you are able to make your own decisions. And protect yourself from financial abuse in divorce. Anne: In some cases, I hear about women hiring a forensic accountant, and professionals like that help with their divorce cases. Can you talk more about specialized services like a forensic accountant? What does somebody like that do? Things that women might need to consider when looking at finances. Brenda: So a forensic accountant will dig deep into the nitty gritty of the family finances. Sometimes looking for misspending, hidden money, things like that. Sometimes involved in putting values to things. So if you’re dividing things, you got to know what you’re dividing. What is it worth? So a forensic accountant is often worthwhile when there are big financial questions or money might be hidden somewhere. It’s harder and harder to hide money. Because there’s an electronic trail, a paper trail, and tax trails, for almost every transaction we do. Financial Abuse In Divorce: The Cost Of Financial Investigations Brenda: Unless you’re dealing in cash or trade, it has a trail, so it’s harder to hide. It’s not impossible, but it’s harder. For most people, it’s not necessary if you don’t have a complex situation. Often hired, often overkill, if there’s not a lot of money at stake. So I had a client come to me about a year ago, and she was sure, absolutely sure her husband was hiding money. But when we kept talking about it, the amount she thought he was hiding. It would have cost her so much more money to find it than it was worth. So we’ve got to figure out what it’s worth. Is it millions at stake? Are there tens of thousands of dollars missing? Then it’s probably worthwhile. If we’re talking a thousand dollars, that might have set aside. You will probably pay much more in professional fees to track that down. Than you’re ever going to get back. As you’re approaching all this and trying to get smarter about your financial situation. Whether you’re aware of everything. Some of the good questions to ask yourself are at what cost? What’s the return on that investment? If you get that information, is it $5 or $50,000? How much are you willing to spend to get it? A forensic accountant is expensive. The spouse took out a credit card that his wife wasn’t aware of, and spent it on pornography, and a woman in Eastern Europe he kept sending money to. So he would draw it off the credit card. She was incensed, and she was very hurt. They actually went through the divorce process, and she wanted an accounting of what he had spent. So she wouldn’t be a victim of financial abuse in divorce. Is It Cost Effective To Investigate? Brenda: And I completely understand that. They weren’t in a financial situation where they could throw money away freely. But in fact, what he had spent was about $500. It was a lot, but it would have cost so much more to trace that money. It wasn’t worth it. So in that case, she knew about it. They could use it in their discussions. She’s never going to get that money back. He already spent it, but tracing it wasn’t worthwhile. Another woman did go through, it was 10,000 pages of credit card bills they gave her in a hard copy. But we found $250,000 that he had spent on a girlfriend. That was definitely worth it. Anne: So, depending on what it is, I feel the same way about alimony, for example. If the lifetime value of spousal support is $80,000, let’s say, like $10,000 for eight years, and you spend $150, 000 getting that. You should think about the numbers here. When dealing with financial abuse in divorce. Brenda: Do some math. Anne: Yeah, you do some math and figure that out on the flip side of this. I have heard of a few victims who are like, I will start hiding money, and they have the impression, and this may be true. I am unschooled on this part of it. So they’re like, I’m going to start putting money here so they can’t find it, so I’m not going to get stuck paying him alimony. Can you talk about that? Is there a way to legally protect yourself from that? For women who think there is a way to hide the money, can you maybe talk them through this situation? Brenda: Maybe, but at what cost? Legal & Ethical Considerations Brenda: First of all, is there a legal way to hide money? Not really. In that case, if you’re going through divorce, you’re signing a contract on file with the court. And you’re essentially saying whether it’s mediation, collaborative process, litigation, whatever you go through. Every document I’ve ever seen says I told the truth and disclosed everything. So that’s pretty heavy. If you’re going to hide money and you’re still okay with signing that, and then it’s found out later, you’re not in a good situation. So again, was it worth it? Is there a legal way? There are tricks that people and groups will share about how to stash away a little cash. Sometimes it might be necessary. I’ve seen partners cut their partner off and stop paying the bills out of spite. That is financial abuse in divorce. Anne: That happened to me. I was completely cut off from finances, yeah. Brenda: If you could be at risk and say physical safety of not being able to have food, shelter and clothing, you’re not able to live safely. Can you set aside money? Yes, the hiding it part is where it gets tricky. If the money is marital, you have a right to it. It is not uncommon. I’m here not working, raising the kids, and I don’t have anything of my own. Yes, you do. You have just as much right. You’re not being paid for your work, but it’s not his retirement account. It is marital. There’s a caveat to everything. If he had it before you got married, that part’s not marital. But anything earned or saved during a marriage, unless it’s a gift or inheritance, because again, caveat, is marital, you have a right to it. Financial Abuse In Divorce: Different Laws In Different States Brenda: It’s not like you’re hiding and stealing if you’re taking money to ensure you can live. Anne: In my case, I had paid $100,000 of his school debt when we got married. That was pre-marital assets in my case, because I was a teacher for 10 years and saved well and a bunch of stuff. And I did not get that back, because I apparently commingled it. Then my grandma, when she died, had given me a small sum of money. You’re saying if it’s an inheritance, it’s yours. During mediation, instead of saying it’s the law, I’ll give it to her. He said, I know how much she loved her grandma, and I would never want to take that away from her. As if he was just being so nice. Instead of me realizing in that moment, he was just trying to look good when he had to give it back, no matter what. Brenda: He had to give it back if it stayed in your name. If you put it in a joint bank account, not the case. Anne: It was in a joint bank account. So maybe he was “being nice.” Brenda: Yeah. Anne: He wasn’t. Brenda: Exactly, he was looking good. Anne: For whatever reason he wanted to look good. Brenda: I guess this is the difference between a financial advisor who you might have to help plan your retirement and what have you. And a certified divorce financial analyst, because divorce has its own money roles. They are actually different partnerships, depending on the state you live in, and can have their own money rules. Some recognize it like a common law marriage, even if you’re not married. Others don’t, and your rights vary depending on where you live. Anne: Yeah. Empowerment & Rights Anne: That’s good to know. With your financial experience, what would you say to women skeptical about their financial future, victims of financial abuse in divorce? Brenda: I would say you have value and rights, it is in your best interest to know them. Sometimes you’re not going to like what you learn, but you’ll have the information you need to start seeing a different future. To take control of your own situation. Even if it’s a little thing at a time, if you are not safe, and that doesn’t feel good. And you’ve been gaslit or brainwashed to believe you don’t have rights to have financial information. Everything in the marriage belongs to the abuser, not to you. You have been told you’re lucky to be there. I would say you’re probably not lucky to be there. The more you surround yourself with the support of people who tell you that you have value, that you have worth. As challenging or huge as moving out of that space might seem. Even a little step, like a little crack in the situation, can then become bigger. Hopefully, you’ll find yourself in a space where you are safe. Whether it’s married or not in a relationship, where you are safe and valued. Often in an abusive situation, you are made to feel small, and as though you owe something to the abuser. You don’t, you are complete, whole and valuable. You don’t have to give in to financial abuse in divorce. Anne: Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode and sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it. Her website is bridgingdivorcesolutions.com. Brenda, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. Brenda: Thank you, I appreciate it. I appreciate the work you do. It’s incredibly important.

Transcribed - Published: 22 April 2025

It’s shocking how common financial abuse in divorce is. Here are the best ways to protect yourself. Divorce is hard. If you’ve been married to a narcissistic abuser, it can feel even more impossible to break free. These individuals often don’t stop their controlling behavior after a divorce is filed. Instead, they escalate their attempts to assert power. One of the most common—and devastating—ways narcissistic abusers do this is through financial abuse. If you’re a woman divorcing a narcissist, it’s vital to understand how financial abuse works and how to protect yourself. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse quiz. What Is Financial Abuse in Divorce? Financial abuse is an abuser’s way of gaining and maintaining power by controlling access to money and resources. During a divorce, this often includes tactics like withholding financial support, hiding assets, or intentionally complicating legal and financial processes. To wreak havoc on their victim’s stability. The abuse doesn’t necessarily stop after divorce—it can take on new, cruel forms, keeping victims entangled in elaborate schemes long after ties should have been cut. Why Do Narcissists Use Financial Abuse In Divorce? Narcissistic abusers are motivated by control. They want to undermine your autonomy, manipulate your decisions, and make you dependent on them. Anne Blythe, the founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, explains it clearly, “Narcissistic abusers are very calculated. They control where, when, and how they show their true colors. At home, they ‘lose their temper.’ Outside of it, they maintain a polished, socially acceptable image. Financial abuse is yet another method for them to assert power at your expense.” When you understand that financial abuse stems from their need for control—not because of your mistakes or shortcomings—you’re better equipped to set boundaries and protect your well-being. Financial Abuse In Divorce Tactics Financial abuse takes many forms. These are some of the most common examples of what narcissists might do to use financial abuse in divorce proceedings to maintain control over your life: 1. Hiding Income or Assets An abuser may attempt to conceal money, savings accounts, or investments to make it appear as though they have less than they do. This could limit the entitled financial settlement. One victim shared, “He told us he was so poor that our church had to pay his mortgage and car payment—almost $2,000 a month. But when my lawyer looked at his financial records, we found out the truth. He spent thousands of dollars on alcohol and other bad stuff, and even putting a lot of money into his retirement account while pretending he had no money.” 2. Cancelling Credit Cards or Withholding Financial Support It’s not uncommon for abusers to cancel shared credit cards or refuse to pay child or spousal support during the divorce process, leaving victims unable to meet daily expenses. 3. Overwhelming With Legal Delays Dragging out divorce proceedings is another method of control. By filing unnecessary motions, refusing to negotiate, or missing deadlines, abusers increase costs and prolong the emotional strain to maintain dominance. 4. Sabotaging Employment Some women report that abusers interfere with their ability to work—such as creating emotional stress, harassing them at work, or withholding child care arrangements—to keep them dependent on the abuser’s finances. The abuser uses these tactics to exhaust you, and designed to make you feel stuck. The good news? You can overcome them. 5. Manipulating Child Visitation They might withhold child support payments or use visitation schedules to intentionally disrupt your financial planning. What It Feels Like Post-divorce financial abuse can feel relentless. Another victim of financial abuse after divorce said. “For over two years, I dealt with him purposefully withholding child support and blocking me from accessing what the court decided was mine.” How To Protect Yourself From Financial Abuse Protecting yourself from financial abuse requires awareness, preparation, and boundaries. Here are the most effective actions to take: Work With a Trusted Family Lawyer: Hire an experienced lawyer who understands financial abuse. They can help you subpoena records like bank statements and tax returns, ensuring hidden assets don’t slip through the cracks. Discuss protective measures like restraining orders, mediation, or legally established limits with your divorce attorney. These can stop further harassment or financial tampering. Collect and Organize Financial Documentation: Gather everything—pay stubs, credit card statements, bank records, tax returns, and more. Keep copies in a secure, private location or store them digitally for easy access. Open Individual Accounts: Set up a personal checking and savings account in your name. Immediately update your paycheck direct deposits and remove your abuser’s access to shared accounts. Learn Strategy: It’s imperative that you learn how to think strategically about and communicate with a narcissist. Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to learn more. Seek Expert Emotional Support: You don’t have to go through this alone. There are resources, like the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast or group sessions, where women who’ve faced similar challenges can offer advice and emotional support. Finding Empowerment & Healing from Financial Abuse During Divorce Financial abuse is one of the hardest forms of abuse to endure, especially during something as emotional as divorce. However, with the right tools, planning, and support, you can rise above it. Remember, what they do says a lot about them—and nothing about you. Focus on building your own emotional and financial security, so you can live free from their control. If you’re struggling to process or prepare for financial abuse, Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here to help, join one of our group sessions for women or explore our workshops to gain valuable skills in navigating financial and emotional abuse. You deserve safety, security, and peace. Transcript: Financial Abuse in Divorce: How To Protect Yourself I have Brenda on today’s episode. She’s going to share her expertise as a financial advisor about financial abuse in divorce. Welcome, Brenda. Brenda: Hello, Anne. It’s really good to be here Anne: Thank you so much for coming on today. Let’s talk about finances. Brenda: Because everyone is always so excited to talk about finances, right? Anne: One of the things I want to ask victims is, if you had a billion dollars, would you stay married to him? And the answer is usually no. They’re so afraid because they’re trapped. They don’t know how they’re going to take care of their kids, and they don’t want to work. They didn’t sign up for that. Sometimes they do work, but figuring out how I support a family by myself is so overwhelming. What are the best ways to take financial stuff off the table, so women can make decisions based on their safety, not finances? Brenda: I love your question about if you had a billion dollars. I think that’s very clarifying. Gathering Financial Information Brenda: And that gives an indication of, are they staying in that space, relationship or marriage because they hope things will change? Or is it simplified? Is it solely financial? And then if the answer to the billion dollar question is no, I would not stay here. I would want out. Information is power. So that’s where you start gathering information. And oftentimes, an individual who does leave an abusive relationship might have the means, they might be protected. They might be okay financially. But someone keeps them in the dark, perhaps about their financial situation.So they might not have the financial records, they might not know what their spouse makes. They might be on an allowance. If you don’t have financial information about your family. Or if your family’s financial situation is in shape. It’s hard to know. You’re just in a space of fear because it’s unknown. Will you face financial abuse in divorce? So the first thing is to become knowledgeable, if you can, about your true financial situation. Sometimes it can be overt. They could talk to their spouse about needing access. And depending on whom they’re dealing with, they might get it. Or, if they don’t have any access, then it becomes, let’s call it a treasure hunt. Where you’re picking up bits and pieces of the financial picture to try to understand what your options are, what your situation is. The other piece of that, if you’re considering leaving and if leaving means divorce, is to get smart about what the rules are in your area. I’ve heard it said there are like 33 hundred counties in the United States, something like that. Don’t quote me on the exact number. Financial Abuse In Divorce: The Importance of Financial Knowledge Brenda: And there are just as many ways to be divorced. So rules vary state by state rules and rights. They vary from municipality to municipality. That at least gives people grounding or information data to start figuring out, you know, would they be okay? Anne: In The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop, we have a section about finances, and Living Free is not about getting divorced. It’s about seeing reality. In the beginning, when women got to that part, they were like, does she want me to get divorced? And the answer is not yes or no. I’m not trying to push anybody in any direction, but I want them safe. And financial safety is such a huge part of this puzzle. In Living Free, when people talk about physical abuse, many people who listen to this podcast are not necessarily physically assaulted. They’re not being punched, they don’t have bruises. They’re experiencing emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, it’s difficult to see. I want people to start to think about the threats of not having a home, not putting food on the table, not having a roof over your head, not being able to pay for gas to get around, that is a physical threat. This is why getting to physical safety is part of deliverance from abuse. Brenda: Sure. It’s your basic fundamental human needs. Anne: Exactly, so if they’re threatening, if you divorce me. Then you’ll never be able to take care of yourself. There will be financial abuse in divorce. Are you thinking that in your mind is a physical threat? It’s extremely physical, and I see it as physical abuse. So think, is this threat of physical harm the thing that keeps me from getting to safety? Steps To Financial Safety Anne: Being educated about your finances and what you need is one step toward not just financial safety, but also physical safety. Because if you know you can take care of yourself, that is such a relief. Even if I never got any money from him, I could keep a roof over my head, pay my bills and buy food. That sort of thing. Brenda: And it lets people figure out what other information they need and what decisions they need to make. If baseline is, oh, I could… Everyone is different. I could go back to work. In our area. There are programs that help women in abusive situations retrain and get to a living wage. Is that available near you? Do you have enough assets that you have every right to take? Every situation will be different. But unless you have the information, you can’t figure out what your next steps are. Anne: When you said talk to him, that made me nervous, because I was like, whoa. You might tip him off, and then he might start hiding money, which is financial abuse in divorce. And he might start manipulating you. So aside from talking to him, what tips do you have for how they can start to find information about their finances? Brenda: I’m just going to backtrack to talking to him for a minute. Yes, it could. And everyone knows their relationship and situation better than anyone else. I have had people who will get the information, and they do use a ruse. It will be, I need it to sign Susie up for soccer, or I want to go to this workshop with my sister, and learn how to understand taxes. Can I have our tax return? The Role Of Credit Reports Brenda: So it might not be overt, and they still have access to the information. I would say anywhere you can get it. If you can get logins, yes, then you can go online. However, there are flags there, because if you log into the bank account, that bank account or credit card might register the login. They might be set so that there’s an alert. Someone logged into your account at 2:24 this afternoon. You got to be aware that that’s out there too. If. You are in such a situation where you’re cut off from all of that information. So it just as asking someone directly could present danger, know that logging into things could as well. Anne: That is a good point, I hadn’t thought of that. I like the ruse idea, that, hey, I’m going to be logging into this thing, can I have the login? Because I’m doing blah blah blah, that is a reason not related to him. Not like, you seem like you’re an abuser. I’m considering leaving you, and I don’t want to experience financial abuse in divorce. Can I have the login? It’s probably the worst idea, I think Brenda: You’re exposing yourself. So unfortunately, as you and your listeners all know, you’re walking a fine line, and they’re in a precarious situation, but they also usually know. I know from my own experience, I would often know the things that were going to, like tee up an issue, explosion or anger. Sometimes you don’t. And sometimes that’s another problem, right? It’s out of the blue. Financial Abuse In Divorce: Facing Realities Brenda: Hey, I just put cheese on that sandwich. I didn’t think it was going to. …cause World War III. Anne: They get unpredictable when they feel like they don’t have control. And so that’s why I’m concerned about like, so many women have told me, oh, he’ll never do that. Never underestimate how much your narcissist ex doesn’t want to leave you alone. So many of our clients here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, they’re like, oh, I’m getting divorced, but I’ve got it all ready to go. It’s going to go well. He told me he’ll always take care of me. And then, like a hundred percent of the time, it does not. They experience financial abuse in divorce. And it goes the way he manipulated her to think it’s going to go, it always goes sideways. Brenda: And the system is built for that. People often going through divorce think, I will be heard, finally. The system will protect me. I trust the system to do its job. It’s not going to. We don’t even know what the job is half the time. If you get all the way to trial, the decisions are being made by a judge who might be late for a dentist appointment. They’re paying half or no attention to your story. And then they’re going to rule. You can’t trust the system, you can know the rules. You can try to figure out what is your bottom line? What’s your worst case scenario? Where are you protected? Where are you exposed? But circling back to like where you can get the information. Becoming Your Own Investigator Brenda: You turn yourself into a little sleuth. So your own little private investigator, do you get the mail when the mail comes in? Do bills come? You can order a credit report, and you can do that separately. So at least, you know what credit cards exist, and how long they’ve existed. That’s another way that sometimes exposes hidden debts or hidden money. It depends on your situation in your household and where the safe conversations are. And a lot of that is, I would say, catering to the abuser. Anne: I would say strategically talking to him rather than catering, but yes. Brenda: Yes, so you’re figuring out. What is the information you’re looking for? How can you get it? What is a viable reason for having it that isn’t going to create a situation that’s going to make life more difficult for you? And worsen financial abuse in divorce. Anne: Getting a credit report. That’s a good idea, because then you can see the stuff that he’s pulled. Can he have his own separate credit report that she can’t see some stuff on? Brenda: Yes. Anne: Okay, so she wouldn’t be able to see like a credit card that he applied for all by himself. Brenda: Depending on the information she has, she might order a credit report for him. Anne: Oh, if she knows his information, she could order it. Brenda: And the question you ask is what’s the bounce back? Is he going to be alerted that there was a credit pool, but you can find that out before you do it, rather than be surprised after. So it’s just a question to ask. Anne: Yeah. Overcoming Overwhelm Anne: What I have found with victims is that the whole situation is so overwhelming. Trying to make decisions, trying to figure out what to do, is so overwhelming. It feels like you’ve got problem after problem, after problem just piled on top of you. That’s why figuring out how long it will take to recover from your husband’s emotional abuse is impossible. And there’s no way to get out from under it. Talking about maybe just doing one thing today to try to reduce the overwhelm when it comes to finances, any ideas there so that it’s not so overwhelming? Brenda: So are you asking in the case of someone who plans to leave the relationship? Anne: No, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we only talk about safety. So just so that you are financially safe, so that you feel financially safe. And also so that you know how much money you would need if he divorced you, for example. So this physical and financial safety, what I’m talking about, is just being. educated about your financial situation. How much your house payment is, how much houses cost in your area, how much you could make if you got a job at the library. You know, just basic information. I feel like information leads to emotional, financial, and physical safety when it comes to like, how much do I need to have a roof over my head? And I think regardless of what path you take to safety, you need to know this. There may be financial abuse in divorce. Brenda: You’re looking at four major categories. What you have, what you spend, what you owe and what you earn. And anytime you start accumulating that information, it’s also future casting, right? You can then picture yourself perhaps in a different situation or safer situation, because you’ve got a little bit of that information. Financial Abuse In Divorce: Building A Secure Future Brenda: What can you earn, like you said, what can you earn working at the library? Were you working, and maybe you were a teacher, and your credentials are out of date? What would it take to get those back? So you can be hired. Are schools in the area hiring? Is that something you would want to go back to? So it’s all building information. So you can be more prepared if there is financial abuse in divorce. That would be in the what you earn category. What it takes to live? You can get online, or if the newspaper still exists in your area, get a newspaper. What does an apartment cost? Do you need a car? What would that cost? Do you currently have one? Just starting to put together the pieces of what would it take for you to be secure food, shelter, clothing? Is that available to you? What are your options there? Every little bit of additional information you can gather is more than you had before. And hopefully both empowering and putting you in a safer place, just because you are then more informed. Anne: You saying that reminds me of this class I had in high school. In high school, we were paired up with a partner. Mine, his name was Tony. I remember this well. And then we drew little slips of paper for, like, your job. Different things about you and you pulled them out. That was your scenario. I was paired up with Tony because he had a car and I didn’t, and we were to go out and find an apartment. that we could afford and buy groceries and figure it all out. High School Class About Finances & Gathering Information Anne: So we would drive around, and that was so helpful. I was like, whoa, it was at that time that I personally decided to go to college. Because I had a job at the time, and I knew there was no way I could afford this apartment on the job I currently have that I do after school. And it helped me put two and two together as a teenager. But then I’m thinking about the divorce coaching clients we have at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because many of our coaches are certified divorce coaches. And I remember one of them was talking about one of our clients, who she thought I could never do this. I can never do that. But once they went through all the financial stuff, she realized that all she needed was an extra thousand dollars a month. That was it. Then when she figured that out, she thought, Oh, I can easily get a job that earns me a thousand dollars a month. And I’d still afford my house. And once she had that information, she could move forward on the path she thought was the safest for her. Getting this information is so helpful. And especially if you don’t know what you want to decide, I think getting the information will help you make that decision. Brenda: When their faces light up and they’re like, Oh, I can do this. I’m going to be okay. And sometimes at first blush, the first pass at looking at what it’s going to cost might not be okay, but at least then they know what it’s going to take. Maybe we can’t be in safety right now, but this is what it will take me to get there. Personal Financial Realizations Anne: You’ve had personal experience with this. Can you talk about how these issues came into play with your own personal experience? How did infidelity or financial abuse affect you in divorce? Brenda: As I went through years and years of my relationship, it became more abusive and more covert. And when I look back now, I can say, Oh my goodness, what was I thinking? Who was that person? And there’s a lot of shame. There’s a lot of guilt. There’s a lot of baggage in the things that became okay over the years. And I didn’t see it until I was away from it. I knew in my heart that it was not okay to be screamed at in the street because of some small thing, right. And called names, and repeatedly verbally abused. But it happened so gradually over time. That it was just my normal. It was what I was used to. And it took starting to step away from the relationship to look back and reframe and see how bad things were. There were times when my husband literally asked other women out in front of me, and then gaslit me. Like, oh no, it didn’t happen that way. You’re making a big deal out of it. https://youtu.be/F1AfegOLcU4 She’s just a business connection or whatever. Which it sounds telling now, like how on earth could you stand there and watch that happen? Go home and make dinner, and put the kids to bed or whatever our normal was. And I think it was just normalized. And the only way I got clear on this is not okay. Was with people, either friends or professionals, who after a while could see and validate. Financial Abuse In Divorce: Support & Validation Brenda: Oftentimes, we’re told, oh, that’s not a big deal. Oh, he had a bad day. Oh, whatever the excuse is, it’s still an excuse. And it is not okay to diminish people, swear at people, abuse people and hide information. And then with people who are, again, professionals, the therapist who, instead of saying, this is how you accommodate him. Who say, how do we support you? And I see you and the behavior. It’s not normal, rational or acceptable, but sometimes it takes getting permission, I think from others. Who instead of saying, suck it up, you can do this, you just have to keep accommodating. Say you are worthy, whole, valuable, and this is the only life you have. You don’t need to live it this way. Once you start getting more voices who are giving you that support, you can start to see a different reality. You can start to see space where you can have a valuable life. Where you can control your own decisions, where you’re not always walking on eggshells waiting for the next blow up or bad thing to happen. Anne: Yeah, I think so many women, at least women, who come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, have been to a lot of therapy. They’ve asked their friends and family for help, and often, no one has told them, this is abuse. Many of them have experienced financial abuse in divorce. Brenda: It’s how you can change, how you can accommodate, how you can change yourself and make it okay. But the answer I think is, it’s not okay. It is abuse, and no one deserves that. Financial Decisions & Safety Anne: Once women realize, once I realized it, through whatever way they do it. Some women learn it from listening to the podcast. There are many ways that you can realize, oh, this is abuse. Then when you’ve got the right pair of glasses to actually see reality for what it is. Then you can start making decisions, that help you start healing from this hidden abuse. Which I think comes into the financial piece. Because once you know the reality of your financial situation, you can start making decisions. I’m thinking of another woman who thought her husband had a ton of money. And so she thought that in divorce, she would get a lot, so she wasn’t worried about getting a job. She wasn’t opposed to getting a job at all. She just didn’t think about it. Then when she found out more, she realized he was in so much debt that it was better for her to not take anything from him and just let him have his debt. And then she was free to build her life the way she wanted, and not be saddled with all the debt he had accrued. And in her situation, that helped her move forward, realizing I’m going to go back to college and start a career. Brenda: We are then working through their finances and what’s feasible, and just call it, what does it cost to live? That’s what we’re really figuring out. A woman in an abusive relationship trying to figure out what her options were. And at first blush, she looked at what now she had access to their finances. And could protect herself from financial abuse in divorce. But she looked at what they had. She’s like, oh, I’m going to have half a million dollars. I’m set for life. Planning Ahead Brenda: Let’s work through this. Let’s do the math and figure out what would it take for her to live for her kids, for their schooling, for their, all the things. And it came up to about a hundred thousand dollars a year. So half a million dollars after taxes, call it $350, 000. That’s going to get you through about three and a half years. So now you have that information, good. You’re going to be okay for three and a half years. And then what? Or, if you don’t want to dip into that, what are your options now? For me, every little bit of information you have adds to the pieces of this puzzle you’re putting together for what your life can look like. What is safety to you? What is acceptable to you? The more information you have, the better you are able to make your own decisions. And protect yourself from financial abuse in divorce. Anne: In some cases, I hear about women hiring a forensic accountant, and professionals like that help with their divorce cases. Can you talk more about specialized services like a forensic accountant? What does somebody like that do? Things that women might need to consider when looking at finances. Brenda: So a forensic accountant will dig deep into the nitty gritty of the family finances. Sometimes looking for misspending, hidden money, things like that. Sometimes involved in putting values to things. So if you’re dividing things, you got to know what you’re dividing. What is it worth? So a forensic accountant is often worthwhile when there are big financial questions or money might be hidden somewhere. It’s harder and harder to hide money. Because there’s an electronic trail, a paper trail, and tax trails, for almost every transaction we do. Financial Abuse In Divorce: The Cost Of Financial Investigations Brenda: Unless you’re dealing in cash or trade, it has a trail, so it’s harder to hide. It’s not impossible, but it’s harder. For most people, it’s not necessary if you don’t have a complex situation. Often hired, often overkill, if there’s not a lot of money at stake. So I had a client come to me about a year ago, and she was sure, absolutely sure her husband was hiding money. But when we kept talking about it, the amount she thought he was hiding. It would have cost her so much more money to find it than it was worth. So we’ve got to figure out what it’s worth. Is it millions at stake? Are there tens of thousands of dollars missing? Then it’s probably worthwhile. If we’re talking a thousand dollars, that might have set aside. You will probably pay much more in professional fees to track that down. Than you’re ever going to get back. As you’re approaching all this and trying to get smarter about your financial situation. Whether you’re aware of everything. Some of the good questions to ask yourself are at what cost? What’s the return on that investment? If you get that information, is it $5 or $50,000? How much are you willing to spend to get it? A forensic accountant is expensive. The spouse took out a credit card that his wife wasn’t aware of, and spent it on pornography, and a woman in Eastern Europe he kept sending money to. So he would draw it off the credit card. She was incensed, and she was very hurt. They actually went through the divorce process, and she wanted an accounting of what he had spent. So she wouldn’t be a victim of financial abuse in divorce. Is It Cost Effective To Investigate? Brenda: And I completely understand that. They weren’t in a financial situation where they could throw money away freely. But in fact, what he had spent was about $500. It was a lot, but it would have cost so much more to trace that money. It wasn’t worth it. So in that case, she knew about it. They could use it in their discussions. She’s never going to get that money back. He already spent it, but tracing it wasn’t worthwhile. Another woman did go through, it was 10,000 pages of credit card bills they gave her in a hard copy. But we found $250,000 that he had spent on a girlfriend. That was definitely worth it. Anne: So, depending on what it is, I feel the same way about alimony, for example. If the lifetime value of spousal support is $80,000, let’s say, like $10,000 for eight years, and you spend $150, 000 getting that. You should think about the numbers here. When dealing with financial abuse in divorce. Brenda: Do some math. Anne: Yeah, you do some math and figure that out on the flip side of this. I have heard of a few victims who are like, I will start hiding money, and they have the impression, and this may be true. I am unschooled on this part of it. So they’re like, I’m going to start putting money here so they can’t find it, so I’m not going to get stuck paying him alimony. Can you talk about that? Is there a way to legally protect yourself from that? For women who think there is a way to hide the money, can you maybe talk them through this situation? Brenda: Maybe, but at what cost? Legal & Ethical Considerations Brenda: First of all, is there a legal way to hide money? Not really. In that case, if you’re going through divorce, you’re signing a contract on file with the court. And you’re essentially saying whether it’s mediation, collaborative process, litigation, whatever you go through. Every document I’ve ever seen says I told the truth and disclosed everything. So that’s pretty heavy. If you’re going to hide money and you’re still okay with signing that, and then it’s found out later, you’re not in a good situation. So again, was it worth it? Is there a legal way? There are tricks that people and groups will share about how to stash away a little cash. Sometimes it might be necessary. I’ve seen partners cut their partner off and stop paying the bills out of spite. That is financial abuse in divorce. Anne: That happened to me. I was completely cut off from finances, yeah. Brenda: If you could be at risk and say physical safety of not being able to have food, shelter and clothing, you’re not able to live safely. Can you set aside money? Yes, the hiding it part is where it gets tricky. If the money is marital, you have a right to it. It is not uncommon. I’m here not working, raising the kids, and I don’t have anything of my own. Yes, you do. You have just as much right. You’re not being paid for your work, but it’s not his retirement account. It is marital. There’s a caveat to everything. If he had it before you got married, that part’s not marital. But anything earned or saved during a marriage, unless it’s a gift or inheritance, because again, caveat, is marital, you have a right to it. Financial Abuse In Divorce: Different Laws In Different States Brenda: It’s not like you’re hiding and stealing if you’re taking money to ensure you can live. Anne: In my case, I had paid $100,000 of his school debt when we got married. That was pre-marital assets in my case, because I was a teacher for 10 years and saved well and a bunch of stuff. And I did not get that back, because I apparently commingled it. Then my grandma, when she died, had given me a small sum of money. You’re saying if it’s an inheritance, it’s yours. During mediation, instead of saying it’s the law, I’ll give it to her. He said, I know how much she loved her grandma, and I would never want to take that away from her. As if he was just being so nice. Instead of me realizing in that moment, he was just trying to look good when he had to give it back, no matter what. Brenda: He had to give it back if it stayed in your name. If you put it in a joint bank account, not the case. Anne: It was in a joint bank account. So maybe he was “being nice.” Brenda: Yeah. Anne: He wasn’t. Brenda: Exactly, he was looking good. Anne: For whatever reason he wanted to look good. Brenda: I guess this is the difference between a financial advisor who you might have to help plan your retirement and what have you. And a certified divorce financial analyst, because divorce has its own money roles. They are actually different partnerships, depending on the state you live in, and can have their own money rules. Some recognize it like a common law marriage, even if you’re not married. Others don’t, and your rights vary depending on where you live. Anne: Yeah. Empowerment & Rights Anne: That’s good to know. With your financial experience, what would you say to women skeptical about their financial future, victims of financial abuse in divorce? Brenda: I would say you have value and rights, it is in your best interest to know them. Sometimes you’re not going to like what you learn, but you’ll have the information you need to start seeing a different future. To take control of your own situation. Even if it’s a little thing at a time, if you are not safe, and that doesn’t feel good. And you’ve been gaslit or brainwashed to believe you don’t have rights to have financial information. Everything in the marriage belongs to the abuser, not to you. You have been told you’re lucky to be there. I would say you’re probably not lucky to be there. The more you surround yourself with the support of people who tell you that you have value, that you have worth. As challenging or huge as moving out of that space might seem. Even a little step, like a little crack in the situation, can then become bigger. Hopefully, you’ll find yourself in a space where you are safe. Whether it’s married or not in a relationship, where you are safe and valued. Often in an abusive situation, you are made to feel small, and as though you owe something to the abuser. You don’t, you are complete, whole and valuable. You don’t have to give in to financial abuse in divorce. Anne: Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode and sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it. Her website is bridgingdivorcesolutions.com. Brenda, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. Brenda: Thank you, I appreciate it. I appreciate the work you do. It’s incredibly important.

Transcribed - Published: 22 April 2025

By the time many women find Betrayal Trauma Recovery they’ve already spent years trying to get answers to the reasons behind their husband’s betrayal. They’ve gone to couples counseling, addiction therapy, or programs focused on marriage therapy for infidelity, hoping a professional will finally uncover the whole truth. Even if you’ve never formally tried marriage therapy for infidelity, you may still recognize the experience of trying to piece together what really happened. You’re probably asking questions like: “Did you have an affair?” “When did it start?” “Is there more that you’re not telling me?” Therapists in recovery programs like these sometimes use a tool called a therapeutic disclosure. The idea is that a therapist guides the couple through a structured process to uncover the “root cause” of the husband’s behavior and document his history of addiction, secrecy, and infidelity. In theory, this is supposed to bring the full truth into the open. But when deception or abuse are already part of the relationship, therapeutic disclosures used in marriage therapy for infidelity can actually create new risks instead of bringing real clarity. To see if any of the things he’s disclosing qualify as emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse test. Below are five reasons therapeutic disclosures used in marriage therapy for infidelity can delay safety. 1. Marriage Therapy for Infidelity Often Starts by Asking a Liar to Tell the Whole Truth Many therapy models frame infidelity primarily as addiction, shame, or a relationship issue that needs healing. But when deception, coercion, and emotional abuse are present, the core problem may not be addiction or communication. The issue may be exploitation and manipulation. When therapy focuses on uncovering the psychological “why” instead of addressing ongoing deception, the betrayed wife can remain exposed to the same harmful patterns while waiting for the process to work. 2. Manipulation Can Continue Inside Marriage Therapy for Infidelity Being in marriage therapy for infidelity does not automatically stop harmful behavior. A man who has been deceptive, coercive, or controlling can bring those same patterns into recovery programs or counseling environments. If the underlying issue is character rather than coping skills, therapy can become another environment where manipulation continues, sometimes with new language and new tools. The presence of a therapist does not automatically create safety. 3. Therapeutic Disclosures in Marriage Therapy for Infidelity Can Miss the Real Problem: Emotional Abuse Because therapeutic disclosures often keep women in close proximity to emotional abuse, it’s important to understand how manipulation can continue during the process. Abusive men often use “trickle truth,” revealing small pieces of information over time. What looks like honesty can actually be a calculated way to control the situation and prolong the manipulation. Emotionally abusive men aren’t abusive simply because of trauma or shame. Abuse is a choice. Many people experience trauma or struggle with shame and choose healthier ways to cope—exercise, hobbies, talking to friends. Abuse is one option among many, and it’s a deliberate one. Therapy is meant to explore why someone behaves the way they do. But with an emotionally abusive man, the search for a “root cause” can become another opportunity for manipulation. He may offer explanations or excuses that shift the focus away from his behavior. Instead of bringing clarity, the process can leave both the therapist and the wife chasing reasons while the abuse continues. In situations like this, it’s often safer for the betrayed wife not to participate in the abusive partner’s therapy process at all. 4. Marriage Therapy for Infidelity Can Teach a Manipulator How to Sound Empathetic If a man is lying, marriage therapy for infidelity can backfire. Instead of creating honesty, it can give him new language to manipulate you more effectively. In many recovery programs, therapists teach things like empathy statements or communication tools meant to help him express remorse. But if he isn’t actually empathetic, those tools can make the situation worse. He may learn how to sound understanding without truly changing his behavior. Before, you might have been able to tell when he lacked empathy. After therapy, he may simply have better words to hide it. 5. Therapeutic Disclosures in Marriage Therapy for Infidelity Can Prolong Manipulation The process of crafting a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity can take months or even years. And he’s likely going to manipulate you throughout the entire process, so it just prolongs his manipulation. Instead of convincing a husband to do a therapeutic disclosure, women who experience betrayal can focus on their own emotional and psychological safety. Learn More About the Risks of Marriage Therapy for Infidelity: Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Determine Her Husband’s True Character: Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop to determine if your husband is emotionally abusive and to gain strategies for safety. Get Professional Support: Facing this type of abuse is difficult. There is a community of women who understand. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. Transcript: MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY? THE RISKS YOU NEED TO KNOW Anne:  Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I’m Anne. By the time betrayed women find my organization, Betrayal trauma Recovery, they’ve already spent years and tons of money on couple therapy or addiction therapy like for sex addiction. Even if you’ve never considered marriage therapy for infidelity, if you are trying to get the truth out of your husband, asking questions like, “Did you have an affair?”, “When did the affair start?” Or “That one night you said you couldn’t help me with my project. Were you with her?” you’re likely frustrated and confused. I’ve interviewed more women than I can count who have been to marriage therapy for infidelity and revealed what actually happens. Usually the therapist suggests a therapeutic disclosure as part of that therapy process. I’m gonna do a quick overview right now of the five things I’m gonna cover in depth today, And then after I’ll go into the details of each of these things. So here’s the quick overview. 5 RISKS OF Therapeutic DisclosureS IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Here’s the quick overview: Asking a liar to tell you the truth about what he lied about is problematic. So whether your therapist says that he can get him to tell the truth, or if you’re a woman who’s trying to by asking him questions, either way, you need to know what obstacles you might to run into. Even if he says he’s willing to go to therapy for infidelity, or the therapist tells you that the truth will come out, think about his history. If he’s always told you what you wanna hear, this could be just a continuation of that. And there’s a way to know if this time it’s different. Let’s say he did tell the truth of all of his sexual indiscretions. Even in that case, it won’t account for all the gaslighting. It’s highly unlikely that he’ll tell you all of his efforts to hide what he was doing, amounts to emotional and psychological abuse. There’s so much here, so stick around so I can explain everything. If he’s lying, marriage therapy for infidelity is going to backfire because he is gonna start using therapy language in order to better manipulate you. I’ll share the things that therapists give him in order to “help” him. Like empathy scripts tend to make it worse because he is not actually empathetic. Whereas before you could tell he wasn’t empathetic. In terms of a therapeutic disclosure, that process can take months or even years. And he’s likely going to manipulate you throughout the entire process, so it just prolongs his manipulation. So if you’ve been trying to get the truth out of your husband and you’re considering maybe marriage therapy for infidelity, I just want you to understand the risks involved before you schedule an appointment. WHAT IS A THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURE IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: When you discover your husband is looking at online content, lying, having affairs, or soliciting, someone might tell you, or you may think he’s a sex addict. And if you go to addiction therapy. There’s a high likelihood that an addiction therapist, will have him do a therapeutic disclosure. So we’re going to talk about why I think therapeutic disclosures are dangerous. And then you decide what you want to do after listening to what I have to say. So, first of all, what is a therapeutic disclosure? It is a process that involves the addict disclosing their full history to his wife. In a “so-called structured way” with the guidance of a therapist. In theory, the purpose of a therapeutic disclosure is to provide the betrayed wife all the information she needs. For her to make informed decisions about the relationship moving forward. Now, I want to talk about all the reasons why that doesn’t make sense. First of all, their history does not include all the times they manipulated their wife over little and big things. All the lies, all the emotional and psychological abuse, and the coercion. It does not address his emotional abuse, which is the actual problem. If you take that to the next logical step, you might say, then I’m going to get them in an abuse program. Well, an abuse program is pretty much the exact same thing. It’s in a couple setting where the wife says, Hey, these are the things I need to see. This is what I want to know. The RISKS Of TherapEUTIC Disclosures IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: There’s really no difference. Your abusive husband can manipulate the therapist. He can take his time and drag it out. Like he has a lot of control to exploit that situation. So abuse experts understand that anything therapeutic will worsen the abuse. Because men aren’t abusive because of their childhood trauma or shame, or for any other reason other than they want to exploit people. I know many people with childhood trauma. I feel shame. And I watch a lot of TV sometimes, or I might go for a walk. I call my sister, you know, some people use model trains. Abuse is not the only option here. There are so many other options. Nothing’s gonna stop him from wanting to exploit the situation. Except for him wanting to stop. And if he wanted to stop, he wouldn’t be like that in the first place. So abuse is a choice. The purpose of therapy is to uncover the underlying cause of a person’s behavior. So in therapy, an abusive, manipulative, deceitful man will run the therapist and his wife in circles. He’ll give both of them all sorts of reasons. And most of these reasons are lies, and then these “reasons” take on a life of their own. So it’s best to stay away from being involved in an abusive man’s therapy, treatment, or program at all costs. A therapist could tell you that a therapeutic disclosure is important, to “avoid trickle disclosures.” And that sounds like a good idea. If a therapist tells you we’re going to do this, so you can get the whole truth. So he doesn’t just give you a little information. here and there. Waiting For A Therapeutic Disclosure Can Keep Women In Unsafe Situations Anne: But what they won’t tell you is this is just an abuser lying. He’ll disclose bits of information tactically to manipulate, distress you or drag things out. They know that this process of disclosing things at tactical times gives them control. So they’re going to prolong the process for as long as possible to maintain that control. Throughout that whole thing she’s still unsafe. She’s unsafe at every point. Not realizing she’s being lied to and manipulated, staying in contact with his constant abuse. Most often in the form of grooming. And because they’re doing this, victims undergo immense trauma for that time. Now, even if they don’t realize it, it seems like it’s going well. So many women come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and share six months after the disclosure or two years later. They realize what was happening. And they realized it was all lies and manipulation. They are so traumatized that they spent that much time basically just in this fog. With a therapist possibly enabling their continued abuse. Years ago, when I started podcasting, I interviewed a C-SAT about disclosures. She disagrees with me and thinks disclosures are great. And she uses them in her practice. When I interviewed her, it was really at the beginning. I didn’t love disclosures, but I was willing to have an open-mind. I posted the interview on my podcast, and then pretty soon after removed it. Because I realized this is problematic, and I don’t want to hurt someone’s reputation. My podcast isn’t a gotcha podcast. I appreciate everyone who has spent the time to come and be interviewed. QUESTIONS ABOUT Therapeutic Disclosures in Marriage Therapy FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Sometimes I disagree with people. And because of the way the interview goes, I don’t air that episode. Because I want to make sure I’m putting out the best information that I feel good about. I also want to acknowledge that some of you may have actually gone through this process, and it worked out great for you. If you feel that way, go to the bottom of this transcript, and comment. You can interact with our community about your experience. If it worked for you, I’m so glad it did. I don’t want to recommend it to anyone. And I’ll tell you the reasons why, but I also don’t want you to feel bad if you did it and it worked out great for you. Everybody is different. But reading the transcript of this podcast from years ago, which hasn’t even been in circulation, right? I took it out of circulation years ago. We talked about therapeutic disclosures. There are so many important points that I wanted to talk about. Now part of that episode was that we sent out a call for questions about disclosures at that time. And women wrote in their questions. So here’s a question that we received. One community member asked. Shouldn’t it be up to the wife to know or ask anything she needs to, even if it hurts her and causes her more pain? Is pain the enemy here? Isn’t unknowingly being in an unsafe situation far more dangerous? So that was the first question. Therapists’ Assumptions & Misconceptions ABOUT THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES Anne: Now this therapist said she thought it was up to the partner to decide the level of detail they wanted in the disclosure. Which is fascinating to me that this therapist assumed this guy would somehow tell the truth. Or that she could get the level of information she actually wanted. He’s super manipulative. So putting a woman in this position where you’re giving her the impression that she can get information. If he is a liar who manipulates people, is super scary. The woman who asked the question says, isn’t unknowingly being in an unsafe situation, far more dangerous? Yes, a hundred percent, but the disclosure itself is an unsafe situation. I’m going to talk about what to do, instead of a disclosure at the end. So keep listening, because I will give you an alternative. This therapist said when she starts disclosures, and I’m going to do a quote here. She said, “For me, when I’m leading disclosures or doing trainings about disclosures, I encourage partners to start with the least amount of detail. You can ask more, you have a right to ask for more information, but let’s be slow and careful. That it’s not too much information for your brain. Some of this information will be traumatic for you.” Like, you know, it’s going to be really traumatic for you. And so maybe you shouldn’t find out that it is insane for a therapist to say this. I can’t believe I had this episode up for a while. WHY HER SAFETY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN HIS HEALING Anne: This therapist said, “So sometimes people get caught up in the emotion, and they want to know more and more. And that’s fine if they want to know, but I always ask them. Do you want to know? Is it going to be helpful in your healing?” Why would not knowing the truth be helpful in any situation? Like you can’t heal without the truth. Because if you don’t know what the truth is about the situation, you can’t make good choices. So why would anyone imply it’s okay? To not be aware of who your husband really is. Why would a therapist want to hide a man’s true character from his wife? Then I asked the therapist. What about safety issues, like isn’t that the most important thing? And she was like, oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We need to think about safety, but that was not the first thing she said. And she didn’t even mention it. Instead she was like, Does she want to know the truth or does she want to heal? And when it came to safety, the only thing she mentioned was getting an STD test. She did not tell me how to set boundaries. And I thought. You’re not going to mention that lying is emotional abuse, or the psychological abuse, or grooming? The fact that the thing you’re doing right now, her involvement with his therapy, his addiction recovery. Is counter-indicated when it comes to abuse. And you’re not talking about abuse. That’s dangerous. Safety Concerns ABOUT THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES Anne: So when I asked her this. This was her response. She said, “I work with addicts and their partners. When I work with an addict and help him prepare his disclosure. We’re looking at all the categories of behavior and addiction. He may not have behavior in all categories, but I want them to go through an inventory of every category. And then she starts talking about literally the details of the acting out, like specific ways he has behaved. And she starts delineating these things, and I’m like, what about abuse? She’s still not even saying this man is abusive and manipulative. How does all the different ways he had cheated, help her know that this is abuse? So then I asked her. What about other questions that aren’t related to this kind of behavior? Like lying. So I keep trying to go back to this, and she said that’s a hard one, because addicts have lied for so long. It’s hard for them to go through all the lies and correct all the lies in a disclosure. But isn’t that the point of a disclosure to find out the truth? You’re just going to hear me getting frustrated as I talk about this interview and the things she told me. Because it starts going around and around in circles. And I’m trying, but she doesn’t want to connect the dots. And so it got more frustrating as time went on. Then she says something that we absolutely do not recommend. And you’ll know why at the end. She says the addict prepares a disclosure document in marriage therapy for infidelity. HOW THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES GIVE A LIAR TIME TO CRAFT A STORY Anne: So basically, you’re giving this man a lot of time to write down all his manipulative reasons and craft this narrative any way he wants. To paint himself any way he chooses. Usually they paint themselves where they’re a victim in some way, they’re a victim because their dad didn’t love them enough. Or they’re a victim because their relationship with their mom is bad or they’re a victim because their dog died. So really, this disclosure is just putting her in the position to be lied to more. And the therapist said, okay, so she’s going to get this paper of this narrative that he concocted? And that’s when she gets to start asking him questions about it. But if he’s going to continue to lie. Do you see the problem? We’re going in circles. And this is a direct quote. She said, “Sometimes the disclosure can be a time for lies. Sometimes there are so many lies. The addict will never be able to tell the truth about them all. And the question is, Is the addict trying to live, honestly? Has he lied to her to protect her? What? No, nope, that’s not the reason. And then she says this, and this is what I just talked about. “And usually the lying comes from a behavior much younger, and from another time. It doesn’t excuse it, but it does explain it. And then we can get to the root of it.” Like, no, he just lied because he chose to, and he’s continuing the lie because he chooses to. MANIPULATION CAN CONTINUE EVEN WITH A THERAPIST INVOLVED Anne: Then I say to this therapist, she doesn’t need to worry about why he’s lying. The lying in and of itself is dangerous, and she needs to be shielded from being lied to. All she needs to understand is the type of character he has. That this was emotional and psychological abuse, and coercion. And he’s continuing to do it. So I go back to the safety issue. Because like, you’re still not getting it. Like, are you going to get it in this interview? She says, “I think the disclosure is important, because one person has knowledge and information about the relationship that the other doesn’t.” Absolutely, but do you think someone who is hiding something on purpose, who has for years. Who is now being forced to do it by will be like, okay, I’m going to do it now in marriage therapy for infidelity. Like, no, this is just an opportunity for more of it. So the therapist said, “This is a rebalancing of the information” and I’m like, no, it’s not. That is not what is happening. It is not a rebalancing of the information. If they’re going to continue to manipulate and lie through the whole process. So I never really got anywhere. We just talked in circles. And then here was the second question we had from our community. Why is the couple involved in a disclosure? Isn’t that couple therapy and couple therapy is counter-indicated when there’s abuse. And the therapist was like, I would never want clients to go to couples therapy when there is abuse involved. Uh, it’s all abuse. And you were working with the couple to do the disclosure. ISSUES WITH GROOMING DURING THE THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURE PROCESS Anne: Like can we put two and two together here? A therapeutic disclosure is not necessarily marriage therapy for infidelity, but she is involved. She is talking about what she needs and wants. She’s telling the therapist things that the therapist will tell him. There is some communication. This is definitely a couple endeavor. I don’t ever hear of addicts doing disclosures completely by themselves. Without their wife being involved. That might be the only scenario where this might work. If he went in completely by himself, went to therapy all by himself, his wife was not involved. But then wouldn’t he be like, I’m going to tell the truth. So we wouldn’t even need therapy. So I asked her specifically, aren’t you concerned about grooming that’s taking place during this disclosure process or during this time of therapy? That’s not considered “couple therapy,” but basically it is because the therapist is in communication with both people. Sometimes they’ll meet together. And she said, “I’ve never seen it from a grooming perspective.” There are a few individuals who learn a little bit. And then they use it against their partner. And at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we say that almost exclusively. So the fact that she thought it was just a few people and we’re like, um, this is on a like grand scale that this happens. So then I talk more about grooming and I talk about empathy scripts. MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN TEACH A MANIPULATOR HOW TO SOUND EMPATHETIC Anne: So, what I’ve seen with men’s programs, even abuse programs. The therapist will be like, Okay, you don’t know how to be empathetic. So I’m going to help you learn what to say. But because they’re not genuinely empathetic, the therapist is like, well, I’m going to teach them. And they’ll just have to act like it until they become it. That sounds okay in theory. But in real practice, if they are not empathetic, they are not safe. If you’re in a room with someone who genuinely does not care about you at all. They’re not concerned about your emotional safety, your physical safety. They don’t care. They just want to exploit you and groom you. Them grooming you better with an empathy script is extremely dangerous. Because then they sound better. They can manipulate you more. So I brought this up, and the therapist said empathy scripts. Wow, I haven’t heard of that before. Then she said, “The way I look at it is if he comes home and uses the words I gave him or taught him, I always say, this is a good thing. Now I assume his intentions are true and his intentions are good. Because he’s trying new skills, and doesn’t have his own language yet.” So do you see the problem here? If he doesn’t have the ability to be empathetic, he’s mimicking it. He may use that and concentrate on how to use it to groom his wife. She assumes he’s trying to connect. But maybe he’s not. Maybe he’s like, okay, I’ve got to check all these boxes to continue to exploit the situation. https://youtu.be/FvIlEiaGPY8 WHY OBSERVING Genuine Change FROM A PLACE OF SAFETY MATTERS Anne: So then I asked her, how do you tell the difference in marriage therapy for infidelity between practicing a genuine new skill he wants, or is he using this to manipulate her? And she said, trust is built over time, which is true. And then she said, let’s sit back and watch. Which I also agree with. So why not just sit back and watch from the beginning? Why teach him all the empathy scripts? Why have him write out a big thing about his disclosure and all the lies? Is it just because you want them to spend a ton of money on therapy? Like you can sit back and watch without all that. In fact, instead of putting yourself in harm’s way—to be lied to—you can observe at a safe distance from the beginning, and not spend any money to know if he’s safe or not. All right, another question from a community member. She asked, Why do some therapists not include the state of the family finances in the full disclosure? This is a very important piece of information for a woman to have. The therapist says, “That is something that, I’ll say, unless a partner brings it up I will forget to ask that. It’s not on the top of my brain.” So if abuse is not on the top of the therapist’s brain, do you see how they’re not going to identify the abuse? And then the therapist says, I don’t know that it’s forgotten on purpose. I’m just not sure it’s on the top of our to-do list when we’re assessing for addiction and lies. So does this therapist think hiding money is not a lie? Because it is. The Transactional Nature Of THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Then I asked the therapist. Are there any abuse issues you have found helpful for women to ask about in the disclosure? And she said, no, she didn’t think so. And that she just saw it as a data exchange. Which confirms my theory about couple therapy or therapy in this instance. When it comes to abuse, he is basically facilitating his transactionship. That he’s like, I’m going to check all these boxes. I’m going to write out a big document where I can craft a narrative that paints me as a victim. And if I do these things, she’ll let me back in the house. And the therapist is like, yep. Check, check, check. Sounds right, using the empathy scripts. We’re good to go. But he actually is still that exploitative person. And he used that whole process as a transaction. So the fact that she’s like, this is just a data exchange. She even uses the word exchange, which was super alarming. All right. Another question from the community. The question from the community is, do you have any tips on how a spouse or former spouse who is not getting a disclosure moves forward? All she said basically was that it’s very hard when you don’t get the answers and don’t get the information you need. And that’s going to take a lot of time and coaching to come to grips with, she actually said coaching. Which I thought was interesting. But she’s not acknowledging that even with the disclosure process, you’re still not going to get all the information. All you’ll get is a bunch of checked boxes and a document that he’s carefully crafted. That’s it, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true. Tips FOR BETRAYED WIVES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Prepping for a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity sometimes takes six months, a year or two years of going to therapy once a week. And a victim often goes to therapy, maybe not once a week, but often to be part of this process. While he takes all this time to manufacture the narrative. That seems absolutely dangerous. And a waste of time and money. I do have some tips about it, and I will share them with you now. I want you to think about what you know, so rather than going with your abuser to addiction therapy. Take one hour. Get out a pen and paper. And sit down at your kitchen table. And list all the things that you know. So for me, it would have been, I know he leaves the house at 10:00 PM, and I don’t know where he goes. And he gets home at like one in the morning or two in the morning. And I don’t know where he’s been. I’ve never been able to get a straight answer, I know that. I know that he screams in my face. And I know he’s punched a few walls. I know that he doesn’t make sense. I know that he has lied to me about this, this, this, and this. So write all the things that you know. I’m not sure why they would take two years to force a known pathological liar to tell the truth. When they could just say, you already know. Let’s focus on what you know. IssueS With Polygraphs Anne: Now once you have everything you know written down. Compare that to what abuse is, and then you’ll answer, is he abusive? Observe over time to see what his character is. And that’s all you need to know. When you know who he is, because you can see him clearly. Then you’ll feel confident in your choices. But if you can’t see him clearly, it’s hard to be confident about your choices. Women who are going through the therapeutic disclosure process in marriage therapy for infidelity are having a hard time because they’re still exposed to all that manipulation. Here’s the last question from our community members. She asked how accurate are lie detector tests? There are many addicts who won’t do them because they say they’re not accurate. Do you use them in your practice? If so, can you debunk misunderstandings about their accuracy and effectiveness in re-establishing trust in relationships? So I know a lot of women whose husbands have done disclosures and had polygraphs. And they’ve said they were helpful. So if they have been helpful to you, I’m glad they worked for you. This therapist said, she likes polygraphs and lie detectors. So she uses them in her practice. She claims they have an 80% accuracy rate. And then she said in my world, that’s better than not knowing. And I’m like, if it’s only 80% accuracy, you still don’t know. So it’s not better than not knowing, because it’s the exact same thing. Again, the reason why I don’t like polygraphs is still, the focus is on trying to get him to tell you something. Rather than having confidence in yourself and what you already know. Relying On Personal Observations INSTEAD OF THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES Anne: Anytime we’re trying to protect ourselves from his emotional abuse by trying to get something from him. Or having someone else get it through his brain, like clergy or a marriage therapy for infidelity couple therapist or an addiction recovery specialist. That is how the abuser will manipulate you. The thing about polygraphs that makes me nervous is they might tell the truth about the questions that the polygrapher is asking. But there’s so much that we wouldn’t know. I’m a woman of faith. If you’re not, you’re welcome here. But just for my own faith perspective. I don’t think there is any human earthly ability to genuinely detect if someone is lying, other than through observing them. Also I don’t think there’s a way to force them to tell the truth. I think God created this earthly life with that scenario, because it’s part of our earthly test. I think the only person who knows the truth is God. And so, I would prefer to turn to God to pray to feel the spirit, and then observe from a safe distance to know. That’s a safer situation. Because it focuses on what you know, and what God is telling you. Rather than rely on anything the abuser is saying, or someone he is manipulating, like a therapist or clergy is saying. This therapist, this is a direct quote. She says, “The thing about the polygraph, I really want to make sure folks understand, is that it’s not a statement of truth.” I’m reading this word for word. She said, “It’s not a statement of truth. It’s what he says is true.” And then she gives a confusing example that didn’t make any sense. I couldn’t make heads or tails of it. Therapist’s Views On Polygraphs Anne: And then she says this, “The polygraph is only checking what he thinks to be true. It doesn’t check his memory. It doesn’t check if he’s forgetting, it doesn’t check if his memory is wrong. So that’s an important piece that partners need to know before they go in. So, if he says this is everything and passes the polygraph, there are so many times when by virtue of exploring, investigating, or researching the data. She’s referring to all the months he spends crafting his narrative about. Apparently, “all the addiction acting out.” Okay, quoting her again now. “So he goes into a polygraph and passes. And then the next night, the victim will say, wait, what about this? And the addict will say, oh, I forgot about that.” So she is saying I use polygraphs, but a lot of the time. The truth isn’t included. And then she says this. “This is not them manipulating. This is them remembering one more thing.” So they always have some excuse, apparently according to a C-SAT to not tell the truth, I guess. That just sounds like chaos and pain. So then I tell her a few examples of women who came to Betrayal Trauma Recovery after marriage therapy for infidelity and told us their disclosure horror stories. One of them, a man went in to do a polygraph and he passed. But the things that he said were true, she knew were not true. And the therapist said, well, he passed the polygraph, so he’s great. I don’t know why you don’t believe him. It was just a nightmare for her. The Chaos Incomplete Disclosures CREATE IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: And I talked about that, and the therapist said, “Sometimes the guy is not yet out of his layers of denial enough that he’s seeing the full picture.” I think it’s more that he’s manipulating on purpose. That he’s good at lying and manipulating. And then she said, “but any disclosure is better than none.” Basically saying that even if it’s all abuse and a mess, and he’s saying certain truths in a tactical fashion to manipulate the whole situation. That’s better than not being abused. I disagree. I don’t think any disclosure is better than none. because the disclosure in and of itself is just abuse the whole time. No disclosure is better than any disclosure at all. So then in the end I asked her, is there anything else you want to share about disclosures? And she says, “I think your community is amazing and that you’re doing a great job.” That’s nice of her to say that, even though now I’m like throwing her under the bus. And the reason why I didn’t want to do her voice is because I have no intention of harming anyone’s reputation, but I want to educate you about the dangers of disclosures. What she wanted to say at the end was that she knows that women in our situation want to know the truth. They want to know exactly what happened. And then she said, and sometimes we need to break the disclosure into two pieces. Get the safety items taken care of immediately. FINAL THOUGHTS ON MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Uh, that’s like 10 minutes after she said you have to observe and wait to know if they’re safe. You can’t get any safety items taken care of immediately. That’s not how safety works. You have to observe from a safe distance for a long time to see what their actions are. So I don’t even know what she means when she says get the safety items taken care of immediately. That’s just not a thing. She’s not only contradicting herself, she’s also showing that she doesn’t understand how safety works. And then she says, if they can wait a little longer, it will take a lot of time. And if you’re more patient, it’s going to get better. So she assumes you can create safety immediately. Then you need to take a lot of time to see if he’s safe, almost in the same breath. That doesn’t make sense to me. All right now, I’m going to talk about what you should do, instead of asking for a therapeutic disclosure. I know that in your desire to have a therapeutic disclosure, couple therapy or get clergy to help him. You are resisting the abuse. You’re doing everything right. You’re trying to stop this, because you want a safe place for your family. So you’re doing amazing. You’re doing everything you’re supposed to do. This is not your fault, and this is not your problem. This is the problem of addiction therapists who don’t know anything about abuse, who are putting women in harm’s way. That has nothing to do with you. Educating Yourself About Abuse Anne: Instead of doing a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity, the number one thing is to educate yourself about abuse, so that you can start seeing the truth of your situation. You might find that he’s not as abusive as you thought. You might find out that he’s really abusive. But getting educated about abuse will help. Number two, determine your husband’s true character from your own observations. That’s why I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. It takes you through step-by-step how to observe from a safe distance. You could still be in your home. This doesn’t necessarily mean you have to move out to observe from a safe distance. It gives you strategies to do this, whether you’re in the home or even if you’re divorced, they work no matter what. So that you determine if he has a safe character from what you know, and you don’t have to rely on him for any information whatsoever. Getting The Right Support Anne: And then the third is to get the right support from people who understand emotional abuse and betrayal trauma. That could be a group at your local domestic violence shelter. It could be a therapist who understands abuse dynamics, who does not know your husband. Who will not talk to your husband. Who’s not going to have anything to do with him. It could be our online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.

Transcribed - Published: 15 April 2025

Hidden abuse is characterized by lies and manipulation, and it causes trauma that’s hard to recognize. To discover if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of hidden abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz. This episode follows Penny’s Story How to Start to Heal From Emotional Abuse – Penny’s Story Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse – What Gets In Our Way? – Penny’s Take (THIS EPISODE) What Is Hidden Abuse? One of the biggest obstacles in healing trauma from hidden abuse is understanding what’s happening to you. The constant barrage of lies and manipulation from the abuser can make it incredibly difficult for women to see the reality of their situation. Gaslighting, a common tactic, can distort a woman’s perception of reality, making her doubt her judgment and experiences. Traditional therapists, clergy, and even well-meaning friends and family may not recognize hidden abuse for what it is. Barriers To Discovering Hidden Abuse: Lack of Understanding: Many women fail to recognize lies, pornography use, and infidelity as forms of emotional and psychological abuse. Misguided Strategies: Conventional advice focuses on improving communication and forgiveness rather than educating about abuse and implementing safety strategies. Isolation: Feeling misunderstood leads to social withdrawal, making it harder to seek support. Being Dismissed: Without a supportive network that acknowledges abuse, women begin to question their experiences and feelings. Stigma: Fear of judgment and the stigma of “giving up on the relationship” or not being a good wife prevents women from seeking emotional safety. Guilt and Shame: Self-blame (or being blamed by the abuser) stops women from reaching out for help. Trying to Fix Yourself: Believing the problem lies within themselves keeps women from finding emotional safety. Confusion: Manipulation tactics like gaslighting cause confusion and self-doubt. Entrapment: Continued manipulation leaves women feeling trapped. Pressure to Reconcile: Cultural and religious norms prioritize preserving the marriage over individual well-being. When You Go For Help, But They Don’t Identify Hidden Abuse If you’ve tried to figure out what’s going on and you haven’t been able to feel more emotionally safe, there is help. The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast helps women learn more about how to spot hidden abuse. Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse IS Possible If you’re struggling to heal the trauma from hidden abuse, consider attending a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY and take the first step toward a brighter, healthier future. Transcript: Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse Anne: Penny is back on today’s episode. You can find her story in an episode called How to Start to Heal from Emotional Abuse, Penny’s story. We wanted to talk about the aftermath of emotional abuse, how it’s misunderstood by people in general, and how to face that. So welcome back, Penny. Penny: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Anne: So this type of hidden abuse where you don’t have someone charged with domestic violence. Why do you think it’s so hard for people to understand what it takes to heal trauma from hidden abuse? Penny: Yeah, I think like you said, they don’t see any bruises, scars, or black eyes. We want to fit in and be accepted. We don’t want to be different. And so we look normal on the outside, but the inside is where the pain, results, and leftover baggage from emotional abuse is. Things like fear, anxiety, and unsureness. Am I doing the right thing? Am I saying the right thing? And so this kind of stuff lingers with a person for a long time, or at least in my case, a very long time. And still does, even though I’ve been working on recovery for decades. Anne: Yeah, the lack of self confidence is due to emotional abuse, because that was the purpose of the emotional abuse. This is why it’s so important to find a betrayal trauma support group. For years, someone intentionally undermined your sense of self, and also purposefully undermined your, I call it a sacred internal warning system, where you know something’s wrong. Rebuilding Self-Identity Anne: You’re trying to resist something that’s harming you. You don’t have the words to describe it. You’re going to the person who is harming you and telling him, “You’re harming me”, but he already knows. He knows he’s exploiting you. So he takes that as a cue, “Okay, I need to undermine her sense that something’s wrong.” Otherwise, I’m not able to exploit her.” So it doesn’t help to share your feelings with him. He purposefully erodes your sense of self over time. And when you’re safe from the abuse and not exposed to it anymore, rebuilding that sense of self is such a process. Penny: Part of the emotional abuse I was put through was with my stepmother when I was a child, and it carried with me to my young adulthood when I married early. My stepmother told me constantly, you’re dumb, you’re stupid, you’re worthless, you’ll never amount to anything. So, of course, I had a low opinion of myself going into adulthood. Even though on the outside, you may not have seen that. It was trauma from hidden abuse. And so when I married young and married a partner who tried to control me and told me that I was in sin. Because the pastor told him that I was in sin, he wouldn’t listen to me. There was nothing to talk about, and I was wrong. And as soon as I repented, we would be back to normal, and all would be fine. And I think it was pressure to have me confess to something, because I was too strong willed for this particular church and this particular pastor. I was too questioning. And wasn’t as docile as they wanted women to be. Societal and Religious Scripts That Hide Abuse Penny: And they actually taught that women should submit to husbands, that they should glorify God by glorifying their husbands. This is when biblical submission becomes abuse. So anything I said or did that wasn’t according to the pastor or my husband’s wishes was considered wrong. And I was told this constantly. So, when I left that abusive situation finally at 32, I questioned everything I did and said. Because my whole life, my childhood, my young adulthood, my early 20s. I was told I was wrong and my thinking was wrong, and who I was wasn’t good enough. The trauma from hidden abuse doesn’t go away overnight. And it takes a community. In my case. I moved far away and left the church. I stopped practicing that religion, and I surrounded myself with people who were smarter than me. That liked me and accepted me for who I was. And here’s an example of how I rebuilt it. One of my friends said, Penny, you should apply for this job. We have an opening at my firm. This woman was college educated, and I wasn’t, and she worked in finance, which I hardly knew what that meant. And she said, “You should apply to this job.” And I said, oh no, I can’t. I’m too stupid. And she said, Penny, you’re not stupid. You’re smart, and we’ll train you. You should apply. Guess what? I applied and they hired me over 30 or 40 other resumes that they had on their desktop. I saw a stack of resumes. Realizing Self-Worth Penny: So I knew, wait a minute, maybe my stepmother, ex-husband and pastor, maybe they were all wrong. And that’s how I slowly started rebuilding my life, surrounding my life with people who believed in me and held up a mirror to me that said, “You’re not stupid, you’re not ugly, dumb, or worthless. You are able, and here’s the proof.” And then I started college. I put myself through community college, and I started getting A’s and B’s, and the teachers started calling on me in the classroom. They held me up as an example of here’s some good thinking, here’s a person who read the work, or here’s the person who gets this idea. And slowly over time, and I’m talking decades, with the help of friends, holding up a mirror to me and showing me who I was. I started to change my opinion of myself. But it took a long time, work, and struggle and pain. Because those old thoughts and those old scripts still played in my mind. Anne: One thing I want to point out to victims is that exploitation is such a huge part of trauma from hidden abuse. It is abuse in that they want something from you, your labor, your admiration. They want you to cook them dinner, have sex with them, or go to a party with them. They want something from you. So instead of caring about you, they care about what they can get from you. His Lies & Manipulation Will Always Be Hidden Abuse Anne: And because of that, anyone who hears, you’re not good at this. If we knew what was happening, the best defense is to say, in a strategic way. I actually teach this in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Is to say something like, oh, you’re right. I bet you don’t want to be around somebody like me. That makes sense. Then leave. Then they’re like, wait, no, you can’t go. We know exploitation is the issue, because if they think so poorly of us, why would they want to be around us? Why do they not want us to leave when we say, oh, okay, we’re going to leave? Suddenly they’re like, you can’t leave. And then they want to stop you from leaving by being even more abusive, which also doesn’t make sense. If you weren’t capable, powerful and talented, they wouldn’t have anything to exploit from you. I think that’s the thing they’re trying to hide. I think they’re thinking she’s capable, smart, and awesome. If she finds out how capable she is, how smart she is. She’s not going to want to stay here. So I’ve got to hide that from her, because I want to use her talents for myself. Heaven forbid, if she used her talents for her own self and her own life. Do you think your step mom was exploiting you? Penny: I absolutely do. She was handicapped, crippled and in pain. My father was no help to her at all. He didn’t provide well, or help around the house. She needed me, but there was more to it than that. These people who exploit us, who hurt us emotionally, psychologically and physically. In her case, she was bitter and angry. Exploitation By Family Members Penny: Now that I’m a much older person and look back on it, she was angry at herself. She married my dad, who was a complete loser. Her parents warned her. Her parents said, don’t marry this guy. He’s a liar. They saw through him. She didn’t. Or she did it anyway, because she wanted to get out of her house. They not only exploit us for our labor, in her case house cleaning, babysitting, and chores. We become their punching bag, because there’s nobody else to defend us. She knew my dad was never home. So she did it when he wasn’t home, of course, and when he came home late at night, was drunk. She had hours, she had all day until 8 or 9 at night to take advantage of me and create trauma this abuse was hidden from everyone else. They break us down and make us feel small to exploit us for our labor or whatever they want from us. Because if we’re smarter than them, yes, we will leave. And eventually I did when I was old enough and had the wherewithal. But I couldn’t leave at 8, 9, 10 or 11. I had no idea where to go or how to do it. Anne: Why do you think it’s so hard for other people to see this type of trauma from hidden abuse? When a victim is either in it or healing, and they might blame her. Or say something like, you’re just bitter or you need to move on, or why can’t you get over it? Even when you’re out of it. You’re not married anymore, for example, I’m talking about the universal you. Penny: Yes. Anne: A victim is not in the relationship anymore. She’s relatively safe. Healing Trauma From Hidden Post Separation Abuse Anne: Most of us experience post separation abuse. I was abused after my divorce for eight years through my ex’s messages about our children. So most women deal with post-separation abuse. And that’s why you know, we’re not “moving on” because the abuse is right then, like it happened today. He wrote me an abusive message and lied about me today. But in terms of women who are healing trauma from hidden abuse, and maybe in a stage where they need to talk about it. Or they’re trying to process what happened, and bystanders say things like. You need to move on, or why can’t you just forgive, or give your power away? Or any of these like super hurtful things, because they don’t understand that she is healing from this type of trauma. Penny: Part of it is that for people like you and myself, and those who have experienced hidden abuse. We get how deep and painful those wounds are, and how they don’t go away. And those fortunate enough to not have that happen to them, they don’t get it. They really don’t. That’s one of the reasons why we need somebody to talk to that will validate us and help us heal. And give us a safe place where we can talk about the everyday nightmares and fears that come up in routine life. Our friends, it’s quite possible they just don’t have the capacity. And someday they will. When Therapy Makes Things Worse Penny: One of the reasons to read memoirs that may be different than your life is so that you can learn what other people have to go through to survive and to succeed. I mean, that’s why I read memoirs and I think that’s how I learn about other people and how that happened to them. Anne: Reading is so valuable. You can get inside someone’s head in a way that you can’t from, like a movie or other experience. To develop compassion for others. But I also think that’s why it’s so important to ensure you’re connected with other women who understand. That’s why we do The Betrayal Trauma Recovery daily Group Sessions and Individual Sessions. Because everybody at Betrayal Trauma Recovery has been through it. We all totally get it. Even a good therapist who hasn’t been through it will have a different take. Than someone who has been a victim who understands hidden abuse on that deep personal level. What it’s actually like. Because we’ve had so many women come to us who have gone to therapy, and the therapy actually made the situation worse. Because they didn’t understand that she was resisting the abuse the entire time. In your story, if you haven’t heard it again, her episode is called, How to Start to Heal from Emotional Abuse, Penny’s story. There’s a part, Penny, where you move out into the country. And you did that as an act of resistance. You thought, maybe it will improve our marriage if I do this. Maybe I can make things work. The same thing with the church. But some therapists might say, why did you do that? If you knew things were so bad and didn’t like him, why did you move away? Safety Strategies To Protect Yourself Anne: And the answer is I’m resisting, I’m trying to improve things. I realize it did not improve things, but my intent was to improve things. Same thing with women who are being lied to and yelled at. They might have sex with their husband, for example, and a therapist might say, why did you do that? And it’s because I thought if I did, he would not be mad at me anymore. Penny: Nobody wants to be abused. Nobody wants to be exploited. We just don’t realize, especially if you’re stuck there financially and have children. It’s hard to leave if you’re financially dependent. And they make us emotionally dependent. It’s not your fault. If you’re a victim. Anne: They’ve done a lot of damage, but I think even if it’s not a therapist, just people around saying something like, why didn’t you do this? It’s just so not helpful. Penny: Not helpful. It’s actually hurtful, because then it makes you feel like something was wrong with you for not doing more. I don’t think you had a choice. Anne: As I interview victims experiencing hidden abuse, it’s interesting. Because I’m asking questions like, and then this happened, or tell me about what you were thinking? And that’s not to victim blame or say they did something wrong. But to help other victims realize that this thought process that all of us go through is common, and that they’re not doing anything wrong. They are actually doing what anyone in this situation would do. Another point to make is the “right” thing to do, for example, stand up for yourself. Which you would think would work is not the solution. Winning Arguments Doesn’t Uncover Hidden Abuse Anne: Your background is that you had a low opinion of yourself due to your stepmother’s abuse. In my case, I had strong self esteem. And I thought I was super smart. And so I would fight my abuser and be like, what? No, you don’t have this right. And I would usually win our arguments. And he was confused, and he would say things like, “Wait a minute. How are you winning this argument? I went to law school.” My ex is an attorney, and I would say, “because you don’t make any sense.” And the reason why I would say that is because he wasn’t making any sense. Because he wanted to either exploit me or do something terrible for our family. And he was trying to give me like a bogus reason. This will be good for our family, because we’ll have this awesome rally car in our driveway, and it will make our neighbors think we’re cool. Something like that. And I was like, what are you talking about? You are not making any sense. But the reason why I bring this up is that so many women are actually confident and don’t have a low self-esteem. But it’s not keeping them from being exploited or abused, because fighting with the abuser also doesn’t actually stop the abuse. Penny: Right. Anne: Then you just end up in an argument. Sometimes it ends with you just giving up. In my case, I didn’t give up. So our arguments would last a long time, until basically he would pretend to give up. And then, like literally 10 minutes later, that rally car would be in our driveway. That’s just a metaphor. You know what I mean? When You Can Finally See The Hidden Abuse Anne: So that’s what’s really hard for women too, because I think inside of ourselves, we’re thinking maybe if I would have been quieter, maybe if I hadn’t asked so many questions, maybe if I hadn’t stood up for myself more, what if I had done this or that, would it have changed things? And the answer is no, they’re going to choose to do this no matter what. Penny: Yep, all of us, I think, are taught as young girls to believe in the happily ever after. And most of us take our marriage vows seriously. I did. And so I couldn’t fight, because I was under the dictate of women submit to their husband. So I could try to express my view, but it didn’t carry any weight whatsoever. And I just had to live with it until it reached a point when I realized I can’t be here anymore. This is not who I am. This is not where I belong. The church is asking me to do stuff that I don’t want to do. My husband, I no longer respect him or love him. If standing up for yourself or fighting will get you emotionally hurt. It’s time to step back and say, you know what, I made a mistake, and it’s okay to make mistakes. I didn’t have all the information. I did not know who he was. He didn’t show me who he really was. But now that I know, and I don’t feel comfortable, I feel exploited and have trauma from hidden abuse. It’s time for me to step back, keep my mouth shut. Until I can find a plan, because that’s how you stay safe. You have to stay safe for yourself and your children until you can make a plan. Living Free Workshop Strategies Help You SEE Hidden Abuse Penny: And that means find community, find help, whatever it takes to successfully extract with the least amount of trauma. Anne: Absolutely, and that’s why I wrote The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Because in my experience interviewing all the victims I’ve interviewed over the years, over 300 on the podcast and in person. In our efforts to resist this trauma from hidden abuse, we’ve all tried different things, but it usually falls into two categories. https://youtu.be/8Fd34dtRiRY Either we’re trying to stay safe by keeping our head down, thinking that if we do what he says, it will get better. Or we’re trying to fight it. That’s not right. You can’t do this to me. You need to go to therapy. I’m gonna explain this to you. Those are the two categories that resistance falls under, but it could fall under any form of resistance. But because neither of those things work, the victims need safety strategies. What safety strategies do is they enable you to resist in a way that you’re not doing what he wants, so he can’t exploit you. But you’re also not fighting him, so he can’t fight back, really. And so it’s this interesting middle place. Where it took me so long to figure it out is because I could not figure it out. Eight years post divorce with I’m still experiencing hidden abuse. He’s writing me messages almost every day about our children, medical neglect, all kinds of things going down. I try to go to the court to say, hey, this is what’s happening. Please stop this. He got more custody due to that court case, and things just got worse. And so I prayed and developed these strategies, and they worked. And now I have full custody of my kids. Penny: That’s great. Education Is A Pathway To Seeing Hidden Abuse Anne: So I think having safety strategies is important, but many people don’t understand that. They think, oh, everything would be fine between you and your ex. If you just take him seriously or, and it’s like. That’s not what’s going on here. It’s so much more. Penny: I think it’s important to surround yourself with people who think highly of you and support you. Because the people who say those things again don’t get it. And it’s not helpful to hear. When you, even if you had left sooner, or done something different, you did the best you could. Nobody submits to abuse willingly, nobody. And so those people just don’t get that. And it’s not helpful. Anne: In your healing, I love that getting more education was part of your healing process. Can you talk about how your college education helped you heal? Penny: It helped in many ways. One, I was a waitress, right? I was financially at the bottom of the food chain. I couldn’t work enough hours in one place to make enough money to live in San Francisco at the time. It was expensive. So I worked two or three jobs at a time to make enough money to pay rent and have groceries and stuff. I was much older than the people around me. I was living in a roommate situation with somebody five years younger than me. And all these people had college degrees, and the people I lived with were pursuing a graduate degree. They had what I looked at as cool and interesting jobs. So I said to myself, I need what they have. I need a college degree. And I started going. Going To College Builds Self Esteem Penny: And so it did two things for me. Number one is I vowed never again to depend on a man to support myself. I didn’t like living in a roommate situation, I wanted my own home that nobody could take away from me. Because now this was two homes, one I left home at 16. I ran away from home, so that’s one home lost. And second, I left my marriage and left my home and everything in it to my husband, my ex husband. So that was two homes I lost, and I vowed I would never lose another home. So the college degree, first of all, as I started accruing classes, I could only take two or three classes at a time. Because I worked during the day and went to school at night. I started getting A’s and B’s. Going to college built my self esteem. And I went to school with other adults who were also working during the day and going to school at night. Everybody had a different story. Some people were immigrants. Some people just didn’t have the money to go to school during the day. They were married, and now they’re going back to college. So it boosted my self esteem and my value, my thinking about how smart I was. And number two, I was able to work in finance with a college degree, which is a rewarding career that allowed me to make enough money to own a house. And eventually, I remarried and have a partner who shares expenses with me. But had that not happened, I could maintain this lifestyle on my own. And so that was my goal. Balancing Education & Responsibilities Penny: And it created the college degree, created financial independence and huge self-esteem for me. And since then, got a master’s degree. And so again, graduating for a second time is huge. It’s a huge honor, thrill, and achievement. And I’m proud of that. It took a lot of work. It took a lot of time, sweat, loss of sleep, and loss of money, right? Because college costs money. It wasn’t free. I also paid for it out of my own income, as opposed to taking out loans, which was pretty important nowadays because student loans can really create financial problems in the future. Anne: That’s wonderful. For women who doubt themselves, they’re listening to this podcast and thinking, great, good for you, Penny. You did this. But I’m never going to do that. I have kids, they’re little, or I have this going on. And what type of encouragement might you give them? Penny: I would say yes, I was lucky in that or unlucky. I was unable to bear children. I didn’t have children when I went through this. So that was the good luck, bad luck, right? Bad luck. I couldn’t have children. And also good luck, I didn’t have children. I was able to go to school at night. I didn’t have any responsibilities besides getting up for work the next morning. But I would tell them that to find a way or wait until the kids are older and all in school. And see if they can find an online program that they could take maybe one class at a time. Steps To Improve Your Life After Hidden Abuse Penny: And even if it takes you 10 years to graduate college, if you can do one class at a time. And start accruing credits and grades, A’s, B’s and C’s, and improve the C to an A and B to an A. You’ll start feeling such a boost of self-esteem and pride. And say to yourself, I’m a quarter way through college. I’m a halfway through college. I’m three quarters of the way, or even a certificate. Like maybe some colleges offer like certificates. That’s maybe an 18 month program for, I don’t know, dental hygienist or nurses aid or something like that. Some certificates then allow you to move up the food chain financially and get a respectable position. Maybe in a large organization that provides benefits. So you might have to shelve it now if you have little children dependent on you and can’t afford daycare. But when they get to school, you could do that. And I think you could also go to your community and say, Hey, can we do a trade? Can you watch my kids this night so I could go to class? And I’ll watch your kids that night, so you can go to bingo, right? So there’s always a way to do it. It gets easier when the kids get older, I think. But make it your goal, set your mind on it, and don’t stop until you have that goal. Your certificate, your associate’s degree, or your bachelor’s degree. Anne: And even if it’s not school, like you said, like a radiologist tech or something like that, or just a job, even if it’s not school. Believing In A Better Future Anne: I think the thing that breaks my heart the most is when victims feel like, and for good reason. They can’t do anything about their situation. And it’s a fine line between victim blaming, which we do not do here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and letting victims know that having experienced hidden abuse is not your fault. Nothing about the situation is your fault, and it has nothing to do with you. There are things that you can do that will improve your life. They’re not going to change him. They have nothing to do with him. But you can take tiny steps. I talk about those in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. There are tiny little baby steps that you can take that are free, that are just minute. But I think that’s why some people accidentally victim blame. Because they realize, yeah right, there’s nothing she can do to stop him from harming her or her kids. She can even get divorced, and he can continue to do that. And so how can we help her make her way to safety? And most people don’t have an answer for that. They can’t figure it out, except you need to do this differently. Rather than realizing that some safety strategies are simply because someone’s never heard it before. And they didn’t know it was possible or they didn’t feel it was possible for them. And so the thing I want to let everyone know is that there is a better life possible for you. I don’t know what that looks like. I don’t know how that’s going to come to be. But I want women to believe it’s possible. Processing What I Learned Anne: Because when women believe safety is possible, they believe they can improve their lives somehow. And believe they can heal trauma from hidden abuse and readily apparent abuse. That is when the magic happens, when they start taking steps to improve their lives. And also start taking steps to get themselves out of a situation that they absolutely did not cause and had nothing to do with them in the first place. Penny: Yep, I agree. Anne: Is there anything else you wanted to cover? Penny: I would love to mention to your listeners that I wrote a memoir of surviving both an abusive marriage and abusive childhood. And how I made a recovery, became successful, happy, and rebuilt my life. It’s called Redeemed, a Memoir of a Stolen Childhood, by Penny Lane, and available wherever you buy books. It’s inexpensive, and available at most libraries. So I’d love them to look at that, and I hope to inspire people to make some choices. And to know that I’m nobody special. I’m just a kid from Queens, a runaway from Queens, and that if I could do it, they can do it too. Anne: Yeah, thank you. And to hear her story on the podcast was amazing too. She only told a small portion of it, and hearing her whole story and how far she’s come in, her memoir would be awesome. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom accrued over the years in thinking about this. And it’s so inspiring to talk to victims who have taken something so difficult and made it into something beautiful. Encouragement To Move Forward Penny: Yeah, I think it is possible, and I want to tell your listeners that once you start making the baby steps, to stand up for yourself and change your own life. And to stand up to people who abuse you, oppress you, verbally attack you or denigrate you. You will start feeling a power and strength in your soul that you’ve never felt before. And so I encourage you to start taking those steps. Because it’s the beginning of change. Anne: That’s awesome. Thank you so much for talking with me today, Penny. Penny: You’re very welcome. I wish all your viewers well and happiness and safety

Transcribed - Published: 8 April 2025

Is it possible to heal from emotional abuse and betrayal trauma? Everyday, brave women resist in a variety of ways. Penny shares her story of how she resisted abuse and finally was able to heal from emotional abuse. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today to share your story with other women who have endured the same type of emotional and psychological abuse and begin healing from emotional abuse TODAY. This episode follows Penny’s Story How to Start to Heal From Emotional Abuse – Penny’s Story (THIS EPISODE) Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse – What Gets In Our Way? – Penny’s Take Transcript: How To Heal From Emotional Abuse Anne: I have Penny Lane on today’s episode. She’s a writer, wife, and mother with an insatiable passion for life and books. Originally from Queens, she loves being outdoors. Cycling, hiking, traveling, and connecting to and inspiring people. She has a master’s degree in industrial and organizational psychology from Golden State University. And in her spare time, she helps underserved youth learn to read, apply to college and find jobs. Penny’s Journey Healing From Emotional Abuse And Helping Others Anne: Her book, Redeemed, A Memoir of a Stolen Childhood, she recounts how she was pressured into marriage and endured years of forced confessions, Salem style accusations, secretive disciplinary actions, and excommunication. Penny finally reached her breaking point, and we’re going to talk about her story today. Welcome, Penny. Penny: Thank you for having me. Anne: Why do you feel it’s important for you to speak out about your abuse and write this memoir? Penny: For one, I feel compelled to write it. Because I met a lot of people who have childhood trauma of different sorts and they tend to be ashamed of it. And the opposite is actually true. When we talk about it is when we begin to heal from emotional abuse, find relief, solace and community. I think it is important to write my story to remove some of the stigma involved with abuse or trauma. It will help others heal from emotional abuse as well. Anne: You were coerced into marrying your husband. Can you talk about the abuse that led to that and then also the abuse that you experienced from him? No Opportunity To Heal From Emotional Abuse From Childhood Penny: I was a 16 year old runaway when I met my husband. He was my boss. I worked at an IHOP as a waitress and he quickly saw that I was a very hard worker. He promoted me and then took me out on dates . Because I was a runaway, you know, it was basically living with a family and paying rent. I had no time to heal from the emotional abuse from my upbringing. Pretty soon he said, why don’t you move in with me? Then I was working for him and living with him. I didn’t have any friends. I didn’t have any family because I was a runaway. He started asking me to work more hours. At first I said yes, because he paid me a little bit extra and I made a lot of money waitressing. It was great. But then he wouldn’t take no for an answer. Let’s say I worked three double shifts in a row. Even though I was 16, it’s exhausting to be on your feet in a very fast moving restaurant for 12 hours, 14 hours a day. I tried to say, no. I’m too tired. Get someone else. And he’d say, this wasn’t a question. You need to get to work. Be there in five minutes or I’m coming to pick you up in five minutes. Manipulation and Control Anne: How old was he? Penny: He was six years older than me. He was 23, he left college, and was a restaurant manager for four or five years before I met him. So he was managing a staff of 30 or 40 people in a very busy, high revenue restaurant in a busy location. And he was domineering. A little while after we started dating, he started disappearing and I didn’t know where he was. The girls I worked with said, Oh, he’s got another girlfriend, blah, blah, blah. You know, I didn’t think that was true. Half of you doesn’t believe and half of you does. Religious Pressure Penny: So one time I went along with him to where he was going, because he said he was going to church. I thought, this guy gambles, drinks, curses and I didn’t think he was a very honest guy. And I didn’t think he would possibly be going to church. So I went along with him. And he had indeed gone to church. He went to a very fundamentalist, Bible believing, evangelical type church. This was in the 70’s, and it was quite emotionally wrought. The services were long and drawn out. At the end of the service, there was a call to walk the aisle, to accept Jesus as your personal savior. I wanted nothing to do with that. I thought it was totally weird. Besides, I had just run away from home. I didn’t want to belong to something else. I wanted to be free. Anne: Were you raised religious at all? Penny: No, I was born Catholic and communion at 12, under duress. I didn’t know anything. We didn’t really do anything. else. Forced Conversion Penny: So, long story short, once I went to the church, he would ask me each time he went. He went Wednesdays, Thursdays and twice on Sundays. He would just wait for me at the restaurant and say, okay, we’re going to church. I’d get in the car with him and we’d go. I wasn’t really given a choice . I went two, three weeks of this, going three or four times a week. People started pressuring me to accept Jesus and the story is very compelling. I’m sure you and your readers know this. It’s don’t you want to be loved forever? Yes, of course. Who doesn’t? Don’t you want to have a forever family? Don’t you want to have God’s love? Well, the answer to all of that is yes. I didn’t feel loved. Don’t you want to belong? Of course. I didn’t belong anywhere. Didn’t belong in my family. I didn’t have a family at the moment. So eventually I gave in to the emotional pressure of accepting Jesus and I walked the aisle Questioning Free Will Anne: At the time, did you feel like you were doing it of your own free will or at the time were you like, I don’t really want to do this, but in order to stay in his good graces, I have to do this. It’s hard to identify the effects of spiritual abuse. Can you talk about a bit of your thought process at the time? Penny: At the time I thought I was doing it for my own free will. But look, I was 17. And I was a runaway, working for this man, living with this man. I thought that he loved me. I loved him and this is what he’s doing with his life. In hindsight, I don’t know if it was really free will or if it was emotional manipulation and pressure. Because I knew that if I didn’t do this, I would have to walk away from the whole package. Leave him, my job, my living arrangement. And remember I was 17 and I didn’t know how to negotiate in the world. I didn’t know how to find an apartment or find a new job. Anne: This is also your first experience with religion. Penny: Yes, and he is my second boyfriend. I had a boyfriend while I was going through high school and I broke up with him because he wasn’t ambitious enough. Then I started working at the IHOP and I met this man. Though here’s the interesting thing that happened. It was a bait and switch. Abusive Restrictions Penny: At first it was all lovey dovey and Jesus loves you and you’re part of this forever family. But pretty soon the pastor’s wife and the other women in the church pulled me aside. And said, you can’t dress like that here. And again, I was 17. It was the seventies. We wore blue jeans, platform sandals, high heels, lots of makeup, long shaggy hair, and tight clothes. That’s what we wore, and that’s all I had. And all of a sudden, I couldn’t dress that way anymore. I had to wear skirts and I couldn’t wear makeup or wear less makeup. Anne: Only at church or all the time? Penny: Well, they talked to me about it at church. I really kind of didn’t have any other life. I worked in the restaurant, and I had a uniform. Then I went to church. We didn’t really do anything else. Because previously his life was drinking and going out to eat and drinking. We didn’t do that anymore because he stopped drinking and he stopped smoking. He didn’t pressure me outside of church, but at church I was required. And I kept arguing with the pastor and saying, you guys didn’t tell me this. Like, I don’t want to change. I like this and I liked that. It was a lot. And let’s fast forward three or four months. The pastor said, I want to meet with you guys on Friday night at my house. And so of course I was told I was off work and went to the pastor’s house and the pastor made me wait in the living room. He took my boyfriend into his study and they were gone about 10 minutes, maybe more. When he came out, my boyfriend looked very troubled. Engagement Under Duress Penny: He looked preoccupied. And he said, Penny, will you marry me? We’re living in sin and I can’t live in sin anymore. So will you marry me? He had talked to me about that before. My boyfriend had said to me like three or four visits after I got saved. He said, you know, we’re living in sin, right? I really didn’t know what he meant because I didn’t really have a concept of sin or hell or heaven, even though they talked about it at the church. I wasn’t absorbing it. Like my little 17 year old brain was looking at people and looking at clothes and looking at the guitar player and looking at the piano. I wasn’t able to comprehend that. So it meant nothing to me. And I didn’t feel guilty. Like, I hadn’t been a, what I would call a terrible sinner, right? I know now, because I’ve read the Bible, that like any sin, even jealousy is sin. At the time, I didn’t even think sleeping with your boyfriend was sin. I kind of knew it was wrong, but I didn’t equate it to sin. I didn’t feel any guilt in my heart whatsoever. However, unbeknownst to me, because he didn’t tell me yet, that my boyfriend did. He had been stealing from his boss, he had gambled, he had drank and slept around. He felt very guilty. And so he really absorbed this Christian thing and became all in from the minute he got saved. He immediately quit drinking and quit smoking cold turkey. And that wasn’t the case for me. So then we have this meeting with the pastor. Healing From Emotional Abuse While In Bible College Penny: He comes out and he says, will you marry me? Nobody twisted my arm physically, but again, I knew in that moment that if I didn’t say yes, I was out. I was out of a place to live, a job and out of the church. I thought I loved him at the time and I didn’t see a lot of dangerous signals yet. Again, I’m 17. The big thing was he didn’t beat me. So I assumed I was safe. We got engaged and we started planning a wedding. The church was very, very heavily involved. Very heavily, from the get go. I did end up finding another apartment and moving out. https://youtu.be/JOgZyAWjul8 So I didn’t live with him anymore after that. The church would talk to us about things like birth control. And again, I’m 17, and I’m thinking, Are you kidding me? If we can’t use birth control, I could have a baby a year for the next 20 years. I said, this is ridiculous. I was pushing back and I was pushing back so much that the pastor said to me, you have a rebellious spirit. We need to send you to Bible school. Increasing Pressure & Control Anne: I’ve heard this before. You have a rebellious spirit thing, Penny: So they sent me away to Bible school, literally. And you know what? I didn’t mind going because the pastor was overbearing and my then fiance, became overbearing. Because the way he looked at the world was different than the way I look at the world now. He looked at the world like the pastor said, therefore you need to do it. No free will. No your own relationship with God, even though that’s what they preach. He became like my spiritual director and enforcer. So I had to do whatever the pastor said. Whether I wanted to or not, whether I was ready to or not. And the pastor made me do some really strange things that I did not want to do. But again, under pressure from my boyfriend, here’s an example. The Bible says, children obey your parents. Well, that’s great when you’re living with your parents, maybe, but what happens if your parents beat you? So the pastor made me go back to my stepmother and ask her forgiveness for running away. Now I still had no opportunity to heal from emotional abuse from childhood, and this kind of advice compounded the problem. Anne: Even though you ran away because your stepmother was beating you. Submitting To Husband’s Abuse Penny: Beating me, mean to me, calling me names, withholding food. I was humiliated. And again I knew, if I don’t do this I have to walk away. So I did it. He even said, if she wants, you need to move back home. And I thought, you’ve got to be kidding me. I have been gone a year and a half. I have my own apartment, job and bank account. I’m engaged. Are you kidding? Nope. They weren’t kidding. So luckily, my stepmother said, no, I don’t have to move back that I would disrupt the family. I had a little sister and I’ve hurt my sister by running away. I wasn’t able heal from emotional abuse from childhood while still being abused. So luckily I didn’t have to do it, but that’s the kind of thing I mean about domineering and overbearing and making me do things. Now, as a middle aged woman, I look back and say. Why didn’t that tell me right then and there? Who’s going to be in charge of the relationship? That whatever my husband will say will be right. Not whatever I feel in my heart is right, but I didn’t see that. So I go away to Bible college for a year and it’s a wonderful, wonderful experience. Marriage & Moving Away Penny: During this time, things change at the IHOP. My husband quits and opens up a restaurant. The restaurant ends up failing. Now he’s out of a job and he’s out of money. He gets another job at IHOP, but it’s in Maryland. I’m thrilled to move away from this overbearing pastor. I finished Bible college. We get married after Bible college by that same pastor and immediately move away. Anne: And of course you would have had no idea how fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse. Really quickly, how did you like Bible college? Penny: I loved it, and the reason I loved it is because it was in a beautiful, beautiful setting in upstate New York. I lived in an all girls dorm. I’ve never had friendships with girls my age before because I wasn’t allowed to. Anne: You have this good experience where you’re safe, you’re housed, have food. You’re getting an education, even though it’s something you didn’t expect. Penny: The college is a lot less focused on rules. I mean, there are rules. For instance at Bible colleges, Christian colleges in that time, I don’t know how it is today. You couldn’t wear pants. Even though it was winter, we wore long wool skirts over boots. It gets really cold in upstate. We had long coats. And there’s rules like that, but you can live with that, right? Because of the rest of it. You’re having a great time, studying and you’re going on little field trips. In the summer, you’re a camp counselor at a Christian camp. So it’s fun. It’s fun to be around other girls my age, something I’ve never had before. I graduate, we get married, we move away, I’m a New Yorker so I dress up. I’m back to wearing jeans and high heels and makeup and pretty dresses. I’m myself. Struggles With Abuse In Maryland Penny: We live in Maryland for about three years, and it’s rocky. It’s not an easy marriage because he’s domineering. Everything is his way. I feel lost but I don’t know what to do because the church teaches that divorce is sin. And further they teach that if you deliberately do something that you know is sin, like divorce. You may not even be a Christian at all, which is scary, right? Because if you’re a Christian, which I thought I was at the time, then you’re afraid of hell. You’re afraid of displeasing God. It’s a mind game. They differentiate between accidental sin, like, Oh, I fell into temptation. I committed adultery. That would be accidental sin. Anne: Which is not accidental at all. That is 100 percent on purpose. Your penis just doesn’t fly out of your pants. In this context when there is this dynamic biblical submission often becomes abuse. Penny: Right. But that’s what they teach. And I’m sure you’ve heard that before. Anne: Oh, 100%. And then what? You just trip and then you accidentally have it with, no! It’s misogynistic because it always benefits the man. The man, it’s always accidental. But women, it’s always on purpose. Penny: Right. Religious Manipulation Continues Penny: At some point, We meet up with this guy who runs a Bible study in his home. He’s in Bible college in Maryland. My then husband is an acolyte of this pastor, right? Anne: What does acolyte mean in that context? Penny: He loves this pastor and is a follower of this pastor. He thinks he’s the greatest. This pastor finally graduates from Bible college and he tries to get ordained. And he’s having a very hard time getting ordained. Which should have been a red flag, but it wasn’t. Finally, this pastor finds a sect that will ordain him. He gets assigned to some rural church in the middle of very rural Michigan in a town of 200. A church that’s been around like a hundred years. It’s a handful of old ladies that are just keeping this church alive. The pastor moves away and my husband misses him so much. He arranges a trip to visit this pastor. I think, great, it’s just a one week trip. We drive to Michigan from Maryland. We go to visit and I’m out of my element. I’ve never been in a place so rural. before. The church is weird and it’s small and I’m uncomfortable. I grew up in a city and these people are people that have never left their hometown. They’ve maybe never left the state. They’re just different. Nothing wrong with them, just different from me. So we go back to Maryland. Unexpected News Penny: I go back to work and I’m happy. I’m focused on being a good wife. I don’t think about church. We’re visiting different churches every weekend. All of a sudden the pastor who lives in Michigan, his wife calls and says, Hey Penny, I found you guys an apartment. I said, what? She said, Oh yeah, your husband told me to look for an apartment for you guys, that you guys are moving. He hadn’t asked me and he hadn’t told me. So I’m very upset because I did not want to move. I knew that place would kill me. I knew it was too weird for me I didn’t want to move, but he’s making plans. He said, listen, I’m moving. So you need to get your head around this. I’ve given my notice to my boss. We’re moving in two months and I don’t know what to do. Seeking Advice & Rationalizing Abuse Penny: And I remember talking to his, brother’s wife. So my sister-in-law, and she’s also born again, Christian, but she lives in New Jersey and she’s an independent woman. Back then I would have called myself a weak person, because I had no freedom as a child. I hadn’t healed from my childhood trauma. So healing from emotional abuse seemed daunting. I was scared and timid, and had never lived on my own. My sister-in-law, on the other hand, was a strong woman. She went into her marriage as a strong woman. She was already a Christian when she met my brother-in-law, and she kind of called the shots for her life. When she got married, for example, she said, I don’t want children. In the evangelical church, that’s huge. That’s a big no no. Because that’s your job as a woman, to be a good mother and keep house. So, I trusted her. I called her up and said, what do I do? I don’t remember exactly what she said. But she somehow, in a way that I can’t even remember, talked me into it. By saying, look, he’s your husband. This is part of God’s plan. You think you won’t like it, but God’s plan is always wonderful. And you’re probably going to like it once you get there. So I think you should go. That sort of thing. She didn’t pressure me. She didn’t threaten or ultimatum. There was no hell, nothing like that, but somehow she made it okay. I don’t remember how, probably cause I was traumatized. Struggling In A New Life Penny: So we moved and uprooted everything we knew. And it was very weird. I was very young. We got married when I was 18, three years later, I’m 21. And we moved to this place where everybody is at least 10 years older than me. And they had never been to college. The women never worked outside the home. They got married to their childhood sweethearts at 17, 18 or 19. And now they had a bunch of kids. And the area was very depressed. People didn’t have a lot of money, they literally stretched a giant jar of peanut butter week to week. It was very dependent on the auto industry, so people were needy. People were very committed to the church, because really that’s all they had. I think I’m judging here. I’m making a judgment. Whereas I always looked at things wide open. Like why aren’t we going anywhere on weekends? We lived an hour and a half from Ann Arbor and two hours from Detroit. But nobody ever went to see museums, art or theater. Nothing. I didn’t fit in. Questioning The Church Penny: And I started questioning things again. I didn’t like what was being taught. They were teaching some really weird stuff. The church becomes your authority and you have to ask the church’s permission before you do anything. Like buy a house, go on vacation or to have another baby. I was trying to have a baby at the time. And instead of encouraging me to have a baby. They were having me babysit people’s children while they went away for a few days. Kind of to teach me how hard it was to have a baby. Anne: But like, didn’t they ultimately want you to be a parent? Penny: It’s hard to say now, yes and no. But I had been trying for three years and I was not getting pregnant. Anne: Oh, maybe they’re trying to “make you feel better”. Penny: Or here’s the thing, like in the church, everybody has a gift. And wouldn’t it be convenient if I had the gift of serving and I don’t have my own children to take care of? Because then I could serve the church a lot. I could serve other people in the church. Anne: Be people’s free babysitter. Penny: Right. Struggles With Conformity Penny: Some people I get along with in the church and some people I don’t. And we typically had somebody over for Sunday dinner, or they had us over. We were supposed to fellowship and meet with people and have coffee with them. We weren’t supposed to have relationships with anybody outside the church. So none of us had friends outside the church, unless of course you had family there, which we didn’t. It ended up that you only spent time with people in the church. I was not happy, but I was doing my thing. I was doing all the reading the Bible, going to prayer, fellowshipping with the women, helping out in the church and that kind of stuff. A Wedding Trip Penny: And at some point, a cousin of mine was getting married on the East Coast and I had asked to go. Anne: You asked the church to go? Penny: I asked my husband to go and my husband went and asked the church, went and asked the pastor. Anne: Wow, that’s intense, ok. Penny: Yeah. The pastors came over and met with the pastor and the elder came over and met with me and they said, Penny, why do you want to go to this church on the East Coast? You know, I didn’t tell them the real reason. It’s boring as heck here. But I just said, My cousins, it’s fun, I haven’t been away, haven’t been back. I haven’t seen them and I want to go. Anne: Wait, why do you want to go to this church? You’re just going for like one day, right? For the wedding. You’re not like becoming a member of this other church, right? Penny: Oh, it wasn’t even at a church. It was just a wedding, a cousin’s wedding somewhere on the East coast. Right. Anne: Wow. Why do you want to go to this wedding? Okay. Penny: What they said was you pray about it. If the Lord tells you to go, that’s fine with us. Well, of course I didn’t hear voices and I didn’t hear a yay or nay. And so I decided, well, I didn’t hear no. So let’s go. So we. Packed up the car, we drove, it’s, you know, eight hour drive or something back to the east coast from Michigan. Set Backs In My Ability To Heal From Emotional Abuse Penny: We get there, we’re there for the whole weekend. We stay with cousins or grandmother, I can’t remember. And we had a great time. But as soon as we start driving, getting close to Michigan again, I start feeling this uneasy feeling in my stomach. Like, Oh, I wonder if I’m going to get in trouble for this. Sure enough, there’s a knock on the door. The day after we get back, the pastor and the elder come and they say, Penny, tell us about your trip. I look over at my husband and he’s looking at the floor. I’m like, well, we went, we had a great time. We danced, we socialized and they say, we don’t believe you. Like, what do you mean? You don’t believe me. He said, we don’t believe you had a good time. I said, I had a really good time. And he said, are you sure you didn’t just try to have a good time? I said, no. And they said, we think you’re lying. We think God told you not to go. So we think you’re lying about going and having fun. Excommunication & Husband’s Abuse Penny: So we’re going to excommunicate you. We’re going to discipline you is the word they use. Anne: Did they think you went somewhere else? Penny: No. Anne: So this is just like a huge manipulation thing. They know you actually went. Penny: My husband went with me and my husband’s in the room. Yeah. Anne: And he doesn’t stand up for you? Penny: Nope Anne: Or defend you? Penny: Nope. He defends everyone but me. As a matter of fact, he must’ve called the elders behind my back. To say, We’re back. Anne: He was abusive. We know he was abusive, even though you didn’t know it at the time, right? He’s emotionally abusive, psychologically abusive. What do you think was his abusive reason for calling the elders on you and getting you excommunicated? Penny: I think he thought that it was his job to keep me holy and keep me righteous. Therefore, anything that the pastor thought was wrong? Anne: But you hadn’t done anything wrong. Penny: That’s correct. Anne: He was just trying to put you down. I’m just trying to think of his abusive reason. He goes to this wedding with you and he sees you happy and dancing. He sees, Oh my word, she could notice that I’m abusing her and that she’s so exploited and sad. I don’t want her to recognize when she’s happy. I’m going to try and shut this down. Maybe something like that. We don’t know. I so wish I could have given you The Living Free Workshop at this point in your life, I made it so women could recognize when someone is manipulating them and help them get to safety. Isolation & Depression Further Harm My Ability To Heal From Emotional Abuse Penny: Possible. So the elder says, you’re on discipline, we’re disciplining you. Discipline means you don’t talk to anybody in the church. You don’t call them, say hi to them on the street, meet with them or come to services. You’re excommunicated. You stay home or you stay away from anybody in the church and we’ll get back to you when we think you’re repentant. So here I am, we have a tiny, tiny apartment, it’s a studio apartment and I’m an outgoing person. I’m an extrovert, and I’m left on my own. My husband leaves for work in the morning, and you can clean the whole apartment in half an hour. I wash the dishes, do the laundry, and do the shopping. I mow the lawn, and do all the stuff. Luckily I love to read. So I go to the library, but I’m heartbroken. I’m crestfallen and depressed. I stay in bed most of the day. Because this has happened to me and I don’t know how it happened. I didn’t lie, I didn’t know how to change it. So I’m powerless and stuck. Again, I don’t even think of leaving at this point, right? Because now I’m three years into a marriage, into the church. I’m a good Christian and believe what I’m taught. I believe the Bible but yet, God’s not helping me Anne: And you’re exactly where they want you. Penny: I’m depressed and I’m not eating and I’m not sleeping. Again I call my sister-in-law or my sister-in-law calls me. She must have heard about it and she calls me. And she says, Oh Penny, you know, we’re all in sin one way or the other we’re all in sin. Confession & Return Penny: So just confess to the elders that you lied and get it over with and they’ll take you back. It’ll be fine And so I say to myself, Oh my God, I don’t know why I didn’t think of that. That’s what I’m going to do. So I do it. I tell my husband, I’m ready to confess. He goes and tells the elders. A couple of days later, the elders come back to me and they come to the house and they’re all smiling with these fake smiles. Cause there’s a verse in the Bible that says that there’s more joy in heaven over the one son who comes back to the faith and the hundred non believers that convert. I don’t remember the exact verse, but it’s something like that. So they say, we forgive you. And we’re so happy. This is midweek so stay away from the church . And We’ll invite you back to the church at the Sunday service. Continued Abuse From Public Humiliation Harms My Ability To Heal Penny: And what I didn’t know, which they didn’t tell me at the time, was that when they invited me back to the Sunday service, I basically sat outside until the elders brought me in. And then they said, congregation, we have something to tell you. We have something to rejoice in. Our sister Penny has repented of her sins and she’s been in sin for a month. Thank God, praise God. She’s repented. She’s come back to us and the Bible tells us to welcome her with open arms. Well, a couple of people in the church stood up, a husband and wife team that were kind of newish to the church. They’d been there maybe a couple months. They got up and they said, this is wrong. And they got up and they walked out. Anne: Were they like, we don’t want her back? So that’s why they left? Penny: No, I think that they were upset that this happened to me. Anne: Oh, okay. So they were on your side. Good for them. Penny: Everybody else in the church was dead silent. Nobody said a word and everybody’s staring at me. I had no idea this was going to happen. In those days we sat in a circle, so a great big circle. Imagine we were in like a a ballroom. We were renting an old, old, old hotel in this town, a big giant ballroom. We’re all sitting in a circle all facing each other and everybody’s staring at me aghast. He doesn’t tell them what the sin is. Psychological Abuse Penny: So you can imagine people are thinking, was it adultery? Was it child abuse? Does she need to heal from emotional abuse? Was it theft? Is she a gambler? Is she a drinker? Does she take drugs? Nobody knew, right? Anne: I just want to pause here for a second to point out why this is happening, not necessarily to you in particular, but just in general. It’s psychological abuse to try and force someone to think that something happened when it didn’t. And then they also want to ruin someone’s reputation. It’s so hard to heal from emotional abuse when you can’t get the right help and are still being abused. So they could be like, okay, the sin was you jaywalked, but we’re not going to tell people that . And we’re just going to leave it up to everybody’s imagination in order to ruin your reputation and harm you. Wow. Penny: it was really horrific. When You Are Living In Fear You Can’t Heal From Emotional Abuse Penny: And then here’s the other thing that happens to me as a person. On the inside because I didn’t do anything wrong to begin with, and they told me I did. From that moment on I walked on eggshells every minute of every day. I could never relax because I never knew if I was doing something wrong. And I didn’t know if I was lying because if somebody said to me, how are you doing today, Penny? But really I was nervous in my stomach, but I didn’t want to say that. Then I would run back to that person and say, I’m okay, but I’m nervous in my stomach and I didn’t want to lie to you. I was constantly going back to everybody and correcting myself. I looked like a fool. Now people don’t know if they trust me. Anne: I want to point out, this is what an abuser would do to undermine your confidence to exploit you more or control you more. It is a purposeful tactic that someone would do to stop them from healing from emotional abuse. Penny: I did not know that at the time. Anne: Right. I’m just pointing that out to my listeners. So that if they’re like, Oh, emotional abuse is happening to me right now it’s impossible to heal. It is a purposeful thing to undermine someone’s confidence. Penny: this went on for another couple of years, living in fear and turmoil and insecurity. Something else happened and I was accused and disciplined again, for a very long time, for a year. I was really broken as a person, suicidal, very broken. And when it came time, the elders decided enough. Heal From Emotional Abuse By Realizing Independence Penny: They said, you either leave or you confess. I decided to leave and that meant leaving the church. I left my husband and I left the state. Clearly I was a completely broken person. I was 31 by that point. And I basically had to start life all over again. Meaning I didn’t have a job, money, degree or career. I was scared of everybody, I thought my life was over at 31. Nobody would love me and I would just be a street beggar and maybe a waitress. But that’s not what happened. Because once I was free I became a full human being . It’s been a powerful, powerful thing. Once I began to heal from emotional abuse, I became a highly successful and highly paid salesperson. I have a master’s degree and undergrad degree, am highly respected and retired early. I adopted a son, have a wonderful husband and home. It took a lot of work and it’s still work. Anne: If you could go back to that 17 year old that you were and talk to yourself when you’re working at that IHOP. What would you say to yourself? When you weren’t yet asking the question, “am I being spiritually abused?” Penny: I would say don’t do it. There are many people in the world. He’s not the only one. This isn’t your only job in the world. There’s many jobs in the world. You don’t need them. You’re stronger, you’re wiser, you’re smarter. You can do it on your own. Healing From Emotional Abuse And Getting Your Life Back Anne: That’s what I want to share with our listeners is I don’t know where your journey to psychological and emotional safety will take you. It’s so different for every single person. But the important thing is that you are brave and you are strong and you can do it. The abusers want you to think that you can’t heal from emotional abuse. They want you to think you’re dependent on them. They want you to think that you’re not smart or incapable. And that is not true. You are brave and strong. You are capable. When you heal from emotional abuse, you can do anything. So Penny, thank you for your story, and wish you well as you heal after emotional abuse. I appreciate you coming on today’s episode. Penny: It’s my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Published: 1 April 2025

Did you know that it’s considered child abuse to expose a child to inappropriate media? Here’s how to protect children from online threats. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse quiz. When A Child Is Exposed To Online Dangers A child’s accidental exposure to online inappropriate material. It traumatizes children who view it. They need immediate trauma-focused care to process and heal. Trauma from exposure can affect children in many ways. Often, traumatized children experience: Sleep disturbances including nightmares and insomnia Mood swings and behavioral issues Somberness, sadness Preoccupation with sexuality Fear and anxiety about safety You Can Set Boundaries To Protect Young Kids From Online Threats Courageous women who face the devastation of betrayal trauma, emotional abuse, and betrayal can find help, healing, and support as they set and maintain boundaries that keep their children safe from exploitative media. An example of a boundary that would protect women and children from the chaotic harm and abuse of exploitative media use. Is asking the user to relocate to a different living space. So that his material cannot harm anyone in the family. You Can Be Proactive In Teaching Children About Online Harms Often, children have a trauma response. All children exposed to it are abuse victims. They should be treated with compassion, respect, and the intentional care that any trauma victim would receive for abuse. In addition to trauma-focused care, women may find resources helpful in helping their children understand the truths about it. The book Good Pictures, Bad Pictures may help teach children about it. Our online support group for betrayal trauma offer support, validation, and community to women all over the world who seek safety and healing if their husband’s exploitative content use betrayed them. Attend a session today. Transcript: How To Protect Children From Online Abuse Anne: I have a good friend on today’s episode. Her name is Kristen Jenson, and she’s the founder of Defend Young Minds, an organization that helps protect young kids from online threats by teaching them strategies and skills to use as they go about their lives. Welcome, Kristen. Kristen: Thanks, Anne. It’s great to be here with you. Anne: My kids love your books. We have them all around our house. My youngest, loves non-fiction. and so she reads them frequently. So thank you so much. Can you just start off talking about your books? Kristen: Good Pictures, Bad Pictures and Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, Junior, A Simple Plan to Defend Young Minds. They’re both number one bestsellers on Amazon and have been so for years. And you know, speaking of number one bestsellers, I know your book has been a number one bestseller, Trauma Mama Husband Drama. I love it. I mean, the illustrations are awesome. I’ve read many books that try to rhyme, and some work better than others, and yours works great. I love how you approach that. It helps it not to be so heavy, and yet you’re talking about serious topics. Women get trapped in this place where her husband looks great on the outside, but there’s a lot of trauma going on. And then I love how in the back, you’ve got lots of charts that help explain a lot of the issues. Anne: It’s frequently a bestseller in the category of teen and young adult nonfiction on abuse, which is interesting to me because I did not expect my book to be for kids. Many people have said, my children love this book. That surprised me. The Importance Of Talking About Exploitative Media Anne: I think the thing that probably surprises both of us is how ready and capable children are to learn about these difficult topics. Kristen: Kids love these books because they respond to the truth. When a book clearly shines light, I think kids just gobble it up. It’s a relief to them when you’re willing to open up and talk about it or about the effects of expolitative media in a relationship, marriage, and family. Kids are more resilient than we give them credit for, and it’s great that they have these books to help them. Anne: Can you talk about why some parents might think that not talking about it may be better for their kids? Kristen: Yeah, I totally get that it may be intuitive, because we want to protect our children from online danger and keep them innocent. Some parents think, what if I tell my kid about it, and then they get curious and look for it. Well, we owe it to our children to teach them how to thrive in this day and age. The goal is not innocence, the goal is teaching a child to make wise decisions. We teach them about all the other dangers and have drills, but somehow we think that this is different. It’s not, it’s a danger, just like every other danger. You need a proactive, intentional approach where you are working to create digital defense skills. When kids know what it is, why it’s harmful, and what to do when they see it, then and only then do they have a real choice to reject it. And they have the beginning of a defense, which of course in the end, it’s up to them. Real-Life Stories Of Preparedness Kristen: And I have so many stories of kids. One boy, like seven years old, was just going to ride bikes in the cul de sac. But they went inside and his teenage brothers said, hey, come over. We want to show you something and showed these little boys exploitative media. His mother had talked to him about it. He knew what to do and went home. He told her about it. She was able to debrief him and help him process and neutralize those memories. And she told me, our plan actually worked beautifully. She could have never predicted that that situation would happen. But she was so glad her son was prepared, and he knew what to do. He knew to tell her, she was a safe person to talk to about this. https://youtu.be/fvbr2Fx4fl4 Anne: She helped protect children from online abuse. Yeah, because they have so many questions, they’ll hear things at school. One of my sons, when he was in fifth grade, we did the maturation clinic, and I went with him. But I had already talked to him about everything. We’d already gone over everything at home. And he told me that at lunch, some kids talked about the maturation clinic, and they were giving the wrong information. And speaking of innocence. I just had two researchers on the podcast. They’re PhD level researchers, and they interviewed a bunch of women who have been through betrayal trauma. And one of the things they found was that women felt like their “innocence” had harmed them. They wish they had abuse education. They wish they had had abuse education. Protect Children From Online Abuse: Objectification & It’s Harm Anne: They wish they had more education about healthy intimacy. In general they were religious. It was like, don’t have it until you’re married. Then once you’re married, your husband will show you what to do. You don’t need education about it. Many of them had experienced abuse from their husbands, their husbands were always on their phone looking at it, and they didn’t even know it was abuse. All of them had experienced coercion, they didn’t know that was coercion. So the knowledge of abuse is that these are the elements of healthy relationships. What I love about your materials is that they teach these healthy concepts without saying the word, to prepare children for when that conversation will happen in the future. They help protect children from online abuse, and its effects. Kristen: In the book for kids ages seven and older, talks about objectification, how it objectifies people’s bodies. And instead of seeing them as a whole person, who deserves love and respect, they’re just seen as a body or some sort of compilation of body parts. When you objectify a person, it’s easier to hurt them. And that’s another harm of online exploitation, because it shows people being mean and acting like that’s fun. And so is hurting people a good way to treat somebody? No, so that just starts to teach that basics of healthy relationships are respectful and kind, and involves the whole person and trust. Whereas it teaches the exact opposite, it involves violence, disrespect, degradation, and objectification. Online Exploitation Harms Mental Health Kristen: And you can’t tell me that watching it for years and years. And then going into a marriage will not affect your template, your expectations and your behavior. There are quite a few studies that show that is true. People who look at it have a harder time having a healthy relationship. They also give their partner betrayal trauma from infidelity. So turns out there are quite a few studies that show the mental health harms of it. And how it is associated with a wide range of harming mental health, not only in children and adolescents, but also in adults. I would say there are more studies with adults, obviously, it is associated with greater loneliness. This content predicts depression and anxiety. There was a study that showed that both general and aggressive use alone were associated with less relationship satisfaction and relationship stability. Even when accounting for a range of potentially confounding variables. One in Germany was with over 1500 German speaking users, ages 18 to 76. It showed that users with problematic content use scored significantly higher in many problems, obsessive compulsive behavior, depression, anxiety, hostility, phobic anxiety, paranoid ideation. Also, they scored significantly worse in every measure of psychological functioning considered, including again, OCD, interpersonal sensitivity, depression, anxiety, hostility, phobic anxiety, paranoid ideation, and psychoticism. They also found that these results were elevated to a clinically relevant degree compared with the general population. The intensity of these problems was categorized as severe psychological distress. I could go on and on, but basically using it creates poor mental health outcomes. Kids should know that it does harm their mental health. There are so many studies that show this is true. There is a need protect children from online abuse to prevent long term damage. Dopamine & Gender Differences In Online Explotative Exposure Kristen: The other problem with kids using it: there’s so many problems, but one of them is the dopamine. It sets your dopamine level so high that normal things that kids used to really enjoy, like exploring the backyard and looking for bugs you know, are just boring. So it’s messing with the dopamine in the brain. What would those kids learn and develop? So there’s lost opportunity for normal development. It appears to delay normal social development and cognitive development. These are all things that parents need to be concerned about when it comes to handing a device to a child. Parents need to know how protect children from online abuse. Anne: As you’ve been working with parents over the years and how can we protect children online, have you seen any gender differences between the information boys need and girls need? Kristen: Yes, I have. Girls often get into it differently than boys, but they often end up in the same place. You know, girls are interested in relationships. So they like stories, and they will be pulled in through erotic literature, through fan fiction, even through anime and cartoons. Some women found out about what their husband was looking at online and wondered, “Is my husband gay?” They’ll be pulled in that way, but often end up with the videos. So I’ve been writing a book for girls to teach them the harms of it, not only themselves as they watch it. But it harms them if they get into a relationship with somebody who is also watching it. There’s quite a bit of research now that shows that if both partners watch it together, they have like threefold risk for infidelity, which is harmful to a relationship. We Need To Protect Kids From Online Threats Anne: Well, and we view it as infidelity at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, so they’re already… Kristen: Yes, Anne:…being unfaithful. If they are, they’re both unfaithful. Kristen: Absolutely. We want to help girls understand that there are other ways to get into it It’s not just the bad pictures you see. It’s also the bad pictures that can be created in your mind through books and stories. And even explicit cartoons are dangerous and addicting. This a way to protect children from online danger. Anne: Well, Kristen, your work is incredible. My kids love it. I’m so grateful it organizes things in a way that is easy to approach the topic. So I’m like, win, win, win. Go to defendyoungminds.com to learn more about her resources. Thank you so much, Kristen, for spending time talking with me today. Kristen: Thank you, Anne it’s been a pleasure.

Published: 18 March 2025

If you’re struggling to deal with an addict husband, we get it. We’re here for you. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are for women who have done everything they can to fix their marriage, but their addict husband is still causing trouble. To see if your husband’s addiction causes him to be emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz. And listen (above) to Evangeline’s story to see if you relate, or read the transcript below. You’re not alone. Transcript: How To Deal With An Addict Husband Anne: A member of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community is on today’s episode. We’re calling her Evangeline. Welcome, Evangeline. Evangeline: Thank you for talking with me, Anne. I’m so grateful for the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community. Anne: Let’s start at the beginning. Can you talk about how you felt about your husband at first? Evangeline: Ours was like a real romance. I thought I married the man of my dreams, that I earned and deserved this as a good Christian girl and woman. I was in love, head over heels in love. He checked all the boxes. He had faith, honored and respected me, and did many thoughtful gestures. Anne: Back then, did you notice anything a bit off, and how did you define that? Evangeline: There were moments. I suspected he may be an addict early on and thought he acted out in his “addiction” in isolated moments. Like, just a few times a year. He’d apologize and say it wouldn’t happen again. I never told anyone because it was infrequent. I just thought he’s growing up, he’s figuring it out. As long as it doesn’t get any worse, I’m going to be okay. We’re going to be okay. How To Deal With An Addict Husband When He Lies Evangeline: He introduced pornography into our marriage. I said, no, I didn’t like that. I became uncomfortable. He’s telling me he’s watching pornography to learn how to be a better husband. How to maybe be a better lover or to be more educated. Anne: A flat out lie. He’s constantly on his phone, watching it. Evangeline: Totally. It didn’t help him be a “better” anything. I found infidelity 15 to 20 years into my marriage. The reality was, I can’t tell you how many incidences. I lived in fear. There is no way to deal with this when your husband says he’s an addict. The Reality of My Husband’s Addiction Evangeline: And really why would I know how to deal with an addicted husband? My parents raised me sheltered and uninformed. And he seemed to love and adore me. I felt so blessed at the time. This was a godsend, an answer to prayer. Anne: It makes total sense. That is exactly what you would think, especially under the circumstances. You think he’s a man of God, because that’s what he has told you. Evangeline: The first 10 years of our marriage were a blur. Our two youngest out of three kids had severe medical issues. Those years were just survival. I took women’s Bible study and women’s leadership. The Sacrifices You Make When Your Husband is An Addict I did bookkeeping for multiple churches and nonprofits. He also played a part in my business. He did taxes for some of the customers I had. My business was thriving. About 13 or so years into our marriage, we decided to move across the country. He wanted us to go down to one income, one job. So I sold my business to another accountant in our city. And I became a full time stay at home mom for the next 16 years. I didn’t know what would happen when I gave up my financial security and ability to take care of myself. I needed safety, because my husband was an addict, and that was an unsafe situation. The Christian evangelical community promoted and encouraged us to be stay-at-home moms. I didn’t realize that as a woman, I was putting myself at risk for the situation I’m now currently in. He Wanted Power & Control Evangeline: I can see it now that he wanted more power and control. If he’s an addict, you can start seeing the patterns. Like, when I started going back to school, he was not supportive. He would call me in the middle of my day, interrupt me when he’d never done that before. This behavior felt like more that just being an “addict husband.” I would keep my study time to only the hours my kids were at school. I could only study when I had no other duties. He Didn’t Want Me To Improve Myself Evangeline: It was obvious he didn’t want me to improve myself, or show interest in any of my hobbies. And that was shocking. His addiction meant he only wanted me the version of myself he married at 22. He didn’t allow me to grow and change. I wasn’t allowed to be an educated and degreed adult. I had to be the high school graduate. He simply wanted my attention only on him. Anne: One part of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches that we all have special talents and interests. But sometimes, when a husband struggles with addiction, he makes us think our life should only be about him. This workshop helps us realize that we were created to live our own life. My Addict Husband Got In the Way Of My Career Evangeline: Yes, only certain activities met his approval, such as my kid’s medical issues. I could do ministry and women’s ministry through my churches. And I’m learning that my husband is an “addict”. But the more my information and knowledge about abuse increased, the more his behavior became destructive and worse. Realizing What My Husband Being An Addict Meant To Me Evangeline: I think back now, and I’m like, my life was out of control. My personal life was in mayhem. In fact, the only place stable was work. My spouse was an addict to an extreme level. As an “addict”, he was also acting out with other women. Sometimes I think we just go through a series of betrayals that are so deep and so intense. It’s almost like when he does it again, you’re in such a state of shock. The reverberations from each of these betrayals almost paralyze you. It’s like you couldn’t even react anymore. My hypervigilance became extreme. I was waiting for the next one to happen. And at some point, I’m became numb. I developed severe agoraphobia. When An Addict Gets Caught At Work Evangeline: We moved four times in 10 years. I lived in four States in 10 years. These were all moves related to him changing jobs. There were multiple incidents with his employers or with a fellow employee. I would never get the whole story or the whole truth. But I knew enough to know that he was misbehaving and acting inappropriately, unprofessionally with subordinates. When he started the last job he had when I was with him, he had already started a relationship with a woman at work before the rest of the family moved. But I didn’t know that. All those years, I was fighting for my marriage. Even though it was a complete disaster, full betrayal, full addiction. It was so exhausting constantly having to manage an addicted husband. I didn’t realize what his addiction was doing to me. I just thought, “He needs help to overcome his addiction. And I’d still be there for him once he figured it out.” That’s truly what I thought. I said to him, “I’ll give you the freedom to figure out your problems, get help, and do what you got to do.” Anne: You’re still in this, like, willing to help your husband with his “addiction”? Manipulation & Prolonged Abuse Because many times a husband will say, “I’m an addict” to manipulate us to “help” him. But it’s just to continue to exploit us. Evangeline: Yes! He used it to continue to exploit me for sure! I said, “You go get help”. Your addiction is ruining your career. I do not feel safe, my husband is addicted he needs to get into a 12 Step Program. Also, you need therapy. So in addiction therapy, the therapist had us create one shared password for all our emails and accounts. We set up accountability and transparency. So I don’t know how he did it, but he still watched explicit material, and had conversations with other women. He would just “slip up” here and there until life became just one constant slip up. I didn’t realize what was actually happening. The Myth Of Keeping Your Addict Husband Satisfied Evangeline: I’d never spoken to anyone about my marriage. I remember telling one woman at church that I had become fairly good friends about with what I’d found on his phone. He had inappropriate texts with a woman at work. I truly believed the teaching that if you keep your husband busy and satisfied, filling his mind with thoughts of you, it would help him deal with his addiction. She told me that if I satisfy him, he wouldn’t need to seek out explicit material or other women. When I decide to do something, I’ll go all in. And so I followed that advice, and it didn’t work. It failed. He cheated, betrayed, and continued in his addiction. Isolation, Fear & Discovering What His “Addiction” Really Meant Evangeline: I took a leave of absence. I began to search for any resource I could find, betrayal trauma, addiction and narcissistic personality disorder. It wasn’t until I started listening to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. And I heard other women share their stories of what it was like to be married to an addict. I suddenly heard something I identified with. And of course, at the beginning, I didn’t understand that you can’t take this information to an addict husband. But I made that mistake of taking him the information I was learning. Misunderstanding Addiction Evangeline: And I truly thought if I just approached him the right way. If I had the magic way to say it, he will understand and see the light. I know he’s intelligent, smart and capable. I must be failing. I’m not saying it right. Let me help my addict husband by trying it all in different ways. He’s bound to get it eventually. Then he began turning what I knew against me. He started saying that I was the abuser and that I was the one causing problems. The scariest part of my story with him happened when we moved to this state for his job. This was the first time he worked at a hospital for behavioral health. He was the CFO at the hospital. Even though he has no mental health education of any kind. Maybe Psychology 101 that everyone has to take in college. He’s an executive for the facility. But he’s coming home and telling me, you wouldn’t believe the wonders that we see in patients receiving shock treatment. It’s actually still a valid treatment practiced today, and you wouldn’t believe how these people are emotionally stable due to shock treatment. And he’s like, you should look into it. Anne: For you? Evangeline: Yes, he scared me so bad. At that point, I struggled with severe agoraphobia. I was terrified, knew no one in a strange city. I had no friends, no family, and no one to call and talk to. Feeling Complete Isolation While Dealing With My Addict Husband Evangeline: I was completely isolated and terrified. If I can’t trust people I live with, who are supposed to be for me. And the people who are supposed to love me and have my back? How could I possibly trust a stranger? I knew I could trust my coworkers in my child advocacy work, but beyond that, I had no one personally. And I was terrified. I was terrified he would commit me against my will and that I would have a shock treatment done to me against my will. And you lose memory, and looking back now that I know that’s one of the effects of that treatment. I understand why he wanted it so bad. We had reached a point in our marriage where I had learned so many truths. There was no return from that knowledge. Anne: Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. Evangeline: You can’t unsee it. And I didn’t realize then how desperate he was for me to not know the truth of him. I know it now. Anne: So you become a child advocate, recognize what abuse is, but still don’t recognize that he’s abusive. Then you recognize that he’s abusive, and you think, oh, if I can just explain it well enough. By the way, this is totally normal. You’re completely normal. I went through the same thing, trying to help my “addicted husband.” I think every abuse victim does. Because they’ve manipulated us to think they’ve like given us that impression. They’ve gaslit us to think that. So then, you go through that phase, which we’ve all been through, of okay. If I can explain it to him, or if I can get him to the right therapist or something, then he’ll get help. Therapist Disappointment Evangeline: He went to a therapist, and I went to one appointment not to do a couples therapy. But to say, hey, I want to hear from the therapist that you are telling the therapist everything. Anne: What type of therapist? Is it an addiction specialist? Evangeline: They do therapy for addiction. Just a traditional therapist with addiction training. I told both therapists, “I’m not safe, I’m not safe, and I’m not sure what he’s doing next. That’s going to destroy me and the kids, our lives. I’m terrified.” Did you know that neither of those therapists had one thing to offer me? Not one thing. They didn’t follow up, and they didn’t have anything to give me. Anne: That is unfortunately most women’s experience when they work with an addiction specialist for their spouse. It’s so disappointing, invalidating, and frankly dangerous. And that’s why I started our group sessions and our individual sessions. And also why I wrote the Living Free Workshop. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop helps women determine their adddict husband’s true character, and then teaches safety strategies. So basically, it helps women know exactly what’s going on, and then also what’s going to happen next. Because I found most therapists, therapy in general, especially couple therapy or therapy for troubled marriages. They just look at you and blink. They might say the word boundaries, but they don’t know how to actually teach boundaries, because “communication” is always the solution when it comes to therapy. And “communication” doesn’t help with an addicted husband. So I am so sorry. That’s so discouraging. So they just like stared at you and just like blinked at you. False Hope In Addiction Therapy Evangeline: That’s what they did. They had nothing to offer, no suggestions for a safety plan, and didn’t look to him and say, we need to stop now. At this point, we weren’t addressing the misconduct. We were addressing his behavior with addiction. It was out of control and dangerous. Anne: Though it felt terrible to you at the time, and they did not do the right thing, there is a silver lining there, and it’s that they didn’t say, oh, I can help both of you. And this is how we’re going to do this. And the reason why that’s a silver lining is that false hope. Sometimes we call it hopium around here that, like, oh, I will treat your husband and make him safe for you, is super dangerous. We don’t recommend any men’s programs, because we’ve seen them use that to continue to manipulate and control, and they weaponize all the therapy language. It almost makes them like super abusers, because they know how to speak. And it gets scary quickly. When they’ve become these like almost mutants of themselves through learning the therapy language. Did you experience that part, where they’re good at using the therapy language as weapons against us? Evangeline: When we were separated for a year, I felt it a little. I asked for a space where we could talk and actually work things out. Whenever we talked alone, the conversations just went in circles. We kept jumping from one thing to another without solving anything. I still cared about my marriage and wanted it to work, even though we had been apart for a year. I requested, can we find a therapist where we will have space to have conversations? My Addict Husband Was 99 Percent Done Evangeline: So we’re both held accountable for how we participate in that conversation, not couples counseling. this point, even though I still desire to keep my marriage and future, he said I’m 99 percent done. You know what that did to me? It took me a couple of appointments before I finally understood that statement. I’m 99 percent done. There was that 1 percent chance, and that dangle. I was the one dangling. He was exercising that power of dangling me, even though he was done. He was already living with a woman for a couple of years. I just didn’t know it. My kids knew it, he knew it. And no one told me. I was the only one. But he kept saying, I’m just 99 percent done. So I’m thinking, okay, he’s not going to the top. The therapist knew he’d thrown in the towel before I did. https://youtu.be/p-PCyiQQrp0 Anne: It’s so hard. And I’m guessing the therapist didn’t mention this is abuse either. Evangeline: No. Anne: Yeah. Evangeline: And that therapist actually with the credentials is trained and should have known it, should have seen. Anne: Generally, therapists don’t have abuse training. It’s a weird, strange situation. Because people think therapists should have abuse training, but in general, they don’t have a lot of it. They don’t assess abuse. When they think he is abusive. And I am the best therapist, and I can help him with his abuse. That scares me actually even more than the person who doesn’t recognize it. Because if the guy didn’t want to be abusive, he knows what he’s doing, and he would have stopped his abuse already. He Knows He’s Lying & Therapy Won’t Help Anne: Therapy isn’t going to help him. It makes me nervous. Evangeline: I’ve since learned therapy doesn’t fix the abuser. Anne: For those of us, me included, who thought, he just needs to know what’s going on, where I went wrong there. And I described this well and why this happens in the BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. He knew what he was doing. So he knew he was lying and what happened. And so if I was like, ah, this is what’s happening. He already knew it wouldn’t change him. Because if knowing would have changed him, he already knew, it would have changed him already. It was the opposite. He knew exactly what he was doing, and he was doing it on purpose. Evangeline: It is hard. It’s really hard to come to terms with the fact that the person you committed to your life, that you love, honor, and cherish. And you bring such a beautiful, valuable side to the relationship to the table. It’s so hard to imagine they’re doing these destructive things on purpose. And they actually don’t care how much you’re harmed, how deep you’re hurt, how devastated you are. And then you get blamed for your response for being emotional or angry. For being any of the valid emotions you’re supposed to experience. When you face betrayal, shock, hurt, devastation, and your life imploding, you’re going to have those emotions. Those are valid, and they’re appropriate. For those to get judged, I mean, you’re emotionally unstable, you’ve got the problem. But their decades of behavior suddenly is not even the issue or not even the focus. Corporate Retreat Revelation Evangeline: You know, Anne, there’s one more part of my story. Before I became an advocate, we were actually on a corporate retreat for his work. So all the wives did a spa day together, and we were having healthy girl talk, nothing inappropriate. It was spending this time with these other women who were not from the evangelical community in which I was raised. They were just average, ordinary, great women. We were talking about marriage and intimacy. And I had made a comment that we have intimacy, and it’s healthy in my marriage. It’s great, in fact, if he feels the need to be intimate, even if I’m passed out and asleep, I was okay if he needed to be intimate. And the reaction from these women. Anne: You were sharing what you thought was an example of your healthy intimacy, thinking they would be like, oh, that is so healthy that we can be intimate. Evangeline: Yes. Anne: …with you when you’re passed out. Evangeline: I was so ingrained with my only role and goal in life, which is to please him to whatever self sacrifice I need to do. My purpose is to please him. Even if that means using my body when I am asleep and on sleeping medication, I cannot verbally consent or even have any memory or knowledge it happened afterward. I thought that was my duty as his wife to provide that for him, in order to help my husband with his addiction. No husband should ever do that ever. You have to consent. I’m like, I consented. I and they told me, no, that’s not consent. You have to be conscious in the moment, consent in the moment. And so I started having conversations with my spouse about it. How To Deal With An Addict: Realizing the Extent of The Abuse Evangeline: And it turned out he’d been doing this way longer than I knew, and it was something he continued to do. Even after that conversation, he did it for years. Anne: I’m so sorry. Evangeline: You know, it was shocking when I found out. The times I didn’t know, it’s like if he did it and then told me, and I knew it was somehow a little better and okay. But finding out it had been going on for years. And then once this conversation started happening with him, this person inside out. You know, when they start lying, you can tell when they are not truthful with you. And then it was having all the subsequent conversations. And in each of those, his lies grew more. The retellings, the details would change in his retellings. And then having these conversations with him is when I would begin to get flooded with flashbacks. Where I would have some conscious recall, and I didn’t know what to do with that. I had nowhere to turn. I was alone in that. And I still stayed married and had a very active, intimate life with him for many more years to come, like eight more years. It was hard to reconcile. Anne: Absolutely. Evangeline: When you have the good times, and then you have the falling apart times, and then you have the shock and awe times of like, is he really? Is he that bad? Is he that vile? No, I have to be misunderstanding. That had to have been an exception. That can’t have been the norm. Again, it’s just a series of traumas that never seemed to end. The Final Separation & Divorce After Years Of Supporting His Addiction Recovery Evangeline: So when I finally separate from him, I finally realize my marriage is over. That I can’t deal with his addiction anymore. I need a divorce. I had at that point already done betrayal trauma work. It was a 17 month divorce with a full trial. I then turned around, and the week I turned 50, he filed the appeal. So I had another 17 month long court. I just won the appeal, but he’s still challenging my win. I actually got a text two weeks ago on the 4th of this month, communicating that exact thought. He said, just be reasonable the way you saw me once upon a time. He wants me to be that 22 year old bride who thinks he is the most amazing person ever. Who can do no wrong. And unless I view him like that, I’m not reasonable. Because I’m asking for something that the law legally entitles me to ask for. From Focus on the Family, “Help your husband be the hero to your children.” I chose to do it with my kids, and even though he was working late or I didn’t know where he was. I told them, “Oh, your dad wishes he was here. He’ll be here as soon as he can. You have a great dad who loves you.” I said those things, and I didn’t just do it once. I kept saying it for years. Realizing All The Abuse Anne: And you did it because you thought it would help. It was actually an act of resistance on your part. So I want you to, like, hold your head up high. Because you genuinely thought that it would improve things. It wasn’t because you’re stupid. It wasn’t because… Evangeline: No. Anne: …your brain doesn’t work. It’s not because you’re emotionally unstable. It’s an act of resistance. It was the only thing you could think of at the time to keep yourself safe. And the sad thing is they’re preying on women’s vulnerabilities. They should educate women about abuse to “focus on the family”, and strengthen a family. Evangeline: Yes, Anne, I’m 51. It took me decades to understand all the abuse I experienced in my marriage. No one teaches this in most evangelical groups. Schools don’t really teach it either, especially private Christian schools. I went to a private Christian school for 13 years, and no one ever talked about abuse—not in class, not in church, not even in women’s ministries. For ten years, I led in my role, but no one ever brought me a lesson saying we should stop supporting addicted husbands unconditionally. Advocacy & Awareness We don’t teach women how to be a good support, how to be a safe place to live, how to be a good friend. Can I walk alongside a woman in the middle of trauma, abuse, and betrayal? What should I say? What should I not say? So big churches we have, is that in their bookstores? These materials are not on their bookstore shelves. They’re not promoting them. It is a missed opportunity. Anne: That is why I started podcasting. To educate everyone that abuse causes betrayal trauma. A husband’s addiction will always be abusive to you, their wife. The lies, the gaslighting, all that is abuse. You can’t call it anything else. Evangeline: We didn’t know about erectile dysfunction either. And that my husband needed to begin the pill for that in his early 30’s. I never even learned that fact until my late forties. I didn’t even know that piece of information. Evangeline: For over 15 years, I didn’t know things that should be simple to understand. Women need to understand what they’re going through. We need to learn the words and meanings to describe it. For example, if your husband is an addict, you are experiencing abuse and betrayal. Infidelity Is Abuse: Dealing With An Addict Husband Anne: I think one of the reasons why it’s not common knowledge. They want you to think that their shame causes it, childhood trauma, or something. When many of us feel shame or have childhood trauma. We have problems, and we don’t lie to people and deceive them on purpose. So many people pretend or act like this isn’t a choice, a conscious choice to harm people and exploit them. But that is what it is, and it’s really hard for the courts to wrap their heads around it. For therapists to wrap their heads around it. For friends and family, to realize that abuse is a conscious choice. He knows what he’s doing, and it’s harmful. And of course, she’s upset. Of course, she’s hypervigilant. Anyone going through that is hypervigilant, because someone was hurting her on purpose. She was trying to avoid the chaos her “addict” husband was causing. Like, it’s hard for people to wrap their heads around it. So I’m so grateful that you were willing to come on today to share your story. Because all of us sharing our story helps other women realize what’s going on. So your bravery today to share has been amazing. Evangeline: Thank you for having me Anne. We’re here for you. If you related to any part of Evangeline’s story, we’d love to see you in a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Transcribed - Published: 18 March 2025

If you’re asking, “How can i trust my husband again?” there’s a good chance you’re not just asking about him. You’re probably also asking, when will I stop… checking? bracing? replaying every conversation? feeling sick when he’s alone with his phone? wondering if I’m being fooled again? You’re not looking for a cute little trust exercise involving eye contact, worksheets, and a candle that smells like “fresh start.” You’re looking for something real. 5 Ways to Know: How Can I Trust My Husband Again? 1. Your Body Stops Warning You One of the most confusing parts of betrayal and emotional abuse is that you may sense something is wrong before you can prove it. You might feel uneasy when he’s home alone or when he goes to work. Or feel anxious when he takes his phone into another room. Then, because you’re a reasonable woman with children, laundry, bills, and 47 other things to do, you may tell yourself: “I’m overreacting.” But sometimes your body isn’t overreacting. In fact, your body is likely accurately detecting emotional danger your conscious mind hasn’t been able to name yet. So one way to know if trust is actually being rebuilt is this: 👉🏼 Your body begins to feel safer without his gaslighting manipulating you. 2. He Stops Making Your Pain the Problem If your husband lied, hid things, minimized, used inappropriate media in secret, cheated, or created a double life, the issue isn’t that you struggle to trust him. The issue? Is he trustworthy. A man who is trustworthy won’t blame your normal, healthy distrust of someone who has lied to her the problem, while conveniently skipping over the part where he broke your trust. If he says things like, you… “are never going to get over this.” “ are too suspicious.” “need to stop punishing me.” “have trust issues.” That’s pressure. A safe man sounds different. He doesn’t take much. Instead, he… Understands why you don’t trust him. Agrees that you shouldn’t “be okay” after all he’s done to you. Tells the truth even when it means negative consequences for him. Doesn’t act entitled to your trust. 👉🏼 Does he focus more on your reaction or his deception? 3. The Truth Stops Coming in Installments This is a big one. Is the truth coming out a little bit at a time? Each time pretending to be “the whole truth”? First he says it was once. Then it was a few times. Well, it was only when he was stressed. Then it was “not technically cheating.” See, the thing is, “I didn’t tell you because I didn’t want to hurt you.” Which is such a convert way to say, “I protected my comfort by sacrificing your reality.” If every conversation reveals another hidden piece, your mind has to keep investigating. Not because you enjoy detective work. You ‘re not Nancy Drew. You only keep investigating because your emotional safety depends on knowing the truth. 👉🏼 Every time he does something harmful, does he give a different excuse? 4. His Actions Make Your Life Feel Lighter, Not Heavier After betrayal, many women are told to rebuild trust by doing more. More conversations, vulnerability, forgiveness, patience. Even more therapy. or understanding of his childhood, his stress, his shame, his triggers, his pain, his “journey.” Meanwhile, she’s barely eating, barely sleeping, trying to parent children, function at work, and determine whether her marriage is stable. A man who is becoming safer takes responsibility in ways that reduce your mental load. He… tells the truth without being cornered. answers questions without punishing you. respects your boundaries without sulking. gets appropriate help without making it your project. understands that your anger is not the enemy. His deception was. 👉🏼 Is his “recovery” giving you more peace or more work? 5. You Don’t Have to Betray Yourself to Stay This may be the clearest sign of all. Can you remain in the relationship without abandoning yourself? Does he let you… tell the truth about what happened? have boundaries? say, “I’m not okay,” without him making you pay for it? take the time you need? stop believing his lies, that it was “just a mistake”? acknowledge the sexual, emotional, spiritual, and psychological impact of what he chose? 👉🏼 Can I tell the truth about what he’s done, what I feel, and what I need, without him punishing me, minimizing it, or making me the problem? So, How Can I Trust My Husband Again? You can trust your husband again when he’s trustworthy. And determining if someone who hasn’t been trustworthy is now, takes a long time. If you still feel anxious, suspicious, numb, angry, or afraid, it may mean your body is still trying to protect you. So please don’t rush yourself into “trust” just because he wants relief from the consequences of his choices. You deserve support from people who understand why betrayal feels so devastating and why “just move on” is not a healing plan. If you need clarity now, you don’t have to carry this alone. The first step to knowing if you can trust your husband again is to determine the truth about what’s going on. It may be that he’s using invisible emotional abuse tactics. To uncover if his lying is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse test. Support To Determine If I Can Trust My Husband Again Most women need support as they work to figure out what’s going on. To get support from women who understand, join our daily, online betrayal trauma support group. This episode is part of Shelly’s Story Part 1: What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again? (THIS EPISODE) Part 2: How To Recover After Being Cheated On Transcript: How Can I Trust My Husband Again? Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Shelly. She’s here to share her story of wondering what if she can ever trust her husband again? Welcome Shelly. Shelly: Hi, thank you. Anne: So Shelly has experienced betrayal trauma in multiple relationships. Let’s start at the beginning. Shelly: Okay, so I was actually born into betrayal trauma. I didn’t know that until recently. But my biological father cheated on my pregnant mother. So literally all that stuff in her body, all those hormones, feelings, and emotions when she was pregnant with me were going into me too, with so many me too examples. She sank into deep postnatal depression after my birth. And then, and obviously, betrayal trauma. And she couldn’t fully take care of me. My mother neglected me as a baby, not through any fault of her own. Because she wasn’t able to cope emotionally with what she was going through. When I turned seven, she met my stepdad. Who I didn’t trust. I had this sense that there was something wrong, even as a child. And later, when I was in my teens, he was also leading a double life. He watched pornography, and made advances towards some of my male friends. When I was a teenager. This led me to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. Because a much older man groomed me in his forties when I was around sixteen. I believed I was in a relationship with him, but now I understand it was not, I was his victim. Teenage Trauma & Abuse Shelly: He abused me on every level you can imagine. He was an addict. And chose to use explicit material every day, like degrees beyond comprehension. He made no effort to hide this and was completely open about it. He humiliated me. I had betrayal trauma from infidelity. I was a young teenage woman, and he took photos of me and showed them around. Even now, I know they’re still in the world. Years later, after leaving him, I found out from friends that he’d shown them. He tried to make money off those, I don’t doubt that. I got pregnant at 19, and left him to protect my son. He beat me while I held him, this wasn’t unusual at all. He worsened the violence when I was pregnant. So when I had my son, I think I’d just turned 20, I was in the hospital for a week and he was having sex with someone else. I was with him for a very short time after that. And then I fled, and I left all my family and friends behind. And I left the county to try and find safety for my son. While learning to be a mother, I was also going through what I didn’t understand was PTSD, which I now understand. It was only years later that I understood this. Anne: Have you ever considered yourself a victim of trafficking with that man who took pictures of you and disseminated it as online? Shelly: I do now,. I was not comfortable. Because I saw the photos that he was like parading around, and you can see how uncomfortable I was. I have a son who’s not much younger than I was now. Grooming & Exploitation Shelly: I was a child, and he was friends with people in that world. I remember him saying to me, I could have you in prostitution if I wanted to. He said it like, I look after you so well, I’m not putting you into that world. Look how well I treat you. There was definitely the whole relationship, grooming, it was an abusive relationship. It was someone preying on someone who was young and naive. There are so many types of exploitation. Anne: Your story sounds similar to trafficking victims. They’re not aware of grooming. They think it’s a relationship, but they don’t realize he’s targeted them for this purpose. Shelly: A hundred percent, yeah. I’m aware of that now. But it took me a few years to, in fact it was fairly recently. I actually looked back and was like, that wasn’t a relationship. I was just, it was like trafficking. He used me and my body in any way he desired. He cheated me, lied, and now I’ve heard he’s in the industry. Shelly: Yeah, so I don’t have any contact with him. I disappeared, feared for my life, and ran away. Anne: He now is, but it sounds like he was at the time too. Shelly: Yeah, and he was around a lot of people in that sort of lifestyle. Anne: The exploitation business. Shelly: Exactly, he completely exploited me. I stayed there for four years with him through mental, emotional, physical, he’d used humiliation. He used to enjoy humiliating me in that way. It took a long time to get over. But then you can’t heal them. Finding Safety & New Relationships Shelly: You fall into another relationship and you’re abused again. Anne: I’m so sorry. That sounds awful. Shelly: Yeah, it was years later. So since I had my son, I was looking for a safe family. I just wanted to bring my children up in a happy home. So I fell into another relationship with a man I believed I loved. Later, I found out he’s a complete pathological liar. He wasn’t violent with me. So I thought I was safe, because of my experience before. I didn’t recognize what he was doing to me as abuse, but he was verbally vile to me a lot. He broke my identity apart. He told me who I was and who I wasn’t, and chipped away at me. He’d go out all night, not come home, be full of lies. I knew, my heart knew he wasn’t loyal to me. So because of my past, I thought I had trust issues. And the men I’ve been with have propagated this idea. They’re like, oh yeah, you’ve got trust issues. This is the damage that you’ve got because of your past. Anne: Did he tell you you had trust issues as a way to manipulate you? Shelly: Yeah, completely. At the end of the relationship, I turned into a detective. And found out I was still breastfeeding my daughter when he had an affair with someone else. And the way I found out was so horrific. I got an itemized phone bill, and there were thousands of the same number. My instincts told me something wasn’t right. So I got this itemized phone bill. I rang and a woman answered, and I just knew. He Tells So Many Lies Shelly: When I confronted him, the gaslighting went, like, through the roof. He pulled out all the stops. And so I called her with a completely open heart. And believed my husband lied to her too. Because I knew he was a liar, he was good at it. I’d seen him lie to people around us, and just think, like, why? I don’t understand why you’re lying about this stuff, when there’s no need to. He was just pathological with it, and I approached her. I messaged her. And said look, I believe he’s married and lying to you too. And she didn’t reply for a while, but then when she did, she sent me 17 screenshots of their messages together. I had a baby that was one years old, that I was breastfeeding. We’d not long been on our first family holiday. And he messaged this woman with my daughter sitting on his knee whilst we were on holiday. She verbally attacked me and called me every name under the sun. I approached her with no venom. He is lying to you as well. Because this is what’s actually happening. He is married. And she, the abuse I got off her was horrendous. She threatened my 16 year old son, messaged him and threatened him, she was awful. And, yeah, I lost a stone in two weeks after that. I stopped eating. I was in what I now know to be, strong betrayal trauma. My whole world was falling apart. My Friend Becomes My Partner Shelly: That’s when my now partner came along. I regarded him as a close friend. We’d been close for 20 years, even though we hadn’t seen each other all the time because we lived in different counties. He came along and he was like, he’s lying to you because he was pulling me back in. This guy twisted my head to the point where he called this other woman crazy, saying she was a stalker. He tried to pull me back in, and my sons, my oldest sons, said, mum, he’s lying to you. It was really hard to get out. It seemed like an orbit that I was in. I’d get so far away from him mentally and emotionally, and then he’d pull me back in. I’d be questioning what was real and what wasn’t. Again, my now partner helped so much with that. Maybe a year later, my now partner opened his mouth and confessed that he’d always had deep feelings for me, which I’d always felt deeply for him. We’d known each other for 20 years, so it was like, suddenly everything in me lit up. It was like everything switched. All my ex’s power over me went, and suddenly I was full of love and light. So, we had the most beautiful love story. I had a fairytale level love story, like star crossed love that had been going on for 20 years. Neither of us ever spoke about it. And we’d been in different relationships. We went to each other’s weddings as friends. There was never anything lustful. It was always deep heart, caring. We share children now from past relationships. Can I Ever Trust My Husband Again?Discovering Another Betrayal Shelly: So I actually felt for the first time in my entire life that true love healed me. And that everything I’d been through before was leading to this, and it was like trials of fire to get to the other side. Or the island in the ocean of where stormy weather doesn’t go, but I’d found my safe space, I’d found my person. Anne: I’ll quote a country song from Rascal Flatts, “God bless the broken road that led me safe to you”. Like all these things, they were worth it. Shelly: Yes, exactly, Anne: I found you. Shelly: Fast forward seven years, I find out that he’s hiding an addiction. I don’t actually believe it’s an addiction. He made a choice and hid it from me. The betrayal trauma I feel now is actually so much worse than anything I experienced before. Because he was the light at the end of the tunnel for me. And this relationship made me believe in true love again. And then, all that came crashing down on my first D-Day. https://youtu.be/CVU-eI3SgeQ I had many D-Days after the first admission. I thought I had damage and trust issues. That was my narrative that I’d believed. And I actually said to him, I’m so sorry I have trouble trusting you, of course I didn’t know if I could trust my husband after that. Because I’m damaged from my previous traumatic experiences with my other relationships, and even how I entered the world. And he took that, and he allowed me to believe it was me. So I felt uncomfortable leaving him. in the house on his own. Realizing The Extent Of The Lies Shelly: I felt uncomfortable with him at work, but I put it all down to trust issues. I’m damaged, I haven’t dealt with the trauma in my past, so I’m ruining my perfect relationship with my trust issues. Which actually everything I asked him, even at the points where I asked him, turned out to be true, and it was completely vindicated. So what has actually happened? So I was carrying this, I’ve got trust issues, I’m damaged for so long. I believed those people around me who were just lying. I released myself from that, and I woke up within myself and realized I don’t have trust issues. I’ve just been around loads of people lying to me, and I can feel it. Anne: Yeah, you have a superpower. Shelly: Yeah, suddenly that thing I’d been carrying for so many years has suddenly lifted. I’m not damaged, I’ve just been around people that have treated me really badly. Anne: Was that a relief to you in some ways? Shelly: I felt relief, because like I said, I thought I damaged my perfect relationship. So it was like a double edged sword. Anne: At the time, you were being manipulated to think that you had problems, that this was your fault, but now that you know the truth and look back. And you’re like, oh no, he was gaslighting me. He really was lying to me. Can you tell me more about why you didn’t want him at home by himself? Or why you were worried about him at work? Shelly: It was just a feeling. It was literally just a feeling. There was no concrete evidence at all. I didn’t have anything. He was very good at keeping that separate, completely separate. The Pain Of Gaslighting Shelly: I just had this nagging feeling, an uneasiness of him being at home alone, an uneasiness of him when he is at work. Anne: What an amazing gift… Shelly: Yeah, Anne: …to you. I’m so grateful that you were strong and brave, and nothing was wrong with you. Even if you had “trust issues”. Because, like, why trust people when they’re not trustworthy? Shelly: Exactly. Anne: But in this particular case, your warning system is going off, and now you’re more confident in it because you found out the truth. But to know that he was weaponizing that against you, that’s why it hurts so badly. Shelly: Yeah, and like being in a relationship where he would lecture me on trusting him and how important trust was within the relationship, knowing that he was lying to me. Anne: That is so devastating. That is absolutely, it’s so bad. Sorry, I don’t know why anyone can think this form of abuse is not severe. Shelly: No, I know. It’s abuse on every level. I described it as a spiritual crime to him. It feels like a spiritual crime against another soul. It goes so deep for me and everybody experiencing this. I don’t understand how anyone can literally look themselves in the mirror knowing everything they know about themselves. And just carry on like it’s fine. Anne: And I can see why that was the most traumatic, because you trusted him the most, and he lied to you on such an intimate level. Can I Trust My Husband Again: He Withheld Information Shelly: Yeah, I asked him, just plainly, often, whether he was using explicit material. And always he’d be like, No, I only have eyes for you. I only have eyes for you. It wasn’t like it just never came up. I asked him a lot because of these feelings, my instincts. So it was, there’s no, oh, I thought you’d be fine with it. It wasn’t that at all. He knew where I was with that. And he still chose to hide that from me. It seems pretty clear at this point that I couldn’t trust my husband again. Anne: Which is abusive on so many levels, especially on a intimate level, coercion. When women say, I feel like I was emotionally raped. Basically, and people are like, what, and we’re not kidding. That’s exactly what happened. Because we would not have maybe made those choices or done the things that we did. Had we had the information that they were purposefully withholding from us. Shelly: Exactly. And the coercion has only really crystallized for me quite recently. Because this has been going on for a year now. Anne: So it’s been a year since he told you. Shelly: The D-Days, yeah, I always say D-Days because there was so much that we took a long time for full disclosure. And it just got worse and worse, the things being disclosed. Seeking The Truth Anne: Tell me more about that. Was he disclosing them to you because of therapy or how did the other disclosures happen? Shelly: No, after the first disclosure, we tried to make it light. And smoked and was like, sometimes. I pulled away and was like, you said you never did that. Instantly my heart was broken. Then he started to lie and minimize, he said. It was only three times in our relationship that I’ve done that. The thing is, once I switched on to the fact that he was lying to me and had lied to me, I could see it, and I could literally see him snaking around in front of me, lying to me. It was my warning system, and not letting it go and saying things like you said this, and that doesn’t add up. And okay, tell me this then, so what is it? There’s more I could feel it, I could feel it in my body every time he was lying to me. And I could see it. So there were a lot of lies after the first admission. Who went through for about four months, maybe a bit more serious, like minimizing half truths. Outright lies with him shifting around and tripping himself up and saying something he hadn’t said before. Or saying opposite things, saying two different things, two different sides of one story. And I said to him, you’re not even allowing me to heal, because you’re not telling me the whole truth. So after four or five months of this. And I was on it, I was on fire. I was just calling it the BS knife, because I was so sharply cutting through all these lies, my husband couldn’t be trusted again. He Gives A Full Disclosure Shelly: It culminated in going away and staying in a hotel room. And he was like, okay, I’m gonna tell you everything. He literally listed everything from childhood, told me stuff like when I wasn’t around. About him looking at other women just gave me what I felt was a full story. And it was incredibly traumatic. Anne: Were you interested in that, or was this like a way of grooming you, or can you talk a little bit about that? Shelly: I wouldn’t leave it until I got the full story. I needed to know everything. I needed to know who I was with. And it felt like pulling the truth out of him. It was my instincts that were telling me, you’re still not telling me the truth. There’s more and more. We had many horrific bombs dropped in my lap, with more and more truth, it got worse and worse. Anne: So how are you feeling now? Shelly: Like I said, it’s been a year. I did have moments where I was like, I don’t even know if I can love you anymore after this level of lies. I don’t think I can trust my husband again. But because of the work he’s done, a lot of meditation. He had a lightbulb moment when we listened to something, and it said the body doesn’t know the difference between what the mind is thinking. So, if you’re reliving your trauma all the time, he compartmentalized and kept this in a separate dark box. And then he was the good dad and he was a good partner. In all the other boxes, he was full of light and this wonderful man, but then he had this dark box where he kept all that stuff. What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again: Partner’s Realization & Efforts Shelly: So he literally gave that energy to another person. When he’s supposed to be committed and loyal to me. My husband was proving I couldn’t trust him anymore. Anne: On that note, he’s “such a good dad.” It was a feeling that you had, that something wasn’t quite right. But I want to talk about the other types of abuse that you experienced for a minute, the gaslighting and the emotional and psychological abuse. Do you think that even though it wasn’t overt, because I guess he wasn’t screaming in your face, he wasn’t, overtly calling you names that would have been obvious to you. But do you think that might have been what you were picking up on? Even though you didn’t know that you were picking up on it because you couldn’t see it and couldn’t tell. But do you think that was what you were picking up on? Shelly: Yeah, I do. I reckon my instincts were warning me, and self protection was kicking in. Anne: So you and your partner were together in a committed relationship for how long when he disclosed his use? Shelly: Seven years. So it’d been going on for seven years. Anne: Why did he disclose it? That’s a question I always ask, because they could be repentant at this point where they’re like, oh my word, I can’t live like this anymore. I’ve got to come clean. I’ve got to change. That’s a possibility. There’s also a possibility where they want to hurt you. I’m not saying that’s your situation, and I’m not trying to convince you of that. Why Disclose Now? Anne: In my case, when my ex-husband was in addiction recovery, and was doing so well. Then near the end, there was a sudden turn where he started telling me he was using. Before that, he was lying to me about it. When I look back, I’m like, I think he might have been having an emotional affair. There was something going on, and he wanted me to be the cause of the demise of our marriage. And so he was like, starting to be overtly aggressive and abusive. He would tell me he was using, because he knew that was a deal breaker for me. And so that’s one of the questions I want women to think about is why now, because that might help as we’re trying to heal or determine, what do I want to do? Is this safe for me? Is it not safe for me to ponder that question? If my husband lied to me the whole time, why is he telling me the truth now? Shelly: So I questioned him on that, and he said he felt it was getting to a point where it was out of control. He didn’t ever feel good about himself, because of what he was doing and living this double life. But he was scared to tell me the whole lot in one go. He didn’t have the strength to tell me everything in one go. I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me. It seemed like he was lightly slipping the truth in. And then he was like, now I’ve got all hell to deal with. So then he was trying to backtrack and minimize, and giving me non-truth and half truth. How could I ever trust him again after this? Can Ever Trust My Husband Again? I Think He Wanted To Change Shelly: So I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me with that. And I think that he, maybe subconsciously, wanted to change. I hope that’s the case. I definitely don’t believe he was using that to try and hurt me, because he’s not vindictive in that way, and he always wanted to look after me. He knew me in these past relationships, he was my friend, and he came along like this knight in shining armor. And just wanted to protect me. Then had this realization that he’d been exactly the same, and which he’s actually struggled with. We’ve spoken in great depth about the conditioning and objectification of humans. But obviously from this perspective, he was part of that, and he’s horrified with himself, and I believe that’s genuine. He was in groups of friends that were, it was just normal, it was just, this is what guys do, it’s just normal. That might be fine. If you’re in a relationship and you’re fine with that, then that’s fine. But this isn’t, and it wasn’t, and he chose that because he knew my stance on that. He knew he was lying to me, so this wasn’t normal and okay. And to consenting people and the coercion thing, realizing that I hadn’t been giving full consent. We’ve also spoken about that a lot, so he’s horrified with himself. Which I think is good. But, does that change whether or not I can trust him again? Anne: Yeah, that is good. Challenges In Counseling Anne: I wondered about therapy. In my opinion, the likelihood of it worsening is too risky. Shelly: I had the exact same feeling, actually. I wasn’t sure that any form of counseling would be helpful. Because of the tendency in society to normalize this stuff, and as long as you’re not physically cheating with someone else, then what’s the problem? Anne: You’re like, oh, the lying. But yeah. Shelly: Yeah, I was very apprehensive about any form of counseling. We went to the doctors, he wanted me to come with him. We sat with him. A female doctor, and he started talking and breaking down. He said he didn’t understand how he could do this to me. And struggled with his mental health and self perception. He was advised to take counseling. And they offered him a woman counselor on a screen, video calling, and I was like, I’m not comfortable with that. I’m not comfortable with that at all. We’re like, we’re talking about, you’re looking at women on the screen. I’m not comfortable with you having counseling with a woman on a screen. That’s like in this space, I don’t feel safe with that. So he requested a man, and luckily he did end up with a really. good counselor who he was able to express where he was with in a safe place without it being normalized. I felt I was on my way to trusting him again. And the lady doctor, when we went together, she said, do you want me to point you in the direction of addiction services? And he was like, I don’t actually think I have an addiction. It’s more of a choice that I decided to stop, where he didn’t go down that route. Validation & Healing Shelly: We both had counseling separately and thought about couples therapy. But again, my instincts were not fully on that either. So we haven’t, we’ve done a lot of work together just between us, in meditations, and in just hearing each other. A lot of it’s been me, speaking my heart and my pain. Sometimes, he’s struggled to deal with the anger, because he’s got a tendency to defend himself. So he’s working through that now. But his determination to make it right has given me hope and stuck me here. Actually, the full disclosure of everything he did, he could have easily not told me, is that it’s been the truth that’s kept us together. Anne: Can you talk about your journey to find Betrayal Trauma Recovery and want to share your story? Shelly: I was talking to him and I said to him, there’s so much help for you, that it literally feels like there’s no help for me. It was only recently that I’d found out that this sort of trauma has a name. And then I was starting to look into betrayal trauma, and then connecting all the dots from the rest of my life previously. It was actually him that was looking for ways to help me, and he discovered your podcast. And the first one he found was women saying, “This is the best way to heal from betrayal trauma.” And he was like, I want you to listen to this. And that was how I found you. I wanted to share my story, because I think that is another step forward in healing in our journey. Putting this out because I’ve kept it very close to my heart and it’s been hard. What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again: Finding Support & Community Anne: As part of your journey to healing, to find a community with women who have been through this? Who all worry about if they can trust their husband again. Shelly: And feeling so validated in a world that normalizes this stuff and it’s everywhere. Feeling so validated for feeling so strongly about this and feeling so heartbroken about this. That validation has given me so much. There are other women wondering if they can trust their husbands. Anne: Let’s talk about that validation for a minute. Can you talk about the difference in knowing that women are horrified and traumatized? And they’re experiencing emotional and psychological abuse on these intense levels. And that almost all society doesn’t recognize this type of trauma. What’s your feeling now that you realize you’ve been completely normal and that there are so many other women who feel the way you do? Shelly: I feel like there’s an army of women out there that I’m part of. Before, I felt isolated and we would talk to friends. It would be like, I didn’t speak about this, about my personal experience with friends, but just in conversation. Oh yeah, as long as they’re not cheating and come back to you at the end of the night. It’s the validation that this actually affects people much more than is spoken about. Because people don’t talk about it. It’s giving it a voice. Anne: And that’s why I do this podcast to give women like you the opportunity to share your story, share how you feel, share how this affected you. Belief It’s Possible To Trust My Husband Again Shelly: Yeah, that is a powerful thing. That’s a powerful thing, because before I knew of my emotions, I felt like I was on my own in that. I wasn’t, there are many others who also wonder what if they can trust him again. Anne: I am so grateful that you’re a member of our community and supporting me in my healing process. I am honored and have been honored through the years to hear all these stories. Women who share these stories are in a vulnerable place, and it’s such an honor to like, sit with you. I know I was in the same spot. Maybe a different spot, because my husband’s character, was deceptive. I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately, about how I believe people can change. And, that makes this job hard, right? Because how do we know if someone is or isn’t when they’ve lied to you all these years, right? How can you tell if you can trust him? So that place where you are right now in your healing process is a vulnerable spot, but it is okay to be there. And there’s no way to get out of it other than to go through it, because you want to make the right decision for you and your family. And we get that. Shelly: Yeah, and you have to feel every layer of grief to release yourself from it. And it’s a hard thing to face, because it’s not anything that anyone would choose to feel. But that, the only way out is to go in, and that’s the process I’m in. And it feels like I’ve been doing it forever now. Reflections On Change & Trust Anne: Hopefully not forever, right? It’s been so interesting. My process, I feel so good now. But there were, I don’t know, 14 years where I felt like this is going to be forever. So I totally understand. I wondered if I could trust him again, and found out I couldn’t. Shelley, if you’re willing to come back and share how you’re doing in six months to a year. I would love to have you come back on and share what’s going on, what you’ve learned through the process. So if you’re willing to do that, I would love to talk to you again. Shelly: Yeah, definitely up for that, yeah. Anne: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story, and keep in touch. Shelly: Yeah, I will do, thank you.

Transcribed - Published: 4 March 2025

If you’re searching for a support group for marriage problems because your husband’s behavior is starting to scare you, or because traditional counseling hasn’t helped, you’re in the right place. Most women who find BTR begin exactly where you are right now: scared, unsure, and trying to figure out who they can safely talk to when their marriage feels confusing or frightening. But here’s what almost no one tells you: Not every support group for marriage problems is emotionally safe for women. Not every counselor understands. And not every institution knows how to help you. Today’s episode explores why the struggle to find the right type of support group for marriage problems is actually a systemic issue. You’ll hear from sociologist Dr. Nicole Bedera, whose research exposes how universities often fail women who are scared, even if they follow every “correct” path to get help. And then you’ll meet Haley, a woman whose college experiences mirror what so many married women face in counseling offices, churches, Title IX, and even courtrooms. Their stories may not be about marriage directly, but the patterns are heartbreakingly similar, where women are seeking help blamed or minimized told to “be fair” to the man who hurt them pushed into silence left without the clarity or support they needed If you’ve been wondering where to turn, or what kind of support group for marriage problems can actually help, here are five truths from this episode that will help you find the right support. 1. A Support Group for Marriage Problems isn’t usually Built for Clarity A lot of marriage-based groups focus on: communication skills mutual responsibility serving each other But since you’ve already tried these things, more of it likely won’t help clarify what’s actually going on if you’re confused about what’s going on in your marriage, 2. If You’re UnSURE what’s Going On With Your Husband, It’s Likely Not A Marriage Problem Women often think: “He isn’t always like this.” “I’m probably overreacting.” “He’s stressed. Maybe that’s all this is.” But confusion is information. Your body senses something is amiss before your mind has language for it. Any support group for marriage problems or helper who tells you you’re “too sensitive” or “too emotional” is not equipped to help you. 3. Institutions Often Protect the Person Hurting You This is the clearest thread between Nicole’s research and the stories we hear from married women every day. When women are confused, universities, churches, pastors, counselors, or courts, don’t support women who need answers. They act as a mediator between two parties, but if he’s lying, it will just be more of the same. The best support group for marriage problems will break this pattern and give you clarity, without you having to communicate with him more, especially since communicating with him hasn’t cleared up confusion in the past. 4. WHEN Manipulative Men Use Systems to Their Advantage, a support group for marriage problems is essential This is one of the hardest truths women aren’t told, but one of the most important. When a woman is confused by her husband, it’s usually because he’s lying to her and … charming counselors throwing her under the bus with church leaders appearing calm while you appear shaken using systems to make you look “unstable” or “dramatic” That’s why Haley’s story matters for married women too. Her abusers used university structures the same way husbands use counseling or clergy, to stay in control and keep the woman quiet. A safe support group for marriage problems knows these patterns and can help you navigate them. 5. The Best Support for Marriage Problems Is Confidential A true support group for marriage problems should: protect your confidentiality help you trust your instincts give you clarity never push you toward something that scares you Women deserve to have clarity about what’s going on, long before they ever step into a counseling office or try to get help from an institution that may not understand. We understand and you can receive live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session As You Listen to This Episode… Notice how both women in these interviews talk about trying to get help in all the “correct” ways and how each system responded, they were… doubted blamed minimized If marriage counseling, recovery programs, support groups for marriage problems, religious leaders, Title IX offices, or courts have left you confused or unsafe, today’s episode will help you understand why. If you need clarity in your marriage, here’s my Clarity After Betrayal workshop. Transcript: When You Don’t Know Where To Turn For Help Anne: We’re gonna start with Dr. Badera. She’s a sociologist, an author of the book, On The Wrong Side: How Universities Protect Perpetrators and Betray Survivors. Her research focuses broadly on how our social structures contribute to survivor trauma. Nicole puts her work into practice at the Center for Institutional Courage. After I get done talking to Nicole, I’ll have Hailey share her story. Welcome Nicole. Nicole: Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. Anne: I’m excited too. Listeners to this podcast are trying to get clarity after betrayal. They often start by searching for a support group for marriage problems. And most of the time, they can’t get clarity because the people they go to to get help aren’t able to help them because they don’t know what’s going on. Your work focuses on students trying to get help on college campuses, but I think it really intersects. Because in both cases, they don’t get the information or support they need. Can you talk about your research? Nicole: I focus on what happens for students still in school. Victims report to most of the Title IX office most of the time. You might have heard about it in the news.  It’s been everywhere over the past 10 years, but it’s quieted down quite a bit recently. I spent a year inside one of those Title IX offices interviewing the victims, perpetrators, and school administrators who had the most control over their cases. So in that setting, all knew something was wrong. They might not know how to label it, or how to label it in a way that the system would recognize. That’s something survivors deal with a lot. Especially since a lot of this stuff is just made to feel normal for women. Seeking help through the Title ix office parallels seeking a support group for marriage problems Nicole: There’s this idea that this is what you should expect when you go to college. And so there were some that they weren’t sure what was going on, but they knew that something had affected usually their education. Or they felt unsafe, unsettled, and they ended up in my study because they went to their school for help. Either through the victim advocacy office, which on a college campus, can help survivors with whatever they need, but many things that have nothing to do with the perpetrator. Including things like they need an extension on an assignment, or there’s a specific class they want to take, but their perpetrator wants to take it. So they’re trying to coordinate to figure out when they can take it in the semester that they won’t be in the same classroom, things like that. Or they went through the Title IX office to try to report what happened to them, to try to seek some kind of safety or justice. But many themes are not that different from all the other places that maybe you’ve considered going to for help. Anne: When a woman has a situation where she needs help, but she doesn’t quite know where to go to find help, it’s so heartbreaking for me. I see this often with wives trying to figure it out after their husband’s betrayal. We usually do couple therapy, or maybe like addiction recovery, trying to figure out how can I start to feel safe again in my marriage. Why do you think this idea of safety and how to feel safe again is just so hard for pretty much everybody to understand? Like what do you mean she feels unsafe and what are we supposed to do about it? The Primary concern of the title ix office Nicole: There are a couple of issues that we run into. One of them is that a lot of the systems that we think are going to help, won’t help. If you think about a college campus, for example. Students are told, if you’re experiencing sexual violence, sexual harassment, or any kind of gender discrimination, come to the Title IX office and they will help you. But that’s not what the Title IX office is concerned with. Their primary concern is what do we do with this perpetrator. Sometimes doing something about the perpetrator would help if the school would, which they often hesitate to do. But a lot of the time, that’s not meeting a survivor’s need in a real way. That’s the same issue that comes up if you go to a couple therapist or support group for marriage problems. I think many people who’ve tried for help at any of these institutions have an experience where you’re coming in for something really tangible for yourself. So an example I gave earlier is you are, let’s say you’re a victim in a university setting, and you show up on the first day of class. And you see your perpetrator is in class with you, and that the class will discuss sexual violence as a topic. So this just feels impossible for you to be safe in this environment, because it’s going to remind you of your trauma. You might have to watch your perpetrator interact. It’s going to be just a place where your body and mind respond to the traumatic experiences you’ve already had. Anne: And the trauma you continue to experience because the likelihood of him gaslighting you through this whole thing is like off the charts. the System focuses on what it means for the perpetrator Nicole: You’re right. It’s unlikely that if you’re in that class with your perpetrator. You and your perpetrator will share the same public narrative about why you can’t sit next to him in class. And so the perpetrator might disparage the victim, might tell lies about what happened to avoid accountability. You’re right. A victim in that scenario reasonably is just thinking, I just want this guy out of my class, right? I want to take the class I want to take and complete my degree on time. Why is this affecting me in this scenario? Most people, if you think about it rationally, would say, that’s a reasonable set of requests. You know, you’ve already experienced a sexual assault. That’s enough of a burden. You shouldn’t have to sacrifice your education too. But in our current university system, there is no way to get that outcome. And so instead, when a victim comes forward and says, “This is what I need,” the entire system is focused on, “But what would this mean for the perpetrator? Is it fair to him? Is this going to be too much for him?” That happens within a support group for marriage problems. The focus can be on the perpetrator. This is one of the stories I start the book with. Even if the system works as it claims, it can’t fix it. There is no version of a sexual assault response in our society that can intervene in two weeks. We don’t really have a version of that right now. That’s a big part of why coming forward is so harmful, because they will tell you to wait. They will re-traumatize you. They will force you back into communication, into being in the same room with your perpetrator. Metaphor of hot stove with women in scenarios including a support group for marriage problems Anne: I help all sorts of women in all sorts of scenarios. But one that I’m thinking of right now is a woman with a protective order, and he continues to violate the protective order. And she keeps calling it in, and then they have to have a hearing about it. And the hearing isn’t for like three months. In the meantime, there’s no protection for her. To hear the prosecutor talk about the date of the court hearing, rather than to hear somebody say, “I care about you. We’re going to do something so that he can’t come around you anymore.” That’s what she needs to hear. But for some reason, that’s like beyond their comprehension. Nicole: I use this metaphor putting your hand on a hot stove. Right now, our systems just tell the victim, pretend it’s not burning you. Just keep being burned while we decide what to do. And if it is burning you and you can’t handle it, there must be something wrong with you. And a better system would say, let’s turn off the stove. We’re just going to turn it off and we’re going to take a minute to figure out what to do next. Anne: This happens in marriages all the time. Because the support group for marriage problems, the professional counselor, clergy, or any number of people she’s going to for help, don’t identify that “the stove is on,” to use your metaphor. They’re like, “Something’s wrong with you because you’re burned for no reason.” Nicole: Right. Or let’s try to evenly manage this. There’s this real temptation in a lot of these systems to say, “Well, why don’t both people come to the table and offer something?” victims just want to feel safe Nicole: And so that would be akin in the same metaphor to saying, “Well, why don’t we have the stove turned down a little bit? And why don’t we have the person with their hand on the stove stop complaining they’re being burned?” And that doesn’t make sense. We as a culture are comfortable asking for more sacrifices from victims, as long as it’s in the name of giving an advantage to their perpetrator. But we know that abuse takes place when there is a power inequity. And so if that’s the reason we’re saying both people have to do something or the victim can’t get what they need. Because we want to give a benefit to the perpetrator, that will always deepen that inequity. It’s always going to deepen that power disparity, and that can make the abuse worse. Anne: My eye is twitching. The other thing I think is interesting when it comes to reporting or not reporting. For me and many women who have been through it, reporting wasn’t the issue. We just wanted to feel safe. I didn’t necessarily want my ex husband to go to jail. I just wanted him to leave me alone. In my personal case, I had a protective order. The criminal court said, “Do not talk to him, you have a protective order,” but the civil court ordered me to talk to him because we share children. So for eight years, my ex abused me post divorce. A man I have a protective order against, who I do not want to talk to. But the civil court forces me to talk to him because of my kids. I didn’t want to report his abuse, so he went to jail. the Title ix debate Anne: I think that’s the thing that people have a hard time with, especially with custody cases, where the judge is like, “Well, I can’t take away custody because then I’d be calling him an abuser. And then what? He’d go to prison.” Victims want to be safe. And in many of these civil cases, especially with kids. The safe parent, the mother, is seeking a support group for marriage problems, she is not trying to throw him in jail. And same thing in college, victims are just asking that he doesn’t go to this class, maybe he transfers schools. But for some reason, they equate it to prison. Nicole: That’s exactly right. And I want to say that this is a new problem. And the Title IX debate is actually the center of why this is happening throughout society. So, a little history, in 1972, a law passed. And that law said sex discrimination is illegal on college campuses that receive federal funding. And that’s all schools, to be clear. Even Harvard accepts a lot of funds from the federal government to keep their doors open. They would have a very hard time keeping their doors open without those federal funds. And the law itself is just a single sentence. The law isn’t super clear about everything that’s included and not included. So there were a series of court cases to try to figure that out. One of them was in 1980, Alexander v. Yale, and that was the first court case that said that sexual violence should be illegal on a college campus, that it should be something that schools should do something about, and they should have their own internal proceedings to manage sexual violence. Colleges don’t follow the law and women seeking a support group for marriage problems Nicole: And the focus here wasn’t about sending people to jail. That’s what you could call the police for, if that’s what you wanted. This is specifically for scenarios where victims’ educations were impacted by their sexual assaults, intimate partner violence, stalking, or whatever they experienced. And so, the Department of Education had argued that schools need to do something to ensure that violence doesn’t interfere with the quality of education you receive from the school, including things like if there’s a known perpetrator on campus. Let’s say he’s a professor, let’s say he’s withholding good grades unless students provide sexual favors, which is what that 1980 court case was about. Part of what Title IX would require is removing the perpetrator from campus, because obviously no woman can get a fair education from that person. And so the focus is on restoring those educational rights. The issue was that schools just didn’t do it. And so every few years, the Department of Education would remind schools that they had to do something about sexual harassment and violence, and they just didn’t do it. And for the most part, it didn’t capture much attention until the Obama administration. Anne: Was part of their justification for not doing their job them thinking, “If it was bad enough, she’d call the police.” Nicole: Certainly. Inside Higher Ed conducted a survey in 2015, where they asked university presidents, do you think campus sexual violence is a problem on your campus? And the vast, vast, vast majority said, “No, that’s a problem at other schools. We don’t have to worry about it,” which is not true. The Law captures national attention Nicole: By the way, we have yet to find a university that doesn’t have sexual violence as a problem. And so, yes, that’s part of how they justified it, “We don’t want to handle this, this is a criminal act, not a civil act.” But that’s not what the law said. And so, the Obama administration sent out another one of these reminder letters, and for whatever reason, it became hotly politicized. And in that moment, a group of Harvard professors, law professors, wrote an essay saying the Title IX approach the Obama administration required wasn’t right. Because it didn’t allow the same kind of due process protections that the criminal justice system does. So exactly what you’re saying, that’s what they said. And to be clear, a lot of these Harvard Law professors were not specialized in issues of gender based violence. And the average lawyer gets very little training during law school about sexual violence or harassment, especially in civil settings. So they were just wrong. They were just flat out wrong. But this argument captured the national attention. It went viral. Other judges and lawyers think there are due process protections on college campuses that never existed before. Prior to this moment, if you faced student disciplinary proceedings on a college campus, your only rights were to know your accusations, and what the violation would be, and have some chance to respond, but there were no rules about how you would do that. So some schools did it in writing, some did it through hearings, some weren’t doing much of anything. A guest speaker example Nicole: And so, this new idea that anything involving sexual violence must be held to a criminal standard of due process. It is only a few years old. It’s not too late to reverse it, and we should, because the stakes are so different. I call it “Accumulated Fantasies of Disaster.” Where, exactly like you’re describing, a victim says, “I need one thing,” and sometimes on college campuses, that is safety for their kids. Married people live in student housing on college campuses with children, living in essentially the dorms, but family dorms. And that’s often what they’re looking for. I am trying to escape an abusive marriage. I need a support group for marriage problems. My partner is still on campus, and we’re still living in the same dorm. And is there another unit I can move into with my kids as I go through divorce proceedings, as I go through a custody battle, essentially saying exactly what you are. “Well, if we do that, it could lead to all these other issues for the perpetrator down the line.” And some stories that I heard during my time in the field were really unreasonable. For example: A guest speaker who came to a campus sexually harassed a woman. The guest speaker was CEO of a company. And he stalked and sexually harassed her since meeting her. He had no other tie to the campus community. So from a legal perspective, the university had no obligation to him. They don’t have to let him come back and speak again. They don’t even have to let him come on campus if they don’t want to, because he’s not a student. He’s not a professor. He has no rights to this space. Men accused don’t have bad things happen to them: finding a support group for marriage problems Nicole: But instead, the Title IX investigators wrapped themselves in knots to think of all of these horrible things that could happen to him if they took the victim’s wishes into consideration, which was just, please don’t invite him back to be guest speaker again. I don’t want this to happen to anybody else. And they said things like, “He could get a bad reputation, he could lose his job, he could be incarcerated.” And it’s not true. Because a lot of these proceedings are private. They can’t hand private files to the police. That’s illegal. That’s not how it works. People have privacy rights. Educational documents, in particular, are really private. But that’s what they’re thinking. They’re saying, “If you come forward, every bad thing will happen to this person.” And yeah, we’re talking about a CEO. Who’s going to fire him, himself? It doesn’t make sense. Anne: Also, heaven forbid, a bad thing happen to a rapist. Nicole: I completely agree. I think we can all see from just examples in pop culture, presidential races, whatever it might be. Men accused of sexual assault tend not to have bad things happen to them. Women seeking a support group for marriage problems face this as well. If anything, I argue they tend to get benefits. The Johnny Depp trial is a great example. He made an entire comeback. He was having a hard time finding work in Hollywood because of his own behavior on set. Now he’s getting this second chance. Because he’s known as a perpetrator of domestic violence, which he never refuted, by the way. Accumulated fantasies of disaster Nicole: He never refuted that he had physically harmed Amber Heard. He never said that. And he simply argued that she deserved it, which worked. Anne: That’s insane, it’s wild. We should see through it, but we don’t, because we come to a place from victim blaming first. I kept seeing people worry about worst-case scenarios…accumulated fantasies of disaster about what might happen to perpetrators. And how bad it’ll be if we say out loud what they did. But I interviewed the perpetrators, and those things didn’t happen to them. If anything, many of them enjoyed these accountability proceedings. Because, like we’re talking about, there’s these contradictions in them. Court proceedings constrain the victim’s behavior. They don’t allow the victim to do X, Y, and Z, or it’ll hurt their credibility. While simultaneously, forcing them to be in contact the perpetrator regularly. And that’s something perpetrators enjoy. Anne: Yeah, they like it. Nicole: Yes! Anne: Sorry, we need to focus on this. I created a strategy workshop. It’s called the Living Free Workshop, Click on that link and learn more. It helps women see why abusers like this enjoy it. And what these types of abusers get out of it. So that women can use strategy to protect themselves and find emotional safety in a support group for marriage problems. Because we don’t enjoy it. That’s what you discovered. I’m like, yes, they enjoy it. And it’s because they never lose. Nicole: Even if they lose, the losses are hollow. They expelled one student for intimate partner violence while I was on campus. The dean of students facilitated a perpetrators transfer Nicole: So it is rare, I was on campus that year. But what that expulsion meant was because of this rush to protect the perpetrator. This rush to make sure nothing bad happened to him. The Dean of Students had already helped facilitate his transfer to another university by the time he was expelled. It was close enough, he didn’t even have to move apartments. And they had slowed down the proceedings for two years. Originally with the hope that he would graduate before they had to hold him accountable. But he didn’t graduate for a whole host of reasons. Instead, the victim had to take a leave of absence, for those two years. Because he was so violent and so dangerous that she couldn’t safely be on campus. And so they told her, you know, the same thing we’re talking about before. Until he’s been through this process, we can’t offer you any kind of assistance. So if you can’t handle being here, you’re the one who should leave. And that’s one of the big things that I hope people take from all these conversations. It is that every time we do something like this to protect a perpetrator, every time we say, “I’m going to be fair to both people, I’m going to invite both of you to this place, and anybody who can’t handle it, don’t come.” What you’re really saying is the perpetrator is going to be here and the victim won’t. Because you’re not giving them anything that’s possible to do. Victims can’t turn off their trauma and peacefully coexist. Even if they do manage to share space with the perpetrator, it always takes a toll, and that’s unfair. Everything is backwards: victim blaming and finding a support group for marriage problems or victims Nicole: It’s not right. Everything is totally backwards. Anne: Yeah. Well, the other issue that people don’t recognize is that he is still going to be abusing her. It could be a basketball game, whatever. The way he acts, the way he’s lying about her, the way he’s like, “Oh, she’s so crazy.” That is abuse. And he’s still doing it right now. So you haven’t stopped the abuse. It’s not like this happened in the past. She still needs some sort of support group for marriage problems or victims of emotional abuse. Nicole: And I would argue that even if nothing happens, that still is a continuation of the abuse as well. Because I think of all these scenarios where the perpetrator and victim are forced to share space. Again, kids are a common scenario. And everybody watching wants to see this cartoon villain of a perpetrator that doesn’t exist. And so instead they say, “He seemed nice, he was friendly to you, you seem like you’re the one who’s overreacting.” And that’s part of the plan too. A big part of that abuse is showing they can follow social norms, and treat people appropriately. And ultimately, it still leads to often, in this case, other people blaming the victim, questioning their legitimacy. That’s a lot of what perpetrators do in these proceedings. They come in and they don’t scream and yell. They’re not physically violent in that setting. And so people think, “Oh, he must be fine.” Anne: It’s called grooming, and grooming is abusive. So that IS the abuse. And they don’t realize they’re abused too, because he’s lying. No one is helping victims transfer to a new school Nicole: A good point. Anne: The same thing happens everyday with the courts with civil custody cases. that part where you said the university helped him transfer his stuff to the new school. No one is helping the victims do these things. No one’s helping wives in these scenarios. They have to find their own support group for marriage problems. Nicole: And that was one of the most glaring disparities of all. And there’s actually an academic concept that I think would be helpful to your listeners. It’s this idea of institutional betrayal. And institutional betrayal is defined as an institution’s actions or inactions that exacerbate trauma. So when they behave in a way that makes the traumatic experience more traumatic, and that’s one of the big things. How violent and traumatic an experience is for a victim is not set from the end of the violent event. It actually depends on everything that happens afterwards. So, you know, if you tell your friends, do they believe you? Do they take your side or your perpetrator’s side? Do you get control over what happens after the violence is over? Or is somebody reporting to the police against your will or putting you into these scenarios that you don’t want to be in against your will? Abuse is ultimately a violation of autonomy. And so every time an institution violates our autonomy again, that’s going to trigger those traumatic experiences. We find survivors experiencing institutional betrayal show the same traumatic symptoms as a sexual assault victim a second time in studies. It is an equal severity to that original act of violence. Institutional betrayal is overwhelming Nicole: Which is why it’s important that our institutions get this right, and for our friends and families to get this right too. Because a lot of people find this overwhelming. And I think it is overwhelming to think, “Wow, I thought the worst was over, but I could actually encounter something just as bad when I seek help,” is really overwhelming. But on the other hand, if we do get it right, we actually have the capacity to make this violence less damaging to victims. And that’s the place where I come out on a hopeful side. Survivors who, when they seek help and get it, have fewer traumatic symptoms. The traumatic impact of that original event is lessened. So that’s got to be our goal here: to step out of these damaging patterns just because it’s the way things are, or it’s what we’re used to, and oh, it would take work and change to do something different. Those aren’t good reasons. We should do the right thing because the stakes are really high. And we could really help a lot of people. Anne: I talk with victims every day. When couples therapists don’t help them, when clergy don’t help them, when police don’t help them, when the civil court system doesn’t help them, and when a support group for marriage problems doesn’t help them, my eye twitches. Nicole: I wanna say one of the things about institutional betrayal and the reasons why I think it’s important that people know how institutions can harm victims is that institutional betrayal can’t happen to the same severity if we already have some distrust for the institution. Setting realistic expectations when seeking a support group for marriage problems or victims Nicole: One of the key components is going to get help, and thinking you’re going to get it, and then not getting it. And so setting realistic expectations, not to lower the bar for these institutions, to know what can happen. Anne: That’s what the Living Free Workshop is for, anticipating. If you talk to clergy about this, this is likely what’s going to happen. Like know these things beforehand. The Living Free Workshop helps victims anticipate, because this has been driving me crazy for years. In my state, at the bottom of every article about domestic violence, every single one, there’s like a “Call the National Domestic Violence Hotline and then call our state domestic violence hotline.” And everyone thinks that’s the solution. They think reporting is the solution. They don’t realize that’s not the solution at all. In fact, one victim that I know, she recently had the department that oversees victim services contact her. And they were like, “Hey, we heard that you had a bad interaction with a police officer in this certain county.” We’re going to interview you. So she told them, ” Yeah, I’ve been working with this domestic violence shelter. I have a victim advocate.” She told him the whole story. She’s been working with a victim advocate at our local domestic violence shelter for over two years. They reviewed her case. And they got back to her, and guess what they said? They said, “Oh, your case is really, really bad. You need services. Have you contacted your local domestic violence shelter?” Nicole: Oh my. Go to a confidential community Anne: So it was like a full circle, you know. People in general think how we have to do is put this phone number on the bottom of a newspaper article and problem solved. And if she called that number and she’s still in this mess, it’s her fault because she didn’t use the services correctly. Nicole: So I think one of the questions I get a lot is, if a lot of these systems aren’t trustworthy, where can we go? And the response is to go to a confidential community like this one. That is different than a domestic violence service. You want one that’s confidential, because your group won’t call the police. The court can’t subpoena you. So if you have questions to try to make sense of all the options in your community, they can work through that with you without things snowballing out of your control. But that’s what I would say. Make sure you’re going somewhere confidential that will give you a lot of options, not just one option. Anywhere that’s pushing you back to one option is probably not the right place. I talk about these broader trends in how survivors lose their autonomy and become re-traumatized when they’re trying to find a good support group for marriage problems. What we’ve been talking about this whole time. Which is when a victim says, “I’ve experienced this, I’m dealing with these consequences, and I need help with these consequences.” They’re recast as punishing, and everything is focused on, “But that could be bad for the perpetrator.” That is one of the biggest red flags. Because you can’t just make that stuff go away. Like, trauma is trauma. It’s a physiological process. We can see evidence of it on the body. Recognizing consequences are not unfair to the perpetrator Nicole: You can’t just say, “Oh, you’re right. I don’t want anything bad to happen to my perpetrator.” So it goes away. That’s one of the ones to think about. Conflation between addressing the consequences that are inevitable, that will happen due to the action of sexual violence, or coercion or harassment, or whatever it is you’ve experienced, and acting as if recognizing those consequences is inherently unfair to the perpetrator. Anne: I was trying to explain this to someone once, and I said, “Can you imagine if a man had a business partner and that business partner stole a bunch of money from the business, and the guy couldn’t hold him accountable in court? And then everyone around him was telling him, “You have to attend church with this guy.” Nicole: Right, it’s suddenly so clear. It’s suddenly so clear that it would be unfair. Anne: And people say to me, that’s crazy. This is completely different. And I’m like, “What I’m talking about is like 50 billion times worse.” Nicole: Yeah. Anne: Thinking about it in terms of a man being forced to interact with someone who hurt him, they can’t even talk about that because they’re like, “that would never happen.” Women need to find a support group for marriage problems that understands this. Nicole: I mean, gender is such a big part of it, right? It is. Yeah. On a Title IX case, you would call it complainant and respondents, when those roles are reversed, usually in a retaliatory complaint. Where a real act of violence happened, the victim tried to report it, and the perpetrator responded by filing a second complaint saying, “Actually, I’m the true victim.” retaliatory complaints by perpetrators: help from a support group for marriage problems or victims Nicole: So again, a classic example of this is Johnny Depp versus Amber Heard, where he doesn’t argue that there was never any violence. He says she deserved it. Actually, she’s the abuser, and I think I’m the true victim. And the goal of these retaliatory complaints is really to muddle the narrative, to confuse any investigators and to try to intimidate the victim into dropping their original complaint. In those cases of retaliatory complaints, what I found is that the university didn’t care anymore about due process. When women were in the role of the accused, they faced a lot of consequences. I would actually argue punishment because they didn’t do anything. It can’t be consequences for their actions when all they did was report something someone else did to them. It really is a gender issue. There is a real sense that we should take the side of the man, no matter what he has done, because he is a leader, because he should have male privilege, or you know, whatever it might be. He’s the more important person, and so we should protect the more important person. And sometimes that comes out in really overtly misogynistic, obvious ways, and sometimes it’s a little bit more shielded in something more, called himpathy. So this concept of empathy comes from a philosopher named Kate Mann. And what it means is excessive empathy given to men at the expense of women. What this can look like in practice is somebody saying something like, “Well, you know, sexual abuse is horrible. It ruins the victim’s life. The best we can do is try to make sure it doesn’t ruin two lives instead of one.” Empathizing with the perpetrator Nicole: It’s truly unbelievable if I didn’t have the direct quotes from the administrator saying it. But it’s treated as this righteous thing is this idea of I’m a good person if I can empathize with even the most sort of deplorable people in our society. And it’s not hard to empathize with men in these cases. Our culture trains us to do this. The difficult thing is to empathize with the victim. Anne: Sorry, I can’t even, I can’t, I can’t. No wonder people don’t love me at church because I don’t sympathize with abusive men I’m like, I don’t care about him. And people are like, so offended. Nicole: Yeah, people are offended. Anne: And I’m like, why are you so offended? He’s a rapist. Why do you care about him? She needs a support group for marriage problems or victims. Nicole: I think that’s the place we need to get to, especially in this moment in society where most people are empathizing with the perpetrator. So this framework I was thinking about where everybody’s saying, “Oh, you know, I’m going to empathize with the perpetrator because it’s a hard thing to do.” Something administrators would say is, “Everybody’s going to side with the victim, because we all know rape is wrong. And so she’s going to have everybody in her corner. He doesn’t have anybody in his corner. So I’m going to be the person to show up for him.” And so what we need at the bare minimum is a whole group of people who will show up for the survivor in that same way to recognize the real reality, which is the perpetrator has so many people in his corner. Victims may lose friends, family and have to switch schools Nicole: The victim is the person who’s getting pushed out of her entire social group. One of the things that’s so traumatic about sexual violence is a lot of people lose all their friends, a lot of their family. They might have to switch schools or change jobs, because everybody is focusing on being “fair” to the perpetrator. None of this is fair. If what we’re doing for the perpetrator means the victim has to leave, it’s not fair. When we have an entire society where none of these systems are good at holding perpetrators accountable, it’s hard for people to imagine what that looks like. When we know that we can’t trust a lot of these systems, we have to handle this as individuals and as communities. Because the trauma is going to leave a lifelong impact for the victim. It’s never going away. And so if we say, “Well it’s been five years, why isn’t she over it yet?” That’s just not how it works. And I do think it’s really reasonable to say, “If you perpetrated a sexual assault, The bare minimum of consequences is if you see the victim in the grocery store at your new job. You turn around and you walk out and you go to a different grocery store, you get a different job.” This is very, very reasonable to ask for. Anne: 100 percent,I appreciate this conversation. Nicole, I’m so grateful you’re doing this work. Thank you so much for spending the time to talk about finding a safe support group for marriage problems and victims today. Nicole: Thank you for having me on. This has been great. These are the kinds of conversations that people need. I’m so glad I got to be here today. Anne: Yeah, thank you. Hailey’s Story of reporting on a campus Anne: So now a woman we’re gonna call Haley will actually share her story of reporting on a campus. Hers is specifically related to my faith, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and what she experienced at BYU. But I have heard stories like this from Jewish women, from Catholic women. We see these patterns everywhere. Including in a support group for marriage problems. Welcome Haley. Haley: Hi, thank you. Anne: Before we start, I received my associate degree from BYU Idaho, a million years ago. And when I went there, I loved the honor code. It helped me feel safe. For example, I felt so safe that my roommates weren’t allowed to have men in our apartment after 10:00 PM. Is that what it is? I don’t even remember. Haley: I think they bumped it up to midnight. I felt the same way as you. I chose to come to BYU because I wanted to be in a safer environment and I knew I was signing an honor code. Anne: I appreciate that, and I want to be clear: I don’t know exactly how the honor code operates today. This won’t be an anti–honor code discussion. Instead, we’re examining how institutions implement the honor code—and how that implementation harms victims of abuse in multiple ways. Haley: Like you mentioned, I had two run-ins with the honor code office. One my freshman year and one my senior year. And both times I was left feeling very alone, like I did something horrible. I felt a responsibility to speak out Haley: I felt like that my freshman year, and kept my mouth shut. Because I was embarrassed. I felt totally ashamed alone, so I kept quiet. I felt like I was in a different place when they called me in again. To put me back on probation at the end of my Senior year. I felt like it was my responsibility to speak out against what was going on. I had to wait to speak out until I got my diploma. Initially, I started just because I wanted to see if there was anyone else out there who felt the same way I did. I knew I had a few close friends and a few close family who had been through the honor code office and were treated poorly. So I gathered all our stories together. Really, it was like a support system. Even if five people could see it and feel like they weren’t alone, that would have been good enough for me. I know that you’re doing the same thing, allowing people to share their stories is healing for everyone. There’s something about being anonymous. You feel safe. Being able to tell other people what happened to you, and having other people say, “I am so sorry. I had no idea. I’m here for you.” I think it is healing. Anne: Yeah, it is so healing. I’m so grateful that so many women are willing to share their stories on my podcast. And I’m grateful that you’re here sharing yours today. The first time a perpetrator you had a restraining order against, was the one that turned you into the honor code office. And the second time it was your abusive ex-boyfriend. experiences with the honor code office Anne: Talk about how that felt to have the honor code office used as a weapon by abusive men. Haley: I had moved 2,000 miles away and started school. The first time I got called in, I was told that I was called in by a man from my past who had really hurt me. It was hurtful to sit on my counselor’s couch and tell her this was years behind me. Tell her who this man is, how he made me feel, and how I was scared of him. And how I wanted to put everything that had happened 2,000 miles away in my past behind me. I sat on her couch crying and said, “Please take my side. Please have my back. Here’s how he’s affected my life for years now, and I really need you to have my back. Especially now that I’m sitting here telling you who it was that reported me, I really need your protection.” And she responded and said, “It didn’t matter how I got caught. What mattered was that the Holy Spirit wanted me to get caught.” As a freshman, 18 years old, I was already terrified to be in there. Sitting across from the stranger I didn’t know, asking for help. And she told me it didn’t matter. That just felt sick. It was pretty discouraging. No offers for a victim support. And then the second time with the ex-boyfriend, it was frustrating because I told her, “Look, I have not talked to this kid in over a year. I’m so sorry for what happened. I’ve already dealt with it with my Bishop. I don’t understand why he can come in and jeopardize my future, my education and my diploma.” Blame for the problem: parallels with help for finding a support group for marriage problems Haley: She took his side and told me, “Well, he’s the one that came in, and he came in on his own goodwill, and you didn’t.” It was frustrating too, because he was Elder’s Quorum president at the time. Anne: For our listeners, that is a calling within the church that puts them in charge of the men’s organization. Haley: And she brought that up and wanted to remind me of his position in the church. And she told me that the spirit wasn’t in my home. And so it was harder for both parties to keep the commandments. So an ex-boyfriend turned me in. And having his calling thrown in my face was pretty hurtful. Anne: Wait, so she blamed you. Because apparently the Spirit’s not in your home. I’m being sarcastic here. The reason he acted poorly is all your fault. Haley: Right. I mean, she’s accusing me, asking if I am going to church, what my calling is, and what my relationship is with God. But she wanted to remind me of his position in church, and then put me in my place. And just for all those reasons, it was so hurtful. Anne: That is awful. I’m so sorry. I bet you felt so validated when people started sharing their stories, and women feel that with a good support group for marriage problems as well. Because you ended up reading thousands of other victim stories about the honor code office. What were some themes that you noticed? Theme’s in dealing with the Honor Code Office Haley: I noticed a lot of people who don’t even want to talk to anyone about what happened, which is scary. Another theme is that when they go into that office, they feel like it is their fault. I have had so many people say, my counselor told me that this is because I did this. This is because I wore this. I said this. Anne: If he’s using sexual coercion, getting him out of your apartment by 10:00 PM would have been almost impossible. They might say, “It’s your fault you were raped because you let him stay longer than 10:00 PM.” I mean, there are so many elements with sexual coercion. People really don’t understand. Haley: They did try to separate the Title IX office and the Honor Code office. People are still unfortunately not reporting. Because they’re still afraid that when they go in there, somehow to get looped into the honor code office. And in a lot of cases, it still has. BYU says their policy has changed, but unfortunately, the policy is not what’s practiced. Anne: We see that with bishops too. The policy is: We have no tolerance for abuse in the church. And yet victims say, “My husband is using pornography. He is lying to me. He’s having sex with other women.” They need an understanding of what safety looks like in a support group for marriage problems. In The Proclamation to the Family, people who engage in infidelity and abuse will be held accountable. And instead, a bishop might say, what are you doing wrong? How could you help the situation? Have you heard any stories where the victim had a good experience going to the honor code office? Advice for victims Haley: I do have stories where women went in and said, “Here’s who it is, here’s what he’s done.” And BYU has expelled them. Someone that I’m very close to has a story very similar to this. Even though they expelled the man, she never heard from the honor code office again. And that’s another issue too. If you are a woman and finally do have the courage to go tell BYU what’s going on, and let’s say best case scenario, they do kick this student out of school. I can’t speak for the whole school in general, but a lot of these students are still saying they’re not there for me. For the most part. They just don’t feel like the university in general has their back with this. Anne: So from your own experience and from reading all these stories that you’ve received, what would you want current students who are sexual assault victims to hear? Haley: I would first want them to know that they are not alone. I don’t know how comforting that can be for everyone, but I know at least for the people I’ve talked with, just hearing that this isn’t just happening to them. And there are other women out there who are feeling this way too. And people that you can turn to and trust and share your story with is really important. Like what happens with a good support group for marriage problems. Overwhelming and heartwarming to connect with others in a support group for marriage problems or victims Haley: Also, we do not want these stories to discourage students from turning in these kinds of cases. BYU does have a victim advocate that does a good job, from what I’ve been told at protecting students. I just want every sexual assault victim to know that it is not your fault, and that every time they speak up for what has happened to them, they’re speaking up for all the women behind them. It’s been overwhelming and so heartwarming to see even other female students who will comment and DM me. Like, if this is your story, message me. I will take you out to lunch. I want to talk to you. I’m here for you. If you ever need anyone, send me a message to this Instagram. I just want them to know that there are people out there who care so much, love them, and want them to be on campus.We love the church and the school. We don’t want to leave. Students know what they signed. So we’re not here to fight the standards on campus. We are really just looking for protection for our students within the honor code office. Something has to change. Anne: I’m so grateful for you sharing your story and grateful for anyone willing to have an ongoing layered conversation about these topics and finding a safe support group for marriage problems.ƒ It’s not like we just talk about this issue once and then it goes away, right? It has to be an ongoing layered conversation in order to make meaningful change. Haley: Right. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. It was so good to talk with you. I would love to meet you one day. I really enjoyed our conversations.

Transcribed - Published: 18 February 2025

There’s another word for toxic – abusive. If you’re asking, “Is my husband toxic?” What you’re really asking is, is he emotionally or psychologically abusive. Here’s three things you need to know. What Does “Toxic” Mean? A toxic person uses manipulation, control, lies, and chaos to get what they want. Often, toxic men use emotional or psychological abuse tactics, which can be harder to detect than physical abuse, but is just as damaging. See if he’s using any one of these 19 different types of emotional abuse. If he is, he’s toxic. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out. Here are some red flags of toxic emotional or psychological abuse to watch out for in your marriage: 1. Manipulation Does your husband often twist situations to make you feel like you’re the problem, even when he’s clearly at fault? 2. Control Does he lie to control your perception of him, rather than meet you on equal grounds by telling the truth? 3. Objectification Does he objectify women or exploit women? Questions to Determine If Your Husband Is Toxic If you’re unsure whether your husband’s behavior is toxic (abusive), ask yourself these questions: Does he belittle my emotions, making me feel like I’m “too sensitive” or imagining things? Does he undermine me by saying my friends or family don’t know what they’re talking about when they’re doing something to empower me? When I express concerns, does he block conversation by storming off or shutting me down? Or start attacking me with the exact same “concerns” he’s never brought up before? Does he dismiss or “forget” promises? Has he ever lied to me about things he’s planning or what’s going to happen that he has no intention of ever actually planning or doing. Does he frequently criticize, judge, or blame me instead of taking responsibility for his actions? Do his words or actions make me feel small, unsafe, or like I’m constantly walking on eggshells? If you answered “yes” to any of these, take our free test for emotional abuse that will help you know for sure. What Your Husband’s Toxic Behavior Does to You Living with emotional or psychological abuse can lead to chronic stress, anxiety, depression, and feelings of worthlessness. It can make you question your reality, leading to something called “gaslighting,” where you’re manipulated into doubting your own experiences or memories. Over time, these effects will erode your mental health and self-esteem. Yep, Your Husband Is Toxic. What Can I Do? Acknowledge the Problem The first step is recognizing that your husband’s behavior is abusive or toxic. It’s not “just how he is,” nor is it “your fault.” To learn more about this type of abuse, listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Seek The Right Support Talk to trusted friends or family members about what you’re experiencing. You might also consider attending Group Sessions, like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. These sessions provide a safe environment to share your experience with women who understand. Learn Strategies To Protect Yourself If your husband is toxic, going to couples therapy or talking to a priest might make things worse for you. Toxic men often use tricks to blame you for the problems. They might even say your relationship or marriage is toxic, trying to make it seem like it’s partly your fault. His mean behavior isn’t your fault, even if it hurts you. Before talking to a counselor or Pastor, learn what he’ll do next by enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. That way you’ll be one step ahead. Transcript: Is My Husband Toxic? – When You Discover His Double Life Anne: Jessica is on today’s episode. She holds a bachelor’s degree in media studies and has an in-depth understanding of how the media impacts our lives and shapes our attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors. Jessica is a feminist and activist. She is also on the board of Culture Reframed, a nonprofit organization founded by Dr. Gail Dines, whose mission is to build resilience and resistance to hypersexualized media. Welcome, Jessica. Jessica: Thank you. I’m glad to be here. Anne: Jessica, a lot of women come on my podcast. In fact, it’s the #1 podcast for betrayal trauma. These women share their stories.And when I told my friends and family, they were like, “Calm down. It’s not that big of a deal. Why are you freaking out? He’s such a good guy.” Even feminists say it’s not a big deal when he’s toxic in this way. Is He Toxic If He Lies? Anne: So as an activist, let’s talk about why feminists should be opposed to this type of toxic behavior. Jessica: There’s a lot of confusion and divisiveness around this topic, and a lot of misguided intention and misinformation. I just want to start by reading a quote from Rachel Moran, a trafficking survivor. She was a prostituted woman in her youth. And she is now exited and is an author and activist. She has a quote that says, “There is not now, never has been, and never will be, a feminist case for men to commercialize the bodies of women.” There are two types of feminism, the people who think it’s empowering. And the people like me who think there’s no benefit to the commercialization or commodification of women’s bodies. And the difference in language is that someone like me is a second wave feminist, another term for it is radical feminist. Radical simply means, the Latin root of the word radical is to get to the root of something. So radical feminists look at the overall system of oppression. Which means it’s patriarchy, and how patriarchy oppresses women and children. Radical feminists try to look at the root. The other type of feminists who maybe would argue that this type of toxic behavior is empowering are typically referred to as liberal feminists. Third wave feminists, choice feminists, or even sex positive, which I shudder at. I’ll explain why it’s not positive later, but there’s major disagreement among people in these movements. Focus On Liberation Of All Women Jessica: So the third wave of people who think it’s empowering believe that if a woman makes the choice. No matter what the choice is, it’s empowering. Based on the fact that she’s getting to make the choice. So, they’re looking at individual empowerment for the actual individual. Whereas a second wave of feminism, like myself and Gail Dines. And so many other people in this movement are looking at what’s good for women as a class. So if I decide to be a stripper or go into the trade. In the big picture, it’s not only bad for me as a woman, it’s also bad for my sisters. It’s not good for women as a class, because it puts women at risk. and sends a message to society that women can be bought, sold, and rented by men. So our focus is on the liberation of all women. My goal is to help free all women from oppression under patriarchy. Not just go make my personal decision. For example, I wear makeup, but I don’t call wearing makeup feminist. So this word feminism has really gotten conflated with a lot of other things. It’s changed meaning, and we see that happening with a lot of things over time. Toxic Sexism Hurts Women Jessica: It is co-opted, and people redefine it and turn it into something else. The original definition of feminism speaks to women as a class, not the individual. The word freaks out people, radical because it sounds so extreme. But I like to remind people that the second wave movement was the women’s liberation movement in the 60s and 70s. The women of that movement were second wave. They were very critical about exploitation. Because they understood that when you have an oppressor class. Which is men in a male supremacy or a patriarchy buying and renting the bodies of the oppressed class. You can never have equality. It just doesn’t work. So that’s where we’re coming from with this. I just want to add another word for radical feminist or second wave feminist is abolitionist feminist. In other words, I don’t think the exploitation industry, and I like to call it the exploitation industrial complex, because that’s what it is. It’s a multi billion dollar industry. It’s a big, big industry, and the exploitation industrial complex is just this large thing that we need to look at how it’s affecting women all over. So in other words, if I have a sister who’s getting prostituted or women who are being looked at as objects. How does that translate to me in the real world, in society and culture? How am I going to get looked at? Will I be impacted? Whether I’m in that industry or not? Yeah. Liberation From Misogynistic Ideas Anne: That’s my goal here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It’s to liberate all women from whatever is exploitative and misogynistic ideas and oppression of what they “should” act like. And what it means to be a woman is that we don’t have to accept coercion. We don’t have to accept any form of toxic objectification or anything that we feel uncomfortable about in our relationship. Anytime we stand up for our own rights, we stand up for everyone. If we could hold hands around the world and stop exploitation, it would stop. Because there wouldn’t be anywhere else for it to go. https://youtu.be/fvhCIwaXUz4 Jessica: Right, I think women play a big role in this, like you’re talking about. But I believe that until we address the demand side of trafficking. Women will not be liberated, because we know by the data and experts in this field who study exploitation. That it’s the most, generally speaking, destitute, impoverished, traumatized, vulnerable people on the planet are the ones who end up in prostitution, being trafficked, into inappropriate media. You know, when people argue for choice, like, oh, that’s her choice. We have to step back and define what choice is. Is it her choice to prostitute herself, because she won’t feed her kids? This is a lie that this toxic industry perpetuates. Are those the choices we’re looking at? Are we talking about sheer survival? And why would we argue for that choice? Shouldn’t we give women more opportunities and look at what are the driving forces and what is bringing them there? And why are they saying, “We could just look at what brings people to the exploitation industry and what keeps people from getting out.” The Lie Behind The Harsh Realities Of The Oppresive Trafficking Jessica: It’s horrifying, like if people got educated about this topic and saw what brought women to this. Aside from being trafficked, right, and being coerced and drugged, and all that. What brings them there? And then why they can’t get out. The trauma, the feeling of they have no place to go. And the brokenness when you escape this abusive trade. The needs that you have to get back on your feet emotionally, physically, spiritually, all of it, that’s a lot of heavy lifting. It is a lie. And there are not many services out there. So, many women don’t make it out of the trade alive. They take their own lives, they die of drug addiction or overdose, they are killed, they die of complications from injury, all kinds of health and physical risks. Abolitionist feminists like myself, we don’t believe that this industry can be regulated. The same way an abolitionist in the 1800s in this country would never say, we want to keep slavery, but we want to regulate it. They wanted it gone. Because they knew that this was something built upon oppression. It was built upon racism. It was built upon patriarchy, and so from a second wave feminist point of view. Like myself and Gail and you, we see it the same way. You cannot regulate an industry built on exploitation, inequality and patriarchy. It is a lie that you can make this type of toxic industry safe for the women used in its making. We see it as dehumanizing and objectifying other human beings. And it’s a human rights issue. Public Health Crisis: Toxic Online Material We can talk to regulators, anything you would consider under the public health umbrella. Big Tobacco was a good example and model that we like to reference a lot, because there was a time, not too long ago, where there was a huge divide in the medical field about whether cigarettes were bad for you. And whether they caused lung cancer, and some doctors actually prescribed cigarettes to clients to help ease anxiety and relax them and whatnot. We still have clinicians in the mental health counseling and coaching fields today, who prescribe this type of toxic material for couples. And it’s harmful. The Lie Of The Sex Positive Movement Jessica: We still aren’t there yet in terms of education. And so I think the public health approach is the best approach everybody can get on board with. Everybody can get on board with this, because it’s about looking at the facts. It’s about the data, science, and education. So that people can make informed decisions, not just take this away, and the person seeks it underground or whatever. This is now an informed decision about your health and your relationships, which equates to your health because we know how important relationships are to health. Anne: Exactly. So with that, let’s actually talk about the this movement. We had a guest on one of our episodes talking about being positive, which is so cool right now. And to be a progressive, like educated person. If you said I’m not then everyone would give you a weird look. Can you talk about how this toxic material is NOT positive, and why? Jessica: Yeah, there are so many reasons it’s not. I’ll start with first and foremost, it ruins people’s intimate lives. So that’s ironic, that the more a man uses this toxic material the less intimacy they have with a real life. You’ve heard of inappropriate media induced erectile dysfunction. This is a new phenomenon we’re seeing since the explosion of. Young men report erectile dysfunction that can’t be explained by any other variable. The Lie That Toxic Online Material Isn’t Harmful Jessica: They’re otherwise healthy men who don’t have a physical reason for having erectile dysfunction. So it’s keeping people from actually connecting. So there’s that, number one. Number two, it’s a product that’s scripted, not creative, very formulaic and bottom line driven. It’s about hooking the consumer and taking away their agency. If you want to talk about choice, agency, and empowerment, it’s the absolute opposite. They’re hijacking our own ability to have authentic intimacy. So the template, instead of authoring my own intimacy, my own sexuality. Which is the most private, personal thing in my life. Now it’s co-opted by this multi-billion dollar industry, designed to change my template. It takes people’s power away, and you hear this from many recovering people. That once they stop using and stop using for awhile, they get their sense of agency back. And they start to have their relationship back, and they can co-create an intimate relationship with their partner. I came up with this quote because it’s one of the big arguments in the third wave movement. It’s none of your business what people are doing in the privacy of their bedrooms. And I like to respond by saying, “If it’s none of anybody’s business, what people are doing in their own bedrooms. Why have we made it the business of the this toxic industry to the tune of multi-billions of dollars?” The Lie Of The Sex Positive Movement Jessica: Yes. So they have gone from saying, “It’s nobody’s business, what I do”, to “I’ve handed it over to a big business.” And now what happens in the bedroom is directly or indirectly run by this multi-billion dollar industry. That, frankly, has nobody’s best interest in mind. Not only is it addictive, but we know it’s horrifically, and this speaks to the feminist piece and the human rights piece. It’s horrifically misogynist, violent and brutal towards women. There’s tons of data on this. I don’t know how anybody could defend the content online today with any kind of positive or feminist lens. Or even defend it as a humanist. Somebody who believes in human decency. It’s a type of hate speech in my opinion. Why is this protected when they’re showing so much hate? Anne, think about this. If you were to show any other group of people of an oppressor class, like white people. And you had a multi-billion dollar media industry that shows white people abusing a subjugated group of people. Let’s say an Asian group or Black group or another oppressed or subjugated group of people. There would be public outcries. This would not be okay. But because it’s women, and because you’re sexualizing the violence and eroticizing the aggression, now it’s okay. But if you take it, all you see is violence, torture, and brutality. And why are we okay with that? It’s Violent Hate Speech Jessica: Especially because we live in a worldwide global culture, we have a pandemic of abuse and violence against women. It’s a lie that this toxic material is just fantasy, it’s not. We know the numbers with the Me Too movement, one in three. Every day, I read another article or more statistics about how violence against women is going up. Rape and campus rape is a pandemic. People can’t even keep up with it. These fantasies that men masturbating to are real life nightmares for real women. And something is really, really wrong with that. To have this group of people, women, suffering at the hands of men with violence. And then make movies about it for entertainment and men to masturbate to. The problem with the third wave liberal positive movement is they are not connecting the dots. It’s a lie that you can have it both ways. You cannot say we believe women should be free of violence, exploitation, and objectification when you support an industry based on all those things. Anne: I think they are just purposefully ignoring it. Because every time you try to address it with someone in that camp, they just talk in circles. There’s no resolution, and they don’t make any sense. You can say this isn’t logical, but they won’t be pinned down because they don’t want to give up this toxic material. They want to say these abusers can be a good person while engaging in this stuff. If Your Husband is Toxic, He Uses People Jessica: No, that’s just it. There’s no real argument. There’s no data. It’s a thinly veiled debate. I don’t get far in those, because I’ll start asking real questions and I don’t get answers. I just get, “It’s my choice. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it.” You know, all the things that you could do to dismiss a public health crisis. Like, if you don’t like cigarettes, don’t smoke them. Then you start zooming out and going, wait, now it’s affecting everybody. It’s affecting children, our healthcare system, and our taxes. I mean, the list goes on and on. Yeah, well, and not to mention, that cigarette in this scenario is a person. Correct, and that is a beautiful segue to the differentiation between addiction and every other kind of addiction. Is that the human being, in many cases women, the substance being abused. And there is a big difference when you use a person as a substance, versus a drink, a drug, or a cigarette. So this is another reason why it’s even more serious and needs to be looked at as a human rights issue. I’ll also copy down another one of my favorite quotes. It’s by Jean Kilbourne. She did a series called Killing Us Softly, and it was about how women are portrayed in advertising. It’s brilliant, if you can ever get your hands on it. Objectification Of Women Is Toxic Jessica: Even if you say, “It’s my choice to strip, or it’s my choice to do this, or it’s okay for women to step out and objectify.” What we have to remember is that objectification is dangerous, and there are many statistics on this. There’s a great organization out of Australia called Collective Shout that researches how objectification hurts. Not only the person being objectified, but also the person doing the objectifying. And it leads to violence and harm. It changes the way we interact, the way we connect, and the way we view others and ourselves. It takes away our empathy, because if the person is now an object, you are really distanced from that person now. And you lose empathy. Anne: Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we are the largest organization in the world for wives of toxic husbands. So many organizations are fighting exploitation or trafficking. We view ourselves as the in-home victims of these types of abusers. Define Your Boundaries To Protect Yourself From His Toxic Behavior Anne: And they should set that as a human rights boundary and also as a self respect boundary, right? Like, I will not allow myself to be abused like this in my own home. I want to talk about coercion for a bit. So it is our contention here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery that if a man tries to talk a woman into accepting his toxic behavior. When she doesn’t want it, and he hides it from her, that it is a form of coercion. And he has not received her consent because he’s not giving her the full information. And while he’s lying to her about his toxic behavior, he’s withholding her ability to give consent. Jessica: I 100 percent agree with both of those. It’s common. The user tries to get around it by manipulation. The part about trying to talk your partner into accepting something that doesn’t feel good to them. And is coming between you is definitely coercion and abusive. Because it could lead you to feel like, if I don’t do this, he’s not happy. And he will leave me. My authentic self is not good enough. And also what’s happening is there’s a control issue. He’s controlling the narrative in the relationship. So, there’s no co-creative relationship. Between two people who come together and be playful and creative, and decide what feels good to both of them. The Impact of Toxic Secrecy Jessica: What’s mutually pleasurable. And so this is somebody who’s saying, I want this for me, even though you’ve already stated you’re not comfortable with this. So trying to talk somebody into what their limitations and boundaries are is a type of abuse. And coercion, which those go hand in hand, and as far as hiding it goes. I mean, you guys know this more than anybody, because you deal with betrayal trauma, which has to do with secrecy. And lying and dishonesty will break a person and ruin relationships. Because if my husband lied to me about stopping off from work and getting a piece of cake because he’s on a diet. And he just fell off the wagon and got a piece of cake, and he didn’t tell me about it. Or he lied to me, yeah, lying’s not good. It makes you question people, it erodes trust, it’s not a good thing. He lied about something against my values, it’s something that I’ve set a boundary on. Something that has to do with masturbating to images of other women. He lied about seeking stimulus outside of our monogamous relationship. Assuming we’ve agreed on a monogamous committed relationship. Then, that is a different kind of betrayal. Anne: Well, it’s also abusive. This lack of consent, in saying, I know you want a monogamous relationship with no infidelity, so he lied to you. That is coercive in and of itself, and manipulative. If He Lied About ANYTHING, It’s Toxic To You Anne: If he lied, you’re not giving consent. The information she needs to make the right decision and give her consent. Jessica: 100 percent agree that if he lied, that takes away her consent. And she is engaging in a relationship with somebody who she does not have all the information Anne: That she wants. She said flat out, “I don’t want this.” And so he lied and hides it from her. I think this is extremely serious, and people are not taking it seriously. And it is an abuse. People dismiss it or say, Oh, well, you know, he doesn’t need to tell her. And I’m thinking, no. You don’t realize this represents abuse. And it represents abuse in every case where he’s controlling the narrative. Like you said, and not willing to give her all the information she needs to give her consent. It’s a serious, serious abuse issue. Jessica: It is an abuse issue. And I a hundred percent agree. It is. It’s taking away that person’s right to consent, because they don’t have all the information to give informed, enthusiastic consent to their partner. And if women knew their partner was masturbating to even more toxic material, like child abuse material, it’s so traumatizing. If I Asked And He Lied, Is That Abuse? Jessica: If we knew that our partner’s template was that, that’s what turned them on. And that’s what they were masturbating to. We should have every right to know that, so that we could say I’m not compatible with that person. I don’t want to have intimacy with somebody who is turned on by that for many reasons. One is not compatible because this is now crossing over into core values. I don’t believe in violence against women, so I don’t want to be with somebody who’s masturbating to it. We have to get straight about when we meet somebody or when we’re with our partner about what our core values are in general. And also what our core values are around it and what is our compatibility. The bottom line is there’s no compatibility there. When I Asked If He Was Into Toxic Material, He Lied Anne: But the tricky part is emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. It’s the manipulation and lying that happens. Jessica: Yeah, that’s a good point. There are so many variables, but I think every woman wanting a monogamous, intimate healthy relationship will not want someone who uses toxic material. And to your point, you can do and say all the right things and still be betrayed. We can’t control everything anyone does, especially something this covert, secretive, and stealthy. But we can be clear with ourselves about our boundaries, about our values. And then we can communicate those to our partner or prospective partner in the best way possible. And so that’s to empower the listener on this podcast to say, “Okay, I’m going to focus on what I can do.” Anne: Yeah. And when you say they could be betrayed, I want listeners to know they could be betrayed during that conversation. They could be lied to and groomed during that conversation. For example, when my ex started dating, he sometimes dated my friend’s friends. So during that time, I kept hearing stuff. And I didn’t interject myself into the situation, but then I would get these texts. And I got a text from a friend. She said, “Hey, I’m skiing today, with a friend, and she’s dating your ex.” Somebody Could Say All The Right Things & Still Be Lying Anne: He told her “everything” and said, “Okay, if you never want to see me again, that’s fine.” She thought it was the most amazing conversation. She was like, wow, he’s so open. But when I heard what he told her, it’s not even close to everything. It’s not even close. Some of it’s not true, he lied. So the interesting thing is she thought she had this amazing, like heart to heart. Where he told her everything, and she knows about him, and she felt this is a good guy. But that’s not what it was. So that’s what I want to caution people. If their intent is to hide that they use toxic material, you’d never know. And that conversation is abusive in and of itself. Jessica: And this is such a good point, and why this conversation we’re having is so important. Like, for example, somebody could say all the right things and be lying. And so as a sisterhood, as women who are all affected by this issue, we need to share red flags. Like, what are the behaviors to watch for? What are the changes to watch for? Because unfortunately, we have to play detective. And it’s not to say that we need to project onto our partners or prospective partners, or blaming, shaming and accusing them. However, this is the reality we live in. Red Flags and Toxic Behavioral Changes Jessica: For example, I was on a relationship Facebook group the other day, and this one woman said, my, I think it was husband or boyfriend, of long term stopped talking to me. Now when they have intimacy, he won’t kiss her. And she can’t figure out why, and it’s not a bad breath issue, and all this stuff. I mean, she’s like racking her brain trying to figure out why she’s no longer being kissed. And I have the inside scoop on that, because this is what I do for a living. So I brought that up and she said, “You know what did cross my mind? And I asked him, and he denied it.” Okay. So again, you have that denial, but at some point she’s going to need a reason why he’s not kissing her. Anne: I actually disagree. There’s no point at which she needs an answer. If that is not how she wants the relationship to be, she just needs to set a boundary. Because there’s no way to force an answer out of him. The Words Don’t Matter, Watch What He Does Anne: If he refuses to tell her and blames it on a psychological issue. She might think, “Oh, okay, it’s due to this psychological issue.” Jessica: She would never know. I totally see your point. And the bottom line is, to your point, to take it even further. If that behavior doesn’t change, then that’s the real issue. Anne: She doesn’t need to say anything. She can just think in her mind and make a decision. If he’s not going to kiss me, I’m not gonna have intimacy with him. Jessica: Yeah, it doesn’t feel good to me. It doesn’t feel safe, yeah. Anne: We try to encourage people at Betrayal Trauma Recovery not to look for reasons. Because you will never find them, or if you find it, it might be a fake reason. Focus on the behavior that makes you feel unsafe, the non kissing, and set a boundary around that. And that way you’re always on the right track. Jessica: That’s a good point. I agree. If you don’t feel safe in a relationship, emotionally, physically and spiritually, You can’t have intimacy. Those two things cannot coexist. You cannot feel unsafe and also be close to somebody, and have bonding, intimacy, trust and all that. So there’s been this idea that at all costs, you make the relationship work. You are in a relationship, and you stick it out. Now there’s new data that says, your health, psychological health, emotional health, physical health, all that is better being a single person or being alone, and not being constantly in that state of nervous system arousal. Watching your back, wondering, questioning, because that wreaks havoc on the nervous system. Boundaries Are Actions, Not Statements Anne: So I want the listeners to know that too. I think there are many people out there, especially women, thinking I have to make this work or stay in this because the alternative is worse. And the alternative is sometimes way, way better. I always say don’t worry whether you want to be in the relationship, if you set boundaries around the behavior. This is why I wrote The Living Free Workshop. It teaches you how to set small boundaries and watch from a safe distance. So, for example, if you don’t want to kiss and if I don’t feel safe, I’m not having it with you. The relationship will take care of itself. He will be like, oh, well, I don’t want to date you anymore. So you don’t have to be like, well, if he doesn’t start using a spoon properly, then I will break up with him, right? You could say, “Well, if he’s not going to use a spoon properly, I don’t even have to say anything to him. But I’m going to take my food and actually go in the other room.” When He Lied To Get What He Wanted The cool thing is, you don’t even have to tell him. You don’t have to say, “If you put your elbow in my face, I’m going to leave.” A boundary isn’t something you say. It’s the action you take. When you talk, when you say, “Hey, I don’t like it when you put your elbow in my face.” That’s just a statement. It’s not a boundary. You don’t have to only make boundaries around deal breakers. Jessica: Absolutely. Anne: You can make boundaries around any type of behavior that you’re like, meh, this is not working for me. Jessica: Exactly. Anne: That’s my thought about it, but I don’t know how you feel. Your Partner’s Job: To Create Safety Jessica: You’re spot on, it’s good to get to know the person, take it slow. But when you start to feel like it’s going somewhere romantically, I do think it’s good to start talking about what are your views on this kind of thing? Anne: A note here really quick. I just want to say Jessica is agnostic, spiritual, but I’m going to put words in your mouth here. You are not of the type that’s like no contact before marriage. So if you’re dating someone and you feel like, okay, this is going somewhere. I think I’m ready to have intimacy with this person. Marriage is not a boundary for you. Is that accurate? Jessica: That’s accurate. Anne: Your perspective will be different than mine, because mine’s going to be, what are the things I need to know before I have a relationship with this person? Jessica: Right, right, absolutely. This is why there is no formula, right? Anne: Exactly. So when I decide, okay, do I not only want to have intimacy with this person, which would be maybe a decision about a few things? I’m thinking, do I want to marry them and ergo have intimacy with them? Jessica: Right? Are they marriage material? Yeah, that’s what you’re thinking. There’s obviously a wide spectrum, and for me, it’s love, safety, and respect. I’m not loose or, or, uh, boundary-less or even, what’s the word? Dare I say liberal? I’m not liberal when it comes to that. Can Women Figure Out If He Is Lying Early On? Jessica: I think it has meaning, and I think it’s bonding, and I think people need to be more responsible. It’s a big deal. And there’s data that supports that, what it does in our brain and how we feel bonded through that. And betrayed when that connection is broken. So whether you’re waiting for marriage or waiting to get to know the person and have these other values addressed, it’s important, I think, just to bring it up in a way that’s about you. And of course, I’m going to say it right away, and in a way that is helpful for me, because then if the person sticks around, great. If they don’t, well, that helps me weed them out. Whether it’s not just romantic partners, but friends, colleagues, I mean, it goes on and on. Anne: The interesting thing about dating and marriage is that even though he’s toxic, you might not know until years later. When Should Women Ask Her Boyfriend About Toxic Material? Anne: It’s not like smoking. It’s not like meth, I mean, people can hide their drug addiction. But after a while, you’d be like, this person doesn’t have any teeth, you know? You can see it. Or maybe with alcoholism, you can smell it on them or something. But if he’s using toxic material, there’s no tell. Jessica: It’s true, you may never know, and this is why you have to pay attention to behavior and what is or isn’t working for you. So if you’re in a relationship, let’s say you’re dating somebody and talk about, what do you want out of a relationship? And they say, I want monogamy. And you say, okay, good. We’re on the same page there. We both want monogamy. These are things that obviously need to be discussed, right? So we’re both in it with one person, blah, blah, blah. And then you can even take that conversation further by saying, let’s define monogamy in this digital age we live in. Well, for me, monogamy means my partner is not seeking stimulus outside the relationship with me. And that’s a broad statement that encompasses a lot. So not seeking stimulus outside the relationship. That means not going to strip clubs. That means, you know, not even going to somebody’s Instagram page and looking at their bikini pictures seeking stimulus. We Can’t Control Others’ Toxic Behavior, But We CAN Set Boundaries And Honor Our Values Jessica: Now it’s not to say, I mean, obviously we live in a misogynistic, objectified world. Men will see images of women everywhere. That’s uncomfortable for most women, but it’s the reality. I mean, that’s like the polluted air we breathe, right? You can’t avoid it. It’s just pollution. What you want, though, is the person’s commitment to not seeking it out, and also to paying attention to you. And the relationship he has with you. Really focusing that energy on you, on your monogamous relationship, because that’s what defines monogamy, is that you’re having intimacy with one person. And it might not be a lifetime of a monogamy, but at that time it’s that person. You know, five years from now, you might divorce, and then it becomes a different person. But it’s still monogamy, because it’s one person. So I would say as a guideline to define the kind of relationship you want, and then define what monogamy means for you. When you say to somebody point blank, objectifying women has the same effect on me as a man cheating on me. That’s a solid, clear statement. So then if he decides to go home that night and use toxic material, he is willingly doing the thing you said is cheating. Anne: And I think going even further than that, saying this is what I see as monogamy, this is how I define it. And if I ask him, and he lies about it, hides it from me, or manipulates me to make me think that’s not happening. That is coercion. That is abuse. Make YOUR Health & YOUR Safety The Priority Anne: You would be doing that. And I do not want to be abused. When I was young, my mom told me about rape, and she said, “If anyone is raping you, I want you to look them in the eye. And I want you to strongly and forcefully say this is rape and I will prosecute.” She had me repeat that several times, and we role played a little bit, and that’s what she wanted me to say. And I want women to say that too. This is what coercion is, and I will be very hurt and it will be abuse. So if I find out, that’s what you would have done to me. Jessica: Calling it like it is is very important. Women find themselves in situations, as you know, there’s a lot of gaslighting and manipulation going on, so we might sense that. Like we know something’s wrong, the hair on the back of our neck stands up. Just something’s off. And if you don’t have proof that person might just be like, that’s not happening. This is all in your head. What are you gauging this on? Anne: I want to ask you something. Cultural and Religious Perspectives on Toxic Material Anne: So in my culture, where I live no one has ever set me up with, nor is anyone who is agnostic asking me out. I would go, but I’m just saying nobody is. So all the people I am in contact with are religious. From my point of view, if I talk to them, they’re always going to say, of course not. Always. I’m never going to get the response, like, oh, I do use that stuff. I’m never going to get that response. I might get a, I used it in the past, but now I know it’s bad and I don’t anymore. But I’m like, I don’t believe any of you guys. For you, where you’re dating people who may not be religious. When you bring this up, how do they react? Does it go well? Does it go weird? Can you talk about some personal examples you have? Jessica: Most of the people I have dated have been not religious. 99. 9 % of the time when I talk about my stance on the industry in general. Most non-religious people are taken aback. They want to know why. “What is the problem? What’s the deal? Isn’t it about choice and personal empowerment?” And if a woman decides, they usually try to flip the script to this whole choice argument. “If you’re really a feminist or care about women, you’re going to let them do what they want. Philosophical Debates About What Causes Men To Be Toxic Anne: So are they arguing with you on that point? Jessica: So in my dating history, the person says he’s on board with respecting the boundary. So that’s first and foremost, like, yeah, okay. I can do that with. I’m on board with respecting that boundary. Okay, great. However, there is a lot historically, a lot of arguing about the topic. So my boundary in the relationship is set. Cause I’m really black and white about it. It’s a deal breaker for me. And so when I have that conversation about, “Hey, we’re going further in the relationship. I want to be committed. Let’s be monogamous. What are your deal breakers? What are your non negotiable?” And we have that conversation, and he shares with me, and I share with him what those are. And they could be the same or different depending. There’s usually some sort of philosophical debate or argument. And you’re that black and white about that issue. You must be religious, you must be conservative. There’s like all this stuff tied to it. And then there’s this whole thing about prudishness and repression, and there’s this idea from many non-religious people that if you take a firm stance about this topic, you must be coming from a pious or religious perspective. Define Your Relationship Boundaries Anne: So you have that philosophical argument, but how does it go in the actual relationship? Does it end up falling apart because he doesn’t believe you, or because he’s lied, or what happens next? Jessica: There is a lot of explanation and a lot of what I would call psycho-education. I’ve had to psycho-educate every man I’ve ever been close to or been with romantically, about people. Also about objectification of women and what it does to relationships. Also what it does to a person’s brain. And honestly, I don’t mind having the conversation if the tone of the conversation is inquiry, listening, learning, and wanting to be a better person. But if it’s a debate, I usually shut that down. I’ll say my piece, and then I’ll be like, I’m not interested in debating this with you. I happen to have a lot of expertise in this area. I have the data. Anne: With the debate guys, do you end up having a relationship with them? Jessica: I have ended up having a relationship with, after the debates have gone away. Anne: So after you’ve said, hey, I’m not debating with you anymore. Jessica: Not that quick, but it’s almost like coming from different worldviews. So, I’m coming at it with this firm, I have all this information. Anne: I understand. What I’m looking for is, what’s the end result? Find Clarity Through Boundaries Jessica: The end result is that I end up with somebody who’s on board with learning about it. I hate to use this word, but converting. Basically, if somebody listens to what I have to say, with an open mind and an open heart, and trust me. They’re not gonna think it’s okay anymore. And if they did, it wouldn’t work out. Like, they wouldn’t want to be with me, and I wouldn’t want to be with them. So, once that has been put out there, and I try to do it in a way that’s educational. Because this is the culture we live in, most men have absolutely no idea. Anne: So you have been dating the same person for years and he has been converted? Jessica: Yes, absolutely. He was coming at it from more of this. “Well, shouldn’t people be free to do what they want to do and what feels good to them?” He was also coming at it from an open-minded place. If anybody’s gonna fall for me and my belief system, I’m very counterculture on this topic. As you know. I know you are too for somebody to stick around, and someone with this counterculture perspective says a lot about them as a person anyway. If I Ask About Toxic Behavior And He Lies – It’s Abusive Jessica: He obviously had to get on board for it to work. Anne: That’s why I think the whole religious situation is irking me. I’m so irked because I am very religious. At this point. I’m like, I don’t care if the person I’m dating is religious or not. I am, and the reason I feel like that, currently. So I mean, maybe when it comes down to it, because I don’t drink, for example. I don’t watch rated R movies. So maybe when it came down to it, just the way my lifestyle is, it wouldn’t work, you know? I don’t know. But, I would much rather have somebody like that. Than someone who purports to be like, no, of course I don’t like it, because everyone in our culture doesn’t like it, and everyone in our culture is supposed to be monogamous. That is like the worst. And that is happening throughout the religious culture, like exponential levels, the lying and the manipulation and stuff. It is so bad. And it is annoying. Not just bad and annoying. It’s coercion. It is abuse. Jessica: It is abuse. It’s so subverted and underground, like at least if you’re talking to somebody who’s non religious or interested in exploring the topic to get to that place, but if you say and believe it’s wrong and you’re doing it anyway. Anne: Where do you go from there? Jessica: Where do you get? I believe slavery is wrong, but I’m gonna have a slave. Like where do you go from there? Yeah. Anne: Exactly. The Impact Of Toxic Material On Templates Anne: Let’s talk about the manipulate your template issue. Because I was talking with a friend yesterday, and she said, “You know what you don’t explicitly ever say on the podcast?” And I was like, “what?” She said, “You don’t explicitly say that many abuses women suffer in their homes, like the names being called or the way they’re being treated, are actually what the men are viewing with this type of toxic material. She doesn’t know that the way he’s treating her comes from what he watched. Because she’s not watching it, she doesn’t know that these behaviors may have come from there. I think it’s important to realize that, and this is exactly what you said, that what you are watching is altering your template. It’s altering what you are attracted to. And we’ve got that happening a lot, where men are no longer attracted to their extremely attractive wives or girlfriends. It’s not hard to see what his lack of intimacy does to a woman. Because their template is being edited or altered by unrealistic depictions of women. Jessica: It’s being altered by unrealistic depictions as well as self stimulation. The arousal and the orgasm that happens when they’re viewing this takes it further. Cultural Conditioning & Intimacy Scenarios Jessica:I mean, we’re all conditioned. I have cultural conditioning around what I think is attractive and unattractive for myself as a woman. Society conditioned me to be hairless, wax my legs, and all that. So we all experience cultural conditioning around these things. We’re always comparing things to what we see in the media and everything else. The idea, obviously, is to go beyond the superficial when you meet somebody. And actually have true intimacy, which is beyond hairy legs or non hairy legs, and that’s the work all couples need to do. It is finding intimacy that goes beyond what the media has been feeding us. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t be masturbating to these images, and now we’re not just talking about unrealistic images. We’re talking about violent degrading, you know hateful types of scenarios. And images and this chemical concoction that happens in the brain, and what that does neurologically to the brain. There’s no argument for a net benefit for this type of toxic material. Just for the record, I oppose self stimulation in a relationship with two willing partners who want to have it. If one person goes off in private or in secret to masturbate, that raises a big question mark. I’d rather have my partner say, “I’m not okay with that, and this isn’t going to work,” than agree to it and then resent me for it. He Lied About Something I Cared Deeply About Anne: And I think that is actually the biggest problem right now. Because like with me, I said, “This is what I want. I want this type of monogamous relationship. Self stimulation is not okay with me like ever. That’s my thing. Never, it’s never okay. These are my boundaries.” And he said, “Absolutely, absolutely”. So when he lied and said he didn’t do any of it. So that is the like scariest part of it. And that’s where abuse, manipulation, lying and coercion comes in. Because that was so abusive. But let’s pretend like we marry, and a month in he’s like, you know what? I thought I didn’t want to, but I actually do, and I’ve been doing it, so you said that was a boundary. And I would have been like, oh, that stinks. But the thing was, then he acted like he wanted to change. Critical Analysis of Values Anne: Part of the problem is, I don’t think, at least in the religious community, men know that they’re supposed to act a certain way, and so they act like that. But I don’t think they’ve really come to grips with I don’t act according to my values. I’m not doing the things that I’m supposed to do. And I need to be honest about that. They just kind of like go with the flow and say what they’re supposed to say. And that’s what’s irking me. Jessica: I think you bring up a really good point about what I would call critical analysis. It’s important for people to develop these values through critical analysis, rather than simply accepting them as how they’re supposed to be. Even non-religious people obviously hold a sense of morality, ethics, and an understanding of right and wrong. I, as a non-religious person, developed this through a lot of critical analysis. You have every right to feel annoyed and upset when you see this trend in this population. Anne: Jessica is amazing. I appreciate her perspective, because at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we are interfaith, but also inter-paradigm. So people who have no faith or people of whatever paradigm are welcome here. And so I always love having a different perspective. So thank you. Jessica, thank you so much for coming on today’s episode. Jessica: Thank you so much, Anne. It’s nice to have the support and having these difficult conversations. Thanks for having me.

Transcribed - Published: 21 January 2025

You deserve emotional safety no matter what anyone says. Here's what you need to know.

Transcribed - Published: 20 January 2025

What’s the difference between emotional abuse and normal conflict? I’ll dive into that below. When we’re figuring out the difference between emotional abuse vs normal conflict, it’s important to focus on emotional safety either way. Step one would be to take an emotional abuse test to see if what you’re experiencing is emotional abuse. Understanding Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict Emotional Abuse: Emotional abuse is manipulating someone’s emotions to exploit them. Because it’s aim is exploitation, it causes significant damage to the victim’s sense of self. Normal Conflict: Normal conflicts are an inevitable part of any relationship. These types of benign conflicts are caused by differences in opinions, values, or expectations, but there’s no exploitation involved. Normal conflicts happen with two healthy people who care about each other and want the best for each other. When a husband uses online explicit material or cheats on his wife, it’s a form of emotional abuse that deeply affects her. Normal conflicts don’t cause infidelty, it’s emotional abuse. What Is Emotional Safety Many women in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community share stories of feeling alone—when friends dismiss their accounts of emotional abuse. Sometimes clergy or therapists discount emotional abuse victims, especially when their emotionally abusive husband lies to the clergy or therapist about what’s going on. In many religious communities, marriage is more important than a person’s feelings or emotional safety. Which doesn’t make sense, since the point of marriage is emotional safety. This type of abuse violates the essence of marriage. Choosing safety doesn’t mean ending your marriage. Your husband’s decision to be emotionally abusive has already broken that trust. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we emphasize that safety encompasses several aspects of life: Physical Safety: Make sure you meet basic needs like shelter, food, and clothing. Removing yourself from immediate emotional threats. Emotional and Psychological Safety: Finding an environment where you can express yourself without fear of judgment or retaliation. Spiritual Safety: Your beliefs are respected and not used against you. Financial Safety: Gaining control over your financial resources and decisions. Sexual Safety: Having autonomy over your own body and choices. Steps To Begin Your Journey: Separate Yourself from Harm: Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop to learn what type of abuse you’re dealing with (or even if he’s actually abusive), and then what strategies to use to keep yourself emotionally safe. Surround Yourself with Support: Connect with support groups or communities like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions where you can share your story without judgment. Practice Self-Care: Focus on basic needs like nutrition, hydration, and sleep to maintain your physical health. Educate Yourself About Abuse: Understanding abuse dynamics can empower you and provide clarity on your situation. Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Transcript: How to Tell Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict Anne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. This is Anne. I’m so excited to have Natalie on today’s episode. She’s the author of All the Scary Little Gods, and I’m so excited to have her on today. Welcome, Natalie. Natalie: Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here. Anne: You’re amazing. I’ve always appreciated your work. Especially all the interesting and fascinating deconstruction that you do with spiritual abuse. I love it. You’re so smart. And it’s just, it’s fun to have you here. Let’s start by talking about your new book, All the Scary Little Gods. Natalie: I wanted to tell my story. Because I wanted to help women stuck in fundamentalist programming. Who maybe weren’t able to read. Or had the capacity and interest in reading a scholarly type or non-fiction book about deprogramming. In fact, that might even scare them off a little bit. But they might want to read a story about it. So, instead of telling people how to walk this journey, you know, do step one, two, and three. I wanted to show them what a potential journey of deprogramming and deconstructing might look like. Especially for women who weren’t ready to give up their faith. But wanted to figure out how their faith aligned with goodness and love and their core values. I think it was like the English teacher in me saying, show, don’t tell. Anne: I loved that it felt so honest, you are expressing that inner dialogue. Helping women know you’re not crazy. Everybody thinks these things. Discussing All Types of Emotional Abuse Natalie: Yes, exactly. The first part I wrote from my younger self. So you kind of hear about my childhood from that perspective. Fortunately, I kept journals. And when I read through them, I heard the arguments inside of me. Part of me would argue in my journal and think one way, and then another part of me would think a different way. And so I just started listening to those parts of me and figuring out, like, what were their concerns? I had many different kinds of concerns that were almost contradictory in many ways. I think a lot of us do. Many of us have conflicting thoughts inside of us. And then we think, am I schizophrenic? Am I crazy? What is my problem? Why do I know one thing with my head? But then on the other hand, I keep making these other decisions over here, and I can’t seem to get any traction in my life. Anne: Can you talk about those concepts of deprogramming? The effects of spiritual abuse are so damaging how did you figure out for yourself if faith is right for you? Deprogramming & Deconstructing Faith Natalie: I feel like it’s a very individual process. If I said, Oh, well, my path led me down this road, and I kept my Christian faith. And so therefore, that’s the right way. Then all I’m doing is repeating what I grew up with. So I think giving yourself freedom to sift through the beliefs you maybe have. And decide which ones have served you in your life and have served the people around you. And actually align with what you choose to believe about a creator God. Or however you want to describe that God and which ones don’t. Because for me, I kind of boiled it down to love. And when I looked at the life of Jesus Christ and what he represented, I decided he represented love and was a deconstructionist. So when we deconstruct, I feel like we’re walking in the footsteps of Jesus, whether we align ourselves with him or not. That’s what we’re doing. I decided that love was the bottom line for me. What about my faith was actually expansive or expanding love in my own life for myself first. Then for my family, and then for those around me into the world, and what things were actually fostering more oppression, more abuse, more control and power over systems. I realized that much of what I believed actually contradicted love. So I removed things from my life and focused on emotional abuse vs normal conflict. I also opened myself up to my children choosing their own paths, with some deciding to completely walk away from their faith. The Concept Of Love In Faith Natalie: I don’t have any fear about that anymore, like I used to. But again, it’s because of what I now believe about God. I was scared of God before. Because the God I worshiped was very little and scary. I bowed down, worshiped, placated and catered to many other little scary gods in my life. That sort of represented that scary God. I needed to get rid of that kind of thinking to truly love myself and other people. And honestly, in order to really love God. I don’t think that when we’re afraid of something, we can enter intimacy and love for that other person. Anne: Or God, right? Absolutely agreed. https://youtu.be/AE3vGT6blBg Natalie: And it’s a way of looking at ourselves that recognizes that we each have different parts inside of us. And those parts have their own beliefs or programming based on our life experiences. Some parts try to prevent pain in our lives by working hard to manage the circumstances. And the people in our lives or to manage us. They might think, for example, that if only we could make people like us or do what we need them to do for us, then we would be happy and avoid pain. Now there are other parts of us that will spring into action if our other parts are unsuccessful in preventing that pain. What they don’t understand is that they want to use some methods to help us get that immediate relief. And learn how tell the difference between emotional abuse and normal conflict. The Bus Analogy To Heal From Emotional Abuse Natalie: When I tried to explain this to my children, I had some teenagers wanting to understand this, and I gave them this analogy of a bus. If you can imagine you are the driver of the bus, and you’re driving your bus through life, wherever you want to go. As the driver of our bus, this is my belief. Our creator didn’t put us in charge of anyone else’s bus, just our own. He didn’t put anyone else in charge of our bus, just us. We are the driver connected and at one with our creator. Though some of us may not know that. The other parts of us are on the bus. I imagined my other parts with all their ideas and thoughts. And about how to manage my life to prevent pain sitting on one side of my bus. Then on the other side of my bus were all my parts ready to fly into action when I felt a negative emotion. Way in the backseat of the bus are younger versions of us hiding and maybe curled up in the fetal position. And these young parts of us carry all our pain, past trauma, and confusion. Losing a friend in an accident. Growing up in poverty, or in an overly strict home. Or having a parent with a mental health issue or substance abuse issue. Or anything else that would have caused us harm or emotional pain. Listening To My Own Beliefs & Inner Thoughts Natalie: Sometimes, the parts on our bus disagree about what is the best course of action. They can judge each other. They fight. I used to think there was something wrong with me. Because I had all these opposing thoughts. I couldn’t figure out which ones I should obey. I kind of saw my inner voices, as just more of the little scary gods in my life, shouting orders. And threatening me if I didn’t do everything right. But now that I am aware of this, I’m not afraid of these little parts anymore. I can hear these thoughts in my head, and I think, oh, these are different parts of me. So that’s when I try to slow down and tune in. And listen to what each individual part is trying to communicate to me. I’m not listening to something outside myself. I listen to my own beliefs and inner thoughts. If I don’t ever slow things down and stop to listen, I’m never going to know what’s going on inside of me. And then I won’t have the self awareness that I need to address these issues that I’m struggling with. These parts of us, they also need an empathetic witness to determine if it’s emotional abuse or just regular conflict. And find peace and calm in our bodies. And we are, or can be, that empathetic witness for ourselves. I think it’s miraculous and comforting to know that our creator within us also partners with us inside of our core self to be that empathetic witness. Using Self- Compassion To Determine What’s Going On Natalie: Our opportunity and challenge is to address those parts of us confused and hurting, and move towards those parts in love and compassion. Finding what’s going on, and finding out what they believe. And then loosening up their thinking a little bit. So that those parts of us can experience the warmth, the light, and the love God has for us. Anne: That’s beautiful. It’s such a good way to describe it. I think the way you describe it is way more effective, but I’ve described it like this, it’s competing values. Because you’re like, I need to be safe, but I also want to be obedient, so trying to figure out what the best thing to do is. Natalie: Or even like, I need to be safe, but I also want to be vulnerable and have intimacy with someone. How do you get both things? Well, sometimes that depends on the other person, and figuring that out within yourself is so important. Because you don’t want to make yourself vulnerable to someone who isn’t safe to be around. Anne: Unfortunately, religion didn’t teach us about safety. They taught us about evil in a way that didn’t help us be safe. I think about that a lot, because there are so many people checking the religious boxes who are actually evil. They’re not safe at all. And yet they’re religious leaders, or they’re in that power over dynamic that is so harmful. And so deconstructing all that takes a long time, and it takes listening to yourself. Natalie: And we’re taught that we can’t trust ourselves. It’s interesting using the word safety. Why Do Religious Women Struggle To Identify Abuse? Natalie: We’re taught to glorify suffering. So when you’re not safe, you are suffering. So it’s almost like you’re glorifying being in a state of unsafety and hyper arousal to trauma, because that’s the spiritual thing to do. And of course, if you think that’s a problem, then you must not trust God. I just think many beliefs have been put in place by people who have really twisted the Bible. Or twisted religious thoughts to serve themselves and enable them to abuse people. I mean some of these guys will get involved with the distribution of intimate content without consent. When I was diagnosed with complex post-traumatic stress disorder, I started connecting the dots in my own life. I learned what CPTSD actually is—and I saw clearly how I ended up here. That clarity forced me to face something deeper: this wasn’t normal conflict. Something else had been happening all along. And there are three things that can trigger CPTSD. One is an uneven power dynamic. Which happens with women of faith in abusive marriages. There’s an uneven power dynamic when you are in a marriage with someone who is powering over you and abusing you. And then the second thing that can cause C PTSD is repetitive, prolonged trauma. So it’s not just one incident. It’s years and years of invalidation, criticism, gaslighting, all that kind of stuff happening over a period of time. Death by a million cuts, some people will say, or a million bee stings. And then the third part is, the perception that there is no escape. A lot of Christian women actually could get out, but they don’t think they can. Because they’ve been programmed to believe they’re not allowed to get a divorce. So that was dot number one. The Importance Of An Empathetic Witness Natalie: The second dot, the other missing piece in my life was an empathetic witness to my experiences. Nobody believed me. I felt like I was in a glass bubble for most of my life, suffocating, screaming and banging on the glass for someone to see me. And hear me and let me out. And people would just walk right by and completely ignore me. So there’s a lot of deflection and spiritualizing of abuse and pain in Christian circles. And there’s this theology too, in many Christian circles, that men have rights and privileges that women don’t have. And also that women are often blamed for many things, like being a stumbling block for men with our bodies. Or trying to emasculate men simply because we might have a different opinion or thought. Or maybe we could be more educated than them, or have a better idea than they do. And then we’re accused of emasculating men. Anne: Heaven forbid, I was accused of emasculating my ex, so yes. Natalie: So dehumanizing. I think the only way out of this mess is for the individual woman to find her own voice, power, and autonomy. And to take that back to herself. I believe now that we do that by turning toward ourselves and becoming that empathetic witness that we have needed our entire lives. This is how we heal our inner world. There’s also a theme throughout my life of missing a mother to show me what this looks like. I thought I had a wonderful mother, bizarrely. But as it turned out, she was never able to heal herself. So she ended up unable to see, hear or validate my perspective. Determining Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict: Listen To The Spirit Within Natalie: So part of my healing was learning how to actually be that mother to myself. Anne: It’s confusing. At church on Sunday, someone said 10 things Jesus never said. And she proceeded to say, Listen to yourself is one of the things Jesus never said. He said, listen to the Spirit. As I’m sitting there, I’m thinking, how do I know if it’s emotional abuse if I agree with both things? I want to listen to the Spirit, but the Spirit is my inner voice. The Spirit is leading me to truth. And to tell people, don’t listen to yourself, listen to God. But then who do they want God to be? The leader of the church who’s saying, no, no, no, keep your mouth shut, sit down. Or the actual Spirit inside of you that tells you what’s right for you. How Much Conflict is Normal In a Relationship? Sometimes it gets so complex as a believer to think, well, is this me? Is this God? Is this something else? Can you talk about the conflict women feel that maybe their inner voice is a healthy, safe person to follow? Especially if they’re getting that type of spiritual abuse. Natalie: You know, what is the motivation behind teaching something specific like that? Yes, there’s some truth, but also someone can teach something and have an ulterior motive or reason. Maybe they aren’t even aware of it. So sometimes calling out people’s motives is important. When Jesus left the earth, he said, “Don’t worry, I’m going to give you a gift.” And it wasn’t the Bible. The gift he promised was the Holy Spirit. He said, “I’m going to give you a helper who’s going to guide you in all things.” Each person was given the Holy Spirit inside of them. It’s like affirmations for emotional abuse victims. Partnering With God In Decision Making Natalie: So I tell people, God is partnering with you in your core. You’re never going to get it all right, because you’ve got different parts of you and that are wounded. As they should be in this world. People sometimes ask me, why is it that I have all this trouble in the way I think? Sometimes I make choices I don’t want to make. And I’m like, that’s because you’re just a normal human being. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re normal. And God didn’t say, I’m going to create all these gods and goddesses. He created humans. And so what is that amazing thing that happens when we can partner with God, our Creator, in making decisions? And moving through life, and also be open to making mistakes. I’ve got some new grandchildren. They’re all under one. My son had triplets, and then my daughter had a baby at the same time. So I’ve got these four babies. They’re all almost one. So they’re learning how to crawl and stand. Let’s say I was to take my granddaughter, we were going to go in the backyard and hang out. If she tried to walk and she fell, or she tried to climb over something too hard for her to climb over, I’m not gonna berate her. And say, I can’t believe you tried to do that, that’s so ridiculous. I’m also not gonna hold her and put her down and let her explore. And make her own decisions about, like, I wanna look at this flower, I wanna climb over this rock. Learning & Growing Through Mistakes Natalie: As a good grandma, I’m gonna love her and put her down and let her explore. And I’m going to be with her. I’m going to be here to catch her when she falls. But our kids will fall off their bikes. They’re going to make mistakes. They’re going to date someone who’s the wrong person, and end up getting their heartbroken. That’s part of living this life on earth. And God’s not up there going, okay, you’re my puppet. I’m going to tell you where to go and what to do. And if you do everything exactly, as I say, nothing bad will happen to you. And that’s how everyone will know that you are a good Christian. You will make all the right decisions. You will know exactly what decision to make when you come to a fork in the road. That’s not true. None of that is true. I wouldn’t have ever said that or articulated it like that. But honestly, that’s what I believed. And that is very baffling, and it doesn’t make any sense. And it does bring a lot of shame then, because when you make a mistake. Like for example, I married someone I thought God wanted me to marry. And it turns out it was a very, very bad decision, but God was with me through all of it. And I don’t look back at that and go, “God, why did you make me do that?” God didn’t make me do that. I made that choice myself based on what I had been programmed to believe about marriage, about my job as a godly person, and what I needed to do to fulfill that role. And so I made a choice based on my understanding at that time. How To Heal From Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict Natalie: And then 25 years later, I decided to divorce him based on my more updated understanding. Of how life works, you know, 25 years later, I’ve told my kids, you’re going to make mistakes. You’re going to buy the wrong house that loses its value, make a bad investment, take a bad job or possibly marry the wrong person. But that’s okay. That’s part of God allowing you this amazing, beautiful privilege of living a life. And you also get to change your mind and pivot any time you need to. And we can’t always pivot out of everything, but we can pivot out of many things. Sometimes when a hurricane, tornado or fire comes through and destroys the community. You will see that 10 years later, that community has been rebuilt. It looks different. It’s not the same community anymore. We can rebuild our lives and we can start over when we do make mistakes. And I think God is all in on all of that. Anne: Yeah, that’s the reason we came here to learn and grow. Natalie: Exactly. Anne: just like your granddaughter. You can’t do it without doing it. Natalie: That’s exactly right. Anne: Speaking about learning and growing, one of my jobs and your jobs as a podcaster is to educate people about spiritual and emotional abuse. There are two parts. There’s the part where you’re spiritually and emotionally abused, and you don’t know that you are and your body’s reacting to that. And then there’s your reactions after you’re educated about it now that you know what you’re looking at. Understanding Reactions To Abuse Anne: How do our bodies react when faced with spiritual abuse in marriage? Natalie: I began to look back to my experiences growing up, as well as my 25 year marriage to an emotionally and spiritually abusive man. I finally understood why I reacted in so many different ways to those experiences, which is why I decided to write my book. I wanted to allow those different parts to tell a portion of my story. One of the biggest things I hear Christian women saying about their marriages and lives is that they’re so confused. If we’re confused, we can’t problem solve. We have to know what the problem is, or we’re not going to find a solution. So I learned that I was confused. Because there were different parts of me who had different ways of thinking. So one part of me minimized it. I call her Rosie. One part of me exaggerated it and believed I was doomed, and my children were all doomed. Another part of me spiritualized it and viewed it as a badge of honor to be an abuse victim for Jesus. Anne: Wow. I’ve never heard that before, and I have to say it. Okay, this is Natalie’s, but I’m quoting her, “an abuse victim for Jesus.” That is amazing. Natalie: I know, it’s really sad. It’s really sad. Anne: I just, there’s so many people who are an abuse victim for Jesus. Natalie: They have that badge and… Anne: Yeah. The Role of “Rude” In Self-Liberation Natalie: Wear it with pride. Yeah, I had this other part, I call her my rude part, and she’s my truth teller. My mother used to tell me I was rude, and when I became a teenager, I started seeing things for what they were, and started calling them out. And ooh, I would get in bad trouble for that. But my mom would tell me that I was rude. But rude showed up regularly with her analysis of what happened. All my other parts outnumbered rude. And I had been programmed, you know, from childhood to believe that rude was my rebellious, sinful part. Don’t listen to that voice. You know, rude will get me into trouble, but rude was ultimately the part of me inside of myself who set me free in many ways. So how do our bodies react? Well, I think that depending on which part of us were blended or flooded with at any given time, our body’s going to react that way. So after an abuse incident, like if my husband had just gotten done, telling me everything was my fault. That I was a horrible person, basically projecting all the things he did onto me. My melancholy part would just want to die. I had so much self loathing. I could not please my husband. He insisted everything was my fault, and my experiences were all in my head. So I just thought I was going crazy, and the pain in my body was so deep and dark. And hurts like physically hurt. I often wished I could just die because it hurt so bad. Living With Anxiety & Overperformance When It’s Emotional Abuse Natalie: But then I had this other part of me, I call it freaked, and my freaked part had anxiety about everything. So what that part does in my body is it’s constantly on an adrenaline high. It makes me want to over-perform to please everyone, so they won’t criticize or get angry at me. So I get up in the morning and I’m like, I got to make sure the house is clean. I make all these phone calls, and take a meal to these people. And I got to make sure I homeschool my kids just right. All those things, that was my freaked part. That’s how freaked was showing up in my body. After an abuse incident, my Rosie part would always kick in. And tell me all the things I had to be thankful for, and that I should believe the best. I should forgive and forget. And she would encourage another part of me to shut down my memory, and to this day, I have lost huge chunks of my memory. The only reason I could write a book was because I kept journals during that time. Although I would tear out pages that described the abuse in detail, which is unfortunate. Because it would have been better to have more details. I believe love kept no record of wrongs, and I loved my husband. So I would write down details as soon as it would happen. Then I would tear those out, but Rosie would help, so I experienced some relief almost from the pain. And yeah, all those parts, they all played a role, not that I was keeping myself in a cycle. Rooted Beliefs & Programming Natalie: It’s those rooted beliefs that other people had downloaded into me. Anne: I was about to respectfully maybe disagree. Not that I want to disagree with you, because I would like to validate you. But I also was like, well, wait a minute. Was it really you? Or was it what you had been programmed to believe? Natalie: Absolutely, that’s a good way to distinguish it. They were my beliefs, but they had been programmed into me. It would be like a science fiction thing, where you take a new baby, and you plug these little things into their brain. And you download it like a computer. That baby will grow up, and it will do all the behaviors it was programmed to do. The only way that person will be set free is if he can access help that takes that old program out and puts in a new program. “Like is This Amount of Conflict Normal in a Relationship??” Anne: Because both of us, in our jobs, what we do is to help women see. To give them permission to know that it’s okay to think that thing they’re pushing against. Natalie: That’s exactly it, because we have these parts that are like, I can’t believe you think that. Like, why would you think that? That’s so dumb to think that, or I can’t believe you stay. It’s so dumb that you stay. No, there are good reasons why those younger parts of us believe those things. Really good reasons that number one, they were programmed to believe them. But also, especially when you’re a child, you are using strategies as a child to simply survive. You can’t just leave your family, you can’t divorce your parents. Even if one of them can’t do co parenting with a narcissistic co parent. You rely and depend on them for your world. Childhood Programming & Survival Natalie: And children tend to view themselves as the problem. And they tend to view their parents as, you know, the gods and the parents know everything. And so if the parents project their own crap on the child or use the child in different ways. The child will think that’s what the child’s role is. And those child parts are still inside of you, fully believing those things. If our adult self looks at those parts and goes, well, that’s dumb. I don’t know why you think that. And we have all this inner self loathing, the parts will double down inside of us and go, yup, see, I knew it. I have to hang on to this. I have to learn how to identify emotional abuse. We stay because we’re scared to death of rocking the boat. We’re scared to death of getting kicked out of all the love circles. We believe that if we get kicked out, we will die. That’s what those parts of us believe. And those are good reasons to stay. We believe something bad could happen to our children. A good reason to stay. We have good reasons for believing what we believe. So loosening up, like you said, we both do this work of loosening up those beliefs. They’re beliefs that younger parts of us have inside of us. But if you can move towards those beliefs and understand them and go, it makes total sense why you’d think that and have compassion and curiosity. Knowing If It’s Emotional Abuse: Loosening Up Beliefs Natalie: And I wonder where that belief came from. And I wonder where you learned that. And I wonder how it’s reinforced throughout your life. That’s the way it should be. And I wonder if there are other ways we could look at this that might be more helpful, or that might actually set you free or be more life giving for you. Anne: It’s so exciting to see women think about things differently in a way that is good. And when I say in a way that is good, we’ve been programmed to think that the way we’re thinking about, like divorce, maybe. Or just separating yourself from harm, or maybe even just not making bread. You don’t have to make bread. Some women, the second you give them permission, hear something and realize, oh, I didn’t know I didn’t have to do that. Natalie: Yeah, when I was in the thick of living in an abusive world all around me, I was gaslit and programmed with the idea that there was something fundamentally wrong with me. So of course, there was this tremendous shame and confusion in my body, and I couldn’t make sense of the contradictory beliefs. I’m trying to figure it out. I realized that these beliefs were not who I was. They weren’t my identity, but rather long held programming that I acquired through no fault of my own , that’s when I could create some distance between me and these parts of me that held these beliefs. Excommunication & Loss Natalie: And I could look at them with compassion and curiosity and move toward them. Like we mentioned before, just asking them questions about when they started believing that thing, and why they hold on to that belief, and how they think that belief is keeping me safe. So for example, if I hung on to this belief that there was something wrong with me. Then when someone disagreed with me or didn’t like me, I could make it about me. Well, that’s because there’s something wrong with me. And then I could continue to reach out to them and give them their way. And if I did that, they would like me and allow me to be in their love circle. I mean, it’s so twisted. But I realized. That’s what I actually do in this dynamic. Not even realizing it might be emotional abuse. But if I let go of that belief that there was something wrong with me. Well, that kind of scared me, because if I did that, I might just stand up for what I believed. I might stop giving them their way, and that would get me into deep, deep trouble with other people. And they might kick me out. And then if that happened, I would die. There was a part of me that truly believed I would not survive it if I was kicked out. That is exactly what ultimately happened when I stopped obeying everyone around me. I was maligned, lied about, talked about and lost my reputation, my credibility. And then I was excommunicated from my church and my family of origin hasn’t talked to me for five years. Isolation From Family Natalie: So to this day, I can’t even go to a funeral for an extended family member. This recently happened, without people turning away from me and shunning me. Because they believe only God knows what about me. I don’t even know that I had to be willing to lose all those scary little gods in my life to find a big loving creator God. And I also had to lose all the scary little people in my life in order to find a woman, myself, named Natalie. The best decision ever, but man, was it painful? Anne: I love that you bring that up. You are searching to figure out what’s going on. Like you lost so much, but would say you feel better? Natalie: Oh yeah. Anne: One of the things I talk about is that I live in the mountains of Utah. And I love to ski, and there’s a pitch on any run where it looks like a cliff. And you have to get kind of close to the edge of that pitch to realize it’s not a cliff. It’s just the rest of the slope, and you can ski down it. That happens in hiking too. You get to it and you think, oh, I can’t get close to that. It’s a cliff. But then if you look over, you realize, Oh no, it’s just a slope. It’s fine. It’s okay. Come look over the pitch. You’re going to be safe. The nightmare scenario that you were just terrified of being excommunicated, having everyone think you’re terrible. That happened, and yet it was what set you free. Would you mind talking about that for a little bit? Finding Freedom Outside The Sandbox Natalie: Yeah. That analogy is so beautiful. I love it. That perfectly describes my experience with this. A lot of our fear is just fear of the unknown, but once you actually walk through it daily, it definitely hurts. It’s not like it doesn’t hurt, but at least I found it wasn’t as bad as I thought, as far as it didn’t kill me. It was painful, but when I was in that environment, it was almost like I thought that was the whole world. I had to get out of it to realize how… How I describe it is. Imagine an ocean with a big beach, where you can look as far to the right as you want and as far to the left as you want. All you can see is the horizon. So it just goes on forever. It seems like on the beach, even. And then imagine the church that kicked me out is a little sandbox on one little part of the beach. That’s maybe four feet by four feet. And there’s some kids playing in that sandbox. And that was my church. I thought when I was in the sandbox with the kids, that was the world. And when I got kicked out and started wandering on this big beach, feeling lost and alone. What I discovered is that there are all kinds of beautiful people on the beach that were never in that sandbox. And I am free and I don’t have a sandbox anymore. Now I’ve got miles and miles and miles of beach to explore and other people in the world to get to know. And they don’t all have the same beliefs as what the people in my sandbox had. The Gift Of Being Disliked Natalie: And there’s so much relief. I was under so much pressure and stress to be someone I wasn’t when I was in that sandbox. And there was so much threatening. If you do this, then this is what’s going to happen to you. You better do it our way. You better do, A, B, and C. And so there’s always that fear. Once I got out on the beach, I could run and play. The Bible in Psalms, it talks about setting our feet in spacious places. That’s what I felt like God did. He plucked me out of that sandbox and set my feet in spacious places that I could run and be free. And experience more of life than ever. The people always told me never to get out of the in the sandbox. There’s danger out there. It was just manipulation, right, and lies. And then when they finally just kicked me out. It was like the best thing ever happened to me. I could figure out if it was emotional abuse or just normal conflict. Anne: I’ve thought about that a lot with people who don’t like me. And I’m like, thank you. I don’t have to worry about how I am around you or anything. If you don’t like me, that’s a gift to me. I mean, I’ve come to this now. I’m not saying I’ve been like this forever, but it’s very, like, freeing. Instead of them saying, well, I’m not going to like you unless you do, you know, this, this, and this. Natalie: Right. Cause then you can just be like, okay, then don’t like me. Anne: Yeah! Natalie: It’s a free world. Anne: Great. Problem solved, right? Aligning Meditation With Christian Faith Anne: I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, which has 13 meditations that I wrote specifically for abuse victims. I was concerned because I’m Christian. But some Christian faiths don’t think meditation will be good for people and they’re worried about it. The meditations I wrote are faith neutral. And if people want to imagine the white light as Christ, they can do that or not. Or, you know, whatever they want to do. I sampled them with Christian women. Because I was rightfully concerned that it might offend them or conflict maybe, but as they took it, they were like, no, this was awesome. They thought it helped them learn how to figure out what’s happening. It completely fit in with my faith, even though I left the meditations spiritually neutral. When The Amount of Conflict Isn’t Normal In a Relationship How does this align with the Christian faith for Christians out there who are maybe nervous about trying something different? Especially if they’ve been spiritually abused. Natalie: The Christian faith should be about love. I know that’s not what we’re seeing in today’s modern and warped version of it. It’s full of hate and vitriol, and grabbing for power and control. Christianity is after Jesus Christ. He modeled something very different. Because he moved toward the outcasts and the lepers, and the sick and the poor. He offered peace, forgiveness, and grace. He promised to love us and never leave us or forsake us. So Christianity, which is supposed to be this religion that walks in the footsteps of Jesus, should look like that, right? Well, what I discovered and talk about in the last part of my book is that just because people don’t understand the way of Christ doesn’t mean that way isn’t available to us. It just didn’t feel like it when my husband is taking advantage of me. Healing Emotional Abuse Through Compassionate Identification Natalie: And my job isn’t to make other people follow rules or do what I think they should do. My job is to simply walk with Christ myself. And the starting place for that is within me. So instead of criticizing, hating on, beating up and running away from the parts inside of me who carry darker beliefs. Or proclivities due to their woundedness or the burdens they carry. I have the opportunity to be like Christ. Who I say I follow and move toward those darker beliefs parts of me, with love, compassion and empathy. When I do that, those parts inside of me, unburdened from the beliefs that keep them trapped in fear and shame. Then they enter the light and love of God. The Bible says love casts out fear. So when we’re afraid. That’s our opportunity to figure out why am I afraid and where am I missing love? Like, where do I need to show myself some love? How can I get into safe spaces where I can experience freedom, joy, and peace? How can we hold others accountable who are imprisoning and abusing other human beings? Especially how can we offer dignity to ourselves and other human beings wherever they’re on their journey? That’s what I do, this is what you’re doing. We focus on healing that relationship that we have with our own lost and wounded parts first. And then when they heal, everything changes. Anne: In so many cases, the entire system oppresses a woman abuse victim. She is not receiving validation, love, or freedom from oppression. Christ’s Mission Against Oppression Anne: Which is what Christ came to do. I mean, he’s our Savior. I say all the time, he is the deliverer, the savior. He did not come to oppress anyone, he came to save them and deliver them from oppression. He would want them to know what’s going on. Natalie: If we’re Christians, we’re as representatives in the world. Where we’re not doing that is where we have deviated from the Christian faith. In my opinion. Anne: I totally agree. Many people, mainly women, are oppressed. I worry about that. They submit because they’re asked to, but what they’re really submitting to is not God, it’s not goodness. They’re submitting to evil, and it freaks me out. Natalie: I believe if Christianity supported women getting out of abusive relationships. That would potentially force men to be the people God created them to be. But they won’t. As long as they’re not held accountable, as long as we’re just going to blame the victims, and we’re going to enable the abusers. And enable men to have these entitlement beliefs that women should meet their needs. So women should do everything they need. The men will never heal, and the women will always suffer. And run that risk of being in a bad relationship and having no support to get out. Anne: If their goal is to be an exploiter and not fill the measure of their creation, they’ve nailed it. Natalie: Yes. Anne: But I don’t think that’s what God intended for them. Natalie: No. How To Heal From Emotional Abuse The Growing Movement For Change Anne: And I think there are many amazing spiritual leaders who would agree with us. Natalie: Oh, absolutely. I think it is growing. Natalie: I know this wasn’t a Christian movement, but the me too movement opened up the conversation and it exploded. And now there are all kinds of nuanced conversations happening all over the place. Because Christians like us are standing up and going, this has to stop, and we’re calling it out. We have to know how to identify emotional abuse, and not just pass it off as everyday conflict. It has to start on the ground level with individuals. You know, hopefully we’ll see more and more women standing up and going. I’m not going to do this anymore, but it has to happen from the top down as well. And I don’t know what’s happening up there. That’s not my calling, but I definitely think there’s work to be done. Anne: I was going to say, are you sure Natalie, maybe starting a seminary? I just got revelation for you. I’m kidding. Natalie: I’ll think about that. Anne: Well, thank you so much, Natalie. I appreciate you coming on today.

Transcribed - Published: 14 January 2025

Do you have betrayal trauma symptoms? Did any professional that you went to help you understand that you are a victim of emotional and psychological abuse? If not, you’re not the only one. Attend one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions to join a community of women who can validate and support you. Most Professionals Miss Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Tragically, family, friends, clergy, and therapists further abuse victims. When they don’t recognize that betrayal trauma symptoms are caused by emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. “That was the hardest part of my betrayal trauma symptoms. I felt like I was screaming, waving my arms for help, going to everyone I could think of, from clergy to therapists, and no one helped me.” Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG Women With Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Are Victims Of Abuse Many women in our community share that they did not understand where the betrayal trauma symptoms were coming from. They thought it was from the discovery of their husband’s infidelity or pornography use, and it was. But they didn’t know that his infidelity and use signaled that he was emotionally and psychologically abusive. To know if you’re a victim of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz. What Are Common Betrayal Trauma Symptoms? Wondering if you are in betrayal trauma? Here are a few of the most common symptoms: Grief Numbness Rage Depression Insomnia and other sleep issues Difficulty eating or overeating Anxiety Terror Paranoia Headaches Body aches and pains At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand how to help you heal from betrayal trauma symptoms. Transcript: The Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Anne: I have Kathy or Justice Jones on today’s episode. She is a justice advocate who promotes outside the box solutions. And best practice responses to families living under the chronic oppression of abusers and counter-parents. I invited her here because the truth is that domestic abuse causes betrayal trauma symptoms. So we need to discuss domestic abuse and how professionals are missing it. Especially betrayal trauma professionals. They’re not identifying the symptoms of betrayal trauma as responses to emotional and psychological abuse, and coercion. So we’re going to talk about that today. Welcome Kathy. Kathy: Thank you for having me. Anne: Listeners to my podcast who have experienced this understand on a deeply personal level. How the entire system does not understand emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. And the continued abuse post separation or post divorce, when you’re fighting a narcissist for custody. So let’s look at the system as a whole, including court professionals, therapists, all the people involved. When you say trauma responsive professionals, do you mean people who actually really get it or people who just say they get it? And can you also talk about the difference between those two things? Kathy: Yes, certainly. The System’s Failure To Recognize Abuse Kathy: I’ve been hearing the code word “trauma informed” probably for about 10 years in national conferences and the like. It quickly became apparent to me that just because you’re trauma informed, it doesn’t mean you’re responsive. It doesn’t mean you take the knowledge imparted to you and actually work towards the benefit and healing of the survivor. Meaning that if you’re a trauma informed professional, trauma informed is not enough. Even in your good intentions, you may be acting in ways or putting the survivor in situations that actually aggravate or re-traumatize that victim. Anne: From my perspective, there are so many so-called “betrayal trauma therapists.” Or even addiction recovery therapists, or other therapists who say they’re trauma informed. But they don’t understand anything about abuse and abuse dynamics. And so their counsel to the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms ends up harming the victim more. Many women don’t know this when they are looking for a therapist for their abusive husband. Kathy: So the first story I have for you is eight years ago. I worked at my local domestic violence crisis center, and was invited to become part of a local mental health program. Part of their invitation was so that I could inform their practices to do domestic violence related issues better than what they knew. It was a real opportunity for me. And the first training I provided for these folks, they were wonderful people, but it became clear they did not know enough about domestic violence, counter-parenting, and just any issue related to family violence. Lack Of Training In Domestic Abuse Kathy: So I was compelled to ask the question of the 15 people in the room. They had well over 300 years total of real time practice working with families, and they could only come up with maybe 15 hours of domestic violence or family violence training. And that included their college career. And I was horrified. Anne: That’s very typical, or even less than that. Kathy: Even less than that. I committed myself that day to making sure this particular practice got a lot more training than they had. In fact, they asked me to do a training session for mental health practitioners across the state of New Hampshire. But still, it was not enough to address the dearth of information that goes into the programming for mental health practitioners. Another eye opening incident. I was conducting a retreat, and we asked the participants, there were about 24 of them in the room. How many of you have been into counseling for addressing the domestic violence issues and betrayal trauma symptoms you were dealing with? 23 of those women raised their hands. And then I said, I’d like to ask, how many of you were actually helped by that counseling? And none of them raised their hands. Then they started sharing stories about how their CSAT therapist actually encouraged them to stay in the abuse. To try a little harder, and stay a little longer. Anne: Communicate a little better. Kathy: Yeah, communicate a little better. Anne: Tell them what your boundaries are. Tell them what you expect. The Danger Of Couples Therapy In Treating Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Kathy: What was most interesting was that there were women in that room who were also mental health practitioners. And they were really distressed by the line of questioning. And eventually, after conversations after the retreat, one of them got back to me and said, like, that was eye opening for me. Even though she was one of the people acknowledging, hey, mental health practitioners didn’t help me with betrayal trauma symptoms. They, in fact, contributed to my pain. Anne: I’ve found that therapists in general do not understand this. When someone goes in for help, they do not approach it from the right angle, especially couples therapy. Kathy: Couples therapy should not even be a thing. As soon as domestic violence is identified, an ethical mental health practitioner will say, “I’m sorry, I cannot provide services in a conjoined therapeutic session. We need to do this separately.” Anne: Even if it’s separate, they still don’t understand. Like sometimes that same therapist will relay information from the victim to the perpetrator. Like, Hey, she doesn’t like it when you yada, yada, which puts her in further danger. Kathy: Absolutely, yep. Anne: It’s so, so dangerous. The emotional and psychological abuse and the coercion piece are so misunderstood that. I’m concerned about anyone going to therapy, not that I’m like anti-therapy, that’s not what I’m trying to say. But for victims of abuse, it’s not the right way to go if they don’t understand they’re being abused. Because they don’t understand themselves. And because the therapist only knows what they see, they’re not going to help that victim identify that they are being abused. Kathy: Well, again, I can share another story. When Therapy Makes Things Worse Kathy: This one, my personal account where I was being abused by my ex-husband and decided to go into couples therapy. Because that was what I was encouraged to do. But my ex-husband wouldn’t go. Because, you know, I was the one who had all the problems. And I went anyway, it was with a couple who provided the therapy. And they were, again, lovely people, but their words created a lot of damage. One of the things they said to me, even after I disclosed that my ex-husband dumped hot spaghetti sauce on me. Because I had made spaghetti for dinner instead of pork chops. They said, well, you need to confess your sins to him and ask him for his forgiveness. And I was like, what? And that was the last time I ever went for counseling. Again, like you, I’m not anti-counseling, but mental health practitioners must understand domestic violence. Before they should provide any level of care for domestic violence and assault, coercion, and coercive control victims. Anne: Now, many listeners come to this podcast because their husband uses online explicit material, or has an affair. And they find out that he’s been lying and gaslighting. So when someone, like a guest, or when I use the term domestic violence. They are like, oh, well, this must not be for me, because this isn’t a domestic violence situation. So I tend to use the word domestic abuse to help them understand that it is an abuse issue. But also, it’s a violence issue. Emotional & Psychological Violence The Broader Scope Of Domestic Abuse Anne: It’s emotionally and psychologically violent. Kathy: Yep. Anne: In our daily online support group for betrayal trauma, we don’t specialize in physical violence per se, but physical violence will never happen in a vacuum. It’s always going to be preceded by emotional and psychological abuse. So it is under the umbrella of domestic violence. Women who are here and hearing this word. If you’re like, he doesn’t punch me in the face. This isn’t a domestic violence issue. It might be an abuse issue, it is a domestic violence issue. It is under that umbrella, and it is violence in emotional and psychological ways. Kathy: Absolutely, 100%. The thing that I would say to those women who say that to themselves. The reason why you may not have seen physical violence yet is because the emotional and non-physical forms of violence he’s using against you are working. They’re doing what he wants them to do. Every single abuser is absolutely 100% capable of utilizing that more physical form of violence to maintain their dominance in a relationship. I would say between 60 and 65 percent of the women I work with have not experienced severe physical violence. And when I say severe, I’m talking about something other than pushing or pulling. Anne: Even just standing over them. Kathy: Punching a wall, throwing things, breaking the victim’s things. Those are all physical forms of violence. None of them are okay, by the way. I’m not trying to minimize the effect of those, but I’m saying, societally, we don’t think it’s a big deal. Until these abusers punch us in the eyes, and there’s a lot more that comes before that that is part of domestic violence. The Role Of Mental Health Professionals In Treating Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Kathy: Even though mental health professionals were the reason to do training. I have to say to my shame and regret that domestic violence crisis centers were another reason why. And police departments, judges, and guardians ad litem, the whole system of people out there were the reasons why. But the other reason was that I needed to succinctly lay out what are trauma informed practices. Even though I’m certain there are way more trauma informed practices. I tried to boil it down to these ten. What trauma survivors need to feel safe. As far as I’m concerned, it’s the most courageous act that any survivor can do is become vulnerable enough to say to somebody else, I need help. I can’t do this alone. Anne: And then that vulnerable moment having the trauma compounded is so difficult. It’s happened to so many of us here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Which is exactly why I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I spent seven years with my emotionally and psychologically abusive ex in addiction recovery. No one said anything about abuse. Kathy: I’m really sorry. Anne: For seven years, I’m suffering the symptoms of betrayal trauma under the care of so-called therapeutic professionals. Not knowing that I was being abused. Not only by my ex, but also by proxy, yeah, by the system. It was so awful. Kathy: I’m really sorry that happened to you. Anne: Well, and that’s why I thought, I’ve got to get the word out. Don’t go down any other route until you know about abuse. Once you understand abuse well, and you can say, okay, this isn’t abuse. So maybe I can go to therapy, then you’d be in okay shape. The Danger Of Misguided Therapy Anne: But if you go there first without knowing about abuse, they’re not going to help you understand it in general. Maybe someone will help. Luckily, some guests on this podcast shared how they went to a particular therapist and received help. So that’s good. I’m not trying to say everybody’s like that. Kathy: And I’m so happy to hear those successful stories when they happen. I’m like, yeah, Anne: I don’t know. Kathy: But it’s very few and far between. Anne: It is. And I do not want to discount your list. But I think it’s interesting how some people are like, well, I went to this training. And you could succinctly spell out what needs to happen or a list of what needs to happen. And the practitioner or court professional or helper thinks, okay, I got it. No problem. And then they talked to the victim and they think, oh, well, this doesn’t apply to her because… Kathy: She’s not a victim. Anne: Because he’s telling me this isn’t what’s going on. And immediately, nothing they just learned is helpful to her. So you just need people who have been through it. Because training doesn’t help professionals either. If they don’t truly understand it, they can’t get past his manipulation. Kathy: It’s an important point, because here’s the thing. Anytime you see a list like this, it shouldn’t be a check off. Of, yep, I did that, yep, I did that, yep, I did that. These lists should be utilized to take a good, long, hard look at how you conduct yourself. With, for instance, a trauma survivor, and say, will these people say these things about me? Listening Without Blame Or Judgment Kathy: This is about getting professionals to think about this trauma survivor. I just worked with someone who identified herself as a trauma survivor. What is she gonna say about me on this app? Anne: The first item on your list. It’s not funny, but I’m smiling to myself a little bit, and I’ll tell you why. It says, listen to adult or child victims without blame or judgment. The reason why I am thinking of myself in this moment is because when I hear a victim, victim blame themselves, I listen without blame or judgment. But I always want to sort of set them straight, right? Like, no, no, no, this is not your fault. Nope. And it can sound invalidating to victims experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Which I feel bad about, but I want to invalidate the self-abuse. I want to invalidate the ideas they have about themselves that came from the abuser. That they don’t recognize is abuse, and it’s not their fault that they don’t recognize it. It’s sort of a Catch 22 for someone who understands abuse to listen and redirect the truth of what’s going on. Which is a totally different thing, and not why you wrote this. Because you were intending to call out people who say, well, what could you have done better? Kathy: I have to go back and speak to the issue you were just talking about. Because it’s not just the abuser that gives the victim the perspective of, well, you’re to blame too, and this is what you’re doing wrong. That’s what you’re doing wrong, our entire society does it. The Symptoms Of Betrayal Trauma & Power Dynamics In Abuse Kathy: There’s no more popular social activity out there than blaming and hating victims. So for me, this first step is, you’ve got to listen to somebody who identifies themselves as a victim and has betrayal trauma symptoms. You’ve got to listen to them without adding your own misconceptions and misperceptions about what they’re doing. How they added, how they contributed, how they’re complicit in their own abuse, because abuse comes from a power over dynamic. And an abuse victim is never a person in power within that specific relationship. So what do I mean by that? If you are somebody who’s being abused. You’re abused because the person who abuses you has decided they are superior to you. And that you are inferior to them in every way, shape, and form. With somebody like that, you’re not a victim one day and powerful the next day. Where you’re like fighting back. Resistance abuse is a term I can’t stand. It’s not abuse, it’s just resistance. Anne: Exactly, or it’s resistance to abuse. Kathy: You have a power dynamic of one person who’s always dominant over the other. Power and control, coercive control, this is what it’s all about. So I like to use the acronym PRIC: Premeditated, Repetitive, Intentional, Conscious and knowing. Anne: Hmm. Kathy: That’s how abusers work. They do that to establish their dominance as either the partner or as a parent. And they do it with the intention of destroying your ability to have any sense of safety, well-being, or autonomy. Anne: Would you add that they use lying, manipulation, and gaslighting to do it? Kathy: Yeah, yeah they use a bunch of tools in their tool belt to do that. The Intentionality Of Abusers Kathy: People will ask me all the time, is it intentional? Let me tell you how intentional it is. I have another example. My abuser used to sleep at night with his fingers wrapped through my hair. I couldn’t even get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom without him knowing. https://youtu.be/020px4mdTX4 So even in his sleep, he was intentional in knowing exactly where I was and what I was doing at all times. So, it is true that victims will say things that indicate they are taking on the blame for abuse that is happening to them. And I think it is perfectly okay, certainly, I have done it hundreds of times, if not thousands of times. To ask them, can I reframe that for you for a minute? Can we talk about the power dynamic here? What was happening in your mind as you did X, Y, Z? Were you doing that in the moment to be dominant over him? Or were you trying to get some semblance of self autonomy back? Or were you trying to defend yourself or your children? And so deconstructing what that victim calls, I contributed to the abuse. Not to deny them their experience. But to say, like, hey, let’s reframe this to think about what was happening here, because self defense is not abuse. Anne: One of the problems is that abusers will claim their abuse was self defense. No matter how bad she’s suffering from betrayal trauma symptoms. She wouldn’t let me use, I couldn’t take it anymore. I had to take a stand, they might say. But if you ask, what was it that she was pushing for truth, transparency, equality? Reframing Victim Blame Kathy: And, again, it’s about looking at the totality of that relationship. To say, where was your dominance in that moment? You were withholding significant information from her. That caused her to feel like you were not trustworthy, that you were putting her at risk for STI’s. Or that, you were belittling or making small the vows of your wedding that she was taking seriously. Like, there’s always that power dynamic that the perpetrator maintains, even as he is trying to get the victim to take the blame for what her reaction may have been in the moment. Anne: We mentioned it just barely about the idea of mutual abuse or reactive abuse. So for example, you’re experiencing abuse, so you were abusive to him. Is the idea that BTR.ORG emphatically rejects you’re just resisting, especially if your husband defends everyone but you. Which is a totally different thing. Can you talk about why maybe the typical therapist might suggest this? Or maybe an abuse victim might think she’s being abusive in response to his abuse? Kathy: One of the most common ideas around that is it takes two to tango. If you’re in counseling, especially in a co-counseling or couples counseling type of therapeutic relationship. It’s their nature to find where both parties are at fault. Anne: That’s the foundational theoretical underpinning of their training. It’s family systems. That is the schooling they received. I also think that under the certification and licensure, it’s unethical for them to pick a side. Right? Because of the family systems theory with which they’ve been trained. Betrayal Trauma Symptoms, Resources, & The Role of Clergy In Abuse Disclosure Kathy: It’s an aside, but the more I’ve seen the resources available. The only training I’ve seen on trauma informed practices that I think is worthwhile is the training through Dr. Jessica Taylor in the United Kingdom. Anne: I’ve had her on the podcast before. She’s great. Kathy: Because she specifically rejects any concept that would re-brand, re-victimize, or make somebody culpable in their own abuse for men’s violence against women. She would not pathologize women for being victims of men’s violence. Mother Justice Network, by the way, also completely rejects the idea of mutual abuse or reactive abuse. Anne: So many listeners to this podcast, when they find out about their husband’s online explicit material use, for example. Simultaneously, find out that he has been lying to her for years. Most of the time, they’re like a church going type man, right? So it’s assumed he wouldn’t participate in this type of behavior. Many victims, when they find out, the first thing they do is go to clergy. And say, Hey, this is what’s going on. They think maybe clergy can help them. This amounts to a victim disclosing abuse, right? Emotional and psychological abuse are what cause betrayal trauma and all the horrible symptoms that to along with it. But she might not know that’s what he’s doing. And 99% of the time, the clergy does not know that that’s what’s occurring. And so this disclosure of abuse ends up abusing her more in this setting with clergy. But it can happen with therapists or even law enforcement officers, or even the domestic violence shelter. The Risks Of Disclosing Abuse Anne: So let’s talk about some possible ramifications of disclosing abuse. Whether or not you know it’s abuse and are experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Women who listen to this podcast have done this because they didn’t know it was abuse. So it wasn’t their fault. They were trying to get help – I mean you’d think it would be easy to get the right support for marriage problems get help So they understand the risks and ramifications more than the general population. Kathy: Any time information gets back to someone who is abusive, there will always be a risk of retaliation. Because of making a disclosure of any kind. I think one of the first things anybody listening to this podcast should ask anyone is. “I need to say something to you, I need to tell you something. But I need to know under what circumstances would you share any bit of my disclosure with somebody else, including my partner.” Because if they can’t say to you, we will not disclose anything unless we have your specific written permission to make a disclosure. We will not make a disclosure because it is unsafe. Abusers, when they know they’re being outed, react potentially in a few ways. But the ones that I can think of immediately are they come back at you with anger, and their anger is always dangerous. Or they start spreading lies about you. I call it, she’s the bitter, violent, lying, lazy, crazy, drunken, druggie, money grub and slut defense. Or I call it building social equity. They try to collect as many flying monkeys around them so they can start discrediting you and what your perspective is. Leaving you feeling isolated and alone. It’s never a good response. The Problem With Therapeutic Disclosure Kathy: So disclosure, like even to somebody you think you can trust. You have to ask, what would you potentially do with disclosures that I make? Because it’s important, really important for your own physical and emotional safety. That you know what’s happening to that disclosure after it’s made. Anne: Now, disclosure is a very fraught word here at BTR.ORG. Because any listener who has gone through addiction recovery with the abuser. Usually the therapist wants to do a disclosure with the perpetrator. To write down all his use, affairs and all of his compulsive behavior. So they’ll list it all out and say, okay, we’re going to do this therapeutic disclosure. They don’t identify the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms and the perpetrator, because both of them are victims of the addiction, so to speak. Kathy: That’s really a thing? Anne: This is really a thing, yeah. Kathy: I’m horrified by what you just said. Anne: Yeah. It’s really a thing. So basically, the therapist says to her, “This is going to be hard for him. We need to support him through this disclosure.” They might do like a therapeutic polygraph at the end, which we do not recommend because they do not help. She is the ultimate decision maker about whether she is safe, if she feels safe. Many times after that polygraph, the therapist is like, well, he’s told us everything, and the polygraph has confirmed it. So I don’t know why you’re feeling stressed still and feeling betrayal trauma symptoms. He’s doing great. Now, I guess we have to deal with your trauma. As in, you’re a problem because you feel this trauma, and the trauma is the problem, not his abuse. The Importance Of Safe Reporting Of Abuse Anne: And so now you become like this crazy person, because he’s fine. He’s done everything he’s supposed to do, and you’re still suffering from the effects of betrayal trauma. Kathy: That is the ultimate systemic gaslighting, and I want to vomit right now. Anne: Yeah, it’s really, really bad. I want to acknowledge that as women listen. Because many of them have maybe either considered this addiction recovery, therapeutic disclosure, or someone has suggested it to them. That word disclosure can be very triggering for victims of abuse in this setting, in this context. So she’s talking about reporting the abuse, which is probably the word I would use here, so that we don’t get it confused with therapeutic disclosure. And then, make sure the person you report to is safe. That is key. We have a The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop that helps women decipher who is safe and who is not. When they start their journey to safety. So that they’re not accidentally reporting the abuse to someone. It could even be a neighbor. Who will get back to him about what’s going on. Kathy: Can I give you an example of what something safe might sound like? Anne: Sure, yeah. Kathy: This is the conversation I have with everybody who calls me from the moment the phone rings, and I pick up the phone. I say, listen, before we get into what you want to tell me about, there are a few things I want you to know about me. How To Identify Safe Helpers Kathy: First and foremost, I believe you. You don’t have to convince me of anything. I know that if you’re reaching out to me, it’s because you are in a storm of unsafety and feeling betrayal trauma symptoms for yourself and your kids. That you are so desperate that you need support. I let them know right from the beginning, I believe you. There’s no having to tell me anything that you don’t want to tell me to get to a place where I believe you. And anybody who would qualify their statement by saying, I have to check in with the other party. No, you don’t. No, you do not. Nobody likes to identify themselves as victims, least of all victims, because there’s no crown at the end of victimization. There isn’t anybody giving us a standing ovation. Nobody likes to identify as a victim. So, when somebody says, I’m being victimized by somebody. We, the society around them, need to say, “Okay, we believe you. How can we help you?” Anne: Absolutely, if you have to twist yourself in all kinds of ways to get someone to believe you, they are not safe. Kathy: Not a safe person, yeah. Anne: That’s a good one. If they have to check in with the other person. Or think, well, this is this side of the story. But you know, every story has two sides. Kathy: It takes two to tango! Yeah. Anne: It takes one to not tango. I mentioned this before when I was talking about how sometimes I talk to victims and they tell me that part of their story. And it includes some victim blaming or it includes some of the abuse that they’ve experienced that they don’t recognize is abuse. So they’re parroting the abuse. The Burden Of Proving Victimization Anne: Again, not their fault. They don’t understand what’s happening. They believe certain things about themselves due to the abuse. Especially if her husband has covert narcissist traits. And so their experience when they describe it, usually a therapist’s role is to validate that and help them move through that. So how do we validate their betrayal trauma harms and support victims and their live experience, while also educating them about abuse and what has happened to them? Kathy: And I think this goes back to a concept I was talking about earlier. I said, I have them share their experiences in their words to me, then I will ask permission. Would it be okay if I reframe this? You know, you’re telling me that he forces you to have relations when you’re feeling sick. Or when you’re not feeling up to feeling loving. Can I reframe that for you? In most states, that would be considered assault. Even if you’re married, or even if you’re in partnership. So if you’re not feeling up to having relations, if you’re feeling sick or tired. And you haven’t given consent, that is a form of assault. That’s many times how this conversation comes to me. Because the women I talk with tell me all kinds of examples of how their partner refused to take no for an answer. And they’re ticking off almost every checkbox regarding assault. And yet they won’t call it assault. So for me to say like, is it okay if I reframe this for you and give you my perspective on it? If they’re like, no. I had a survivor once who was angry with me because she absolutely 100% percent believed that she was codependent with her perpetrator. Reframing & Educating About Abuse Kathy: It was a Facebook conversation. I said, I’d like to reframe this for you. This is why codependency is problematic, it is a victim blaming concept. That victim blocked me after getting upset with me and explaining her reasonings and why it made sense to her. Sure, I make mistakes. It’s important that I acknowledge them. I needed to hear why that perspective was important to her. I still think it is appropriate to allow that reframing. So that they can start shifting their understanding, their lack of understanding leaves them in abuse. It may be for other people that they contact. It’s about making sure we’re gently educating as long as somebody has the capacity to hear it. If they don’t have that capacity yet, it’s okay to let it be for now. Just encourage them to get other perspectives and other education. Sometimes they hang on to that perspective. out of a survival mechanism or survival skill. And we don’t want to take away what is helping them survive. Anne: I can see better now that I am post abuse, but I remember being there. I remember people saying little things to me and me, like pushing it away or thinking that that wasn’t the case. Only to realize later, oh, that was it. And it was a survival mechanism for me. It is for all survivors. Kathy: Another reframe that I ask people to do a lot is that the concept of that idea of, well, that victim is lying to me. I’m not going to help her because she’s lying to me. I say to the person who’s saying that, the person who wants to be the helper, can we please reframe that and think about it, as she’s not ready to trust you yet? The Right To Edit Your Story Kathy: As opposed to she’s lying to me, and when I think of it that way, when I say this person isn’t ready to trust me yet, I can go back to them. And say, listen, I can understand that you don’t know if I’m trustworthy yet. If you don’t want to tell me something, it’s okay. If I ask you a question, it’s never to deny your experience or to challenge you. It’s only to make sure I fully understand what’s happening, so I can get you to the best help possible. But if you don’t trust me with information, it’s okay to keep it to yourself until you feel I am trustworthy. That just allows women to just like have this big burden roll off their shoulders. Like, she’s not going to accuse me of lying. Because I, as a helper, no matter how good my intentions are. Until they understand who I am and how I work, I don’t get the privilege of automatic access to their victimization story. It’s bold of me to think that I might. And it is important that victims have the right to edit their stories by how safe they are feeling in my presence. Kathy’s Website & Final Thanks Anne: Thank you so much for the work you do. You are incredible. And I appreciate you taking the time to share with us. Kathy will be back on the podcast, talking about a few other topics. We’ll talk about how kids become abusers aligned through the abusers, gaslighting and manipulation of the children. And also talk about the unique challenges, heartaches, and hardships of mothers accused of “parental alienation.” To maintain control and coercively control her and her children. We’ll cover those topics in a few months. So stay tuned, because she is an amazing advocate and has so much to share with you. Kathy: Thank you, Anne. You do amazing work, too.

Published: 7 January 2025

If your husband never apologizes, that’s a problem. But there’s an even bigger problem many people don’t talk about: if your husband apologizes, how do you know if it’s genuine? Especially if he has a history of lying. Here are five key patterns to watch for and how to tell whether his apology is truly genuine, especially if you’re considering reconciliation after infidelity. This applies whether you’re still married or not—and I’ll share a personal example from after my divorce later. 1. Does HIS APOLOGY FOCUs ON ONE Small MOMENT, WHILE IGNORING THE BIG PICTURE? My husband would get mad at me almost every single night over the smallest things. And then one morning he said, “I’m so sorry about last night.” But what about the 52 nights that came before that or the credit card I still didn’t know he had? He was apologizing for one leaf and I was living in a whole forest of issues. If your husband pressures you to accept an apology for one incident while ignoring his pattern of lying, manipulation, or harm…he’s not taking ownership of his problem. Notice what he leaves out. Omissions often tell you more than the apology itself. 2. IF YOUR HUSBAND APOLOGIZES, DO YOU STILL FEEL UNEASY?  I felt relief in the moment when he apologized, but worse later. In the moment I thought it was a breakthrough, like maybe I wasn’t gonna have to drag this marriage up a hill by myself anymore. But then later I’d be brushing my teeth thinking, Why did I have to beg him to apologize? Many women expect to feel relief after an apology, but if your husband has had a history of being dishonest and diminishing the impact of his behavior, that feeling of uneasiness is often a signal, not a personal flaw. Give yourself space to observe instead of deciding what it “means” right away. 3. IS HIS APOLOGY BACKED BY CONSISTENT BEHAVIOR?  My husband sometimes cried when he apologized, but he would never cry in the moment when I was really hurting. This one really got me because I realized that when I was trying to share my concerns with him he didn’t really care. He just wanted the conversation to end. So why is he empathetic now that he is apologizing? Sometimes it’s hard to tell if he’s truly sorry for what he did, or sorry he’s facing consequences. And improving communication can’t fix the impact of emotional abuse and infidelity, no matter how often you’re told it will. Watch his behavior, not his explanations. His actions will tell you the truth. 4. DOES HIS APOLOGY COME WITH PRESSURE TO RECONCILe? This sounded like, “I’m so sorry. Can I move back in now?” Or “I’m sorry. Are we done talking about this now?” That pressure was the tell that my husband’s apology wasn’t genuine. Many women are told: “If your husband apologizes, you should forgive him and move forward together.” But those are two different things. Forgiveness is something you can do for yourself. Reconciliation requires evidence of change. You can forgive and maintain distance. 5. DOES HIS APOLOGY RESPECT YOUR NEED FOR EMOTIONAL SAFETY?  My husband’s apologies gave me hope, but I didn’t realize hope was a manipulation tactic. True emotional safety and manufactured hope are not the same thing. If he’s finally telling you what you’ve always wanted to hear, it doesn’t mean you owe him anything and you don’t have to decide anything today. If you’re trying to make sense of his behavior—not just his words—take our free emotional abuse quiz for more clarity. Transcript: When Your Husband Apologizes, How Do You Know If It’s Genuine? Anne: So years ago, I recorded a podcast episode about how I receive a restitution letter in the mail, and my husband apologized. In the mail from my then ex husband after we were divorced. If you’ve ever received an apology from your husband or ex husband, it seems like he’s showing remorse. And you’re wondering, can my husband change, what does this mean? Is this genuine? This is the episode for you. If you need support in understanding if your husband is really changing, check out our Group Session Schedule. It’ll also give you a snapshot of how I felt years ago. I was still hurting and confused. Just a quick recap. Before we married, he lied to me and was abusive, but I wasn’t aware of it. Because he manipulated me and presented himself as somebody he wasn’t. Instead, I just thought he had an anger problem and needed to go to therapy. Escalating Abuse When Your Husband Apologizes And Tries to Make Restitution Anne: He said he would go to therapy. But continues to lie to me and yell in my face, two inches from my face. He continued to lie about his explicit material use. I believe now, he manipulated me and lied to me about his use our whole marriage. Still lying about it, not only to me, but also to large groups of people as he’s doing public speaking. Then, came his arrest for domestic violence. Then doing nothing to acknowledge what has happened at all. And, not trying to get back in the home, not trying to repent, not trying to take accountability, not being honest, and not being humble in any way. Then he files for divorce, claiming it’s because I’m not forgiving him or something like that. Now I want to tell you a little bit about what happens on the day my husband apologized for. In 2015, we spoke at UCAP. He and I were going to speak together about how he recovered from his addiction and how to do it successfully. However, both before and after the speech, his abusive behaviors were escalating. He put holes in a bunch of our walls. He broke his door. At that time, I thought, well, this is part of the recovery process. So we spoke at UCAP. Right after I said, “You’ve got to shut down your website”. I can’t do this with you anymore. This is a sham, and he got more and more angry. The Turning Point: Legoland Incident Anne: That summer we go to Legoland, and on the way there I am driving, he grabs my head in the car violently and screams at me to shut up in front of my children. I was so terrified that once we parked, I jumped out of the car with my kids and ran into the Legoland hotel. And I just sat there and cried for a while, and then handed my kids to my parents. I thought, well, I guess I can’t leave him in the car. So as I was walking back to the car to get him, I was praying out loud, like, please, I need a miracle. I need a miracle. I cannot do this anymore. The rest of the day at Legoland, he screamed at me in public, in front of my parents and a bunch of other people. It was awful. And on the way home, I was sobbing uncontrollably, still driving, just to try and get him to calm down and stop. I said, I want you to know that no matter how abusive and terrible you are to me, I will always be respectful to you. I’m sorry if I was not respectful today in confronting you about your abuse, more or less. I can’t remember exactly what it was, but it was something like that. And he looked at me with the most evil, look in his eyes and said good. How do I know you’ll never act like that again? He blamed me for HIS emotional abuse. There was no remorse, there was no anything. There’s no acknowledgement of me crying, I was taken aback by his response. I was horrified. So the rest of the trip, I tried to avoid him as much as possible. Understanding Restitution vs. Forgiveness When Your Husband Apologizes Anne: I slept in a separate bed. He wondered why he couldn’t be close to me, and why I didn’t want to kiss him. So before I read the so-called restitution letter he sent, where my husband apologized. I want to talk about the difference between what modern clergy and maybe therapists say about restitution. Which they frequently confuse with forgiveness. My church had their semi-annual conference. In conference to illustrate the “power of forgiveness,” one of the speakers shared a story. About a drunk driver who had killed a couple, a husband and wife. He shares this touching part of the story, where after the drunk driver is sentenced for manslaughter. The parents of the couple killed, and the parents of the drunk driver, broke down in tears and gave each other hugs in the hall of the courthouse. He wanted to show this as a beautiful moment of forgiveness. And as I listened to the story, I was like, this story of forgiveness has all the right elements. It has the element of justice, the element of truth, which is what makes forgiveness possible. Reconciliation wasn’t even on the table, because the drunk driver went to jail and the couple was dead. Even if the couple wasn’t dead, they didn’t need to reconcile because they didn’t live in the same house. There is no way that he would have a touching story of the “power of forgiveness.” If the parents of the drunk driver claimed, your son and your daughter, the ones killed, it’s their fault that our son was drinking. It’s their fault that this accident happened, and it’s their fault that now our son is in jail. Even though the story of forgiveness in the conference I heard is intended to motivate people to forgive. The Reality of Separation and Evil Anne: There are countless stories in the scriptures where God commands the righteous to separate from the wicked. And for some reason, clergy often doesn’t suggest the most likely place to separate yourself from someone who is wicked or abusive is in your own home. One woman who works in the anti-abuse sphere said, “I don’t believe in evil,” on her Instagram. And I could not disagree more. I believe in evil. I’ve seen it in my ex-husband’s eyes and in his face. He really genuinely looked possessed. His eyes were kind of glazed over. It was like he wasn’t even there. Or when he would verbally assault me, or when he would punch walls or yell. It was so scary. It was like those films where the victims know they’re not safe, screaming and yelling. Please stop, but no matter how much they plead for mercy or kindness, the bad guys refused. I want to give two analogies before I read this apology letter from my husband. Analogies to Understand Abuse Anne: The first is the analogy of a tree. Imagine your marriage and family is a beautiful oak tree, and you have spent years, years, and years planting it, digging around it and nourishing it. And then your husband starts hacking off random branches all the time, and you’re asking him to stop. You’re saying please, please don’t do that. I love this tree. It means a lot to me. Please don’t do that. And he just keeps doing it, and he’ll hack off a branch, and then he’ll say I’m so sorry I did that. I love you. I care about you. And the next thing, you know, there’s another branch on the driveway sitting there, and you’re like, what is going on? I thought we already talked about this. And then one day, in my case, he came and ripped the entire tree out. All that is left is a gaping hole. So that’s the first analogy I want to use. The second one is as if a murderer broke into my home at night, killed my family with a machine gun, and left my house in complete disarray. The walls have bullet holes all over, there’s blood all over the place, and walked out and did not acknowledge what happened, was not arrested, was not held accountable in any way. And then told people. Yeah, I just went to this home and then got attacked, and I am the victim in this situation. Okay, so those are the two analogies. When Your Husband Apologizes: Analyzing Its Meaning Anne: So the restitution letter I received validates he’s abusive. I can clearly see absolutely no change. I am not sure why he sent this. Either number one, someone broke up with him or he’d had a bad day, or he felt super bad that we were going on a trip and he couldn’t come with us. There’s that. If he wrote it of his own volition and didn’t tell anyone about it and is not using it as a, look, I wrote this restitution letter and she still won’t talk to me. And If he really genuinely wrote it and hasn’t used it to brag to other people as part of his story of being a “victim,” Then I can see that perhaps there’s some part of him that understands or can see the harm he’s caused, just a tiny, tiny part. If, on the other hand, clergy instigated this or a therapist or someone who said, well, she doesn’t talk to you. Maybe you need to write a restitution letter. So someone instigated it. So now he can say, well, I’ve written a restitution letter, and she still won’t talk to me. Then I don’t feel like this is any sign of him recognizing what he’s done wrong. So this is the letter I receive, in it my husband apologizes. Anne, our son informed me that you may be going to Legoland during your trip to California over spring break. I’m glad to hear that you are taking the children to California and possibly Legoland. I hope it is a safe and enjoyable vacation for all. I am writing to apologize for my negative and hurtful behavior. During that trip to California and Legoland in 2015. Your Husband Apologizes With A Token Gesture Anne: I acted in an irritable manner and said and did hurtful things during that vacation, which made it difficult for you and the rest of the family to enjoy that vacation. I am sorry. It’s hard to have the memories of that vacation overshadowed by the difficulties I caused. I hope you can forgive me and enjoy the upcoming trip. I have enclosed a $300 check as a token of my apology, in an effort to make some restitution for the difficulties I caused during that trip to California. Most sincerely, Chuck. His name is not Chuck, I am changing it to protect his anonymity. https://youtu.be/joi92r4w93k So let me talk about the $300 check first, even though he’s apologizing. He refused to give me $100,000 back in pre-marital assets. I used money from before our marriage. Money that my parents gave me, that my grandma gave me, and money that I had from a condo I owned to pay off his law school loans. That money I earned before we married. And he refused to give it back, which confused me so much because our whole marriage was a lie. So I expected him to at least be accountable for that and say, yeah, I will give you back the $100, 000 you had before we married, but he refused. So, I cashed the $300 check, but it means nothing to me without the full restitution for that $100, 000 in premarital assets. Including all the financial difficulties I have had due to his choices. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery we understand that abuse includes lying, manipulating, explicit material use, and infidelity of any kind. We’re throwing all these serious behaviors into the category of abuse, which is the only way we can look at it. When Your Husband Apologizes, Observe His Character Anne: At the time I got this restitution letter, I was observing from a safe distance to see if he would choose to change his character. If your wondering if an emotionally abusive husband will change, I’ve observed that it’s impossible to externally motivate an abusive man to change, especially because his exploitative privilege comes with so many rewards. What we see in our communities is that emotionally and psychologically abusive men will be reluctant to make significant changes, but they’re not reluctant to apologize or tell people that they’re going to make changes. They’re just reluctant to actually make the changes and how they relate to you. Because for him, it’s a transactional situation. And because it’s transactional for him. Persuasion, logic, pleading, begging, getting him in some men’s program. Even when he’s in the men’s program, he’s going to convince the therapist that he’s incredible and amazing. He won’t actually change his behavior, because then he’d lose his ability to exploit you. And that’s what a “relationship” is to him, it’s a transactionship. And so he’s like, what’s the point of being in a relationship with this person if I can’t exploit her? What would I get out of it? The Illusion Of Your Husband Changing: Performative Apolgies Anne: Because of that, most emotionally and psychologically abusive men, addicts as some people call them, don’t choose to rid themselves of all the privileges the abuse gives them. So, at the time, I’m looking at this letter and analyzing it to see if there’s any evidence that his character has changed since I talked to him last. This letter doesn’t even make restitution for anything. Even though my ex husband apologized, it doesn’t talk about him grabbing my head. I’m pretty sure he was using explicit material during that time, and doesn’t say anything about the lies or manipulation. It doesn’t even make restitution just for that one moment, let alone the whole tree, right? It doesn’t even make restitution for the one branch. He doesn’t admit fully his history of psychological, and physical abusiveness. For example, he was online dating and going to a singles congregation long before our divorce was final. Whereas I stayed true to my marriage vows the entire time until the divorce was final. He didn’t acknowledge that the abuse was wrong unconditionally. And he didn’t identify the justifications he used, including the various ways he blamed me. He didn’t admit he’d been counter parenting or talk in detail about why his behaviors were unacceptable, without slipping back into defending them. He didn’t acknowledge that his behavior was a choice, not a loss of control. So an abuser, they think, man, if she found out the truth, I would be toast. So to control the situation, I’m going to lie. That is abuse, right there. He didn’t talk in detail about the short and long-term impact his abuse has had, including fear, loss of trust, anger, without reverting to feeling sorry for himself, or talking about how hard the experience has been for him. When Husband Apologizes As A Weapon Anne: Again, he is not the victim here. The tree did not just randomly fall on him, as he would like others to believe. He ripped it out on purpose. This acting like the victim goes far with people who don’t know the truth, and that’s why they do it. One reason I know this restitution letter is not a sign of true repentance, or that my husband apologized in earnest. Is that I sent information about how we could make the children’s schedule more consistent to help them and their emotional stability. And Chuck wrote back and said, “My personal and professional life is more important, so no.” So he’s absolutely not willing to put the needs of his children ahead of his own needs. That’s another sign to me that he is absolutely not repentant. He is not changing. Most Betrayal Trauma Recovery clients say they often hear the abuser apologize. And we see patterns that apologies are part of psychological abuse. Abusers use apologies as a weapon. Because they’re transactional and think it’s an equation. They think, I say, I’m sorry. And that’s payment. Then what I get back is that she can’t say anything else about it. And she can’t expect anything of me after that. Like they think of it as some sort of transaction. Because the abuser’s exploitative privilege is the heart of his character. He’s going to think I’m such a great guy, because I said those words, most men would never even apologize. So she owes me because I’ve stooped so low as to say the words, I’m sorry. The True Nature of Abusive Character Anne: Abusers also think. I can act like I’m changing. So that equation I was talking about or making a show of doing this differently a few times. And then that will earn me the ability to just keep doing it. Like they think they need to perform, rather than realize they need to change their character. We have to realize that if they actually wanted to change, they wouldn’t be that way in the first place. The character they have now is what they chose through every little choice they make up until this point. And so they actually became who they want to be. This is the most overlooked point about abusers, that an abuser has an abusive character, because he developed it through choice after choice. If he’s not internally motivated to change, because he hasn’t been in the past. I mean, this is who he has become. Then he criticizes you for not realizing how he’s changed. Even though he hasn’t changed at all. My husband performs a performance of an apology. For a few weeks or months, or sometimes even years. And then he’ll criticize you for not trusting that. His changes don’t last. They criticize us for considering him capable of behaving abusively. Even though he has done it in the past. He’s like, I would never do that, even though he has done it. Something like, well, I would never lie to you. When he is lying to you. He might remind you about the bad things he would have done in the past but isn’t doing anymore. Which amounts to a subtle threat. What True Repentance Looks Like When Your Husband ApologIZES Anne: He doesn’t realize that criticizing you, you don’t believe he’s changed just because he’s apologizing. Or that you kind of doubt what’s going on is another sign that he’s abusive, a healthy person would be like, that makes sense. I get it. I understand. Now in my ex husband’s case, if he fully repented. It would look like I’m going to start working on repaying the $100, 000 of premarital assets that you would never have given me had I not lied to you from the beginning. Basically, he needs to come replant that tree, refill in the dirt with beautiful topsoil full of nourishing vitamins for that tree. He needs to water it, fertilize it, take care of it, grow it and protect that tree. That kind of restoration doesn’t happen quickly. It takes years—sometimes decades. It also answers a question many women are quietly asking: how long does it take to heal from emotional abuse? Healing and rebuilding trust follow that same timeline. They can’t be rushed, and they can’t be created with words alone. That’s what real restitution would look like. When I received that letter, I felt a sense of peace. I knew I was doing the right thing. The Alternate Reality Of The Abuser Anne: I don’t know what this letter is or means, except that he seems to be living in an alternate reality. With the two analogies I gave, this is as if there’s still this gaping hole in the ground and the tree is still gone. And he’s sending me a letter with a tiny stick in it saying, Remember that time I knocked off a tiny little branch on the north side of the tree? It was the branch that was three branches up. I’m so sorry about that little branch. Here is a branch. And he’s not acknowledging the giant tree he destroyed or the gaping hole left. Similarly, with the analogy of the murderer, he’s saying something like, “You know that one time I came into your home?” I am so sorry that I forgot to wipe off my feet. And this is to make restitution for the dirt I left on your carpet. I am so sorry for the dirt I left on your carpet that night in 2015. This is not what a restitution letter, when a husband’s apologizes, looks like. Validating Boundaries and Moving Forward Dispite Insincere Apologies from My Husband Anne: I don’t know what this is, but it totally validates my boundaries. And I will continue to hold them until I see full restitution. It’s been years since I received that restitution letter, and I’ve never received another one. That was the only apology I ever got about any of it. And he continued to abuse me and the kids. Undermine their medical care, undermine everything, for years after that. So, I don’t know why he wanted to say he was sorry for that particular specific thing. In 2015, he was careful to be very specific about it and send a $300 check. But, so, that’s how you can tell if the apology is real. Like some of those things that I talked about. Does he do those things? So listen to this, when you receive an apology and see like, wait a minute, is he really apologizing or is this something else? I talk a lot about this and other safety strategies in The Living Free Workshop.

Transcribed - Published: 31 December 2024

If you’ve typed “I dislike my husband” into a search bar, you probably didn’t do it lightly. Dislike usually follows a buildup of emotional neglect, manipulation, broken promises, or repeated lies. Often, you still care about him and even love him. But something inside you feels shut down. What makes it even more confusing is when he says he’s changing. Maybe he apologized, started therapy, joined a recovery group, or stopped yelling. This efforts probably seem sincere. And yet, you still feel irritated or sometimes even repelled. Why Disliking Your Husband May Signal Something Deeper If the fact that you dislike your husband keeps rattling around your head, most women end up asking painful questions like… Why do I dislike my husband when he’s trying? Is this normal resentment? Am I too unforgiving? Or is my intuition picking up on something deeper? In emotionally abusive relationships, temporary behavior shifts can look like progress. The apologies may increase. He may use therapy language or spiritual language. But real change is measured by consistent patterns over time, not short bursts of compliance. It’s Okay to Dislike Him Even if He’s Getting Therapy If you’re wondering if you dislike him because he’s emotionally abusive, that may be the case. And that’s a really good reason. To discover if you’re currently being emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse test. Feeling like “I dislike my husband” may not mean you’ve fallen out of love. It may mean your nervous system no longer feels safe. This is exactly what we walk through in the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, how to discern the difference between if your husband can really change into someone you could enjoy being around and how to evaluate emotional safety without pressure to stay or leave. Whether victims stay married, separate from, or divorce a man they dislike, boundaries are absolutely essential in protecting women and their children from further harm. BTR.ORG Supports Victims Of Emotionally Abusive Husbands For women who choose to stay married wondering “can my husband change into someone I like?” We believe that as women educate themselves about trauma and abuse, they are better equipped to make informed decisions and become empowered to begin their journeys to healing. Tune in to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn more about the real, valid reasons you probably have to dislike your husband. Transcript: I Dislike My Husband Anne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. A member of our community, Cece is here to share her story about the emotional whiplash so many women experience after betrayal, when apologies and effort create hope, but something still feels off. How do you know if he’s truly changing? If you’re sitting with that quiet tension, thinking, “I dislike my husband, but don’t want to feel this way.” So what am I supposed to do now?” You’re not alone. So Cece, you’ve experienced this whiplash, and you’re gonna talk about your story today. Welcome. Cece: Hi Anne, thanks for having me on. Anne: I’m so grateful for women who share their stories. For many listeners who quietly wonder, “I dislike my husband… but he says he’s changing,” conversations like this matter. I’m honored to talk with you about how to tell whether an emotionally abusive husband can truly change. So Cece, you’re divorced now, but let’s start at the beginning—when you first met your husband. How did you feel about him at that time? Cece: So I went to a Christian college, and there was a lot of the purity culture stuff going on there. I had grown up with an alcoholic dad and was kind of a scapegoat in my family of origin. So my self-esteem was at the bottom of the barrel, unfortunately. But he and I were friends, and we got to be friends the first week of my sophomore year in college. He was a freshman. He was actually studying to become a youth pastor. So when I met him, I thought, oh, he’s this nice Christian guy. He had a girlfriend at the time, and I was not interested in him like that. We really did hit it off as friends. Early “Green Flags” That Later Made Me Question Everything Cece: And I didn’t see any red flags at that point in his character. Interestingly enough, he was dating a girl in my hall. It was actually an abusive relationship where she was abusing him. Which made me think he could never be that way towards someone else. Anne: Really quick, what made you think she was abusing him as you’re observing this? Cece: I would see the way she would talk to him, and she actually hit him a couple of times. So it was very serious. And other people were witnesses to those things even when I wasn’t, so… Anne: The reason why I ask that is that we don’t know what he was doing to her. Cece: Right. Anne: A lot of times when you see a woman doing that. It could be that she’s resisting abuse, and you don’t know what happened before that. Cece: That is possible, but just from what I observed, it seemed like he was just a people pleaser. And he was always just bowing down to her every whim. That’s what is looked like from the outside. Once they broke up, he actually pursued me. And I just was caught off guard at that point. And thought, oh, he’s one of my best friends, let me just think about this. But he waited a long time for me, respectful of all my boundaries. Especially the physical boundaries were really important to me. Because I knew I wanted to wait, even for engagement. Because I had some bad experiences in the past in High School. where guys pushed boundaries. And he didn’t do that. So I thought, oh, that’s a green flag. I Dislike My Husband, Does That Mean He’s Emotionally Abusive or That I’m Burnt Out? Cece: I guess a couple of the red flags I saw before we were married were emotional immaturity. Which I didn’t know at the time. I think just because I couldn’t even spot the red flags having grown up in an abusive home. I thought, oh, this is how guys are. And at one point he called me out of the blue and was like, “Hey, I don’t have any food. I need you to take me to the store.” I said, “Oh, well I have something going on today or I have to study or something.” And he would not take no for an answer. I said, “Can’t you get someone else to take you? Can’t you call another friend?” “Oh no, you have to take me or else.” He just really put so much guilt on me. And said it was a food emergency. Why It’s Okay To Dislike Your Husband Anne: It’s a food… I’m sorry. That’s funny. It’s a food emergency. Before marriage, you didn’t know he would be abusive. Plus everyone says will couples counseling work. CeCe: right. And nobody could take him but me. So I just went ahead and did it, but I felt really just. I think it was love bombing, but honestly, it didn’t seem like he was trying to manipulate at that point. It seemed like he was immature, I guess. And so, you know, he would mirror me a lot too. I was into poetry, and I think he just took all my interests in. You know, and thought, oh wow, she’s such a cool girl. I want to be interested in everything she is. And it made me think, we’re into the same things, like, I think we’re gonna be the perfect match. For many women, “I dislike my husband” starts much later, after the mirroring fades and the control begins. Experiencing Love Bombing & Mirroring Anne: Mirroring is the worst. I did not realize it back when I was dating before I got married. So I would be like an open book, and men would be like, me too, me too. Now I like to sit back. Well, not that I date, I do not date. So don’t get that impression. But when I meet people, I like to sit back and ask them what they think first. Because I know I’m not going to mirror them. I’m going to be like, cool. I’m glad you like that. I don’t like it, but congratulations. I’m not going to be like, me too, if I hate it. Cece: Yes, for sure. And he did tell me, actually, before marriage, that he had an online explicit material problem. Now, I did not know what that meant. I thought, well, you know, guys struggle with lust. That’s what I’d been led to believe. So, it’s a struggle for him, but I think he can overcome it. So I was very naive at that point. Anne: So you married at some point. When do things start to go south? Like where you recognize, oh, something feels off. Worrying If your emotionally abusive husband can change or not? Cece: We married right after graduation. It was about a month after we were sitting on the couch, and housework was already an issue. It was like he was, he would leave all these messes just for me to clean up. He treated me like a maid and stuff. I thought, well, I guess this is just a sacrifice I have to make being married. But I was frustrated. When Things Changed After Our Wedding, I realized “I Dislike My Husband” Cece: And so we’re sitting on the couch, and he spills this bag of trail mix on the couch. I was at my breaking point that day, just with all his messes. And I was like, well, I guess I’ll get the Dustbuster and clean this up. And he hit me with a flip flop. Isn’t that crazy? He took his flip flop and hit my leg and made this red welt on it. Anne: Not like, gently. Cece: No, I mean, it was like he wanted to punish me. And immediately, I just said, we need to go to our pastor about this. We have to tell somebody, I am not going to put up with this, because I knew it was only going to get worse. That was a wake up call. So we went to our pastor, and he said, “You need to go to anger management.” And he set him up with an anger management class. And then he said, “You need to have a plan for where you’re going to go if he continues to do this. You know, you need to figure out a neighbor or somebody you can stay with immediately.” Anne: You’re resisting abuse. Immediately, you’re going for help. You’re like, this is not right. So you’re doing your job, which is resisting abuse. So the person you go to for help says, “Put yourself in the position where this could happen again and wait and see if he will change. And have a plan, if it does.” Rather than, don’t put yourself in this position again, oh. Cece: Definitely, my husband went to the class, and he was actually able to largely stop the physical abuse. There were a few more rage incidents. Anger Management Looked Like Change—But It Wasn’t Real Change Where he would pull back the shower curtain if I was in the shower and yell at me, or he would just restrain me, things like that. And I would fight back sometimes, but I quickly realized, this is dangerous. I’m not gonna fight back. Then, after learning some techniques, I guess he stopped that form of abuse. And I think I was confused, because I thought, well, the abuse has stopped, we’re good. And he’s becoming a new man and making changes. Soon after, I got pregnant with my first child that November. So we married in June, and then in November, I got pregnant. At that point, I was teaching, I was working full time, and I was so tired. You know how in your first trimester, it’s just you’re wiped out. And so, he was still being a slob, and he was actually in school, going through a different program at this point. And just working part time. So he was home most of the day. He wouldn’t do any laundry. He wouldn’t do any cleaning. I was like holding down the fort basically with all the housework and working full time. Plus dealing with pregnancy and exhaustion. I remember I was folding a load of laundry one day, just crying because I thought I had no help at this point. And I just felt so alone and lost. But I also had a D-Day at that point, and I can’t remember what exactly it was, but I think I did find online explicit material again. At this point I’m starting to think my husband won’t be able to change his harmful behaviors. Discovery Days, “Recovery Talk,” and Why I Dislike My Husband Anne: Well, I’m going to pause you, right? If someone listens to this podcast for the first time, I just want to define D-Day quickly. D-Day stands for Discovery Day. But clearly it’s also a double meaning, because it’s the day your world sort of falls apart. So you’ve got a D-Day in that you’re discovering explicit material. Cece: So, some people have, like, one major D-Day. I had dozens, probably. And I think that was the death by a thousand cuts. At that point, I had actually heard from one of my friends. Her husband was in SA which is a program for men with addictions, and she was in S-Anon, which was the complimentary program for wives. She told me how much it helped both of them. She thought her emotionally abusive husband had changed. And I thought, okay, maybe there’s hope here. I mean, he was just totally checked out. It seemed like being selfish, not caring what I had to say. And I said, “You need to go to S. A. and you need a sponsor.” And he did it, so I thought, okay, things are going in the right direction. But although he would pay lip service to it a lot, telling me how much he had learned and how much it helped him, I did not see any changes in his actions. So it was discouraging, especially just seeing how he was putting basically zero effort. Anne: Um, so this whole time you’re resisting the abuse, you’re trying to get help, you’re trying to figure it out. In your efforts to resist abuse, did you reach out for help with clergy or with couple therapy? Anything like that? I Dislike My Husband: Wondering What He’s Really Doing When I’m Not Around Cece: Yeah, I was trying to get help from the ladies in S-Anon, but it didn’t resonate with me. There was one incident that stuck out to me that year. I came home unexpectedly from work. And I walked in on him and I was like, what the heck is going on? He says, “No, I swear I’m not talking to someone. I just, I’m being dumb, this was just stupid. I was just trying to figure out what size I am. And in that moment, I remember thinking, Who did I even marry? Who is this man? I drove back to school in tears and was completely checked out the rest of the day. That was a turning point. I started realizing I didn’t actually know who my husband was when I wasn’t around. That’s when the thought began forming quietly in the background: I dislike my husband. Not because of one moment, but because of the growing confusion and secre Anne: Being obsessed with your penis size is definitely a sign of addiction. So, of course, you didn’t know that at the time, but like, how alarming is that? He obviously wasn’t changing his abusive behaviors. CeCe: It definitely was. Like many other incidents, I just thought I had to make this work somehow, even though it became more and more traumatic. I didn’t even know who he was or what he was doing when I was not around. Anne: And knowing that was how you were resisting, you’re resisting any way that you know how. But you don’t know how to define it. Cece: Yeah, that’s true. I Dislike My Husband: Starting Marriage Counseling With False Hope Anne: Realize that you were trying to figure it out the entire time, and then you run into these roadblocks all the time. So when people ask like, why do I dislike my husband, why didn’t you just get out? Be like, I was trying to get help, but I went to a therapist, and the therapist told me to communicate better. So, It’s so hard. What do you think is going on at this time? In your efforts to make yourself safe? And wondering if your husband will change? What are you telling yourself? Cece: I think at that point, I was telling myself he’s got a serious problem. He needs somebody to get through to him, and I hope it’s his sponsor or counselor at that point. Because we started going to individual and marriage counseling. With our marriage counselor, it seemed like she would have been helpful. But she never got to the root of the problem. I don’t blame her, because I don’t think she was informed about what was going on. There was one session that I just remember her talking about trust and how important that is. I was like, we need to go for more of this because she had been talking about fondness and admiration. It was like this kind of triangle and I can’t remember who came up with that, but it was like a couple’s triangle where you were getting closer together and closer to God and you had to go up the triangle. But I was thinking we’re not even at the bottom right now because of how he’s actively destroying our marriage. Counseling Didn’t Help My Husband Change Cece: Yeah, I definitely did not feel helped by that. With my individual counselor, I think it was helpful to start unraveling my family of origin stuff. Cause I thought I would have saved my marriage at all costs. I don’t want my trauma to be a factor in this. I don’t want to get in the way of anything we’re doing together. My marriage was my number one priority the whole time. And so I thought I needed to heal from my past. Anne: We have found that most marriage therapists don’t get to the heart of the problem. And then even if they do, let’s pretend like the therapist. Is like, okay, he’s abusive. The solution is also not going to work, because they say, okay, why are you abusive? And they’ll give reasons. Oh, my childhood trauma. Instead of saying no, there are people who experienced childhood trauma and they’re not abusive. So no, that’s not why you’re abusive. Oh, this happened. No, that’s not the reason. You chose this. So therapy isn’t good for abusers. Their choices over time to have created this type of character and to give them validation. Like, now it makes sense that you’re abusive because of your childhood trauma. But now let’s not be abusive anymore. That’s not what they need. They just dig themselves deeper and deeper. Instead of realizing, I made choices over time based on entitlement. I have a thinking problem that is not due to anything that happened to me. I am just a misogynistic, exploitative abuser, and I need to change. Even if you did get to the root of the problem, they’re abusive. I Dislike My Husband: Why Emotional Safety Must Come Before Deciding If He’ll Change Anne: How would you help him with that? By validating his childhood trauma because you had childhood trauma. Were you abusive? No, did you lie? No, so the whole therapy thing for an abuser does not make sense. Cece: Right, and if somebody had told me that I was living with abuse, it would have made so much sense to me. Like I could have figured things out so much faster. I remember during our marriage counseling, I told the counselor this. I said, “I’m not suicidal, but I honestly wish one of us would die so that I could get out of this misery.” Thinking, I dislike my husband, and then immediately feeling guilty for even having that thought. Good wives don’t feel that way. So I assumed I must be the problem. Anne: Yeah, that’s very common. What did the counselor say? Cece: She just empathized with me and said, “Oh yeah, this is really serious.” https://youtu.be/oeMVZ5334VE Anne: Did she say, you are abused? Cece: Never, when my oldest was one, I got pretty sick. Because my immune system was not good at that point, just with all the stress. During that illness, I remember having this sudden clarity, like this is not of God, what’s going on. And I believe He spoke to me in that moment, when I felt so physically terrible, somehow I could hear the Holy Spirit better. And, He was like, This is not what I want for your life. This is not a marriage that glorifies me, that is what I believe the Holy Spirit told me. I just remember thinking, okay, I need to come up with a plan, and not try to get him to change. More D-Days & Emotional Withdrawal, Awakening & Planning Cece: I was so ashamed. I didn’t want to return to my family of origin. I didn’t want to rely on them for any help. And I was also thinking, there are so many people who supported our marriage. What would they think if I separated from him? So I just felt stuck. We eventually got back to the status quo, and I got pregnant with baby number two. I did have more D-days after that. There was one specifically at a friend’s house. We were having a Superbowl party there, and I just grabbed his phone to look something up. It was just, I wasn’t even thinking. And I saw that he had searched this girl’s name. In the search bar, and I just snapped at him. I said, What the heck is this? And pulled him outside. I was so mad, and he just had this way of placating me, I think, whenever I would find stuff. So he just groveled, basically. He was like, I’m so sorry. I’m struggling right now. It made me feel empathetic towards him, because I thought, well, he just has this problem. This kept me stuck in a pattern of waiting for him to change. So I started to feel myself pulling away emotionally and I’m like “I dislike my husband,” of course. Anne: You were resisting. Cece: Yeah. Anne: That I just have this problem, and I can’t stop the eliciting of empathy and almost pity. Abusers don’t mind it when people pity them. Like I hate it. If people pity me, I’m like, oh, I’m fine. Leave me alone. It’s not something that I enjoy. It feels bad to me, but they’re like, Oh, good. And I think it’s because they use it to manipulate people, it’s gross. Changing Churches & Hoping Things Will Improve Cece: For sure, so I wasn’t sure how much longer this could last at that point. I knew I’d always wanted a bunch of kids and to live the stay at home mom life. But I dislike my husband and I started to realize that maybe our marriage was not going to last. I thought it, it’s got an expiration date at some point. Especially, I can’t keep having kids with him when he’s doing this, but I wanted more at the same time. Probably the biggest thing that happened that year was that we changed churches. We just didn’t agree with some of the stuff they were doing at our church. So we wanted to change churches. And we ended up at a super conservative Baptist church. It felt safe there. I had stopped going to my S-Anon meetings, and I had started to look into more traditional marriage materials. Not anything super fundamentalist, but more complementarian ideas. I thought, wow, maybe I can at least improve my marriage. Even if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, I can’t get him to change. At least maybe I can have a halfway decent life if I follow these rules. Waiting For Change When I Dislike My Husband Anne: So at the time you’re thinking maybe complementarianism is the answer. Cece: Yes, all the women there were stay at home homeschooling moms, like I was, so I thought I fit in here. I got into the trad wife kind of movement. And started following all those social media accounts, like baking bread and gardening. I think looking back, that was a flight response where I was trying to escape the situation almost. Anne: You’re still resisting it because you’re thinking, if I do this, it will stop it, which is a form of resistance. Cece: Yeah, if I dislike my husband, maybe I can survive if I live my life largely separate from him. I would be working 13-14 hour days at home doing stuff. Because I loved hosting holidays, decorating the house. And making it super shiny and clean, just because I was trying to keep myself occupied. And keep myself fulfilled doing stuff. Anne: You’re trying to thrive in the sphere that you think you have power over. So if you can’t be the best stockbroker, because you’re not a stockbroker, you’re like, I’m going to be the best host. I’m going to be the best homeschooling mom. You’re trying to thrive in whatever sphere you can. Your waiting to see if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you want to give him a chance. And they’re also promising things. They’re saying, hey, if you treat a man this way, he’ll treat you well. If you have dinner on the table, if the house is clean, if you give him intamacy, that’s what men want. And so this is the answer to your problems. They’re also suggesting this is a way out. I Dislike My Husband: How Boundaries Protect Women and Children From Emotional Abuse Cece: Yes, this was when I started setting serious boundaries around intimacy. I was like, if I’m just gonna live here and be a house slave. I’m not a wife anymore. It seemed gross when I didn’t want to do it. That was a whole other thing. It was like he would would start a fight. Then I would be so confused, because I wouldn’t be in the mood. And then he’d be like, you’re never in the mood. And I’m like, you just started a fight with me! It was like he was covertly withholding from me. And that was disappointing to me, honestly. Anne: Also, making it your fault that he didn’t want to with you, because he was busy using and masturbating, and whatever else he was doing. He doesn’t seem like he truly cares about making a change. It’s impossible to figure out how to live with a husband you don’t trust. Cece: Yes, and I figured that out after I got out. I could probably count on my fingers the number of times we did. But I got pregnant one of those times. Not on purpose. I was excited to have a boy and It was a time of hope in my life. It seemed like he started to make changes at that point too. Because I read a book that was helpful for breaking spiritual strongholds, and it seemed to help me in my life. I Dislike My Husband: Another D-Day and the Numbness That Followed Cece: He read it, and he seemed to want to change after that. He was much more intentional with me, actually wanting to spend time with me. Instead of doing his own thing all the time. Then when I was 25 weeks pregnant, I had another D-day, and I saw he was looking up a girl on Instagram, and I thought. What is going on? I mean, I thought we were good now. Apparently not. So after that, I was just existing and numb. And thought, he is just gonna do this no matter what. So it was this new level of having to accept that I dislike my husband and it was super depressing. So then it was Christmas, and I was doing my housewife thing. We had family over, I was trying to clean the house. He was just sitting on his butt doing nothing. I could tell he was a new level of checked out. I didn’t know why, but my intuition told me something. He wouldn’t come to bed with me ever, he would stay up until 3AM. And just this thought creeped into my mind, could he be cheating in real life? But then the other part of me was like, he would never do that. I was confused. I got him some lingerie for Christmas, thinking maybe I can rekindle our romance. So I put it on, and he did not even look at me. He was just bored. And I was thinking, if he’s not attracted to me at all, we’ve got serious issues. That was the turning point. Discovering BTR & Eye-Opening Stories Cece: I did start listening to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast at that point, and it was honestly a little too much for me at first. I just had to take a long time to digest everything. So that was a good resource for me. And I started gradually listening to it more. I had been starting to follow on Facebook for a month or so, because I was at the end of my rope. It was just eye-opening to read all the stories there, and I thought, oh, this is my story. And just the fact that these guys did not give up explicit material for any extended period. They would keep finding stuff over and over, even when they thought their husbands were in good recovery. Anne: Can you talk about why it was a little too much for just a second? Was it too painful to hear other people’s stories, or you just didn’t feel hope? Or that seemed like for so many women that their husbands didn’t change. Cece: I thought you were a little too feminist for me. I don’t think that now, but I did think that before. I thought, well, you know, not necessarily the guests, but like, Anne is so honest. It’s a compliment, but I just thought you were so hard hitting. With the fact that this is abuse, and these men will do what they’re going to do. I’m like, well, yeah, I dislike my husband, but some of them might want to change. Anne: So at the time we were like, Anne is too feminist. She’s kind of too extreme in her, this is abuse stance-ish. Cece: Right. Anne: That is true. Many people think that about me, and I’m like, yeah, it’s true. Confronting My Husband, From Trad Wife To BTR Cece: Yeah, just being a trad wife and starting to listen to your content was, I mean, it was, it was so good. It was what I needed. Anne: Going from trad wife to BTR.ORG was like whiplash, yeah. Cece: Right, I think I felt like a chandelier had just fallen from the ceiling on top of me when I thought about my marriage. This has crashed down, and I don’t even know what to do. So, I sat my husband down and gave him the choice between me or explicit material, and I was like, this is it. This has gone on long enough, and I was totally serious. I was crying and I said, “This is a crap sandwich either way.” That’s what I told him. And I said, “I can’t believe I brought three babies into the world with you if I have to just leave.” And I said, “So you’ve got to quit.” He actually did a disclosure. I don’t know if it was a full disclosure, because we didn’t do a polygraph or anything. And I know polygraphs aren’t the be all end all either. Anne: This is an addiction therapist? Cece: Well, eventually we went to one of those. But this was before we had our appointment with them. So he just wanted to do it. He said, “I have to tell you everything.” I got to get it off my chest. Anne: This is a non-therapeutic one, he’s just, like, gonna tell you. Maybe, if he doesn’t want to change, at least he’s being honest. Disclosure & Accountability Cece: I thought, okay, let’s just sit down after the kids went to bed. I know I needed to know everything. And found out he was playing explicit video games on the TV when the kids could have walked in any minute. I was like, wow, I need to get myself and my kids out of this situation if he continues to do this. This is crazy. So I was nauseated and had to stop partway through, but I wanted to know everything. We came back after that, and I found out a lot of stuff. So I wrote up this contract. It wasn’t official or anything, but it just said, I promise to like fully provide if things don’t work out. And continue to pay for everything they need, and let her continue to homeschool and support her. So he signed the contract, and we also put accountability software on his devices, like, so I could see everything he was doing. Anne: Part of me thinks, this might be why you didn’t like listening to me in the podcast in the beginning, but here we go. Part of me thinks you said, okay, explicit material or me. He was like, I’m going to tell her everything. And then she’s going to kick me out. And when you didn’t do that, he was like, shoot, now I got to lie to her again. Cece: That’s possible. Anne: Because why would he tell you at that point, and not at a different point? Why does he just volunteer it? CeCe: I don’t know. Anne: That’s my thought that he thought, “I’m going to tell her everything. She’ll be so disgusted. She’ll be like, you’re obviously choosing explicit material. I’m done.” He’s trying to tell me that he’s not going to change. I Dislike My Husband: I Was Done With Betrayal, But He Relapsed Again Anne: But instead, your husband won’t stop lying, because for some reason, they cannot just be like, you know what? I want to use. Cool, let’s get divorced. Like I’ve never seen an abuser do that. If you’re listening and thinking, I’m going to confront him and tell him it’s either explicit material or me. He will always choose you, because he’s going to look terrible if he chooses explicit material. Y So he’s never going to do that. It’s a good way to try to resist abuse, but abusers don’t work like that. They’re always going to lie because abusers always have to manage their image. Cece: That is true. I will say this is the first time I think there was any force behind my boundaries. Because I was kind of bluffing the other times. I didn’t have it in me to leave, but the point was, I was done. I was like an animal caught in the trap, wanting to chew off its own leg. So he seemed to change for five months. And it seemed like he was actually repenting and like wanting to have a relationship with me. Anne: Maybe if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you could stay. Cece: It went from him having no interest in me to wanting to be close, but it was like a pendulum swing like, Oh no, please don’t go. I had just been through the ringer and couldn’t handle any more betrayal. But five months later, he relapsed. He did a drip disclosure. He told me part of the truth and then more came out. And that was doubly traumatic. In that moment, the thought returned stronger than ever: I dislike my husband—not because I’m unforgiving, but because I’m exhausted from cycles that never truly end. Taking A Two Week Break At Mom’s Cece: I zoned out, staring in his face when he told me this. I could barely handle it. Basically, you shouldn’t be my accountability partner, you’re my wife, and need to get back in your place. I thought, wow, it was 180 from what he said before. He said, I’ve not taken my role as a husband seriously, and I need to humble myself. Anne: It sounded as if he could change. Cece: Then it was like, get back in your place, woman. Right after that, it was so crazy. I was like, I dislike my husband. We’re not doing this. I kicked him out of our room and told him he needed to sleep in the guest room. He got in bed with me and would not get out. I was like, get out. And I knew it would create a toxic situation for our kids if we were sitting there yelling. I thought, I have to get out of here. So I went to my mom’s for two weeks. She is the one family member I am close with. I reached out to his accountability people. Just like, my husband is not okay. I need you to check up on him. He has a brother, he and his wife were on my side this whole time. Which was a blessing, and I still talk with them. His brother called and said, “You have to confess to your wife what you did.” He called me on FaceTime and told me he was doing the video games again. I thought there is something more. I mean, his eyes just went black. It was like a demonic kind of thing, which I couldn’t have explained until experiencing it. It was wild, it seemed like his soul was gone at that point. Knowing My Emotionally Abusive Husband Won’t Change: Kicking Him Out Cece: I had these panic attacks at different times. It was the weirdest thing, it was almost like I dislike my husband. He came to visit the kids, and it was awful. I felt this strong urge that I needed to get away from him. I told him he needed to move out before I came back to town. There was verbal abuse in front of the kids, and I knew he couldn’t be in the house. My oldest, she drew a picture of us shouting at each other, and it said, “Mommy and Daddy are not getting along.” That broke my heart. I thought we needed to be apart, so he moved out. When I returned to town, we set an appointment with an addiction therapist he went to an individual counselor. When I went to his counselor with him, I was so desperate to be believed. I was talking fast, please believe me. This is happening, and he’s like, why are you acting like this? Looking back, he should have known that this was an abuse situation. It was obvious I panicked trying to tell the story. And I said, “I just want someone to believe me.” Anne: If your emotionally abusive husband could change, he wasn’t Cece: It was bad. I was finding stuff. I found videos he watched, different social media accounts. So now he’s got an accountability partner from the church, which was the assistant pastor. Which was a total joke, because I thought okay, nobody does better research than a betrayed wife. This is crazy pathetic. He thinks he can help him. And I have my own suspicions about the assistant pastor and what he’s into. He thought your husband could change. The Church’s Role Turns To Blame Cece: But I found all this stuff, and the people from church wanted to sit down with me. The pastor and assistant pastor and their wives were there. And the pastor says, “I think your husband is doing well.” It seems like he’s taking things seriously. And I said, “You want me to show you his accounts?” I said, “This accountability partner stuff is a joke. The only person who knows what he’s up to is me. And he’s up to no good.” I wanted him to go to rehab. That was my line in the sand. I said, “I will not consider getting back together unless he goes to rehab.” At first they were on my side. They’re like, yeah, maybe he needs rehab. But then the assistant pastor turned it back around on me towards the end of the meeting. Asking me, why do you feel the need to be so controlling? Saying, if your emotionally abusive husband will change, it’s up to you. It was awful. I knew I needed to stop going to that church. I just cut off communication with them. Thanks to what I’ve learned on this podcast largely. Because I thought, oh, this is going the same way as everybody else’s churches. So I’m grateful for what I had learned at that point. Anne: What are you thinking about Betrayal Trauma? Cece: I was thinking I am all ears at this point. Anne: If you’re like, should I get services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery? The betrayal trauma support group near me was incredible. They take a woman where she is. They don’t push women or their agenda. They’re like, I’m here to help you get to safety, and figure out if your emotionally abusive husband will change. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Helps Women Get To Safety Anne: How do you want to do that? Everything you’ve done in the past is resisting abuse. How do you want to move forward? I’ll talk to victims in real life. They’ll come to my house because they’re part of my community. At church or something. So me in real life. I’m looking at this person in the eyes. And usually they don’t love it. They’re like, this seems too extreme. But almost a hundred percent of the time they return six months to a year later. And they’re like, if I had done that, I would be in such a better position now. I always look at them with empathy, give them a hug, and say, “I am you.” I did that exact same thing. And I was like, oh no, I’m going to do the addiction recovery thing for a while. I’m going to go to couple therapy. It’s almost like you have to try it for yourself to realize that it’s not going to work. When I first started BTR.ORG, I thought, Oh, I can cut that off of the pass. I can be like, don’t do it. That is what I do. But I’ve come to realize that because it’s your marriage, because you want to resist through saving your marriage. And because all of us care that we almost just need to know for ourselves. So that stage of trying is an important stage that most victims will go through. And it’s not our fault, because the manipulation is so intense from everywhere. From the abuser, clergy and therapists, it’s hard to be like, okay, I’m going to go against clergy, therapists, and my family. That’s a really hard place to be. Can you talk about that for a little bit? Letting Go of Hoping He Would Change and Finding Safe Support When I DisLike My Husband Cece: It was hard to feel like my entire church had turned against me. I was just the outcast. My pastor’s wife was part of our homeschool co-op. I just felt like she was looking down her nose at me every time I was there with my kids. By that point, I had already been quietly wrestling with the thought, I dislike my husband — and I felt ashamed of it. They are not trauma informed or giving me any kind of good advice. They told me that I needed to suffer well and I was just done at that point. I ended up going to my old church, and they were supportive. Because one of my friends who had walked through the same thing told me they were helpful and understanding. Everybody was very kind whenever I went and welcomed me back. I also quickly found the safe people. It was hard at first, because I didn’t know who would be understanding and who wouldn’t. So I felt like I had to over explain myself to everybody at first. But then, my intuition got stronger over time. I could tell the friends I know who are in healthy marriages. They were shocked when I told them what was going on. The friends I could tell were in unhealthy marriages, and just staying there. They were the ones who gave me the advice, “You need to keep trying.” I couldn’t take any more of that. My husband’s parents actually offered us a marriage intensive to send us there and pay four or five thousand dollars for it. I said if you’re gonna pay that money, you need to put that money towards his rehab. Because that’s actually going to save our marriage. My Husband Moves Back In Saying, “I Don’t Trust Him” Cece: Oh, no, you need a marriage intensive. I was like, okay, whatever, and he didn’t want to go to rehab. So he moved back after a month of being out. He said you’re not believing me. You’re not trusting me. So I’m going to move back in. Anne: What? What? Blaming you if your husband will change or not. Cece: Yeah, I mean, isn’t that crazy? You don’t trust me, cause I was finding stuff, still. Anne: How could you not trust me, because you’ve done it in the past? Like what? Like they don’t make sense. Sorry, it’s crazy. Like if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, it depends on you. Cece: Yeah, he moved back in, and I moved to the guest room. We basically had a parenting schedule. Like where he would parent at this time, and I would parent at that time. And I’d always go in my room and lock the door if he was home. So, in the fall, he had a few moments of clarity where he was like, Oh gosh, I’m about to lose my family. But then he would be back to where he was before the next day. I was, my panic attacks and stuff were starting to even out at that point. I was like, I’m just going to observe and see what’s going on. At one point, I said, “I just want to sit down with you and pray for you. I don’t know why, I just think God is leading me to do this.” And looking back, God was trying to open my eyes at that point, even more. So I prayed for him and just cried. Trying To Save Our Family & Mini Stroke Cece: I was like, God, I love this man. Please change him, help him see what he needs to do and save our family. And he said, “You want to go out to dinner?” I said, “Sure.” So we went to dinner, and I was trying so hard. It was like there was this glass wall between us. I pounded on the glass to wake him up, to understand my view. But he would not hear any of it. He was in the complimentarian BS, like, “You’re my wife, you need to be submissive.” I could tell he was obviously taking a lot of it from what he heard from the church. That night I had a TIA stroke. It’s like a mini stroke. It doesn’t usually impact you long term, but it is a warning sign that you might have a stroke in the future. My head felt like it was gonna burst, it was like I couldn’t even formulate any thoughts. It was the weirdest feeling. I just felt like my brain was shutting down, and afterwards it was scary. After that night, I knew I had to set a permanent boundary that I would not discuss any type of relationship stuff with him. Because I thought it was going to be the real thing next time. I moved to a camp. We stayed there for three weeks, and it was fun. It was like a camping trip. That was the first time my kids ever spent a night away from me. And that was really hard. I was still nursing my 18 month old. And so my boobs were leaking. I cried so much, but after that, it got easier. Contesting the Divorce & Legal Battles Cece: And I started using the time to refresh myself, listening to helpful resources to combat the negative impact of thinking I dislike my husband, and meditating on scripture. One of the most helpful scriptures to me was Malachi 2. Just talking about how much God hates when men are unfaithful to their wives. It was so encouraging to me. In those days, I would just open the Bible, and God would always lead me to the right passage. That was one of the main ways I could regulate my nervous system. And then I interviewed two lawyers. I was so broken over having to do that. Because in Tennessee, we don’t have legal separation. You either stay together or file for divorce. Without filing, I could not get him to move out of the house. I also couldn’t get child support or anything set up, so I knew I needed to file. But the night before I went to the first lawyer’s office, my son knocked our marriage license off the wall and the frame broke. I was like, wow. And God led me to this passage from Psalm 81, which was referring to when he delivered his people from Egypt. It was talking about how he set their hands free from the basket and delivered them. And that was amazing to me, thinking, wow, okay. I have heard God and I’m peaceful about it. So I went to the law office, and eventually he got served. He said he wanted to contest the divorce, even though we didn’t have any assets to divide. So he just made me waste a bunch of money on the lawyer fees for a contested divorce, even though we didn’t go to court at all. Custody Threats & Emotional Manipulation Cece: It was interesting, he was almost gleeful when we talked about the stuff that we were going to divide up. And he was like, Oh yeah, we’ll do that. It was weird. It was like, he was happy. And I thought I had made the right decision. He just wanted me to do the dirty work, which I was devastated to have to do. Anne: My ex was like that too. He was so happy to get divorced, or at least he acted like it. It was so weird. He was showing now that he never wanted to change. Cece: Weird, one time I was getting the kids ready for co-op, and out of nowhere, he came into the room. He said, “I’m going for 50/50 custody.” And he knew that was something that would devastate me, because I’d always been a stay at home mom. And I’d always done all the stuff for the kids. And I thought, what are they going to do spending half their time with him? That would totally disrupt their lives. He caught me so off guard. I freaked out, I said, “Are you kidding me?” It was in front of the kids. I’m ashamed to say I yelled in front of them. But said, “You’re going to be calm. You’re not going to show your triggers.” My ex is big on homeschooling. I said, we won’t be able to homeschool because you work a nine to five, so we’ll have to put them in public school and daycare. This is expensive, because we would have two that need to be in daycare. And you’re going to pay a lot more for that than if I just take them to work with me or just work around their schedules. Birthday Drama With A Public Confrontation Cece: He always spiritualizes everything. I said, God’s gonna be good and faithful to us no matter what. So you know, I’m not worried either way. Anne: We teach how to tell if your husband will change in my workshop. Cece: Totally, then I just poured out my heart to my safe people when I could get away from him. We worked out the parenting schedule. We have 70/30 now. But one thing that I remember from that month he moved out is my middle child, her birthday party was that month. We already had it planned and everything, and we were both going to be there. I was thinking, Oh, how’s this going to go? Especially since infidelity is abusive. He started drama at the birthday party. Saying I was planning to take the kids out of state, because I was planning to visit my mom at one point. That was the first time he ever found out about it. And he freaked out in front of everybody. And I said, “I’m not doing this again. We’re not having birthday parties together if you’re going to continue this.” I used to cry when he guilted me and said I was breaking up our family. I used to internalize it. But this time something shifted. I realized that the reason I was thinking, I dislike my husband, wasn’t because I had become unloving—it was because I was tired of being blamed for his choices. Finding Peace By Setting Firm Boundaries When I Dislike My Husband Cece: We got to Christmas. We split time with the kids. Things were much more peaceful once I started having firm boundaries with him. And I eventually moved out. He bought me out of the house, because unfortunately I had no employment history or anything. My mom helped me get my rental place. Which I don’t know what I would have done if she hadn’t helped me. But God provided the perfect place for us. I was so sad to leave my house and all the work I put into it. But now we live in a three bedroom house on two acres. Because I posted on Facebook and someone responded, and we found the perfect place. I can just send my kids outside. It’s great. I’ve just been able to build a business. God has just provided every step of the way. Because it’s very public now. It’s just out there that I dislike my husband. I’m divorced because my husband was a addict. I’ve had other moms contact me from my different social circles, even those who are still in their marriages just suffering. Which I feel terrible about. And I’m going through the same thing. You’re the only person I’ve told about this. It’s so common, it’s everywhere. God has confirmed to me that I made the right decision. I’ve learned to sit with grief, journal about it, and talk to my safe people. Anne: Does it help knowing that the good parts weren’t actually good? Do you know what I mean? That they were grooming and part of the abuse? Does that help? How do you feel about that? It’s so hard to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change, when he’s groomed you for so long to keep believing he will. Bravery & Strength: Thriving After Abuse Cece: You’re right. At the same time, I view myself as alone in those memories. Like, I had a good experience, but I was alone. So even saying my wedding vows, that was me being my honest self. But he was not being honest. His heart was not sincere in it. Actually, he remarried just a few weeks ago. I feel bad for his next victim. He definitely picked someone vulnerable and naive. I tried to be friendly with her, just in case she ever needs to reach out. Anne: If you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself? Cece: I thought about that question. And I honestly don’t know if there’s anything I could have said to myself that I would have listened to. Anne: I think that’s such a good answer, because that’s how I am too. I just have to say like, yay, because I’m not the same way now. Like you listened to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, but at the time you thought the best way to resist abuse was help your emotionally abusive husband change. CeCe: Right, there’s so much wisdom in it, but you have to be ready to hear it. ha ha. Anne: Ha ha, I would not have listened to myself either. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. You are so brave. You are so strong, and it’s so good to hear that you’re thriving and doing well. And I appreciate you sharing today. Cece: Thank you so much.

Published: 31 December 2024

If you’re wondering how to get back to yourself after emotional abuse, listen to how Anne Blythe, M.Ed. came back to herself through writing, exercise, and boundaries. Do you need support through your healing journey? Check out our Group Support Session Schedule. Transcript: How To Get Back To Yourself After Emotional Abuse Anne: A few years ago, I was doing an interview for The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. There was this freaky Friday situation. and the guest started interviewing me. I wanted to replay a portion of that episode for you today. Juliane: What are some steps you’re taking and have taken that have helped you regain your own sense of balance? Healing Through Writing After Emotional Abuse Anne: I’m a writer. Writing has been healing for me. I wrote every abuse episode that I could think of. Every instance of gaslighting. Every instance of emotional or psychological abuse helped me sort out what was real, what wasn’t real. It was like a hundred pages. It was crazy. When I started using that as a draft to write my book, because I want to give people concrete examples. Like when my husband said he didn’t love me. I was so sick of my own story. I thought that was a good sign after emotional abuse. So instead of thinking, I have to prove that he was abusive, which is how I felt before. Now that I’m healed more, I don’t need to process that anymore. Now I’m deleting huge sections out of it, because now I’m thinking, which examples will help other women? Juliane: And you don’t have to prove why it was so crazy making for you. Anne: Yeah, totally. Reclaiming Physical Health After Emotional Abuse Anne: My no contact boundary is actually the most helpful thing to me. Because any interaction with him is insane, focusing on my own physical health has been good. I’ve always been really athletic, and everything went out the window the moment I married him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZj_YL19POM I didn’t ski anymore or mountain bike anymore. And I didn’t row anymore. I didn’t do any of the things I love doing. And now I’m getting back to that after emotional abuse. So I’m doing yoga every day and I’m weightlifting again. I may work at the ski resort the weekends when my kids are gone. Juliane: I love that phrase, by the way, coming back to myself. Anne: Yeah, and part of that was the abuse. And also part of it is that I have three kids under the age of six, and getting out of the house is really hard. They’re getting older now. My youngest was eleven months old when he was arrested. Time has helped a lot, too. It took a lot of time to process. I’d never taken an emotional abuse test, I had no idea he was abusive. Emotional Struggles & Support Anne: In fact, I just went through a pretty hard period. I went off my antidepressant, and decided I wasn’t emotionally eating anymore. So there’s about a month where I was crying every day. I mean, really bad, in the shower. At church, finding a room where no one was, and locking myself in there. Sitting on the floor, full on bawling my head off about everything that had happened. Because I didn’t have the crutch of food anymore, and I didn’t have my antidepressant. So there were some feelings that I hadn’t quite felt. My sister was worried about me. So was everyone else. I was like, guys, I’m gonna be okay. https://youtu.be/yu4b-nA3gaM I just need to feel this right now. I’m not going to eat popcorn, and I’m not going to eat Oreos. I’m not going to take an antidepressant. I just need to feel these feelings that I was not ready to feel years ago because it was too much. It would have killed me if I had to feel everything simultaneously. So I used an antidepressant for years, and I ate a lot and gained a lot of weight. Which is fine. Both of those things are fine. Do it if that helps you. Navigating Single Motherhood After Emotional Abuse Anne: Now I’m stronger. Knowing even if you’re making progress, be gentle with yourself. Especially because my husband is paranoid and angry Because women, at least in my situation, have all kinds of problems. We have financial problems. What will we do for work? Juliane: A woman working with three children that are young on her own. I mean a round of applause for all the single working moms out there. It’s so hard to do that alone. Then, you’ve got these multiple betrayal traumas. That impacts you emotionally, psychologically, and physically. Anne: And they were coming from therapists. My clergy took his side. And friends, family, when I say family, I mean his family. This is not a small thing. Considering Medication After Emotional Abuse Juliane: No, it’s not. For me, five years out, I was still hurting. It was like the pain would come rushing forward with all the fear and insecurity. It’s a long process. I love that you gave yourself the freedom and permission to just feel your feelings. Anne: Because I knew that feeling these emotions is important for me now. Women are strong, and they’re smart. We can think rationally through those decisions and make the right decision for you. And one of them might be, oh, I feel good. But now I realize my brain is imbalanced, and now I’m going on an antidepressant. Juliane: Absolutely, it’s there for a reason, and it wouldn’t work if we didn’t need it. Some women need it right away because of the trauma symptoms they’re having. I can’t eat, I can’t sleep, you know, the constant worry, fear and anxiety. And I’ve also seen fear get women through that period, because of all the adrenaline cortisol pumping through their system. It kind of keeps them on high alert, and they can get through the crisis. But a year or two years out, they kind of notice they’re slipping into depression and then need some support at that time. Therapy Challenges After Emotional Abuse Anne: Absolutely. Yeah, I am not anti-medication. I just want to make that clear to everybody. Please go on it if you need it. This is where I’m at right now. Juliane: Well, kudos to you for all the hard work you’re doing and for the place you’re in. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is taking what harmed you and turning it around. To provide support, encouragement and resources for other hurting women out there. When I went through this, I never really bought into the co-dependency, co-addict model. It has impacted many women, and not for good. When I went through this, BTR helped so much. Anne: Yeah, Betrayal Trauma Recovery doesn’t victim blame. That’s what the current recovery field misses. Is the abuse first of all. But also this bigger, wider discussion of misogyny, the Me Too movement and feminism. Like, you might be going to a therapist who buys into codependency. Not realizing it’s a form of victim blaming, which is also misogynistic. So it’s so much bigger than just, “Does he look at it or not?” Juliane: Absolutely, absolutely. Anne: That’s one reason I wanted to start Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It was to talk about all these important issues in one place. Because I was not seeing that in a typical 12-step group or a typical therapist’s office. Oftentimes traditional therapy that tries to get to the heart of, “why he doesn’t feel loved” or whatever. Rather than recognizing, wait a minute, he is loved. He can’t feel love because of his misogynistic attitude. And his feelings of entitlement and those aren’t going away. The Importance Of Emotional Safety Anne: The more therapy he does, the more he feels like he’s a victim. So I always like to warn people. You don’t want to give an abuser a shovel by having him go to therapy. Where he creates a story for why he has an abusive character. Because he’s just going to dig his trench even deeper. Because we see all the time, therapy fuels his entitlements and feelings of being a victim. It makes it worse for the wife. That’s why at Betrayal Trauma Recovery helping women be emotionally safe is the top priority. And that could look like many things. Juliane: Right, this is a woman who is violated. And there’s no sense of safety. So safety is of the utmost importance. Anne: Yeah, and at BTR that’s actually the bulk of what we see. That therapists don’t assess emotional safety first, and if they do, and the woman isn’t emotionally safe. They propose things like, share your feelings with the abuser. Or let’s communicate better with him, and that is dangerous. Court System Challenges After Emotional Abuse Anne: It’s like the civil court system. A friend of mine is going through divorce with an extremely abusive man. She can’t talk to him without being psychologically abused and blamed. That sort of thing. And in court, the judge said, Look, you guys are both professional people, work it out. Juliane: Oh, gee. Anne: There’s no way she can work it out with him. It’s impossible. So a therapist might think, Okay, you both seem intelligent. You both seem nice, let’s work together. And you’re thinking, we can’t coordinate or cooperate about anything without me being harmed in the process. Every time I try to communicate or resolve something, I end up gaslit and taken advantage of. Many people, lawyers, court people, clergy, and therapists, don’t have safety as the top priority. That has to be the top priority when any type of emotional or psychological abuse is involved. Juliane: Absolutely, we can’t have a healthy relationship with an unhealthy individual. Anne: This is why I created The Living Free Workshop, to help women get free of abuse. Giving Back To Women Anne: Thank you. That was fun to be interviewed for a little bit. Juliane: Anne, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a joy and delight. I feel like I could talk another couple hours with you, but thank you so much. I want to applaud you for all your work and how you’re giving back to women through this podcast. And kudos to you for writing your book and giving up buckets of popcorn. I wish you all the best. Anne: Thank you.

Transcribed - Published: 24 December 2024

Is therapy causing you to feel worse? Do you keep going, thinking maybe the next session will be the breakthrough? Here are the warning signs of an abusive therapist every woman needs to be aware of. Amy Nordhues, a victim of an abusive therapist, and author of Prayed Upon, joined Anne Blythe, M.Ed. on The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to talk about the warning signs of an abusive therapist. If you relate and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. Transcript: Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: What To Look For Anne: Amy Nordhues is on the podcast today. She’s a survivor of both childhood sex abuse and abuse as an adult at the hands of a mental health professional. She is a passionate follower of Christ and expert on the healing God provides. She has a B.A. in psychology and minors in sociology and criminology. Her devotions are in the Secret Place devotional series. Her memoir, Prayed Upon, won the Inspire Christian Writers Great Openings Contest for nonfiction and the Next Generation Indie Award for inspirational nonfiction. As a married mother of three, she enjoys spending time with family, writing, reading, photography, and all things comedy. We will talk about warning signs of an abusive therapist today. Welcome, Amy. Amy: Hi, it’s so good to be here. Anne: We have comedy in common. When I first learned about my husband’s lying and deceit. I actually started writing comedy to deal with it, like to process it. So I wrote a comedy blog for a few years that wasn’t showing what was actually happening. When my book comes out, I will actually publish that comedy blog in book form simultaneously. So that you can see what was happening. Amy: Oh, interesting. Anne: I think a lot of comedians use jokes to deal with their trauma. Amy: Yes. Anne: So maybe we’ll make a few abuse jokes today. Amy: Yeah. Anne: Oh, wow, don’t worry. My audience, my audience gets it because they’re all abuse victims. The Pastor’s Wife’s Suggested This Therapist Anne: So let’s start with your story. Amy: Yeah, I started attending Celebrate Recovery. I wanted to work on issues from past abuse and a disconnected marriage. I had depression and anxiety. And when I was in that program, the pastor’s wife became my mentor, and at some point she recommended I see this therapist. He was also a psychiatrist, which was good because he can manage my medications. He was an elder at the church where the Celebrate Recovery was hosted. I had just started attending there. So it seemed to line up perfectly. So I started to see him, and he was an odd character, more like a bumbling grandpa. Very Christian, wore a cross necklace, sweet, kind of goofy, and right away he played a father figure role. He learned that was something I didn’t have. So he played into that, and at first it seemed like an answer to prayer. It seemed like my depression was lifting. I started to see I guess you could say red flags in this relationship. Anne: At the time, what was your thought process? Did you know they were red flags? Would you define them that way? Can you talk about your thought process? Amy: In retrospect, I realized the red flags started from day one, and those things I didn’t see as red flags. I just thought they were quirky, silly, like he would get an afghan out of his cupboard. And like kind of match it to what clothing I was wearing. And then playfully cover me with it. Well, my alarm bells went off. But I certainly didn’t think this is a predator trying to weasel his way into my personal space or see them as warning signs of an abusive therapist. The First Red Flags: Coerced Shoulder & Foot Rubs Amy: I thought, this is just a silly, older gentleman therapist trying to put me at ease in an awkward therapy situation. He would bring me tea, and I didn’t see any harm in that. We both would drink tea during the sessions. So they were little things like that. And I brushed them off. But when he offered to rub my feet or shoulders for a Christmas present, I panicked, he’d never touched me in a session. He sat across from me in his chair, and the sad reality is that I didn’t think I could say no. I had voices screaming in my head, like, pick one, pick one, this is awkward, this is brutally awkward. So I said, shoulders. He came over and sat next to me in the chair and started to rub my shoulders. And I panicked and said, “feet, feet,” just to get him away. And the touch felt creepy. Sadly, I say sadly, because now I wish I could have just stood up and left. But I kind of slumped down in my chair and put my feet on the ottoman, and allowed him to rub my feet. Anne: Because we reject victim blaming here at betrayal trauma recovery, would you feel comfortable saying coerced rather than allowed? Amy: Yeah, I didn’t think no was a choice. Anne: Right, so that’s coercion, right? Amy: Do it quickly, and get it over with, or put it off. And then still do it. Anne: Right, and it’s coercion. Amy: It is coercion. Anne: This isn’t you allowing him to do this. This is you are coerced to do this because you feel like you have no other option. However, these were definitely warning signs of an abusive therapist. The Pastor’s Wife Didn’t See The Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist Amy: Right. It was the most awkward, uncomfortable thing I could ever imagine. And on top of that, I felt like it was my job to make the room feel more comfortable for the discomfort he caused me. So, as we continue to talk in therapy, I’m like, look him in the eyes, ignore him rubbing your feet, ignore it. You’re making this worse, as if this is a problem I brought on. It’s just so unfair. I ran this red flag by my mentor. Again, she was an elder at our church, and she was the pastor’s wife. I wasn’t seeing it as a sinister red flag, but I was seeing it as a very weird red flag. And when I told her, she said, “He’s so sweet.” Anne: He was married at the time? Amy: Yes, he’s married. He was 65 years old. Anne: Okay, so he’s 65. He’s physically coercing clients and also emotionally and physically cheating on his wife. Another example of warning signs of an abusive therapist. Amy: Yes. Anne: And she’s saying he’s so sweet. This probably isn’t the first time she’s heard this then. Amy: After this whole nightmare ended. I learned another young lady, younger than me. Who she was also mentoring was sitting on his lap in sessions. So she was almost like a pawn in this whole scam. Anne: The pastor’s wife? https://youtu.be/jUZiLsuSFNU Therapist’s Grooming Others To Downplay Inappropriate Behavior Amy: Yes, I feel like because she suggested him to me. She knew this young woman, who committed suicide under his care 20 years prior, was sitting on his lap during sessions. Anne: What? Amy: Yeah, it devastated me. I thought, and you sent me to him. And I don’t think she was in on it with him per se. I think she was unhealthy. Anne: Right, she didn’t understand coercion. She didn’t view these behaviors as warning signs of an abusive therapist. Amy: Yeah, and believed the people going to him were so mentally ill. He was doing everything in his power to help them, and so maybe he had to try more unconventional means. Anne: There’s that. And the addiction industry in general, or therapists who work with addicts in general, believe addicts. So if an addict is sitting in an addiction therapist’s office. And the addict says, “Well, if my wife would do this, or if she would do this, things would be better.” Like if she were more kind to me or if she respected me more. And so it’s this racket where the addict husband and the addict therapist end up abusing the wife more and more over time. Amy:Yeah, and these predators, don’t start abusing victims until they have everyone around them adequately groomed. They have all the pieces lined up. He even had the confidence, even though it backfired on him. But he had the confidence to go after me, knowing I was good friends with the pastor’s wife. That’s how much he thought he’d get away with it. Anne: Absolutely. Isolation & Emotional Manipulation Are Signs Of An Abusive Therapist Amy: I keep going, I think, yeah, he’s a little kooky and I let it go. We did a very odd spiritual type therapy, which just added to the confusion because I was a new Christian. There were many effects of spiritual abuse from him. was looking for Christian help for infidelity. Then there was another huge red flag of an abusive therapist. I shared with him during one of my sessions that I imagined myself dancing with Jesus. Like a father-daughter dance at a wedding. That was not something I ever had, and how it was kind of a sweet thought. So the next time I show up for therapy, he says, “I thought we could dance.” And I just felt my face go beet red, and I just wanted to escape through a trap door. Again, leaving wasn’t an option. I figured it out quickly. Because you’re making this more uncomfortable by sitting here being uncomfortable. Again, the burden falls on the victim. Anne: Absolutely, think about an actual caring, empathetic person. Not even a therapist. They’re going to see that look flash across your face. They’re going to be like, “Oh, do you want to, how do you feel about it?” An empathetic person would have some type of awareness. Amy: Oh yeah. Anne: When your face goes red or when you look confused, abusers just plow right through that like, she didn’t say anything so I can move forward. Amy: I think I covered my face. I was that uncomfortable. In my head I’m thinking, you mentioned dancing, he’s trying to help you, it’s a therapeutic thing. He’s 65. And since standing up and walking away wasn’t an option. Number one, I thought that was rude. Resisting Abuse Through “Getting It Over With”: Signs Of An Abusive Therapist Amy: And number two, I was connected to him at this time. He made sure I was emotionally attached. He had isolated me more by this time. I really thought he was the source of me feeling better, getting better. So I made myself do it. It was brutal, and when it was over, I thought, this never has to happen again. Anne: I want to point out the resistance here. So as a victim, you are resisting through “getting it over with.” Victims think, why didn’t I stop it? And I want to point out that getting it done quickly, because you don’t think you have a choice, is a form of resisting abuse. So you are resisting abuse every step of the way here. Your face is turning red. You’re putting your face in your hands. You’re trying to be safe. So as you’re resisting, he has multiple times where he can make a different choice and not abuse you. But he just keeps manipulating you and pushing forward. Yet more warning signs of an abusive therapist. Amy: I appreciate you saying that, and feel like many of your listeners will understand that. I think some people judge harshly, and they think it’s really easy. You just stand up and leave, or you slap them across the face and you leave. They don’t understand the layers upon layers of manipulation that have already formed a web around you. Continual Manipulation & Being Afraid Or Feeling Too Guilty To Leave Amy: That’s when they make bigger moves, when they know you won’t leave. When they know you’re too afraid to leave or feel too guilty to leave, whatever it is. And I ran that by my close friend, and again, she thought it was sweet. And then I worked up the courage to tell her that he touched an inappropriate body part while we were dancing. Something snapped in her, and she said, “I trust him implicitly.” And I knew in that moment I was on my own, so I didn’t share anything else with her. I thought, I will fix this relationship with the therapist. It’s just gone off the rails a little bit. Maybe it was my fault. It always feels like our fault. If I wasn’t needy and didn’t like the idea of a father figure, then I wouldn’t have caused these things to happen. And what’s really sad is that in therapy, you’re so vulnerable. I gave him the information he could use against me. Anne: Exactly. Amy: And when I’m providing the information and then he uses it against me, I feel like I’m the one who brought it up. But all I’m doing is going to therapy. It makes it extra confusing. Well, you said you imagine, well no. I didn’t say I want to dance with you or I want a romantic relationship with you. Anne: You were resisting abuse the entire time. Feeling in your gut that these are warning signs of an abusive therapist. So this is just an aside for comedic relief. And how is you cheating on your wife, helping me therapeutically? Wanting To Escape But Manipulated Amy: Oh, like, he’s going above and beyond to help me. And part of me believed it was a blessing that he was going above and beyond, but not at the time, I just wanted to escape. Anne: I want to point out more resisting abuse. So you go for help from your friend and you realize instinctively that she’s not safe. Even if you don’t have the words for it. And so you pull back, which is a form of resistance. At every step, you’re trying to figure out how to get out of this. Amy: Yes, it feels like you’re in a maze, and you hit this wall. And with telling her that, I hit that wall. That was one of my escape opportunities. I was counting on that one, too. I just was crushed when she said that. And then even more, it made me start thinking, no one’s gonna believe me. He’s a doctor, therapist, and church elder, and he’s 20 years my senior. Who else am I gonna tell? And if I tell someone who maybe hasn’t ever been in therapy or hasn’t had my specific issues. They’re gonna jump on me right away. They’re gonna say, it’s your fault because you went back. So then you’re more isolated, and then it keeps going, and sadly the abuser becomes the comforter, because he’s the only one who understands the abuse he’s inflicting on you. It’s a very twisted situation. Anne: And he is doing it on purpose, so that he can comfort you. He creates the problem so that he can be the solution, which is a very intense form of manipulation. Therapist’s Romantic Advances: He Told Me He Loved Me Amy: Yes, it’s like who else is there? Anne: Mm hmm. Amy: He’s the only one left. And they can turn on the charm when they need to. I’ll skip to the end. There’s only a few more months of therapy, and my panic is just rising. At this point, he’s turning up the heat, and it’s he loves me and … Anne: Woah, woah. Turning up the heat, like he’s in love with you romantically? Amy: Okay, this is the way he weaseled into it. He had established himself as a father figure, right? And I feel he was stuck in that role. So he started saying the key was that my heart loves you like a father. But the teenage part of me loves you in a romantic way. Well, I didn’t know what to do with that. I was like, what does that even mean? And then I thought, well, maybe that’s how all males feel. Anne: Addiction therapists want people to think, oh, this is how men are, rather than this is wrong. Amy: Right? So I’m thinking, well, he’s not gonna act on that teenage part. He’s just admitting that, and that’s vulnerable for him to say. Anne: Also very creepy. Amy: Super creepy. I mean, I was in panic mode for days and weeks. Like coming home I’m just twirling my hair and pacing around the house like I don’t know how to digest this information. And again, I didn’t think we were on a trajectory towards abuse. I thought these were random incidences, not warning signs of an abusive therapist. So I thought, okay, he’s just fallen in love with this patient. Grooming Was A Warning Sign Of An Abusive Therapist Amy: Maybe that’s common for therapists, but he’s not going to act on it, he’s not going to do anything about it. Anne: When you say on the trajectory for abuse, you didn’t think you were on the trajectory. But even just talking now, he had been abusing you from the beginning. It’s like, I don’t realize this is where it’s going, but then I also don’t realize this has been the intent from day one. Amy: No, I have no idea that’s the intent. It never in my wildest dreams would I have thought he had an evil bone in his body. Anne: And that he’d been abusing you the entire time. Because grooming is abuse. It is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. Amy: Yeah, and I can remember when I got out saying, well, the first red flag was, and somebody who knew better saying, “No, no, no. The first red flag was on day one.” And then I started thinking, yeah, you’re right. I was groomed from the beginning. When you’re not a sociopath, you can’t think like a sociopath. And you’re empathetic. You give people the benefit of the doubt, and after I’d get over each red flag, it would go into the background. So each incident was unrelated to the next, I saw no pattern. Even when it was getting inappropriate, like, you can’t love me, you’re married. And you’re my therapist. Again, I didn’t think it was sinister. So I was like, Well, you’re gonna need to rein that in, and that’s not okay with me, and that’s not gonna work. But I didn’t see it as, this is all part of my master plan, to get you where I want you to be. Intentional Abuse & Isolation From Husband, Are Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist Anne: I think that’s the thing that is so difficult for victims, and therapists also don’t understand it. Is that it’s intentional when a wife goes in about her husband’s abuse. Therapists are like. Oh, he told me he didn’t mean that. He’s just bumbling around. Men know women don’t want to be abused. That’s why they can act nice and awesome. If they thought women wanted to be abused, they would be like, okay, I’m going to cheat on my wife. So men know they’re intentional. It’s the therapist in general, that don’t think that. And then this therapist intends to abuse you directly. Amy: Correct. He was the abuser. And he made sure to isolate me from my husband. So it was just him, him and me. And so it was fix it or leave. And for whatever reason I couldn’t leave. I know now the reasons. He had layered so many things, like he had told me so much about his personal life. Another warning sign of an abusive therapist. He seemed like a fragile individual. He said it would kill me if you ever left. I felt too guilty to leave. I thought it would kill him. He had stopped charging me for sessions. The reason I wasn’t super disturbed by it was that it happened at the first of the year when my insurance wasn’t paying. And I brought it to the attention of the secretary. I could see him smiling in the background. I realized, oh, he’s intentionally not charging me. And I felt like a pit in my stomach. I felt that uneasiness of that’s not right. Not Charging Is A Warning Sign Of An Abusive Therapist Amy: And then I was like, I had told him how I was always told as a child. How expensive I was by my father. And how he’s trying to make me know that my worth isn’t based on any dollar amount. So again, he used something I shared with him in therapy. The other reason I didn’t fully panic about was that I knew my insurance would kick in a couple months. Literally in my head, I thought, It’s fine, Amy. He’s a doctor, I don’t think you’re going to bankrupt him. Anne: With other victims of therapy abuse. I’ve heard that before. It is a warning sign if they stop charging them. Maybe they do that so that they can claim they weren’t a client. Amy: Yeah, and also for me, it made me feel indebted. Money’s tight, and here he’s doing this for free. He cares so much more than the average person. Anne: I want to put that out to my listeners. If that has ever happened where the therapist stopped charging. Then when you made a complaint, if they said, well, she wasn’t paying me. So she wasn’t a client. Because this is my theory, if they’re aware of this ever happening, they would let me know. Because I wonder if this is a preemptive way to avoid losing their license. If someone reports them. The good news of having a community of victims is that we start to see patterns. So you can know like, Oh, if they stopped charging you, it could be a sign. Amy: Right. Anne: defend themselves or some other thing. In your case, so that you would feel indebted. Amy: An ethical therapist won’t ever stop charging you. Therapist’s Physical Advances A Warning Sign Of An Abusive Therapist Amy: I can see there maybe some situation where you have to work something out, but it’s short term. I’m just saying it’s a red flag. I’m gonna just skip to the end. He weasels his way over to my side of the office to sit next to me. Because that has to happen before he can do anything else. So I was emotional one particular session, and he came over and sat across from me on the ottoman. And dabbed my tears with a tissue, which was embarrassing. It felt fatherly, but also embarrassing. But I told myself, it’s sweet, he’s just trying to be sweet. He’s just trying to be compassionate. Well, then he pretended he was uncomfortable sitting there. I didn’t want him to go back to his side of the office, because it was soothing to me. And this is after I’d been seeing him now for a year. So later, when he eventually assaults me, I feel like it’s my fault. And I don’t want to tell anybody because I’m so ashamed. I’m ashamed that I’m in therapy. And I’m ashamed that I wanted a father figure. I’m ashamed that I’m an adult and was duped. I’m ashamed for the parts I thought were my idea. Of course, none of it was my idea. But master manipulators use you in your own abuse process that is something to look for if you think you have an abusive therapist. It makes it confusing and maddening when you peel it apart and see that you weren’t responsible at all. Resistance & Confusion Are Signs Of An Abusive Therapist Anne: And that you were resisting the entire time, trying to stop it the entire time. Amy: Oh yes, and I was going in at the end in tears. Saying, “I can’t do this, this is hurting me. I need you to stop.” And he wouldn’t stop. For a long time, I was like, is he hurting me? I think he is. But then I got to a place where I was like, he’s hurting me, why can’t I leave? And it was a brief period, but it was confusing at the time, and I couldn’t break the tie on my own. Feeling like you can’t go to a different therapist is a warning sign. I just couldn’t do it. He would guilt me and cry. He would do something, and I would cave. So I again went to the only person I knew to go to my mentor, but this time I went to her spouse. I went to the pastor. And I told him, and he believed me. Anne: Oh, that’s awesome. Amy: Yeah, and he says, what do you need? And I said, I just need someone to sit with me. Because my therapy sessions, I’m embarrassed to say, had gone from one hour to two hours to three hours. Anne: See, that is another warning sign of an abusive therapist. They go over time. Amy: Huge, and you know I never asked for more time. He just surprised me with it one time. And I said, “Well, my time’s up.” And he said, “Oh, I was able to move people around to get us an extra hour.” Emotional Attachment & Voicemails Trying To Get Me Back Amy: Then I had the same pit in my stomach, and again I rationalized it. Okay, well cool, I guess more time is good. That’s okay. That’s nice. Then I got used to it, and it went to three hours at the end. At that point, I was so attached and so alone. Outside of this little bubble that he had created, that I almost wanted that time. Anyway, I tell my pastor everything. I say I need somebody to sit with me during my three hour session. Because I’ll cave, he’ll call, cry and guilt me. I don’t know. I just can’t break the tie. They did, they sat with me. But when that session was over, I knew at least one tie was broken and I wouldn’t go back. Now I remained attached, emotionally attached for months. The doctor called nine times and left nine voicemails, but I knew physically I wouldn’t return. That’s the other very maddening thing. I know the answer, although it’s hard to put into words. Why do we remain attached to people that we know are hurting us? Ignoring the warning signs of an abusive therapist. First of all, it took me a long time to see that this was grooming, this wasn’t love. This was never love. This was a man who liked to trap women in psychological cages and then torment them for fun. It’s so hard to wrap your mind around that level of evil that it’s just hard to get there and not rationalize the warning signs of an abusive therapist. That’s what I needed. I needed to know he’s intentionally hurting me. Because I felt too much compassion if it was unintentional, if he was just human, a man, just slipped or had just gotten in too deep. Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: Evil Intentions Amy: I could be more patient with those things, and I needed to see the evil, and I got a chance to see it at the end. Anne: I think all victims feel that way, so one thing I try to point out is that if you feel uncomfortable, his intentions don’t matter. Giving women permission to not worry about the intentions. To be like, you might be nice, but you, in your good guy form, makes me uncomfortable. Giving women permission to realize like, Oh, I don’t have to worry about his intentions. All I have to worry about is how I feel. This is one of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. Amy: Yes, and unfortunately I didn’t have the self-worth to think that my opinion could trump other people’s. Especially a pastor’s. Other friends that went to this psychiatrist and loved him and thought he was amazing. So I always dismissed my own gut instincts. And one thing I always like to point out is that my gut instincts were spot on. We aren’t naive, gullible, stupid and missing all these things. What we’re doing is allowing them to slip through. We’re minimizing them or rationalizing them. We don’t feel we can say no. Even though we see warning signs of an abusive therapist. Anne: I think we’re resisting it the whole time, and we’re trying to figure it out. I don’t think we’re rationalizing anything. We are resisting in the only way we know how to at the time. You were resisting because you were trying to tell your friend. Also, you were resisting because your face turned red. You were resisting because you weren’t saying, “Oh, I’d love to do that.” Amy: Right, I say rationalizing. Surviving & Seeking The Support To Leave Amy: That was part of the resisting. How can I make this situation more comfortable for myself and feel less scary and awkward? I tried to find other reasons for maybe why he did certain things. So the whole thing is just trying to survive it. Anne: Yes. Amy: The best way we can until we can figure it out or until we can get enough support to leave. After my pastor and his wife sat with me during that last session, I knew I wouldn’t go back. However, I was highly traumatized and still attached to him. I was ashamed and embarrassed, and I was confused as to how he manipulated me. And why I stayed so long, and allowed that. I didn’t have plans to tell anybody after that. That I hadn’t left after seeing the warning signs. But in time, I got the courage to report him to the medical board because he was a psychiatrist. The medical board process took about nine months, and he was allowed to permanently surrender his license. Anne: Hmm. Amy: I guess doctors can renew their license in my state after a year. But in this case, it was a permanent surrender of license, so that was some bit of justice. But it just felt so unfair. He was already retirement age. And so he got to pretend to retire and move away. Civil Malpractice Lawsuit Was Successful, But Not Really Justice Amy: Meanwhile, my life was shattered. Because I hadn’t done anything about the warning signs earlier. My marriage, my family, we were all struggling. And so I decided to file a Civil Malpractice lawsuit. It took about three years, and in the end it was successful. It wasn’t about punishing the abuser so much, as it’s a financial transaction between us and his insurance company. It’s not the justice you get when you pursue criminal charges. But it was something that allowed me to stand up for myself for the first time. Several attorneys told me that pursuing any kind of criminal charge would have been brutal for me and my family. And that the abuser would likely walk. So not to do it. And clearly, I couldn’t take on any more trauma. So yeah, I didn’t even want to go near that. Anne: That makes sense. I’m so glad you got some sort of justice and also financial compensation, which is helpful to you, and holds him accountable. Even though it’s with his insurance, that he surrendered his license is good news. Sometimes they surrender their license, but then they coach afterwards. And that’s scary. We’ve had a few instances of that in my state where a therapist went through this. And then they surrendered their license, then it was found later that they just continued to see clients. Under the guise of coaching rather than therapy. And that’s been very alarming. Common Patterns of Abusive Therapists Anne: Now, as you advocate for victims of abusive therapists. Can you talk about patterns that you see? Amy: Well, when it first happened to me, I thought I had to be the only person on the planet to be taken advantage of as an adult. That I hadn’t recognized the warning signs. And of course, I know now that it is extremely common. And, yet we all feel alone, because we all think there was something wrong with us. That we were not smart enough to see that I’m dealing with an abusive therapist. So that’s the first thing, is that it is common and that survivors are not alone. And the second is that it is challenging to peel apart the layers and see that you were actually manipulated and groomed by an abusive therapist. That although you are an adult, there wasn’t a gun to your head, there was a metaphorical one. There was emotional manipulation, which is equally powerful, and I feel like society doesn’t respect that. They don’t respect emotional manipulation or threats, but they still hold women captive. Anne: That makes total sense because listeners to this podcast have experienced it with their own husband. It’s not like he’s handcuffed her. Amy: Yet we’re still trapped. But sadly, that kind of manipulation doesn’t get much respect at all. In fact, women are usually blamed. I want to make sure survivors and listeners understand they aren’t to blame. That adults are taken advantage of all the time. And they don’t have to feel guilty, ashamed or to blame. That was what I needed to hear in the beginning over and over. You Are Not Alone & It’s Not Your Fault Amy: You’re not alone, it’s not your fault. I was like drowning in shame and self-hatred, and I was confused. To become attached to someone who takes advantage of you leaves you utterly confused when it’s over. You feel hatred for the person that hurts you. And attachment to the person you thought was loving and caring. And there to support you, there to help you. It’s really hard for victims when they come out, because there’s so much that has to be sorted through. And understood, and there are very few people educated on it to help us. So, it’s important to throw a lifeline to survivors in those early days, especially. So that they can start to untangle some of that confusion. Anne: That is exactly the abuser’s intent to hook you emotionally and manipulate your emotions. By making it seem normal. Manipulate your thoughts, and make you feel like it is you, but it’s not you, right? So then you get confused and you feel shame, and that is their intent. This is why lying is emotionally abusive. They want you to feel shame, because it keeps people from understanding what’s going on. Or for going for help or talking to people. And then even if you talk to people because you don’t know what’s going on, you don’t define it as abuse. And then they don’t know. So it is a big mess of he knows exactly what’s going on. But we don’t. Amy: Yeah, shame is like a prison, and they know that, and that is their intention from the beginning. Shame keeps us quiet, like you said. We’re confused, even if we try to reach out. And can’t explain it in a way that shows what happened. Watch Out For These Abusive Therapist Red Flags Amy: It takes months, sometimes years, to fully wrap your head around it and then reiterate it in a way that makes sense. Because you can’t explain something you don’t understand yet yourself. Anne: Exactly, because listeners of this podcast have been manipulated by their husbands. And most of the time, I would say they don’t understand. So they turn to therapists for help. Then the therapist ends up being an extension of their husband’s abuse quite a bit of the time. The biggest red flag is that if you know it’s abuse, do not go to couple therapy. But just in general, red flags for abusive therapists: if they stop charging you and run over time. Amy: There will be no physical touch, except maybe a handshake upon meeting. Sometimes, maybe, it’s ethical for a therapist to give you a short hug at the end of sessions. But even then, be careful with that. They won’t talk about other clients. The one you mentioned about the couples therapy, that is a big one. If they’re willing to see you both as couples and you individually, that is a red flag. They cannot be your therapist and your therapist as a couple. Anne: A hundred percent, and almost every addiction recovery therapist does that. It’s so unethical. It’s so crazy. I’m like, no, it’s unethical. Number one, if it’s abuse, but even the therapist doesn’t know it’s abuse. So they’re doing all these unethical things, and the client doesn’t know. And apparently the therapist doesn’t know, or maybe they know, but they don’t care. I don’t know. Finding The Right Therapist Can Be Difficult Amy: When I found a good therapist years ago, I suggested couples counseling to him. Just bringing it up in general, he said, “You know, I can’t be your therapist and your marriage therapist.” At first, I wished he could because I trusted him. But then I realized that would be so hurtful, because you lose your therapist when they become your couple’s therapist. They do not have that objectivity anymore, and they do not have your best interests at heart. Amy: If you have any feeling of unease, you have permission not to go back. It’s not rude or hurting their feelings. We’re allowed to do what’s best for us. And it’s really hard. At least it was hard for me to think that way, that I don’t even have to have a reason. You just make me feel uncomfortable. That’s something to listen to. Anne: Yeah, and you also don’t need to tell them that. You can cancel the appointment and just never go back and not tell them why. Amy: Yeah, you don’t owe them anything. Anne: Yes, you owe them zero things. Amy: It is a business transaction. It’s a service, and you’re paying them. If they are helping you, then you continue. Otherwise, you find someone else. Many red flags are things that I felt in my gut. So it’s hard to put them all into words. Anne: But maybe that’s the most important one. I think many women in this space, our listeners, go and they think, I don’t know, it didn’t feel right. But next time I will be able to explain it better. Or we made some progress. And so next time I can like, we’re getting close. Our Coaches Understand Anne: And I want to say, if you’re constantly feeling like you’re getting close, but you still feel uncomfortable. That would be a red flag. Many women, when they come to BTR .ORG and schedule sessions with our coaches. Or they come to our group sessions. One of the main things they say is that they understood it right away. They totally got it. They helped me. I didn’t have to spend time and money trying to explain it to them. Almost like you’re educating the therapist that your husband’s abusive. Our coaches, because they’re abuse coaches, are helping you see, okay, is this abuse and can help you immediately. And so always thinking that next time, maybe you’ll get over the discomfort is a red flag. Amy: I was just going to say that if you feel the burden of proof is on you, then that’s not a good fit. The therapist should immediately recognize it as abuse. And should support you and help you understand it, not the other way around. If you have to over explain yourself, or defend yourself in any way, then they aren’t the therapist for you. You feel heard, seen and valued if they’re ethical. They won’t make you feel questioned, attacked, or belittled. But since we’re used to taking abuse from people. We feel it’s our responsibility. And that if they miss the mark, we give them another chance or we see how it goes. When we don’t deserve to be hurt anymore. And we certainly don’t need to pay for it. Anne: Exactly, exactly. Like you’re paying someone to help you. If you feel like you have to explain it to them or educate them. Having Hope & Yet Realistic Expectations Amy: Feeling lighter, validated, heard, seen and feel some semblance of hope. There’s hope, because somebody sees me and gets it. That’s how you should feel when you leave. Anne: It’s hard with betrayal trauma and abuse. Because hope is tricky. We’re like there is hope you can live free from abuse. We have The Living Free Workshop. You can get to emotional and psychological safety. That may mean you need to start setting boundaries and separating yourself from the harm. And that doesn’t feel hopeful, because there might not be hope for the marriage. Which is very hard to face. But if therapists give victims hope in the wrong thing, like my ex was emotionally and psychologically abusive. I remember one therapist who was like, he’s a good guy. Of course, we can work this out. And so I felt hope, but it was hope in the wrong thing. It was hope that this abusive man could be non-abusive, and that wasn’t going to happen for me. So you want to feel hopeful. Also realistic about your situation. I think that’s another important thing that they’re not giving you false hope. Amy: That’s very important, yes. Anne: We might be like, he is abusive. We need to get to safety. It’s actually going to be hard, but you can do it. We believe in you. You’re strong and brave, and let’s start moving towards emotional and psychological safety. We don’t know what path you’re going to take. But this, oh, come to me and I’ll solve all your problems. It’ll be really quick. And this is like easy to solve. Therapists & Re-Traumatization Challenges Amy: Yes, I agree. I hope things can change eventually. That you don’t have to stay in the same pattern that you’ve been in for all these years. Like you said, it may be uncomfortable getting there, but it’s possible. Yeah, I can see how therapists can re-traumatize so many people. Today we were referring to my therapist, who intentionally harms people. He does it for fun. I think there are therapists that do their best, but don’t have the skills. You have to be picky and keep going until you find somebody that you feel is a fit, and that hears you and gets it. Anne: I’m always concerned, especially when it comes to abuse. Like you might talk to clergy or friends, and the automatic thing everyone says is they don’t understand it’s abuse. Especially if he has covert narcissistic traits. Also, even if they know it’s abuse, they don’t know that you shouldn’t go to couple therapy or therapy about it. Immediately they’re like, well, therapy solves everything. And I want to caution people about that idea. Therapy can be really helpful for some things. Being an abuse victim, there’s not necessarily something wrong with you. In your case, you went to therapy to get help for something specific. That you wanted to change about yourself. That is a good reason to go to therapy. But when someone hurts you, they’re messed up, not you. Therapy’s not the answer for everything, I guess. Sometimes you might need a friend or a hiking group. Thinking that there’s inherently something wrong with you in your situation. That therapy can solve it when there isn’t something wrong with you. Finding Someone To Talk To That Understands Abuse Anne: Sometimes I feel like people go in and the therapist finds something wrong with the person that wasn’t even there to begin with. Especially if they’re an abuse victim. Like, let’s talk about why you picked the, and you didn’t do anything to deserve to be treated that way. It’s almost a form of victim blaming in some ways. Amy: I do, and that comes down to picking the right therapist, because I feel so much damage can be done. Especially if you’re not aware of the warning signs of an abusive therapist. But I feel so much healing can happen in just supporting you through it. Not saying you need to be here, but I want to walk alongside you through this journey. So if you look at it like that, I feel it can be beneficial. The right therapist won’t make you feel at fault. You may get there at some point where you want to analyze things. But I think it’s good to have somebody walk alongside you who understands it. Friends and family hurt me over and over because they don’t get it. They don’t understand it. They don’t relate to it. So almost everything they said to me was offensive. They would say things to me, like, “Well, why did you go back?” And just different questions along that line. And it was so painful, because I was already beating myself up with that same thing. I don’t know. And so, someone who understands it will be safer to talk to than someone who doesn’t understand. Anne: Yeah, whether it be a therapist or not. Talking to someone who understands abuse Is the answer. Challenges In Getting Help After Being Abused By A Therapist Anne: It breaks my heart that women have to try therapist after therapist, after therapist, after therapist to find a safe one. I created Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because I didn’t want any woman to have to go through that heartbreaking process. Because you don’t always know right after the first session. Also, many times when they find it’s abuse, therapists don’t have concrete ways of helping you. I created the Living Free Workshop, which I mentioned earlier, for that reason. But it’s hard. Because clergy, family and so many people don’t understand. Amy: I’ll tell you, when you mentioned clergy, I just bristled. Because the other thing that we get a lot is that the abuser is just sinning. He’s just a sinner in need of help. I heard that about my own abuser, even though he was like a psychopath intentionally harming women over his entire career. So for me, I would shy away from going to a pastor or religious person. Because that’s often the approach they take, and that’s also damaging and re-traumatizing, Anne: And if they’re going to try and get the “sinner” to repent. But then you’re still in proximity to that abuser, and he can just manipulate the whole situation. Amy: Right, I just wouldn’t recommend it. They don’t have the training to properly help a woman in that situation. And like you said, it’s going to be more about well, can you forgive them? They’re just sinning and they’re broken. Well, no, they intentionally choose to hurt someone. Needing To Reach Out For Help & Finding Safety Amy: For me, I was not able to escape on my own. I tried and tried, and I didn’t want to tell anyone else because I was embarrassed. And I didn’t think they’d understand, but it just kept me there longer. I couldn’t break the emotional tie either. He would guilt me and manipulate me. So you need to reach out for help. However, the first person I reached out to for help blamed me and took the abuser’s side. And it crushed me so much that I stayed longer. So you have to tell and continue to tell until you’re heard. It’s so devastating when we reach out for help, and we’re not believed, blown off, or blamed. We give up altogether. Anne: I absolutely agree. We hear that a lot here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. That women have been to therapist after therapist or talk to their clergy. You do the right thing. every time you reach out. Even if you get shut down, which is devastating. Finally, when they come here, they’re like, “Oh, yes.” It’s because we get it immediately. But I want to praise them for continuing to try to get help. Then when they find us, I’m so glad, because I’m like, we’re here. We’re here for you. Amy, thank you so much for being so brave and sharing your story. So that other victims can relate with it and hopefully learn something together. Thank you so much for sharing. Amy: Yes, thank you for having me.

Published: 17 December 2024

If you’re Googling what is emotional adultery, you’re probably trying to make sense of something that feels wrong in your marriage—but isn’t obvious enough for anyone around you to take seriously. Maybe you’ve found videos on his phone. Or he’s glued to inappropriate media late at night. Maybe he swears it’s “not cheating” because “he’s not with a real person.” But in this podcast episode, Anne Blythe, M.Ed., founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and her mom break it down with startling clarity: If he is using inappropriate media and stimulating himself to it, he is having virtual sex. And virtual sex is adultery. Not metaphorical adultery. Not “almost cheating.” Actual adultery. And once you understand why, emotional adultery becomes much easier to recognize. Emotional Adultery Starts With THIS Here’s the simplest test: When he wants comfort, excitement, escape, or connection… who (or what) is he turning toward? If he’s giving his emotional energy, sexual focus, and bonding hormones to a virtual world (or to women on a screen) rather than you, then emotional adultery is already happening. It’s a real betrayal because it breaks the emotional, sexual, and spiritual exclusivity of the marriage. Why Using Inappropriate Media Is Emotional Adultery 1. It’s not “just looking”, it’s a sexual act As Anne’s mom says, men used to call this “phone sex.” The only difference today is the delivery method. If he is viewing inappropriate media and stimulating himself, he is performing a sexual act—just not with you. 2. He is forming a sexual experience with real people It’s not “a computer.” It’s a real woman on video (or it’s based on one). He’s using people as a product for his own gratification. 3. The body responds the same way it does in physical sex The same hormones and neurological bonding. Your marriage isn’t exempt just because the other person can’t see him. 4. Christ taught that lust itself is adultery “If a man lusts after a woman, he has already committed adultery in his heart.” That was long before smartphones existed. The principle still stands. 5. Most people minimize it because the truth feels awkward. No one likes picturing their husband sitting in front of a phone or computer, doing what he’s doing. So society softens the language. They treat it like a hobby. But minimizing something doesn’t make it less harmful. 6. Many of the women in these videos are exploited or coerced (or it’s AI based on real women) Emotional adultery isn’t “victimless.” 7. And finally: he is having sex with himself instead of you Part of the betrayal is that he’s bonding with himself while using another woman as the stimulus. This is not intimacy, it’s isolation to have sex alone. So What Is Emotional Adultery, Really? Emotional adultery is when a husband gives his emotional and sexual intimacy to something outside the marriage. It can look like: Virtual sex Obsessive use of inappropriate media Escaping into digital fantasy while avoiding real-life connection Arguing that it’s “not cheating” Hiding devices or deleting history Becoming emotionally unavailable, irritable, or defensive Prioritizing screens over the marriage It’s the slow, steady siphoning of intimacy away from you and into a world where he holds all the control. If you’ve been trying to convince yourself it’s not adultery because “he wasn’t with a real person,” this episode gives you permission to trust what your body already knows: It is adultery. It is betrayal. And it is abuse. The Hidden Signs of Emotional Adultery If you’re still unsure, here are some common signs women notice: 1. He’s emotionally distant or irritable without explanation. 2. He defends inappropriate media as “normal.” 3. He hides his screen, his phone, or his late-night habits. 4. His libido seems unpredictable—either detached or suddenly demanding. 5. He gets defensive when you ask basic questions. 6. He insists “every guy does it” to shut you down. 7. Your gut is screaming that something is wrong. Women almost always sense emotional adultery before they can prove it. You Deserve Safety, Clarity, and Support If your husband is engaging in virtual sex or any pattern that fits emotional adultery, you deserve support from women who actually understand what this means, not people who minimize it or blame you. Our daily support group is designed FOR YOU. We never shame you for refusing to accept emotional adultery as “normal. Transcript: What Is Emotional AduLTery? Anne: My mom is joining me today because lately she’s been on a soap box, an awesome soap box. That we should talk more about how exploitative media isn’t just viewing videos. Or pictures, but it’s actually virtual intercourse because it involves masturbation. It involves the bonding chemicals that you release during intercourse. I have a section of this in my book that will be coming out soon, about how masturbation is always part of the equation. It’s Emotional Adultery Because Of What He’s Actually Doing Anne: Can you explain why you think that instead of calling it what we normally do, we should just say virtual sex? Mom: Well, the reason I thought it’s important is because a lot of the world doesn’t think it involves anything else other than just looking. But when they look at those pictures, there are real women who had their picture taken. They’re somebody’s mom, they’re somebody’s daughter, somebody’s sister. They are real women. The other thought I had is that, usually in connection with the it, men masturbate. Just like Anne said at the opening, that involves the same chemicals. The same hormonal response that a man would have with a live woman. https://youtu.be/kvJckL1Vh4k So, I just felt instead of everybody saying, well, avoid exploitative media, blah, blah, blah. You need to call it virtual sex. Because that’s what it is. Back when I was younger, many men used phone sex. That’s what they called it, phone sex. They would call on the phone, it was a real woman, and she was responding in real time. Of course, he would be masturbating at the same time. So that was where I came from. Why This IS Adultery Mom: And then also the quote in Matthew, I think it’s in chapter 5, and I believe it’s verse 28, where it says, If a man lusts after a woman, he has already committed adultery in his heart. Anne: Many people don’t think that just it’s adultery. But if you combine it with masturbation to create a sexual experience. That someone’s having or performing with another person or thing. In this case, with a virtual scenario, they are actually having sex with a computer. Mom: Yeah, you wouldn’t say computer. That conjures up all kinds of other issues, but no, I mean … Anne: It’s not just a picture though. it’s a video. Mom: A video of a real person, yes. They’re just providing their own physical stimulation. Virtual Sex Is Adultery Anne: Like the responses I’ve received from the few people I’ve said it to so far. That virtual sex is adultery. And what includes virtual sex isn’t just a VR, like goggles that you would wear. But actually viewing anything and masturbating is virtual sex. That’s what it is. Why do you think people think it’s not adultery? Mom: I think they have in mind that it’s just this innocent thing. On the man’s part, I guess I should say, but it doesn’t involve a real person in real time. But these women, many of them, are either sex trafficked. Or forced into doing this by virtue of drug abuse or slavery. Anne: Regardless of how they got there. Mom: Right. Anne: They’re a real person. And the man still has real, actual sex with that person. That he does not know, that has no name, that’s on the film. The other thing is that he actually has real sex with himself. wpcode id=”24078159 Public Perception About What is Adultery Mom: When people hear that he just uses this stuff all the time, they don’t view it as innocent, just looking at a picture type of thing. Anne: Or a video. Mom: Or a video, yeah. But I think, this is my soap box here, it really is virtual sex. And we should call it what it really is, so that there’s no confusion about it. Anne: When you think of a man sitting in front of a computer or his phone. Just looking at it. Anne: People do not envision him looking at their phone or computer while masturbating. Because who wants to think about that? Mom: Yeah. Anne: No one. Mom: Yeah, it’s too awkward, it’s too uncomfortable. Many people have trouble even saying the word masturbation. Anne: Right Mom: It’s not a comfortable thing. Anne: No, so it makes sense that when you say it, that’s what people envision. That they’re looking at their phone or computer. Mom: Many people in the world, me not being one of them, think masturbation is fine. So, that’s the other issue. It’s not just that we don’t see them as maybe not having sex. But they don’t view that as “sex” when it really is. It involves the same hormones, the same body responses. Anne: They’re having sex with themselves. Mom: Yes. Religious Perspectives On Virtual Sex Anne: We want to know what you think about this. We would welcome your comments. Please go to BTR.ORG and find this podcast episode. Do you think it’s adultery and why? Mom: When it involves someone in a committed relationship. Anne: If they’re not in a committed relationship, is it fornication? Yes. In my opinion. If you are a religious person and believe in the commandments and law of chastity, then it would be fornication. It’s either fornication or adultery, but in neither of those cases, in my opinion, is it okay. Maybe you disagree. We’d love to hear your thoughts on it. You’re going to get a lot of people who think it’s crazy, and that’s okay. But that’s what we’re here for. So many people don’t know what is exploitative. To validate women who feel this way, and let you know that if you do feel this way, we feel the same way too. You’re in good company. Mom: Or bad company. Anne: Or you’re in very bad company. We’re such an evil influence. Mom: Dangerous. Anne: I know. We’re laughing because people call my ideas dangerous a lot of the time. So, it’s so dangerous to say that exploitative media is adultery. Woo! When Christ himself said it. In what, Matthew? Mom: Matthew chapter 5. Anne: I love my Mom. What We’ve Learned About Adultery Anne: I’m super grateful that she came on today, and I love her opinion that we should start saying virtual sex. If you agree with our stance, that it’s adultery. That it’s virtual sex. And is lying emotional abuse? Yes. If you agree with us, maybe because your husband has virtual sex with women online, and you need support, and you totally get it. You know what we’re talking about. We’re here for you. There are many so-called betrayal trauma therapists, coaches or groups out there. But they don’t approach using exploitative media or infidelity, virtual sex as an abuse issue. Or they try to “treat” both the abuser and the victim in the same setting, which is unethical. BTR groups sessions are different. We get it. We never victim blame, and we are here to support you. So if you relate to anything we said in this episode, check out our daily support group schedule. We’d love to see you in a group session today.

Transcribed - Published: 17 December 2024

If your husband is constantly on the phone, here's what you need to know.

Transcribed - Published: 3 December 2024

You’re not wrong for wanting things to be better. If you’re searching for a ‘prayer for my husband’ because you’ve been told that if you have enough faith, you can change him, you’re not alone. But here’s what most people don’t tell you… 5 THINGS TO CONSIDER AS YOU FIND A ‘PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND’ TO HELP HIM CHANGE 1. You’re Faith is Enough There’s something many faithful women are never told.The problem isn’t your faith. The problem is how your strong and incredible faith is being used, by people or systems, to confuse you instead of help you feel the love God has for you. 2. Prayer is Always Good, and God Loves YOU God hears your prayers. He wants YOU to be emotionally safe and have a peaceful home. He may be leading you to see that this might not be possible if your husband is lying and refusing to follow the principles if he’s only pretending to believe. 3. The Harmful Message Behind “Pray Harder” When spiritual leaders or loved ones say, “Just have more faith” or “You’re not a victim, you’re a co-creator”, it’s spiritual bypass. It minimizes real harm and leaves you powerless. The interview below will cover why this is so harmful. 4. You’re allowed to be angry. Your anger about your husband’s mistreatment of you isn’t a lack of faith. It’s likely God’s way of warning you of danger. 5. God Hasn’t Abandoned You If you feel like God isn’t answering your prayers for your husband to change, it might be because your husband doesn’t want to change, but he’s lying to you about it. That means he’s lying to God too. Your husband may be blocking you from feeling God’s love for YOU. If you have heard this kind of messaging and need help getting out of the fog, my workshop will help you determine if you’re husband is lying about his faith in God to keep you from knowing his true intentions. “The More I Pray The Worse My Husband Gets” For many women, it might feel like “the more I pray the worse my husband gets.” If you’re feeling this way, here are 8 things to consider. 1. If Your Prayers Aren’t Being Answered, Maybe They ARE Being Answered In the silent moments of prayer, many victims of emotional abuse question, “Does God even care about me?” or “Why won’t He answer my prayers?” It’s a painful place to be, feeling as if divine help is just out of reach. However, expressing raw, honest emotions through prayer, including anger, can be a powerful way to stay spiritually connected and grounded in your reality. If you’re husband is getting worse, consider that perhaps God is SHOWING you your husband’s true character. Perhaps God wants you to see who your husband really is, so you can make decisions that will lead to your emotional safety. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches women strategies to SEE the truth of her husband’s character. 2. Telling a Victim of Emotional Abuse That Prayer Alone Can Change Her Husband is Victim Blaming Victims often hear clergy or friends say things that aren’t helpful. Telling a victim of abuse that prayer can change her abuser, is so wrong, that’s why it’s so important to recognize victim blaming. If a victim hears this, she may feel like it’s her fault she’s emotionally abused by her husband. Nothing is farther from the truth. Consider that God may be trying to tell you that there’s nothing you can do about his character if you’re praying and feeling like God isn’t answering. 3. God Doesn’t Want You to Reconcile With Wickedness Reconciliation with an emotionally abusive person isn’t safe for you emotionally. Throughout scriputure, God continually asks the righteous to separate themselves from wickedness. If you feel like, “the more I pray, the worse my husband gets,” consider studying these concepts in scripture: deliverance, separation from wickedness, and departing from wickedness. What do the scriptures say the righteous should do when they encounter evil? 4. Praying The You Can Forgive Might Mean Something Different Than You Think In the scriptures, there are multiple times where the word forgiveness is paired with the concept of debt. Matthew 6:12 – forgive your debtors. If your husband owes you fidelity, love, and loyalty, what happens if you forgive him of that debt to you? That would enable you to move away from him (not closer). Consider the debt your husband owes you, and how forgiving him of any debt will help you create distance between yourself and the harm he causes in your life. 5. Try Praying For Yourself Shift the focus of your prayers from your husband to yourself. Ask for strength, courage, and clarity. This self-focused prayer can empower you to make decisions that are right for you and your children. We’ve also been commanded to pray for our enemies and those who despitefully use us, but scriptures admonishing us to do that don’t ask us to be in proximity to our enemies or subject ourselves to those who despitefully use us. 6. Pray For Emotional Safety Pray for the emotional safety. To be emotionally safe means to exist in an environment where one feels supported, understood, and accepted without fear. If someone is lying to you, it’s not an emotionally safe situation. Trust and respect are necessary for emotional safety. If your husband lies to you, consider how limiting your exposure to his lies could help you. 7. Pray To Be Shown Correct and True Information Many women who are being emotionally abused by their husband are unaware of what’s going on because they haven’t been educated about abuse. To paraphrase Hosea 4:6 – My daughters are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Clergy and therapists are sadly not aware of how to assess for emotional abuse and genenrally give bad counsel to women with emotionally abusive husbands. The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast is a great way to learn about what an emotionally abusive husband looks and sounds like, so you have the right information. 8. Pray to Be Led To The Right Support Feeling abandoned by God can make life seem impossibly dark. It’s easy to feel as though the suffering will never end. You’re not alone. His emotional abuse has isolated you, but reaching out for support can bring light back into your life. Seeking support is vital for healing. Pray for guidance to find the right people and resources that can help you on your journey. Whether it’s a support group, therapist, or community resource, the right support can make all the difference. Our online support group for victims of betrayal meet daily in every single time zone to provide the community, validation, and compassion that victims need. You deserve peace. That’s why the Savior came – to deliver us from evil and bring us peace. Transcript: When Praying For My Husband Isn’t Working Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s podcast. Her name is Tracy, and she is a passionate advocate for betrayed wives. Discovering her husband’s addiction set her on a course of education about betrayal trauma, abuse, spirituality, and healing. Tracy is a devoted mother of four children, a compassionate friend, and an avid runner. Mountains and lakes are her happy place. Mountains and lakes are also my happy place, so we have that in common. We’re going to start by talking about spiritual bypass. One of the most common ways it shows up is when abusers—sometimes supported by clergy or even therapists—frame the solution as simply offering prayer for my husband to change. That’s why there are so many effects of spiritual abuse as well. PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND WHEN I DIDN’T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO Tracy: Absolutely. I’ll just give an example for myself. So my first D-Day was a month after I married. It was very traumatic, very, very traumatic. I didn’t know that I was in trauma. I didn’t know anything about trauma. There was so much I didn’t know. I didn’t have any support system or any real education. So basically, all I knew was that I was in so much pain, in such a place of darkness. The only way out, it took me two or three days, I don’t remember. Truly being in this dark, dark pit before I realized the only way out was God. And so I went to God in prayer and said, I cannot keep feeling this. I felt like it was going to kill me. Thinking, “I need to forgive my husband, but don’t know how to forgive him?” I am incapable of forgiving him, but I want to forgive him. And I know you can help me immediately. The darkness lifts, and I fill up with incredible comfort, warmth and peace. Now, I wasn’t healed from trauma. Of course, I didn’t understand trauma or what it meant to thoroughly heal from trauma. Understanding HOW Prayer for My Husband BECAME SPIRITUAL BYPASSING Tracy: Here’s where prayer for my husband got tricky. While it worked for me at that time and helped me, ultimately it became a form of spiritual bypassing and it kept me stuck in the trauma. It didn’t help me to better understand it or to come to a better understanding of my situation. I want to compare that now to my second D-Day, about 15 years in. I found out that this was going on my entire marriage regularly. That obviously my husband had been lying constantly about it, and hiding it. Then all those pieces start to fit together. That explains so much of my experience in this marriage that I did not understand. That happened on a Sunday night, I still remember it late at night. We were in bed talking. And as he began to disclose the reality, my situation started to descend upon me, as I came to terms with that. I didn’t sleep that night. I think I fell asleep at 6 a.m. and slept for one hour. And I said, I will not do this again. Because I realized I’d only been through one big cycle of this. I could see that handling it the way I did the first time wasn’t going to cut it. All that was going to do was set me up for more D-Days, and more D-Days, and more D-Days. And so my whole approach to healing was different than that first time. This was not going to be an event or an arrival. This was going to be a long process. I was going to let myself feel angry for as long as I needed to feel angry. WHAT I LEARNED ABOUT Prayer for My Husband: the Second D-Day Reality Check Tracy: You know, it’s interesting because I felt more betrayed by God after the first D-Day than the second. I don’t know what it was, but something after that second D Day, I instinctively knew some truths right away. And one of them was that this isn’t God. God did not betray me here. My husband did. And I realized that many things started fitting into place quickly. One of those was God was there for me all along. The lesson I learned was actually good and true. From the first experience, God is real. He was warning me. After that first D-day, prayer for my husband became a constant in my life. I would pray to know if my husband was honest with me or if my husband’s lying to me. And I always thought that since I could never find evidence, or my husband would never admit anything, I guess that meant he was telling me the truth because God wasn’t putting something in my lap, right? THE IMPACT OF DECEPTION ON MY RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD Tracy: Like throwing the evidence out in front of me. But in reality, I knew in my gut that something was wrong for years. And I knew after that second D-day, God was talking to me all along. It’s not God’s fault. It’s my husband’s fault. My husband interfered with my relationship with God. I was a spiritual person before I married. I came to my spirituality as a kid. And strengthened it as a youth and that was always a strong point for me. It was strange for me that after I married my spirituality started to decline. And I started to feel more distant from God. And I couldn’t figure out why. Because I was doing all of the same things I’d always done. My heart turned towards God. I wanted that relationship, but I couldn’t figure out why I was feeling so distant. And I would come up with reasons. Well, maybe it’s because I’ve had kids now and I don’t have the time to pray the same way I used to. I don’t have the time to spend as much time in the scriptures as I used to. So I guess I’m not prioritizing right. Because motherhood is difficult, but that wasn’t the reason. Prayer for MY Husband BEFORE MARRIAGE: When Something FeLT Off Tracy: I was careful and cautious about marrying, and I was very prayerful about it. I studied the subject and ultimately I decided, okay, I love this guy. No, I’ve got to take a leap of faith. So, you know, I said, yes. Well, I started to feel uneasy during our engagement, like something was off. There were various things that happened in a relatively short period during our engagement. That really moved me to confront my husband and ask if he had ever had any issues with pornography. She was also feeling kind of uneasy. We were like, is this normal? Is this just like engagement jitters? But we didn’t want to be like that crazy girl who likes to give back the ring, right? And changes her mind and goes back and forth. And so we made a pact with each other, me and my friend. That if we started to feel that uneasiness, we wouldn’t act on it unless it stayed with us for more than 24 hours. Because it might just come and go, the butterflies. I also prayed about that. I said to God, I understand that this might be normal feelings of anxiety, so I’m not going to take them seriously unless they stay with me for more than 24 hours. At one point, they did stay with me more than 24 hours. But still, I didn’t have any reason why something should be off. I didn’t have anything specific to point to. And he looked me in the eye and he said, no, never. And I may have asked one follow up question. He maintained, no, never. I didn’t push it. I just accepted his answer, but I still had these feelings of uneasiness. My best friend, at the time, was also engaged. When Others’ Advice Overrides Intuition and Prayer for my Husband Tracy: So I went to my Dad, who I love and is a wonderful, wonderful man, full of lots of goodness and wisdom. But, he basically just talked me out of my feelings. And he convinced me that I was being silly and too emotional. He said, “Your fiance is a great guy.” He’s got great career ambitions. He’s going to take good care of you. And he loves you. There’s no reason not to marry him. Spiritual bypass again. After, I found out a month into marriage. Which, the way I found out, is because my husband lost his job. He was caught using it at work. It was awful. But I did briefly feel betrayed by God. I was like, I prayed about this, I asked about this. But again, through spiritual bypass, I let go of all those feelings. Well, after my second D-Day, 15 years in, when I tried to put all the pieces back together and make sense of it. I realized God answered my prayer for my husband. Trusting God When THE Answers TO PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND ChangeD Tracy: I knew in my gut that something was off. I can trust my gut. And I can trust God. I realize my husband is the one lying to me. My Dad talked me out of my feelings when I went to him, saying I feel like something is off. I’m nervous. I’ve never had to work through a intense or long lasting feeling of betrayal by God. I’ve realized he’s been with me. It’s people getting in the way. I want to add one quick thing I would encourage women to consider is that sometimes we may get an answer, right? Maybe, this was not my experience. I did not get a definitive, yes, marry this guy. That was not my experience in prayer for my husband. But some women I have talked to say they have had that experience. And so they feel betrayed when they find out. That’s understandable. Like, sometimes we can get an answer to something, but that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily the answer for the rest of our lives. Things can change. People can still make choices that change circumstances. I like to think about life as not something totally planned out. Where God is pulling these puppet strings. But rather, those change-your-ending books. Endings CAN Change & God Doesn’t Want Abuse Tracy: I don’t know if you ever had any of those. But you would start to read the story, and then there was a choice that you would have to make. Then depending on that choice, you would skip to a certain point in the book. And then you’d come to another choice. So depending on the choices made, the ending of the story would change. I can pray about something and get an answer that is good for me right now. But tomorrow, my husband can make a choice that changes circumstances, and the answer to prayer for my husband may change. Does that make sense? Anne: It does. Because many women think back to the answer to their prayers and think, but I’m supposed to be with him. Instead of saying, I need to set this boundary, because I’m not safe. They think God wants me to be tolerate abuse. God never wants you to be abused, ever. So if you’re trying to sort that out. I’m telling you here, that God does not want you to be abused regardless of what answers you had from prayers in the past. Anne: For me, I never asked whether I should marry my ex-husband. But I definitely felt like it was the logical right decision, which I made happily. And now looking back, I can see that my life’s work would not be possible without him. He introduced me to everything I needed to know, to run Betrayal Trauma Recovery and to continue to run BTR. So I’m actually super grateful for the experiences. Because I would never do what I do now without the experiences he gave me. Which were all horrific, but also now I have a PhD in evil. SPIRITUAL PERFORMANCE V. REAL CHANGE Anne: Let’s talk about how prayer for my husband is problematic when a man exhibiting abusive behaviors. Tracy: So my husband, leading up to that second big D-Day, threw himself into spirituality. He was becoming involved in our church community, very service oriented. And was reading the scriptures for like a certain amount of time every day. He was, on his commutes to work. He was listening to sermons and keeping track in his little calendar journal, of acting out points. And he convinced himself that this was all serving him well. Because he had longer periods of abstinence between acting out events than ever before in his life. He was going a whole two weeks between acting out, for a period of months. And he was convincing himself, because he was doing all these things, that he was progressing. But did they actually help him progress? No. He fooled himself into thinking he was making progress. But he still lived in lies, secrecy, and abusing me. See, he told himself, no, this is good. Because I will tell what’s been going on after I’ve like six months or a year of sobriety under my belt. And it will be this awesome thing, and she’ll be so excited for me. But the thing is, he was just spiritual bypassing me and keeping me stuck in abuse. PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND AND A False Sense Of Recovery Tracy: In about the period of one to two years post that second D-Day, He was doing all of the right things on paper for recovery. He’d done a formal disclosure. He had gone to a 12-step group, and was still going to it. He’d done the repentance process through our ecclesiastical leader. He was doing all of these right things, but that was just it. He thought that he was done. Like, that’s all taken care of, so can we just put a bow on it and lock it up in the closet and never talk about it again? So addicts can even use “working recovery” as a form of spiritual bypass. Where they convince themselves that they’re doing so great, but they’re really not. Anne: A lot of women are manipulated to ask, “Is he in recovery?” Because that answer can be manipulated to be yes with box checking. So victims are like, he’s in recovery because he goes to his weekly 12-step meeting and he’s going to therapy every week, but then you’re not safe yet. Instead of setting a boundary immediately and saying, okay, I need to get to safety now. And then watch from a safe distance to see if these abusive behaviors stop. I’m still in prayer for my husband and hoping that they’ll stop sometime in the future. Tracy: Yeah, when we’re in that terrible trauma and we just want relief. It’s easy to latch on to the idea of there’s a cure or a fix or a place of arrival. Well, once my husband gets to this place, like this many years of recovery or whatever, then we’ll be good. This really will be all behind us. WHEN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND IS USED TO DISMISS ACCOUNTABILITY Tracy: When I think about am I safe, it’s am I safe now? Am I safe to say, engage in this conversation? My question is not, am I safe to recommit to my husband that we’re going to be together forever, and divorce is never on the table? No, it’s am I safe right now to continue engaging in the relationship the way that I am right now? Anne: Yeah, that makes much more sense. Figuring out if you should stay together after infidelity isn’t necessarily the most important thing. So let’s talk about some other examples. A man exhibiting abusive behaviors may use to manipulate his victim, in terms of spiritual bypass. It might be, “I used the atonement, Jesus took away my sins. What, you don’t believe in Jesus?” They’re imposing what seems to be their devotion to their religious beliefs into prayer for my husband as a legitimate solution to abuse. In this case is simply taking the name of God in vain. Tracy: Well, that’s spiritual abuse. Why haven’t you forgiven yet? Can’t you move on? Why are you being so un-Christ like? I mean, it’s just straight up spiritual abuse. The day after my last D-Day, I was expressing how much pain I was in. He looked at me and said, I can’t tolerate this cruelty and walked away from me. Calling me cruel, suggesting that somehow I’m devoid of compassion, so I’m falling short of some spiritual standard. Me expressing my pain is actually a good healthy thing for me to be doing. It doesn’t mean I’m not compassionate. WHEN SPIRITUAL LEADERS’ ADVICE EnabLES Abuse Tracy: And this can happen with ecclesiastical leaders as well, both for the abuser and the victim. Bishops or pastors who tell men, well, you just need to pray this away. And they tell wives to pray harder. Or you need to immerse yourself in the scriptures, and then that will give you strength to overcome this. Like, why haven’t you forgiven yet? You just need to forgive. Anne: As if the forgiveness is the problem rather than the ongoing abuse. Tracy: And that’s why we need to separate ourselves to a degree or to several degrees. To get a level of safety, but asking someone who is literally living in abuse. And being currently and continually harmed to just forgive as if that’s going to make them not be affected by the abuse. FORMS OF VICTIM BLAMING IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND Tracy: New Age teachings can go wrong too. It’s the same teaching. What you just said, the way we create our own reality, is a form of victim blaming. There is the teaching that everything I feel or experience originates with my own thoughts, so that I am creating my feelings with my thoughts and prayer for my husband. That nothing is happening to us from the outside. That can be very victim blaming, and victim blaming is very dangerous because that will make it more difficult for them to find safety and heal. So these are some common things you might hear. It happened for a reason. Nobody can hurt you without your consent. I wonder why you created this experience. It’s just your karma. There are no accidents, no victims. There are no mistakes. Don’t look back. What’s done is done. Don’t be a victim. Your feelings are an illusion. Be strong. Debunking THE MYTH “We Create Our Own Reality” THROUGH PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND Tracy: We create our own reality, so you shouldn’t do that. You should not write or think about something so negative, or else you will draw negative things into your life. The faulty thinking is that somehow if our belief is strong enough, if prayer for my husband is good enough, if our energy is high enough, like our vibration is high enough. Then we will only attract good things, and we can somehow avoid attracting negative things that will bring us down. That’s magical thinking, because we exist within these human systems. And these natural systems that we don’t have control over everything within those systems. We can have the most positive thoughts, be kind, and take all kinds of precautions for our safety, and still be deceived, or still be victimized in another way. Trauma symptoms are not the result of negative thoughts. New Age People think it happens like this. You have a negative thought, it leads to negative feelings and perceptions, which leads to bad things happening. But if I had been more skeptical and thought about negative potential consequences. It can help us do things within our power to help us stay safe. Anne: This would be like if you feel anger, that’s a negative emotion, so you’re going to draw more anger to you. An idea like that. Rather than realizing anger is a gift to us that can help us take action to keep us safe. Gratitude Is Not The Cure-All For Abuse: Understanding The Meaning Tracy: Absolutely. That’s at the core, recognizing we have great power within our humanity and within ourselves. There’s so much light within us, and if we tap into that, there’s so much empowerment there. And that’s great, but that we also have limitations. And so with spiritual bypass, like prayer for my husband, with this new age bypass especially, there’s this emphasis on we can transcend the human experience, basically. Learning to disassociate and fooling ourselves into believing that’s transcendence. That we’re beyond pain. But that’s not the point. We’re not meant to transcend the human experience. Anne: It reminds me of a lunch with a gratitude coach. she wants to partner with BTR and at this lunch, she said, “If you can be super grateful, then any experience you go through is beneficial to you, useful to you. And I was like, that’s not helpful women stuck in this abusive situation, and all they’re trying to do is be grateful for their situation. And what it’s teaching them, rather than actually getting to safety. So I told her this would never be a good fit for my audience. Although it’s good when you’re in trauma to see the things worth being grateful for. You know, y I’m grateful that I have food today. I’m grateful that I don’t have to sleep on the street. I’m grateful that I have a blanket that I enjoy. You don’t have to say, I’m so grateful to be in this abusive situation. Tracy: No. No, you don’t. In fact, there’s power in recognizing that you’re not grateful to be in that situation. THE Danger OF TOXIC POSITIVITY IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND Tracy: This is a common thing, is this toxic positivity, which is the excessive or ineffective overgeneralization of a happy and optimistic state all the time. Denial, minimization, and invalidation of genuine emotional human experience. So, that would manifest as hiding what we feel behind a positive front. Dismissing my emotions, feeling guilty for the negative emotions I feel, only positive prayer for my husband, and minimizing other people’s experiences. Trying to distract them from what they’re feeling, encouraging ourselves or others to reframe their experience. Which, that’s not always a bad thing. Sometimes that can be very helpful, but we have to be mindful of timing. And then also shaming others for feeling negative emotions. When I was in serious trauma. I just found out about everything that had been going on in my marriage for 15 years a month before. So something triggers me, and I cry, and I left the room because I was with family. I was with extended family, my parents, and a sister and, you know, her family, and it was embarrassing. I didn’t want to make them uncomfortable, so I left the room. But I could not stop crying, just sobbing. And my Mom followed me, and she said, “You know Tracy, you just need to put a smile on your face for the sake of your children.” And that was not helpful. The Need For Safety & Stability Tracy: So now I’m a bad mom because I’m crying in front of my children? Because I’m obsessed with internet filters like cleanbrowsing. And I had no control over that trigger in that moment. The trauma was too fresh. It was too recent. Not only was it not helpful, it was also very shaming. Also, she told me in the same conversation, “You just need to put the past in the past and look to the future in prayer for your husband”. Anne: Let’s skip right to, Oh, put on your happy, positive attitude about it and everything will be okay. But if you keep crying, then it’s for sure not going to be okay. But that is another way of telling a victim it’s her fault. A month after you don’t know if it really is in the past. Tracy: You’re still living it. Yeah, I was still not safe. She wanted me to skip healing. She wanted me to pretend nothing was wrong. Whereas what I needed was safety and stability. And after I’d found safety and stability, I need to go through the long, messy process of grieving to go back to the past. And acknowledge it, validate it and feel what we need to feel. Pressure To Move On IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND We have this societal intolerance, this cultural intolerance for feelings of helplessness and loss of control, which leads to victim blaming. People who have an inability to tolerate their own difficult emotions are not capable of tolerating the pain and suffering in others. So, they’re impatient for us to just move on, or just pretend everything’s fine. Victims remind us of our own vulnerability. If she was victimized, I could be victimized, and that’s scary. So I pretend she wasn’t victimized, she just made a bad choice, or she just put herself in a bad situation. And so if I cannot make that same bad choice or put myself in that situation like she did, I won’t have to feel helpless. Victim Blaming & Self-Blame Tracy: Victim blaming is a convenient way to avoid taking responsibility for our own actions if we have played a part. So often, abusers will do this, or people who have contributed to secondary trauma, exacerbated the trauma. They’ll continue to blame the victim because it’s a way to avoid taking responsibility for their own part and the victim’s pain or injuries. And then also that there’s self-blame that happens oftentimes. Where we as victims desiring a sense of control, blame ourselves. Because then we’re like, well, if I had just done this, then that wouldn’t have happened. So, if I can change my husband or change the way that I am or the things that I do going forward, then this won’t happen to me again. And we see this oftentimes, I think, in a betrayal trauma community. They’re safety seeking behaviors, essentially. It’s, if I am just the perfect wife in all of these different ways, then he won’t betray me again. Anne: In some 12-step circles, women are told you have to keep coming to 12-step meetings for the rest of your life or this will happen to you again. Tracy: Yeah, as if doing that has any bearing whatsoever on his choices. Like it doesn’t. Anne: I think it’s ironic because they talk out of both sides of their mouth. They’ll be like, you have no control over him, I have no control whether or not I am over him, but this will happen to you again if you don’t keep coming to meetings the rest of your life. I’m like, what? Tracy: It doesn’t make sense. Like, you can’t have all of these things be absolutes at the same time. Perception Vs. Reality Anne: Rather than thinking, how can I change my inner thoughts so that I can change reality, I think if victims are most interested in truth. What is the truth? In our case, what we’ve been perceiving incorrectly is that we’re in a relationship with a really good guy, who has a few small problems rather than the reality that he is an abusive person. Is it true? Regardless of how he looks at church, regardless of how good of a provider he is, are these behaviors that I’m experiencing abuse? Tracy: Yes, exactly. Positive Thinking As A Form Of Spiritual Bypass Tracy: More important than positive thinking. Because while positive thinking can be helpful sometimes, it can keep us in dangerous situations. I know a woman who experienced incredible betrayal trauma. A very sad story. And a friend wanted to be helpful. Let me help you reframe this experience to just look for the positive, imagine the good that can come of this. That’s not what she needs right now. Because I knew enough about her situation that what she needed was safety. She was not safe. Immediately jumping to, what are the lessons? Or what are the blessings that could come from this? Worst Case Scenario: Abuse & Minimization Anne: Everyone wants a happy, safe marriage. And so women have already been operating on that for years, where they’re like, okay, he can change. I will be patient as he changes. I will believe in Christ’s atonement. So they’re saying, I will be patient. Because I want this positive outcome. But when it comes to abuse, the worst case scenario is not divorce. You’re currently in the worst case scenario, abuse. And nothing will feel good. There’s nothing that’s going to feel peaceful. There’s nothing that’s going to feel right when it comes to abuse. Every effort you make to work towards safety will feel like, ugh, I don’t want to do this. Tracy: Truthful thinking is often painful. The reality of our situations hurts. So, it is tempting to minimize the pain of it and pretend it’s not as bad as it is. Post-Traumatic Growth Vs. Spiritual Bypass Tracy: For me, allowing myself to feel as broken as I was, that’s a starting place. And then diving into learning to have more compassion for myself. And giving myself grace for the things I’d been through. Where I had been victimized, and then integrating the story. So it’s like I can think back on my story, even the story I’m in right now, still, and not feel ashamed of it. Not feel this intense pain about it. It’s part of who I am now, and I wouldn’t be who I am now if I hadn’t been through that. This new humility where because I feel so much compassion for myself, it naturally extends to others. I just feel compassion for all my fellow human beings, whatever struggles they’re going through. It’s changed my perspectives on almost everything. It affected basically every part of my life. Using Spiritual Bypass Means Post Traumatic Growth Isn’t Possible Tracy: Surround yourself with safe people who can be patient with you, who can see you up close and personal, and not turn away. Anne: I think when women realize they were a victim. They don’t have to go to 12-step for the rest of their lives. There is no way to heal when using prayer for my husband as spiritual bypass. There’s nothing they did or can do that would have avoided it. And then learning new skills, learning new things about themselves. This can be a reason to learn and grow more. Trigger Warning: Positive Post Tracy: Exactly. And it’s not a straight and narrow path. It’s a long, winding, loop de loop kind of path. When I was in deep trauma, it was difficult for me to hear overly positive reflections on betrayal trauma from people at the other end of the tunnel. It felt painful and unrealistically optimistic. Like I couldn’t trust that these women were actually at peace with all that had happened. And I resented they were not giving justice to the pain they had endured. For me, for hope to feel legitimate, I have to hear and feel how dark it was before. If I just see an after picture, then I doubt the reality of the before picture. I have to see them side by side to fully appreciate and trust the miracle of the healing that has taken place. Not everyone here knows my story, or is witness to the depths of the pain and trauma I have experienced. The hopelessness, fear, confusion, paralysis, anger, loneliness, anxiety, depression, and deep sorrow. I do not ever want to minimize the pain and trauma of anyone, by glossing over the struggle and only celebrating the healing. Growth From Betrayal Trauma Because the struggle is real, and it is hard. And I believe in honoring the moment we are in, and the emotions that we are feeling. Because doing that is a key part of finding genuine peace and healing. But it’s hard to accept and honor where we’re at from a place of self compassion and love if we feel that others are not honoring it with us. Tracy: So, please know that I still hold a place for those of you in the depths of the struggle. It’s okay to struggle. It’s okay to feel whatever you are feeling. And I don’t judge you for any of it. I see you and I love you. So, after that lengthy disclaimer, I can finally say that I am grateful for my betrayal trauma. I woke up at 5 a.m. after a disturbing dream and couldn’t go back to sleep. And I was lying in bed and realized that I am grateful for it. I never thought I’d get to this point. I wasn’t sure if I ever even wanted to get to this point. But I am here, and I am glad. I am grateful for the person I am becoming because of what I have experienced. And I like me. I have learned things and grown in ways I am not sure I could have without experiencing the trauma of betrayal. Does this mean I would go back and choose to do this again? I don’t know. I’m not sure. Does it mean I would wish anyone else to be blessed with betrayal trauma? Hell no. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. Does it mean God predestined me to be betrayed by my husband, assigning this trial to me? No, I don’t believe that for a second. The Good & Bad Of Betrayal Tracy: He hasn’t condemned me for missing those warnings. He has loved me and helped me learn from the experience. And through the experience, I have learned that he wants me to be safe and to know happiness, and I have learned how to trust and rely on him to keep me safe and at peace. And if I miss another warning and fall into darkness again, he will be there to lift me up and guide me back to light and healing. None of the good that has resulted for me through this trauma takes away from the bad. I view them side by side. If I didn’t give full validation to the bad, I wouldn’t fully appreciate the good. Why would I want to cheat myself of greater joy by glossing over or denying the darkest parts of my journey? I will do my best to honor whatever moment I am in, knowing that things can always be changing. And I am not defined by any one moment. I don’t have to feel sad, or lonely, or angry forever. Just as I don’t expect to feel happy and positive all the time for the rest of my life either. The beauty is in the flow. Choosing safety And I think the gratitude and joy that we can feel if we allow it to come naturally, as opposed to chasing it is more genuine. That’s my experience. It was not helpful for me growing up as a child in a culture and family where I was constantly told I needed to choose to be happy. To choose not to let things bother me, and that I just needed to smile more. The ultimate spiritual bypass. It wasn’t helpful. It didn’t help me to be a happy kid. And in trauma, when I was legitimately a victim of a terrible thing, it was re-traumatizing and therefore actually stunted me a little bit. Until I recognize what goes on and set boundaries around people who were not safe. First of all, my own experience growing up, there was an absolute aversion to the word “feminist”, to the point that I never did any learning about it, I accepted that feminism was a bad thing. I grew up hearing the word feminazi used by people close to me. Which is a really derogatory, mean thing to say. Even in my adulthood, when I started opening myself up a little bit to some ideas in feminism, I thought, is there another term we can use? Is there another term? Is there another word we can use? But now, I have come to embrace and love the word. I consider myself a feminist. Not just a feminist, I consider myself a radical feminist. Feminism Vs. Spiritual Bypass Let’s see what Sarah Bessey says about it. She says, page 13 of her book, Feminism is complicated, and it varies for each person, much like Christianity. It’s not necessary to subscribe to all the diverse and contrary opinions within feminism to call oneself a feminist. God is the source of truth. Christians can still thank God for the good works associated with feminism, such as the gaining of status for women as persons under the law. Voting, owning property, and defending themselves in a court of law against domestic violence and rape. As Canadian theologian John D. Stackhouse, Jr. says, Christian feminists can celebrate any sort of feminism that brings more justice and human flourishing to the world. No matter who is bringing it, since we recognize the hand of God in all that is good. Modern Christian feminism is alive and well, from social justice movements to seminaries and churches to suburban living rooms worldwide. The Radical Notion Of Equality Tracy: At the core, feminism simply consists of the radical notion that women are people too. Anne: I was talking to someone about it. They were uncomfortable about the word feminist. And they said, well, I just don’t want it to swing too far. And I said, the pendulum cannot swing too far on equality. Like what? That we always have to keep women a little below men. No, it can swing as far as it needs to swing. Currently speaking, women are not believed. Women are not taken seriously. When they experience this extreme emotional and psychological abuse and oppression, they are blamed for it. If we talk about our experience, we shouldn’t talk about it in that way. And if we complain about it, we’re complaining too much about it. If we stay silent about it, we are in denial. There’s no way right now to appropriately protest it without being blamed in some way. Tracy: Right. Because it sounds radical. Anne: Yeah, it sounds extreme, right? Oh, she’s using this word abuse. It’s not that extreme. And you’re like, no, that’s actually what it is. And I’m not being extreme. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t think it can go too far when it comes to equality. So until women can be equally believed, as equally understood, as equally taken seriously. The pendulum has not swung far enough. Tracy: I love Sarah Bessey, she names one of her chapters: “Jesus Made a Feminist Out of Me” Feminism: Women Are Equal To Men Tracy: This was part of the transformation, the post-traumatic growth. It was tapping into this truth. That society had been suppressing in me for most of my life leading up to that point. On page 111, she’s talking about a difficult experience for herself, which had to do with pregnancy, but for me, it was betrayal trauma. And she says, but the truth remains, regardless of the circumstances unique to us. The voice of God has a habit of breaking through the noise of our lives, giving us a turning point. So that we mark the rest of our lives differently from that moment on. When we talk about these moments in our lives, we begin our stories with the words, and then everything changes. And that was betrayal trauma. And I’m a feminist now. Jesus made a feminist out of me. That was a natural result of healing in my life. It was a result of stopping the spiritual bypass. Anne: For women uncomfortable with this word feminist, I want you to consider who is telling you that feminists are bad? What is that about? Tracy: It’s because it’s a disruption of the status quo. It infringes on power structures as they are. It’s a threat to patriarchy. Patriarchy & prayer for my husband Tracy: I agree, though, with Sarah when she says patriarchy is not God’s dream for humanity. For a while, even after I began to embrace feminism. I still was like, but is there a way to make it work within patriarchy? Is there a way that patriarchy is still the right way and like, and we just have to tweak this or tweak that in prayer for my husband? And ultimately, no, I believe that patriarchy is the result of the fall, like that’s not how God intended men and women to interact. Men are legally in charge, they’re the organizers of society. And for most of human history, women didn’t have much power. I mean, they weren’t counted as humans. You’re literally treated as property. Which is the ultimate spiritual bypass. You don’t have freedom because God made it that way. You can’t vote, you have no say in how the laws are actually written that affect you. Results in a terrible, terrible experience for women and girls. But I would say it’s not healthy for boys and men either. Like, it’s not what God intended. It also sets these strict gender roles. I don’t think they’re helpful to men either. It’s comfortable for them because it was made to be more comfortable for them, but it’s still not the way God intended it. HOW RIGID “Gender Roles” KEEP WOMEN STUCK Anne: So you’ve got the class in charge, men. They can define these roles. So they want to define the situation that is the most comfortable for them. And so they’re telling women, well, you would be most comfortable if you acted like this. If you did this, rather than letting the women have a voice. The most logical way of doing a partnership with a husband and wife, would be, okay, we’re going to marry. Let’s sit down and talk about each of our talents. What are the things we enjoy and what are the things we’re good at? So I might say, I’m good at yard work. I’m excellent at gardening. I love being outdoors. I’m not so good at cooking and organizing food. That’s just not one of my talents. It’s not something I’m interested in, right? And then he would say, okay, these are the things I like. I also like being outdoors. I also like doing yard work. Great. We can do that together. And I also don’t like cooking. At that point where there’s this thing that’s like, huh, we both don’t like cooking, then the answer is not, well, you’re the girl. So you have to do it. Sometimes it sounds spiritual…like telling women the answer to their marriage issues is simply prayer for your husband. It still removes shared responsibility. Protecting Women’s Choices For Their Lives Anne: We want to protect women’s ability to choose the kind of life they want. That includes freedom from the idea that prayer for your husband is her primary job. Many people can hold a job, be a parent, and take a shower. And doing their laundry and eating. So this idea that women must do basic household tasks. Like laundry, cooking, cleaning and stuff like that. Because a human isn’t capable of doing basic self care things. And having talents, exploring their talents, and doing anything else is ridiculous. But everyone should be free to explore their own talents and what they’re good at. And what they’re interested in, and also be able to do regular household tasks. A person’s mission in life should not be just basic household tasks that everyone needs to know how to do. Tracy: Right, and if both the husband and the wife approached marriage in that way. Approached life in that way, then they could work that out together and form some sort of equilibrium. But forcing people into these specific gender roles, there are plenty of men who don’t feel comfortable being shoehorned in that way either. Anne: They don’t know how to fix the air conditioner. And so what do you do? You call an AC guy to fix your air conditioner. But then to say to a woman, well, you’re a woman, so you should be forced to cook. Working Out Marital Tasks Anne: It’s like, no, you’re not forcing me to fix the air conditioner. So what can we do to work this out? There are so many other options. If we’re willing to accept that God created each of us as individuals with talents to do his work. He hasn’t just said all women I created you with one job, domestic labor and prayer for your husband. Sorry, it’s your only option. Tracy: Once you move beyond, when her children are young and at home, women talk about feeling empty. Like, where’s my purpose anymore? How sad is that? Anne: My Mom, she’s only worked outside the home for a very short time, but she’s very handy. She knows how to tile, she’s a kitchen designer, she does electrical and plumbing and all kinds of things. And she remodeled our house a ton. She’s helping me remodel my house right now. In fact, that is the construction you can hear in the background if you’ve heard any of it. My Mom is out hammering and finishing my basement right now. She’s interested in construction. She loves it. Is she the best person at making dinner every night? No, that’s not one of her talents. But that doesn’t make her a bad mom. If she couldn’t explore her talents, and told to just be happy making dinner, that’s spiritual bypass. the Role “Biblical” Womanhood in prayer for my husband Anne: She’s an excellent, amazing mom, and loves construction. I’m grateful that even if she didn’t work in the construction industry, she could explore her talents. Even not working outside the home. So I’m not trying to say that women have to do it in a certain way or a way that they feel uncomfortable with. But having a man look at you and say, well, you have to clean the toilet because you’re a woman. That’s your job, is crazy. Tracy: It is. Anne: It can be anyone’s job. Tracy: Yeah, she talks a lot about this in Chapter 6, Patron Saints, Spiritual Midwives, and “Biblical” Womanhood. She says, the phenomenon of being a stay at home mother is relatively new and unique to the prosperous. Right along with daycares to provide child care. It’s a mark of our privilege to decide. Or to adjust our household budget to keep one parent at home full time with the children. I believe it is a worthy pursuit, good work, holy work. I hope so, it’s my own daily work. But it’s not the same thing as Biblical womanhood, is it? If a woman can enjoy the title in Haiti, or even by the woman hailed in scripture. The same way it can be by a middle class woman in Canada, then Biblical womanhood must be more than this. Jesus Defends Women’s Choices Tracy: I love the example she gives of Mary in the story of Mary and Martha. I had never read this story before. Mary was sitting at the feet of Jesus as a pupil. This is on page 19. She says, “The daughters had never had that spot. Even after Martha tried to remind her of her duties and responsibilities to their guests, Jesus defended her right to learn as his disciple. He honored her choice as the better and said it will not be taken away from her.” And what is she doing right there, but defying gender roles and cultural standards. Christ is honoring and encouraging her in that. So I never understood the story that way. Because in the church culture I grew up in, it was very much, no, to be a good woman, you do it this way. You fit this role, you think this way, you feel this way. You know spiritual bypass. Anne: This is similar to spiritual bypass and new age bypass. Religion and society tell women As a strong woman, I should bypass painful things and remain in prayer for my husband. Benevolent Patriarchy And Spiritual Bypass Anne: If you’re a real, true, righteous woman, then your husband wouldn’t be looking at porn, because your prayer for your husband would be powerful enough, and he wouldn’t want to do that. If you had enough faith in Jesus, you can create miracles in your family. There’s this intersection here between spiritual bypass and feminism. Tracy: That actually reminds me of benevolent patriarchy, which is what exists in my church organization. It says, “we’re going to put women on a pedestal. We’re going to talk them up. We’re going to talk about how wonderful they are, how spiritual they are, how incredible they are, how they are more inclined to righteousness than men are.” “They don’t have to work as hard for it. It just comes more naturally to them. But we don’t want to hear what they have to say. We don’t want their unique experiences. Because if their unique experiences contradict what we’re saying their experience should be, they’re not valuable anymore.” Anne: They’re more spiritual and better, but they can’t be trusted to lead. Tracy: Exactly. It doesn’t make sense. It’s very much a, as long as you’re falling in line and holding up this system, then your voice is valuable. And we will let you speak in prayer for my husband. But if that same woman says, well, this is my experience, and this is what God is teaching me. But it contradicts the status quo or infringes on the comfort of men. Then, suddenly, her voice is not valuable anymore. Suddenly, her access to the spirit must is impinged a form of spiritual bypass. Asking Too Much & Holding Men and Women To The Same Standard Anne: Wonky, she’s gone off the deep end. She’s a little cray cray. When women get labeled crazy or gone too far, usually it’s when they’re saying something that is right in line with church doctrine. So for example, most churches say abuse is wrong. But then they’ll be like, well, this woman is making this up, or she’s being too loud, or she’s talking about it in a way that’s not the right way. It’s like, but what I’m saying is exactly in line with what you profess to believe. Tracy: Stepping outside the church for a minute, just into a secular place. That reminds me that we had the first wave of feminists with suffragettes, getting the right to vote. Then we had the second wave feminists in the sixties and seventies. And then we had the third wave feminists a few decades later. We’re really just saying, look, we want to hold men to the same standard that we’ve been held to all along. And men resisted that, society resisted that, and labeled the feminists as a problem. Women In The Workforce Anne: On that note, I want to talk about women in the workforce. So many women, when they divorce or are considering a job or something. Many women think, okay, well, I want to be a therapist. Or they think, well, I’ll work at the library or at the school, or something that fits with, how can I be a mom? And I just want to shout out to women considering, how can you become more independent or use your talents better, or wha tever you feel like you need to do. There are so many needs for women in politics, in policing or in law, like becoming lawyers, becoming judges. I want women to open their minds to like, you can do anything, and you can help the world in so many ways. Pursuing Ambitions Despite Spiritual Bypass Tracy: As a kid, I had all those kinds of ambitions. I remember wanting to be a doctor, lawyer, teacher. Wanting to be an architect. I wanted to be a writer. But as I got older, I forgot about all of that. Because at my core, I believed that I couldn’t. And because of the way it was talked about, it was the way it was modeled for me. I was told, yes, you need to go to college and get a degree, so that you can get a job if your husband gets hit by a truck someday. That’s literally what I was told. It wasn’t so that… Anne: …so that you can fill the measure of your creation. Tracy: Exactly. It was always a backup plan. Like I had all these ambitions, and yet I felt these limitations made it very difficult to actually pursue any of that. because i was focused on prayer for my husband. Spiritual Bypass And The Struggle For Independence Tracy: And I ended up doing what my culture told me to do, which was get married young and focus on prayer for my husband. I barely graduated from college before my first baby was born. And didn’t get any real work experience, so although I have a degree, it’s sad. I feel embarrassed even talking about it, because it feels like a worthless piece of paper to me. Because I’ve never used it, and I have no serious career work experience. I’ve had little jobs here and there. But I was not set up to think about my life in terms of, oh yes, I could pursue a career. Because that could be a fulfilling thing for me. And beyond that, so many women in our community, for sure, feel so trapped. It’s just another layer to the difficulty of their situations. Because it’s difficult to see a way out when they have been financially dependent, and they feel so helpless. There are opportunities, and I love when women figure it out. But, oh, it adds so much more difficulty. Anne: Like, let’s say now at 40, you decided you would go to law school, you could do that, right? But then you’re 15 years behind the man who went to law school at 25. So that’s what makes it difficult, but that doesn’t make it impossible. It’s Never Too Late Anne: Women may think they’ve lost they’re chance to do that thing that you feel like in your heart, you always wanted to do. It could be that you want to be a painter, literally like paint people’s houses, not like an artist. It could be that you want to run a yard care business. I don’t know, whatever you enjoy, it is not too late. Will you be behind your male counterparts, who started when they were 25? Yeah, but I want women to know that if they start now with whatever they want to do. If they want to go to med school and finally graduate when they were 60, they could still be a doctor for 20 years from when they’re 60 to 80. You know, there’s always options. And I want women to realize that it’s not too late for you. Tracy: I see women go through the struggle because it’s a struggle. But then I see them do it, it’s incredible to see. Also, it sets a wonderful example for your children. HONORING CHOICES IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND Anne: Yeah, now that being said, so many women want to stay at home and I honor that choice as well. I remember when I had my son and I was thinking about going back to work, because at the time my husband didn’t have a job. My son was nursing. And so just the thought of leaving him to work horrified me. I did not want to do that. So I want to honor women who are like, no, no, I need to be with my children. This is what I need to do. Supporting Women’s Choices Anne: Because those things are important, and supporting women in their choices and what they feel they need to do in their lives. Our aim here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery is to support, validate, encourage, and be there for you regardless of what you choose. We care about you and love you and validate you and want you to do what’s right for you, whatever that is. Tracy: Yes, for women unfamiliar or a little uncomfortable with the idea of feminism. You don’t have to align yourself politically with a particular brand of feminism to call yourself a feminist. There are pro-life feminists. If that’s an issue for some women. Yeah, just don’t be afraid of the word. There’s no shame in the word. Women Deserve Peace & Safety Anne: It can mean many things to many people, but the cool thing is you can define your own type of feminism. You can define the way you want to promote equal rights for yourself in your own life, and also for women throughout the world. It can help us overcome spiritual bypass. This podcast more than anything is to help women come out of the fog of emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. And be able to live lives of peace and safety. That is what women deserve.

Transcribed - Published: 3 December 2024

If your husband is constantly on the phone, here's what you need to know.

Transcribed - Published: 3 December 2024

Do you feel like something is “off” with your husband? If you’re asking, “Why is my husband constantly on his phone?” Here’s what couple therapists or clergy won’t tell you. Dr. Hastings and Dr. Lucero Jones are on the podcast talking about their groundbreaking research on how a husband’s pornography use affects his wife. You deserve support, learn about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. 4 Ways To Find Support When He’s Constantly On His Phone Listen to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast Attend a BTR.ORG Group Session Meet with a BTR Coach for an Individual Session Call a safe person to share your feelings. No Matter What He’s Doing On His Phone, You Can Choose Emotional & Sexual Safety Here at BTR.ORG, we understand the overwhelming chaos you feel when you discover your husband is constantly on his phone because he’s using exploitative material. Just brushing your teeth can feel like an insurmountable task. Try to remember to give yourself grace as you process this new information, and give yourself the space to create emotional safety for yourself, rather than immediately “working on the marriage”. Transcript: Why is My Husband Constantly on His Phone? Anne: I have Dr. Heidi Hastings and Dr. Rebecca Lucero Jones on today’s episode. Dr. Hastings recently completed her PhD in family studies at Texas Women’s University. Her research is on religious women who married men who are constantly on their phones using exploitative material. Dr. Lucero Jones is a practicing marriage and family therapist and professor of marriage and family therapy at Texas Women’s University. Together, they have researched women who have experienced betrayal, and I’m so excited to share their research with us today. Welcome. Heidi: Thanks, Anne. We’re happy to be here. Rebecca: Thank you. We’re glad to be here. Research Focus: Religious Women & Betrayal When He’s Always On His Phone Anne: So in your studies, you develop the five stages of betrayal and self development. Why don’t we start there? Heidi: So we are interested in the experience of religious women when their husbands are always on their phones. We recruited women from non-denominational Christian religions, from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, several Protestant Christian religions, fundamentalist Christian religions, Jewish religions, and we had one Muslim participant, and Catholic. We also had a few women in different religions who moved towards spirituality instead. So, our range of religious representation here is pretty broad. Rebecca: We conducted interviews with 31 women of various denominations and sects of different religions, and wanted to understand their experience as a whole and understand the process they go through. Maybe even before they find out that their husband has some sort of compulsive behaviors. Then what happens afterwards, and kind of where do they eventually land. As we asked them these questions, they told us their stories of their experiences of discovery that what’s he’s always doing on his phone is looking at online exploitation. And also of how they coped and what happened with the marriage. What kind of help they sought out. Their experience with their religions, religious leaders, other family members, friends, just anybody in their social circles. From that, we developed this model that showed us that there were actually five distinct stages that women went through. But we also noticed a lot of self-development throughout their healing process. When He’s Always On His Phone: Understanding Religious & Cultural Scripts Heidi: So the first stage is religious, family, and cultural scripts. Which scripts are, if you think about a play, somebody gets a script that tells them this is how they behave. Before the discovery that their husband was using his phone for secretive things, often even before marriage. This understanding from a religious perspective facilitated her creation of beautiful, yet innocent core beliefs. About herself, her marriage, her faith, and her relationship with God. Her personal identity was often abandoned, for the couple’s identity created at marriage. While these women had innocent beliefs that are beneficial to many women. For women I interviewed, their innocence later proves problematic. Innocent Beliefs & Their Consequences When He’s Always On His Phone Heidi: So the things that religion brings to many beautiful marriages. Actually compromised some parts and made them susceptible to danger, abuse, and trauma. They described these initial innocent beliefs as naive and shallow, shameful or confusing later on. Their naivety was also seen in women who knew about their husband’s constant phone use before marriage. So we did have several women for whom it wasn’t secret. Most of the time, they tell her it’s not a big deal. I’ve taken care of it. It’s no longer an issue. Or they tell her, and the women believed when we marry, we can have all of it we want. So the desire to use their phones constantly isn’t going to be an issue anymore. It’s just going to go away. Anne: Marriage is going to be the solution. Heidi: Marriage will be the solution, yes. Marriage Myths & Realities When He’s Addicted To His Phone Anne: That is a common myth. That even sometimes church leaders perpetuate that marriage will solve his constant exploitative content problem, or maybe his immaturity problem. If he’s immature, he should probably just get married. And then he’ll be fine, rather than wait a minute, solve the problem first. Heidi: Exactly. So even those women who knew he uses his phone constantly to access it ahead of time truly underestimated the problem. So each of the women in our study had a unique belief system and path leading to the discovery of how problematic it truly was. But there were many common characteristics that describe the process. That most of the women went through in this stage. Their naive beliefs about gender, and God, really influenced their understanding at this point. Naivety About What He’s Really Doing On His Phone Anne: When you say naive, it sounds like victim blaming-ish. But not simultaneously, right? Heidi: That’s why we also use the word innocent, yes. Anne: Innocent, but also maybe even faithful. Heidi: That’s a good point. Anne: They believed what their church leaders told them. If their church leader said, “if you obey the commandments and if you marry a “good guy”.” Under these circumstances, your marriage will be good. They checked all those boxes and had faith, thinking, “I did everything I was supposed to do”. It wasn’t a naive thing. I listened to my leaders and did what they said. I wasn’t naive, I had a college degree.” Rebecca: The reason we chose the word naive is that it is the word the women use. So many times with this research, we try to use the words of the participants. So we capture their experience as they experienced it. And I think maybe that is a resentment towards your earlier self, right? At that time, I just listened to my leaders, and I let them tell me what was best, and I ignored my gut. So I think there might be a little bit of resentment when they’re using that word. I think you’re right. That whether we use the word naive or faithful, it’s capturing this thing women are often taught. That they are better women. You’re a good woman. If you’re more innocent, pure, you believe, faithful, and we are taught to listen to leaders. Religious Leaders’ Influence Rebecca: Many times, in the religious context in which many of these women operate, we have quotes from the women. Where they met with a pastor or church leader, or not as much with the rabbis, but with different leaders. And they were directly told to submit to their husbands that their husbands will lead them in this arena. That they would be safe, and that their husbands knew what they were doing. So you’re right, many women did, I would say, appease their husband’s requests. That they went along with these things. Because religious leaders are directed to listen to their husband or that they could trust their husband. Heidi: Particularly for those that aligned with fundamentalist religions. And they had innocent or naive beliefs about what he’s constantly doing on his phone. And that’s just that it’s bad, that’s all they knew. This is bad, people who view it are bad. And that was an incomplete understanding they later identified. Anne: Also a lack of education about emotional and psychological abuse, coercion, and rape even. So with that lack of education that the religion didn’t give them. They didn’t say, okay, we’re going to teach you about marriage. But also read the Bible and read this book about abuse before you marry? There wasn’t that. So in terms of abuse education, they didn’t have the exposure to it. Lack of Education On Abuse & Coerction Heidi: Well, and even one step further, they didn’t even have education surrounding sexuality. They entered it in a very pure and innocent way. Often expecting their husband to guide and show them the way. Which most men had constantly watched it on their phone and it was their education, and there’s just a big dissonance. Anne: Abuse is their education. Rebecca: And I would say not only not being aware of rules of consent, but also knowing about abuse. But also not having a roadmap for healthy intimacy. Because many times in religions, it’s like no intimacy. And then suddenly it’s a free for all. And you’re just supposed to know what that looks like. So there’s no roadmap for what healthy looks like. https://youtu.be/bV3mhCAOAOA And I will say in the interviews, it’s clear within the religious context. The message women receive is say yes to everything. There is no consent. So church leaders teach them to say yes to everything. So you don’t have any agency within the relationship. Your husband will take care of you. Just trust him. So I would say even basic things like agency, consent. Learning how to figure out what feels good in your body is very important. There’s a real absence of that in the religious context. Rape & Lack Of Choice When He Uses His Phone All The Time Heidi: One Catholic woman reported that in her Pre-Cana, which is meeting with the priest before her marriage. Her priest said to her, “Your husband has a right to have it”. He has a right to conjugal visits, and you can’t say no. And in hindsight, she was horrified that he’d used the word conjugal visits. Like it was a jail or a prison. Anne: If you can’t say no, that priest is saying your husband can rape you. Rebecca: That’s the sad thing, right? This is often the arrangement of the marriage. Consent is not even part of the equation. There’s no equity in the relationship, there’s no freedom. Anne: You have the right to say no, which you technically do have the right to say no. But they don’t think they do. Which is rape. Rape is being supported by these religious scripts. Rebecca: A lot of them, it was not happening. But there were definitely some of our participants who said, looking back, this was definitely abuse. This was definitely rape, but at the time they couldn’t see it. Because they marry with a larger social script saying, you always say yes. But how do you say yes? If you always have to say yes. You can’t, it doesn’t mean anything. Anne: It is the definition of rape, and nobody taught him that. If you can’t say no, it’s rape. Trusting Without Trustworthiness Heidi: We definitely had some participants who realized that later, but they didn’t even understand it at the time. Because through religious messaging, they had such explicit trust in their husbands. That allowed them to be really emotionally, and physically vulnerable. It gave them a false sense of security, because they thought their husbands would be loyal and faithful. Especially when they belong to the same religion. They had so much trust for them that they made these naive assumptions. And the assumptions were that they’d be trustworthy, monogamous, exclusive, they’d avoid it. Even though there wasn’t any behavioral evidence for doing so. And they assume their relationship would be healthy, robust and intimate. Which many of them were the exact opposite, but they relinquish power. Knowingly for some women because they’ve been told to, but for others they unconsciously yield to his needs. For his preferences, and they didn’t know their own. Many of them started to be silent. Anne: Well, it’s interesting to me that victims don’t recognize they are doing that for emotional safety or psychological safety. Because of her emotional safety, her financial safety depends on him. They are really weighing out the pros and cons of, is this safe for me to do, is this not? If I don’t have it with him, he’s going to be angry. When He’s Constantly On His Phone Doing Harmful Things, It’s An Abusive Situation Anne: He might yell at me. It’s going to be scary. And that’s why this kind of use, at least the way we approach it here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, is a domestic abuse issue. Because if you’re coming at it from a place of fear. And the reason why you’re agreeing is because you’re silenced, afraid, or you feel like you have to. Then, you’re in an abusive situation. And so many women have these concerns and worries. They don’t know to define it as abuse. Did they define it as abuse in the study? Heidi: In this first innocent stage, specifically, the kind of relationships or abuse you’re talking about weren’t on the forefront of their mind. That comes later on, but I would say very few saw it as abuse. Some did after some work with coaches, but largely at this point, no. Anne: Well, that’s what I see too. Rebecca: When we recruited our participants, we found that over half of the men have extramarital behaviors. So it isn’t just exploitative content. Women are not saying, oh my husband looked at one picture. He’s got a problem, and they’re making a big fuss of it. Women are complaining because there is a lot going on in the background. There is a lot of lying, there is no intimacy. There are many problems in the marriage that make a woman say, “Something’s off here”. Something’s wrong. It’s not just he looked at some pictures, right? The Crisis Stage Begins When You Discover What He’s Doing On His Phone Heidi: That said, we did have one participant, probably her level of PTSD was one of the two or three highest in all of the group. And she had just seen one picture her husband had looked at. They were Christian missionaries in the mountains of Mexico, and that put her over the edge. The idea of this innocence then shifts into what Anne was saying through stage two, which is crisis. Anne: We talk about this one man somewhere who might look at it and be a nice guy. The women who come to BTR, none of them have that experience. It’s that they try to get help, they try to figure it out, and no one told them it was abuse. That’s why it’s the best support for betrayal trauma. And so they couldn’t find their way out. Because it was more like put your shoulders to the wheel sort of thing. Like help him with his addiction and stand by your man kind of stuff. And at least from the women I’ve sampled, which is not everyone, but it’s never just this one time this guy looks at this one picture. So for that woman in the mountains, there’s probably so much abuse going on that she didn’t even realize, lying, gas lighting, and psychological abuse. Which is why she reacts the way she did She might not have even been aware of it when she described it to you. Which is so hard, because women who don’t have abuse education can’t describe what it is. It makes it hard to grasp what’s happening, because they’re not going to say, yes, this was psychological abuse. Out Of Boundary Behaviors Rebecca: I think you’re right. I mean, anytime I have someone coming in and discussing any sort of, it could be texting, it could be a picture. I can never know the depth of what’s going on because many times people will come and catch somebody. Or somebody disclosed some sort of behavior. That’s outside of, I would say what we call the marital contract, right. Anne: There’s boundaries or something, yeah. Rebecca: That they have set, right. Every couple may have different boundaries. But whatever boundaries they’ve set, there’s some sort of behavior outside of that, and as a therapist, I always have to remember. I can never know whether they’re being honest with me. Like you said, there could be many behaviors going on. But if the woman is desperate to save the marriage. She will also not create a narrative for the therapist that says, yes, he looked at this picture. And there’s also this thing where I don’t feel like I can do what I want. Also, I don’t have agency in my life, and I don’t have control of my finances. Many of that stuff takes time to come out. And so it is hard, because there’s so much invested in saving the marriage. Sometimes, one, the man is not honest, he’s hiding something. And two, the woman does not know about the things she’s experiencing. Anne: She can be completely honest. She’s just not educated about abuse. Rebecca: Yeah. Recognizing His Behaviors Are Abusive Anne: What I’ve seen most of the time. If I say, did you know that’s abuse? They’re like, what? Well, he’s not punching me in the face. So as they transition to stage two, let’s talk about that now. Rebecca: I’ll talk about that. Stage 2 we named crisis. This is often where things are starting to unravel for the woman. So one of the first things that happens for her is that she notices something isn’t right in the marriage. So it can be that her husband is withdrawing. Many women talk about how it starts to not happen as much or at all. Maybe she buys new lingerie and he has no reaction. It could be other behaviors, but she is noticing that something isn’t right in the marriage. Something is off. And so often, when this happens, she may try to compensate to stabilize the relationship. So that can look like doing acts that maybe before she wasn’t willing to do. It can look like offering herself up at different times that she wasn’t wanting to. That can look a lot of different ways . The Traumatic Impact of His Constant Phone Use Rebecca: And then one of the most important things that happens in the crisis stage is discovery. Sometimes men would come forward, maybe they listened to a sermon that made them feel guilty. And they may actually confess to their wives what has been happening. Then suddenly he’s like, actually, you know what, I have continued to do this. He’ll share that. And sometimes they’re walking in on their husbands viewing this stuff. And many times the women are having traumatic responses. Especially if she sees him in the act of masturbation while watching something. It’s very traumatic if she sees that happening in real time. Heidi: It was especially traumatic if she actually saw what he was looking at. Because most women imagine it as something that would appear in a magazine. But when she saw the severity, intensity, violence, whatever it was. That really created severe shock and trauma responses. Rebecca: A lot can come from that. A client stumbled upon what her husband had been viewing on his phone. And she was disturbed to find that the people he was looking at looked like her. And we had one person in our study who was Black, and I don’t remember the race of the woman he watched, but it wasn’t hers. When He Uses His Phone Objectification Women Rebecca: It’s interesting whether it’s someone who looks like you or doesn’t look like you. I think it triggers this thing inside of you. Where you don’t know what your husband’s attracted to. You don’t know if he marries you, because you’re his fantasy versus a real person. I think it just objectifies you either way. The meaning you make around that may vary depending on what he’s viewing. But either way, I think the woman begins to realize that she’s questioning whether he sees her as a full person. Who he is engaging with versus these images. And so it’s very traumatic, and many women can’t speak. They literally cannot speak for 20, 30 minutes, an hour, they are completely speechless. They have visceral reactions in their body. Some of them talk about feeling the life drain out of them. Some of them got very ill. We have some women talk about immediately feeling suicidal, where there was no suicidal ideation before this. So we see a lot of symptoms physiologically. Research shows that in Iraqi troops, rates of PTSD were as high as 35%. But we know that with those who experience betrayal trauma, the rates of PTSD can be even higher. And so I think that’s important. We do a lot in our country in America for veterans, because they experience PTSD symptoms. But it is important, I think, for clinicians, friends, families and those experiencing this, to know that PTSD is common. And many times we are not recognizing that with infidelity or compulsive behaviors, the partners are experiencing a bit of trauma. Trying To Find Emotional Safety When He’s Always on His Phone Rebecca: This is something that many people don’t like to talk about. They talk about it as a relationship problem, not as a traumatic experience. So really, it is a crisis when the woman experiences this. Because it’s not just, Oh, we got marriage problems. She’s also having a very physiological response to learning about her husband’s behaviors. When the crisis hits, many times women don’t know how to proceed. No one’s prepared them for this. And so many times they’re in a hurry to keep themselves safe, and that makes sense. Anne: That’s what we do here at BTR, strategic boundaries! This is why I wrote The Living Free Workshop. Heidi: BTR really does come in nicely in this stage and in the next stage. In fact, one of our participants mentioned nine times in her interview about BTR. Which is what helps us decide that it might be a good idea to talk to you. But one of the decisions they make often is that they’re going to have a lot of it with him to try to fix that. That’s not fully thought out. But it is one of the things that emerged in the interviews that is happening right after the discovery. Anne: Thinking that was maybe the cause, they didn’t have enough of it. Heidi: Right Feeling Silenced & Shame When He Ignores Me To Use His Phone Rebecca: So following that, many women feel silenced. It is so hard for anyone, I think, to tell your friend that your husband has cancer. But telling him he has an addiction problem, strip clubs or seeing prostitutes is not on the list of things you’re going to share. Even with a best friend, even with family, there’s so much shame around this. And what it might say about the woman. There’s so much onus put on, like, well, you didn’t have enough with him. Those are definitely messages I think within the cultural context that these women are operating in. And so the shame just absolutely silences the women. So they’re in this crisis. Many of them talked about how much they’d been through in their lives. And this was by far the worst thing. We’re talking like a lot of painful things in people’s lives. And that this is the hardest. I think one of the reasons it is the hardest is because there is so much invested in their silence. Whether it’s the man in a church position or in the military. We noticed that many times these men had high profile positions. Whether they were in the context of the religion or outside, that made it feel impossible for her to disclose to anybody of status of what was going on. Because a lot of times it might hurt her. Pressure To Keep It Secret Rebecca: So like one person shared that her husband was a high ranking military personnel. She said she couldn’t disclose that he’s an adulterer. Because if he was caught for that, he might get demoted and kicked out. And she’s going to lose all her benefits, and she’s going to lose their military retirement. So there are really not many policies and procedures in place to protect women when men behave in this way. So we saw a lot of silencing of the women. That was something that I think kept them in a place of shame. Anne: How will I take care of my kids? How will I put food on the table? And those are really just typical, checklist definitions of domestic abuse. Heidi: Well, and those who weren’t afraid were necessarily embarrassed that it made them look like they weren’t enough. That they weren’t good enough in bed, that they weren’t a good enough person to keep their husband tied to them. Very complex decision making that goes on that keeps them silent at that point. Anne: Well, and that’s also the psychological abuse. They’ve been manipulated to think they’re not a good enough person. They’ve been manipulated to think they’re not good enough in bed, because he blames her for everything. Heidi: Sometimes during that crisis, they tried to tell a family member, they tried to tell a religious leader, they tried to tell a therapist that didn’t result in actual help. And so that’s in part what leads to this aftermath stage of, I’ve tried to get help for some of them. Some of them, I was the first person they’d ever told, but some had made attempts and It was hurtful rather than helpful. The Aftermath Of Betrayal Anne: Yeah, we see that a lot here, yeah. Rebecca: So that leads us into our third stage, which we call the aftermath. In the aftermath, the woman is left with this severed trust and attachment. Many women give up a lot to marry and trust their husband. And then now their husband has let them down in such a major way. With the level of deception that has occurred, in the level of behaviors that have occurred without her knowing. Without her consent. And so many times in the wake of this betrayal, not knowing what to do at this point. Can they restore trust? Can this be fixed? And so with that comes not just the questioning of, I would say, the marriage, but a questioning of everything they once believed. Questioning Faith & Trust Rebecca: Many of these women, because they’re religious and trust God, are marrying somebody within their religion. Many times that feels like they’re making the right choices. Especially when they’re caught off guard. It feels like, why didn’t God warn me? Why didn’t God help me learn this earlier? I mean, we’re talking to some women finding this out after 30 years of marriage. So it’s a long time to feel like God didn’t even give me a heads up. So many of them ask, you know, God, why’d you allow this to happen to me? Why did you allow me to marry him? Anne: Did you notice they also simultaneously said, and I don’t know if they did? But sorry, I’m just wondering. Because I see this a lot, that they also simultaneously said God kind of did warn them. Like they knew in their gut that something was wrong, and they couldn’t figure out what it was. Or did some of them just say they had no idea and it came out of nowhere? Heidi: I think that’s where that something isn’t right comes in. They knew something was not right in that second stage of crisis. Anne: They just didn’t identify it as a spiritual warning maybe? Caught Off Guard Rebecca: I wouldn’t say they knew. Because I’m going to guess that many of these women are the praying kind. And I would say that if they feel something is off. Then I would imagine they would ask God about that. So I did not get the impression, that inclination, that something’s off from God. I feel like they, many of them, felt pretty abandoned in the moment of the crisis. And many times, because for some people, the lies were severe. There was one person whose husband was with 300 prostitutes. So we’re talking about a lot of lies. And I think it’s so different from their relationship with God. They’ve probably felt like they’ve received answers from God. And that it’s probably why they feel abandoned. Because they’ve probably felt guided by God in a lot of areas of their life. And then now they’re finding out there are all these secrets in this part of their life. And I think that is probably what makes it not make sense. How’s God been helping me in these ways? But with this major thing, I’m totally caught off guard. And many women are caught off guard. There were some people who were not from the U.S., from Europe, and some Jewish women. And I would say in those cultures, this kind of viewing is considered more normative. And so many times they are still caught off guard. Because they were taught to watch it sometimes as a normal behavior. And then they saw their husband’s mental health really decline, and physical health even declined because he’s always on his phone. Spiritual Experiences Amidst Crisis Rebecca: Sometimes they’re even shocked to discover it. And again, I think it’s because in their minds, they didn’t know what he was doing on his phone. So even those women raised in a climate where using a phone all the time wasn’t a big deal still experienced a level of shock, which is interesting. Anne: Yeah, that makes sense. Rebecca: Yes. And so they were surprised to see that it was a big deal. So I think they were like, no, this can be a problem. It’s not, yeah, it’s not just pictures. Heidi: All this questioning is going on. There are many women who are also having spiritual experiences with God at this time. So we had both camps going on that they felt they had dreams, heard voices, felt a presence near them. They had these spiritual experiences going on. I don’t want to discount the women who weren’t going through a faith crisis of sorts because of this. But many of them questioned not only their faith, but they questioned everything they knew about their husband. Heidi: Okay, so if this isn’t true, what else isn’t true. Anne: Well, and they should in that moment. Heidi: Right? Their whole reality in every way. They couldn’t figure out what is real. Anne: He’s just shown himself as a compulsive liar. If they didn’t do that, it wouldn’t be normal. Ignoring Gut Feelings Anne: I’m still fascinated, and many women don’t, so this is not a new idea. But I just want to point out that it’s interesting that women don’t recognize their own gut feelings through the abuse, through the psychological abuse and the gaslighting and the institutional gaslighting going on. They don’t see it as God telling them something. So then rather than thinking, God’s trying to tell me something, I need to listen. I need to listen. They think, oh, I must be crazy. Heidi: And that’s a big thing that we heard. Anne: He’s telling me I’m crazy. My priest tells me I’m cuckoo. I asked too many questions. I just need to chill out, rather than think God is trying to tell me something. And then even after finding out. That something was wrong, rather than thinking, Oh, God did warn me. He was trying to warn me the whole time. They’re still thinking, I’m stupid. I didn’t see it. Everyone including my husband says I’m the problem. That’s what makes me sad. Every place they turn to try to understand what’s happening or get help, they’re just kind of squashed down. Repeatedly over the years, which I think is like the culmination of the 20 years of trauma when they figure out what he’s been doing. It’s not just that one thing. It’s like the culmination of institutional abuse, the psychological abuse, and the societal abuse is like sort of coming to a head. And so that’s so painful. Developmental Lens Heidi: Well, and also, because we’re looking at this through a developmental lens. We have to remember that in that stage of innocence, their ability to recognize that intuition, their ability to recognize maybe spiritual promptings is less developed. Than it becomes later through experience. So a lot of experiential learning teaches us how to be more attuned to our own agency to making choices for ourselves, to our own power as women. And at some stages, they weren’t experienced in that yet. And that comes with more experience. Anne: Well, and also the result of that, if you’re like, okay, well, my pastor told me it’s fine. So I guess that’s okay, because you haven’t yet seen the end result. So in that moment you think, Oh, I must be crazy. It is fine. I don’t know why I’m making a big deal out of this, because he is nice. Everything’s okay. What was I freaking out about? But then two years later, five years later, 20 years later, you’re like, Oh, this is what I was freaking out about, no wonder. But in that moment, because you don’t know what’s happening, it’s hard to wrap your head around it. Heidi: Yeah, they had no comprehension. Coping Mechanisms & Seeking Emotional Safety Rebecca: Many women were desperate to fix the marriage, to fix what was broken. So many times that’s trying to help him, help him overcome the addiction. Maybe having more. And many of them talked about how that was a strategy they tried to use. But it never worked, because the lack of it, was not the problem. And so a lot of desperation to fix things. Another important part of this was how women were coping. Some women were coping by using their religion or spirituality as a resource. Many of them spent a lot of time in prayer or meditation seeking solace. But then some other women had some, I would say, more maladaptive coping strategies like drinking. Many times, there were not many resources available to these women. Heidi: It’s mostly maladaptive, like starving themselves, focusing on their body. How it’s not good enough, screaming, yelling, trauma responses. Rebecca: As they’re trying desperately to fix it and salvage it. Anne: And I would say control is safety seeking. In a, I need some semblance of emotional safety, psychological safety. Rebecca: Many times, the women have not been able to do it on their own. So many times when we were talking about how this is too big, this is going to kill me. They can’t manage it. When You Find Out: Handing It To God Rebecca: And at that point, they’re ready to give it to God, because they cannot hold it. It is too big for them to fix it, fix the marriage, and fix what’s wrong with their husband. And so at this point, many of them are ready to hand it to God. Heidi: Or to just a level of acceptance. Some that didn’t necessarily align with God maybe thought more of it as a higher power. Or just acceptance that this was the state they were in and they couldn’t handle it. Anne: Just accepting the situation. Like, okay, this is a situation, and there’s nothing I can do about it. That kind of acceptance? Heidi: Right. I can’t control what has happened. Healing From Being Ignored By Your Husband Heidi: So the fourth stage is healing. After they’re realizing they have no control over what has happened, they start grabbing hold of this power within themselves. It almost seemed like, and they start vulnerably breaking their silence. Many for the first time, they are desperate to find help, ask for help through therapists, sometimes through religious leaders or different religious leaders. Because maybe who they’d gone to before wasn’t helpful. But they in the past didn’t have the language to speak about these shameful topics. So many of the women started their learning process, their learning journey, their healing process through books, podcasts, websites, social media. Things that you have through BTR, anything that they could find on addiction or on betrayal, trauma, or infidelity. If that was part of their experience. They sought out support groups like yours. And the more quickly they broke their silence, they reduced shame. Which getting rid of shame was key to healing, the less time they spend in those crisis and aftermath stages. So some women had spent decades in crisis and aftermath, but finally, when they start learning and getting ahold of resources, they can start healing. And so we appreciate the work you do to help women heal. Support From God Heidi: Additionally, many women leaned heavily upon and reported receiving support from God, like I mentioned. But even at a different level, when they had religious leaders that would actually validate them, see them. Anne: Which is rare. How many of the 31 you interviewed had that? Heidi: I think many women went to several religious leaders, so they would find some that didn’t work, and then they would change congregations. Anne: So it’s hit and miss. Heidi: Find different pastors, it was definitely hit and miss, but there were some who had really phenomenal support from religious leaders. Jewish Woman’s Story Heidi: One that comes specifically to mind was a Jewish woman, who her friends said, “We’re taking you to see the rabbi”. And the rabbi happened to be a woman. And she said she pushed it away. She kept saying no, because she was so embarrassed. Her husband’s in a high profile position. But she finally went to see the rabbi, and the rabbi took her to the mikveh. Which is a sacred immersion in living waters in the Jewish tradition that symbolizes coming out of the Garden of Eden. And they enter the waters completely naked, immersing themselves back into the waters of creation for purposes of rebirth and renewal. Like a new start, we’re going to wash away all the corruption, all the negativity, all the pain, the suffering, and start new. And it didn’t happen immediately for her, but the step that that religious leader took to help her see that she was cared for. She was validated, that was so meaningful. And there were a few stories of women who had great experiences with religious leaders, typically that they helped women find resources. Not that they necessarily tried to handle it, control it, or fix it on their own. But they were able to access resources for the women to get them help immediately. Learning About Abuse When You’re Trying To Figure Out What He’s Doing Heidi: And then with that support that the women got, usually in groups. They learned how to set intentional boundaries that allowed them to feel more empowered, protected and safe. As you’ve said, one of the interesting findings in this stage. Or about betrayal, or relationships or even God in new ways, played a significant role in their healing. And in the reconstruction of their identity. Because they for so long during this crisis and aftermath stage, they didn’t know who they were anymore. Even learning for a new career or any kind of learning seemed to open up pathways of healing. This is the first time many of them start caring for themselves. Because they, for so long, had been conditioned to care for everyone else first. But once they started implementing those self care strategies, they recognized how much it could improve relationships with their children. Several women reported how art, poetry, music, dance, or any other types of artistic forms were key to their healing. Quilting was another big one. And perhaps part of that is because quilting is often done in groups of women and provides support in many ways. So those artistic forms brought comfort and understanding, coping and peace. And especially, I think, like I said, quilting. There are other things, dancing with other women, doing just movement. Other Ways Of Healing Heidi: So through these different forms of healing, they started to see their reality through new, more educated and experienced lenses. They started to see the injustices they’d experienced during this stage. And I think what you’re doing helps teach women. Help them also see, Oh my goodness, I didn’t even recognize that when I didn’t give consent, that could be rape or abuse. Anne: You mentioned a bunch of things they learned about, like addiction and other things. They didn’t mention abuse? They didn’t say I learned so much about abuse. Heidi: No, there were a few who said they had learned that their husband’s way of having it with them was abusive. That was about the only thing they saw as abuse. But many of them had talked about gas lighting, which I think you consider abuse, right? Anne: Yeah, because the person’s purposefully trying to alter their reality. Heidi: So they didn’t use that language, but they started, like I said, to see the injustices they’d experienced. And they started to see parts of the religious narratives that had contributed to the marginalization of women. And led them to assume they were responsible for their husband’s behavior. Which now they could see, Oh my goodness, that’s not truth. So as their self awareness expanded, they started to expand their self development and understanding of who they are and their own use of their agency. Spiritual Trauma From His Constant Phone Use Anne: And spiritual trauma, that happens too, because it’s the opposite of what they’ve been taught. That if you just love, serve, forgive and self sacrifice, you’ll have enlightenment. And they’re like, well I did all that, and I for sure was not enlightened. I was, in fact, kept in the dark, and now I’m having more enlightenment than ever. And it’s focusing on my own interests. It’s a weird place to be, because it feels so good and freeing. And then also kind of like, but this is the opposite of what I was taught. So it’s also a confusing time, I think. Heidi: Because often I think in religious marriages, they’re taught, be one and sacrifice. Women Being In Sacrificial Roles Heidi: And those things are truly important, but they’re important in a safe and healthy relationship. And I think the more we give women the language and power to do that. The examples, the more it’s modeled for them, the more they’ll take that upon their own way of doing things. But when you’ve especially seen a mother as a sacrificial role, we take that script and believe that that is the way we behave. Anne: Well, because if she tried to do anything else, people were like, you’re selfish. Heidi: Exactly. Anne: And it wasn’t okay for her to want to do something, which is sad. That was my personal situation with my abusive ex, because I was like, nope, this is what I want to do. And I’m going to do it. And I was the most terrible woman in the world because women aren’t supposed to be like that. They’re supposed to be kind and loving, and they’re supposed to sacrifice for their family. And yet his dysfunctional family was doing that, what they wanted to do. But instead of saying, Oh, I just want to do this, so I’m doing it. They were like, I’m doing this because I love you. And I’m doing this because I’m so righteous. And so, because I wasn’t apparently saying it the right way, you can’t just say it’s because I want to do it. I was actually not doing what I was supposed to do, apparently. Spiritual Abuse When He Blames You For His Constant Phone Use Heidi: There were several women during stage four, where they started to see things differently. They did talk about spiritual abuse. That they recognized it was going on in their relationship. I was thinking more, you’re talking about coercion and emotional abuse. But I would say perhaps the effects of spiritual abuse is what they most identified. Or at least spoke of during that stage, where they start seeing what’s going on. Rebecca: I want to add that anytime you’re in a relationship with someone who has any sort of spiritual authority over you. Which often, I would say, within different religions, the man is seen as a little like the head of the household. Or spiritual kind of leader in the home. Intimate abuse is spiritual abuse. Because if the person who abuses you has spiritual power over you, just by that alone. That person is a person through which your relationship with God is somewhat filtered through that person. So I think spiritual abuse is actually much more common than I think people actually talk about. Anne: Well, not just from the abusive spouse, but also secondarily through the help they might try to get from a religious leader. Who is not only aiding and abetting coercion, but also through spiritual abuse. Like this is what God would want you to do. And I’m your spiritual leader. And you need to give him it whenever he wants it. It’s super traumatic. Did these guys not go to their work, harassment training? Rebecca: While some of them have zero training, Anne: I know. Rebecca: That’s a part of it. Anne: But I’m like, maybe they should have learned about rape before they give women advice. Uneducated Marriage Advice Heidi: Well, I went through a similar situation, perhaps an issue, but it was three decades ago. When I learned he uses it. And so there weren’t the resources available. And yes, a religious leader told me that I needed to submit. I wanted to leave the marriage, and he wanted me to stay. And the religious leader told me that I needed to stay. And I knew he was wrong. But I did it anyway, for at least a while longer. Anne: Which amounts to spiritual abuse in that it was a way of coercing you to stay in an abusive situation. It’s really sad that that’s happening. And even though yours was three decades ago, it’s happening every day, all day long now. Which I’m still floored about. I’m like, what? Well, and it happened to me. I’ve been divorced for eight years, but I’m still shocked that women are coming to me, and it happened to them literally last week. Rebecca: He is not only in that position, but also a church leader who encourages you to stay in an unsafe situation. The real abuse happens when they use their power to give advice. They know you see them as an authority. They give advice that goes against what you feel God has told you. I think messing with your relationship with God really hurts you. That is the scariest part to me. A lot of times, they don’t know better. They don’t mean to put you in danger, but what they don’t know still hurts women a lot. This is a big problem. Domestic Abuse Education Rebecca: And they are usually the first people women go to. And then when they get that response, it doesn’t feel safe to go to anybody else. Anne: I would not only say it is going against women’s intuition, which is the most important thing, but also against just like literally basic domestic abuse education. And because they don’t have, or maybe they’re abusers themselves. And when I say basic domestic abuse education, I mean, what is psychological abuse? What is emotional abuse? What is spiritual abuse? Many people think they know what that is, because they watched Safe Harbor, the movie with Julianna Hough. And they think they know, Oh, yeah, he looks bad. And that’s what this looks like. I would know that if she walked in and had a black eye, but it’s not just her intuition. It’s also any domestic abuse expert would be like, check, check, check. This is checking all the boxes. It’s scary to me that they’re giving advice to abuse victims when they do not know what they’re looking at. But it’s also not surprising, because hardly anyone does. And so I have a lot of grace for them, because I was also in that boat where I had a master’s degree and was doing my best to be an educated person. I thought I understood abuse, but was in an abusive situation for seven years and did not know. Grace For Ignorance Anne: Until I knew, and then I was like, Oh, okay, now I know more. And so that having grace for us not being educated about it and for other people not being educated about it is really hard. When it’s not like a class everybody takes in high school or something. Thank you for sharing that information about the healing stage. I’ve also seen that with the women who come to BTR. Okay. Let’s talk about the fifth stage now. Transformation Stage Heidi: The fifth stage is transformation, and that’s where the women start to take these ideas. The cognitive reconstruction of their reality and put it into action. They have changed these previously held beliefs, and now they’re going to do something about it. They start to see themselves in a very different way. In fact, one of the women I loved most said, after the betrayal, the words she said to herself were, I can think of nothing that’s the same. Because her reality has shifted so much. But after moving into this transformation stage, she said, I told myself those same words, nothing is the same. At first, those words felt impossible to fix, like everything was broken and would never heal. Now, she says, everything has changed. She talks about her identity and her love for herself. The women feel like they can be real, honest, and open in their relationships, especially with the friends they made in support groups. They spoke about healthy intimacy and how closely intertwined it can be with spirituality. The women talked about that. I want to learn about healthy relationshihps. It feels more intimate and spiritual now. Most women stayed in their religion, but they questioned and changed beliefs that didn’t help them during the crisis. This made them feel more vulnerable. Reconstructing Beliefs Heidi: At this point, they built a simpler belief system with religion as the base. Their relationship with God became the focus. Instead of making religious rituals and beliefs the center, they focused on their connection with God. We call this their spirituality, and it all came from their relationship with God.. They were able to develop a deeper, more personal relationship with God. Or attachment to God, because they found God much more trustworthy than their husband was. A few of the women from different religions actually, and it was I think three or four women talked about longing for a female deity that had an equal weight to a male God. Not that replaced a male God, but that had an equal weight. That would elevate women to an equal status with men and could work together. And they loved that vision of that might model for their own current or future relationships. There were a few women who no longer felt they could worship in the same way. While most stayed in their religion, we had a few who completely left religion. There were some who changed locations and yet still maintained that spiritual aspect of religion that they’d gained belief in a higher power, belief in prayer, they started taking ownership of their preferences and behaviors. One of my favorite interviews had a Native American woman who stayed with a high ranking military officer for years. Because she would have been left with nothing financially. During this period, she just decided I don’t care. Experiential Learning When You’re Trying To Figure It Out Heidi: She moved back onto the reservation into her grandfather’s abandoned home. That had been abandoned for decades. And she, all by herself, with a Home Depot credit card, rebuilt that entire home. It had no running water, no electricity, and no windows. She felt cold and had hardly any money. But she built herself up. She loved that home and made it a safe place. She felt confident. And they became awakened to a more complete sense of themselves. They were able to, because they did that, reach new levels of intimacy, because they did that. To have true intimacy, we must know ourselves. They began to see life and God in a whole new way. They used their voices and their choices in powerful ways. The five stages show this model clearly. These stages match many human development stages in books. Experiential learning teaches us lessons we always remember. And in those advanced levels of experiential learning, we truly learn to help others and fill love at deeper levels. Anne: I love that I’ve seen that just anecdotally through my experience. But it’s awesome to know how hopeful the situation is, because it feels so dark and so awful when you’re going through it. I remember thinking when people say like, it’ll get better or something like that. Power Of Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Anne: I was so mad. I thought, you don’t know, you don’t know how bad it is. And people might say things like there’s a light at the end of the tunnel, something like that. I just was so angry about it. And now I find myself saying that same thing to others. And so I want to say, I know that it doesn’t feel good to have someone say, “You’re brave and you’re strong” and that you will come out of this, this amazing brave woman. It feels terrible, but there is so much hope. And I want them to feel that like deep, deep down inside. And if they can’t feel it, like I couldn’t, just maybe hold on to our words or maybe don’t be really mad like I was. Because I was just ticked all the time for a while and that’s okay too. Heidi: Groups help women see others going through the same thing. They can look at someone further along and think, “In six months or a year, I can be where she is.” Groups give women hope. Women see that if they stick with it and learn about boundaries, things will get better. They watch others in their group improve and feel encouraged. Rebecca: And I think another thing about groups that can be helpful is to see that women end up at all sorts of positions. It helps women see women end up in various places, and they feel happy and feel like they’re a better version of themselves. Rebuilding For The Future Rebecca: Healing can happen in many ways. And really, however, this plays out for any individual woman she’s going to have to be thoughtful and honest with herself. Am I safe here? I think it can be hard for women to trust they would be better off single. For some women, it’s hard to believe they can rebuild their lives, like fixing up a house, and take care of themselves to be happy again. It’s hard to imagine that in the middle of a big loss. This kind of loss isn’t just about losing someone you loved and spent years with. It’s also about losing the dream you worked on building together. And so to know that that isn’t possible anymore is heartbreaking. And there’s a lot to be mad about. Anne: Yeah, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, it’s just safety first in whatever way works for you. I don’t know what that’s going to look like for you. And I don’t know what the safest course of action is. But all I care about is your safety. So how do we assess our emotional, psychological, and intimate safety? How do we learn to set boundaries. Learning about safety and making safety the priority, I think, is always to use the word safety again, a safe bet. Because you never know what’s going to happen, and it leaves the door open for any opportunity or situation safe. Emotional Safety When He Won’t Stop Using His Phone Constantly Anne: My concern is that women often think they’re safe when they don’t understand safety, and haven’t been educated about it much. And so, my concern is to ensure they have the education they need. Rebecca: Safety builds the foundation for any intimate relationship. Without safety, manipulation can happen because vulnerability increases. Make sure safety comes first to prevent manipulation and abuse. Starting with safety creates a solid beginning for any relationship. Don’t skip that step. Anne: No, many people are like, Oh, Betrayal Trauma Recovery, they set the bar so high. And I’m like, it’s the lowest possible rung. You can’t set it lower. We’ve literally set it at the lowest possible place. I’m not saying he has to be a model, or he has to have an incredible job, or anything like that. No, no, no. I’m just saying he needs to be emotionally and psychologically, financially and spiritually safe. That’s the lowest bar. Heidi: That’s why identity was such an important part of this as they go through this experience. They learn about themselves, most of all, and how to navigate. Things in a way that keeps them safe and true to their identity. Important Work To Do Anne: I’m so grateful that people are starting to do research like this. It’s awesome. Hopefully, people will continue to do more. So thank you so much for your work. It means a lot to all the women in the world. So thank you. Heidi: Thank you so much for letting us come and share with you. We love women. We’re champions of women. Anne: I am so grateful for Dr. Hastings and Dr. Lucero Jones for sharing their studies today. So thank you so much. Rebecca: Thank you for having us, Anne. Heidi: And for all the great work that you’re doing.

Published: 26 November 2024

Women who feel, “my husband is taking advantage of me,” may often be confused by the damaging advice they receive when they go for help. And what you know right now may only be the tip of the iceberg. See If Your Husband is Taking Advantage of You: 3 Ways 1. IF HE USES YOUR TRUST TO HIDE WHAT’S REALLY HAPPENING Most women don’t enter marriage looking for problems. They enter it assuming he’s telling the truth, and if something feels off, there must be a harmless reason. So when he’s distant or irritable, you might think he’s stressed or he’s had a bad day. But what if that’s not the reason he’s stressed? Stay with me…You’ll see more about how this plays out in real time. 2. He LIEs TO YOU ABOUT HOW HE SPENDS HIS TIME OR MONEY  If your husband is taking advantage of you in this way, you’re not going to know, but it’s definitely going to feel like he’s taking advantage of you, because things are not adding up. If you need help figuring things out, join our Betrayal Trauma Support Group online. Even if you don’t have all the details, patterns of secrecy + financial behavior + outside relationships are enough. 3. HE’S TRYING TO GET YOU TO DOUBT YOUR OWN INTUITION  If he’s saying things like, you’re overreacting or you’re imagining things, or he’s saying he didn’t say something he definitely said, he’s trying to take advantage of that conversation to manipulate you.  If you relate and think you might be experiencing emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. In this transcript you’ll find the following points: Recognizing When a Husband Is Exploiting Trust If Your Husband Is Good At Hiding Evidence Confronting Him With Evidence of Taking Advantage The Impact on Children of His Exploitation Transcript: MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF ME Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Misha. Welcome, Misha. Misha: Hi. Thanks for having me. I have listened to the podcast. Hearing other people’s story is the reason I wanted to share my story. And be part of this community of very strong women who have experienced a lot of things, similar to what I’ve experienced. We were married six and a half years, when I found out my husband was cheating on me. I was sitting on the couch with my two children, and scrolling through my apps on my phone, and I found four NSA dating apps. NSA is no strings attached. Not just one, but four. And I didn’t know where they came from, because I saw them on my phone, not his. And then I realized that we have a family share plan that shows all the apps within the family share plan. If you toggle at the top, it shows the other devices and they were on his device. That’s what triggered my story, but it is so much more explosive than that. The things that I found out after was horrifying. I knew I needed to start teaching children how to set boundaries. WE WERE THE PERFECT FAMILY Anne: So that was what some women called D-Day. You realized something was amiss. Can we go back a little bit? How did you feel about him and how your relationship was before you found those apps? Misha: We were the perfect family. He was charming, well-liked in our community. He’s high ranking military. We had adopted twins from birth, who were two years old when I found out. It was like Prince Charming, and he was perfect. So I thought, looking back now, there were a lot of signs that it wasn’t. Anne: And you couldn’t have known. I think this is the thing people don’t understand. They might say you didn’t see the red flags, and I don’t think that’s the case. I think you see them, you just interpret them through the lens you have at the time. So if he’s grumpy, for example, you think, oh, he had a bad day. You don’t think he is having an affair. Misha: He showed a lot of signs of stress. But anytime I approached him about it, he was stressed out from work. He felt overwhelmed by work. And he needed space because of the job. It was always, it’s not you or the kids, it’s just me, and it’s just work. It was like my husband was grooming me. So I tried to give him more space and make sure to take care of the house, kids and everything. So he could come home and decompress or whatever he needed. SECRET APPS AND MISSING FUNDS: MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE Misha: He couldn’t talk to me about work. So I asked him if it was really affecting him that much, that he should find someone to talk to, that there are services for military. He decided to talk to the chaplain at one point, and then it was like everything magically was better. He seemed happier and more engaged with the kids and I after that. So I thought we were fine. But that was right before I found the apps. He had downloaded them about the same time he was feeling better. Once I found those apps, it triggered me to look for more. Since he was deployed during that time, I couldn’t even talk to him when I found those apps. Anne: That’s kind of a blessing actually. Misha: It actually was. Anne: Knowing that your husband is taking advantage of you, it was good that he couldn’t manipulate you more and lie to you more. You could just find more information that he couldn’t twist. Misha: Twist and turn and I found a whole nightmare. I went into his bank account and was looking for strange transactions, thinking I would find some dating thing going on, but if they’re NSA apps, they’re probably not that happening. So I searched through the bank statements and started finding thousands of dollars, wired out $31,000, wired out $15,000, wired out $3500 a check for $20,000. Anne: Whoa. FINDING EVIDENCE OF EXTORTION Misha: ATM withdrawals for almost $17,000. It was a lot. I was a stay at home mom and he was providing for us. Some transactions went to a place called digital forensics.com. I didn’t know what that was. So I looked it up and it was a digital forensics company that will basically cover up your digital tracks. I found emails from this digital forensics company. They were just some that were like screenshots of his WhatsApp, which I didn’t know he had WhatsApp. Then I scrolled through those emails and clicked on the attachment for one of them. And a brochure popped up that said sextortion onboarding. Anne: So is he extorted for videos or pictures of him out there doing sexual things? Or is he the one doing the extorting? What were you thinking at the time? Misha: I had to Google it to be sure I was correct, thinking that he did something of a sexual nature that someone was using to blackmail him. And the emails confirmed he is the one extorted. It was a lot of the same questions in my mind. Is it him? Is it somebody else? What’s going on here? But I still don’t have those answers. I don’t know what he did to get himself extorted, obviously. But I do know my husband is taking advantage of it. I CALLED A DIVORCE LAWYER Anne: One of the things I talk about quite a bit is knowing one thing is knowing everything. Knowing that he was extorted for sexual videos floating around there, or an affair or something. That’s all I need to know, because it tells me everything, even though I don’t have all the details or information. Misha: I didn’t wanna know from the start. It was enough to see that he did something of that nature that got him in this position, and I don’t need to know what it is. The amount of money gone, he obviously did something he was guilty of doing. The amount of money he spent to cover it up and get rid of it, whatever it is, was enough. After I found those emails, I immediately called a divorce lawyer. This was in like three days. Anne: Good for you. Misha: Yeah, from the time I found the bank statements to the emails was about three days, and I called the lawyer. Anne: Wow, that is so brave. You were really smart about it. ‘Cause I did this, and so many of us do that. We want to talk to them or try to work it out or something, and it just gets us in deeper, so that’s amazing. Had you guys ever done couple therapy or like pornography, addiction recovery, or had you ever seen anything like that before you found those apps on the phone? MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE AND I CONFRONTED HIM Misha: I had caught him with pornography before, twice in our marriage. At times throughout the relationship he had stuff on his phone that was like pictures of himself being seductive in a mirror or something. I had no idea I was experiencing betrayal trauma in a relationship. Anne: Like thirst traps sort of-ish. Misha: Yes. I confronted him about those, and he was like, I was gonna send you those pictures. I just never got around to it. We just never were that way. He didn’t like me to send seductive pictures of myself to him. There was a time when I took my daughter one morning with me. He was taking our son to a playground, and have a Father’s Sunday. I came back to the house ’cause I forgot something and he hadn’t left yet. As I approached the house, the TV was blaring with cartoons, so I went in the front door and my son is sitting on the floor. He is about 18 months old by himself, with the TV as loud as could be. My husband is nowhere around. So I darted back to our bedroom, where I needed to get the thing I forgot. The door was cracked, and I could see him sitting on the end of the bed doing what you can only imagine. I thought, “my husband is taking advantage of me being gone.” I pushed the door open and confronted him. The door was open so my son could have walked in on him. I said, “Give me your phone.” And he was like, “It’s just porn, it’s just porn.” I was very angry about it. He didn’t really spend much time with the children anyways, and instead of taking his son to the park, he chose to do that instead. HE WAS VERY GOOD AT HIDING EVERYTHING Misha: I would say for the most part, he was very good at hiding everything. He’s military. He has top secret security clearance. And he knows how to hide things. He had a work cell phone that I couldn’t touch. When I searched his emails, nothing from those apps came up. You have to have an email to use those apps. We didn’t live together because of him deploying back and forth. He lived where he was stationed. And I lived back home in the Midwest. He would visit us after deployment, and then go back and forth. Anne: Mm-hmm. Misha: He was visiting us this one time for a short weekend before he was deploying again, and he was behaving very strangely. He looked disheveled, almost like a homeless person. It was very eerie when he was home, even my son was uncomfortable with him in the home. There was one night I was trying to put him to bed, and he was just aggressively not going to sleep, and he wouldn’t go to sleep till almost three o’clock in the morning. I never had those issues getting him to sleep. And so the next night after that, I asked my husband to leave and go to the gas station while I put them to bed. It took me about 15 minutes to get him sleep. I discovered later that my husband is taking advantage of that timeframe when he was there he was withdrawing from the ATM, which was two minutes from my house. HE GAVE MONEY TO THE EXTORTIONER Misha: It was like $200 transactions for those three days. Whatever the max withdrawal, you can withdraw for your limit. I totaled nearly $7,000 cash, and he drove to visit us. He had to hide the cash in my house, and then drove halfway across the country with it to give it to whoever was extorting him. I asked him later. Did you give cash to someone? And he said yes. It was confusing. Because after I filed for divorce, I talked to my mother about what happened. She knew a military veteran. She told him a little bit about what was going on. He told her that if I didn’t report him to the military, I would be found complicit and that they could take my children from me. So I called the commander’s wife and asked her to tell me who to call for this. And she was like, “Your husband? No, it has to be somebody else. Maybe it was one of his guys. He was helping with an extortion case. There’s no way it’s your husband. He loves you. He talks about you all the time. And the kids, there’s no way.” And I said, “It is him.” Anne: He couldn’t very well show his true self to his commander and wife. The person they would trust and think is a good guy would be a family man. So that’s the face he would show them. Your husband is taking advantage of you and them. MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF HIS POSITION AND MILITARY TRAINING Misha: Exactly. He made a good show for sure. She referred me to the command, and then the command referred me to NCIS. I gave NCIS all the information I had. And I said, I just wanna know that my kids and I are safe. At the end of his digital forensics investigation into his extortion, there was an encrypted file saying your case has been closed. Obviously, I couldn’t see what was in the encrypted file. But I sent that to NCIS. They basically told me we were safe, and there was no other information they could give me. And that it was just an online scam. But I don’t see giving someone cash for an online scam. Anne: Yeah, if it was a scam, he wouldn’t have been so scared by it. Misha: Yeah, they basically were like, “Yep, this happens all the time.” Anne: Really. Misha: I’m like, “That’s horrible to hear, and why are you allowing it?” Anne: And also, What? Especially the military, you would think they would be worried about officers being extorted. Maybe by people from other countries. Misha: Exactly. Anne: It’s really alarming that your husband is taking advantage of his position. Misha: He gave trainings himself on this, how not to mess around to get extorted and blackmailed. Like my husband gave the trainings to his sailors on this, and this happens all the time. THEY SAID HE WAS THE VICTIM Anne: Well, and then the military doesn’t think, wait a minute, he for sure knows we’ve gotta do something about this guy. He is probably pretty dangerous. They just are like, eh, whatever, wow. Misha: No, they said, “He is the victim.” Anne: Wow! Okay. Misha: He’s the victim, and I was like, oh, I think he is actually the perpetrator of his own extortion. I don’t think he’s a victim of extortion. If he did something someone can use to extort him, that’s not a victim. Especially if it was a sexual nature outside your marriage. Anne: There are all kinds of victims in this story. Number one, you and your children, but then also perhaps the women your husband is taking advantage of, the women he’s paying money to exploit, that he’s coercing them with cash. We can imagine all the other women who maybe he’s lying to them. Misha: We don’t have to imagine it. I found it all. We had the same phone bill for six and a half years. I went back through the phone bills. This was going on way before we had children. It was going on our entire relationship. He was regularly in contact with sex workers. I went through phone number after phone number. He had hundreds and hundreds of text messages from all kinds of different numbers throughout the phone bill, and they led to pornography sites and escort sites. AUTHORITIES WOULDN’T DO ANYTHING UNLESS HE WAS VIOLENT Anne: Did you give the military that as well? And not that you should have, I’m just curious. Misha: They didn’t care. I reported him for potential prostitution. I did an entire report on all of it. Anne: They didn’t care that your husband is taking advantage of you and possibly endangering you and your children? Misha: They wouldn’t do anything unless he was violent towards me. Anne: Oh, that’s the insane thing about our current culture, I guess. He is, by all accounts, an abusive man on so many levels. Breaking the law because it’s illegal to coerce women with money. It’s often literal sex trafficking. Because the definition of sex trafficking is the exchange of money for it essentially. This is serious stuff. It’s criminal, but even if it wasn’t criminal, it’s abusive. But they’re like, it’s no big deal. If the people tasked with protecting us don’t know what abuse is, that’s a problem. Misha: Absolutely. I mean, the extent of information I found is just appalling. It makes him a very deviant person in my mind. After I was in contact with the NCIS investigators and everything, and they were like, “Yeah, thanks. We don’t care.” They brought him home within 24 hours of that phone call. Anne: So then you’re not protected. That was scary too. Misha: I said, can you not bring him home? They said, no, you guys need to talk. Anne: What? MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE AND HE CLAIMS ADDICTION Misha: I don’t wanna talk to him. Yet they made me talk to him. Anne: But that only benefits him and not you. Misha: Yeah, they said he needs to explain himself to me. No, I don’t need an explanation. He lied to me more. He claims sex addiction. Immediately after he came home. He said, “Something happened really bad, I’ve reported myself.” He didn’t know that I was the one who reported him. Anne: Oh. Misha: I said, “No, you are home because I reported you.” And he goes, “What? What do you mean you reported me?” “I reported you, that is why they took you off the ship.” And I said, “So you can stop lying now. I know everything.” And then he just continued to lie. Anne: Mm-hmm. Misha: I know my husband is taking advantage of sex workers. He said he never had sex with any other women, so he didn’t technically cheat. Anne: But we know that’s not true. Misha: He did confirm paying for erotic massage. He said, “No sex or masturbation during the massage.” Anne: Didn’t you witness him doing that, to pornography? Misha: Yeah. Anne: Yeah, he’s just lying. Wow, okay. HE DIDN’T WANT TO GET A DIVORCE Misha: Well, this is the thing I said, “Where did you find an erotic massage?” Like, I wouldn’t even know where to find that. And he’s like, “Oh, it was an ad on a pornography site.” Anne: Also, what is the point of an erotic massage? If you don’t have sex? Just get a regular massage. Misha: Yeah. I was like, “You responded to an ad on a pornography site.” I said, “Where was it located?” And he said, “Someone’s private apartment.” Like, what are you doing? Going to a strange person’s apartment for that? And he did it more than once. Anne: Well, and a lot of these places will video without the person’s consent, and then upload it onto websites themselves. So then they have evidence of him, and that can be downloaded and uploaded repeatedly. Victims who are coerced or trafficked can never get the evidence of their sexual assault off the internet. In his case, he participated in it. That will be uploaded and downloaded. He already knew that, if that’s the class he taught in the military. Misha: Yeah, he knows, he doesn’t care. Anne: Did he react to you filing for divorce? Misha: He didn’t wanna get divorced, just stay separated. And I was like, absolutely not. I do not wanna be tied to you in any way. My husband is taking advantage of the courts. It took almost two years to get the divorce over with. I was trying to take the kids from him. Anne: He couldn’t take care of them ’cause he was always deployed, like that’s crazy. HE GOT A PROMOTION A MONTH AFTER Misha: He even told me, “I’ll give you sole custody,” at one point. And I’m like, “Okay, thanks. Sign the papers.” I mean there were so many layers of the trauma process. He wouldn’t do it. He told me he had to give the extorters the money, because they threatened his wife and kids. I wouldn’t let him see the kids until he had proof of therapy of some kind. The military didn’t do anything. There was no punishment that I know of. He actually got a promotion to commander a month after this. I’m like my husband is taking advantage of me and our kids and they don’t care. Anne: That happened with my ex too, like not with his job, but with our church. Basically, I let them know, and then, like two weeks later, he had a promotion. I was like, what? Misha: Doesn’t make sense. So he’s like, “I’m not dating anyone. I’m not doing any of that anymore. I’m recovered, I’m in SA I went to therapy.” And my lawyers and I agreed he could have supervised visits with the children, and I had to supervise it. Because he wouldn’t pay for social worker, of course, he wanted to make me watch him play with our children. it was very uncomfortable to supervise those visits. One of the worst was Christmas. He came in town and we decided to do Christmas at our house. His parents were gonna come over, we were gonna cook a small dinner and try to have a good holiday for the kids. He was cooking in the kitchen, putting together green bean casserole, and the kids and I were in the living room. He gets done with that and comes in the living room. And I got up and left and went in the kitchen. MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF AND ENDANGERING OUR CHILDREN Misha: Because I couldn’t tolerate being in the same room as him. And I noticed that he left his phone on the counter open and unlocked, which had never happened before. His phone was always face down and locked, and not out of his sight. And again, it’s hundreds of text messages, FaceTimes from other women, and their names are like Angelica Rose, Ruby Bee. Names that sound like an alias. So I quickly scrolled through a few of them. There were three that I remember specifically. They were inappropriate adult conversations, but among those feeds, I found pictures of my children. Anne: It’s inappropriate to send people involved in trafficking pictures of children. Misha: Yes, and he also said their names. “That he couldn’t wait to go back to their location and see them for Christmas.” After he was blackmailed, extorted. He continues to communicate with these people. And he’s also sending pictures of my children, their location, and where he will be. And when I took the phone, I shoved it in his face, and I said, “Get out of my house.” Anne: Yeah, your husband is taking advantage of your children, too. Misha: And he’s like, “We’re not together anymore. I can date whoever I want.” I said, “I don’t give a, who you date, do not ever send pictures of my children to anyone ever again.” And his face dropped, and he put his head down, and he walked out the house. And I will never forgive this man for endangering my children. Anne: Yeah. I WAS EVEN MORE WORRIED FOR MY CHILDREN Misha: And I reported it to the Navy, and they said, “As long as those pictures weren’t inappropriate, there’s nothing we’ll do.” Anne: Well, at the very least, not have custody. Misha: Nope. The lawyer said that there’s nothing. Anne: It doesn’t make a difference. Misha: It doesn’t matter. Anne: Why does everyone talk about how they hate child abuse, but they won’t stop abusers? But this guy, even though there’s all this evidence of emotional and psychological abuse, abuse of other human beings, and I’m talking about the women he’s exploiting by coercing them with cash, that’s who does the abusing. This is who they are. And did he physically sexually abuse your kids? Who knows? Maybe you know, but that’s the type of person who would, they’re not parent material. Misha: Exactly what I was terrified of, because they’re adopted. And I know that people who do that don’t even care if they’re biologically related. So I was even more worried for my children. I lived near his family, and I had to get away from there before the divorce was over. He gets one week and a month and some holidays, and then half the summer. Anne: I have found the Living Free Workshop helps with everything. The message strategies you’ll see when you take it. If they have nothing to get from you and your kids, the current working theory is they just leave you alone forever, not taking the one weekend a month, or not taking the summer. THERE IS SO MUCH MORE GOING ON BESIDES WHAT I KNOW Anne: If there’s a woman out there listening who is wondering, is this really serious? Is this podcast actually for me? I mean, he’s only looked at pornography a few times. Or he only had that one affair or something like that. What would you share with her? Misha: When all this happened, the only person I really speak to is my sister. She called me immediately, and said, “I’m so sorry.” And over those next two or three days, as I found things, I shared them with her. And she told her husband what happened, and he told her, “She has to go, it doesn’t matter how small it is, most of the time it is just the tip of the iceberg. And there is so much more there that you may never even know and don’t wanna know.” He was like, ” The best way to leave a narcissist husband is right away.” For me, I was ready to leave the moment I found the apps, but you don’t have to stay because you need more information or evidence. You just can leave because you want to. Anne: Many women, and I did this, so this makes sense. I thought that when I had the information that would help him change, so in my case, I knew something was wrong. And when he got arrested for spraining my fingers, I thought, now he’ll know. Proof doesn’t do anything to them. So you taking this to him, and he did say, oh, I’ll get addiction therapy, but that’s not how it would’ve turned out. He would’ve just lied to you better. So even thinking that maybe somehow having the proof will help them make a change is also such a trap. LYING IS THE PROBLEM WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE Anne: I’m so grateful that your sister and brother-in-law helped you see through that. That’s great that you had such good support. Misha: I am the kind of person that I have to know. So while he’s telling me he’s not doing those things anymore, I’m continuing to dig. Finding things was just more confirmation that he was never going to stop lying, and that I should not allow him to convince me to even contemplate getting back together, stay separated, and I still catch him lying about things. Anne: I mean, why do they want to be married when they don’t want to be married? Misha: Oh, that was my thing. Anne: What do they think marriage is? Misha: If this is what you wanna do with your life, why would you have a wife and children, just be single? And I hate that you wanna participate in, you know, sex trafficking, but if you wanna be single and go no strings attached with everyone else, that’s your choice. But it wasn’t mine, and I didn’t get a choice. And now I’m like, “Am I over my ex the best way to know?” Well, I can look back at all the facts. Anne: Exactly. Why not just be like, this is who I am, this is what I wanna do. Do you wanna be married to me under these circumstances? This is the whole point. If they weren’t abusive, they would say, oh no, I really like paying women for sex. I’m gonna keep doing it. And maybe no one would arrest them. But at least we could be like, oh, I don’t wanna be married to a man who does that. So goodbye. I DIDN’T HAVE FREEDOM OF CHOICE Anne: The lying is the real problem. While I don’t support pornography or any abuse of women, whether through coercion or exploitation, at least then you’d clearly see that your husband taking advantage goes beyond what you may have realized. Misha: Exactly. It would give me freedom of choice. But I didn’t have that. I still don’t have it, ’cause he’s still lying. I just wish he didn’t have custody of my children. Anne: Yeah, hopefully I can check back in with you after you’ve learned the Living Free strategies and see how things are going in six months to a year from now, and see if it was helpful to you. Thank you so much for sharing today. I am so sorry you’re going through this. Your story will help women. I’m so grateful that you were willing to share. Misha: Thank you for having me on.

Transcribed - Published: 25 November 2024