I'm John Bachelor. This is the new John Bachelor show, represented by CBS News Radio, and I'm very pleased to continue my conversation with Josh Roggan of the Washington Post, whose new book is Chaos Under Heaven, Trump, She, and the Battle for the 21st Century.

Josh helps us identify the whole of society approach that the People's Republic of China

was taking to influence, that's a generous diplomatic

word, decisions made by politicians and voters in the United States towards the People's

Republic, which is declared very clearly to the Obama

administration, to the Trump administration, and will continue to declare

into the future our integrity, territorial integrity, our our sovereignty will not be challenged.

However, they come here to undermine our understanding of our sovereignty, of our integrity.

All right, fine.

How do they do that?

Josh, first, before we go to Wall Street,

what is the Thousand Talent Plan?

What was it?

Well, the Thousand Talent Program is just one, the largest one, but only one of over 200 talent recruitment programs

of the Chinese Communist Party runs to attract foreign scientists, academics, and researchers

to contribute to their system.

Now, there's a part of that that's overt and public, but there's a big part of it that's covert

and secret, and that's the part that the US government has started to crack down on mostly in 2018 and

2019 and still continues to this day.

And basically what we kept, what the US government kept finding was that, you know know American researchers had been paid

enormous sums of money to secretly take non-public research from their

American institutions and handed over to their Chinese counterparts.

...