You are listening to the War on the Rocks podcast on strategy defense and foreign affairs. My name is Ryan Evans

And I'm sitting here again with Michael Kaufman to talk about the war in Ukraine. Mike, thanks for coming back on the show

Yeah, always glad to be back. You know the big topic de jure de month is really the battle for

bachmoot how it's going what it reveals about both sides and whether it's been wise for Ukraine to expend

so much blood and treasure and munitions on this particular piece of the war.

So could you just start by updating us on what's happening on the battlefield in and around Bachvoot?

Sure, although I will caveat what I'm going to say by adding that the situation around

Bachmuth is a bit murky, especially since Ukraine has introduced a media blackout in general

near the front line, especially at Bachmood and also that I think there's a bit too

much focus on the Bell of Buckmood. There are also other bells taking place but we should

start off with it because it's being I think to some extent it's being seen by folks as a litmus test and I don't think it should be because I've consistently

held to the position I don't think bachmuth is you know of itself all that strategic beyond being the focal point of a

contest of wills. So over the past month what's happening in Buckmuth is that

Russian forces had been have been trying to encircle buckmoot in the pincer.

Ukrainian forces seem to have conducted a counterattack or

stabilize that part of the line the line that was

strengthening the main supply route. Where is this geographically? So geographically

this is just west out of Buckmoot this is by Cromwell and the main road that leads out of the city.

Instead, Wagner backed by the Russian Airborne has been pushing northwest of Bachmote.

In fact, they're quite past Bachmote if you look at the relative

boundaries of territorial control and they focus on taking the city. And they've been suddenly

gaining territory both in the north and east and south of the city.

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