Ep 389 Blind Spots and Second Chances with Matthew Fray and Jen

Marriage Therapy Radio

MTR

Self-improvement, Society & Culture, Therapy, Health & Fitness, Marriage, Relationships, Mental Health, Education

4.6 • 690 Ratings

🗓️ 2 September 2025

⏱️ 40 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

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Summary

Zach sits down with writer and relationship coach Matthew Fray https://matthewfray.com/, author of "This Is How Your Marriage Ends", and his partner, Jen. Together, they share the story of how their friendship over bourbon turned into a deeper relationship, shaped by lessons learned from past marriages and the blind spots that can quietly erode trust.

Matt opens up about how regret from his first marriage fuels his vigilance against repeating old patterns, while Jen explains why she trusted him enough to take a second chance on love. Their candid reflections on ADHD, planning differences, and emotional expression highlight how self-awareness, humility, and accountability create space for a resilient partnership.

Zach guides the conversation toward practical insights—why blind spots matter, how humility differs from humiliation, and how relational “paper cuts” can accumulate if couples ignore them. The episode offers a powerful reminder that love after divorce isn’t just possible—it can be stronger when both partners commit to learning and growth.

Key Takeaways

Blind spots are the silent killers – Most people aren’t malicious in relationships, but their unexamined habits can unintentionally harm trust.
Humility protects intimacy – Owning your limitations (like ADHD or defensiveness) allows space for growth without shame.
Grace and patience matter – Jen emphasizes that knowing Matt’s challenges means choosing him with them, not in spite of them.
Reciprocity in needs – Emotional connection for her and physical intimacy for him form a circle of mutual investment.
Coldness vs. stoicism – Jen reflects on how upbringing shaped her emotional availability, and how she works on showing warmth more consistently.
Shared values anchor them – A “writer’s brain,” moral compass, and mutual respect form the foundation for long-term confidence in the relationship.

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Transcript

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0:00.0	Hey, everybody. Welcome. And thank you for listening to this episode of Marriage Therapy Radio. My name is Zach Brittle. And when I say thank you, I mean it, especially this week. I want to say thank you to Matthew Frey and his partner, Jen, who stepped in at the last minute to rescue me from not having a guest to interview. I've been wanting to talk to Matthew anyway.
0:22.6	I really think he's getting it right.
0:23.6	He wrote a book you might remember called This Is How Your Marriage Ends.
0:26.6	He's got another book that he's thinking about right now that I'm excited to learn more about and support.
0:31.6	But for this week, he just jumped on last minute to talk to me about his relationship.
0:36.6	Jen was a good support too. I'm really grateful that they made some time to talk to me about his relationship. Jen was a good support too.
0:38.7	I'm really grateful that they made some time to talk to me.
0:42.3	You know, listen, none of us are very good at the internet or at audiovisual stuff.
0:45.8	So the sound in this episode might not be the best.
0:49.0	My internet was slow.
0:50.3	Their microphone was weird.
0:52.2	But I think there's a lot of good content particularly around the
0:55.3	idea of blind spots it's not it's something i've heard matthew talk about before um but i got a
1:01.5	little bit more of an insight here um and it'll be interesting for you to listen to them talk about it
1:06.6	and even to ponder blind spots in your own relationship so thank you for. Thank you for all of you who responded to last week's individual episode, especially my buddy Dan. I'm always encouraged by the notes that you send me. So thank you for that. And for those of you who became new Patreon members, welcome. We've got some good content before you behind the scenes. And I even got a couple people who were excited about my blog
1:27.7	stuff I write which is very cool let's see while I'm thanking people I'll thank paired which is the
1:33.0	sponsor of this week's episode if you have not started using paired as a way to connect with your
1:38.1	partner please consider doing that it's a great way to support marriage therapy radio go to pared
1:42.9	dot com slash mDR and I think that's it for now.
1:46.9	I've got a lot of interviews lined up, but this one also is very fun. Thanks again to Matt and Jen for
1:50.8	stepping in the last minute. This is a very cool conversation. Stick around. You're rescuing me
1:56.4	because I was stuck. I had a interview scheduled and they were like, I have a family emergency.
	...

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