This is CBS Eye on the World.

Here's John Batchler.

NATO, the meeting in July is a major importance for Ukraine, for the Ukraine conflict, because

NATO is looking at suggestions of how to sustain Ukrainian defense in the long road ahead.

Without having Ukraine join NATO either now or imminently, since that would cause the

complication of Article 5, the collective defense, I welcome Anatolyevna of the Quincy Institute

for Responsible Statecraft, writing most recently about the NATO challenge and the sometimes

paradoxical positions that members of NATO are obliged to take in a war in which NATO

equipment is flowing freely.

But as of yet, NATO ground troops, NATO air, NATO navy is not involved.

Anatolyevna, very good evening to you, this quandary about how do you become NATO without

becoming NATO.

Do you expect that this case in July will move the story in some fashion?

Either Ukraine will never be part of NATO or Ukraine is destined to have a speeded up joining

of NATO, is there a way of resolving this or are we just going to live with the paradox?

Good evening to you.

Hello John.

I think we're probably doomed to live with the paradox, because on the one hand you have

this degree of real commitment on the part of NATO members to Ukraine, this desire to

help and defend Ukraine, but you have an equally strong desire, well or even stronger in

many ways, stressed by the vast majority of NATO governments, including that of the

United States, that under no circumstances should NATO troops be sent to fight Russia,

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