Gangland Wire

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with author Kevin E. Meredith to examine a little-known but highly influential force in Chicago’s Prohibition-era crime wars—the Secret Six. Click here for a link to get the book The Secret Six: The Rise and Fall of Chicago's greatest Vigilantes Meredith, a former newspaper reporter turned historian, explains how he uncovered the story while researching another project. What he found was a group unlike any other: wealthy businessmen who stepped outside traditional law enforcement to combat the chaos of organized crime and corruption gripping Chicago in the early 1930s. The Rise of the Secret Six The conversation begins with the conditions that gave rise to the Secret Six—widespread corruption, violent labor disputes, and a city dominated by gangland power structures. A key turning point was the murder of construction supervisor Philip Meeker, which galvanized prominent business leaders into action. Rather than working quietly, the Secret Six operated in full public view, using media attention as a weapon. They were not truly “secret,” nor limited to six members, but their branding captured public imagination during a time of fear and instability. Vigilantes with Resources: Meredith details the group’s unconventional tactics: running a covert jail inside the St. Clair Hotel; financing independent investigations; using early lie-detection technology; coordinating with local law enforcement. Their financial power allowed them to function almost like a parallel police force, blurring the line between legal authority and private enforcement. High-Profile Cases and Mob Pressure The Secret Six became entangled in some of the most notorious events of the era, including fallout from the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. Their aggressive tactics earned both praise and criticism. One of the most striking episodes discussed is their involvement in an extortion case tied to socialite Marian Wright. Their heavy-handed investigative style brought results—but also legal and ethical scrutiny. Their existence also intersected with figures like Al Capone, who recognized the group as a legitimate threat to organized crime operations. The Fall and Legacy Operating from roughly 1930 to 1933, the Secret Six ultimately collapsed under mounting criticism and suspicion. Deals that appeared questionable—such as the recovery of stolen bonds—raised doubts about their methods and motives. Despite their short lifespan, they had a significant impact. Meredith emphasizes how their story reflects enduring tensions between public safety and civil liberties—questions that remain relevant today. Final Takeaway This episode explores a unique chapter in American crime history where private citizens took the fight to organized crime, raising complex questions about justice, power, and accountability. Get this great book The Rise and Fall of Chicago's Greatest Vigilantes Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 20 July 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins welcomes author Ray Franze to discuss his historical fiction novel The Heights, a story inspired by the real-life mob figures who controlled Chicago Heights and Northwest Indiana for much of the twentieth century. Drawing on FBI files, family stories, and historical research, Franze explores the rise of Frank LaPorte and the Chicago Heights crew, one of the most influential factions associated with the Chicago Outfit. The conversation begins with the famous 1928 photograph showing Al Capone and several future participants in the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. Franze explains the long-standing belief that members of the Chicago Heights crew may have been involved in planning the infamous gangland murder and discusses the crew's close relationship with Capone and his associates. Gary and Ray examine the unique position of Chicago Heights, located south of Chicago near the Indiana border, and how the area developed its own powerful criminal organization before eventually becoming part of the Chicago Outfit. They discuss the role of the Union Siciliana, the Beer Wars of Prohibition, and the alliance between Capone and local leaders such as Dominic Roberto, Jimmy Emery, and Frank LaPorte. The discussion also covers the expansion of organized crime into Northwest Indiana, Calumet City, and Joliet. Ray explains how gambling, vice, and bootlegging operations flourished in these territories and how Chicago Heights became a major power center within the Outfit structure. The conversation explores Frank LaPorte's leadership style and his remarkable ability to avoid publicity and law enforcement attention. Unlike many notorious gangsters, LaPorte remained largely unknown to the public while building a powerful organization through trusted family members, loyal associates, and strategic insulation from criminal activity. Gary and Ray also discuss the Outfit's transition into seemingly legitimate businesses, including jukeboxes, vending machines, and cigarette distribution, as federal investigators increased pressure on traditional gambling operations. The evolution of mob-controlled businesses reflects the Outfit's efforts to adapt to changing law enforcement tactics. Click here to get Ray's book, The Heights. Another fascinating topic is the legendary Villa Venice nightclub, opened by Sam Giancana with appearances by Frank Sinatra and the Rat Pack. Ray shares family memories of the grand opening and explains how these firsthand accounts became one of the most authentic scenes in his novel. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 13 July 2026

Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins welcomes back organized crime historian and author John Binder for an in-depth discussion about his new book, The Chicago Outfit During the 1960s. Together, they explore one of the most important yet often overlooked decades in the history of the Chicago mob. The conversation examines how the Chicago Outfit evolved during the 1960s under powerful figures like Sam Giancana and Anthony Accardo. John Binder explains how the Outfit expanded beyond traditional rackets into massive gambling operations, Las Vegas casinos, labor racketeering, prostitution, truck hijacking, and narcotics trafficking. Gary and John discuss the transition from the old Prohibition-era gangsters to a new generation of mobsters emerging from the infamous 42 Gang. The episode details how Giancana cultivated loyal associates, enforced discipline through violence, and helped reshape the Outfit’s power structure during a turbulent period marked by gangland murders and internal rivalries. The discussion also explores the Outfit’s extensive network of political corruption in Chicago. Binder explains how mob-controlled wards, corrupt politicians, and labor influence allowed organized crime to manipulate elections and maintain enormous influence over city government and law enforcement. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 6 July 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with organized crime historian and author John Binder to explore the violent and chaotic world of Prohibition-era Chicago. Drawing on his acclaimed book Al Capone's Beer Wars, Binder traces the explosive rise of organized crime in the 1920s and how bootlegging transformed local street gangs into powerful criminal empires. The discussion examines how Prohibition reshaped America’s underworld, creating unprecedented opportunities for ambitious gangsters like Al Capone. Gary and John trace the roots of Chicago’s infamous gang wars, focusing on the bitter conflict between Capone’s organization and the North Side Gang. Central to the story is the assassination of Dion O'Banion, a murder that ignited a bloody cycle of revenge killings and permanently altered the balance of power in Chicago’s criminal landscape. The episode dives into the roles played by immigrant communities, particularly Italian and Jewish gangs, who entered the bootlegging business during a period when economic opportunities were limited. Gary and John discuss how organized crime flourished in poorly policed neighborhoods, where gangs established territorial control and built sophisticated alcohol distribution networks spanning multiple states. Listeners also hear detailed stories about notorious gangland figures including Machine Gun Jack McGurn and the fearsome Frank McErlane, whose violent reputation became legendary even within criminal circles. The conversation reveals the ruthless tactics these men employed as rival factions fought for dominance in the lucrative bootlegging trade. The episode also explores the blurred line between organized crime and legitimate business during Prohibition, showing how gangsters used political influence, territorial control, and business alliances to expand their operations. Gary and John discuss the strategic importance of places like Cicero, which became critical strongholds for Capone’s growing empire. John Binder also discusses his Chicago Prohibition Gangland Tour, which allows participants to visit the streets, neighborhoods, and historic locations where these infamous events unfolded. The tour provides a rare opportunity to experience the physical landscape of Chicago’s mob history while learning about the real people behind the myths. This episode offers a compelling look into the rise of organized crime during Prohibition, separating fact from fiction while uncovering the brutal realities that created some of America’s most notorious gangsters. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 29 June 2026

Gary Jenkins celebrates the Netherlands, who are in Kansas City for the World Cup. He has a discussion with a Dutch organized crime researcher, David Amoroso, and they trace how the American Mafia expanded its gambling empire after losing Cuba. The episode explores how Meyer Lansky's vision of luxury casinos evolved into an international operation spanning the Bahamas, London, and Amsterdam.   David explains how the Genovese crime family, under Meyer Lansky, relied on the Cellini brothers from Steubenville, Ohio to establish professional casino operations throughout Europe. The discussion examines the logistics of exporting experienced casino managers, dealers, and security personnel while navigating cultural differences and working alongside local criminal organizations.   The conversation also explores the unique gambling laws across Europe, where many governments controlled legal casinos while organized crime filled the demand through illegal gambling operations. Gary and David compare these European developments with the early growth of casino gambling in Las Vegas and the influence of American mob figures.   The discussion shifts to the modern era, where organized crime has increasingly focused on online gambling, sports betting, and international drug trafficking. David describes how ports such as Rotterdam and Antwerp became major hubs for global narcotics smuggling and explains why European criminal organizations have embraced these lucrative markets.   Another major topic is the growing threat of match-fixing in international sports. The hosts discuss how Italian Mafia groups, Chinese gambling syndicates, and other criminal organizations manipulate soccer, tennis, and other sporting events through bribery and coercion. They explain how athletes can become trapped through seemingly minor requests that eventually lead to long-term criminal control.   Gary and David conclude by examining the challenges European law enforcement faces when investigating cross-border organized crime, comparing the fragmented legal systems in Europe with coordinated enforcement efforts in the United States. The episode provides an insightful look at how organized crime has adapted from traditional casinos to today's global gambling and sports betting networks. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 25 June 2026

If you want to listen on the website click the below link. I’m trying something different. Let me know at ganglandwire.com if this is an inconvenience and you want to listen on the website player.   Click here to listen to today’s podcast “Inside the Violent World of Joey Gallo.” In this replay, as a tribute to Camillius “Cam” Robinson, Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins, and co-host Cam dive deep into the wild life and violent death of one of the Mafia’s most unpredictable figures—Crazy Joey Gallo. From Brooklyn’s Red Hook streets to the bloody wars of the Colombo crime family, Joey Gallo built a reputation as a fearless outlaw who challenged Mafia bosses, embraced celebrity culture, and became a folk hero to outsiders and artists alike. Gary and Cam explore Gallo’s transformation from street gangster to media sensation, his fascination with philosophy and existentialism, and his notorious appearances before the McClellan Committee wearing dark sunglasses and mocking authority. The episode examines the Gallo crew’s role in the assassination of Mafia boss Albert Anastasia inside the Park Sheraton barber shop, including insider accounts from Pete “The Greek” Diapoulas and theories involving Carmine Persico and the Patriarca family. Gary and Cam break down how the Gallos evolved into a rogue faction willing to kidnap capos, challenge Joe Profaci, and wage war against the Colombo family itself. The conversation also explores Joey Gallo’s prison years, his relationship with Harlem heroin kingpin Nicky Barnes, and the intellectual awakening that shaped his later persona. The hosts discuss Gallo’s ties to New York celebrities, including Jerry Orbach, Pete Falk, Ben Gazzara, and Neil Simon, along with the cultural impact that inspired Bob Dylan’s famous song “Joey.” Gary and Cam revisit the unsolved shooting of Joe Colombo at the Italian-American Civil Rights League rally and examine competing theories involving Jerome Johnson, the Gambino family, and the Gallos themselves. They also unpack the dramatic final hours of Joey Gallo’s life at Umberto’s Clam House in Little Italy, where Colombo gunmen allegedly tracked him down during his birthday celebration and opened fire in one of the Mafia’s most legendary assassinations. Using firsthand accounts, old newspaper reports, and mob insider testimony, this episode paints a vivid portrait of Joey Gallo’s rise, wars, betrayals, and enduring legend in organized crime history. To get Cam’s book click here Chicago Swan Song: A Mob Wife’s Story Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here.   . But let’s start out talking a little bit about Joey Gallo. Crazy Joey. Joey the blonde. He had blonde chest hair. Yeah. [2:59] That’s uh that’s rare among us uh italian i don’t fall into that category i can tell you he must have been a northern must have some northern italian somebody from up there around florence or something or right. [3:16] But you know he was a unique guy uh he was truly in in the mob world he was unique he He was crazy, and I believe later on he was diagnosed. I had some probably prison psychologist being mentally ill, whatever that was exactly. Do you remember what that was? Schizoid tendencies or something. You see that a lot. You see that a lot with the mob guys, though, so it’s hard to know if that was a real diagnosis or another I’m putting on. You see, I can name four or five guys who, when they were in prison. And, you know, I guess they’re all sociopaths, but you see a lot of them when they’re trying to get out of the service or trying not to go to the military. And they flunked the test with flying colors. And I’m sure most of them earned it. But it does seem to be a preponderance of guys who don’t do well on those psychiatric exams. But I think Joey earned his the natural way. Yeah. Of course, he was a young mobster. Came out of Red Hook. but a little later in his life where he got so famous and so well-known, before we go back into his early life, his last stint in the penitentiary, he had some kind of awakening, I would say. [4:35] He had a pretty good bit to do. He did about 10 years in prison, and in 10 years, you can either go down the pits or you can improve yourself. I know a lot of guys I’ve known and a lot of people out here, former mobsters that I talked to today, have done that and they’ve tried to improve themselves and lead a different life. Now, he didn’t ever want to lead a different life other than the mobster’s life. But when he was a penitentiary, my research led me to believe that he read and read and read a lot. He even learned the Evelyn Wood speed reading technique, which a lot of you younger guys won’t know that. It was a famous speed reading technique. I don’t remember exactly how it worked, but, uh, you know, and, and we came out, he, he picked up on popular culture when he came out. [5:31] And during the sixties and seventies, when everybody else was even in with the young guys started growing long hair and beards, he, he would, uh, he would say something and get rid of that shit. Don’t look like a hippie. Well, they almost killed one guy. Probably they did kill him. And some of the things they were saying was they didn’t trust anymore. Now that he became a fucking hippie. So, but he, when he came out, he got on the popular culture. He was dressing the part of a New York hipster in the 1950s and 60s. He was a classic movie gangster. He’d have like a dark shirt and a white tie and a pinstripe suit. And, you know, when he went before that infamous scene when he got called before the McClellan, he said, oh, this would be a good carpet to shoot dice on. He remarks in this book that they wanted a gangster, so he was going to give them a gangster. I mean, that entire thing was an act. I mean, he knew the gangster that people wanted. And in different crowds, he could mold himself to whatever the crowds wanted. [6:35] He knew how to read a room. yeah it was and that’s the one where he wore the sunglasses inside right right that was that was like a bombshell among the conservative law enforcement people today where he didn’t have the respect for that uh commission to even take his senate sunglasses off so he was he was something else he and he got to know uh because of this he’s in new york he’s in manhattan he gets to know sophisticated New Yorkers. And, and I just heard a saying from somebody, uh, I told this guy, uh, guy, uh, Springfield, Massachusetts mobster named Chickie kitchen. [7:13] Chickatelli, who is, he’s connected with John Gotti Jr. Right now there, there’s something coming up in the media that he’s a part of and Gotti Jr. Is going to do, I don’t know what, but, but he made a statement. He said, everybody wants the bandit to get away. And I remember smoking the bandit. We all pulled for the bandit to get away and and and he said that about mob guys and and the popularity of mob guys today and he said everybody likes the bandit to get away and i said man i’m going to use that he said well it’s not really mine he said i got it from gotty jr so i don’t know but but we all like the bandit to get away and and so that that’s what happened with joey gallo everybody likes the bandit to get away they don’t want to be the bandit and and they don’t want to have too much attention paid to him by the bandit but they want him to get away and and he got to know people like ben gazar and peter faulk uh in new york who were kind of a you know kind of a rounder kind of guys if i remember right and uh the playwright neil simon and and people like that he’s a modern reference you’ve got jerry orback who was on law and order for so long who played the uh the detective on law and order that was a jerry mara orback yeah yeah matter of fact he was in the restaurant or Bach and his wife were in the restaurant. [8:28] Just when he got killed or did they see him oh they saw him at the copacabana just right before and invited him to come eat with him and he didn’t come which i bet orbach’s glad he didn’t go eat with with the gallo that night so you know another thing is there’s a famous book by uh if you’re of a certain age you’ll remember this book by new york columnist jimmy breslin uh the gang that couldn’t shoot straight it was about the gallows and their war their first war with the persicos, and then the Columbo family. [9:01] And they say that Coppola used some of those situations and incidents that Breslin talked about, and that really happened during that mob war. The saying, going to the mattresses, that came out of that book, Jimmy Breslin. And then these guys, they’d rent an apartment and throw mattresses down, and they’d all hang out and hide out there until they went out to do battle with some of the opposing, killed one of the opposing uh uh family members that that they were in a war with so but cam found this uh a book it was a first person account from a greek associate of the gallo crew and his name was Peter Diapolous would you say that was a way to say that Diapolous yeah Pete the Greek Diapolous yeah Pete the Greek uh so it was uh when was that published it was published back in it was 73, 72 or 73 I mean because they put it out right after right after Gallo it would have been right after Gallo I’ve got a first edition here let me see it’s. [10:04] 76 so yeah it was right after he let a little bit of time die out and he wrote it this Steve Linakis who wrote it with him is also a Greek who wrote for the New York Times and they while they were writing it they spoke a lot of Greek together their Diapolous would only write it with a greek uh writer now what’s interesting is the title is the sixth family and you know is that you think that’s because the gallo brothers they had such a big and they did have a big crew. [10:34] I looked it up and I found like 10 or 15 names of the Gallo crew. You never know exactly who’s part of the crew and who isn’t, but did they want to become the sixth family, make the Gallo family? Is that why it’s called that the sixth family? I think so. I think, I think if you look at, you could compare them to the Spheros in a way. I think they thought that they had in their minds, they could take over. I mean, you got during the first Persico war. I mean, you’ve got the Gallos kidnapping all the leadership of, of, of the persico family and and old man persico checked himself into a hospital in uh florida to avoid anything happening to him down there but they got the underboss and a couple of high-ranking capos a consulary i mean it was these guys meant business and they’re just they’re just some kids so uh they were they were all they were a lot of them made guys because they killed uh Anastasia uh gallo uh joey and his brother larry were both made guys the younger brother albert was not but you know i think that they they had it in their minds that because they had a large crew yeah they could they could legitimize themselves and have the uh the gallo family they they ran their street they like you said a lot of guys under them so interesting now his parents umberto and mary gallo were from Italy, I believe. And his father was a Prohibition era bootlegger like many other immigrants. [11:59] Here’s one story I heard about Joey Gallo, which has kind of resonated with me, those of us of a certain age. There’s a movie that came out in 1949 called The Kiss of Death. And I’ve seen these clips. Richard Widmark plays a gangster character that was the, he was the epitome of a gangster in the 50s. His name was Tommy Udo, U-D-O. And he had this accent, the way he would talk, and it said that Gallo liked to talk like this. He kind of mimicked that guy. So check this clip out of Tommy Udo talking. Double-crossing squealers, buddy. What’s the matter? I don’t know nothing. So the yellow squirt beat it, huh? Took apart it, huh? That rat. Where is Where’d he go? I’m asking you Where’s that squealing son of yours? [13:03] You think a squealer can get away from me? You know what I do to squeeze? I let him have it in the belly. So that sounds like a real gangster, doesn’t it? That is what you think of. I remember that movie from years ago. And yeah, that’s what you think of when you think of gangster talk. [13:28] So, oh, I see now. I look back at my notes. It was when Gallo had a charge pending around this time, 4950, He was diagnosed with mental illness in the Kings County Hospital Center in Brooklyn. They thought he had schizophrenia and claimed that the cops first started calling him Crazy Joy, which makes sense. A lot of cops would maybe have access to that report. [13:54] This guy that wrote this book, Peter Diapolis, remember how he first met Crazy Joy? He grew up with them on the street, if I recall correctly. The Greek was one of the few non-Italians at Red Hook, if I’m remembering correctly. And he knew them from the time they were kids. A lot of people didn’t realize that he was, like you said, he was with Gallo when he was assassinated. But people didn’t realize that the Greek was with them going way on back when they went to the mattresses with the Persicos and everything. And he references that a lot in his book. But the Greek had been with them for years back when Larry Gallo, the oldest brother, was running the crew. He was loyal to Larry Gallo. And then when when Larry, Larry died of cancer while Joey was doing his his bit in prison, Joey comes out of prison and takes over the crew from the youngest brother, Albert Kidblast. And Joey runs the crew until he dies. But the Greek was a steady figure for years, grew up more or less with them. [15:02] So pete degree talks about the murder of albert anastasia and kind of gives an insider view of that now there’s always you know there’s there’s a couple of different stories about who actually killed albert anastasia and if you don’t know that murder this is the murder albert anastasia had his own family he was called the the mad hatter uh or the what was the other nickname he had uh the executioner the executioner he he was one bad dude one crazy dude and uh he was uh he was really uh what i remember about the situation he was exerting his muscle trying to push around some of the other mobsters trying to move in on some lansky stuff down in cuba trying to expand his. [15:51] Uh domain shall we say and uh joe Profaci didn’t like that and profaci was an old school mobster and he got together with vito Genovese is is the story and uh gambino was his under what, scalise was was uh Anastasia’s underboss he was murdered and then Carlo Gambino became anastasia’s uh second underboss so this is really the development of the Manhattan shall we say new york city mafia families in the 50s so uh Profaci had he had taken the gallo brothers and as a crew under his crime family he was immensely successful but he was also notoriously tight and he wouldn’t pay anybody anything and wouldn’t get and try to get everything for himself but gallo was trying to you know he was trying to rise in that world and uh beat the Greek claim that they took on the contract to kill Albert Anastasia, which was a pretty bold move on anybody’s part. He was a boss of one of the five families at the time, and they had Profaci and Genovese behind them. I don’t know if they knew exactly who all of the other bosses were behind them at the time. [17:12] It’s always a dicey deal. You get caught, and then those bosses that had you do it will give you up. Right. We didn’t know anything about this. We’ve got to kill them. [17:24] But Pete the Greek, he claimed that, you know, he laid it out pretty good. I don’t know. You remember how he laid it out, Cam? Uh, you, uh, go into it. It’s, uh, I got some notes here on that. It’s hard to remember some of this stuff off the top of your head, but so, uh. [17:45] Larry Gallo, according to Pete degree conducted surveillance on admin Anastasia and found that he went to this barbershop with a pattern. You know, you never want to get a pattern when you’re in that life. But he went to this barbershop like every a certain day, every week. And I don’t remember the day, but it was a certain day every week. So after a while, they like, OK, we could get him in the barbershop because it seemed like he relaxed in the barbershop. Even his his bodyguard that was always be with him would drift off while he was in the barbers in the barbers chair. So they tooled up uh the the gallow brothers and and what pete the greek claims is a guy named joseph gianelli and carmine persico uh which will who will turn on the gallows in the end. [18:32] And there was another guy all together and it was it was a classic mob hit and they had uh they came up with a car uh the wheel man waited at the curb with a getaway car another guy stood in the as a look out there on the street and another guy inside of the hotel lobby. And then finally two men and there’s another classic is they dress identically and just wear scarves around their mouths where he wouldn’t really look with sunglasses on. So people wouldn’t really, you know, I wouldn’t think too much about it. And it’s really hard when people, two guys or three guys dress identically in a deal like that, everything, all the details kind of blend in together. That’s a really smart. If you guys want to go out and do a hit or do some kind of a robbery, all of you dress identically because it makes it a lot harder for people to identify. And that’s what they did with Gotti. Yeah. Or those Russian hats. Right. That’s a good point. Barbara will relate that. They came in, just started shooting, just walked in while he’s in a chair, pushed the barber aside, just started shooting. Anastasia lunges out of the chair. They said towards his reflection in the mirror, probably the only thing he could see and and then collapses immediately. And he’ll die on the floor really before the emergency crew arrive. [19:51] And if you they left his body there, because there’s a ton of photographs out there of him on the floor and people standing around. Back in those days, the police didn’t lock down the scene so much as they do today. A good photographer, especially one that was already in with the cops, would have bought them a lunch or a cup of coffee or slipped them a few bucks every time they hit a crime scene. That photographer could get in close and get the money shot, as we say. You know, the hit team, after they murdered him, they just walked out of the lounge, out of the lobby, out into the lobby, disappear. [20:29] Disappear out in the street because they got a car already waiting and they don’t run. They don’t make any extra moves. And I could be willing to bet that they threw those guns away. They drove pretty close to the river, the East River or the Bay or whatever body of water was close and pitched those guns as soon as they got away. Uh now diopolis will claim that uh the gallo brothers were all made as a result of that i think persico may have already been a made guy at that time i’m not sure, but that’s that’s a story about who killed albert anastasia and that was really from a what we would almost call a primary source yeah that would have been in the 50s you know they closed the books and uh uh i want to say this is what after appleaken right right at the end of the fifties when the fbi caught on so that would have been in the uh in the fifties the books were pretty open it from from what we know so yeah the uh the gallows and persco would have been some of the last guys last guys made and uh so yeah that that does that does tie up now there is another story out there that a guy named joseph riccobono. [21:37] And a couple other guys did this murder, but I don’t know. [21:42] I couldn’t find that much about that. It’s certainly not somebody that was that close to them telling the story. What do you think about that other story? You know, the only other thing that I’ve heard that makes much sense is there’s a there’s a patriarcha guy who supposedly came up. I can’t remember his name offhand. He’s not Italian, who supposedly came up under patriarcha’s orders to assist with the murder. And then he drove back down there’s a uh vinnie theresa talks about this guy coming up and driving back now the reason that might make sense is because uh nikki bianco who was a a member of the patriarca family was originally tied in with the gallows and then when the gallows had their fallen out with uh profachi the patriarca family helped to mediate henry tamaleo the underboss patriarchs helped to mediate the dispute. So there were close ties between the patriarchs and the gallows and also between Genovese. So that’s the only thing that I’ve heard that makes sense as far as placing anybody else with the Anastasias. It was Kazarian or somebody who was at the scene was a patriarchal guy who came up to assist. But that’s the only one that really has any sort of ring of truth to it. But that’s, you know, as far as anything else I’ve heard, the gallows with Persico is really the only one that makes sense. [23:09] And Pete the Greek’s account really is the one that makes sense. [23:14] Really lays it out makes sense and and he was real close to these guys he didn’t go on it he wouldn’t go he wasn’t italian he right would not take him on that more than likely right i suppose he could but they had plenty of people like like you know the three brothers you know the brothers aren’t gonna rat each other out so that’s the safest way to do anything you got the right the blood blood uh connection you got the mob blood connection so i i don’t know i i’ll have to go with that you know it seemed like that meeting at the la stella restaurant that the cops stumbled into supposedly or kind of a setup deal santo traficante was up from florida at the time and he they said that he was staying in that hotel that sherdan hotel he checked out the next day and went back to florida so you know who knows john uh john nazarian was i just i just i just found him john john nazarian was a patriarchal guy that’s the only one and i i don’t know but that’s the only addition to that story whether he drove or was lookout that has made any sense uh the patriarchs might have might have played a role but uh i can’t say but you’re right uh that i was always pretty curious about uh about uh tampa being having breakfast with uh with Anastasia and then flying out that morning. [24:39] So, uh, Diaopolis describes the Gallo crew as an outlaw crew, which makes sense. You know, you get those kinds of little things that really ring true, and that makes sense. And when you look at the makeup of it, uh, he had, uh, according to, uh, Diapolis, he had, they had a Greek, him, two Syrians, an Egyptian, a Puerto Rican, a Jew, an Irishman, about 14 or 15 Italians. Vic Amuso was in that crew, and Carmine Persico was in the Gallo crew when they were early. [25:12] Uh, this Nick Bianco, uh, was there and then he ended up going to the patriarca family, as you mentioned, uh, Michael Rizzatello was part of that crew and he moved out to Los Angeles. So this was, this was kind of a training ground for a lot of bosses over the next few years. [25:32] That’s a good way to put it. that’s an interesting way to put it now they had this meeting place on president street in the lower east side the uh east village mafia shall we say i just interviewed an author about their book about the east village mafia uh but uh you know they had to do this anastasia head they had to have they had to have the bosses behind them that was too big a deal because he was an old time old school ally of frank costello and and we know vito genovese and frank costello were were not exactly bosom buddies and it’s right and costello just been shot right so uh i don’t know man it’s uh you know sometimes you can’t explain things or you know it’s business as usual people wanted anastasia out of the way uh maybe uh profaci was easier to deal with now he didn’t live much longer after that uh can’t remember who took over his uh gambino and gambino that’s right carlo gambino took over the profetia family took over the uh the uh anastasia family or i mean anastasia family uh there’s many vowels gary too many vowels who took over from profetia he didn’t live that much joe maglioco okay all right so um. [26:51] You know, and here’s a story that Pete the Greek told that I thought was, it was indicative of what I mentioned about Profaci. Profaci, in the late 50s, he was mad at a bookmaker and a loan shop. A guy named Frank Abbatemarco. And in reality, he probably just wanted to take the business away from the guy and get it for himself. but he was mad at him for whatever reason. He ordered a Gallo crew who worked underAbbatemarco to kill him. Profaci claimed the guy owed him $50,000 and was withholding it just to protest, you know, said, you know, I’m not giving in to you anymore. And somebody did shoot and kill Abbatemarco in a tavern over in Brooklyn. And most people believe that Gallo brothers did this. Other people, Joey Gallo would claim that he didn’t do it, but this event became the catalyst for the Gallo move against Joe Profaci, which started one of the early wars between the established crime families and the Gallo brothers. He didn’t pay them. [28:05] He didn’t pay him hard on anything. He promised that he would do more for him, and then he didn’t do anything. Give him part of Abbatemarco’s policy rackets. [28:18] So he was notoriously tight-fisted, and he pissed off the wrong people there. So shortly after that, they made a crazy play against Profaci, just to let you know a little bit about Crazy Joey Gallo, and his brothers true uh they this is just before profachi died they kidnapped his underboss who became the bosses as uh cam mentioned joseph magliocco and four capos profachi capos and one of them was joe colombo which will come back into the story later on won’t it uh they sent a message to profachi that they wanted this bigger piece of the action and they didn’t want to pay so much tribute so they they uh bargained back and forth uh gallows brought the clan plan to their crew who were all involved and and carmine persico was involved and with the crew and what they wanted to do and what one of the gallow brothers did was to just go ahead and give the uh profaci people back and then start negotiating. Uh, you know, it’s like a message. We’re sending a message. Now you better negotiate with us. You know what I mean? Larry, the oldest brother who was, who was running the gallo crew at the time. I think he, uh, right. He was into Joe and Joe, it’s the whole time is chomping at the bit. Let’s kill one of them. Yeah. [29:47] I don’t, I don’t send a message. Won’t it? [29:52] So Larry prevailed and they released the hostages and, uh, And when they released the hostages, Profaci just declared war. And they started, first they stuck a guy, they killed a guy named Joe Jelly, G-O-L-E. What a hell of a name that is. That was the Gallo brothers. And this was where the fish wrapped in the newspaper story came from. After they killed him and they dumped him in the ocean, they sent a fish wrapped in newspaper to Joe Jelly’s wife. Then Profaci tried to pull a little trick on him. He had Carmine Persico in his pocket by then, and Gallo still thought he was part of their crew. Profaci offered to meet with Larry Gallo or send his driver, John Ciamone, to meet with Larry and talk about some peace terms and maybe we can negotiate this out. Carmine Persico and another guy knew where this joint was and they got in there early and laid down in the booth. Then when Sciamoni and Gallo got there, he directed Gallo to the next booth over and as soon as they sat down, Persico jumped up over the top of the seat, put a piece of rope over Gallo’s head and started strangling him, grotting him, I think is the term. Yeah. [31:17] And as he was dying, a bee cop, opens the door and steps in right out of the godfather you know right and uh steps in says what the fuck’s going on at that time persico and and scamoni they run out the door they have a little gun battle with the police officer and uh in in in the melee persico gets up and gets away and uh gallo of course lives well that’s where carmine persico got the nickname the snake is my understanding is that your understanding on that yeah that’s uh that was he was the snake he was the double cross he was yeah. [31:57] Shifty guy that’s that’s two double crosses you figure he turned on profachi and then he turned on the uh the gallows really gallows hated him after that joey goes to joey goes to the penitentiary after that he’s uh he’s trying to extort some money on him from a guy named teddy moss who was wired up and uh profachi sends word out to moss that hey i’ll protect you if you’ll to go ahead and testify against Gallo and he did and he got I don’t know eight or nine years in the penitentiary 10 years that’s that’s dirty in that world I mean uh you know I I got in the mob world for a mob boss to offer to protect somebody to testify I mean you know Gary that’s that’s not something you hear about in the mob world I mean I’m I’m you know if somebody wants to protect themselves I’m I’m I’m fine I’m not saying people shouldn’t shouldn’t shouldn’t testify. [32:50] But for a mob boss to set somebody else up to testify, that seems to break some of their rules, I would think. Yeah, well, but anyhow, Crazy Joy goes to the tenitentiary in this period of time, and that’s when he starts improving himself, as I talked about before, but he also makes some connections, and this is when he makes connections with black gangsters. There was a real well-known Harlem heroin dealer named Nicky Barnes who became famous as the, you know, almost like the guy before him was the godfather of Harlem, I believe. But Nicky Barnes was a really big-time heroin dealer in Harlem. [33:30] If you’ve seen the movie American Gangster, about Frank Lucas, Cuba Gooding Jr. Plays Leroy Nicky Barnes. Okay. okay and so bumpy johnson ran uh harlem before the two right right that’s the that’s the godfather harlem series with forrest whitaker that was that he was the first one uh that kind of threw in with um you know what was the prostitute’s name there um queenie um queenie something but they they really ran all the rackets in harlem and dealt with the italians and then it was uh bumpy johnson I mean, then it was, um, uh, Frank Lucas and this Nicky Barnes. Yeah. But he connected with Nicky Barnes there, Barnes, there were people trying to, uh, to kill Gallo and beat him up. And, and once he connected with Nicky Barnes, well, the, the large black contingency of men in the penitentiary, Nicky Barnes controlled. And from then on the, uh, nobody went after Joey Gallo in the penitentiary, as long as he was close to Nicky Barnes. Yeah. It was, it was dangerous for him because the, the, uh, the Persicos could still get him in prison. So he was, he was in as much danger in as he was out. [34:49] Now, Barnes would later say that he called him Crazy Joey, said Crazy Joey loved hijacking trucks. He wanted to do some business with me and my people to hijack trucks. He said Gallo mentored him in mafia business practices and how it needs to be more organized. Kind of like John Gotti did with the Aryan Brotherhood, it always appeared to me. And that one guard I knew that, that was in there that watched Gotti meet with Aryan Brotherhood people every day, always sat at the table with them. And he said, it seemed to me like to the guard that the Aryan Brotherhood calmed down, became more businesslike in their illegal activities. They were still doing all, you know, controlled all the dope in the penitentiaries and had a big operation outside the penitentiaries, you know, nationwide. And he just felt like that they listened to Gotti and modeled themselves along Gotti and Mafia, more businesslike lines. [35:49] Nicky Barnes did create a commission himself and several other guys, five-man commission. Yeah, interesting. Well, during this time, actually, during this time, Diopolis did tell us one story about how he and Larry Gallo and Nicky Bianco tried to kill Carmine Persico. They said a remote control underneath the hood of his car, a bomb, sat back and watched. And they had noticed that every time he’d go get in his car, he’d raise the hood and check for bombs. So he figured that would be the time that they would throw the switch when he raised that hood. The guy that was supposed to throw the switch didn’t throw it when he raised the hood. And then Persico didn’t see the bomb, but he got inside the car and they set off the bomb then. But it wasn’t set in a place where it would kill anybody, kind of like Lefty Rosenthal out in Las Vegas. The bomb wasn’t in a good place and it wasn’t big enough. Yeah that’s the sparrows could help them with that putting 23 sticks under his. [36:57] Really you’re holding kansas city don’t play with that yeah and that and and when that last sparrow got killed they put so much dynamite under that little uh used car office that he was in that it blew him and his wheelchair clear out through the roof and out into the parking lot that’s the If you’re going to kill somebody with a bomb, you’ve got to have enough to kill them. But in New York City, you’ve got people walking down the street, and you do not want any collateral. The mob does not like collateral damage. I’ll say that. And I think like that Sylvester Spiro deal here in Kansas City, they knew they were sitting and watching, and they knew he was in that building by himself, and they could see the whole lot, and you couldn’t see anybody else around. And so, you know, they had it underneath the office. So I would imagine if there’d been anybody came in with him, they just wouldn’t have hit the switch until some other time as wish they could catch him in there. Just wait till he got in there by himself. Hell, they might have tried two or three other times and catch him by himself because we have never had any collateral damage from bombings in Kansas City. And I don’t know about other cities. I can’t think of any. There may be maybe in Cleveland. I don’t know. they did a lot of bombing in Cleveland. What? [38:19] I hadn’t heard of anything, but, uh, I, like you said, they’re pretty careful. I mean, bombs are usually either send a message or to, uh, you know, they are very careful with, with, with bombing. So let’s talk a little more about Diapolis. He talks about how Joe Colombo kind of like started moving up. He ends up being the boss of the old Procacci family and it becomes a Colombo family. Colombo knew that Carlo Gambino was, had, was ambitious, shall we say. He thought maybe Gambino wanted to be the Capo de Tutti de Capo and the boss of all bosses. And he kind of modeled himself after that. He exposed the plot to kill Gambino. And Gambino then made sure that Joe Colombo was the boss of the Proposi family as Maglioco went away. Yeah. Joe Bonanno and Joe Magliocco, the new boss of the Profachis, came up with a plan to kill Carlo Gambino, Tommy Lucchese, and Frank DeSimone in L.A. Bonanno wanted to take over Los Angeles. [39:40] Gambino and Lucchese were considered the liberal members of the commission and so they wanted to take over the commission and there’s some people who say they were going to kill. [39:51] Magadino up in Buffalo but they figured they could take control of the commission and Bonanno placed himself as Capo di Tutti Capi, and Colombo who had a long history of doing heavy work was supposed to be the guy who was in charge of it all. And instead he went to Gambino, like you said, cause he knew that Gambino was a, was a sharp guy who was, uh, a dangerous guy. And he told Gambino and Lucchese about the plan. And that was a good move on his part. Um, cause Gambino did rise and, and Colombo became the boss and, and, uh, Larry and Albert Gallo brokered a piece with Joe Colombo, uh, Here’s kind of an interesting little story that Pete the Greek tells is that the commission appointed this Nick Bianco, who had been a Gallo member of the crew, to represent the Gallo crew and to sit down with the Colombo family to try to get over this Colombo war. That they brought in Raymond Patriarca from New England to negotiate, and they agreed on peace. And what’s really interesting is then Nick Bianco ends up transferring up to New England under Patriarca and spent the rest of his mom career as a member of the Patriarca family. It’s kind of like if you watch somebody in another unit at work or another division or whatever, say, Hey, I like the way that guy works. It’s pretty good. Can I get him? Let’s see if I can get him to transfer to my unit or my division. [41:19] Mom works the same way i guess right i first read that and i thought what the hell you know he ended up a pretty pretty high-ranking guy bianco i guess he he must not have been made in the profanches but yeah once he transferred to the patriarcha he got uh he made his way way on up yeah well um he may have been i’m trying to remember if he was boss in the 90s i think that when they had that huge bust of the uh patriarchal family bianca who bianca kept himself pretty low uh yeah he i think he became the boss in the in the 90s once they wiped everybody out i didn’t really remember that it’s like we were saying earlier it’s kind of hard to keep up on all the details and all the different families but back to joy gallo all this is going on while he’s in the penitentiary and he’s like, you know, he’s educating himself and he’s developing this persona. Reading a lot of existentialism, a lot of that Jean-Paul Sartre, a lot of Albert Camus and yeah, changing his way he looks at life and what means what and what’s important and what, what isn’t. And yeah, he, uh, I’ve read some of that myself and it’s like life, you know, to them in life is meaningless. So you just make whatever meaning you want out of it. Right. And so Gallo, you know, he if life’s meaningless, meaningless. [42:45] Don’t try to take on somebody else’s meaning. Just, you know, make your own meaning out of life. Do what you want. And when he came out, he was like a different guy. I think it seemed that’s when he started obnoxious with celebrities and becoming this celebrity gangster. I wonder if he had, you know, and this is this is kind of an odd way, but he had just come out of a war. And a lot of that existentialism came out of of world war one and you wonder if somebody who had been day-to-day living with the idea that they might be dead at any minute and people shooting at them you know have some some little bit of ptsd and that sort of uh understanding that that all things are you know it you accept that that that that, Life and death is what it is. You know, that sort of shaded his view that living so close to death and as he did for so long in that war, you know, kind of a PTSD almost with with Gallo. Bless the penitentiary. That’s right. You’re living next to death every day. That’s right. Now, you can get comfortable. You can get protection from some people, but still, you’re vulnerable as hell in a penitentiary. Yeah, that’s a good point. [43:56] It’s a tough world. That’s a good point. So Pete the Greek tells a few stories. Once he decides he’s out, his brother, who Larry, is dead of cancer. Joey’s now the boss. He’s the strongest personality of this crew. And the boss, he’s back out. Joe Colombo tries to meet with him and offer him some money as a peace gesture. Well, the story Pete the Greek tells, he only offered him a thousand bucks. I don’t know what the deal is with that, but, uh, uh, that could be like a, it could be like an insult and Gallo didn’t, wouldn’t even attend the meeting. And for immediately what he starts doing is planning on killing Joe Colombo, uh, cause he thought he ought to be the boss of the old profassi family. So Pete, the Greek started telling stories about some of the many plots to kill Joe Colombo before he actually gets killed, which is, you know, one of those stories to this day is argued about on, on who did that. And how that went down, which it is. It’s one of the strangest stories to me and mobbed them. Absolutely. It’s just like, what the hell? I mean, I remember at the time reading it in the newspapers, like what the hell? I kind of wonder if Frank Sheeran did it. Really? And then killed Jerome Johnson. [45:19] Gave him up as a scapegoat, kind of like this, kind of like the JFK killing. Lee Harvey Oswald. You know they just they just shoved the black guy in there and reached around him and and shot and killed joe clumbo and then said hey look what this guy did let’s kill him and they did, so anyhow they uh they got a van this is pretty complicated that’s why one thing good thing about this book is he’s got all these great details yeah they cover the inside walls with mattresses and fiberglass to insulate any sound, And it’s like something the cops would do in a way if you want a van in close, really close to whoever you’re watching. If you’re down by the Ravenite Social Club, you want to sit right across the street or right next to it, why you might insulate to make sure there’s no sound comes out. Put a one-way glass in the back door and the side panels and a plywood partition between the driver and the rear compartment. I sat in all minivans that were tricked out like that. One thing ours had a periscope in it we could raise up, looked like a vent on the top, but it was a periscope that you could raise up. You could even attach a camera to it and shoot pictures through it. [46:35] There’s not a lot of guys that can bring stories like that here. They also drilled some holes. This is reminiscent of the Washington, D.C. Beltway killers. Remember that father and son? That’s right. The father had the son drive and he had a big Chevy full-size car and he got in the trunk and drilled a hole in the trunk and then pull up to a gas station or wherever people were stopped and with their cars and standing around for a little bit and they’d shoot and kill people. So they drilled a couple of holes big enough, stick the rifle barrel out and got a scoped rifle. And, um, first thing, the worst one they tried, Clumbo, I guess had a funeral parlor. I didn’t really remember that, but it’s right out of your watch a movie. The seven ups. I think Roy Snyder was in it. Maybe it’s about this, like the intelligence unit watching mobsters. And so their, their surveillance, I think it’s early on in the movie. They started out there watching a funeral parlor and they’ve got a guy undercover inside with the funeral parlor. Now the story about this, the seven ups was a squad that, that only arrested people that they got convicted of felonies with seven years or more come stupid title, but it was a pretty good mob movie, actually a little known mob movie. [47:51] So anyhow, they’re staked out this funeral parlor in this, uh, van. So I can watch some people come and go and, and some kids had gone in and came back down to walk right toward the van and then start checking the door handles, looking inside. And boy, that happens to you all the time. And you’re out there in a van, And kids would come along and just wonder if it’s open, see if there’s anything they get in there, steal and then go on. So but they figured they were burnt. So they gave up on that plan and moved to his house. [48:24] And one night they thought they saw him leave. He started to leave. And then some other guys came out, jumped in a Lincoln and drove straight at the van, but then went right on by. They were jumpy as hell. They think it’s like typical cops. You always think you’re burnt. People always think they’re burnt immediately. And all you got to do is just be quiet and calm and don’t jump. Don’t do anything until it’s obvious, because if you’re burnt, they let you know you’re burnt. But there you guys were jumping and they thought they were burnt already. And then it looked like Columbo came out. Then a police car arrived and said Pete DeGreek, he noticed that the guy that they thought Columbo was really a lookalike and wasn’t really Columbo. And so they ended up giving up there. is too much effort thought they were burnt and uh it just became too hard to do that i kept thinking about the words reading this of of of cork savella talking about you’ve got a you’ve got to lay on a guy you’ve got to lay on him you’ve got to lay on him uh and it seems like a lot of the guys in the gallo crew uh with the exception of pete the greek just didn’t want to lay on him they just wanted to show up and and fire the gun and just take off and go get a drink they didn’t. [49:38] They didn’t want to put in the work a lot of them as he said you got to go where they go that’s right you got to be a block away less than a block away you got to you got to sit on them you got to lay on them and i remember that term lay on i remember frank calabrese jr was first one i heard talking about that he said you know we we lay on a guy i never really heard that before but we lay on a guy he said sometimes you get like a refrigerator box well in a big city say you don’t you know like you can’t get a car on the street sometimes you can’t get in a good position maybe you can’t get an it’s best to get an apartment right across the street and look out the window but you could take a refrigerator box and set it out there a couple cut a couple of holes in it and and sit there for a long time before anybody’s going to mess with you uh so uh you know that’s a way to kill somebody like that it’s a tough way to do it because you got to have patience uh we had the same problem with other policemen you know and they they want to go out and drive by and if there’s nothing right there, they just drive on and go look somewhere else. They just want to keep moving. The guys that did better were the guys who just sat and watched and waited. And then you make those connections, see people show up and see what’s really going on. You can’t just do it just by driving by. Mm-hmm. [50:52] So they continue on. And during this time, Joe Colombo, and I don’t really know, remember, a lot about this. There’s a lot of discussion about this Italian-American rights organization that Joe Colombo formed. I remember when The Godfather first came out, all the Italian people in Kansas City bought out the tickets. It wasn’t a mob-connected deal. It was, what’s the name of it? Columbus something because columbus park was the area where italians first moved into but they had an organization that bought out all the tickets refused to go so joe colombo had started this organization to support italian american civil rights league right and uh and you know one thing they were against was all this media attention on the mafia it was a it was a big damn scam but you notice in the godfather they never say cosa nostra and they never say the word mafia That was because Columbo said they couldn’t say it. He had the unions, he had the film unions, and he said they couldn’t say those two terms. They do say him in Godfather 2 because Columbo was dead, but they don’t say him in Part 1. Interesting. I hadn’t picked up on that. [52:04] So he’s done this. I understand he was making money out of this thing. A lot of jealousy. A lot of money. Also, among other of my bosses, to see him do this for whatever reason. And he’s there’s they like have a demonstration at Columbus Circle of all places there. And I think it’s on the west side of Manhattan. [52:25] I can’t remember how far up it is. Like, I don’t know, 60, 70 some street right off of if you go up Broadway, I believe, while you come to Columbus Circle right next to Central Park. So he’s got he’s had a big demonstration and getting a lot of press attention, a lot of press people there and news news photographers are there. And there’s a black dude there that got a camera and he pushes up close and, and he pulls a gun or he’s got a gun and he shoots and kills Joe Columbo. And then when a Columbo’s bodyguards shoots and kills him, guy’s name was Jerome Johnson. And they were never able to solve this murder. Uh, the official theory is he was a lone gunman. I don’t know. Uh, what, what do you think about that? You know uh i think that the the the easy answer is that that joe gallo made connections with uh with black guys and that and that he got this guy to to kill uh to kill uh colombo but after reading this book. [53:29] This casts quite a bit of doubt on that. Do you remember what Pete the Greek claimed? Pete the Greek says he had a bunch of different theories, but he said they didn’t really have any connection to Jerome Johnson and that none of the guys that they knew had connection. [53:45] He says that Abby Schatz about Marco’s son might have done it because he had a bunch of policy, and he might have done it because he was mad at the gallows for his father. He said that the the columbos uh themselves might have done it uh because they i don’t know he said that carlo gambino might have done it and used a black guy because he wanted to put uh he wanted to direct the suspicion at gallo but he had a bunch of different theories um all of them were designed to point the attention at the gallows what’s interesting about this though is even in 1976. [54:26] Pete, the Greek is saying he, you know, it wasn’t us. And, and we knew that they were coming after us and that everybody thought it was us. He talks about, you know, Pete, the Greek, I guess he did not have another thing to keep in mind is he didn’t have immunity at the time this was written. So if he had planned a murder, you know, he talks about several times they were, they were going to, to commit murders, but i don’t remember any time where he talks about actually he talks about shooting people who shot at him yeah so i don’t know if he would be as free with information that he had shot go but he’s he’s pretty insistent that they did not kill colombo you know and it’s hard to say i found some other information indicated this jerome johnson had placed a bomb at the italian american civil rights league office a few months before yeah so you know i don’t know i mean he and he could be a lone gunman he could be just a guy that you know joe colombo was in the news all the time. [55:26] You know people people get fixated on people like that i mean that happens and they they go out and try to kill them for whatever reason but it was in the middle of the mob war between the gallows and the columbos yeah and joey gallow did have pretty well-known connections in the black gangster community now but they didn’t really connect this drone johnson And particularly with one of the heroin gangs or something. So I don’t know. I guess Frank Sheeran must have done it. It’s the only thing I can say. [55:59] It’s right. It’s interesting, though, when Diapoulas begins talking about it, because you really see how… [56:07] How these street guys minds have to work i mean he starts weaving together this huge web of intrigue and he comes up with a bunch of different theories and you realize how these guys have to look at it from 17 different angles because if you don’t you’re dead if you don’t see 17 different possibilities and 17 different people to be you know to be suspicious of and x amount of people who are all trying to kill you one time that’s how you end up dead i mean that’s that’s you really don’t have too many friends because any any of them could kill you and it once that’s one of the things i really appreciate about this book is it just shows the the thought process of a street guy yeah it does that so now we’re we’re on up into the 1972 and the death of joy gallo uh everybody knows he’s died so there’s no big reveal here at the end of this but pete the greek was there that night which is uh there’s like a couple of different stories about that the one he told and there’s one that other people told uh under oath that uh cam found a uh new york times newspaper article that yeah he discusses that article in the book too pete the greek and and his girlfriend is gumari i guess and join his wife and joy sister and what i thought was interesting his 10 year old daughter was out with them they were out celebrating his birthday and they went to the coca cabana and we’re drinking champagne now i got to do a. [57:37] Story on the coca cabana and the mob and music business and all that so that you can be a long one coming uh like that coca cabana copa cabana goes way back with the mob i think to costello and and uh. [57:53] Back into the 30s 40s and 50s but anyhow on that particular night pete the greek said don rickles was a floor show it happened exactly like honestly this is the scene the scene in the irishman yeah comes from this book where he bumps where he bumps into buffalino and says what’s used to that bullshit league you know everything in that movie whoever wrote that scene had access to that book just just for for the audience so you know whoever’s that scene in the irishman comes directly word for word from the sixth family by by pete diapolis it it’s it’s interesting because in reading it i thought you know you can really see that whoever wrote that scene did have access to this book yeah and and did frank sharon read this book in order to put himself into the well what we know is based on based on reading the epilogue we know that charles brant read this book because he he. [58:52] Comments on it two or three times so charles brant okay talks about he talks about this book so we we know that that he read it before he wrote i heard you paint houses yeah okay interesting but uh don rickles insults everybody pete the greek says and even some battalions as usual but he was always pretty careful with certain people even like looked up there there’s like an upper terrace where the gallo party was made some comments and joey stood up and acted like he was going to throw a champagne down rickles kind of did a little play like that. [59:25] Another interesting little inside baseball if you will peter creek claims that. [59:31] His 10 year old daughter gallo’s 10 year old daughter is smoking a cigarette she asked her dad for a light now i don’t know that’s like you wouldn’t make something like that up i know think of it i mean uh who knows i remember times have changed a bit i was 10 year old 10 years old there were some little some of the little tough guys that that did smoke cigarettes so yeah my father says he started picking up butts when he was eight yeah that’s what he said of course he’s no longer with us and that was more like because his cigarettes so probably the gallo daughter and still with us either that’d be interesting to find her in her side in this story but uh so yeah that’s and as cam said he uh meet the greek says you know russell buffalino’s there and uh joy gallum buffalino talk and and uh he knows joy knows that buffalino is supporting joe colombo and the uh colombo’s italian american civil rights group and and you know he makes some derogatory comment that night. Do you really believe in that bullshit league? Yeah. [1:00:36] Pete creek says buffalino didn’t smile said he just looked away and didn’t smile at all they didn’t think it was funny and and it was so tense that another mobster at the table stood up and took joy by the arm and kind of that was frank that was frank oh was it a frank yeah and yeah and pete in diapolis book he said frank the the the goon who was with uh oh with uh yeah he said that that was those friends like oh come on joey we don’t you know let’s let’s just have a drink You know, you can’t talk to him. He’s a boss, you know. I think Pete said, oh, I see now in my notes. Pete said, so he’s a boss. I’m a boss, you know. And it was like, you know, he was like throwing up into his face. And he was already, you know, in this war with Columbo’s. And they already were plotting and plotting to kill him. This was the night, as we mentioned earlier, that Jerry Orbach was there. And he and Joey, according to Pete, invited Orbach and his wife to go out for food. But they declined. [1:01:33] There weren’t, they didn’t know it wasn’t a real insider. It wasn’t Pete, the Greek that then had told them and then steered them to the Umberto’s clam house that night. For example, they had, nobody knew where they were going because what Pete, the Greek said, Joey wanted to eat Chinese and drove to Chinatown and the place they wanted to go place called Sue Lings was closed. And so then they’re just driving around and Chinatown just blends right into little Italy and the mulberry street. If you’ve ever been there, I didn’t really realize it until I went there once and realized they’re like cheek by jowl, as we say, like right next to each other. Yeah. They saw a big sign from Berto’s clam house. So they pulled over and, uh, uh, actually the brother to the guy that known as a guy named Matthew Ionello, Maddie, the horse, Maddie, the horse, who was big in, uh. [1:02:25] The genovese guy and and ran a lot of the porn and and all the the rackets down around 42nd street he was a a pretty well-known mobster at the time another mob associate uh called joe pesh uh or no wait a minute yeah there was a guy called joe pesh but there was a guy named joseph luperrelli and he was he becomes important he claims that they hollered out to matty the horse and said, how’s the food? And he said, well, my brother owns a place. The food’s good. So they went into Humberto’s Clam House to celebrate much Joey Gallo’s 43rd birthday. Lupare would help write a book afterwards. And he also was testified to this. And Cam found the newspaper article about that testimony. Can you tell us about that, Cam, what he said went down that night? So what Luparelli said is that he was a hanger-on. He wanted to be a made guy and he had sort of done some work for for maddie the horse and he was trying to get tight with the columbos he sees joey gallo pull in and he uh he runs down the street to where he knows some of his uh colombo guys are uh uh kind of uh and a couple brothers and uh uh. [1:03:42] They make a call to Joe Iacovelli, who’s the consigliere for the Colombos. He says, go ahead. He makes a phone call to the Genovese. He says, okay, go ahead and take him out. [1:03:54] So they gather up a bunch of guns. These Sonny Pinto, it’s DiBiase, and a couple of brothers, and four or five of them run down there, and they see the Gallo brothers, and they shoot it up. They kill them, and they all run out. Pete the Greek fires after them. He unloads his pistol after them, hits the back of the car. Yeah, he got shot. He got shot in the rear end, and then I think he shot out the tire. Was it the tire that he hit? But he shot the car. They parked the car at one of the guy’s mother’s houses, and they were all hiding out. Lu Pirelli, DiBiase, Joe Pesce, these guys were all hiding out at a safe house. So Luparelli starts going stir crazy. He starts thinking that the Columbo’s are trying to poison it. So he’s going crazy. And this whole time, the police are listening in on a wiretap. Now, did I’m trying to remember, did Luparelli gave up the apartment? And so the police start listening in on a wiretap. So they’re listening to every call, every call that goes in. [1:05:12] Luparelli is working with the police. And at the same time, he’s worried that these guys are poisoning him. So every call that goes in and out of this apartment for the next couple of weeks about this murder and about killing Joe Gallo and the Columbo’s plans and how they’re going to get these guys safe and how they’re going to get them out of New York. The cops record. So there’s no… There’s no question that, you know, the cops have recordings of these guys on record talking about, we just shot Joe Gallo, and here’s what we’re going to do to get out of the city. And then Lou Pirelli goes into protective custody, and he testifies. [1:05:53] He gives up a lot of Colombo information. They’ve got these recordings. I don’t know that anybody went down because i think that uh yeah i think that people disappeared and they didn’t they didn’t have enough uh evidence because i think they were it might have been illegal wiretap i can’t remember it probably was at that point in time i think they were just i think that yes 70 yeah i think they were just trying to get the information but uh luparelli gave up a bunch of information this is back when when they would get guys just to get the information on the mob, especially in the 70s, and they didn’t get any of the guys, so officially nobody was charged, but they did record all the information, listened in on it while these guys described all the details of the murder. Those details were then given to the New York Times, who wrote an article about it. When that article came out, Pete the Greek was still in the hospital. I mean, this article came out within a couple weeks of Gallo’s murder. Pete the greek was still recuperating he was being pete the greek was charged he got a handgun charge yeah he’s a felon i think that’s right and then they had him with a handgun so yeah he read that article and he started putting things together in his mind and running through and he had a pretty good idea who it who was responsible but that article finally said itified everything so he named um. [1:07:16] What was that guy’s name? DiBlasi. DiBlasi. Yeah. DiBlasi, Sonny Pinto, and Lu Pirelli, and Joe Pett. That’s another thing about this book is how everybody knows everybody, how small the criminal world is. Everybody knows Greek, and everybody knows this one and that one. And he recognized all the guys right off, even if he’s a guy that he only knew just a little bit. But it’s incredible how he recognized all these guys just by sight. And I guess that’s, you have to, uh, in that, in the life, but, uh, he didn’t testify against any, nobody does. And that’s why there was no charges brought against anybody except, except, uh, Pete to Greek because they had him with a gun. You know, they didn’t need another mobster to testify about that. They had the cops and, and other square Johns that were sitting in the, uh, tavern. Plus they probably could uh forensically uh tie that gun to uh to diapolis so he ends up doing some time he’s the only one that did any time out of it was yeah that’s right uh yeah the guy who got shot up and shot back was the guy who carmine di biasi sonny pinto the guy who he says and who the article says and who the uh who the cops recorded saying shot up the place uh did no time He was eventually murdered. [1:08:40] I forget what the details were of that, but Carmine DiBiase, Sonny Pinto, he owned a social club. He was killed for something. I can’t remember the details. Oh yeah. I didn’t, I didn’t look at, but yeah, he was, he was murdered. Um. [1:08:54] But yeah he was he was the primary shooter carmine sonny. [1:08:58] Pinto uh dibiase and uh oddly enough nobody on those recordings mentions frank sheeran and uh and gallo’s widow said that there were multiple men all of us were short and appeared to be italian right right she did not mention any six foot two Irishman right now the war kind of like continues on but uh you know uh it eventually blows up uh Albert is a kid is he kid kid blast kid blast gallo he’s he strikes back he sends a gunman and he imports from out of town supposedly from Las Vegas to a restaurant where he thought some uh some of these colombo men were eating they were at they were at the bar that jose neapolitan noodle oh yeah joseph yacobelli and alley boy persico and genaro langella were he thought they were responsible they were all you know in and around this thing they may not have been exact shooters but uh yacobelli certainly was a guy that sent him over there as well was yeah was my understanding from that other uh what was that guy’s name all of a sudden i lost his name again but the one that gave the testimony about uh luparelli luparelli what he’s he named jacobelli is a guy that kind of orchestrated everything that night yeah so anyhow um they uh uh. [1:10:26] He sent this guy over there, and the Yacobili party was sitting at the bar. You know, somebody told him about it there at the bar. He sends his gunman in, and they get seated. The hostess comes by and says, your table’s ready. And four Jewish kosher meat salesmen sat at the bar, and their wives went off to the bathroom, as often will happen. This killer enters, and he starts shooting at the four men seated at the bar, killed Stu and wounded the other two, but they’re the wrong guys. The story is that the Greeks said there was a big uproar, and he claims that the mayor at the time, John Lindsay, sent a Jewish rabbi over to the President Street Social Club of the Gallows and talked to Larry Gallo and said, you know. [1:11:17] We’ve got to stop this stuff and, you know, trying to mediate things, and the authorities never identified the gunman and no informant ever came forward and then jacovelli left new york and persico became the new boss of the colombo family so yeah that was a that was a big you know when you read about mob blunders the neapolitan noodle is always really it’s always one of the first comes up that was uh that was a big damn deal talk about the gang that couldn’t shoot straight i mean they killing those killing those uh those kosher meat salesmen because the uh the guys they were actually trying to shoot had been seated in the restaurant was uh yeah and not good and another then the story that came out of that eventually was the commission steps in and says okay this is done you guys are done unless you’re gonna you’re gonna incur everybody else’s wrath this is done persico allows albert gallo and his crew which got left uh to be part of the genovese family and and he’s in uh i know yeah under vincent and and so his he ends his days as kind of a respected captain of a crew back in his old neighborhood of red book red hook as uh uh of course i could tell he was still alive at age 90 in 2019 so i’m not yeah albert gallo i want to say he just died i think he just died okay. [1:12:42] So the last of the gallo crew so it’s uh i tell you what this is a heck of a book by pete de creep diapolis yeah if you can if you can find it it really goes through it shows their rackets and how they they rip off regular people and how they think and how they act and how they work uh it really the sixth family along with my life from the mafia by uh benny theresa i mean they really show those rackets and how they you know kind of odious these guys are with just going after normal people, But Pete DeGreet, he did a little bit of time, not a lot, came back out, and he was just done. I think he was somehow, he and Joey Gallo had a connection. You know what I mean? Now, you just have a connection with somebody. I think they had some kind of a connection. And he did not have that same connection with Albert. And Albert was the only one left that had a crew. And he just, what he still writes in his book is he just laid back. He kind of hung around the edges. He went to Greece for a while, I believe, and slowly but surely just extracted himself out of that lifestyle. [1:13:51] He collected some money from some old kind of interesting. He said he collected some money from another mob guy who had collected. They had settled a strike for a small manufacturer. You know, when you call the mob in to settle your strikes, you know what that means. Then you pay them money to settle your strike. Like peaceful negotiations, right? [1:14:15] So as far as I could tell, Pete, the Greek, theapolis was never involved in any criminal behavior again. I’m not even sure if he came back from Greece. I think he did, but I’m not sure. What’s funny is he was really riding Joe throughout this, this book. They Joe Gallo talks about writing his book and Joey Gallo wants to write, write Joey Gallo’s book and how careful he’s going to have to be. And then Joey Gallo is dead for a couple of years and Pete, the Greek is all you can’t write a book. You can’t write a book. You can’t write a book. And soon as Gallo is dead, the first thing Pete, the Greek does is write a book. [1:14:54] Well, that in this ends, the story of crazy Joey Gallo. It was kind of a folk hero. Bob Dylan wrote a song about him titled Joey. He kind of cultivated that image As I said of this Gangster folk hero The bandit that everybody wants to see Get away Associated with the art scene in New York Which had never been done before Phew, Dylan said, I got a quote from his, I never really considered him a gangster. I always considered him some sort of a hero, an underdog fighting against the elements. And he was, he was, and you know, we always like an underdog and he was like the gang that couldn’t shoot straight, but he had this little crew was pretty good sized crew, but he always fought against the bosses. Yep. Always fought against the bosses, no matter what, he just would not give up that fight against the bosses. [1:15:46] He just had that tenacity. And, and I do, I do kind of liken him to the, to the Sparrows, you know, just that, that, that’s sort of not going down whether it, and there’s no, I don’t think there was any way. I mean, Joey had the street smarts, but I don’t think he was going to be able to run his own family or anything. I, but you know, he’s, he wasn’t going to go down, you know, those brothers, those Gallo brothers weren’t going to go down. No, they didn’t. Well, I got the last one, the last one did. Yeah. He didn’t go down. He, he, he didn’t win either. He, uh, he was willing to, uh, finally willing to compromise and, and, uh, got all five families after you really. Yeah, really. Joey would never compromise. There was no compromise at Joey Gallo. So, uh, but he is one of the most famous colorful figures of the mafia in the 1950s, I would say. And next to the murder of Albert Anastasia, this is the other most famous murder mob murder ever. [1:16:47] Was a night in umberto’s clam house i even remember this before i got two inch i was working the organized crime unit so i’d read some of the books but but somehow that whole uh murder in umberto’s clam house the way that whole thing went down who joey gallo was that always resonated with me and it always it i always remember that absolutely all right kim i think we’ve done joey gallo i appreciate you helping me with this and

Transcribed - Published: 22 June 2026

In this replay, as a tribute to Camillius "Cam" Robinson, Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins, and co-host Cam dive deep into the wild life and violent death of one of the Mafia’s most unpredictable figures—Crazy Joey Gallo. From Brooklyn’s Red Hook streets to the bloody wars of the Colombo crime family, Joey Gallo built a reputation as a fearless outlaw who challenged Mafia bosses, embraced celebrity culture, and became a folk hero to outsiders and artists alike. Gary and Cam explore Gallo’s transformation from street gangster to media sensation, his fascination with philosophy and existentialism, and his notorious appearances before the McClellan Committee wearing dark sunglasses and mocking authority. The episode examines the Gallo crew’s role in the assassination of Mafia boss Albert Anastasia inside the Park Sheraton barber shop, including insider accounts from Pete “The Greek” Diapoulas and theories involving Carmine Persico and the Patriarca family. Gary and Cam break down how the Gallos evolved into a rogue faction willing to kidnap capos, challenge Joe Profaci, and wage war against the Colombo family itself. The conversation also explores Joey Gallo’s prison years, his relationship with Harlem heroin kingpin Nicky Barnes, and the intellectual awakening that shaped his later persona. The hosts discuss Gallo’s ties to New York celebrities, including Jerry Orbach, Pete Falk, Ben Gazzara, and Neil Simon, along with the cultural impact that inspired Bob Dylan’s famous song “Joey.” Gary and Cam revisit the unsolved shooting of Joe Colombo at the Italian-American Civil Rights League rally and examine competing theories involving Jerome Johnson, the Gambino family, and the Gallos themselves. They also unpack the dramatic final hours of Joey Gallo’s life at Umberto’s Clam House in Little Italy, where Colombo gunmen allegedly tracked him down during his birthday celebration and opened fire in one of the Mafia’s most legendary assassinations. Using firsthand accounts, old newspaper reports, and mob insider testimony, this episode paints a vivid portrait of Joey Gallo’s rise, wars, betrayals, and enduring legend in organized crime history. Buy Cam's book Chicago Swan Song: A Mob Wife's Story the story of Frank Calbrese's wife and living in a Chicago Outfit family Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 22 June 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins examines one of the most puzzling events in organized crime history—the 1971 shooting of Joe Colombo. At the height of his influence, Colombo stood before a crowd of nearly 50,000 at Italian Unity Day in New York City when he was gunned down by Jerome A. Johnson, a man posing as a journalist with a camera. The brazen daylight attack shocked both the public and law enforcement, immediately raising questions about motive, planning, and whether larger forces were at work. Drawing on insights from Chief by Albert A. Seedman, Jenkins breaks down the NYPD's investigation. Despite intense scrutiny, detectives found no clear ties between Johnson and organized crime, a fact that complicated the case from the outset. The episode explores: The chaotic scene at Italian Unity Day and Colombo’s shooting Johnson’s background, including his strange attempts to break into filmmaking The investigative work of Detective John Weber and the efforts to link Johnson to militant or political groups The difficulty in determining whether Johnson acted alone or as part of a larger conspiracy Although authorities ultimately concluded Johnson was a lone gunman, lingering questions remain. Was he truly acting independently, or was he manipulated or used as a disposable asset? Jenkins also examines the broader consequences of the shooting. Colombo’s incapacitation triggered instability within the Colombo crime family, leading to internal conflict and a significant shift in New York’s organized crime landscape. This episode provides a detailed look at an unresolved mystery that continues to spark debate among historians, law enforcement, and mob insiders alike. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 15 June 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins examines one of the most puzzling events in organized crime history—the 1971 shooting of Joe Colombo. At the height of his influence, Colombo stood before a crowd of nearly 50,000 at Italian Unity Day in New York City when he was gunned down by Jerome A. Johnson, a man posing as a journalist with a camera. The brazen daylight attack shocked both the public and law enforcement, immediately raising questions about motive, planning, and whether larger forces were at work.

Transcribed - Published: 15 June 2026

Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with former criminal and prison minister Bill Corum for one of the most unusual conversations ever featured on Gangland Wire. Bill Corum recounts his journey from car theft and prison escapes in the early 1960s to his deep involvement in Kansas City’s criminal underworld in the 1970s and early 1980s. He describes his work around pornography, prostitution, stolen property, cocaine trafficking, and his connections to notorious Kansas City underworld figures. Gary and Bill discuss legendary Kansas City mob fence Sol Landi and his murder by assassins sent by the mob, the River Quay era, Junior Bradley, corrupt influences in local politics and the courts, and the explosive cocaine culture that swept through Kansas City during the 1980s. Bill also shares stories involving Weld Wheels founder Kenny Weld, cocaine trafficking operations, and the dangerous atmosphere surrounding organized crime in Kansas City. The conversation dives into: Bill’s prison escape and stolen car career The prostitution business in Independence, Missouri Mob-connected fences and stolen property rings Cocaine trafficking in Kansas City during the early 1980s The murder of Saul Landy River Quay nightlife and mob influence Corrupt officials and criminal networks Kansas City organized crime personalities Prison life and criminal culture Bill Corum’s dramatic religious conversion in 1983 His decades-long prison ministry work across America Bill also explains how he transformed his life after addiction, violence, and years in the criminal world, eventually dedicating his life to prison outreach and ministry programs throughout the United States. You can learn more about Bill Corum and his book at either The Ultimate Pardon or Bill Corum Official Website If you’re interested in true crime, mafia history, and real law enforcement stories, this is an episode you don’t want to miss. Subscribe for more mafia history and true crime stories every week. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. [00:00:00] hey, all you wiretappers. Gary Jenkins here, retired Kansas City police detective in the intelligence unit. Turned podcaster and author and documentary filmmaker. If you want to see any of my stuff, go to my website and look in the show notes or look in the I think the donate page. Of course, if you’re in the donate page, you might want to hit the donate button. We always use a little, can use a little support. And I have a guy that I’d heard of and I’d seen on YouTube and I have mu- we have mutual friends, but I had never actually met him. And I, so I g- I… Some people he knows asked me to be on their show. And so I was on their show, and Bill was on that show at the same time. So we started talking. We had lunch and we had all these… We were running in the same circles, but separate circles that then overlapped every once in a while. He was on one side of the law and I was on the other. So Bill Corum. Welcome, Bill. Thank you, Gary. Thank you so much. And we were running in opposite… We were running real close- … but I was careful. When [00:01:00] I got out of prison, it- You were. When I got out of prison in 1964, I had two goals. Yeah. Never go back, and never get caught. And I started breaking the law the day I got out of prison, and I broke the law for almost 19 years and didn’t get caught. I got caught a couple times at little things, and I got… I hired a high-powered criminal attorney that came out of Alex Peebles’ office who’s now a judge. I won’t even mention his name. He’s now a judge. I think I told you who it was. But and Alex got me out of a couple deals way back when. But little things. And I was still, doing everything. And I went for almost 19 years and didn’t get caught. Unlike many of my friends, I’ve been in prison ministry for 40 years now, and I run around with a lot of guys that did a lot of time. 25 years, 40 years. Li- they had double life without parole, now they’re out But I never got caught. Yeah. And I was speaking at a women’s prison just recently, and I was talking to the women, and I was telling that story, and I said, “I got out and I [00:02:00] went for 19 years.” She said, “You must have been awful smart.” I said I wa- I wasn’t too smart or I wouldn’t have been doing that stuff.” But I did know ways and one thing was ’cause I didn’t talk to people. I didn’t have a lot of… Kinda like the trench coat robbers. They robbed banks for 15 years- Yeah … and never got caught because they didn’t email, text, phone calls, none of that. Yeah. They would, they would- And they moved away too. Oh, yeah. Kinda moved away from their home territory, so they- Yeah y- they weren’t having their buddies come up to them say, “Hey, what are you doing? Where you been?” “I haven’t seen you for a while.” And then they turn around and tell some cop that they know, “Hey, I can’t remember the guy’s name now. Billy Kirkpatrick. Billy Kirkpatrick. He’s been out of town. He just got back.” And, you know- Yeah … then they put… Suddenly they get this notice about these bank robbers somewhere else. They… He didn’t do that. He stayed- … out of town. So Bill, let’s- No, that was me. Go ahead. Go, let’s go back and start you from the beginning. Introduce to who you are to my guys, ’cause they don’t know you. I didn’t know you, ’cause you were such a low profile in this world. You said you got out of prison. Why don’t we [00:03:00] start with that? Where, what were you in the joint for originally? I was originally in there for Dyer Act, which is, in the feds, that’s interstate transportation- Yeah of stolen motor vehicles. I was in the Marine Corps. I went AWOL. I got caught. I went back. I got back AWOL again. I went back. They put me on restrictions, said I couldn’t leave the base. I was at that point in my life where nobody could tell me what to do. And so I’s “I’m leaving the base,” and I left and I think I stole 10, 12 cars while I was out. And then I got put in the… When I got back the next time, they put me in the brig, and I escaped from the brig. And and I stole a car off the base back in tho- in the ’60s, early ’60s, ’62, 3. People left their keys in their car. Yeah. And I went out. I was in the parachute locker painting. When the guard came in to check on me, I hit him in the back of the head with a full bucket of paint, a full gallon of paint, and I went out the window and I got a car, and I actually had a guy with me. He said, “I’m going with you.” And so we got in the car, and when we got to [00:04:00] the gate, I said, “Now, if that guard steps out at the gate, I’m running over him.” And he’s “No, don’t do…” I said “Just shut up. I’m running over him.” And I got to the gate, and the guard stepped out and saluted me. And I’m like, “What in the world?” I drove into town, run out of gas, Gary. Got out and stole… I don’t know how I remember this. I stole a ’62 maroon Bonneville. And when I was walking away from the car, my buddy looked back and started laughing. I said, “What are you laughing about?” He said, “I see why they saluted us. That car had a colonel sticker on the bumper.” So then I stole that car, that Bonneville, drove into Mississippi. Because I always ask guys in prisons, “How many of you know when you escape from prison you need some different clothes?” Yeah. So I drove into a little town called Leland, Mississippi, and I was breaking in a clothing store to get me some clothes. It was 11:00 at night, and I looked down, I was climbing up on some boxes to get to the roof to go in the skylight, ’cause they had analog alarms, they were easy to beat. [00:05:00] And I looked down and I saw a flashlight coming down the alley. So I dropped down, ran the other way, and I turned the corner and ran into the biggest, fattest Mississippi sheriff you ever seen. And he had a gun, he had a gun about this long. And he stuck it right here, and he goes, “Where are you going, boy?” And I said, “With you, sir.” That’s what I said. And that was the end of the Marine Corps. So now I’ve taken a car across the state line, and the feds step in. And I went to… I got a six-year sentence. I got what they call a zip six. And back then, before ’86, now in ’86 they passed it to 85%. Yeah. But prior to 80- prior to ’86, you could get out of the feds at one-third of your sentence. And so I got this six-year sentence. I got out in two years, and when I got out, I said, “I’m never getting caught again. I’m never going back to prison.” And I went for ni- and I just started right then. And everything from then on was like, I got involved with pornography. I was promoting [00:06:00] pornography and prostitution. There’s a story in my book about me being a… I was a bodyguard and a chauffeur for a lady that had a cat house over in Independence. You know where Inglewood was in Independence? And guys- You know where- … In- Independence is a suburb of Kansas City, but it’s like whole, decently large city for a suburb- Yeah … but it’s connected to it. Yeah. That’s where Harry Truman was from- That’s right … and retired back to. Yeah. So y- you were over there probably on the east side of Independence. Inglewood’s kinda closer to Kansas City, over there- Yes … by Dogpatch, in what we call Dogpatch. That’s- The- … kinda totally lawless area. And so there was a guy there that I was friends with that had a record store. He was the first guy in Kan- his name was Tony Marino. He’s in my book. He’s dead now. He was the first guy ever in Kansas City to sell paraphernalia in a record store. And he was making 25,000 a month- Wow … back in the… Yeah, when it started. That was a lot of money. And he, right next to him was a [00:07:00] store, it’s still there. I go by it all the time, ’cause we eat at the Englewood Cafe all the time. It’s the only one on that little s- first strip there that’s got steps going up. And a lady up there had a cathouse for 12 years, prostitutes. And her main customers were executives from Ford Motor Company- … from General Motors, and from Hallmark Cards. And the reason, Gary, was because she knew if she had executives, they weren’t gonna talk. Yeah. And she had beautiful women. She didn’t have ladies like up on Main and Troost and Prospect. Yeah. The- these women had all their teeth, and they were- … and they were good-looking. Yeah. And so the first guy, a- actually, who got me the job was Sal Rello, that o- that owned he owned that deluxe deli down on 430, where the Erotic City is now. Oh, yeah. He owned that- Yeah … he owned that bar. Heard about him, yeah. And I told him for years, I said, “You need to open an adult bookstore here,” because Gary, he was the only bar in Kansas City, the only bar [00:08:00] in Kansas City that was open on Election Day. You know why? ‘Cause he was in the county. He was in the county. He wasn’t in- Wasn’t in the city, yeah … he wasn’t in the city. And he was open on Election Day. And I told him, I said, “Man, if you’d open an adult bookstore, you could make a lot of money.” He never did, of course. Yeah. And then they put Erotic City in there, and it went good for a few years and stuff, yeah. But so he’s the one that told me about her. I went to interview with her, and she said, “I just have one question. Do you carry a gun?” I said, “No, ma’am, I carry two guns.” And she said, “You’re hired.” And so G- Gary, I picked her up every day on the Plaza. She lived in a $2,000 a month apartment on the Plaza in 1976. Yeah. That was a lot of money. That’s five today. And, yeah, and I took her to get her facial every Tuesday. I took her to the beauty shop every Thursday, and read about her in my book. She was 80 years old. The name of that chapter in my book is 80-Year-Old Hooker. She was 80, 80 years old, and she [00:09:00] ran it like a business. I had, I, she opened at 9:00 in the morning and closed at 5:00 at night, and ran it just five days a week, just like a business. And I wouldn’t be surprised she didn’t pay taxes. She was legit, man. Yeah. And I knew you can’t operate something like that for 12 years in Independence, Missouri, and not have the police know about it. No, they knew about it. Oh, yeah. It’s that upper echelon, they were, they just steered people away from each other. Oh, yeah. Don’t worry about that. Oh, yeah. That’s right. So that was- So Bill, y- you, you moved from that- Into the drug business now, how did you, how’d you even get started in that? Where like 1960s, ’60, by the late ’60s, drugs are starting to, become more popular and there becomes a real market for it that’s among- Yeah a much larger constituency than ever before. So now, how did you- I re- … move into that? I, oh, I really, for years and years, Gary, years, I didn’t have a partner [00:10:00] because I knew if I had to run, I didn’t want somebody… I didn’t know if my partner would tell on me, so I did everything by myself. I did one thing one time and I had to have a partner, and I stole a computer out of a crane at General Motors down in Leeds. And I, and my fence, the chapter in my book, They Killed My Fence, that was Saul Andy. Yeah. And when Saul got killed, like they killed my fence, because anything I took to Saul, he’d buy it. Didn’t matter if it was guns or it didn’t matter what it was. And I didn’t never keep anything except cash. If I had money, I’d keep it, but I’d never keep anything. I didn’t keep diamond rings or… I got rid of all that stuff, ’cause I never wanted anything to be able to identify me and tie me to a crime. And Saul, when he got killed, of course, then I started dealing with another guy. But Saul was taking all that and selling it to Junior Bradley, most of it, the stuff that Junior- And, and- … would be interested in. And guys- But, J- Junior Bradley, I gotta explain who Junior Bradley was. Junior Bradley was the mob fence in Kansas City. He was probably the biggest fence in Kansas City I got a [00:11:00] feeling. He, and what he started doing was trading Dilaudid especially for stolen property, and he had a little deli right across from police headquarters and City Hall, and everybody knew Junior. Everybody loved Junior. Everybody liked Junior. He’s always doing favors for people. If you went in the penitentiary, you’d go talk to Junior and say, “Okay, what, what’s gonna happen when I get here? Can you help me out?” And he’ll say, “I’ll make some calls.” Or I, we had, we overheard him on a wiretap once saying- a, a father called him and said, my son’s got to report up here to Leavenworth to the camp.” He said, “Okay, I’ll take care of it. I’ll be somebody there to meet him there.” And I’ve had many other reports but Junior was the main mob fence. So go ahead- Yeah … and we’ll talk what you were dealing with- Yeah Junior Bradley. Yeah be- let’s back up. So you asked me about how I got into drugs. So all those years when I was married, I didn’t drink and I didn’t do drugs. I thought if you did dope, you were a d- I thought that’s why they call it dope, ’cause you were a dope if you did it. Yeah. So I didn’t do it, and I didn’t drink because I knew I had to always be able to think and make [00:12:00] decisions and… ‘Cause I cheated on my wife every day for 10 years, and I did crime every day for 10 years, and she never knew it till I wrote this book. And I gave her the first book actually. And so- When I got divorced and started smoking pot and doing stuff, hanging out with those people, and I started smoking weed, then the first time I bought an ounce of weed it was 40 bucks. And I’m like, “Okay, how much is how much is more if you buy more? You can buy a half pound for this or you can buy…” So I said then I’ll… Give me a half a pound and I’m gonna sell,” yeah. So I started buying pounds and selling ounces, and man, all of a sudden I’m, now I’m smoking free and I’m making some money. Yeah. And then I started sell- And by the time I ended, even when I was selling cocaine, I was selling 100 pounds of pot a week. I had one guy that would buy 100 pounds of pot from me every week. Yeah. And I’d just take him 100 pounds and he’d just bring my… Every day he’d stop by my house [00:13:00] with sacks of money, and that was, the way I got started in the drug world then. And everything. It was from pot, it was, meth. We called it crank back then, not meth. And then I never did get real addicted to crank, but I got real addicted to cocaine. And of course, I was doing a drug class the other day. I teach a drug class, my wife and I, addictions class at our church. And I said, when I started, I was only gonna sell it and not do it.” And because one guy said I was only gonna do it and never sell it.” And I said, “No, not me. I was gonna sell it and never do it.” But that didn’t last very long. And once you start doing it you’re in there, and, Yeah, really … and then, when I got arrested September 5th of ’82 the guy that I beat up I put 100 stitches in the back of his head with a ball bat, and it was in an active enforcement really. But he turned states. He’s the one, when Kenny… You remember Kenny Weld? I remember the name. Was you still on the force when Kenny got busted in ’83? [00:14:00] Yeah. ’80- Yeah, I would’ve been. Okay. So- I have some vague memory, I don’t remember the, all the details. At the time it was the biggest drug bust, it was the biggest just drug bust in, I know in Kansas City, maybe. They caught him out there in Blue Springs with 29 pounds of cocaine, and we were selling- Yeah … cocaine to the people that were selling cocaine to Kenny. And so the guy that I beat up gave a 20-page, which is like reading a book, 20 typewritten pages. Yeah. 20 typewritten pages, and he named every name involved in the circle that he knew, and that implicated us as being some of the leading cocaine dealers in Kansas City. Yeah. Now, when I go speak in churches and a pastor gets up and says, “Folks, today we’ve got the biggest cocaine dealer that ever lived.” I get up and say, “You know what? I don’t mean to correct your pastor.” But I was implicated as being one of the leading cocaine- I was not the leading cocaine dealer. There was a lot of people bigger than me. But that’s that’s how it all started and [00:15:00] of course my case, I never did… the drugs never came in. The lawyers that I had, because when I got busted it was on a Sunday, and that’s part of my story. I always ask inmates, “How many of you have been arrested on a weekend?” And every hand goes up. Yeah. And I say, and then I say, “What happens when you get arrested on a weekend?” They all yell, “Nothing.” ‘Cause you’re not going anywhere till Monday morning, at the very least. I got arrested 2:00 Sunday afternoon. By that time, Gary, I had three goals. When I was about 30, I got nicknamed by one of the key mafia figures Crazy Bill, ’cause I did some crazy things. Like I ran through a bar. You know where the old Club Royal was on Main? Oh yeah. There was a bar right ac- I’ve drunk there many times. Okay. There was a bar across the street that I had a girlfriend working in, and we got in a fight, and I was gonna cut the bar in half with a chainsaw. And I had my buddy drop me at the back parking lot. I fired the chainsaw up, I opened the door, and when the door… When I stepped inside, the door [00:16:00] closed with the closer, and the dar- the bar was totally dark. It was not a bar where you could even buy a bag of potato chips. It was strictly alcohol. And when you get- Yeah … in a bar like that, they’re dark. And that door shut, and I thought, “I’m gonna bend over and start cutting this bar, and somebody just shoot me in the back.” So I just wa- I just walked through the bar with the chainsaw running and went out the front door, and Kenny picked me up in the front, and off we went. And so because of that, I got nicknamed Crazy Bill. Yeah. By 30 years old, I had three goals: money, power, and influence. Now, I told you as we were selling a lot of cocaine. So I stayed in $500 a night hotels. I ride in limousines. I bought $20,000 worth of cocaine for a one-night party. So I had money, and I had enough power to make a phone call and have somebody killed, so I had power. And I had enough influence that when I got arrested Sunday afternoon, now I love telling this to a police officer. I was on a show in Texas with a cop, and we called it the Con and the Cop. [00:17:00] But I love telling this story. I got arrested September 5th. 2:00, 2:00 PM is when they booked us into the jail, and I made a phone call back to Kansas City to somebody who was in politics, and I said, “You know who to call.” And that person called the judge we were selling cocaine to. And I ask this question in prisons, “How many of you know when you’re selling cocaine to a judge, he don’t want you in jail?” And I walked out of that jail, Gary, at 1:30 Monday morning. Wow. I got arrest- less than 12 hours after I got arrested on a weekend. And when I walked out of that jail, I said, “Bill Corum, you’ve arrived. You got money.” “You got power, and you got influence.” But the one thing I didn’t have was peace. Yeah. I didn’t have any peace, man. No peace. Yeah. If I was in a restaurant eating and a cop walked in, I’d put money on the table and go out the door. If I saw a UPS driver, I got nervous ’cause he had a uniform on. I didn’t have any peace. And then after I became a Christian, I was reading in the Bible [00:18:00] one day, and it said, “A wicked man runs when no one’s chasing him.” And I went, “Oh my gosh, I left a lot of steak dinners sitting on the table.” And wasn’t anybody chasing you. Nobody. That cop didn’t even know I was in there. He probably didn’t even know who I was. Really? He just come in… He just came in there to eat, and I thought he was after me. So Bill, I always like to go into the, the nuts and bolts of some of these things. And we kinda left one thing hanging, is the Saul Landy story. Now guys, Saul Landy was a big sports bettor. And Saul Landy had a, wasn’t it a metal- Square Deal Junk- Square Deal Junkyard. Square… He had a junkyard. Square Deal. He bought a lot of scrap metal and dealt in scrap metal, but he also would buy most anything from, from- Yeah … thieves, from boosters- Yeah … and burglars and people like that. That’s where Bill met him. But he’s a huge sports gambler, and they thought he might testify against our boss, Nick Civella, because he had been allowed to bet down at The Trap, down with Frankie Tusa, who was the underling [00:19:00] that handled all the sports gambling for Nick Civella. Isn’t that right? Isn’t that the way that went down? Oh, yeah, and Bobby Maroon was running The Trap at the time. And- yeah … so do you remember the guy that, that paid for his murder? Remember that guy, Johnny Franks, Johnny Frank Avella? That’s what they said, yep. Yeah. Yep. He had, he had- That’s what they said. He had some connections. But he got… But Johnny Franks got the order from somebody else. Yeah. Yeah … the bug, the buck stopped with Johnny Franks now, didn’t it? Yes. ‘Cause he hired another guy, who then he hired a Black guy, which was- That’s right … truly unusual. Who then- That’s right … hired a couple of young Black street kids and that was even more unusual, and they killed this Saul Landy and his wife. So they keep a f- And then they sang and then they sang like The Temptations. Exactly, yeah. That, and that’s that w- some claim that Johnny Franks did that just on his own, trying to impress Nick Civella. Some people say that somebody else told him to do it. I don’t… It never, he never talked, so it never came about. Yeah. [00:20:00] Did you ever hear anything about that? I never heard anything except what you just said, that he- Okay … he never talked, and Nick, Nick never got convicted. He never- Yeah … but here’s the thing that, what you said. The guys that they hired to do it, because back in those days as y- you’d go to… i’d go to the electric chair before somebody, before I’d tell on somebody. Yeah. I’m not gonna tell on anybody. Go ahead and put me in the gas chamber, I’m not telling on nobody. But those guys would, they’d sing like The Temptations. They weren’t gonna, they- Yeah … they wouldn’t- Those street kids If they offered them a day in jail, they wouldn’t take it. If you’ll tell us, we won’t, we’re only gonna put you in jail for a week if you’ll tell. Yeah. They wouldn’t tell. So how did that work with you and Saul Landy? You weren’t a sports bettor you didn’t have anything to do with that. You were a thief. Yeah, and I don’t know- And- I honestly, you know what? Gary, I don’t remember who even told me to go to Saul with stolen merchandise, ’cause I was hitting a lot of construction jobs back then. [00:21:00] Ah. I worked construction, and I was in the union, and I was stealing off these jobs all the time. Big- Ah, yeah … big amounts of stuff. Like they’d start a brand-new job, and they’d have all brand-new tools, and I’d go over there and take everything they had. And then I’d take it all to Saul. And matter of fact, one time I did a job over in, it was a eight-story high-rise over in Kansas City, Kansas, down around Argentine, in the Argentine area. And I was on the job, I was working on the job, and we just started. And we had all this trailer, a whole trailer load of tools. And I went over and got all the tools, and the last thing I took out was the cutting torch. I cut the lock off the door, ’cause I had a key to get in. And so when I got to work the next morning, I had everything in my truck. I had a tonneau cover over my truck and had all these tools in the back of my truck, and parked in the parking lot. I got there and I called Johnny Myers, who was running the job, and Johnny’s been dead for years. I said, “Hey, Johnny, somebody hit our job last night.” He’s “What?” I said, “Yeah, they cut the lock off. They got everything.” [00:22:00] And he said call the police and I’ll be out there in just a few minutes.” And so the cops come, couple detectives and he was telling what they, what was going on. I’m standing there listening to the whole thing. And there was a generator, a big generator, and I was real strong back then, Gary. I was 6’3″ and weighed 275 and I carried this generator down the steps and this… and Johnny said, or the cop said that, how much that generator weigh?” And he told him, and he said it had to be at least two guys, if not three. But no, no one guy could carry that down them steps.” And Johnny turned around and he said, “Except Superman,” ’cause that’s what they called me on the job. And they laughed, and he laughed, and I laughed. Yeah. And then that night after I got off work, I took it all down to Square Deal and sold it all to Saul. Yeah. Interesting. So- All right. Thanks so much … and I did that stuff all, yeah, I did that stuff all the time. But I honestly do not remember who introduced me to Saul Landy. Yeah. But I know that for years and years we were buddies. And when I first met him, I used a, I had an alias that I always went by. I had two a- two aliases. One of them was a guy I [00:23:00] was in prison with that was from East St. Louis, and I knew everything about him, ’cause we were real good friends. I knew his middle name, I knew his mom and dad’s name. I knew everything about him, so I’d use his name. So if anybody ever asked me a question, I knew. The other guy was a cousin of mine that I hadn’t seen for y- I used his name, ’cause I knew everything about him. So what, the, when I first met my wife, we went to a dance one night. We weren’t married yet, and we were walking up the steps, and this guy walking down said, “Hey, Jim. How you doing, Jim?” And I said, “Good.” We got in, sat down. My wife looked at me and she said, “I thought your name was Bill.” I s- said, “It is. It is Bill.” I said, “He probably just had me mixed up with somebody else.” ‘Cause there was a lot of people in the inner circles, yeah. So when I met Saul Andy, something inside of me told me to… Because I met Saul, and I told him my name was Jim Gardner. Yeah. And he’s we did a couple deals, and then something inside of me told me to b- be honest with Saul. And so I sat him down one day, I said, “I wanna tell you something. I use that name as an alias. My [00:24:00] real name is Bill Corum,” and da. And I was so glad I did, because later I would be in the River Key in a restaurant or a bar with Saul, and some of the guys were in there, and I thought if I’d have used the… If he’d introduced me as Jim Gardner- Yeah … and then later they find out who I am, I might not be here. Yeah. You know what I mean? You might- So I- They might think you’re undercover cop or a- Exactly. Exactly. So I just- Informant or something, yeah … it, a- and that, I think that’s in my book. I told that story because I just, I felt like being upfront with him, and I, because I trusted him, yeah. I actually, in, in the book I think I said if Nick Civella trusted him, I thought I could trust him. Yeah. But a- apparently, apparently- Bet he didn’t trust him all that much … no. Yeah. Because right there, out there on Pennsylvania, or let’s see, where’d they… They lived right off 75th, right behind the what was that restaurant on 75th? The Italian place? Yeah … I starts with a G, I think. Yeah, I know. Just north of Ward Parkway Shopping Center. Yeah. Yeah. I know the neighborhood, yeah. Oh, Cat- was it Cat? [00:25:00] No. C- it doesn’t matter. But he lived right down that str- he lived on Washington. Yeah. Right there. Yeah. About 77th or 8th and Washington, in Washington, yeah. I remember that. Yeah. But that’s how I met Saul. And what, and guys, what those guys did that night, they tried to make it look like a home invasion robbery, but ended up killing him and his w- and I think they raped his wife too. But, They didn’t kill her. They left her alive they, they left her alive. But- Yeah … they really m- tried to make it look like a home invasion robbery, not a hit, which was, at least they were that smart. They just weren’t- Yeah … couldn’t keep their mouth shut, and they couldn’t, weren’t smart enough to not tell their friends, so they got caught. Good, good thing there wasn’t no Facebook back then, Gary. Yeah, it’s crazy. It’s crazy. Crazy world you live in, so- these kids- Bill … yeah. What happened? What happened? You had all this going. You had money, power, influence. Yeah, I- You caught a cocaine case. Now the thing about that cocaine case, that you said, I thought you said Wells. It’s Kenny Weld, isn’t it? The race car driver? W-E-L-D. Kenny Weld. W-E-L-D. Yeah. He was a race [00:26:00] car driver at that time. I, I- Kinda well-known, and he had a whole set of… He had a big company that sold wheels … Weld Wheels … fancy wheels. He was really doing well, and then he got involved with a b- huge, big cocaine thing. I didn’t know, remember you were part of that, but I remember that. A multi-million dollar- Yeah … wheel business. Yeah. I still am a big… I was a dirt track guy. I grew up on dirt. Yeah. I love dirt. I actually took his brother, Greg, who actually owned the company, I took Greg to his first… the first race that Greg ever raced in, I drove him to the races. And then Kenny and I and Greg, and they won the Knoxville Nationals. Greg raced in the Indianapolis 500 four times. Yeah. They were a big name in the country, the Welds. And making millions of dollars, Gary. Even back then, they were making millions of dollars. Yeah. And then Kenny got caught up in the cocaine and started messing with it, and next thing you know… he was making a lot of money in the cocaine too, but- Yeah … he got caught with 29 pounds, which was a large amount. But that statement that guy [00:27:00] made on me, ’cause I always felt guilty because Kenny got busted because the statement that he made, he named Kenny Weld in that statement, and it wasn’t long after that they arrested Kenny. But I’m sure they were already watching him, for sure. But then I, and I don’t know, Kenny got eight year, Kenny got 25 years. He went to Sandstone first up in Minnesota. Yeah. And he only did 52 months, so I’m not sure, because back then a third would’ve been eight, eight and a half years or something, right? Yeah. And he only did 52 months, so I don’t know how that, maybe it was money or whatever. I don’t know. Yeah. But he turned his life around in prison, but then what’s the sad deal, when I turned my life around, I tried to get in touch with Kenny Weld, and he wouldn’t talk to me. He- Yeah … he was avoid- I think he was afraid that I was gonna come after him because the guy I beat up was the guy that was… We were all involved in the cocaine world together. Joker John, I don’t know if you knew who Joker John Agrusa was. I [00:28:00] don’t remember that n- I don’t remember that name now. Was he- They had a bar out on, they had a bar on, out on 23rd Street. No, I don’t, I don’t- Joker John’s. John, his last name was Agrusa. He had a brother- Agrusa, yeah … named Nick Agrus. New- Nick Agrusa’s brother. Yeah, I co- do kinda remember that. He went down- Yeah … with that whole thing. See, I was- That was ’83. I was I was off into something else during those years. Okay. No- That was early in the coke, crack cocaine thing … no, John, w- after I beat up Pink Mike, John Agrusa left town. He moved to Arizona, ’cause he was scared of me. A l- a lot of people- ’cause I was crazy. I did some crazy things, and people were scared. And so when I got arrested on that deal, he left town. He went to Arizona. And then Kenny got busted, Kenny Weld. And the, some of the people in that… My dad read that 20-page statement, and my dad said… And my dad was an old guy. He was born in 1909, but he read that statement, and he said, “This guy’s worth, life ain’t worth a nickel, is it?” And I [00:29:00] said, “No.” ‘Cause the guy that wrote the statement. Then I got arrest- you knew Jim Smart was a judge? Yeah, I remember the name. I didn’t know him. Okay. Jim… back then, Jim was a lawyer, and then later became appellate court judge. Yeah. And he’s retired now, but a real good friend of mine. So when I, that happened, I got… My case ended in May of ’84. Started September 5th of ’82, and ended in May of ’84. And in June of ’85, 13 months later, I got sued by the guy I beat up. Me and the other couple guy. One of the guys that was with me is dead, Charlie Elmer. I don’t know if you ever heard that name, but he was a- No, don’t know that name … cocaine dealer. But anyway I was just gonna forget about it, and I showed that to my dad, that indict- or not indictment, the notice that I need to appear in court. Statement. Yeah. Yeah, and my dad s- no, not the statement, when he sued me. [00:30:00] Oh, the oh, okay. Then they filed charges. Yeah, the counter-suit. And I showed it to my dad one day and I wasn’t even gonna go. I said, “Oh, God will take care of it.” And my dad read it, and he’s “Bill, you gotta get a lawyer.” Yeah. You’re being charged, and so I went and got a lawyer, and I got Jim Smart. And and Jim tried to go and do a deposition on that guy, on Pink Mike. Could never find him. Ah. And I di- I don’t know, I honestly don’t know. I know I didn’t have nothing to do with… But nobody’s ever been able to find him. But I’m suspecting, ’cause my dad said when he read that 20 pa- he said his life isn’t worth a nickel. Because he named judge in there, a judge in there. He named Kenny Weld in there. He named a lot of other big-name guys, and he’s disappeared, so nobody know. I haven’t seen him since the day in court in 1982. So who knows where he’s at. Yeah. If he’s around. I don’t know. But- Interesting. What did you finally cop? Did you have a full trial, or did you go ahead and cop a plea in the end? That’s interesting you’d [00:31:00] ask because when we first, when we got out of jail at 1:30 Monday morning, the 3rd of the 6th of September, he wal- the lawyer came and walked us out with, we… we had left, we were staying in the Embassy Suites downtown. You know where that was at? Oh, yeah. It was 500 bucks a night, and we had left two s- two s- brief- briefcases there with one had cocaine in it uncut, and the other one had about $60,000 in it. And so we went down. We actually called… he’s dead now, so I can tell you who it was. Jerry Schanzer that owned Napoleon Bakery. And Jerry was a big… i’m surprised that you didn’t, you talk about bookmakers. Jerry was a big bookmaker. Yeah. Exactly. And Schanzer- I remember him, yeah … Schanzer owned Mother’s down on 18th and Baltimore. Not Mother’s. Granny’s. Granny’s, yeah. He owned Granny’s at 18th and Baltimore. Yeah, a lot of mob guys used- And then he- … to go down there and eat. Oh, every time I went in there I saw [00:32:00] somebody. Yeah. And then later he opened up one over in Mission shopping center there on Mission Road. And then they then they ended up opening up Napoleon, him and his brother Larry. And then they’re both dead now. But we, this is how much we trusted Jerry. We told Jerry, “Go…” We called Jerry from the jail and said, “Go down to the Embassy and get our, get a briefcase.” And Jerry went down and he drove halfway to Warrensburg and ha- something told him to open it- Oh, wow … and he opened the one, he opened the one that had the cocaine in it. Oh, shit. And he called us and said, “I got the wrong briefcase.” And it… No, he said, “I can’t come and get you with this.” And so he went back to the Embassy and got the right one. Came down, and we made bond that night. Then the next morning was… Okay, that was we got busted on Sunday the 5th. Monday we got out. The lawyer [00:33:00] said, Mike, I don’t know if you ever knew Mike and what was his dad’s name? The Fi- it was Fitzgerald and Fitzgerald was the name of the firm in, down in Warrensburg. Warensburg, yeah. I don’t know them. Yeah. And Mike and Charlie Fitzgerald. So ’cause I called People’s Office and said, “Hey, this happened.” And they said, “Stick with those guys. Those guys are the best in the county. They know the county. They know the prosecutor, the judges and everything. Stick with them.” So we went in. He told us, “Don’t come in tomorrow morning,” ’cause it was 1:30 in the morning Monday morning. He said, “Come and see me Wednesday.” Yeah. And so we went… no, he said, “Come and see me Tuesday,” ’cause that was 1:30 in the morning. And we walked in there that morning and he said, “Come and see me tomorrow morning, Tuesday morning.” And bring me $10,000 apiece. And I wish I had a video of it, because it can be on America’s Funniest Home Videos. I walked into his office with a white bank bag and dumped out $30,000 on his desk in cash, and he opened [00:34:00] his drawer like this and scooped it into the drawer. And I said, “Mike, there’s a lot more where that came from.” He said, “Bill, I can’t. It’s… I gotta do everything legitimately.” Yeah. And I said, “Okay.” So the first meeting, his dad was in there and he was in there, and the three of us, and he said, “Guys, Dad and I have talked, and you guys might wanna think about getting separate attorneys.” And I said, “For what?” He said, “Because if one of you take a plea.” Yeah. I almost jumped over the desk. I said, “There’ll be no plea. There will be no plea. We’re not guilty. We’re not gonna admit we’re guilty. They can send us to the electric chair. We didn’t do it.” Now, Gary, they took us out of the house at 2:00 on Sunday afternoon in broad daylight. First, they s- we sent the guy out the back. He was totally naked when we got there. He was laying in bed. He’d been doing Dilaudids and Quaaludes all night, and he was [00:35:00] blood from the crown of his head to the soles of his feet. His whole back was red. We walked him out the door in- totally naked in front of the whole world and told him, “Go out there and tell them there’s nobody else in the house.” We were so jacked up. And here’s the thing, I have to tell you this. All those years that I got away with stuff is because I was smart, and now I’m snow blind. There was a song years ago by Styx called Snow Blind- Yeah … and it’s about cocaine. It’s about… And I’d been up for 86 hours when we went down to Holden. I had not- Okay … closed my eyes for 86 hours, so I was in m- I wasn’t in my right mind. Anyway, that was… So when we we said, “No plea bargain. There’ll be no plea bargains.” And for seven months… No, I’m sorry, for four months. That was October, November, December, January, February, March, April. No, seven months. For seven months. For seven months [00:36:00] we went to court multiple times. The whole police department, I don’t know if we can- I guess we’ll say it, because it’s done. It’s history. But I had a, I had two grocery sacks, the old brown grocery sacks on the couch that I’d inventoried. I had $62,000 in cash. I had… Because it was in envelopes, and I- they were $10,000. I was throwing them in there. 62,000 in cash, about four pounds of pot, three gallon Ziploc bags full of precious jewels. Er emeralds, rubies, and stuff like that. Some hash- a 12-gauge shotgun. I think that was all. Maybe maybe it… Whatever. When they, when… The first time we ever went to court and my partner had, the one that’s dead, Charlie, he had a leather Gucci bag that we always had with us, and it had four or five grams of cocaine in it. He took his diamond rings off, put them in there. His watch, he had a Rolex [00:37:00] watch he put in there, and about 3,000 in cash. That was in the car. That was never mentioned in court. No guns were ever mentioned in court. No guns were ever mentioned in court. I had a brand new, I had a brand new fif- not- model 59 nine millimeter. That was never mentioned in court. That 12-gauge shotgun was never mentioned in court. They said that they found a couple envelopes of cash, and they found a gram. Now, there was about, I think there was about probably a half a, maybe eight, eight grams or no more than that. It was ounces. Four or five ounces of cocaine. Oh, yeah. They said they found one, they said they found one gram of a, approximately one gram of a substance believed to be cocaine. Yeah. And my lawyer said… And they said they’d send it to Jeff City for analysis. And my lawyer said, “And what were the analysis of that?” They said they haven’t come [00:38:00] back yet. This is two months after they arrested us. They did- And they found approximately one gram, and there was ounces of cocaine in there. They found a couple envelopes with approximately $2,000 in cash. There was $62,000. The car I was driving, so when I got arrested, I had the keys in my pocket. So when they booked us into jail, when we walked out at 1:30 Monday morning, they gave us back our property. I had the keys in my pocket. So the car’s… Now, this is a brand new ’80, this was a ’82. This was an ’81 Trans Am. The car’s in Holden. The police chi- And they said they were gonna confiscate the car because it had Kansas tags on it, that they wanted to go through the car da. The police chief changed the ignition and was driving that car for his personal car. It cost my buddy, because it was a friend of mine, T- Ronnie M- Ron McGee, it was his car. It cost him $10,000 and an attorney to get his car back from them. So bottom line, every time we [00:39:00] went to court, several ti- my lawyer would say, “I’d like to call Officer Gary Jenkins up.” Gary Jenkins is not on the force anymore. He moved to Arizona.” “I’d like to call so-and-so up next time we go in.” He’s not here anymore. He moved to wherever.” So all the money and all the guns and all the drugs, they split it up and no, nobody ever… So the thing was so dirty. So what happens is we’d been going to court for that seven months, And then I become a Christian. I walk into his offi- and we’re adamant, we’re not plea bargain. We don’t want separate lawyers. We want you two guys to represent us. We’re gonna beat this thing. And, oh, and I told, because when that guy gave that 20-page statement after he got out of the hospital, this was a month later or something, he called us all in. We went in. He sh- hands each one of us 20-page statement. He said, “Guys, let me tell you something. I’m defending you on an assault with intent to kill charge. I’m gonna get that reduced, but if you get busted [00:40:00] dealing cocaine, you’ve got to stop dealing cocaine, ’cause if you get busted dealing cocaine while I’m on this case, it’s gonna complicate the case.” Yeah. “You gotta stop.” And I said, “Mike, I don’t tell you how to practice law, and you don’t tell me how to make money. You just keep doing what you do, and I’ll keep doing what I do, and I’ll keep bringing you money.” And he never said another word. Three or four months later, I become a Christian. I walk into his office by myself. And when I walked in the door, he said, “What happened to you?” If you look at that book on the picture of my, on the back of my book, that was four months before I became a Christian. And the Bible says the eyes are the windows of the soul. I had a very dark soul. Yeah, I can see. I had a very dark soul. Yeah. And so he goes, “What happened to you?” And I said, “What do you mean?” And he said, “You don’t look the same.” And I said, “I’m not the same.” And I told him what happened. And he said… And I said, “We’ve got a problem.” And he goes, “What’s our [00:41:00] problem, Bill?” I said, “I can’t lie anymore.” He said, “You’re right. We’ve got a problem.” ‘Cause we’d been lying for seven months. We told… He knew the story. He said, “I just need to know this. I’ll defend you guys. I’ll beat this case, but I need to know.” So we told… And at this point now, seven months later, he said, “There’s no way out of this thing. You guys are going to prison.” He said, “I can help you figure out a way to get to the good prison, but you’re going to prison.” So when I go in that day and he goes, “What’s wrong? What what happened?” And I told him, and he said, “You don’t look the same.” I said, “I’m not the same.” I said, “We got a problem.” He goes, “What?” I said, “We can’t lie. I can’t lie anymore.” And he said I’ve got an idea.” And I said, “What?” He said if I enter a plea bargain, I think we can do this.” And he said, “You guys won’t go to prison.” And he said, “Talk to Mike and Charlie and see what they say.” So I called them. We went down, met with him. And this time they looked at me and said, “What do you think we should do, Bill?” [00:42:00] I said, “I think we ought to take the plea bargain.” We got five years’ probation and a $5,000 fine. Now, the crazy thing- that was on the assault. Yeah, they- That was on the assault. But you still got a cocaine case out here pending with the feds. No. No. No. That, if, that, that- 20-page statement that implicated me was never, he never got it out of his office. It never went out of Fitzgerald’s office. So it, he didn’t tell it to… He told it to whoever he told it to, but to the police, and the police were all crooks anyway . Yeah. So I don’t know who he told. I just know that our lawyer said if this cocaine thing comes up, it’s gonna complicate our case. It never came up. Oh. And so maybe it was the mercy of God, I don’t know. Because it was a 20-page typewritten statement naming judges, Kenny Weld, all these guys, and all these people started falling after that. And so anyway, we ended up getting a $5,000 fine and five-year probation. Now, the crazy thing, if you read my book, Charlie and Mike both went, they got called and they [00:43:00] went and reported. I never got a call. 13 months later, I had a nephew getting married up in in Wisconsin, and I wanted to go to that wedding, and I knew I couldn’t leave without permission, but I didn’t have anybody to ask permission from. And when that guy sued me, G- Gary, when that guy sued me and I went and got the lawyer that I told you I went and got, I said, “By the way…” He said, “I wanna take this case.” I said, “Great.” I said, “By the way, I got arrested September 5th of ’82. The case ended in May. I was placed on five-year probation, a $5,000 fine. I’ve never heard from anybody. What do you think I sh- should do?” He said, “Bill, you need to write a letter.” And I put the letter in the book. I wrote a letter and said da. I’d like to be supervised. Please contact me.” 13 months, and they, within two days they were knocking on my front door. And that’s when I started reporting. And Kay King was my first pr- [00:44:00] probation officer, and she asked me all the whole story, and I had sat with her for two hours and told her the whole story. She asked me how many drugs I did, what I did. I said, “I’ve done everything there is, from, marijuana to heroin to… I’ve done it all.” And I did massive amounts of everything. And I was drinking two quarts of whiskey at the end every day. And people are like, “You can’t drink two quarts of whiskey.” I said, “You never did cocaine, did you?” ‘Cause when you’re doing, ’cause when you’re doing cocaine, you can’t get drunk. And so anyway that… And I asked her when I left her office, I said, “So does my probation start now, or does it start back then?” She said, “No, Bill, it starts today.” Oh, really? I said- Wow. I said, “For 13 months I’ve been going to churches and schools and telling people how bad drugs are and how bad alcohol is and how bad this is.” And I said, “I’ve not had a traffic ticket. I haven’t had a traffic ticket.” The only ticket I’ve got in the last 43 years, I had a bad car wreck where I got T-boned at 70 miles an [00:45:00] hour. I pulled out in front of a guy. It was my fault. And that’s the only ticket I’ve had in 43 years. I haven’t been stopped by the police. And she said, “I’m sorry, Bill, it starts today.” Guess what? I did the whole five year. I went from then, I got off in ’89 or something, I th- it was almost five years I did. My partners, they only did a year and a half, and they let them off. And they were still dealing cocaine. They were still dealing. They were still dealing. Matter of fact, one of them’s brother his mama died, and the funeral was at Passantino Brothers over there on the avenue. And I went to the funeral, and I was sorry, and we were hugging. And me and him sat down and were talking, and he had a little leather Gucci bag. And he said, “Hey, I’m go- now listen.” He said, “I’m going to the bathroom. You wanna go with me?” I said, “No, brother.” Yeah. And I got up and left. He wanted to go do some cocaine. Damn. And that was years after, he’d been… Anyway. Yeah. But I’m glad I had to do the whole five years because I got to speak [00:46:00] in some… She called me once and said, “I got a friend that teaches a criminal justice class at a college, and they’ve had detectives and they’ve had police officers, they’ve had lawyers, they’ve had parole officers, but they’ve never had a criminal. Would you come and speak?” And I said, “I’d be glad to.” And I f- and then I called the professor and I said, “I’ve been asked to come.” And he said, “Yeah, we’re looking forward.” And I said I have to tell you one thing. I cannot come in there and speak and not tell your class that my life was radically changed April 15th, 1983, when I came into encounter with God through his son, Jesus Christ.” He said, “That’s okay.” And I went and told them, so I was glad I got to stay on parole for five years. So- So Bill what are you doing now? I know you- I’m just- you’ve got a prison ministry. Do you speak- Yeah … at prisons and, and- That’s all I do, Garrett. 40 years just- How does one get into that? Do you have an agent that booked you into different prisons- No … or how does that work? No. No. I started going in 1986 with [00:47:00] a guy named Bill Glass, who was a NFL player. Played for the Cleveland Browns. He was an All-Pro. Actually started… He got, he retired from football in 1968, so that’s how old he was. Started the ministry in ’72, and was the biggest prison ministry in the nation, had 30,000 volunteers. And I started going in as just a volunteer, and then he asked me to be a platform speaker, and I was a platform speaker for him for 30 years. And went to, I’ve been in over 500 different prisons in my life, and I do prisons almost every day, a prison or a jail almost every day. We’re getting ready to do, this will be our 17th car show up at Crossroads in Cameron, and this will be the biggest car show ever in a US prison, in history. Last year was the biggest. We had 80 cars last year, but this year we’re planning on- by car sh- car show, what do you mean? Like guys bring their classic cars up and…? And drive them in on the prison yard. Oh, wow. And the inmates get to come out, walk around and look at them. And last year we had 80 cars and bikes. [00:48:00] This year we’re gonna have 250 motorcycles and cars. Wow. And we’re gonna feed 2,000 people. We’ve got… W- we’re gonna have 2,000 meals that day for the inmates and the staff, all the staff. So that’s what I’ve been doing for all these years, and will keep doing it as long as I can, wow. But as far as… I was gonna ask you about old Joey Rags. I knew Joe Ragusa. Did you ever deal with that guy? Did you? Not directly. I followed him a lot and almo- we almost caught him too, in a hit one time. And then they saw us and they had boogied on out. But I know one story- That would have been a- … about him. He was, He needed to go… I heard this later. He needed to go to a meeting downtown, down to City Market with the other mob guys, ’cause, he was right next to Charlie Martina, and he went on several hits with these guys during the Spiro-Savella war. So he’s out at the plumbing place where he was working, so he… Guy comes in- Where was he at? Was he at St. John Plumbing? I don’t remember the name of it. It was over there by N- Jackson, Ninth and Jackson, or Truman and Jackson, somewhere over there [00:49:00] on the east side. I can’t remember the name of it now. And so he need… said… told this guy, he said, “Hey,” he said, “I need to go down to the market.” He said, “Can you give me a ride down there?” And the guy said you got your car here.” He said no, you give me a ride.” So he gets in, lays down in the back seat. So the guy takes him down there, then he gets out. No, he was a real deal. Boy, that old market was something, wasn’t it? Yeah. That old City Market. Oh, man. Yeah, heard mob guys out there. Yeah they had a pretty big… Hey, what about, I was gonna ask you about a couple guys that were big heroin kingpins, Sam Haley and Aaron Gant. Was you involved when they were really big in Kansas City? Y- I was a young policeman, ’72, ’73, ’74, and Aaron Gant and Sam Haley were like the big ducks. And they had this war going between the two little heroin organizations. And Gant was, he was in with some guys, and Aaron Gant called him Junebug. He was in with the God, there was a whole family, the Denmans. He was in with [00:50:00] these guys. And so they… And Sam Haley was… I never did understand the difference, but they had two different organizations and they hated each other is my understanding. Oh, they did. Yeah. How about Ramseys? Did you know who the Ramseys were? I don’t see. The Ramsey brothers? I remember that na- Huh? I know that name. I think one of those crime families that, that stole- they were- … money in the neighborhood and- They were the- … everyone else … they were killers, all of them. Yeah. I think there was eight boys, and at one time seven or eight of them were in Missouri for murder. And I was seeing… I was in Potosi. And Rambo, R- Roy Rambo Ramsey they called him, and he’s the one that they got a… Remember when the la- what’d they call them that you put on the roof of your car? Oh, Landau top. Landau top, yeah. Yeah. That wasn’t the word I’m looking for, though. Whatever it was, th- you could have them tops put on. Yeah. They got one put on in a poster shop over on Prospect. Oh. And [00:51:00] when they called and said, “Your car’s ready,” they went up there and killed everybody in the shop and took their car and left. And then they went out to Belton or Grandview, and there was an old couple that had a bunch of old coins and stuff, and they knew one of the people. They knew one of the brothers, and I think it was Roy. And they went out there and knocked on the door, and of course, they let them in. They told their girlfriend to stay in the car, and they went in and they shot them They were 65 and 66 years old. The little old lady was 65 and the old man was… They shot each one of them three times, and just for a few dollars worth of coins, man. They were murderers. They were killers. But I was up in Potosi and Roy asked me, he said, “Would you go see my dad?” And I was… I said… He said, “He’s in a nursing home.” And Gary, his father, was a hardworking man, had never committed a crime in his life, and he was in this nursing home. And I went and saw him and prayed for him and stuff. But here are these… He [00:52:00] had these eight sons that were murderers. They were killers. And the old man was in a nursing home dying. And, Roy asked me if I’d go see him, so I went and saw him, prayed for him. But yeah, they were something else, them guys. Interesting. You you mentioned Sam Haley. There w- we had, here just in your area, was a guy named Michael Cantu, who used to be a fire captain. Had… Was a, a big time cocaine dealer. During those years, he got into- Yeah … cocaine. He and his brother Joe and Joe Maggio, and they had a cocaine deal going, and he got back out. He had a body shop over on Independence Avenue, and two Black guys came in and executed him, basically. Left the employee there. There wasn’t anything to steal, and executed him. And the drawings, one of them we… There was a lot of speculation it looked like Sam Haley. So I think he was- Might’ve been … I think he was supplying Black dealers with cocaine I believe. I saw him meeting with some guys once that that- Yeah, they were- … I didn’t know who they were, but they all looked like Black cocaine dealers they were killers, all them guys. Haley and Gant and those guys. Did you, I asked you about, Yeah, heavy idea. [00:53:00] I- here’s a question. I just got an inquiry from one of Gant’s relatives of… They were wanting to know more about Aaron Gant getting killed. See, he got out of the joint. He went to Missouri State Penitentiary, I think it was for drugs. Yep. And he went to a club that night, and somebody walked in, was walked in, shot him, and walked out right away. Another Black dude. So this relative was asking me if I knew any more about it. I didn’t know any more about it. You remember that deal at all? I don’t remember that. Okay. I di- I actually, I was thinking that Aaron Gant and Sam Haley had been dead for years, but, that was- this was years ago. This was quite a while ago. Okay. This was probably- Yeah, I thought he might have died in prison or something, ’cause I knew they both had a lot of time. They did a lot of- Yeah … time in Missouri. Yeah. Yeah, they did. So did you- But they were kingpins. Their names are really well-known, feared names on the East Side in Kansas City. Oh, yeah. Really feared names. Absolutely. Did you ever go around Vic Fontana’s place when he opened up Fanny’s? Oh, yeah. I went in and out of several. He had several different places. He had Fanny’s. [00:54:00] He had one down on the Southwest Trafficway a little bit after your time, I think oh, God, I forgot the name of it. But yeah, the, all the mob guys went into his joints. He was mob friendly. Yeah. I was really s- I met him when he had when he had the one up on Main next to Butch’s, next to Mother’s. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He had that place yeah what was, Walter Midy. Must have been Walter Midy’s. Walter Midy. Yeah, that’s where I met Vic. And then I actually plumbed that Fanny’s when he opened up Fanny’s. Oh, did you? Yeah. I plum- me and Saladino plumbed that Fanny’s. So- Yeah, it was, it’s a kind of a upscale place. They had a special VIP section and- Oh, yeah … everybody was anybody who went to Fanny’s at one time. My cocaine partner was really in there a lot and Kenny supplied a lot of the cocaine to them people in Fanny’s. So I was supplying a guy that’s passed now. He’s actually the only guy in my book. We made a little movie of my life in 1993, and Tony was the only guy… There was 178 actors in the movie, [00:55:00] and Tony’s the only one that actually played his own part, and Tony just died a few months ago. But Tony Marino, and he’s the one that knew, he’s the one that had that record shop next to the whorehouse. Oh, yeah. Over there in Englewood. The kingpins. Tony Marino. Yeah. Yeah. And Tony supplied Amigo’s down in the West Side. Over, you know where Amigo’s was over there? Yeah. And I, I gave Tony all the cocaine, and he gave all the cocaine to all those guys over there. Yeah. Sort those out there. Yeah. Interesting stuff. So- So what are you doing today? You- well- … selling this book, The Ultimate Pardon, guys, and I’ll have a link to the book if you want to buy the book in my show notes Yeah, it’s just billcorm.com is how you find it Yeah Bill Cor- Billcorm.com Okay. You got a website, okay. Yeah, billcorm.com. Yeah. But I put it in prisons free. We put 110,000 of them in all 50 states and over 3,000 prisons and jails. Yeah. And then I wrote two other books during COVID ’cause they wouldn’t let me into prison during COVID, Gary. And I was like- Oh, man. Yeah … am I gonna have to go, am I gonna have to go [00:56:00] commit a crime to go to prison? I wanna go to, I wanna go to prison, because I’ve been going in- You’re saving souls, man. Yeah, I’ve been going in since ’86, and now it’s 2020 and they won’t let me in. And I’m like, this is not right. We made two other books. One’s called Diamonds for the Rough, and the other one’s called Nuggets of Gold by 12 Ex-Cons. It’s like a little daily devotional. Oh, good. Little short, 112 page book. Little short book. Yeah. Interesting. But yeah, so that’s what I’m doing. And I’m, Right now we’re also, all inmates now, I don’t know if you knew this, but all inmates have tablets, electronic tablets. I didn’t know that. Oh, yeah. A- all two million inmates have a tablet. Really? Wow. And they can email their families, or families can email them, send them pictures. I don’t know how it works. Don’t ask me how it works. Don’t ask me how electricity works. I just know if you- Yeah … flip a switch, the lights come on. But these tablets, they can’t get on the internet. They can’t Google and get on pornography or nothing like that. Yeah. But they’re able to communicate with their families through this tablet. There’s apps on those tablets, [00:57:00] just like your phone has a Google app. It has a weather app. There’s an app called Edovo, E-D-O-V-O, and Edovo right now is on 1,200,000 tablets, and by the end of the year they think they’ll be on all two million. We’re putting our content on those tablets. Oh, okay. So everything on YouTube, on Instagram, everything I put on the internet, ’cause I don’t put anything on there except about God. I don’t put any politic stuff on. Yeah. I want to sometimes- … ’cause I’d like to, I’d like to rebut people, but I don’t… I just am not gonna do that. I’m not gonna get involved in those arguments. Yeah. I go in prisons and an inmate wants to argue with me about religion, ’cause there’s 50 religions in there, I could name them- Yeah. Oh, yeah … but I’m not going to. A lot of different religions, and they wanna argue. And I go I’ll argue with you, but before we start, can I tell you one thing? A man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument. And see, I had an experience April 15th, 1983.” Yeah. [00:58:00] And they wanna argue about different things and “You’re gonna get back on drugs. You’re gonna get…” I said, “Let me tell you the difference between abstinence and deliverance. Abstinence is saying, I haven’t had a drink in 12 years, 4 months, 3 days, 7 hours and 12 minutes. That’s abstinence.” Deliverance is saying I don’t drink anymore. I got set free April 15, 19… I haven’t done a drug. I haven’t done an illegal drug. I’ve done drugs because I had back surgery, neck surgery, car wrecks. It… But I haven’t done an illegal drug since April 15th of ’83. I’ve not smoked a cigarette, and I was smoking three packs of non-filtered Camels a day. I’ve not had one drop of alcohol, and I’ve not kissed another woman, and I used to kiss a different woman every day when I’d leave Debbie for weeks at a time and come back and would be gone for weeks. My kids would call or come over and say, “Where’s Dad?” And she’d say, “I haven’t seen your dad in weeks. I don’t know where your dad’s at.” And I’ve not kissed another woman since ’83. We’ve been married 46 years. I have had an experience with God- Yeah … that changed my life. [00:59:00] Yeah. Interesting. And so I’ll argue all you wanna argue, but you’re wasting your time because you’re not gonna change my mind. So you got a YouTube channel. Probably just search for Bill Corum on that, but, Prison Power. Prison Power. Prison, Prison Power and- Prison Power Bill Corum. Okay. And- And Instagram, Bill Corum. And Instagram. Okay. I don’t know the, I don’t know the call letters or how you can get to- no, you can figure it out. I… Yeah. Yeah. All you need to know is Bill Corum in prison. They’ll figure it out. Yeah. If you put Bill Corum in there, you’re gonna find all- yeah … kinds of stuff on Google and all that, they got a lot of content out there, which is- Yeah … that’s the name of the game, get that content out there. That’s what we’re doing here- … getting content out there. Yeah. Gary, I’m 82 years old, and when I was 80 years old, I wanted, I’ve wanted to do something my whole life and never got to do it. And when I was… I’ve got a son that’s an attorney- … who’s been at, he’s been with the same firm for 30 years. He’s never lost a trial or an arbitration in 30 years. I’ve got a son that’s an oncologist, one of the best cancer doctors in the country. And my two boys took me to do something on my 80th birthday [01:00:00] that I’ve wanted to do for long. I wanted to drive a tank. And they took- How do you drive a tank? They took… I… Next time me and you have lunch, I’ll show you videos. I’ve, they, I got to drive five tanks. I got to shoot, I got to shoot 13 different machine guns, including the mini gun. Really? Including the mini gun. Oh my God. Yeah. That sounds wicked. It was up in- I’d seen that … it was up in Kasota, Minnesota. Yeah. Yeah. When I was shooting that mini gun, I was praying, “Lord, don’t ever let a bad guy get ahold of one of these.” Oh my goodness. That thing is- I know … oh, goodness. I know. It’s amazing. Unbelievable. Yeah. So that was a pretty fun thing, and, … yeah, I’ve enjoyed it. So God’s good to me, man. All right. Bill Corum, the ultimate pardon. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Bill. Thank you, Gary. It’s been a pleasure. God bless.

Transcribed - Published: 8 June 2026

Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with former criminal and prison minister Bill Corum for one of the most unusual conversations ever featured on Gangland Wire. Bill Corum recounts his journey from car theft and prison escapes in the early 1960s to his deep involvement in Kansas City’s criminal underworld in the 1970s and early 1980s. He describes his work around pornography, prostitution, stolen property, cocaine trafficking, and his connections to notorious Kansas City underworld figures. Gary and Bill discuss legendary Kansas City mob fence Sol Landi and his murder by assassins sent by the mob, the River Quay era, Junior Bradley, corrupt influences in local politics and the courts, and the explosive cocaine culture that swept through Kansas City during the 1980s. Bill also shares stories involving Weld Wheels founder Kenny Weld, cocaine trafficking operations, and the dangerous atmosphere surrounding organized crime in Kansas City. The conversation dives into: Bill’s prison escape and stolen car career The prostitution business in Independence, Missouri Mob-connected fences and stolen property rings Cocaine trafficking in Kansas City during the early 1980s The murder of Saul Landy River Quay nightlife and mob influence Corrupt officials and criminal networks Kansas City organized crime personalities Prison life and criminal culture Bill Corum’s dramatic religious conversion in 1983 His decades-long prison ministry work across America Bill also explains how he transformed his life after addiction, violence, and years in the criminal world, eventually dedicating his life to prison outreach and ministry programs throughout the United States. You can learn more about Bill Corum and his book at either The Ultimate Pardon or Bill Corum Official Website Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 8 June 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with author Frank Hayde to explore his latest book, Hoffa’s Connection. Hayde, a Kansas City native and noted mob historian, brings forward a largely overlooked figure in organized crime history—Sylvia Pagano. The conversation centers on Pagano’s rise from Kansas City to Detroit, where she operated at the intersection of organized crime and labor unions under Jimmy Hoffa. Known for her effectiveness as a union organizer, Pagano infiltrated workplaces, signed up members, and quietly maintained ties to powerful mob figures. Her ability to navigate both worlds made her a key behind-the-scenes operator during a volatile era in American labor history. Hayde details Pagano’s role in helping broker alliances between the Mafia and the Teamsters during a turbulent strike, marking a turning point in the relationship between organized crime and labor. Drawing from FBI wiretaps, he reveals candid conversations that shed light on her relationships with influential mob leaders like Tony Giacalone and Moe Dalitz, emphasizing her strategic importance across multiple crime families. The episode also explores the life of Chucky O’Brien, who grew up surrounded by Hoffa and organized crime figures. Through Hayde’s research and interviews, listeners gain insight into the generational impact of mob ties, as well as the strict code of silence that governed both mother and son. Beyond individual stories, the discussion expands to the broader national network connecting crime families and labor unions. Pagano’s reach extended well beyond regional boundaries, illustrating how organized crime leveraged union influence across the country. This episode offers a fresh perspective on the enduring mystery surrounding Hoffa’s disappearance by examining the deeper historical context—and the overlooked players like Sylvia Pagano who helped shape it. It’s a detailed look at power, loyalty, and survival within the American Mafia. The book is Hoffa’s Connections:The Story of Sylvia Pagano: the Kansas City Girl at the Center of the Mafia’s Alliance with the Teamsters Union  xxx [0:00] Hey, all you wiretappers out there, good to be back here in the studio of Gangland [0:03] Wire. This is Gary Jenkins. I’m a retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective, later sergeant. I have this podcast, Gangland Wire. I’ve got a website. If you want to go check my website out, I’ve got a few things for sale on there. And you can go rent the documentaries I’ve done about the Kansas City mob on Amazon. Just search my name. I’m all over the internet. Just search my name and mafia and you’ll find more you ever wanted to know about me and the mob and what I’ve done. And today I have a really a former Kansas City boy, a Kansas City native who has done several books on the mob, particularly the Kansas City mob. And he’s got a most recent one that I find just really fascinating. It’s a little known story that will help shed the light on Jimmy Hoffa, a little bit more light than most of you ever knew. There’s some questions that I had myself that’s not really in the in the popular culture about Jimmy Hoffa. It’s Frank Hayde. Welcome, Frank. Thanks, Gary. Great to be with you again. All right, Frank. We’ve done Mafia Dreams and Mafia and the Machine. So tell the guys a little bit about yourself and your books. [1:13] I grew up in Kansas City. My family stretches way back in Kansas City, and they were involved in the political machine under Pendergast, and so I heard a lot of stories about those days growing up. Later in my career with the National Park Service, I worked a short stint at the Harry Truman National Historic Site, where I learned more about local history, more about the political machine and the mob in Kansas City. So that’s where my interest started. [1:39] And then many years later, I wrote The Mafia and the Machine, and then followed that up with some of these other books, including this most recent one, Hoffa’s Connection, the story of Sylvia Pagano, the Kansas City girl at the center of the Mafia’s alliance with the Teamsters. You know, that’s the mouthful, I know. You know how it is with the subtitle. You can try to get the, summarize the entire book in your subtitle. So, that’s what that is. Yeah. When you look up a book or you see it online or whatever, you want to know quickly what it’s about. So I see that title, Hoffa. Oh, that’s interesting. I thought everything was done about Hoffa. Then you got this subtitle in here and you say, oh, that’s interesting. I didn’t know about this. And I didn’t myself, this Sylvia Pagano. And the story starts in Kansas City. It’s a fascinating story, guys. I want to tell you, it is a fascinating story. [2:31] But before we get started, Frank was a park ranger, a law enforcement park ranger for the National Park Service for 20 years. And he has a really interesting mob interaction when he was in, I believe you run a temporary assignment out in California. Tell the guys about your mafia interaction as a law enforcement officer. [2:53] Yeah. So I was actually at the park service 32 years. 20 of those were law enforcement and just retired. But in the summer of 2024, I got to go out to Redwood National Park on what we call a detail, which is a temporary assignment. They were shorthanded and needed a little extra help. And I knew the place pretty well because I had worked there earlier in my career. So I went out there and it’s a beautiful place. And I was on patrol and I came upon a campsite and there was some violations going on. Nothing major, just the typical stuff that we see as park rangers. And I contacted the occupants of this campsite and I got their licenses and I was back in my vehicle running the licenses. There was a male and a female and the female, I noticed it was a New York license and Brooklyn address and last name is Scarpa. I said, no, that can’t be. That’d be too much of a coincidence. And ran the information, recontacted the subject. And I asked the female, I said, by any chance, are you related to Greg Scarpa? She said, oh, yeah, that was my grandfather. And Greg Jr. was my father. [4:02] And I guess I had to laugh. And by then, I had already written a ticket or two, I think, for just petty offenses. And so I handed her ticket and then asked her if she’d take a picture with me. But she was real nice. She understood that people don’t mind, and she was great. She took a picture with me, and she was more than happy to talk about her father and her grandfather. And it was all very interesting and just quite the coincidence. Yeah, really. That was quite a coincidence. Not only the main coincidence was that you knew her. And then a lot of people might know the name. You really knew the name. Yeah, no. And you had this whole interest in it to talk about. Yeah, I can tell you that 99% of park rangers, you have no idea. Now, if you’re a Brooklyn cop, that’s different. But I was probably the only park ranger alive that would have made that connection because of my interest in the topic. I’ve been trying to get Greg Scarlett Jr. to come on. He’s made some intimations to somebody else. He followed my Facebook group, and I followed his. And so I don’t know. I reached out indirectly. I don’t know exactly how to get a hold of him. Maybe I’ll package this little story up and I’ll send that to him. Maybe that’ll get him to come on the show. Except you wrote the tickets, damn it. That’s the problem. I hope he won’t come after me to write in his daughter’s tickets. Yeah. [5:25] All right, Frank. So let’s go in this most recent book, Hoffa’s Connection. How did you, Sylvia Pagano, how did you even get onto that name other than, did you start, she’s Chucky O’Brien’s mother, who most guys know if you’re really into Hoffa at all, or even on the little bit, Chucky O’Brien was, everybody thought he was like his illegitimate son a lot of times or his surrogate son. And he was really close to Hoffa and drove him around. I was going through your book. He was a guy that Hoffa could send around to other mob people because he was half Italian himself and both sides trusted him to carry messages and do meetings and things like that. So how did you get onto this originally? So I got a call from Jack Goldsmith, who’s a very interesting man because he is the learned hand professor of law at Harvard University, senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, former assistant attorney general under President Bush. But for me, the most interesting thing about him was that he is Chucky O’Brien’s stepson. [6:29] And he was working on his book, Inhofe’s Shadow, when he contacted me. It’s a great book. I would recommend it to all the wiretappers. But it’s about Chucky. And he wanted to know if I had come across any information on Chucky O’Brien in my research for the Mafia and the Machine, because Chucky was from Kansas City. I said, what? Chucky O’Brien was from Kansas City? Because I knew all about Chucky O’Brien, but I had no idea he was from Kansas City. So that shocked me. And I don’t think very few people knew that. His Kansas City roots were scarcely known. Everybody just thought of Chucky as a Detroit guy. But when I finally read Goldsmith’s book, it’s about Chucky, but he touches on Sylvia. And I found what he wrote about Sylvia to be completely fascinating, especially because she was Kansas City. And so I thought, shoot, she’s in my wheelhouse. I thought, wow, she would make a great subject for a book. But I balked at it because she was so secretive that she left hardly anything information, hardly any documents exist about Sylvia. It’s just she wasn’t like the men that she associated with who were so extensively documented. There was just very little known about her, not even very many photographs in existence. [7:44] But fortunately, I got together with Pat Faisal in Kansas City. He’s a terrific researcher. You’ve worked with him a lot, Gary. You’ve had him on your show, I think. I think he’s written a couple of really important books on local history, and he had come across her independently of me, and through his own research, he had stumbled on just a brief mention or two of Sylvia Pagano in various FBI documents. [8:09] And so we decided to put our heads together, and Pat helped me with the research, did the lion’s share of the research, fed it to me, and then I would write the story. And that’s how it came together. [8:21] Interesting. And Frank, one of the coolest things, the research that Pat found was those wiretaps or bugs that the illegal bugs the FBI had in her house. And so they got a lot of really great conversations and they’re all transcribed and out there for somebody to find. So to me, that was fascinating. [8:45] Yes, that was probably our best source are these transcripts from the illegal microphones that the FBI placed in homes and businesses of organized crime associates all over the country back in the 60s. Got some great information from those. Sylvia talking freely in her apartment. Candidly, because she doesn’t know anybody’s list. And they had him in Tony Giacalone’s home juice company in Detroit also. And Sylvia was often a topic of conversation over there as well. By the way, Tony Giacalone was Sylvia’s paramour for many years. They had a long affair. People who think that Sylvia had an affair with Hoffa that produced Chucky O’Brien, [9:28] And that is not accurate. Chucky, we know who Chucky’s father was. He was a criminal out of St. Louis from the time he was a boy and went to prison when he was a young guy, was recruited from prison to come to Kansas City and work as a driver, for none other than Charlie Banagio. And so that put him right at the center of the action. [9:53] And Sylvia, having married the young man that put her right, she was already at the center of the action because she knew all the movers and shakers in the North End at that time already from the time she was a girl. But they became very much a part of Banagio’s network. And this was one fact that really blew me away that I didn’t know. And I don’t think you know it or Owsley or O’Malley or really anybody in Kansas City that Charlie Banagio was Chuckie O’Brien’s godfather. Yeah, I didn’t know that. Yeah. That is interesting. So Sylvia Pagano, she lives down there in the North End, what we call the North End folks, which is our little Italy. There’s a big church that anchors that neighborhood. And that’s where all the people came from Southern Italy and Sicily, moved into Kansas City and were associated with the church down there. After them, the Vietnamese came in and the church sponsored a lot of the Vietnamese and settled in that same neighborhood as it became a shifting neighborhood. So she’s down over there in Little Italy or the North End. And she meets a guy named Michael. Was it Three Fingers? [11:03] Oh, yeah. Frankie. Frankie Three Fingers. Coppola. Coppola, yeah. So tell us about that relationship. Yeah, that’s really interesting because Frankie Three Fingers… Hasn’t really been chronicled much as part of the Kansas City family. Because he was a roving guy, he had a lot of clout in both Italy and the U.S., and he had memberships in multiple families, and he was a high-ranking status too. So wherever he went, whether it was Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles, St. Louis, New York, New Orleans, he was all over the place, and he was well-respected wherever he went. But he was in Kansas City for quite a long time. He was strongly associated with Padagio. And it appears from all the evidence, as well as testimony from organized crime experts in Detroit, that Frankie Three Fingers escorted Sylvia to Detroit after her marriage with Charles O’Brien ended in about 1941 in Kansas City. [12:13] So Sylvia arrives in Detroit on the arm of Frank Coppola, and that put her on the fast track to getting to know the upper echelon of the Detroit family and mobsters, top mobsters beyond Detroit. Coppola was associated with Costello in his slot machine racket down in New Orleans. [12:36] And later, after he got deported back to Italy, He worked with Lucky Luciano to put together the whole narcotics syndicate network that included the French Connection. So tremendously influential as a mobster. Sylvia could really not have picked a more influential and well-connected guy as a boyfriend. That really put her on the fast track to getting to know a lot of the most powerful guys in the country. Really interesting guy. Frank Copeland. I’ll just say it and maybe someone else can run with it. I don’t know if it’ll be me or not, but he would make a great subject for a book. Yeah, he’s not very well known. And the mob used to have this guy, Nikolai Gentile. He traveled around to different families and brokered different deals. I think back before communication was so fast and you didn’t fly from one city to the other, you had to take a train. That’s a whole day on the train to get one city to the other. Telephone communication wasn’t that good. You didn’t hardly make long distance phone calls back there in the 20s and 30s. I don’t think they were hard. So you have guys like this that then travel around and take messages that are trusted by the different cities. And so he had to be one of those guys. [13:52] You’re exactly right. In fact, he knew Nicola Gentile. [13:58] Gentile is also, I speak about him in this book also. He plays a role, a pretty important one, and he describes some events that are really fascinating. This story actually doesn’t begin in Kansas City. It begins in Pueblo, Colorado. There’s three geographic areas that are really emphasized in this story. Pueblo, Colorado, Kansas City, and Detroit. But Nicola Gentili and Frank Coppola knew each other in the United States, and they knew each other in Italy. And you’re exactly right, they had a similar role as traveling diplomats within the mafia. Very interesting. Not too many other guys, especially later on. They had Johnny Roselli, who was really well-traveled, and some others. But in those early days, a couple of these guys, Coppola, Gentile, I don’t know if there was any others or not, but that was what they did. They were all over the place, and they were so well-connected, and they really had memberships in multiple families. And that seems to have faded away later. You didn’t hear too much about guys that had more than one member. So occasionally somebody would switch families, but yeah, they were really interesting, [15:11] real, what you would call international mystery men, I think. Interesting. So she had an affair with him, and he brought her up to Detroit and started making connections in Detroit, if I remember the story right, with the Jackalones. And so what. [15:27] Take us on from there. How does she then move in with Hoffa? And she’s like in the middle between the Peckerwood truck drivers and the Italian mob, which they both needed each other and they worked well together for a long time. So how does she end up in the center of that? Yeah, she’s still quite young when she gets to Detroit. She’s just early 20s, maybe mid 20s at that point. But and here she is she’s immediately meeting all of the wise guys but she was still she needed a job she needed work i’m sure coppola helped her out to some extent but he had his own wife he had his own he probably had another mistress or two as well i mean she needed to make a she needed to make a living and raise her son chucky and um she got a job with the teamsters at that time in In Detroit, unions were strong. There was a lot of unions, and it was the capital of industrial unionism at that time. And so that just became a natural choice. She ended up meeting Burke Brennan initially, actually, even before Hoffa. Brennan was Hoffa’s right-hand guy. [16:36] And he gave her a job with the Teamsters as a salter. She was an organizer, and a good one, and a legit organizer. But her specialty was salting. Now, what’s that? So she was a union representative, and she would get a job in a factory or a warehouse, just an ordinary job. And she would go to work, just like everybody else, punch the clock. But while she was there, her real objective was signing other people up to join the union. So she’s like a secret agent in a way, buried into the normal workforce, but with a real different agenda. And she was real good at it. And the union guys noticed that she worked really hard and she was loyal and that she would keep her mouth shut. And so those were the same qualities that the mob guys admired. So this was at the time, though, and this is very important, when most of the unions and the mob were still at odds with each other. Back then, the gangsters were getting hired by companies to break strikes and to oppose unions. [17:47] And there was a particularly bad strike going on. It lasted a long time. The Teamsters were striking the Detroit Lumber Company. This was at about 42. And it was violent. And Hoffa could see the writing on the wall that the Teamsters were losing the battle. It went on and on. It was violent. And that’s where Sylvia Pagano stepped in. Burt Brennan told Jimmy Hoffa he should talk to Facci. Facci was Italian for face. And that was Sylvia’s nickname that she got when she was young back in Kansas City. Had a very pretty face. And so they called her the face. So Hoffa talked to Fauci and she set up a basically like a summit meeting peace conference, more or less. And they brokered a deal where the mob switched sides and became allies with the Teamsters against the Detroit Lumber Company. So that was really the moment that changed history, brought the mafia into the Teamsters orbit and vice versa. And that’s all traceable right back to Sylvia Pagano. [18:55] Wow. That’s interesting. I always wondered what the genesis of that was with Hoffa and the mob. And of course, we can see how it developed, but what that actual birth of that was. I think you’ve stumbled across the birth of it. You also… [19:11] We’re able to stumble across the birth of the Eastern families and New York families connection to Hoffa, which that that gets even bigger. Tell us a little bit about that. She was involved in that, believe it or not, guys. And just like in Detroit, back in New York, there’s Johnny Dio. He was busting up labor union strikes for the companies. Yeah, I think that to some degree in New York, New Jersey, that some Teamsters locals had already been infiltrated by the mafia independently and maybe unbeknownst to Hoffa in Detroit. But it really became a big thing with Hoffa and with Sylvia’s brokering that alliance. Little isolated examples of mob infiltration, I think, were already happening in Detroit. But once again, as Hoffa’s progressing in his career, moving up the ranks, he always had his eye on the top job. He wanted to be the president of the IBT. And of course, he knew he needed help in the Northeast for that, to realize that goal. And so with Sylvia helped set up meetings with Tony Ducks Corral Johnny Diagordi Tony Provenzano and Sylvia had gotten to know Provenzano in Detroit because he had strong connections to Detroit let’s see his cousin was married to. [20:39] Tony Giacalone’s cousin was married to Tony Pro, I believe, or vice versa. That’s your book. Yeah. I’d have to go back and read my own book. Yeah, it’s hard to keep up. Hard to remember all the details. All these players. Giacalone’s cousin was married to Provenzano. And so Sylvia had already met Provenzano in Detroit. And Chucky, her son, had already started calling him Uncle Tony. And so she had this great connection to Provenzano. And so she helped facilitate the Teamsters Mob Alliance in New York and New Jersey, just as she had in Detroit. And then it goes on from there. Then she later, we’re moving forward now, but she would later become the link between Hoffa and his closest contact in Cleveland, which was Moe Daylitz. She became the link between Hoffa and Alan Dorfman in Chicago. And she became the link between Hoffa and the Sevilla brothers in Kansas City. So she really was, and this is all, they taught, there’s a, from those FBI tapes, those illegal FBI tapes, we have Tony Zarelli and Nick Sevilla in Florida speaking about Sylvia Pagano and her relationship as a liaison between the Detroit family and between the Kansas City family. Like, there’s your proof right there. Not that you need it. She was really… [22:09] The guys, a lot of them really liked, adored her in the sense of she did have an affair with a couple of them, and she was a good-looking woman. A lot of them had, Moe Dalitz was known to have a crush on Sylvia, possibly an affair with Sylvia. But she was more than your mob mole, right? She was a dealmaker. She was an advisor. She was a liaison. She brought money to the table. She did deals with the guys. She helped broker some pension fund loans, all these things. So what I like to say about Sylvia is that we all know that the mob never inducted women into their ranks. But if they had, Sylvia Pagana would have been their first choice because she worked hard. She was loyal. [22:56] She kept her mouth shut. And she really lived truer to the code than some of the men did. She was 100% omerta. She really was. and she learned that in the north end of Kansas City, where Umerta was extremely strong even up into this century after it wasn’t so strong in other places and so she passed that on to Chucky O’Brien. He was also a real strong adherent to the code of silence. Yeah, I think we have to remember Chucky O’Brien was half Italian. His father was Italian. No. [23:33] So his mother, Sylvia, was the Italian. Mother, Sylvia, yeah. Yeah, his dad was Irish. Yeah, I got that mixed up. Exactly, asked backwards. But yeah, he was half Italian. And so he really talked the talk, and he moved right in. All these guys were like his uncle, Uncle Nick, Uncle Quirk, and that kind of thing. So he came back to Kansas City. Tell a little bit about Chuckie O’Brien and Kansas City. Yeah, so in 1950, he’d been in Detroit for about nine years by that point. 1950, he’s getting into high school age, and Sylvia sent him back to Kansas City to live on Independence Avenue with his grandparents, and he went to Cardinal Glennon High School. [24:13] And became a good athlete, started dating a gal from the old neighborhood who was a lot like Sylvia. I think that’s really interesting because Chucky really idolized his mother, but he never really, when he was young at least, got to spend as much time with her as he wanted. He spent a lot of time back in Kansas City. He spent a lot of time at his uncle’s house in Detroit because Sylvia was so busy with Hoffa and with the mob. So here’s Chucky in Kansas City. He meets a gal from Sylvia’s old neighborhood who has other things in common with Sylvia and who even looks, in my opinion, quite a lot like Sylvia. And he would eventually take her back to Detroit and marry her and have a family together. But his main objective, it really in Kansas City wasn’t so much going to school. It was becoming a truck driver. He wanted to become a truck driver so that he could put himself on the path to becoming a union organizer like his hero and surrogate father, Jimmy Hoffa. And according to Chucky, Uncle Nick and Uncle Cork got him his first job as a driver and got him his first union card with local 541. [25:23] And this was right at the time when Local 541 was becoming ground zero for labor strife and union corruption in the United States. And Gary, you said a key word earlier, which was Peckerwood. And that’s who was running the Kansas City Teamsters at the time. It was dominated by Peckerwood guys, country boys, basically, and like Hoffa. And these guys were just as bad as the Italian gangsters who were more famous. They ran those locals with intimidation and terror, and they were violent, and they were very ambitious. They had political power. [26:08] Make a long story short, in 1953 in Kansas City, we had an inter-union labor war. And it was the Teamsters versus almost every other union in town. And Teamsters were trying to dominate a lot of these other unions is what it was. And so you had a complete paralysis of the entire construction industry for three months. Imagine just all construction stopping for three months in any metro area and how devastating that is to the economy. 23,000 Kansas Citians were out of work. The Teamsters were refusing to pick up or deliver supplies. And that eventually morphed into violence and sabotage. You had guys going into battle at construction sites. People were getting badly injured. People were getting kidnapped. It was, and then furthermore, we had four military defense projects centered in the Kansas City area, and this is right at the height of the Korean War. So these military installations were suffering work stoppages also. So this was unacceptable in Washington. And Congress swooped in with hearings and an investigation. [27:17] And they called this, basically, it was, I think the exact language was something like the most forbidding chapter in the history of American unions, something like that. It was a big deal. This history has been mostly forgotten. But Kansas City was [27:32] completely paralyzed for about three months. And that was the union that was the local mainly primarily local 541 which chucky was a young member of he was too young at that time to get drawn into the politics of the union i don’t believe that he was on the front lines of these these battles and violence that was happening he was just a brand new truck driver at the time but he was part of that in the sense that he was a local a member of the local at the time this stuff was happening so yeah that’s that’s what happened when Chucky came back to Kansas City. [28:07] Interesting. And that must have been the time when Roy Williams started moving up the ladder and the mob was moving in and they moved this auto ring and some of his people out. And Roy Lee Williams must have, with the support of Nick Civella and the local mob, must have moved right on in. Yeah, that’s exactly what happened. The main guy behind all the strife and violence I was just talking about was Orville Ring, classic quintessential Peckerwood guy and then after all this happened Hoffa swooped in and helped negotiate an end to these conflicts in 1953 and, And Nick Civella and his crime family, they were all watching all this from the wings, planning and scheming. Wow, there’s a lot going on here. How can we capitalize on this? [28:50] So in the aftermath of it all, the Savellas basically intimidated Orville Ring out of the Union. He went back to his farm. Later, he was killed in an accident on his farm, which a lot of people thought was the mob, that the mob did it. But it looked probably just an accident. And I think a tractor rolled over on him or something like that. But yeah, Roy Williams. So at this time, just basically the Italians were taken over from the Peckerwoods. There were still some useful Peckerwoods, and they worked together. And Roy Williams was the key guy there. This is when Nick Civella and he started working together to take over the Teamsters in Kansas City. You’re exactly right. And the rest is history. Really? really. Roy Williams is an interesting guy. He was a war hero from World War II. He had several bronze stars and he was a huge war hero, but he knew which side of the bread got the butter. And so he went with that and he went with Nick Civella. And he did, he bucked up to him a few times, but Nick Civella, actually in a famous scene, Nick Civella had him picked up and driven somewhere and shined a bright light in his eyes and said, you will go along with this scheme. [30:05] So it’s, but he kept going along to almost, he almost, he did become the president of the union for a short period of time, almost right there at the end of his life and when everybody was going to jail. But he was Nick Civella’s protege and Nick Civella’s puppet for his whole life and the whole Teamsters union was. [30:24] Yeah and that story you mentioned with the white spotlight shining in his eyes they kidnapped him and took him into this empty warehouse and i always point to that as just one of those. [30:34] Terrifying stories about how the mob used to work and yeah man and that wasn’t the only time that they intimidated roy williams in that manner so he like you said he was this tough guy war hero He was a big guy, and yet even a guy like that can get intimidated into doing whatever these guys tell him to do because his tactics that they used were just terrifying. Yeah. I read one thing where he later on, he claimed when he turned and gave evidence and talked to the Bureau that he claimed that they also threatened his wife and children during one of these sit downs with him. I mean, they did the same thing to Alan Glick out in Las Vegas. Tuffy DeLuna was out there, and he read off Alan Glick’s name of his wife and his children. He said, you may find yourself expendable, but I don’t think you’re going to find your family expendable and read off their names. So there’s two good examples of them. Say that Bob never messes with your family. There’s two good examples of them using the family and family as threats. Yeah. [31:40] It’s very tough. Yeah, it is. I heard knowing Mo Dalitz, to me, that was key because he was such a mover and an operator. Talk a little more about that. He had been in Cleveland. He had to set her up with Bill Presser. And that was primarily Jewish mobsters in Cleveland, seemed to me like. And then he also had all those connections to Chicago to get to Red Dorfman, his son, Alan Dorfman. Talk a little more about that relationship with Mo Dalitz. In Mo Dalitz’s biography, I can’t think of the name of the author at the moment, but that author states that Sylvia was one of Mo Dalitz’s lovers. I’m not sure if that’s true or not. I do think that Mo Dalitz, at the very least, had a crush on Sylvia, but also respected her very much. And she, just as she had with the Detroit family before, she brokered an alliance with Daylitz. What happened was Daylitz had a laundry empire, was a rum runner and a racketeer and a leader in the Jewish mob. But he also had a lot of legitimate businesses, including a laundry empire in Detroit and Cleveland. [32:53] And while he was still in Detroit, before he really made his move to Cleveland, his permanent move to Cleveland, his laundries, along with other laundry owners, they bonded together in an association. And they were very anti-union. And they were basically at odds with the Teamsters. And until Sylvia swooped in. And Sylvia had her own connections by now to the Laundry Workers Union also. So she’s working for the Teamsters, and she’s very close to Hoffa, but she then married a guy named John Paris, who was the head of the Laundry Workers Union. [33:32] So Sylvia knows Hoffa, and she knows the head of the Laundry Workers Union very closely, and she knows Dalitz. So she’s the one who’s positioned to bring these people together, sit them down at the same table, and start working together, start negotiating. And that’s what she did with Daylitz. And so that led to Daylitz paying off Hoffa, basically, to settle this contract on terms that were favorable to Daylitz and the other laundry owners. [34:07] But you could say that Hoffa, in that case, sold out his members, at least at that time. Now, I do want to make it clear that most rank-and-file teamsters for many decades loved Hoffa because he definitely did negotiate some great contracts that brought truck drivers into the middle class, got them very good pay and benefits. And it’s only fair, it’s only right to give him credit because as somebody once said about Hoffa. [34:33] He was always a criminal, but also always a teamster. And he worked very hard for his membership. He never stopped working. And it was sincere, I do believe. But there were times when he, the ends justified the means and he did whatever he had to do to keep the union alive, but also to serve himself and enrich himself. And that was one of those cases where the membership lost out a little bit when Hoffa and Daylitz formed their alliance with the initiation and the help of Sylvia Pagano. Interesting. So let’s go back to Chucky O’Brien for a minute. He goes back up from Kansas City. He ends up back up in Detroit and working very closely with Jimmy Hoffa. And you talked to his son. Yeah. And to make that, and he was probably a huge help and some insight into what his father was like. So talk about Chucky O’Brien when he got back with Hoffa. Yeah, so he goes back to Detroit. [35:31] And he steps right back into the Hoffa family circle because Sylvia became part of the Hoffa family. She was Josephine Hoffa’s best friend. Jimmy Hoffa relied on her not only for important work in the union and for important connections to the mob, but he also relied on her heavily as Josephine’s personal assistant and caretaker. Sylvia worked extremely hard serving other people. And she was an excellent caretaker to Josephine who needed a lot of care, had very poor health, made worse by severe alcoholism. And Sylvia was a wonderful caretaker. But Chucky stepped right back into that family orbit. Later, when his own kids were small, Chucky and his wife and his kids moved into the Hoffa house. They’d all lived under the same roof for quite a few years. But Sylvia was really the glue that kept it all together and Chucky’s son who’s also named Chuck O’Brien he was a young boy at this time so his memories of his grandmother. [36:42] And Jimmy Hoffa started when he was a young boy and continued up until Sylvia died when he was in his late teens, but he was a great source for the book helped out a lot I really appreciate him And it was interesting to have direct access to someone who actually lived under the same roof with Jimmy Hoffa. So he was not privy, young Chuck was not privy to any inside information or any mob dealings or anything like that. But he later moved to Kansas City and went to work in the River Key for his uncle at the Godfather Lounge, which just a couple of years later was torched in the River Key War. And then young Chuck had worked in professional hockey for a while. And then he became a truck driver and joined Local 41. And so all this history just comes full circle and repeats itself. And I was a little fascinated by these Sylvia’s grandkids who were born and raised in Detroit. They both ended up back in Kansas City in the land of their parents and their grandparents. And they ended up in the same neighborhoods that Sylvia had been born in many years before. [37:57] Interesting. And Chucky O’Brien, then he’s kind of Hoffa’s driver sometimes. And Aaron Renner on up to the end of Hoffa’s life was even implicated at the very end. Some people claim that he helped set Hoffa up because he was the one person that Hoffa trusted. And that one movie, The Irishman or whatever, really threw a lot of shade on Chucky O’Brien. So how did you deal with that. [38:21] Yeah, I think Chucky got a real bad rap, and as I used to study Hoffa and read all the Hoffa books, I always thought, I always had a very low opinion of Chucky O’Brien, and he became the butt of a joke, and he was portrayed as this blundering, not-too-bright guy who either helped kill his surrogate father or was duped into giving him a ride to where he was killed without knowing what was going on and without being able to, realize it to the point where he could have maybe helped Hoffa. I think Jack Goldsmith put all that to rest. He really changed my opinion of Chucky in his book, but I realized that Chucky had been misunderstood in many ways. Was he involved in Hoffa’s disappearance or not? I think Goldsmith basically vindicates Chucky. [39:15] However, I do believe that there’s still some evidence that could strongly suggest that even in light of what Goldsmith wrote, that Chucky could still have known more than he let on. But he was so committed to Emerita that he took a lot of secrets to his grave, I believe. What’s interesting is some of the other co-conspirators in the Hoffa thing ended up dead, like Sally Buggs, and got killed in Little Italy a few years later, and the prevailing wisdom, at least, was to, keep him quiet about the Hoffa case. And they would have probably done the same thing to Chucky if Chucky could have pointed the finger at anybody or implicated anybody. And I’m sure he could have. I’m sure he knew some things about that. He was so close to Giacalone. Chucky was very close to Tony Giacalone and to Tony Provenzano. [40:07] And I think that Chucky survived because Giacalone trusted him 100% just as Sylvia Pagano’s son. Giacalone’s trust in Chucky to not give anybody up was just so rock solid. And he loved Chucky. And I think that he was also honoring Sylvia by allowing Chucky to stay alive. So I know I’m straying from your initial question, Gary. There’s so much going on with the whole Chuck O’Brien thing and his involvement. It gets very interesting. You have to get really down in the weeds with it to understand all of it. But I think that Goldsmith’s book is a great read for anybody who’s interested in Hoffa and the whole case. I definitely would recommend it. So it may come down to Chuck O’Brien. And was he more loyal to the mob, to the mafia and their code? Or more loyal to Hoffa and the Teamsters? as Hoffa as an individual, not to the teams or his union, but Hoffa as an individual. Was he more loyal to Hoffa or more loyal to the union or more loyal to the mob? And giving up those guys, he has to turn his back on everything. [41:21] The union and the mob. And so I can see where he, whatever he knew, [41:25] he was not going to say a word. It would be to his advantage. He has no, they didn’t have a hammer on him. Wasn’t a criminal. They didn’t have a life sentence hanging over his head for anything. They did have, they did prosecute Chucky on a federal case. It was a small time thing. He took some, maybe took some gifts from a, from an employer in his role as a union guy, some small gifts. And then he had also got caught up in a cargo theft case, which is all documented in the book, Office of Connection. But the law enforcement did have a couple of cases that they could apply pressure onto Chucky. But he didn’t say a word, and he just went to prison and served his time. He didn’t have to serve too much time. He was only in for about a year, I think. It was a low-level felony. But he just, he’d never thought once about turning state’s witness. He just went and served his time and got back out and went on with his life. [42:25] Yeah. It’s those 50 and 75-year sentences that’ll make the right attorneys. You get even, I used to say, when they came up, those sentencing guidelines for cocaine dealers, you could make a guy talk about his mother when he’s looking. He’s 40 years old and he’s looking at a 50, 75-year sentence. Yeah. I do have to say, though, if there’s one guy that might, and there was a few of them who went and served a hard time. Yeah, a long time until they’re old. Rather than give anybody else up. And I think Chucky would have been one of those guys. I do. Yeah. [42:57] Having been raised by sylvia pagano he was just so committed to that culture and those traditions and that way of life and and omerta yeah sylvia even had almost a kind of a halfway making ceremony for chucky she arranged for the top guys in detroit when he came back to detroit from kansas city in the early 50s tony giacalone put together a little event where chucky walked into the back room of grecian gardens restaurant in detroit and all the top guys were sitting around a table and he made a pledge of loyalty to them at that time and then he sat down and broke bread with them and he didn’t prick his finger and burn a card and he wasn’t made into the family but it was all halfway a little bit and they did that for sylvia and because they just valued her so much they respected her and they needed her they she was the connection to their most valuable asset, which was Jimmy Hoffa. So that tells you a little bit about how much respect they had for Sylvia and also for Chucky’s unique role. Here he is. [44:05] He’s he’s the son of charlie banagio’s low-level chauffeur yeah and yet he’s sitting down with guys like meyer lansky in florida he’s sitting down with all the top guys in detroit chicago inu acardo rica rosanova all these top guys in chicago then he would sit down with them on behalf of jimmy hoff he was he probably i say in the book that he probably had more chucky o’brien the son of, Banagio’s chauffeur probably had more sit-downs with high-level mobsters than Nick Civella did. As Hoffa’s representative, that was the life. And he knew how to handle that kind of thing because he was raised by Sylvia. So he knew how to say, what not to say, how to behave himself in those types of meetings. So that came naturally to him. And he was Hoffa’s gopher. He drove in places. He took Hoffa’s wife to her medical appointments. He did low-level stuff like that, but he also did more important work, more sensitive stuff, like sitting down with mob bosses and relaying information back and forth, just like as Sylvia had taught him to do. [45:16] That’s fascinating. I tell you what, guys, Frank Hayde, Hoffa’s Connection, the story of Sylvia Pagano, the Ken City girl at the center of the mafia’s alliance with the Teamsters Union. I might have links in here. You better get this book. This is untrod territory. Unplowed ground, as we used to say on the farm. This is fresh stuff that you’ve read. There’s so many books out there about Hoffa and his disappearance that they just want to, come on, we can’t do this. I can’t do this again, Hoffa’s disappearance. You’re never going to find his body. You’re never going to figure out exactly who killed him. Nobody’s going to talk, and anybody that could is dead. But this unearthed some really fresh, interesting information about Hoffa and his connection with the Italian La Cosa Nostra in the United States, the entire United States, really. Yes. Thank you, Gary. That was a very nice little summary of it. And I really appreciate you. You’ve had me on your show before, my other books, and I listened to your podcast. Can’t get enough of it. You do terrific work. All us wire trappers love you, man. And we all appreciate you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Are you still doing the, are we still buying you cups of coffee and that kind of stuff? Yeah, you can always buy me a cup of coffee and hit the donate button. [46:29] I forget about doing that. I’ve been doing this so long and I got a few guys that hit it regularly and some never do. I do this for the pure joy of it anyhow, but it helps to have a little extra money coming in now and then. When you were selling books yesterday, you love writing this book. You love all that research and putting it together and educating people, but it’s nice to get paid for it too. [46:50] It’s a small-time racket, but hey. It’s a small-time racket. Another interesting thing, Frank, we were talking about people doing time, getting so much time, and trying to force them to talk. Yesterday, Frank had a program at the library, and we had a local guy who was a subject of his last book, Mafia Dreams, who was a mob hanger-on guy when he was a young guy. And he got caught up in a murder, an accidental murder in a way. That it’s a long story and you have to get mafia dreams to learn about it. The next generation of the wannabe. [47:25] Italian mafia guys in kansas city and so that guy was there he did 25 years 25 years for what we call felony murder another guy he transported a friend of his to a drug by only the guy killed the man was selling the or tried to kill the man that was selling the drugs and the fbi had it set up and ran in and shot and killed the kid who almanese had carried up to the drug ripoff and And so they charged this driver with felony murder, and he did 25 years, just got out about four or five years ago. He could have talked. He had enough to buy him a lot of grace on that 25-year sentence, and he did every minute of it. He never said a word, and it was hard time. It was state time here in Missouri. Yeah, I think that’s true. I think he is representative of Kansas City in a way, because I do believe that in Kansas City, the Code of Emerita persisted longer than most places. And yeah, when you’re 24 years old, I think he was 24 at the time that he was sentenced. Maybe he was 25 and you get sentenced to 25 and a half years. [48:38] And you have the chance to whittle that down by giving up information on your friends. And you don’t take it, and you choose to do the 25 and a half years, that’s hardcore. And he did, and those are the best years of his life that he’ll never get back. But he is out now, and he’s making a legitimate living and keeping his nose clean and just trying to make up for a lot of lost time. Yeah, he is. 25 years will straighten your mind out, won’t it? Yeah. Man. All right, Frank. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Hey, thanks again, Gary. Don’t forget to donate Bob the Bob Gary cup of coffee, y’all. Thank you. Okay, Gary. Okay, Frank. That was great. Talk to you later.

Transcribed - Published: 1 June 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with author Frank Hayde to explore his latest book, Hoffa’s Connection. Hayde, a Kansas City native and noted mob historian, brings forward a largely overlooked figure in organized crime history—Sylvia Pagano. The conversation centers on Pagano’s rise from Kansas City to Detroit, where she operated at the intersection of organized crime and labor unions under Jimmy Hoffa. Known for her effectiveness as a union organizer, Pagano infiltrated workplaces, signed up members, and quietly maintained ties to powerful mob figures. Her ability to navigate both worlds made her a key behind-the-scenes operator during a volatile era in American labor history. Hayde details Pagano’s role in helping broker alliances between the Mafia and the Teamsters during a turbulent strike, marking a turning point in the relationship between organized crime and labor. Drawing from FBI wiretaps, he reveals candid conversations that shed light on her relationships with influential mob leaders like Tony Giacalone and Moe Dalitz, emphasizing her strategic importance across multiple crime families. The episode also explores the life of Chucky O'Brien, who grew up surrounded by Hoffa and organized crime figures. Through Hayde’s research and interviews, listeners gain insight into the generational impact of mob ties, as well as the strict code of silence that governed both mother and son. Beyond individual stories, the discussion expands to the broader national network connecting crime families and labor unions. Pagano’s reach extended well beyond regional boundaries, illustrating how organized crime leveraged union influence across the country. This episode offers a fresh perspective on the enduring mystery surrounding Hoffa’s disappearance by examining the deeper historical context—and the overlooked players like Sylvia Pagano who helped shape it. It’s a detailed look at power, loyalty, and survival within the American Mafia. The book is Hoffa's Connection: The Story of Sylvia Pagano: the Kansas City Girl at the Center of the Mafia's Alliance with the Teamsters Union  Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 1 June 2026

Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with former NYPD officer Jimmy Dennedy and NYC Brooklyn prosecutor Michael Vecchione for a gripping discussion on violent crime, justice, and redemption. Jimmy recounts the shocking murder of NYPD officers Rocco Laurie and Gregory Foster by the Black Liberation Army, while Michael reveals the challenges of prosecuting those responsible. The conversation then shifts to something unexpected—redemption. After retiring, Jimmy began working in prison ministry, where he witnessed firsthand how even hardened criminals, including mobsters, can change their lives. This episode dives deep into: The reality of cop killings in New York City The struggle to prosecute violent offenders Inside stories from mob cases Redemption and transformation inside prisons Get the book Hard Guys Cry. If you’re interested in true crime, mafia history, and real law enforcement stories, this is an episode you don’t want to miss. Subscribe for more mafia history and true crime stories every week. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. [0:00] Hey, all you wiretappers, good to be back here in studio, Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective and now turned podcaster. And I have another retired cop here on the show, Jimmy Dennedy. Jimmy, I tell you what, I had it down, Dennedy, like Kennedy. And our friend who’s been on here several times, Michael Vecchione. Welcome, Michael. Welcome, Jimmy. Thank you very much for having us, Gary. Thank you. All right. Michael has several books out there. He’s, he’s prosecuted the mob. That’s how I got onto him. He prosecuted the, he had something to do with the mob cops, Louis Eppolito. And I can’t remember exactly now. I should have made a note on that, Michael. What was the name of that book? [0:48] The name of the book? Friends of the Family. Friends of the Family. Is that those two New York PD coppers that were in the pay of? Louis Eppolito and Louis Eppolito was one of the cops. And you know what, Gary? during the, when Jimmy, when you talk to Jimmy, Jimmy has a kind of a, an odd situation regarding Louie Eppolito. And, and it’s a good story. I think he should tell you, tell your listeners. All right. Great. We look forward to that, Jimmy and Jimmy Denity, who was a New York city policeman. And he has a book, tough dies to cry. Hard guys cry. Let me do that over again. Yeah. I said, I left, I had it written down here and he had Jimmy Denity is here with us. He is a retired New York City copper, and he has a book, Hard Guy’s Cry. So welcome, Jimmy. [1:34] Good morning. Thank you very much for having me. All right, Michael, you and Jimmy, did you guys work together a little bit on the job? Did you know each other back then? Yeah, we certainly did. We’ve probably known each other now for maybe 45 or more years. I got to know Jimmy because I got assigned a case involving, unfortunately, the death, the murder of two New York City police officers who were assigned to Jimmy’s precinct at the time in Bed-Stuy. And it was a case that had been tried twice before I got it. And there were hung juries in both of the cases. And the DA at that point was going to just simply decide to not prosecute it anymore. And the head of the policeman’s union went to the DA, the district attorney, and said, listen, just give it one more shot. So I was at the time the head of a group called the Major Offense Bureau in the Brooklyn DA’s office. And I got, I’ll never forget this. I was sitting at my desk and the boss of the unit, the bureau that I was part of, came into my office and said, come with me. We’ll go to see the DA. [2:41] I didn’t know. I thought maybe I was in trouble for some reason, but I sat down and he said, listen, I want to give you one more shot. I want to take this case to trial one more time and you are the guy that we want to do it. So I was happy to do it. I tried a lot of cases by that point. And, and the best part of the whole situation, Gary is I met Jimmy Danity. That was, he, we became fast friends and I got to tell you a little funny story. He had been involved in the two other trials. [3:11] But when he sat down with me, the first thing he said to me was, or one of the first things was, do you eat lunch? I said, yeah, of course I eat lunch. Why? He said, the guy that tried the case before you and the one before him, they didn’t eat lunch. And by the time the afternoon came, their energy was all waned, had waned. And he said, so here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to have lunch on your desk every time you come back for the lunch break from the trial. And he did. There was a sandwich waiting for me every day when I came back, and he is the guy that brought it to me. But before the trial, we went out. Me, Jimmy, and detective from the Homicide Bureau, who was assigned to the case. [3:57] Tony Martin, went out to the scene. And again, another one of these scenes, which I’ll never forget. The scene was in the middle of Bed-Stuy on Troop Avenue. Jimmy, that was the, yeah. [4:10] Willoughby and Troop. Willoughby and Troop. So we’re on the street and the three of us are standing there right on the sidewalk. And we look around and I said to Tony, did you hit every one of these buildings looking for witnesses? Because there was a problem with the case with the witnesses. One had died in a very strange way. And so he looked around I don’t know if you remember this, Jimmy And he pointed to a building Diagonally across from the spot Where the two cops were shot And he said, Mike We never went into that building, And Jimmy and Tony went into the building, canvassed it and came up with two new witnesses. And so it was a wonderful experience working with Jimmy. He was a hard worker. He really was tied to this case in the sense that these guys were his friends. They were two guys who were gunned down for really no reason by a member of the Black Liberation Army at the time who was part of the Attica riots here in New York. He was actually one of the guys who started the Attica riots in New York. And he was out and he was with another guy. And we believe that they were going to meet another one of their fellow. [5:27] I don’t want to call them gang members, to set up a robbery. And that’s why they were in Brooklyn. And the case had so many ups and downs and twists and turns. And it was something which I obviously will never forget. But the best part about it, I’ll repeat myself, is that I met Jimmy Denity. And he and I have been friends from that point on until today. And so let me just get to the book because Hard Guy’s Cry to me was a labor of love. It really was. I got a call one afternoon and I’m sitting out on my deck and Jimmy calls me and we just got to talking and he asked me about doing a book about his life and his story. And I said, it’s great. There are lots of books out there about cops and street cops and what they’ve done on the street. He said, so he said, oh, but he started to now expand on it. And then he told me the second part of his career, which was the prison ministry in the federal prison and a state prison here in New York. And I said, Jimmy, you buried the lead. That’s the part of this book that I can sell to a publisher. Because Gary, you probably know this. You probably interviewed these guys who do books when they retire. This was just going to be one of those. Jimmy’s career on the street was terrific. [6:47] The only problem was there are lots of guys who have books out there like that. So when he told me the story about his prison ministry, I was working at the time with a partner of mine, Jerry Schmetterer, who has now passed away. And we both talked about it and we said, this is definitely a story. This is definitely a book. And it’s been a long journey, Jim, until we got to this point. We’ve had COVID. We’ve had the Minneapolis, the guy in Minneapolis who was killed and agents saying to us, nobody wants to publish a book about a good cop. Nobody wants to do that. You can’t sell this until I didn’t give up. I really didn’t give up. And I took the proposal and I rewrote it after Jerry died. And then I sent it out to a couple of publishers and one of them grabbed it and said, yes, I want to do this. And then believe it or not, Gary, his publishing company hit the skids in terms of being able to spend money. He went out of business. So I had one more shot and I gave it to the publisher of my novels. [7:55] And she finally is the one who said, yes, let’s do this. And then here we are today. [8:01] It’s really, again, I said this before, but it was a journey of love. It really was to tell this guy’s story. and we, I know I’m repeating myself, but we became such good friends that our families got to know each other. I went to Jimmy’s house for holidays. We really just became very good friends. And here we are. And I’m so happy that I was able to write this book because I really believe that the people who read it will say, wow, this is a great guy. This is a great guy. And he is. Interesting. Hey, Jimmy, I got a couple of questions for you. Now, you worked, that was the Rocco and Lori case, if I remember right. And everybody who worked big city policing at the time, that scared the dog shit out of us. It was like these guys just laid in wait for a couple patrolmen to walk by, stepped out and shot them. That was my impression. And I worked that kind of a neighborhood. And we were jumping. We were pretty jumpy for quite a while. And it wasn’t solved for a while. We knew it was some kind of a political act, or at least that’s what we’re led to believe. Did you guys feel the same way in New York? Let me just stop you for a second. The case that I did with Jimmy was Norman Cerullo and Christina Soames years later. The one that you’re talking about, Rocco Laurie and Gregory Foster, was much earlier. [9:21] Jimmy was involved in it because he was a good friend of Rocco Laurie. They went to the academy together. But I’m sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to make sure that we were talking about the right thing. [9:33] So that kind of a case, you actually went through two of them. So tell us about your feelings about that. Did that, how did that affect your dealings on the street? I was in the academy with Rocco Laurie, right? And we had both come out of the Marine Corps at the same time. And we worked out together. We boxed together. And some of the guys were slacking off. The guy’s name was Mr. Clean. He was the instructor. He would say, okay, now you’re going to box with Denny or you’re going to box with Laurie. Of course, they were slacking. We weren’t slacking. Oh, God. That was me. They said, Jenkins, go over there and box with one of those guys. No brother in Lime. [10:12] So we became close we we knew his wife he knew that time it was my girlfriend but that was my wife we had gone out to dinner and he was a really good man in the academy i won the gun for physical fitness he won the gun for overall excellence and we got pictures with our guns together and stuff. So I was working at midnight with this guy, Victor Grillo, nice guy. And a job came over. Cops shot in Manhattan. We were in Brooklyn. It’s on the other side of the bridge. So we’re saying, wait. And that became the ninth precinct. That’s where Rocco worked. So we used to call him the Rock. I hope it’s not the Rock. And it turns out it was him. These guys executed him. They were basically a domestic terrorist group. They were robbing banks. They were killing cops for no reason. They just walked past them, turned around, opened up on them. And they shot them all over the face to the groin. And then they took their guns and shot them. And some of the guns actually wound up out in St. Louis or in West Area. [11:16] So did it affect me? Absolutely. I became, I don’t want to say callous, but I was very leery of everybody. [11:26] And I started, my niche was guns. I locked up a lot of guys for a lot of guns. But anything to do with it, Black Liberation Army or anything, I used to accumulate information, intelligence information, and my locker was full of it. I’d lock up a guy, and they used to have years ago the little address books. I used to take their address books, and they would ask me information, the FBI, the Major K-Squad, Jimmy, have any information on this guy? And which I did many times, right? Fast forward several years later, I’m out, and I’m having a few cocktails, and then i drove back to the precinct the 79th precinct to meet a friend of mine bobby perry, and while i was at the front of the desk there’s a place they could check your messages if anybody calls you messages so i’m checking my messages and it came over shots fired then it came over cop shot then it came over two cop shot then i drove down to my civilian car right it was dark, and it was like help you know radio card door is open you know I mean blood all over the place he also shot his friend right and he’s laying it dead with a gun in his hand his blood all over the place it was a nightmare so let me figure this out but now everybody name others coming down because he’s cop-killing students a doubleheader so to speak and then I see the blood going across the street and the blood stops. [12:53] So obviously somebody was shot. It’s not our guys. And then I assume he got into a car. [13:00] So I’m trying to figure, is he going to go to the Spanish neighborhood or deeper into the black neighborhood? And I said, let me go to the hospital. So I drive to the hospital to see if they need blood or anything. And out of the corner of my eye, when I passed Lexington Avenue, I see there had been a car accident. A guy hit parked cars. I kept going. And then I told Mike, you know, my father gave us a game when we were kids. It was called Game in the States. at a map of the united states and you had two little electric wires and you plug one into the state and there’s a list of capitals on the other side and when you hit that the light would go on you got the right answer and as god is the lord a light went off in my head just like it was the right state capital yeah went to the hospital and they did you know and then this guy paulie has ever seen him he’s crying he was in plain clothes anti-crime i said paulie listen to me Two things. Once, I want to come in the car. I’m going to go back to the scene. Because when I got there, there was a Spanish guy on the pool across the street. And he was a little biggazy type guy himself. But he used to give me information. He used to give me information on his competitors. Yeah. [14:10] Yes. So when he saw me, you know, he ran. Right? I wanted to come back and talk to him. But on the way back, I said, Paul, I’m going to stop at this accident scene. This is, it’s just there. Yeah. Go back there. Ambulance is starting to pull away fire truck was there pulling away so i went over there they said it’s an accident scene the guy’s injured i said what kind of injury is it the guy said well he dressed his wound because he won he refused medical aid this guy so i said i just dressed his wound i saw undress the wound let me look at it i’m not undressing the wound i went over and i just ripped it off and it’s a gunshot wound yeah right yeah so all he had a radio calls the sergeant down and they bring a witness from willoughby avenue she comes down she says that’s the guy who killed the two cops so we get him put him in the ambulance right in the ambulance he’s a big boy this guy right and he goes reach and grabs my gun from my holster so now it’s like an arm wrestle for the gun between me him and paulie saracena and during this arm wrestle necessary force was used and the necessary force was used until he dropped the gun or he got the gun from him. Goes to the hospital. He has a Derringer behind his belt buckle and he has police handcuff key. [15:38] These guys are the real deal. Yeah, that’s a real deal. They train for this stuff. They associate but others that train they shoot you know what i mean so it’s just uncanny that rocko was my friend and he was murdered in a double police homicide and then a few years later i lock up a guy from the same team that killed two of my friends you know it was a nightmare and then we went to trial and that’s how i met mike and it’s a very. [16:09] It’s pressing on your brain. Yeah. Something like this happens. And then, and I don’t have to tell you, Gary, but then you get other cases. So you’re making more gun arrests, but you still have this. You know what I mean? It’s, it’s tough. It’s tough. But it was. I just want to interrupt for one second. One of the, Jimmy mentioned her. They brought a witness back to the scene to identify the, the bad guy. And, uh, and she was a great witness. She was there when the shooting occurred. She was actually moving into the building that the shooting happened in front of. And so the case was, we had a couple of, she was the best eyewitness to the case. And as Jimmy and Tony Martin, the detective who were assigned together after the actual arrest, because we had, they had to get the case together and look for more witnesses, et cetera. [16:58] They went one day to see this particular young woman to talk to her and see what was, if everything was still good, if she was okay. Turns out she was in the hospital nobody knew this she had gone into the hospital we were told because she had a cold she died in the hospital gary from a cold which is what we thought turns out she had encephalitis but the thing was at the time we said who goes into a hospital number one with a cold and who dies from a cold so we at that point not me but i wasn’t on the case yet, but others. And then when Jimmy told me this later on, I said to myself. [17:42] It’s got to be some connection to the bad guys. Maybe they poisoned her. Maybe they did something and we looked into it. It turned out, Jimmy, what was the disease that she had? I think she had herpes viral encephalitis in the brain. It’s a possibility that it can be induced. Yeah. So that’s what we looked at. And the medical examiner at the time of the death never really looked. The DA who had the case at the time thought, ah, this is a slam dunk. We had this witness, that witness. Jimmy arrests the guy and he’s got the bullet, which another thing happened. He wouldn’t allow the medical people to take the bullet out of his leg. It was the cop’s bullet. Yeah. So we wouldn’t, he wouldn’t let him do it. So we had to go with a, an x-ray of the bullet at the trial instead of the bullet itself. But it was, it’s a case with, as I said before, excuse me, many twists and turns. And it’s the whole story is in the book. And I don’t want to take away from Jimmy’s story here, but I have a legal question. You couldn’t get a search warrant to take the bullet out of a person. Is that? [18:51] We tried, and you know what the judge said? No. Uh-huh, okay. I just, I never ran into that. I’ve heard that before where the bullet stays inside and you can’t get it. I just. [19:03] I tried. The judge wouldn’t give us the search, the ability to search, quote unquote, which meant taking the bullet out of his leg. Anyway, so that’s where we, that’s where we met. And it was, it was quite a case. And Jimmy, I understand you, you go through your career and you see all these horrible things and you’re harding yourself. And you know, the title of your book, hard girls, hard boys, hard men cry. I don’t know why I got hard guys cry. I don’t know why I can’t remember. I should remember from Norman Mailer’s tough guys don’t dance, but hard guys cry. And so you harden yourself all those years, but then something happened in your life. Apparently that changed, changed that. I know after I retired, partly what happened to me is I became a lawyer and I started dealing with people from not particularly criminals, but many times relatives of people who had gone to jail. And I worked for public defenders and really got to know people on the other side and realize that we’re just two sides of the same coin many times trying to get along and trying to get by. So what happened in your life that changed that, your attitude? [20:11] When I retired, there was an old man who was a farmer, and it was like a late-year-type situation. This farmhouse was falling apart. The second floor was owned by raccoons. He had electricity in one room and no running water, but he was the calmest, nicest, most spiritual guy you ever wanted to meet. Almost no teeth. He had one tooth. And there was Louis Adamski. We used to call him Louis the farmer. So I used to take care of Louis. was taking over my house for Thanksgiving, Christmas, driving down this long driveway, see how he’s doing. And I didn’t see him for a while. So I drove down the driveway one particular day and I said, Louie, I haven’t seen you. You haven’t called. He said, he had bladder cancer. I said, really? I said, wow. He said, you had two surgeries. I said, you’re going for follow-up treatment? And he said, I’m supposed to go every 90 days, but he had no insurance, zero, no Social services, nothing. And the doctors were suing him. And they wanted his farm. He owned one-tenth of his farm. It had about 80 acres. But it was heirs. Everybody in his family had passed away. I said, Louie, you got to get follow-up treatment. So there was a city that’s not about a half hour away called Newburgh, New York. And there was a urologist I was familiar with. So I told him the story. This guy has nothing. He said to me, if you will drive him, I will treat him like the president of the United States. [21:40] So for two and a half years, just about every month, sometimes twice a week, it all depends when his visits were, I would drive Louie. So it was like an all day affair almost because I have my own business, so I don’t show up for work. What do I care? So I take care of Louie all this time and my friends are patting me on the back saying, oh, you’re Louie’s angel. So one particular day we go in and… [22:03] He, if Louis checker, he calls me into the, uh, his consultation room and he says, so your friend’s cancer is back. She got to be kidding me. He said, yeah, I feel it on his prostate. He said, he has someone for biopsy Friday. This was on a Wednesday. I said, I don’t know how he’s going to get there. It’s an old day. I said, doc, listen, I’m married to this guy for two and a half years. I said, I’ll take him. He said, you sure? It was an old day. I said, doc, I don’t care. He said, all right. He said, I’ll tell you what, as long as you’re going to take them, your PSA is just borderline high. He said, I feel there’s nothing on your prostate, but if you’re going to take it, let me give you a biopsy too. I said, fine, I don’t care. So I take, we both get the biopsy. The next Wednesday, he calls them both of us in. I have cancer as well, worse than his, right? So he got radiation. I went out to New York City. There was a top flight surgeon in Columbia Presbyterian Hospital. And I told him the story like I’m telling you now. So he said, you got to cut that out of there. You don’t want it in there. So they cut me a half. They took it out. And in the recovery room, he comes in and he says to me, you weren’t Louis’ angel. Louis was your angel. He said, you had a C-grade cancer. It was starting to spread, but I got everything. [23:15] So he said, you would have been dead about a year and a half. He said, because you had no signs, no symptoms. By the time you had the symptoms, it would be all over. Yeah. So it changes the way you think that I was invited to go on to this, a religious retreat weekend, a Cresillo weekend. I didn’t want to go. I’m not a holy roller. It’s not my cup of tea, but I socially boxed in like friends. So then your wife has to go too. So my wife, Noraline said, oh, I’ll go. And I said, oh, yeah, now I got to go. So I go on this week. it’s it’s thursday friday saturday sunday you can’t bring a watch you didn’t have cell phones then right so you’re stuck there so i went and i hooked up for a couple of other ex-marines and this actor mike was poorly he was on the sopranos so i sit in the back like we’re just going to ride this one out oh we can write it out it turns out that it was very moving, it’s very moving and people spoke that thought they were like punks i knew them indirectly they had quite a story to tell and then, weekend was over and on the way back it was November and I was telling Mike I rolled the windows down it was like spring, spring in my mind you see things differently like these computer generated pictures you see what it is but if you stare at it long enough another picture comes out within the picture and kind of life came out of life for me I saw things differently, Then these guys asked me to go into the prison. [24:42] Listen, I say, listen, you’re a carpenter. You’re a plumber. You don’t know what these guys are. I’ve thrown these guys down stamps and shot a guy at my house. Crazy. Again, I’m socially boxed in. So we go up to the prison. It was 41 of us, 41 of us. It’s called the Kairos. It’s an interdenominational… [25:01] Prison ministry. So I sit in a big circle, piece of paper, it passes around. When you get it, you have to say who you are, where you’re from. So I get it. I said, my name’s Jimmy Danity. I live in Orange County, New York. I’m married. I have two children, and I retired from the Oak City Police Department. They booed me. I told Mike, it was like an old dog growling. Yeah. Yeah. I said, what am I doing here? So the next day, because you had to sleep up in the prison too, The next day, you’re at a table. So you have an inmate on either side. So there’s like maybe nine people at the table. And there’s three of us, six of them. And don’t ask them what they did. Never referred them as a prisoner, as a resident. They were like, guys, I grew up with their neighbor. I said, what did you do? You stupid. So it becomes, it was a religious weekend. But also, it’s practical life. And you guys were good. You know what I mean? I got along well with them. So we did every day and it was friday saturday sunday they finished and that’s it i’m done i’m done with this i said i’d do it and i’m saying i wonder if any of my guys would show up to a wednesday night they have a wednesday night follow-up at this organization i wonder if any of my guys would be there so you know what let me show let me go to one wednesday right all my guys. [26:22] Oh, my gosh. And that was the only, Gary, that was the only table where all of them showed up again. So that’s why he knew that this was the right thing for him. I’m sorry, Jim. I just want to know. And so this was still in the prison. Yeah. Back up the prison. Yeah. And they invited these guys. If you want, you can come to this follow up. At that time, every Wednesday at six o’clock, they could go into the chapel to this particular group meeting. So I just want to see if any of my guys are going to show up. They all showed up and then the volunteers drop off and then i said let me do another wednesday, and another wednesday and it comes like everybody wants to talk to you it’s like when you go into the pet store where puppies say they want you to pick them like pick me and it you get you wind up with a group i tell mike they’re my guys and then you wind up it’s a spiritual thing no question about it right it’s brand involved and everything but you go through life with these guys and a lot them have a lot of crazy situations yeah and one guy is a mafia guy and i think frankie and he wants to say jimmy this new guy he wants to talk to your jug it’s all right so he takes me behind this little interdenomination altar they got there right so i said hey don’t you he says remember me i said no he said you should you broke my nose so i said when did i break your nose He said. [27:46] Yeah, in the park on 53rd Street where we used to play hockey. He said, your brother, I remember you. I mentioned his name, his last name. I said, you were messing with the park attendant. I slammed a basketball in his face. You know what I mean? He never forgot it. They told Frankie, yeah, he was crazy before he went to the Marine Corps. I’d make guys in there. [28:04] I worked. Yeah. The drug cases that they had. [28:09] You know, I knew who their bosses were. I testified in Philadelphia against one of these guys’ big bosses. And it’s just, it was like almost an inside straight. It was like meant to be. It was meant to be. And then my parish priest, so then I started, I was in the denominational night. The Catholic guys had nothing. I started a Catholic night with a few other good guys, my friend Brian and a few other guys, right, on Thursday. So now I’m going there Wednesday and Thursday. So my parish priest said, the state maximum security doesn’t have anything like this. Let’s start one there. So I’m going Wednesday, the federal prison, Thursday to the state max. You know, and it, I did it for 25 years, two days a week. Wow. And if the guys in Brooklyn, where I was a cop, knew I was doing this, they say, wrong guy, definitely. Somebody else, you got the wrong guy. Yeah. It’s the way the good Lord leads you. Now, something changed in your life and it’s not like you had any control of it. It just, it changed. You opened yourself up. It seems to me like it. And you just didn’t have any choice but to go down this path. And you know what it is also, Gary, it’s also like you’re preventing crime. You’re doing the same thing only from the inside. From the inside, you want to change the way they think, the way they act. And there’s a million things I could tell you how I was able to change things in a prison. They’re going to stab somebody. The guy who was a rat. [29:32] And they didn’t like him. I didn’t like him. And I told him, listen, I like the guy. He said, you like the guy? Don’t get involved in this. I said, do what you want to do. I like the guy. They never touch the guy. Because if they do something like that, then they’re going to hurt you. [29:46] Gary, I think Jimmy should tell you, he’s talking about the effect he had on these guys. What really was the point of the prison ministry was to essentially make these guys, I think, better people and to change their lives. I think you should tell him, ask Jimmy, tell him the story of the Boston mobster because this one, this story has, it really hits home as to exactly what effect he had on someone who was one of guys that you might have on your show. someday. This guy was a really bad guy. And he was up there with Whitey Bulger, et cetera, in Boston. So I think it’s worthwhile to tell the story. And it really hits home in terms of how effective Jimmy was after being effective on the street, locking up these guys, what he did with the prison. So if you have a bit of time, I think it’s worthwhile to hear the story. Yeah, let’s hear it. I always want to hear stories about mobsters, anyhow. Yep. Go ahead, Jim. We were up at the federal prison, and it was during the holiday season, right? And the volunteer chaplain was Father Paul Papara, and he was giving a talk on forgiveness. So we had all these wise guys. It was a mess. They had all different guys. This particular time, a couple of wise guys, they had their arms folded, and they said, Father, you want me to forgive the guy that ratted me out? [31:05] He’s home with his family, and I’m here doing X amount of years left on my bid. So I raised my hand. so I said listen if this guy is lying and put you in prison for no reason shame on him he should rot in hell but if he just exposed what you did anyway you know you did it if you did it the good lord see you live in a fishbowl the guy just exposed you for what you did that’s, You have no bitch here, pal. Jimmy, this guy Jimmy, he’s a different name than him. Jimmy stands up and he says, listen, I’ve been in jail. I’ve killed people. I don’t want to, I forgive anybody. I want forgiveness. I’ll forgive anybody. So that was it. Eventually, Jimmy, a couple years later, goes home. So he called me at my office a couple years later and he wanted me to write a letter of reference to work at the docks with Homeland Security. I said, I don’t know how to write it. Put down that I was a prisoner and just what you thought of me. No problem. So I met him in the prison, stuff like that, right? [32:03] About a year after that or so, I get a call from him again. He says, hey, Jimmy, you got time? Hey, Jimmy. I said, good. I got all the time in the world for you. He said, what’s up, pal? He said, I was on a train platform. He says, and I see this guy. Him and his associate tried to kill me. They had stabbed me 13 times. He said, I already took care of his friend. And I walked up to him like a face-to-face with him. Then he recognized me the guy turned white and urinated all over himself because he knows he’s there jimmy says to me i put my finger on his face and i told him you know that thing you’re worried about right get out of here i forgive you i get the fuck out of here now and he says to me jimmy it would have been easier for me to clip this guy and to forgive the guy but i forgave him, And I’m saying, Jimmy, I’m so proud of you, I can’t, just, and he, for him to call me to tell me how he responded to that situation, you know, which was completely out of character to the old guy, the old Jim. He was very proud of himself, and I was very proud of him. [33:09] So that’s the story Mike has told. It was the story, quite frankly, Gary. Didn’t he have one of the Westies in there with him? They were some particularly brutal crew in New York City. Yeah, yeah, he did. [33:25] We had a few of them up there. We had Jimmy Coonan, who started the Westies. Oh, okay. Jimmy was there, and I was friendly with Jimmy because I knew guys that he knew. The guys at Otisville Prison is a high medium. [33:38] Lewisburg is a max so when guys behave even a max they could come down to the media so when he came down he never came to the services and stuff we were talking all the way on the side but another fellow was a Westie a tough guy you know what I mean they would, drive through jewelry stores, 50 miles an hour go inside and rob everything but they would go in there before with their girlfriends looking good dressed nice they knew where this stuff was and they would take everything and he wound up getting locked up for almost like a Lufthansa type thing at the airport only they got caught so he was at my first weekend in the prison and we became very close friends and I tried to help him and he responded very positively, and he’s sitting in a circle there’s a cross, whoever has the cross has the microphone, nobody interrupts when you’re done, the next guy talks, he was talking and we finished, the Spanish kid so the Spanish kid is talking and he’s talking, so I told him what are you talking for Rich he can’t be talking like that the kid’s talking so he didn’t come for a few months then he comes back right and we’re sitting there talking and then he has a cross and he puts his head down. [34:54] And he starts talking and he says, you know, something happened to me. You can’t explain it. You had a Spanish kid in the next cell, right? It was a new guy. They robbed the sneakers and the kid had no sneakers. I know he’s got his head down. Now I’m thinking maybe he robbed the kid’s sneakers, right? He says, I gave him my sneakers because I had an extra pair. And as he’s telling the story, his head is down. The floor is gray, but getting darker, the teardrops. He’s telling the story he’s crying and then he says maybe I’m not all bad after all yeah I said how can you think of yourself like that he eventually goes home so, we my wife Norley and I get invited to his wedding which is a no-no but the guy was home so and the wedding is on Mulberry Street in Little Italy. [35:46] Yeah so we go down at the wedding and we’re like the oddball there but He could introduce us to enough people, you know, and if you see change in people, it’s wonderful. If on the street, if you go to these religious retreats, people go jumping out like a gazelle. But in prison, if an elephant jumps in it, it’s a miracle. Yeah. I mean, if you see somebody that thinks that they’re ugly, they’re not ugly inside. So I found it very rewarding. And. They, I didn’t think they’d respond to retired law enforcement, but they responded well. Yeah. Because I spoke their language. Yeah. So it lasted 25 years, Gary. Yeah. I’ve got a couple of guys here in Kansas city that it’s not a spiritual kind of a thing, but I’ve become friends with them. And one guy told me, he’s fine. He said, he said, I can talk to you and you understand what I’m talking about. He said, all the rest of the people in my life anymore, cause he’s out of the life. He said, they don’t understand what I’m talking about. He said, I don’t have to get back into life, but I can talk to you and you know, you know, the people I’m talking about, you know what I’m talking about. I said, yeah, I do. [36:56] So obviously in case it was pretty obvious that we were, when we started to hear all these stories, when he told, told Jerry and I the story of the, the mobster who was crying because given the sneaker, that’s where the books, the title of the book comes from, art guys cry. But there’s one other guy in there that you should ask him about. And that is we had this, I don’t even know what to call him. He was really an oddball guy, a criminal in New York. He was a rich guy who owned a lot of, he ran art galleries and collected art galleries and collected paintings and got into the art world and was advising rich people as to what art they were buying. And it turns out he was basically a sadist. And he had another guy with him who he and the other guy wound up, he didn’t get charged with this, his partner did, wound up killing somebody. And when they found the body buried laying in the woods in upstate New York, he had one of those. [38:02] Sadomasochistic masks on him, his black mask. And this individual was one of Jimmy’s guys and he was a hardcore, am I right, Jimmy, in terms of not wanting help at all. He was just the kind of guy who, you know, if you help them, it was going to be a miracle. And he did. He helped them and it’s a miracle. And it’s worthwhile to tell the story about this guy. His name was Andrew Crispo. He’s no longer alive. And he was all over the newspapers here in New York City because of the whole masochistic, the sadomasochist activity that he was involved in. And that the picture of the dead body with that black mask on was all over the newspapers. And this guy, we have his picture in the book. If you see him, it’s butter wouldn’t melt in his mouth. He looked like the nicest guy in the world. Businessman. Turns out he was really one of the worst guys in terms of how he treated people. And Jimmy finally got to him. It was, to me, one of the more miraculous transformations when I heard all of the stories was this one because of what he was on the outside and what he became after Jimmy had him and he got out. He did not repeat his life the way that he was before here. Chris Bowe was a tough guy, right, Jimmy, in terms of getting to him? [39:28] Andrew, Sky Andre brought him down to one of our groups. And he asked me if he could bring his friend down the shirt. Everybody’s welcome, of course. And you’ve been around tough guys your whole life. Everybody’s a tough guy. You’re a tough guy. Everybody’s a tough guy. This guy had no muscle tone. He was like ashing in color. He looked like a raccoon. He had like rings around his eyes. And he was like creepy, creepy. So he came. And then he came for about seven years all the time. You get to know him, right? And he got grabbed for that sero-masochistic murder, but they couldn’t prove it. He got locked up, attempted kidnapping, the three-year-old daughter of the federal trustee. That’s why he was in jail now federal jail but he if you make a long story short he, doesn’t know who his parents are right and i’m not bleeding on i’m just telling you the way it is, he was dropped off at an orphanage as an infant and i was there for sentencing and this is what the judge said mr crispo he said before i sentence you i’d like you to know that i researched your history as a newborn you were dropped off in an orphanage right you remain there for 18 years where you were repeatedly beaten up and raped and. [40:47] But after leaving there, you managed to raise yourself up to get on the top of the art world, even owning a world-renowned art gallery in New York City. He said, for that, he said, I give you credit. However, then he banged him for seven years on the other thing. But he came down, and he had nothing spiritually. And if you sit with him and you talk with him, he kind of listened. He came around. [41:13] Like I told Mike, there was another guy. colombian guy his wife used to bring his daughter to work all the time so he came into the group a little late and he’s crying and then i said what’s the matter he said he said i’m not gonna see my daughter for two weeks i said well the comment told me once there’s a price for loving the price for loving is the absence of love you have to experience the love to miss it mr andrew who was sitting on our group andrew could you tell him a little bit about yourself oh yeah he said see the visiting room that you were in with your wife and the child, I’ve never been in there, and I’ll never be in there. And they said, there’s nothing worse than being alone, than being alone and no one cares. [41:56] And he came, and the rings went from his eyes, and then he became involved in all this other stuff. And he actually became a kind guy. He got involved with the church and things like that. And then he eventually went home. I’ll tell you the money he had. You need the money for an appeal? He sold one painting for $2.46 million. Oh wow the attorney’s fee that’s just one thing he had money but he had nothing yeah he had nothing and then when he went home he used to correspond you know and he’d write beautiful things thanks for the prayers thanks for your wife how’s your dog it’s not the same guy but he wasn’t like like what he’s tattooed tough guys he was like creepy tough and at the end when he left my opinion He was not. So if you can help somebody, it’s nice to help somebody if you can. Yeah. That’s interesting. That’s a true shift in the personality and to give somebody some spiritual hope in their life that they can, from what you’re describing to what he was to what he left when he left. That’s amazing. Exactly. That’s an amazing story. [43:01] There it is. Cry, The Journey of a Tough Cop from the Mean Streets to a Prison Ministry, Jimmy Dennedy and Michael Vecchione. Jimmy and Michael, I appreciate you guys so much for coming on and telling these stories. And guys, there’s a lot more stories just like this and better in the book. I’ll have links to get it down in the show notes. [43:22] And guys, you got anything last words you want to say? Anything you left out? [43:28] Gary, listen, keep getting those pension checks. [43:33] Yes, I will. I told my wife, Nora, put my feet in potting soil. If my toenail grows, that’s a sign of life. Keep getting that check. Really? [43:44] Thanks so much, Jimmy. All right. I just want to thank you. You’ve been terrific. And I hope that, I really mean this when I say this, people who get this book and read it or listen to it or however they want to get it into their, their mind, they’re going to love it because this guy’s story is just fantastic. And we touched on a few things, but we didn’t really touch, we didn’t get into the real meat that that’s there. And it’s, it was a, again, a pleasure to do this. So I’ve got one guy, I got one guy I talked to that has prison stories. I tell you what guys, there are so many great stories that come out of the penitentiary. It’s just, it’s amazing. I think part of these people don’t have much else current to talk about, so they tell stories from their past, and you get some great stories coming out of the prisons. Thanks a lot, guys. Gary. Thank you. God bless my friend.

Transcribed - Published: 25 May 2026

Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with former NYPD officer Jimmy Dennedy and NYC Brooklyn prosecutor Michael Vecchione for a gripping discussion on violent crime, justice, and redemption.   Jimmy recounts the shocking murder of NYPD officers Rocco Laurie and Gregory Foster by the Black Liberation Army, while Michael reveals the challenges of prosecuting those responsible. The conversation then shifts to something unexpected—redemption. After retiring, Jimmy began working in prison ministry, where he witnessed firsthand how even hardened criminals, including mobsters, can change their lives. This episode dives deep into: The reality of cop killings in New York City The struggle to prosecute violent offenders Inside stories from mob cases Redemption and transformation inside prisons If you’re interested in true crime, mafia history, and real law enforcement stories, this is an episode you don’t want to miss. Subscribe for more mafia history and true crime stories every week. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 25 May 2026

Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins examines the rise and influence of Louis “Streaky” Gatto and the Genovese crime family’s powerful New Jersey faction. Drawing from a 2004 New Jersey Crime Commission report, this episode explores how Genovese crews operated across multiple counties while controlling illegal gambling, loan sharking, and waterfront rackets through intimidation and organized violence.   Gary breaks down the structure of Gatto’s Bergen County crew, including the involvement of his son Joseph Gatto and son-in-law Alan “Little Al” Greco. The discussion details how the crew maintained control over bookmaking and gambling operations and how prosecutors later tied key members to murders connected to their criminal enterprises.   The episode also dives into the federal RICO prosecution and the dramatic courtroom testimony of witness Robert Belli. Gary explains allegations that associates of the Gatto crew attempted to pressure and intimidate witnesses before testimony, including claims involving the infamous “evil eye” or malocchio. Prosecutors argued that subtle intimidation tactics, courtroom stares, and indirect threats were all part of an effort to influence testimony.   Another major focus is Moe Brown, a reputed associate connected to the Gatto organization. The episode explores how prosecutors used recordings and testimony to connect Brown to the defendants and how his conduct in court became part of the government’s intimidation narrative.   Finally, Gary examines the subsequent criminal cases involving Joseph Gatto, including offshore sports-betting operations, convictions, prison sentences, and the eventual decline of the family’s gambling empire. The episode concludes with the deaths of both Joseph Gatto and Louis “Streaky” Gatto, marking the end of an era for one of New Jersey’s most feared Genovese crews. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 22 May 2026

Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins examines the rise and influence of Louis “Streaky” Gatto and the Genovese crime family’s powerful New Jersey faction. Drawing from a 2004 New Jersey Crime Commission report, this episode explores how Genovese crews operated across multiple counties while controlling illegal gambling, loan sharking, and waterfront rackets through intimidation and organized violence. Gary breaks down the structure of Gatto’s Bergen County crew, including the involvement of his son Joseph Gatto and son-in-law Alan “Little Al” Greco. The discussion details how the crew maintained control over bookmaking and gambling operations and how prosecutors later tied key members to murders connected to their criminal enterprises. The episode also dives into the federal RICO prosecution and the dramatic courtroom testimony of witness Robert Belli. Gary explains allegations that associates of the Gatto crew attempted to pressure and intimidate witnesses before testimony, including claims involving the infamous “evil eye” or malocchio. Prosecutors argued that subtle intimidation tactics, courtroom stares, and indirect threats were all part of an effort to influence testimony. Another major focus is Moe Brown, a reputed associate connected to the Gatto organization. The episode explores how prosecutors used recordings and testimony to connect Brown to the defendants and how his conduct in court became part of the government’s intimidation narrative. Finally, Gary examines the later criminal cases involving Joseph Gatto, including offshore sports betting operations, convictions, prison sentences, and the eventual decline of the family’s gambling empire. The episode concludes with the deaths of both Joseph Gatto and Louis “Streaky” Gatto, marking the end of an era for one of New Jersey’s most feared Genovese crews. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. Transcript [0:00] Hey, all you wiretappers, good to be back here in the studio of Gangland Wires. A little extra I’m going to throw in here. I did this interview with Scott Deitch about Jerry Katina, and I got a lot of. [0:12] Comments, a lot of reactions to that show, a lot of New Jersey mob fans, Genovese mob fans out there. A guy named Carmine, Carmine something, he had some other numbers after his name. Carmine commented that I should do a show on Louis Streaky Gatto. That was a New Jersey capo who was one of the Chin’s best earners in the Genovese family. He had a crew down in New Jersey. And if you notice, one more thing, I was going to mention this before. I got a new hat. Now, check this out. [0:46] Hope you can see that. Got the gangland wire insignia on it. Now, this is my official gangland wire hat. [0:56] Louis Streaky Gatto, the New Jersey Crime Commission report in May 2004, reported that the Genovese family maintained five crews headquartered in New Jersey. Each was overseen by a capo, of course, and each of the four New York-based crews, this is right out of The Sopranos, about 40 soldiers and more than 400 criminal associates who were active in New Jersey. [1:21] They reported that the family operated in the northern New Jersey counties of Hudson, Essex, Union, Bergen, and Passaic County. They also had gained strength in Middlesex, Monmouth, and Ocean counties. Ocean, is that down in Atlantic City? I don’t have a map in front of me, so I’m not sure. The crime report stated that the Genovese family controlled the largest bookmaking and loan sharking rings in the New York, New Jersey metropolitan area. And the family maintained a strong influence on the Port Newark, Elizabeth, and Hudson County waterfronts. This report also identified the family consigliere Lawrence Little Larry Dentico as a person with the most extensive familiarity of the family’s New Jersey operations because he had been the top aide to the former consigliere and New York, New Jersey operations chief, Louis A. Bobby Mann. I did a show on Bobby Mann and Irwin Schiff and some of those plots, I don’t know, sometime in the last year, I believe. This 2004 report identified the five capos at that time in New Jersey, and they were Tino Fouimara, who died in 2010, Angelo Prisco, who died in 2017, Joseph Gatto died in 2010, Silvio DeVita, and Ludwig Bruchy, who died in 2020. [2:44] Now, Streaky Gatto, Louis Streaky Gatto, he was always the favorite money earner of Vincent de Chin Gigante. Before he was promoted to captain, his New Jersey crew was led by a capo named Peter LaPlaca until the mid-1970s, and that’s when Streaky Gatto took over the crew. Gatto was the boss of Bergen County with the help of his son, Joseph the Eagle Gatto. And his son-in-law, and a guy who keeps coming back in this thing, and who was his top enforcer, Alan Little Al Greco. I noticed a comment. Somebody said that he was really half Polish. I think his mother was Polish and his father was Italian. Somebody correct me on that in the comments, if you will. Controlled large illegal gambling, loan sharking, bookmaking operations in Bergen and Passaic counties. [3:33] These three guys used murder, violence, and fear to click on these rackets and control everybody who was a bookmaker. You couldn’t be, like Chicago, you couldn’t be a lone wolf bookmaker making money without these guys getting a piece of your action and working with you on it. They made sure that other rivals didn’t take advantage of somebody that was [3:55] under their protection. Gatto and Alan Greco, Little Al, were indicted on two counts of murder for the murders of Arthur Belli and Vincent Mastretti. They also were alleged to be behind the murders of a guy named Jack Handsome Jack, Ciaranella, Johnny Lombardi, and Peter Adamo. 1991-1990. [4:20] Streaky Gatto and Alan Greco were sentenced to 65 years. Streaky Gatto’s son, Joseph Gatto, was indicted on racketeering charges in the same RICO prosecution, but he only received 30 months. There was an appeal to that trial, and we learned a little bit about their brazen intimidation tactics, how it works. There’s a guy named Robert Belli, whose brother had had a gambling operation. His brother, Arthur Belli, was one of the persons in that RICO case that was murdered by Streaky Gatto. They called on Robert Belli to testify about the extortionate takeover of their gambling business. And he said that little Al Greco once told him, he said, things are going to be different now. And then shortly after that, Robert Belli’s hot dog truck was blown up and he was beaten by two men with baseball bats, typical mob extortionist takeovers of a small-time gambler, a bookie, a guy that had his own book of business, his own customers. As a result, he just gave it up. But he also testified that Belli disappeared and now we’re in trial for Belli being murdered by Streaky Gatto and planned on returning to the business just before he disappeared. [5:37] Now, in cross-examination, it turns out that he had been spoken to by somebody in the Gatto families because he all of a sudden starts agreeing with all the defense counsel’s suggestions, first of all, that the prosecutor paid him and pressured him, and all the local police and prosecutors involved in the case were corrupt. I’ll redirect. The prosecutor tries to show that Belli had become hostile to government and accommodating to the defense because he’d been intimidated. They asked Belli about a guy named Frank Sesta, who was known as Mo Brown. We’ll refer to him as Mo Brown. He was always known as Mo Brown. Belli stated that after defense investigators, Gatto’s lawyers and their investigators handed him into a meeting with the defense counsel, Mo Brown showed up and wanted to take him to the meeting. And then when he wouldn’t go with Mo Brown, Brown tried to pressure him into letting one of his associates drive him to this meeting and again to a pretrial hearing. He wouldn’t do it. He knew better than that. He took a ride with a government investigator. He did have to go meet with the defense counsel, of course. Anybody that’s going to be a witness against you, they have to make them available to the defense investigators and counsels, defense counsel, in order to do a deposition or just listen to what, see what they got to say. [6:59] He said Brown approached him and told him about a job interview. He said he’d take him to his job interview just before he testified at trial. He said Brown had discussed the case with him more than once and once said, isn’t it a shame that Little Al got 60 years in this case and he did get 65 years? And this all was coming out after they got their 65-year sentences, Little Al and Streaky Gatto. They just kept coming back. And then during the trial, the prosecutors got testimony from Belli that Moe Brown had been in the courtroom and standing directly in front of him several times and that he looked at him with an unhappy look. [7:36] Of course, they objected, the defense counsel objected to all that. They also introduced evidence that this Moe Brown was really closely connected to Streaky Gatto and Little Al Greco. They’d sent him into surveillance during the social club, the Lodi Social Club, and sent him with other people in the defendant’s gambling business. They also had a tape of a conversation between Louis Gatto Jr., Stryker Gatto’s son, and little Al Greco, talking about Mo Brown, that they were real familiar with him. So they connected Mo Brown to the Gattos and to Little Al Greco and then showed how he was then in court and was given the witness, the evil eye, the malokia, I think they call it, something like that was in The Godfather. And that he had tried to befriend the guy before he testified and told him about a job and tried to give him rides different places. They even mentioned that how… [8:39] They asked the witness Belli about three occasions during the trial when Al Greco had given him a look. One was before he testified, and Greco passed by him in the hallway, and he gave him a look. Defense has strenuously objected to this. It’s irrelevant, and you can’t really say that look was a bad look. The defense counsel strenuously objected to these points, but it was overruled. The second look came when Belli was in the back of the courtroom him waiting to testify, and Greco, Little Al Greco, just turned his chair around just to give him a look, and the third time was when Greco stood up and then turned over around and looked at Belli during the sidebar while Belli was on the stand. Prosecutor then asked Belli if Greco had ever looked at him that way before, and Belli said, well, he had. He said when he told him, Little Al Greco told him things are going to be different just before he beat him up, or had he beaten, And, of course, they strenuously object to all this. In the end, it did not do any good. In the end, little Al Greco still got his 65 years, and he didn’t get a new trial or anything. [9:45] A little story in regards to little Al Greco, the guy that was son-in-law to Strique Gatto and was right under him. It seemed like he was his main kind of enforcement guy, guy out dealing, maybe underboss, under people trying to, guy that deals with people on the street. He made a connection with a notorious New Jersey con artist and mob associates, Tom Giacomaro. They wanted him to come in and be a made man, supposedly, in the 80s. And, you know, he didn’t want it. He was independent. He knew better because once you come in, you know, they’re going to take everything from you. And he was quoted as saying, you know, I don’t want to kiss the ring. Everybody’s kissing Streaky Gatto’s ring, he said, except me. Jack Amaro was in the trucking business with two of Streaky’s crew, and they were making a lot of money. Streaky wanted to sit down. He wanted to bring this guy in because he was earning a lot of money. Giacomaro remembers that they met at Vesuvius in Newark. I mean, it sounds just like the Sopranos, doesn’t it? He described the table and how it went down. He said, Streaky sat at the head of the table with his sons right next to him, Joseph and Louis Jr. And his son-in-law, little Al Greco. [11:02] And Giacomaro remembered that Streaky was a skinny little guy who hardly said anything, but he said he had an ego big enough to suffocate the entire restaurant. Over again, little Al took care of the business during this lunch. He pitched Giacomaro on Friday. Him joining the family plan. And Streaky, during this time, he made a big production of putting some $100 bills between his knuckles. He held up his fist when the waiters came and they kissed his ring and took the bill and said, oh, thank you, Don Luigi. Thank you. During this lunch, he remembered that little Al once said, you know, we want to open the books for use. We got big plans for use. He knew what that meant. He knew he was then going to have to give him a percentage of his earnings and let them use his businesses to launder their money. Finally, he says, you know, Giacomaro says, I told Streaky and I told Lil Al, I said, you know, what can you really offer me with that? I don’t already have. He said, it was like everybody just quit breathing. [12:02] Just a dead silence fell over the table. He said he thought Streaky Yaddo was going to leap across his pastas and stab him in the eye with a fork. He didn’t, you know, he’s in a public place. And, you know, he would later say, you know, I was going to use them for everything they had, but never be one of them. You know, I’ll infiltrate their world all the way at the top if I can, [12:22] but I ain’t never being made because the only crime boss I want to answer to is myself. Joseph Gatto, Stricky Gatto’s son, was released in 1993, and he took over control of his father’s crew. He expanded the crew’s gambling operations and introduced, you know, brings it in the 21st century, so to speak, of the use of pagers and cell phones. And by 1999, he gets convicted again on some illegal gambling charges and took a plea deal. And at that time, he did admit that he was a capo of the Genovese family. You know, gambling is getting lesser, lighter sentences by then. He had a pretty light sentence. He gets released again in 2003. But a year later, he’s indicted in 2004 for running something called Catalina Sports, which is an offshore wire room in Costa rica bosley this thing was taking in 300 to 500 hundred thousand dollars profit per week and these gatos they were they were money earners that’s for sure that conviction gets overturned and you know by now 2005. [13:22] They did try him again in 2008. I don’t even know what happened. He’ll die in 2010. He’ll never go back to jail again. And nobody cares about gambling by then because it’s getting opened up all over the place. Streaky Gatto, who originally started talking about his father, died in prison in 2002. He never got out after he got that 65-year sentence from his RICO and murder convictions. So that’s a little bit about Louis Streaky Gatto. [13:48] And Carmine, thanks for suggesting that. So I hope y’all like this story. I hope y’all like my hat with my Gangland Wire logo on it. Talk to you later. Thanks, guys.

Transcribed - Published: 22 May 2026

Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit Detective Gary Jenkins sits down with returning guest Scott Deitch for a detailed exploration of one of the more understated yet influential figures in organized crime—Jerry Catena. Scott Deitch, known for his deep research and engaging storytelling, brings insight from his books Cigar City Mafia, Garden State Gangland, and his upcoming release Jersey Boss. The conversation moves from Tampa’s mob history to the inner workings of the Genovese crime family, with a focus on Catena’s calculated rise through the ranks. 🔍 Episode Highlights Scott Deitch’s Mafia Journey Deitch outlines how he became one of the more respected voices in mafia history, driven by a fascination with overlooked mob figures and untold regional stories. Who Was Jerry Catena? A key but often underreported power broker, Catena rose during Prohibition-era influences and mentorship, eventually becoming a major figure within the Genovese hierarchy. Mob Influence in New Jersey & Tampa. The discussion connects Catena’s operations to broader organized crime networks stretching from Florida to the Northeast. Hollywood vs Reality. A look at how The Sopranos drew inspiration from real mob figures, including possible parallels to Catena and New Jersey crime families. Las Vegas & Gambling Operations. Catena’s involvement in early Las Vegas casino ventures reveals the mob’s hybrid model of legitimate business and illicit skimming operations. The Businessman Mobster. Unlike many of his contemporaries, Catena relied more on relationships and financial acumen than violence, aligning himself with figures like Frank Costello and Longy Zwillman. A Different Ending Catena’s relatively peaceful retirement contrasts sharply with the violent ends typical of organized crime figures. Personal Side of a Mob Figure Stories of Catena’s love for golf and generous personality add nuance to an otherwise complex criminal life. Tampa Mafia Tours Deitch shares details about his immersive mafia history tours in Tampa, offering listeners a chance to experience this world firsthand. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. Transcript [0:00] Hey, welcome all you guys out there. It’s good to be back here in studio of Gangland Wire. I have one of my old friends here, one of my oldest friends in the podcast, Mafia podcast business. I interviewed Scott a long time ago. I went down to Tampa and went on his mob tour in Tampa. And we had a cigar before we went on the tour, and he’s got several really great mob books. So it’s Scott Deitch. It’s really great to have you back on the show, Scott. Yeah, it’s great to be back, Gary. And you missed the most important part of the Tampa trip was we made the bet on the Super Bowl. Oh, yeah. I had to send you something, didn’t I? You had to send me some Kansas City barbecue. Yeah, I had to send you some barbecue. I forgot all about that. Yeah. I’m like a Las Vegas gambler. I’m always talking about how much I won. I never come back and tell you how much I lost. Never notice that. Gamblers never talk about how much they lost. [0:59] So anyhow, Scott, you’ve got several mob books. You’ve been on the show before. Tell us a little bit about your background and the mob books that you have. I know you’ve got another one on the New Jersey mob. You’ve got one on the Purple Gang and a couple other things. You’ve got a Tampa book. So tell us about that and the titles of them. And guys, I’ll have the links to these books in the show notes. Yeah, so my first book came out in 2004, over 20 years ago. That was Cigar City Mafia, History of the Mafia in Tampa. I’ve written a book on Santo Traficante called The Silent Don. He was the last longtime boss of Tampa involved in CIA mafia plots and figures into some of the Kennedy assassination theories. [1:44] Garden State Gangland, like you mentioned, which is a first overall overarching [1:48] history of the mafia in New Jersey. I did Hitman, which is a look at the East Harlem Purple Gang. And then my upcoming one, among others, which is Jersey Boss, and that’ll be out in May of 2026. [2:04] Jersey Boss, the rise of Mafia power, Jerry Catena. Now, I’m going to get this question. Let’s talk about The Sopranos first. Let’s get that out of the way. Does this have anything to do with Sopranos? Was Tony Soprano based on this guy or somebody else that was connected to this guy, the Cavalcante family? So funny, because I was asked that a few years ago for the Star Ledger, the Jersey paper I grew up with. And there’s one of the guys that a lot of people point to as part of the inspiration for Tony Soprano was Tony Boy Boyardo, who was the son of Richie the Boot Boyardo. And Tony Boy was close with Jerry Catina. And in fact, Jerry Cattino was Tony’s, the best man at Tony Boy’s wedding. So Jerry Cattino himself is not really necessarily represented in the fictional universe of The Sopranos, but certainly people around there and this Tony Boy connection with some of the aspects of Tony Soprano are part of that. And he came up under Richie the Boot, Beardo. And Richie the Boot, he was immensely successful, financially successful. And Jerry Cattino was too. He must have learned well at reaching the boots, the foot at his knee. [3:17] Yeah. And even more so than Richie the Buddha was Longy’s Willman, Abner Longy’s Willman, who was really another major mentor to Jerry Catena. And really see as Jerry falls under the tutelage of Longy’s Willman during the prohibition era, he starts becoming more of a racketeer than a gangster. And that’s under Longy sees the value of legitimate businesses and investing. And in fact, I talk about it in the book, a lot of people don’t really know much about the New Jersey mob’s investments in Las Vegas. And Catena and Longy Zwellman started investing in Vegas in the late 40s. So, yeah, I think Catena was fortunate to have, or I say fortunate for him in his underworld career, to have mentors like Boyardo and especially Zwillman who steered him out of the purely criminal and showed him the value of the legitimate side of business. [4:14] The legitimate side of business with mafia rules. Absolutely. Yeah. I had somebody ask me, well, why don’t you go into business and do a podcast with one of these mobsters? I said, I’m not going to do business with a mobster. They got their own set of rules, and I don’t understand those rules. [4:31] I know the regular business rules, but I don’t understand those mafia rules. Jerry was, I see in some of my old notes here from way back, that he was close to Frank Costello, and that’s one of the ways that he got into gambling, and he was part of the Genovese family. So talk a little bit about those early days of Jerry Catena. [4:53] Yeah, so he’s born in Newark in Down Neck or the Ironbound neighborhood. Starts, I’d say, starts coming under law enforcement, screwing. He gets in trouble with the law around the prohibition era. He starts off as a truck driver, works his way up. He’s involved in illegal gambling at that time, then starts to get involved in the vending machine business. But he ends up becoming associated with members of the Genovese crime family. And along the way becomes very close friends with Frank Costello. After he’s made, oh my God, I’m drawing a blank, 46, he gets put under Willie Moretti’s crew. So he’s really becomes a core part of the New Jersey faction of the Genovese crime family. Interesting. [5:41] With that, I have to assume that he looked after their gambling interests down there as much as anything. Was that his initial focus, or was he more into extortion? No, gambling was definitely one of the—yeah, it was actually funny you mentioned hijacking. One of his earliest arrests was for hijacking trucks of cigarettes in the 1920s. Then he moves into illegal gambling. [6:07] He’s involved in bootlegging during Prohibition, but afterwards into illegal gambling. The other thing, he becomes very involved in the unions around the Port Elizabeth and the Newark Port area. And the interesting thing about Catena is even though he becomes associated with guys like Frank Costello and obviously Vito Genovese in the New York faction, he’s very much a New Jersey-based crime figure. So most of his operations are in New Jersey. Fort Lee, New Jersey at the time becomes a real hotbed of gambling. They have these nightclubs, places like Dukes. Jerry Coutinho becomes involved with that. Yeah, I would say it’s pretty accurate to say that illegal gambling was certainly one of kind of the primary revenue sources for him. [6:51] Yeah, and that’s more white collar crime. Now, he’s going to move on to going into legitimate business with the great A&P story, which is a great story. Whenever you’re ready, we’ve got to talk about that. Now, you mentioned about having the points in the casinos out there. We know that when Costello was shot, they pulled a piece of paper out of his, he had a piece of paper in his pocket that indicated what the take was on a particular day at the start. So was that, how did these guys from New York get into Las Vegas so early? [7:25] Longy’s woman starts going over to Vegas and probably, I think the connection there is Longy’s woman was close with Meyer Lansky. So Meyer Lansky, obviously out there with Bugsy Siegel, when they take over the Flamingo, the Billy Wilkerson deal, all that, then obviously Bugsy Siegel was killed. Meyer Lansky really gets his kind of foothold in at that time. Longy’s woman comes soon thereafter. after. And by the late 40s, early 50s, Jerry Catena’s there, involved in skim operations. And predominantly in the late 50s, after it opens, is the Fremont Hotel in downtown, which is still there on Fremont Street. It becomes really one of their major cash cows for Jerry Catena and his operations. And I’ll take a little segue here, because I think one of the really, interesting and important things about jerry Catena which differentiates him from a lot of the other mafia guys was he was very ingrained and embedded with jewish organized crime figures like long east women like abe green guys like that that are out of newark so his operations in vegas parallel a lot of the involvement of jewish gangsters in vegas as well so Catena really, takes a little bit of a different path than a lot of the traditional Mafio out of New York and New Jersey at that time. [8:50] What I find interesting, because like the Midwest mobs, they got into Vegas by guaranteeing getting these teamsters loans for non-Italians, front men, if you will, to build the casinos or make the existing casino bigger. But these early New York guys, I talked to an expert on that early development of Las Vegas. They said those farmers and ranchers in Las Vegas, they didn’t know how to run casinos. but the mob guys who’d had carpet joints, Frank Costello and Mayor Lansky and people like that, they knew how to run a casino. So those Jewish gamblers out of Cleveland, all those guys then moved out to help the farmers and ranchers that, that pull, had the strings of political power at the time and wanted to make money off the gambling and showed them how to run the casinos. Is that kind of how, would that be how they got in out there? Cause they weren’t guaranteeing teamsters loan at that point. [9:45] No. So yeah, you’re right about that too. And they’re bringing out that expertise of running these gambling operations in New York, New Jersey at that time. And it’s really the fortuitous timing as post-World War II, the tourism boom, Vegas starts booming, you get the entertainment, it all becomes this ecosystem that’s growing, keeps growing. And like you mentioned, later on when the Midwest guys come in, that’s when the Teamster Central Pension Fund, and they’re utilizing that. But so it’s interesting to see all the different ways that the mafia guys were moving in. There’s some other guys moving with the entertainment that comes over into Vegas as well. Yeah. Interesting. [10:22] So how did he, he didn’t just sit back and bring the money in. How active was he on the streets? Was he a street guy? If something needed to be done, would he go out and do it? Or did he hire somebody to do it? I guess would be my question. After Willie Moretti is killed, Jerry Catena takes over his crew. [10:44] That’s when he starts to become noticed not only in terms of respect and stature within the mafia, but law enforcement. He’s called in front of the Kefauver Commission in 1950. He’s called in front of the McClellan Commission in 59 again. And so as his star starts to rise in the 1950s, his friendship with Frank Costello, his relationship with Vito Genovese starts to grow. And in 1957, after Frank Costello is shot at, the famous shooting, The Majestic on the Upper West Side, that Vito Genovese becomes boss. He appoints Jerry Catena as underboss. And there’s a quote somewhere. I forget who was on a wiretap. And Genovese is there. I kind of wonder why Jerry was made underboss. And Genovese says something to the effect of this guy controls Las Vegas, meaning he’s a big earner. So he’s bringing in a lot of money to the family at that time. That’s when Coutinho’s stature really cements itself. Really? And I believe he was at Appalachian with Vito Genovese, too. Yeah, they’re in the same club. Which tells you right now his position in power. [11:54] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, he stopped in the car. And I believe Bufalino was in the car as well with the same car. Oh, really? So he was a nationally known guy. By 1957, he was known all over the East Coast, for sure. And then in Las Vegas, too. So he was a mover and a shaker that kind of kept his head down, too. He’s not like Costello Genovese. He’s not exactly a household name. No. A lot of people don’t really know that name exactly. Yeah, and that’s why I wanted to do a book on him, because he’s a fascinating character, very influential, but not at the top 10 or 20 list of most mobsters. Generally, people know pop culture, and even in the mob world, he’s not as well-documented or as well-known. He must not have gone into New York and partied a lot. [12:43] He’s no John Gotti, was he? No, he did like nice restaurants in New York, but he stayed a little bit more under the radar, that’s for sure. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. So tell us a little more about him. We’re up to 1957 and he’s got interest in the casinos. He’s been to Appalachian. He has solidified his position. [13:07] And we got that great A&P store extortion. What does he get into after that? There’s something else about the North American Chemical Company and detergent company that he’s muscled in on. So he becomes acting boss of the Genovese family after Vito goes to prison. That’s the argument I put forth in the book. And there’s a lot of evidence supporting that from wiretaps and stuff. He’s also getting much more involved in a lot of bigger legitimate businesses, gaming being one. But he starts investing in companies. One of these is this North American chemical company that you refer to. And they make this liquid detergent that is pretty caustic and not a lot of stores won’t carry it. So he’s trying to work with unions to pressure some of the major stores like A&P to carry this product. [13:59] Even though he’s the acting boss and he has a lot of close confidants and probably the closest Tommy Ebbely in terms of stature, although they don’t always get along. Jerry Catena really relies on his younger brother, Gene Catena. And he puts Gene in charge of this A&P thing. And rather than doing it the quiet way that Jerry likes it, Gene actually starts recruiting people to bomb A&P stores and actually results in the murder of a couple A&P managers of the stores that were refusing to stock this. And from a couple sources I spoke to, Jerry was pretty incensed about this and shooed his brother out pretty hard because this is out of character for kind of the way he was running things. [14:42] And then Gene dies in 1967 and the AP thing fizzles out after there. But I think it’s, yeah, because if you look at like the history of how Jerry does business, it’s very much an outlier in terms of just not only the outright [14:56] violence, but violence against people that aren’t involved in organized crime or the mob. What other business interests did he have over these years? I think probably one of the biggest that he gets into is Bally Gaming. And the name Bally, everyone knows the name Bally. It’s synonymous with gaming. They had their hands in fitness centers. They own Six Fleck and Bally’s still a big name, even though the Bally company now is basically Bally in name only, but let’s rewind back to the early sixties. Lee gaming becomes this really big manufacturer out of Chicago. It’s a subsidiary of Lion Manufacturing. And the owner of Lion Manufacturing dies suddenly from a heart attack. [15:36] And the company goes into a trust, a bank trust. But there’s a salesman in their Chicago office named Bill O’Donnell. And he sees the value in the Bally name. So he puts together an investment consortium to buy Bally. And he goes to his biggest distributor, which is a company called Runyon. And Runyon’s based out of Newark. And the three primary owners of Runyon are Barney Sugarman, Abe Green, who grew up one of Longy’s Women’s top men, and Jerry Catena. And Jerry was very involved in the day-to-day business of Runyon. So Jerry puts together an even bigger pool of investors, and they basically buy Bally. And this coincides with the introduction of an electronic version of a slot machine that Bally was manufacturing. Oh, really? So Bally really starts to take off. And the interesting thing about this, again, there’s not one other mafia guy in this investment group. Nobody from the Genovese family, no Italians. It’s a bunch of old Jewish gangsters and other affiliates that Jerry puts together for this investment. And one of the interesting things is as Bally becomes bigger in the 1960s, Jerry just starts making more and more money. You can see on wiretaps that he doesn’t really want to be boss anymore. [17:01] He’s really into golf. He just wants to not be boss anymore. But anyway, he’s involved in Bally. He sells his shares in the mid-60s because Bally goes public. But there’s an enormous amount of information showing that he basically sold his shares. But Abe Green and some others bought additional shares that were really Jerry. So he stole it as his hands in Bally. [17:27] Valley. Interesting. He’s one of those guys. I met this wet guy once. He had an auto theft ring. And I said, dude, if you would take your skills, your organizational building, your brains and put it into a regular business, you’d do all right. So Jerry’s one of those guys, isn’t he? Yeah, for sure. If he put all his enthusiasm and expertise and organizational [17:48] abilities into regular business, then he’d do okay anyhow. And one other thing during this time too, he still stills his illegal operations going he still has the skim and he was getting forty two thousand dollars a month in the early 60s out of the skin for himself person that’s a lot of money and that’s not counting all the other stuff and one of the other interesting things that i found out through researching this is he did not take kick nobody had to kick money up to him he was self-sufficient he let everyone keep their own stuff so he unless he was involved in it he never took an envelope from his other ones, because he didn’t really need to. He had so much of his own stuff going on. So it’s another kind of interesting little detail. Yeah, he was a much-beloved boss. He probably saved himself a lot of trouble by not getting greedy. Yeah, and it’s funny, because he was very aloof, like I said. He didn’t necessarily want to be boss. And you hear on wiretaps, like. [18:46] Shift to carload and people timey ebbly just complaining about him they’re like this guy’s really aloof he’s not in touch you can’t get to see him this but yet nobody tries to make a move against him because i think even though he probably wasn’t the most ideal boss in their eyes in terms of being hands-on they realize they he’s doing okay he was very well respected and well liked and i think that went a long way huh interesting that which which makes me wonder what uh how did And where was Vincent Gigante during these years as he’s slowly but surely moving up? He must be eventually getting come up in right behind, under Catena. Yeah, so Gigante’s in New York at that time. Tommy Eboli’s, like the head, oversees a lot of the New York operations. You have Benny Squint Lombardo, who’s powerhouse behind the scenes. And then Genovese dies in 69. [19:44] Catena takes over for a very brief period but he actually goes to prison in 1970 and not from being convicted of any crime he gets sentenced to prison for contempt because he gets brought before the New Jersey State Commission of Investigation and he refuses to testify, and they jail him for contempt for almost five years Five years? Wow Yeah, in fact it’s one of the longest sentences ever imposed on someone for contempt and he’s ultimately freed by the Supreme Court You can look up, there’s a Supreme Court decision. It’s Catena versus something. I have it in the book. But yeah, so when Catena goes to prison, then the Genovese leadership continues moving forward. Emily’s killed in 72, and then Gigantes starts showing up in the picture by then. [20:29] Yeah, and he’ll move on up. So how did Jerry then, he’s done five years in the pen. Man, now what happens after he comes back out? Is he assuming he’s placed or does he start easing himself out? Use that as an excuse to get on out. Exactly. You nailed it on the head. Yeah, within less than a year, he sells his home in New Jersey. He already owns a place in Boca Raton. So he goes to Boca and really starts fading back playing golf, but he still keeps his, I don’t want to say consigliere because he’s not considered the official consigliere at that point, but he’s still very involved and people have want, want to come for advice or guidance. They’re meeting with Jerry. He’s seen meeting with like Sam The Plumber, the Calvo Conte, and these other guys. And one kind of weird thing, in 1983, there’s a series of both federal and New Jersey State police, the org charts that you see. And Catena’s considered a consigliere at that point, but he’s probably at that point semi-retired. And by the mid 80s, he’s completely retired and steps back from business. [21:43] Interesting. And he lives basically one of the few bosses that just retires on his own accord. Yeah. He didn’t retire into the penitentiary. He had never really come out until he couldn’t really do anything when he came back out. A lot of them ended up like that. Either that or dead some way, one way or the other. And boy, he came up through the growth, the huge growth of the mob up 50s into the 70s in the New York families especially. They really exerted a lot of power and grew during those years. So he saw it all, didn’t he? Yeah, he was born in 1902. So, you know, by the time he’s a teenager in his 20s, Prohibition starts. So he’s right there. [22:28] You know, when he turns 18, Prohibition starts. He’s right there through his adult life. And he lives a long life. He dies in 2000 at 98 years old in Punta Gorda, Florida. [22:39] And pretty much his reign in his life is the 20th century. He pretty much bookends the 20th century. So you’re right. When he hits his prime, his 40s, 50s, that’s when the mafia is hitting their prime. They hit their prime with the political contacts and the concrete club and all the construction in Manhattan. They’re all making so much money. You mentioned political context. That’s another thing, especially in the 50s and 60s, is Catena is very politically astute. And the Genevieve’s family themselves, they’re tied in with the mayor of Newark, the police chief. They have a state assembly or state representatives on their payroll. He’s on wiretap or his associates talking about these politicians they have in their pockets. So he certainly played the political game as well. In your research, did you run across anything that kind of got his take on the purported meeting in, I believe, in Philadelphia between Chicago and New York or East Coast guys where they agreed to divide up Las Vegas for Chicago and Atlantic City for the East Coast? [23:47] No, because by the time that he got out, Atlantic City just started. He was fading away. But here’s an interesting thing, though. His name really starts popping back up in the papers around 1977 when Atlantic City legalizes gambling. The reason for that is because Bally makes a bid to be one of the early casinos. And there’s a whole bunch of hearings that Catena’s name has brought up in relation to his previous ownership of Bally. And what’s interesting is that up until the mid nineties. And again, Catena is long retired. He’s in his mid nineties. Every time Bali reapplies for their casino license, Atlantic city, there is a line in there. And I pulled it from the gaming control board that says Bali is not allowed to give any payments to any companies owned by Jerry Catena or blah, blah, blah. So even though he’s long retired, he’s towards the end of his life. They’re still wanting to keep Jerry Catena out of Bali gaming. [24:46] I have a long memory there in New Jersey. Yeah. When they were getting ready to do the casino thing, we happened to have a, what we called a LEIU, Law Enforcement Intelligence Units, Bi-Zone Conference. And what that meant was the Eastern Zone and Central Zone met. They met in Kansas City and a whole lot of New Jersey state troopers and a couple of guys from the, whatever the county is there, Atlantic City, from the prosecutor’s office. And a couple other intelligence people, they were like telling us all those precautions that they were taking trying to keep the mob out. They were really working like hell to keep the mob out. And they really never exactly got it done. And I remember talking about that even the mob will get an interest in… Transportation companies that bring people from New York. Yeah. [25:38] The gambling junkets were a big business. And to that point down here in Tampa, the Tampa guys had junkets out to Vegas. Same thing as they weren’t involved in Vegas, but they control these businesses and were bringing gamblers out there and taking a little off the top. Yeah, we had a junket out of Kansas City, and that was the guy that ran the junket. That was the guy that was bringing the skim back from the Tropicana. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. So that was the cover they used. he, they called him the singer. He had a reason to go back and forth to Las Vegas. And they talked about that, how nobody paid any attention to him because he already had a reason to go back and forth. Oh yeah, that makes sense. That’s smart. As you guys, they think about it, but I have to think about everything because they got a big brother breathing down their neck. [26:24] Absolutely. Scott, you got any other stories that you want to tell guys about it that are in the book and Tyson to go get that book? Yeah. So just a couple other random things that I found really interesting. [26:36] Jerry Catena’s name was in the newspaper a lot in the 1950s, but not for any kind of mob stuff. He was an avid amateur golfer, and he actually golfed in a lot of prestigious tournaments around New Jersey and then later in Florida. And then a couple of people I spoke to, one guy remembers being a caddy for him and saying how Jerry was a very good tipper or tip him with 20, 50 bucks back then. That was huge. A lot. Yeah. But he spent about as much time in the golf course as he did doing mod business. He was all the way up in, you know, up until his eighties, he was a avid golfer, which I thought that was interesting thing. [27:13] Yeah. The other thing, too, is really just how he shows up in these little different pockets of mob history a little bit behind the scenes. And I think the other really interesting thing about Jerry Catena is he was a very soft-spoken, everyone I talked to, people that knew him, family, his old attorney, never raised his voice, never lost his temper, very low-key, very… And it was funny, he’s a Neapolitan heritage, which a lot of the Genovese guys were. But if you look at pictures of him, he looks Irish because he had really light hair and blue eyes. So he looked like a stereotypical Irish priest in some photos of him. But yeah, he definitely was cut from a different cloth, I would say, [27:57] of most of those mob guys, for sure. Certainly, I think if you were to pick a family for him to be in would be the Genovese family, because they always seem to have more of those racketeers rather than gangsters, whether it was Frank Costello or Luciano or whatever. Yeah, interesting. No Joey Gallows in there. No, yeah, no. [28:19] Like the Columbos. All right, Scott DeGay, it’s really been great having you on. It’s an interesting book, and I’ll have links to all your books down in the show notes, guys. You might want to get that Garden State Gangland. Garden State Gangland, yep. Garden State Gangland to give you the bigger picture about New Jersey boffy stuff, as well as more of a narrow view of it with the Jerry Catina book. So I really appreciate you coming on the show. Oh, one other thing I forgot to mention, and Scott and I talked about this when we first got on, is he does a mob tour of Tampa all winter long. So you guys from up north that go down to Tampa or go to Florida over the winter, you need to go down there and take that tour. I actually have an example of the tour on my YouTube page. You have to go up there and maybe search on my YouTube channel for Tampa tour. And I think you can find it so you can see what you’re getting into. Yeah. Yeah. Tampa Mafia tours. We do them generally September to end of April. In fact, we’re recording this towards the end of April when we have our final tours. Nobody wants to be walking around outside in August. I can testify. It’s a great tour. It was a lot of fun. Thank you. Appreciate it. It’s a good thing to do in the winter too. Yeah. For when you’re up north. All right, Scott, thanks so much. Thanks again, Gary. Always a pleasure being on.

Transcribed - Published: 18 May 2026

Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit Detective Gary Jenkins sits down with returning guest Scott Deitch for a detailed exploration of one of the more understated yet influential figures in organized crime—Jerry Catena. Deitch, known for his deep research and engaging storytelling, brings insight from his books Cigar City Mafia, Garden State Gangland, and his upcoming release Jersey Boss. The conversation moves from Tampa’s mob history to the inner workings of the Genovese crime family, with a focus on Catena’s calculated rise through the ranks.   🔍 Episode Highlights     Scott Deitch’s Mafia Journey Deitch outlines how he became one of the more respected voices in mafia history, driven by a fascination with overlooked mob figures and untold regional stories.     Who Was Jerry Catena? A key but often underreported power broker, Catena rose during Prohibition-era influences and mentorship, eventually becoming a major figure within the Genovese hierarchy.     Mob Influence in New Jersey & Tampa The discussion connects Catena’s operations to broader organized crime networks stretching from Florida to the Northeast.     Hollywood vs Reality A look at how The Sopranos drew inspiration from real mob figures, including possible parallels to Catena and New Jersey crime families.     Las Vegas & Gambling Operations Catena’s involvement in early Las Vegas casino ventures reveals the mob’s hybrid model of legitimate business and illicit skimming operations.     The Businessman Mobster Unlike many of his contemporaries, Catena relied more on relationships and financial acumen than violence, aligning himself with figures like Frank Costello and Longy Zwillman.    A Different Ending Catena’s relatively peaceful retirement contrasts sharply with the violent ends typical of organized crime figures.     Personal Side of a Mob Figure Stories of Catena’s love for golf and generous personality add nuance to an otherwise complex criminal life.     Tampa Mafia Tours Deitch shares details about his immersive mafia history tours in Tampa, offering listeners a chance to experience this world firsthand. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 18 May 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins interviews Eddie Inserra about the Boston Mafia. He is the author of Confidence of the Mob: The IRS Agent Who Took down the Mob – Then Advised Them, a deeply researched account of his grandfather, Fred G. Pastore, a key figure in early IRS efforts to dismantle organized crime. Fred Pastore was part of the IRS’s early “racket squad,” targeting Boston Mafia enterprises. His work paralleled the groundbreaking financial investigations that helped bring down figures like Al Capone, demonstrating how financial crimes could succeed where traditional policing struggled. Then, he leaves the IRS and advises the Boston Mafia. Eddie recounts how he uncovered his grandfather’s story through a remarkable archive of family documents, photos, and recordings. These materials revealed a complicated dual life: Fred was both a relentless investigator and, later, a trusted confidant to certain Boston Mafia figures. This paradox sits at the center of the book and this conversation. A major focus of the discussion is the “pinball racket”—a widespread illegal gambling operation hidden in plain sight within bars and storefronts. Fred’s investigations exposed how these machines generated significant underground revenue streams for organized crime, particularly in Boston. Eddie details the innovative and often risky techniques the IRS used to infiltrate these operations, including undercover work within corporations like Raytheon, where illegal gambling rings had taken root among employees. The episode also explores the institutional challenges Fred faced. His aggressive tactics and unconventional relationships eventually brought him into conflict with IRS leadership and political figures, forcing his resignation. In a striking turn, Fred leveraged his deep knowledge of organized crime to advise former mob associates—highlighting the blurred moral boundaries that often exist in this world.   Eddie adds a personal dimension, sharing memories of growing up around his grandfather and describing the cultural landscape of Boston’s North End, where family, community, and organized crime often intersected. These stories provide insight into how relationships between law enforcement and mob figures could be shaped by proximity, respect, and shared environments.  The conversation concludes with a look ahead at Eddie’s upcoming podcast, which will expand on these themes through interviews with former IRS agents, mob associates, and others connected to Fred Pastore’s extraordinary life.   This episode offers a rare look at the gray areas of justice—where the line between hunter and ally becomes increasingly difficult to define. Check out the book: Confidence of the Mob: The IRS Agent Who Took down the Mob – Then Advised Them, Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. Gary Jenkins: [00:00:00] hey, are you wire tapers? Good to be back here in the studio. Gangland wire. This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit Detective. Glad to be back in the studio. I have a man on the line who’s written a really interesting book called Confidence of the Mob, the RIRS agent who took down the mafia and then advised him. So that’s what’s interesting about this. Here’s a man. The, it was part of the early racket squad with the IRS intelligence who were the guys that went after the mafia and in all the different cities, most famously in Chicago, and took down Al Capone, and he ends up in a conflict with his bosses over informant and then. He goes into business as an accountant and ends up advising Jerry Angelo and some and childhood friends, really. ’cause he grew up in the north end of Boston. So this is his grandson Eddie and Sarah. Welcome Eddie. Eddy Inserra: Hey, thanks Gary. Glad to be here. Gary Jenkins: All right guys. Now there’s the book and I’ll have [00:01:00] links to it in the, the show notes as well as you can see the book over Eddie’s right hand shoulder there. You’ll get it. Now. First thing I wanna bring up about this book, Eddie, is I’m gonna ask you a little bit about how you got into this, but about this QR code you have in there, guys, there’s a QR code in there. I don’t know, about a quarter of the way in. Tell us about that and what was your idea to do there? Eddy Inserra: Yeah, so the QR code takes you to our website, which is it links to confidence of the mob.com. And this project started off as me interviewing a bunch of people about. My grandfather’s story. So I have all these audio clips, I have all these documents that I found in the box that my mother gave me that really had my grandfather’s complete career in there. So it’s more of a evidence-based website where if you scan that QR code, you can access some of the documents. Listen to some of the clips by the book, just learn more about the story overall. So it’s, the QR code is meant to be interactive, so you can take from what’s on the book into your phone and just explore more, [00:02:00] right? Gary Jenkins: Really interesting that with the new internet and you can do so much more and make your, what used to be just a hardcover. Paperback or hardcover piece of, a bunch of papers together and you can go onto the internet and you can find so much more with really not that much effort and a little bit of effort on your part. I know that I did something like that with a book I did. And it is a little bit of effort, but it’s not as much effort as is really, I think for that to further instruct people, teach people what that life was like for your subject. ’cause that’s what you’re trying to do, is you wanna tell people what. Your grandfather’s life was like, and so that’s I think it was just ingenious of you to doing that. I haven’t really seen that. I don’t think there’s probably other books that I didn’t notice, but I had not seen that before. Anyhow Eddie, let’s let’s go back. You’re the grandson. Fred g Pastor, tell us how you got into this, your earliest memories of this. Did you know your grandfather when you were a little kid and probably didn’t get the stories you wish you’d gotten? More than likely [00:03:00] I’d have him. But tell us a little bit about that. Eddy Inserra: Yeah, so he actually passed away when I was eight years old, so I got to know him for eight years. He passed away in 1988, and then, I knew my grandfather was always, when you see your grandfather, he is always happy when you’re, a little kid. One side of him, always happy, generous smile on his face, always laughing. Typical grandfather give you candy when no one’s looking. Things like that. So typical grandfather, I found out later on that his life was much more complex than I had thought. And when I was younger, he had an office. So I’d go into the office and I’d, everybody would be doing accounting work. He’d have probably about, he had about six or seven employees, maybe more at some, sometimes I’d go into the office and I’m just a kid running around the hallways and sitting at the desks. My father worked there as well. And yeah, I’m just watching them push papers and write down numbers and stuff like that. So I didn’t think it was too, I thought it was pretty boring. It was cool, but it was boring. But later I found out much more about him. Gary Jenkins: Interesting. Eddy Inserra: Yeah. Gary Jenkins: So later on in life, how did you stumble [00:04:00] across this whole dualistic life He had in a way I would maybe dualistic not at the same time but these two careers that he had how did you stumble across that? Eddy Inserra: There was a box that my mother had in her attic, and it was a, an old Florida citrus oranges box carton and overflowing with papers. And she, about 10 to 12 years ago, she gave it to me and said, Eddie, I want to give you these documents that your grandfather’s documents. I don’t know what’s in them, but there yours now. So I said, okay, great. And I pulled out a couple of documents and I looked at them. One was like an accounting ledger. E exactly what I expected. Some, some numbers and things like that. And I put ’em back in the box and I said, lemme put this on the shelf and I’ll take a look at the other documents some other time. So a couple weeks later, I go back into it and I pull out some papers and I start seeing profiles for big names and organized crime that I had heard of in the past. Jerry Angiulo, Raymond Patriarchal profiles on Racketeers Bernie [00:05:00] McGarry, doc Gansky, all these huge. Folklore names from Boston gambling and numbers and mafia times from the 1950s to the 1960s. I started piecing it together and I said and then I find a telegram in there to, to the White House Bobby Kennedy and JFK from my grandfather saying, I need to meet you at the White House right away regarding this Bernard Goldfine case that I’m working on. And I just started piecing this together and I said whoa. I never knew anything about the IRS side, but. He was really the tip of the spear. You mentioned like Elliot Ness, Al Capone earlier. It was the same sort of division, the intelligence division that he was working in, but he was in the Northeast District and it was, this was obviously after Capone that era, but next generation of, racket squad leaders, and he was the tip of the spear in Boston and the FBI didn’t have jurisdiction at that time to go after these racketeers. It was the IRS at that time. Later on, after he switched sides, so to say the FBI took over, but at that time, the IRS was the [00:06:00] potent weapon against these racketeers. So I’ve got all his documentation on investigations, case notes commendations it’s just really a treasure trove of, his whole career. And I pieced this together over years. There’s hundreds of documents, had to put a timeline together. Gary Jenkins: Really. Eddy Inserra: You’ve done investigative work, you know how that stuff works and I didn’t know anything about it, so it was just complete disorganized mess and had to pull it all together. Yeah. Gary Jenkins: The first thing you have to do is get a timeline. Eddy Inserra: Yeah. Gary Jenkins: That is paramount. When you’re doing something like that, you have to get a time. In order to keep things straight. Otherwise, it just becomes a, it’s just, you can never get it straight in your mind. Interesting. You know that the IRS back in the day was the premier organization that, that and the the the Federal Narcotics people were the ones that went after the mafia, whereas the FBI wasn’t, and you know what people don’t understand about the IRS many people, the IRS is just this big, huge. Organization that’ll come down on you when you [00:07:00] cheat on your taxes. But it’s really two divisions. There’s a civil division, but then there’s this criminal division, which was called the Intelligence Unit for a long time. And then I think your grandfather what I read in your book was he went into some special squad within the intelligence division called the Racket Squad. Is that right? Eddy Inserra: Yeah, that’s correct. The Racket squad was a specialized division inside of the Intelligence Division. Okay. Which only went after high profile Racketeers. And there was even an old TV show if you go on YouTube and look up Racket Squad. Yeah. There was a TV show about that. Yeah. Gary Jenkins: I remembered. I think no, it was gangbusters on the radio, but Racket Squad was on tv. Interesting. Eddy Inserra: Yeah. Gary Jenkins: So he grew up with a lot of the mobsters in the Boston area. Correct. Eddy Inserra: Correct. He was born in 1919, the same year as Jerry Angiulo. They were the same age which you’ll hear that name a lot and a lot of your listeners know. Jerry Angiulo was the under boss of Raymond Patriarch in Boston. And so they grew up right across through the bridge. [00:08:00] So Fred grew up actually in East Boston and Jerry grew up in the North end, and I confirmed that they did know each other when they were kids. I don’t know how deep that relationship went, but they did know each other when they were kids. And there was another man who ended up becoming partners with Fred later on in his post IRS career who he grew up with named Guy Spano. And he was also in East Boston at that time, and they were all this they knew each other, Gary Jenkins: interesting. Fred, knowing all these people, he knows about the bars and stuff and I noticed one of the things that was interesting, one of the things looked like early cases. He went after the pinball racket. Guys back in the day, every corner store bars, they all had pinball machines and they were a great way. To launder money and get all this cash money in and not pay their taxes on kinda like a cover charge that strip clubs get today. Whether there’s a way to, to get line cash money in that didn’t really go through the cash register. Tell us about that pinball racket. Eddy Inserra: Yeah, the pinball racket was a big deal back then. There was a lot of paperwork in [00:09:00] his box about that. There was a map that he had inside that box that showed all the different places he was raiding in Massachusetts just for the pinball machine. Pinball machines and the pinball machines back then were a game, not a game of skill because they didn’t have flippers on them. So the flippers that, that came on later, then it became a game of skill and it wasn’t actually just throwing your money away and gambling, so to say. So they weren’t able to go after them after they added flippers to the machines. But before the flippers interesting. Gary Jenkins: Yeah, I did, I didn’t really realize that I saw one of those when I was. You my late teens over in Kansas City, Kansas, and now I didn’t really realize what the deal was. What it was if you play it so much and get lucky and your ball goes to a certain place, then you win. But if it doesn’t and there’s no way to have it, is all pure luck. That’s the difference. I’ll be darned. I never thought about that. Interesting. Eddy Inserra: Yeah. Gary Jenkins: Of course from then, that’s gambling and that’s where the money is. So he [00:10:00] continues on going after mobsters, Italian mobsters in that area of the country in organized, more organized gambling. So tell us a few of his other organized gambling investigations. Eddy Inserra: Yeah, he went after the Italians. He also did go after a lot of the Irish too that in his paperwork too. Wimpy Bennett, Walter Wimpy Bennett. There was a lot of, in Jewish DKI, like I mentioned. Yeah, a couple other too but yeah, one, one big investigation that really put him on the map was. The Raytheon investigation. Raytheon we know as a big defense company and they’re headquartered in Massachusetts. They always have been, I don’t know if they still are, but they have been up until a few years ago. But huge corporation and during that time was the Cold War. So they’re supposed to be building missiles, but they called the IRS saying, Hey, listen, we’ve got a problem. Our production, our manufacturing floor, everybody’s supposed to be working, but. They’re all not on the floor and they’re gambling somewhere. We don’t know where, we don’t know the root cause of this syndicate, but it’s in all of our buildings and people are consuming their time, playing the [00:11:00] daily numbers, betting on sports, all kinds of stuff. And they couldn’t really get to the root of it to root it out of the system. So they called the IRS, they assigned Fred, my grandfather to the case, and he took the lead. He ended up sending a bunch of his agents in undercover as janitors, and they had to go through the whole process, the whole hiring process as a normal, employee would try to get hired. So they’d have to submit an application, go through the test, all that stuff. Because the, it was just so embedded in Ray Raytheon that someone would. Tipped them off. So he got a bunch of these janitors in and they ended up finding out that the, there was long lines going to the bathroom all day long. And that’s, they were making the bets, taking the bets in the bathroom stalls in multiple locations. They rated them all at the simultaneously and they got a bunch of leads after that for more mafia stuff, but it was a big mafia gambling syndicate embedded in the US government sort of defense contractor. So that got him, that was on the cover of the newspapers. It was in. Magazines. It was a big deal. [00:12:00] So Gary Jenkins: Interesting. After that is that he gets crossways with. His bosses and with the US attorney’s office eventually. Was there any other cases I see on the headline here, Pastore names Paul’s, me and politicians behind the bookies. So how did he get into to finding who the bookies were paying off? Eddy Inserra: So he, he had an undercover confidential informant, I should say, who was giving him a lot of information. And we were real in the book. Who that was, we didn’t know at the time. Nobody in my family knew until a few years ago, and that’s, we’re talking 60, 50, 60 years ago. And even the president and RFK at the time wanted to know his confidential informant. So Fred was getting some really good information. They didn’t know where it was coming from. And Fred had made a deal at the time with Eisenhower and the chief of the IRS that. He’d keep this confidential informant on his, on the payroll, but the only people that would know about it was Eisenhower, the chief of the [00:13:00] IRS under Eisenhower and Fred. And then JFK came in, RFK came in as the Attorney General and they wanted to know whose confidential informant was and he would never give him up. So that, that caused some tension between Fred and RFK. Before that there was another case. With a man called Frank Aya. I don’t know if you’ve heard of him, but he’s out, he was out of Worcester part of the, actually, gen Outta Worcester. Yeah, outta Gary Jenkins: Worcester. Okay. Eddy Inserra: Yeah. Part of the Genovese faction so New York, but I, their territory went all the way up to Worcester. And the FBI was actually investigating him for the Brinks robbery in Boston. Gary Jenkins: Oh, Eddy Inserra: really? At the time. So they were looking for leads because they had understood that one of the guys was from Worcester. They’re, they assumed so they went interrogating him, and he said no, I’m not a criminal. I’m just a bookmaker. And as soon as he said that I guess Hoover didn’t want anything to do with Bookmaking at the FBI. So they just threw their hands up and they threw it at the IRS and [00:14:00] that fell in my grandfather’s lap. And so he started digging into IAC and he, he actually built a case against him. He ended up going to jail. But during that process, when he was investigating Ioni, Ioni gave up another man. His name was Bernard Goldfine. Wasn’t in the mafia. He’s a big businessman. He owned all these textile manufacturing companies. And he kept getting the contracts for all the US government, military uniforms every year. So no one else would ever win. And my grandfather exposed that there was some bribery and corruption going on. Between him and Eisenhower’s chief of staff named Sherman Adams. Gary Jenkins: Yeah, Eddy Inserra: I Gary Jenkins: remember, I remember that. Sherman Adams he went down. I remember that. Eddy Inserra: Do you remember the Una coat? That’s what that was the big Gary Jenkins: thing. Yeah. I forgotten about that. Somebody gave me this Una coat. I never was sure what a Una coat was, but yeah, I forgotten about that. The Vicuna code and he and everything, they found all these papers that be. For Eisenhower to four eight C, it’d have to say [00:15:00] KSA Sherman Adams. That was a big deal. While he was spooning feeding Eisenhower all the, anything that he wanted to have. Eddy Inserra: Yeah. That’s funny you remember that because that’s, yeah. Gary Jenkins: Yeah. That was huge at the time in the fifties. Eddy Inserra: Yeah. For some reason, he bribed him with a lot of things, hotel rooms, cash, all these things. But the Vicuna code, for some reason, stuck in the media, and that was my grandfather’s work, was exposing that and yeah. That was a big deal at the time and after he exposed that and with him not giving up that confidential informant. RFK wanted Fred out of Massachusetts. Pretty much out of the cross heads. We can get into that if you want, but yeah that’s the next Gary Jenkins: thing. What would he want? We, because Kennedy’s of course, were Boston area, new England based, and a lot of their people probably could then get in trouble with because of Fred Pastore and his bulldog attitude towards enforcing the law. Was that the deal? Eddy Inserra: Yeah, Fred would follow the money. I know that’s a common thing, but he really would follow the money. And from what I [00:16:00] understand, I wasn’t there, I didn’t live at that time, but from what I understand, he followed the money and wherever it led him and that led him right up to the White House. You know how politics are there, it’s a dirty game. So I’m sure that might’ve been someone who gave money to the candidate, maybe even the same guy, Bernard Goldfine or somebody. And if Fred dug that up, they could get. The same treatment Sherman Adams did. Gary Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Eddy Inserra: They wanted Fred out of there. Yeah. Gary Jenkins: So what happened then? They it seemed like they, they repressed him to reveal his informant or something like and he ended up, either I quit or, I have to give up my informant. Is that, was that what it came down to? Hobson’s choice like that? Eddy Inserra: Yeah, it came down to that. They tried to actually reassign him to Syracuse. New York was really, it was a demotion in pay and in actually title as well. So he would’ve been brought down. He wouldn’t have been in the rack racket squad. He would’ve been down to a special agent again, and would’ve been a step backwards and they would’ve had him out of the mix in Boston. And that’s really what they wanted to accomplish is silence Fred. Yeah. [00:17:00] So he was faced with a decision, do I take that demotion and that’s the end of it, or. Do what he actually did, which was, took him back to his up upbringing in East Boston. Tough poor kid when you actually have to face the bully, I think. And that street grit that he actually said no. You know what? He held his own press conference in downtown Boston and he said, I’m resigning from the IRS today. And I’m opening up my own tax fraud defense firm right across the street. He wanted to view them out the window every day. He had a chip on his shoulder. And so he ended up advising the same kind of people and some of the same people that he was previously going after at the IRS. And he was like a super weapon for those guys because he knew all the legalities and the loopholes and how to structure your businesses and things like that. So Gary Jenkins: yeah, I noticed there was like a Fred Angiulo was that Jerry’s brother then. Eddy Inserra: I don’t know if there was a Fred, if there was Gary Jenkins: a wonder. I thought it, it was Fred. I may have got [00:18:00] that name wrong, Nick in the Nick in my head, because your dad, your grandpa’s name was Fred Pastor. But anyhow, there he defended Angiulo and some of their people, he, he knew everybody went to North End at eight and, they were socially compatible, if you will. So tell us a little bit about that, what you learned about those, that part of his life. Eddy Inserra: Obviously post IRS career, I learned that from my mother and other people, that on the weekends Fred would go on Friday night. Him and his his daughter whose youngest daughter is Charmin, which is my mother. Oldest daughter’s, Pam and my grandmother is Nina. And they would go into Boston to the north end and they’d go down there for, to go to the bakery sit out front. The women would sit out front eating pastry, and Fred would go out back for about 15 minutes and. To me it was him giving advice maybe face to face. To, to Jerry and he’d come out 15 minutes with a paper bag from what I’ve heard. And and that would be it. Then they’d go to the fruit market and then they’d go home and they’d go out to Stella’s. [00:19:00] Restaurant in the North End on Fleet Street at the time, which is a famous spot. Even, JFK, they used to go there. But it was a real famous spot. Fred would be there a lot with the family. And on the weekends my mother remembers. So the Injus, by the way, Jerry and Jula, there was five brothers who really ran their empire together. But Jerry was the head of it and the genius with numbers. And he shared that with Fred. They both had a genius with numbers. So that was some that was interesting. And Nick would, his brother Nick would go to Fred’s house on Sundays, and my mother would call him Uncle Nick. He’d always bring something. One time he brought a pet dog for them. They had a dog, and he’d bring all kinds of gifts and they always saw the nice side to these people. Even in the office, when I went to the office and I met a couple of these people when I was young, I didn’t know who they were, but I, you’d always see the nice side because. Gary Jenkins: Yeah, Eddy Inserra: Fred was the golden goose helping them keep their money, but most importantly keeping them outta jail. So Gary Jenkins: interesting. Huh? That’s a, that’s quite a career switch. [00:20:00] The were you in 98 Prince Street? The famous 98 Prince Street. I went to the north end, went around, took some pictures and stuff. It’s nothing like it, it’s described, but back in the day, other than, it’s really cool, those little narrow brick streets and restaurants and everything. Talk about the north end over there. Eddy Inserra: The north end is that’s the Italian enclave of the city. Boston has different enclaves, different cultural enclaves I should say. And the North end is the the Italian, it actually was the was the Irish before the Italian. So a lot of people don’t know that. But I didn’t know that. The Italian section, and that’s where there’s, world class Italian food restaurants, every 10 feet. And. It’s a tight knit community. Everybody knows everybody especially back then. So you walk down the street, you’ll see people hanging on the corner and if when you’re, when you were a kid you’d go get your fireworks there at the park and, illegal fireworks and get whatever you want. But yeah, 98 Prince Street was where Jerry ran his sort of headquarters out of there and they called it the doghouse. That was, [00:21:00] they knew they had eyes looking out for them as well being there. So the whole neighborhood was really looking out for them. And eventually the FBI caught them by wiretapping a vehicle up front. Yeah. So inside. But yeah, it’s really tight knit Italian. If you come to Boston, I really recommend you go, especially if you want to eat some nice food and see how this still some remnants of how it used to be, like you said, those brick roads and things like that. It’s pretty nostalgic and interesting. Gary Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah, it’s really cool. I’d highly recommend any of you guys. You go out to, you, go to Boston, go to the north end and eat and just walk around. It’s really nice, although it’s pretty busy on the weekends, so a lot of people down there, man and some of the restaurants, there were long lines to get into ’em around dinnertime. Eddy Inserra: Yeah, try if you can make a reservation, try to, if not. Gary Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Good bakeries too that the nicer places. I can’t even remember the names of ’em now. I had ’em that day. But anyhow, so I have to, I’m gonna flip back just a little bit. I made a jotted down a note [00:22:00] about Frank, the cheese man c Chiara, who was at Apple Lake. He did he who was the consigliere, I think for Patri arca. I believe your grandfather went after him or had some dealings with him. Do you remember that? Eddy Inserra: Yeah, he, there was some documents in the box about him and they were telling him he was definitely the concierge for arraignment at the time. And there were documents that Fred’s team was actually tracking him. They were watching him, he was going to Cuba back and forth to Cuba at that time. And so they thought he was moving money or just setting things up with a casino and things like that down there. They couldn’t, I don’t know if they actually got him to go to jail. I don’t remember if they were able to prosecute him, but they were checking him at the airport. I remember they checked his passport. But he was the, he was a money man as well, so he was known to be like the bank at that time. Gary Jenkins: Did did your grandfather have any trouble? His own troubles with the IRS af? Did they come after him or try to go after him at any point in time? Later in his career? Usually they [00:23:00] do. Yeah. They could be pretty vindictive. I’ve seen it here where an FBI agent then becomes a white collar crime lawyer. And boy, I tell you what, his old buddies, he was, they, he, a friend of mine went like that and he was surprised. He was shocked how p how his old friends from the bureau treated him. So did he have any problems like that? Eddy Inserra: In fact, he had a big problem like that as soon as he wouldn’t give up, his informant’s name. That became a problem actually. The the FBI called him in one of the documents that I have. It’s a memo that he wrote right after he came back from the FBI interrogating him. So he was told to report to the FBI in Boston by himself. And this was from his IRS superiors that say that, they want you over there, you gotta go talk to them. And so he went over there. And there was two agents in the room with Fred and they interrogated him asking if he had taken bribes at all. Yeah. And Fred used he, he outwitted them saying, I can’t say anything. This is an on ongoing investigation. If he, if you want me to say anything about this, you’re gonna have to get my [00:24:00] superiors to sign off on this. And, whatever the process was. And he felt like it was unbelievable because he said, who’s accusing me of this? They wouldn’t tell him. But eventually he figured out that it was this textile manufacturer that I mentioned earlier, Bernard Goldfine, his sort of right hand woman, her name was Mildred Paperman. She had she’d already been convicted and so was Bernard Goldfine, but they had said that Fred was taking bribes from them. So they’re taking this information from convicted, felons. And she said she had proof of it. So she had a check made up to the initials, FGP and who else, that’s Fred’s initials. Yeah. Fred G passed story. So Fred started laughing when they pulled that out. He said, do you guys have any idea who this is? It’s not me. And it was for Maine Senator Frederick g Payne, with the same initials. And that was easily documented in his paperwork that he was accepting bribes from gold mines. It’s really interesting how he outsmarted them [00:25:00] and I guess they didn’t do their homework good enough, but, they went after him hard and even after he left the IR Rs they tried to, I think one of, one of the documents says you didn’t report $2 of your tax income or something like that. Just busted his dogs. Oh my Gary Jenkins: God. I’m in a heap of trouble then. Eddy Inserra: Yeah. But the thing that he did have. And I, I can’t say it for sure, but he did have, in his back pocket, was a list of police and politicians that did take bribes. And that’s what up in, in that newspaper behind me, he was supposed to release this list. There was the media believed that he was gonna release these names during his press conference. He didn’t, and I believe that was an insurance policy that he kept in his pocket to keep them away. That’s my belief. I can’t confirm that, but that’s my sort of theory on that. Yeah. Gary Jenkins: Yeah. I tell you what in Boston, greater Boston, that area, having a list of policemen and politicians that have been taking bribes, that’s like shooting fish in a barrel. Just take out about 10 out and name the rest. Eddy Inserra: I tell you what, [00:26:00] I do have that list. It was in the bar. Gary Jenkins: Oh, do you? Oh really? Yeah. Eddy Inserra: Yeah. Is Gary Jenkins: that gonna be on your website? Is that gonna be on your website or are you just keeping that to yourself? Eddy Inserra: I thought long and hard about that, and I don’t think it’s fair to ruin or tarnish any family or anything like that. So I, that’s not gonna come out. Gary Jenkins: Yeah. Interesting. Eddy Inserra: That has nothing to do with me. That’s not my, Gary Jenkins: I, I’d have to agree with that, that those were different times, different days. Yeah. And there’s no use hurting in what would be innocent people today with that kind of information, especially Boston seemed like it’s a. A small community in, in, in a way, it’s not like New York where you’re spread out over all these boroughs and Los Angeles, where you’re spread out over, 25% of the state. It’s more like Kansas City, more like a small area that is Boston. And so a lot of people, everybody knows each other in some manner. Eddy Inserra: Yeah exactly. Couple of degrees of separation if that. Gary Jenkins: Yeah. Eddy Inserra: Yeah. Gary Jenkins: Interesting. Eddy Inserra: Yeah. Gary Jenkins: All right, Eddie and [00:27:00] Sarah, confidence of the mob, the IRS agent who took down the mafia and then advised them. So a really interesting book. Guys. I’ll have links to the website or to the Amazon page where you can buy this book. I’d highly recommend you buy it and when you do, go in there see, I don’t know, it’s about a quarter of the way in and find that find that QR code and. Go to that website and listen to some, I listened to a couple of three of those interviews. Really interesting stuff. That off the stuff that you can’t get everything in, but it’s interesting. I understand about that. Eddy Inserra: Thanks Gary. Yeah. That’s a upcoming podcast. We’re gonna have all full interviews and all that stuff with all. Oh, Gary Jenkins: Are you gonna do one yourself or with somebody there in Boston? Eddy Inserra: We’ve, it’s not gonna be a live podcast. It’s actually a bunch of clips thrown together. So it’s, oh, Gary Jenkins: I see. Eddy Inserra: Okay. Yeah we put it all together. It’s taken a couple years, so far, 12 episodes. We’ve got IRS agents in there, mafia members. We’ve got Fred’s ex clients and family. It’s really interesting. So you can check [00:28:00] that out on the website. Gary Jenkins: Yeah. When is that coming? Eddy Inserra: So we’re shooting to start releasing the end of May. So last week in May. Okay. Gary Jenkins: I love board. I always need another podcast to listen to myself. Eddy Inserra: Yeah. Yeah. Only gonna be one season. It’s not gonna be a multiple season thing. Gary Jenkins: That, that was my next question. It was gonna be a limit limited edition, if you will. Limited season. You’re not gonna keep going year in and year out like I do. Eddy Inserra: Yeah, no, there’s not enough content, but we’ll do behind the scenes and we’ll do some live stuff in Boston and things like that. Yeah. Okay. If anybody knew Fred or of him, please contact me too on the website. Okay. Love to hear about. Gary Jenkins: All right. Great. Alright Eddie and Sarah, I really appreciate you coming on the show. Eddy Inserra: Thanks, Gary. Great to meet you.

Transcribed - Published: 11 May 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins interviews Eddie Inserra,  author of Confidence of the Mob: The IRS Agent Who Took down the Mob - Then Advised Them, a deeply researched account of his grandfather, Fred G. Pastore, a key figure in early IRS efforts to dismantle organized crime.   Fred Pastore was part of the IRS’s early “racket squad,” targeting illegal enterprises that fueled the American Mafia’s power. His work paralleled the groundbreaking financial investigations that helped bring down figures like Al Capone, demonstrating how financial crimes could succeed where traditional policing struggled.   Eddie recounts how he uncovered his grandfather’s story through a remarkable archive of family documents, photos, and recordings. These materials revealed a complicated dual life: Fred was both a relentless investigator and, later, a trusted confidant to certain mob figures. This paradox sits at the center of the book and this conversation.   A major focus of the discussion is the “pinball racket”—a widespread illegal gambling operation hidden in plain sight within bars and storefronts. Fred’s investigations exposed how these machines generated significant underground revenue streams for organized crime, particularly in Boston. Eddie details the innovative and often risky techniques the IRS used to infiltrate these operations, including undercover work within corporations like Raytheon, where illegal gambling rings had taken root among employees.   The episode also explores the institutional challenges Fred faced. His aggressive tactics and unconventional relationships eventually brought him into conflict with IRS leadership and political figures, forcing his resignation. In a striking turn, Fred leveraged his deep knowledge of organized crime to advise former mob associates—highlighting the blurred moral boundaries that often exist in this world.   Eddie adds a personal dimension, sharing memories of growing up around his grandfather and describing the cultural landscape of Boston’s North End, where family, community, and organized crime often intersected. These stories provide insight into how relationships between law enforcement and mob figures could be shaped by proximity, respect, and shared environments.   The conversation concludes with a look ahead at Eddie’s upcoming podcast, which will expand on these themes through interviews with former IRS agents, mob associates, and others connected to Fred Pastore’s extraordinary life.   This episode offers a rare look at the gray areas of justice—where the line between hunter and ally becomes increasingly difficult to define. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 11 May 2026

In this episode, host Gary Jenkins, a retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective, sits down with author and mob expert Springs Toledo and discusses the Boston Winter Hill Gang and its notorious members. Springs’ book, “Don’t Talk About Joe Mac: The Life, Wars, and Secret History of the Man Behind the Winter Hill Gang” Springs Toledo provides an exhaustive look at Joe McDonald aka Mac, a pivotal yet often overlooked figure in the Boston criminal landscape, especially during the 1960s-1990s. Springs, a Boston native, brings a unique perspective and personal anecdotes that enrich our understanding of the intersections of crime, family, and community within the city. They explore Joe Mac’s early life and how his background shaped his role in organized crime. Springs shares how Mac was an elder statesman in the underworld, feared and respected for his ability to organize the rackets in Somerville and maintain a significant network of relationships across various neighborhoods. Joe Mac’s methods of operation were emblematic of a time when the Irish underworld was gaining ground in a city dominated by Italian crime families. Springs discusses the stark differences in these organizations, from their cultural practices to their hierarchies. Springs also highlights the complexities of Joe Mac’s personal life, discussing his relationships with his family, especially his daughter Jacqueline. Their conversations reveal a side of Mac rarely seen in crime stories — a devoted father struggling with his dual identity as a loving parent and a cold-blooded criminal. Throughout the episode, Springs captures the essence of Mac’s character, noting that while he was involved in heinous acts, he also exhibited genuine love for his family, a contradiction that adds depth to his narrative. As the conversation unfolds, we examine the dynamics within the Winter Hill Gang, particularly the relationships among Joe Mac, prominent figures like Whitey Bulger, and Howie Carr. Springs shares fascinating insights into Mac’s cautious nature and strategic approach to power. He articulates how Mac operated in the shadows, steering clear of public scrutiny while effectively managing the group’s criminal enterprises. The episode paints a vivid portrait of a gang operating amid violence, betrayal, and survival. In addition to discussing the various criminal exploits, Springs shares some gripping anecdotes that illustrate the real-life implications of this lifestyle. His stories about Joe’s attempts to balance family life while dodging law enforcement showcase the constant threat that loomed over their lives, encapsulating the dangerous allure and traumatizing consequences of organized crime. We also touch upon the significant events that defined the gang wars in Boston, including Joe Mac’s suspected involvement in notorious hits and how the landscape of crime shifted in response to law enforcement’s increased focus on organized crime. Springs dives into the enigmatic character of Joe Mac, unraveling his military background, his unyielding commitment to the underworld, and how he managed to stay a step ahead of rivals and authorities alike. In closing, Springs reflects on the motivations behind his book—his desire to portray the human side of a man branded a monster while exploring the broader themes of morality, family, and the haunting legacy of crime. As we wrap up, it becomes clear that “Don’t Talk About Joe Mac” is not just a biography of an infamous crime figure, but a complex narrative that invites readers to ponder the true cost of a life steeped in organized crime. This episode is a riveting exploration of character, culture, and crime, offering audiences an engaging glimpse into the storied history of Boston organized crime, the Winter Hill gang through the lens of one of its most pivotal figures, Joe Mac. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. Springs Toledo JOe mac Gary Jenkins: [00:00:00] hey, all your wire tappers out there. Gary Jenkins back here in the studio of Gangland Wire. I’m a retired Kansas City Police Intelligence unit detective, doing a podcast mainly about organized crime. We might stray into drugs every once in a while, but primarily about Italian based organized crime or, and then sometimes we get into Irish based organized crime. I’ve done a story on the Westie in the past and a few other stories like that. So today we’re gonna talk about the. Crossing of the Irish and and the Italians in Boston area, which is a really well known, famous story. A lot of great characters. And I have with me a man who wrote a book about this. Springs Toledo, welcome Springs. Springs Toledo: Thank you very much, Gary. Happy to be here. Gary Jenkins: Great. Now guys, the books is, don’t Talk about Joe Mack the Life Wars and Secret History of the Man Behind The Winter Hill Gang. And I’ve always wondered about this Winter Hill gang. I’ve always heard of it and Whitey Bulger came out of that and was so famous, but I’ve never really. [00:01:00] Seen anything or know anything about the background of it. And Springs, Toledo has somebody, a guy called Joe Mack that was involved in that and he’s really gone into it in depth. Springs, tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got into this. Springs Toledo: I’m a native of Boston, which did help, the accent helped open doors. Gary Jenkins: We can tell. Springs Toledo: But I don’t even try to hide it anymore. And I have a background in, in boxing, which also helps, that’s a breeding ground for, leg breakers and enforcers. Historically, in Boston, a lot of ex fighters became gangsters or, involved in that life. I went to Northeastern got a graduate degree in criminology. And I I didn’t, I never became a police officer. I worked with, actually with juvenile delinquents and troubled youth for many years. I’ve written several books some about boxing, some about an historical figure named John Brown, who’s an abolitionist, so I’m running the gamut. But Joe McDonald was a name that I heard whispered for many years, growing up. He had a very long criminal career over five decades.[00:02:00] And, so he was considered something very serious. But what I began to notice as the book started coming out after John Madano became a cooperating witness, as he’d say. Is that not much was known about this individual. What I knew is that he was about 20 years older than everybody else. So he’s an elder statesman in that world. So I started poking around. I know some guys who were involved in that life. I know some other guys who were very connected to very serious individuals who were active in the Boston Underworld during these years, the sixties, seventies, eighties, into the nineties. Yeah. So I started, asking around and the things I started to hear were very downright alarming about who this man was and that he was the guy not Whitey Bulger. There was what they’ll all tell you the deeper you get into the operators in that world is that Whitey Bulger is. Largely a mythology. And that in Somerville especially, he wasn’t really that respected. Joe Mack, however, was Joe Mack was, he [00:03:00] was the go-to guy. And upon doing all kinds of research, field research, but also I’m trying to corroborate everything. People are saying you can’t just take what people have to say at face value, especially if they’re, underworld figures. Yeah. A lot of ’em have a self-interest as so what I would do, I had a little strategy. What I would do is I would talk to one guy in Southie if I heard a story that sounded intriguing or something about Joe Mack, what have you, and then I’d try to find another guy in Somerville or East Boston or Hy Park who didn’t necessarily know that individual. And if the stories match, I’d look into it further. For instance, I wanna make sure the guy wasn’t in prison at that time, that he’s allegedly known to have done something. So that’s how I began to put together a picture. And what the u unanimously what I found out is that Joe McDonald was really the, he’s the one that put together organized crime in Somerville, centered in Winter Hill. He organized the launch sh the rackets loan, sharking booking, sports betting, all of that. And he was a very feared individual.[00:04:00] He looked like a building superintendent. He was balding. He, no, he was nothing flashy about him. He was family man. But so I started digging deeper and I got his military records, and then the picture really started to come together because of what he went through during World War II in the South Pacific and the trauma that he suffered. I didn’t wanna write a straight True crime book. So I wanted to do something different. I didn’t want it to be ordinary. I wanted it to be get underneath the behavior. It’s the, the criminology major is, was showing it’s yeah. Was coming to the fore. So I wanna get underneath it. So I consider this book more of a nonfiction noir. ‘Cause if you watch those old movies, a lot of ’em have a theme where you have, the main character, the anti-hero. These are movies from the forties, all black and white. All shadowy. Yeah. They come back from World War ii and they’re troubled. They’re shell-shocked. JoEM, Joe Mack came back and he’s marred. Something about his personality had changed and he’s one of the few individuals that I’ve encountered who [00:05:00] actually age into crime. He didn’t age out of it like everybody else. He aged into it. But he was very good at what he did. He was a brilliant individual. Very strong-willed. Someone said that I talked to, they said that, all the fear, whatever fear he had was knocked out of him, in SVO sound. When his ship went down, which was a USS Quincy with his brother on it. So he became a, began to emerge as a fascinating figure. But what. Made me decide to write the book was when I was hooked up with his daughter by TJ English. I reached out to him and he, he told me about Jackie McDonald. I reached out to her and I said, I’m thinking about writing a book about your father, Joe McDonald. I don’t think that the the literature on him now really got him right. And she said, give me a night to drink about it. Yeah, so the next morning she told me she was she’ll tell me everything she knows and she was the right person because first of all, she was named for the brother that he lost in SVO sound that he never got over his little brother. Her name’s [00:06:00] Jacqueline. And like her father, she’s absolutely brilliant. She’s charismatic. She is incredibly honest. If she’s not sure about something she’d say. So nothing in it was, what she told me was about herself. It was nothing was ego driven. She wanted to tell the truth of her father. And what I began to realize early on is that you know this, you have victims of guys like Joe McDonald who killed dozens of people professionally, but he was a murderer. There’s no doubt about it. And you have a lot of victims, including in his own family. Not that he intended to hurt his daughters and his son, but his, who he was and what he was, did a lot of damage to his own family and she was the perfect person to talk to because she was so honest. She’s also very funny if, you read about her in the book, she comes across as a real character, very charismatic. So her story runs parallel with his, she comes out about the middle of the book. I trace her life alongside with his, and she had a memoir that she did many years ago and she shared that with me. [00:07:00] She’s she really is a force of good, if you will, in the book. She’s the one to cheer for, she’s the one to root for. Joe McDonald is a formidable figure, but he’s a dark and shadow. We figure. I do bring him out as much as I can and he is fascinating, but. I felt like I needed someone to root for the reader, yeah. And also, it’s women who love true crime the most. Yeah. Gary Jenkins: That’s so Springs Toledo: had to give nod to them, they’re gonna buy it. Gary Jenkins: That is true. And a story like this will will attract men and women both, sometimes those just straight, kill ’em all and let God sort ’em out. Of true crime books are not really attractive to women. That’s really interesting that. You’re showing the human side of this guy instead of just the crime side, which there every one of these guys that are professional criminals in this life have a human side. They, that’s what one thing that fascinated me about ’em, even way back when I started, went into the intelligence unit is these guys all had families and they had kids going to St. Pius up here and they played football and the families all showed up [00:08:00] when their kids played football and they were in little league and all that kind of normal stuff. On one hand, but yet they came over into the CI city in here. They came from the suburbs over in the city and were these gangsters all night long, and then went back home to their suburban homes. So that family side. That’s really interesting. I’m glad you did that. Springs Toledo: That’s compartmentalization. And Joe was the best at it. But there was something unusual about this case and that is that. Joe told nothing to anybody. His Winter Hill partners barely knew about his personal life. They didn’t know much about him. Yeah, nobody knew much about him. ’cause he didn’t confide in anybody. He did it the way you’re supposed to do it. As an organized, if you’re gonna get into organized crime, you want to follow his lead. And he lived a tough life. It’s nothing to get into in terms of choosing that as an occupation. However, he did confide in his daughters. He trusted them and he told them an awful lot, which he didn’t realize was traumatizing them. But. Jackie McDonald is blessed with a very good memory, so she was able to fill in [00:09:00] a lot of blanks about some of which were cold case murders and other just, real eyebrow raising incidents that happened. I think this book would’ve been invaluable to the FBI. Right up to the early nineties interest because of the stuff that came out, several cold case murders. I think I solved them. And, they were attributable, well attributed. I attribute them to Joe, a few. I know he did. But, people didn’t know, and he was a, excuse my saying, but he had. He was a real talent for that. He knew how to get you. He knew how to find you. He knew how to get you. And he also, like I said, he didn’t have any fear, so there was nothing holding him back. And that’s a difference from Whitey Bulger. What people don’t realize is that Whitey Bulger was a very careful man. And that’s why a lot of murders attributed to Whitey Bulger. He didn’t do, it doesn’t even, it, it offends his personality. He was the kind of guy, if he’s gonna kill you, you’re gonna be in the basement tied to a chair, or you’re gonna be a woman. He’s not on Northern Avenue in Boston in broad daylight, killing Brian Halleran. It’s not true. That’s not Whitey [00:10:00] bulge, that’s not how he operated. Joe Mack was a different beast altogether, and yet he was never indicted for murder. He was questioned maybe for one of them. And the title is really a reason for that because you didn’t talk about Joe Mack. That’s actually, that’s that’s. I like the title a lot. It took me a long time to get to that title. First title was Hey Joe, ’cause of the song. And I was like, ah. Nobody said, Hey, Joe to him. Where you going with that gun in your hand, huh? That’s right. You’re good. Yeah. Jimmy Hendrix. And then another title was the Wars of Joe Mack. That was a little too masculine that works, but it was too masculine. Yeah, don’t talk about Joe Mack really captures, what he was and how he operated. Gary Jenkins: Springs set the geographic scene. I’ve always been a little bit confused about this in Boston. IU Boston is unlike Kansas City, for example, what I’m familiar with. It has these really distinct areas in neighborhoods. Set the scene, the Italians African Americans, the Irish what set that up for us? [00:11:00] Springs Toledo: Okay, this is the, fifties, sixties, seventies that, that’s where most of the book is occurring. Especially 60, 70, actually into the eighties. Boston first of all it’s basically back then was an Irish Catholic city. Yeah. There were other ethnicities, but it was overrun with the Irish and there were neighborhoods. So you had. You had neighborhood crews, you had crews that were operated out of East Boston. That’s Barboza, south Boston was several of them. Jamaica Plain, the North End obviously was where the mafia was. Sented La Ostra. Somerville, Charlestown. And a lot of, most of these guys who were got into criminality. Not only did they have families, they also had occupations. They were long showmen, they were roofers. They had jobs. I’m a policeman. And back then policemen, you didn’t make a lot of money. So you were encouraged to supplement your income. Oh yeah. Some of these guys were, they were detectives by day and they’re doing heists at night and that was not uncommon. And. Over time, certain organizations [00:12:00] became more organized and the Irish, remember, were barely organized. They were more like, it was more like the old West when things got hot. It was also a whiskey driven, a lot of the heinous acts and the murders that started to happen with that, the Irish gang war in the sixties, everybody was drunk. Some of these guys were really nice guys and then they got to the whiskey and forget it. They become monsters. Not everybody, but but. Boston was also very segregated. Not like the south. It was, there was natural neighborhoods, I was in Hy Park, that’s where I came up. If I went to Southy, there was a problem ’cause I didn’t know a lot of people there. If somebody from Southie went to the North End, it’s a problem. You are Irish, you shouldn’t be here. You didn’t cross boundaries. Mattapan was Jewish and then it became black. Same thing. So everybody congregating together is very tribal in that sense. Less so now, but there are still pockets, what’s upsetting to me is that you barely hear the accent, and you’re walking through Boston, you don’t hear the accent too much anymore. You have to get to Dorchester. That’s their accent’s. 10 times worse than mine, [00:13:00] and mine’s pretty bad but Joe Mack was Joe Mack was born in Medford, Massachusetts. He then, he was in Somerville by about 1950. His mother had moved there as as clan, if you will. Had moved there, his sisters and brothers. And so he was in Somerville in Winter Hill, and that’s where he started to operate and that’s where he started to put things together. Gary Jenkins: Interesting. You say Winter Hill. So let’s talk about the beginnings or this Winter Hill gang. I’ve heard of this. Many times. And Whitey Bulger of course popularized it. So tell me about the Winter Hill gang and Howie Carr. And there’s a famous picture that see on internet or on Facebook with our Underboss Tuffy Luna and this guy that was the head of the Winter Hill gang and a couple other gangsters from New York. So tell us about the beginning of this Winter Hill gang. Springs Toledo: We deserves a lot of credit. He’s the one that really brought the stuff out beginning in the eighties. He had the guts to mention Joe Mack in print. That’s high risk. I’m not sure how much he did it, but he was really [00:14:00] attuned to it early. And he had some great books, but winter Hill’s a neighborhood in Somerville. It’s not South Boston. You talk to guys who were associated with the Winter Hill Gang, what they called the Hill. Really? It was called The Hill by those who were a part of that organization. They get very resentful about Whitey Belgium and some of them will say that Whitey Belger wasn’t Winter Hill. Whitey Belgium was a partner, but he was South Boston. Okay. Once, and it’s a big story, but once he, it’s all in the book. But once he betrayed his partners in 79. With Fleming and all the partners just about were either they were all indicted except for about this big horse racing scheme that was going on, across several states. But Whitey and Fleming were unindicted co-conspirators, and that was hint number one that prompted Joe to go to Howie Winter, who was the face of the organization and say, I’m gonna kill them both. He was talked out of it because it’d be too much heat because Whitey had some very serious connections. You can’t take that away from him. And so he was a high [00:15:00] risk hit. Joe would’ve done it anyway and would’ve probably made him disappear or threw it at another organization to get the heat off the hill. But he was restrained, which was, I thought was a big mistake, but who can tell then? But after he cleared the field of his rivals, who. Where his partners in the Winter Hill gang he ostensibly should have taken over the rackets in Somerville, but that wasn’t really the case. He had salty that was his turf. He was a local guy. Salty was really where he was. He was no longer really welcome is my understanding from guys who I talked to were there, he was basically chased out of the Marshall Motor’s garage in Somerville in Winter Hill, and that’s when he went to the Lancaster garage in, on North End, which is closer to home, closer to his. Space of operations. Yeah. But Whitey was very treacherous and he was Machiavellian in his methods. Joe at the time was already on the lamb because I don’t think Whitey would’ve survived that if Joe was close and saw what he was doing. So it’s a lot of what could have been, if Joe wasn’t in the wind because of several other crimes and murders he was [00:16:00] doing at the time, he was actually on the FBI’s 10 most wanted on 76, long before Whitey was on it. Gary Jenkins: Interesting. So then the relationship between Howie Carr and Joe Mack how was that, how did that shake down? Springs Toledo: Howie Winter, you mean, Gary Jenkins: or Howie Winter, I’m sorry. Springs Toledo: Yeah. Howie Winter was mentored by Joe Mack. See, Joe Mack was really, he was like the general, he was like the general on the field. The Irish don’t operate in a hierarchy. That’s an Italian thing. There’s no ring kissing in an Irish pub. It’s just a different culture. What they were partners. You had one guy up front. He was the face of it. That’s Howie. Howie was the face of it before Howie’s buddy McClain. In the early, in the early sixties. Joe though, the guy in the shadows, he used to say, I’m at the back of the bus. He’s at the back of the bus, but he’s the one with the map. He’s the go-to guy. The guy up front is the guy that gets hit. That’s the guy that gets indicted. So Joe was astute enough to, just stay in the [00:17:00] background, let the kids have it. But they were. Very close, very close. During the war they were, very tight-knit organization. These were friends. They were very affectionate with each other. They took care of one another. This is before Whitey came in. He was, he poisoned the well. But Joe and Howie and Buddy McClean and they, anos when they come in, they were very close. It was a kind of a band of brothers in a way. But Joe still made. Maintain that, everybody was at arms length with him. He was careful about everybody. There was a rift between Howie and Joe later in their respective lives in the in the eighties, into the nineties. I’m told that it was healed. I don’t think it was, and that’s unfortunate. But they were close to most of their lives, they literally went to war together on, on the street, you’re gonna form strong bonds when you know you’re looking at this guy and you gotta rely on him to watch your back. And Gary Jenkins: yeah, Springs Toledo: that’s what was happening. Gary Jenkins: So Irish, they didn’t kick up, if you will, to somebody above them. Everybody was a kind of a independent operator. If you got a piece of action and you had something going that you didn’t have to kick up to [00:18:00] somebody to be part of the Winter Hill gang, if you will. Springs Toledo: That was where the, there were a lot of crews around. They were called independents. And there’s a lot of them around in Boston in the sixties. But if you got too big and you started making real money, Patri was a power in Boston. Gary Jenkins: Yeah. Springs Toledo: Raymond Patri, he was a power in Boston. There’s no doubt about that. But there’s two schools of thought. Some believe that Winter Hill had to always kick up to them, kick to Providence. Others say? No, not really. Because first of all, he loved Buddy McClean. Buddy McClain was he was a very charismatic guy, very tough guy, and he was a man of his word, so they really liked him. So there’s the other school of thought is that, they liked Buddy, they gave him a pass on that. But every now and then they’d have to do him favors, maybe do some hits, things like that. Yeah. Yeah. But again, but in, in Boston it’s, like I said, it’s mostly Irish, it’s not set up like New York where the Italians are a real power that’s right there. He, one guy, matter of fact a name of one of the chapters in the book where I get into the Gangland war. Is Boston was [00:19:00] overrun with sick bastards, quote unquote, because there was just so many dangerous guys. There wasn’t a few here and there, like the gallows or it, there was hundreds of guys and there was damn near psychopathic they were called and underworld polls. There was savages, they go right to your house. And it was too many. This, one guy actually several believed that if there was a problem between Rhode Island. The Boston Underworld, meaning Boston Writ Lodge, including Somerville, Medford, Malden, all that. That. The Italians would’ve come to the table. ’cause the Irish underworld, the Boston Underworld here would’ve made it very much not worth it. Not worth the blood and the treasure. So it’s, yes, with very interesting culture here. What you couldn’t control the Boston underworld. They would just, Boston itself has a reputation. You don’t wanna invade this place. Gary Jenkins: Yeah, just ask the English, huh? Springs Toledo: Exactly. Yeah. We go way back with that stuff. Yeah. Gary Jenkins: Yeah it’s, I was at I went into the north end and looked around at Prince Street and all the place where [00:20:00] Jerry Angelo and all that was going on, and that is such a small. Discreet little area in that then, so you, they just operated and he was not any kind of a real power. It didn’t seem to be like, compared to patriarchal. He was under patriarchal of course. And he didn’t really, it’s like the Irish all had their own thing all around him. All, and he didn’t really have didn’t, I didn’t find any, anything I’ve ever seen where there was much to do between those two. Was there, did he have anything about that? Springs Toledo: He had he had two guys joe Russo, he was a killer. He was a very serious individual and a guy who has two names. Some call him Byi, some call him Zino. Larry was his name. Very serious guy. But that’s two guys. The other dangerous guys in the north end. They were getting up there in age. Meanwhile, like you just alluded to, this sur this surrounded, by these, these crazy guys. Yeah, but they, they did. There was some interplay, there was some contracts would be given to the Hill, for instance. That happened several times. The Hill would borrow [00:21:00] money from Angelou and Jou had a lot of money. They’d borrow money from him. Whitey Belger borrowed money from him with Fleming and actually didn’t pay it back. And then Joe Mack got out of the can. This is 80 late 86, 87, and him and Howie went to Fleming and Whitey and said, listen, you’re paying them back. Matter of fact, you’re paying them back a million because you made us look bad. We pay our debts, you pay him, you pay in back 1 million. And they did. They Whitey Bulger. Yeah. Whitey Bulger did not step two, Joe McDonald. In other words he wasn’t the power that Johnny Depp would have us believe. Gary Jenkins: Interesting. So let’s go back to the family just a little bit. His daughter Jack Le, so when he went to prison, did she talk about that? I have a friend who went to prison for several years and he talks, tells me a lot about his kids coming to visit him in prison. Did he talk about that? Did she talk about that? How that affected her? Springs Toledo: She she talks about her whole life and how he was a shadow in her life. She loved him, [00:22:00] but he brought a lot of chains behind him and a lot of ghosts and a lot of fear of FBI raids and things like that. Even when he was on the run from the FBI was on the, top 10 most wanted, it’s only six o’clock news all over the place in every post office. He would just show up and see her. He thought he was being a dutiful father. He’s showing up. He’s got these black sideburns, glued onto his face and she could see the ink dripping. He got his rug on his head he startled her a lot. So she. He was a cause of great anxiety. And then she became a mother, and then things started to change. She had to protect her boys. And while, he looked like he could be a good grandfather, he was an extremely dangerous man. And when he went away to prison, she tried to be a good daughter. She would send him clippings. Matter of fact, she sent him a clipping of I think it was a national examiner because her father was in it. It was about the top 10. FBI fugitives. And she pointed out she was into astronomy and she astrology and she pointed [00:23:00] out that Joe Mack and another guy named Leo Corey had the same birthday, July 14th. So she thought he’d get a kick outta that. He gets outta prison a few years later, and he shows up at her house with Leo Corey. Who’s still on the top 10 most wanted. And she, he opens the door. He said, do you remember this guy? And she turned, that, that was a scary, that was a very scary moment for her. Yeah. He’s bringing very, this is a convicted murderer. It’s a multiple murderer. She’s got bringing, he’s bringing it to her house like he’s an old friend. So that kind of stuff happened a lot. It almost show off like that. Look what I can do. Yeah. So she had, I, she did love him and she has since forgiven him. And I think this book is part of her process to forgive, what he put her through and what he put his other children through. Not intentionally, he tried to be a good father, but how can you. In that position. Gary Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. When you bring that violence into the home, and you can’t help but bring that aura of [00:24:00] violence with you. When you live that life and when you come back into the home, there’s still that edge of violence that, that unspoken communication, you jump every time, somebody pulls up out in front and you’re running to the window to see who it is and there’s just always, always on edge. I, that would be it. Springs Toledo: Here’s a good story. So he’s on the run. This is in the I think it’s the late sixties. Joe’s on the run. She’s at home and Joe set his wife and kids up in Malden and a house on the hill. And originally he was gonna live there too. And it’s a, it is a great place. He’s up, he’s on a corner. He’s on a hill. You can see Boston from it. So it’s got a great vantage point for kind of a, a paranoid damaged war veteran. Yeah. So a call comes into the house. Voice says, you know who this is. She’s about 11, 12 years old. Voice says, you know who this is? Yes. Meet me at the bottom of the hill. So she gets her sister Patty and they meet their dad at the bottom of the hill. He takes them bowling and saga. He’s got the disguise on. Yeah. He’s got so many IDs, fake IDs, and he’s they [00:25:00] go to they, they go bowl and. You gotta wait for Lane. So he’s sitting there like this, he got his arms out. He’s feeling good about himself. He’s a good dad. He got his two teenage girls here and one of ’em, one of ’em, almost a teenager. And suddenly over the intercom, Thomas Campbell, your lane is ready. And he’s just sitting there. Thomas Campbell, he’s just sitting there. Finally his daughter says, pat says, dad, that’s you. Oh. And off he goes. So he wasn’t even sure who he was half the time. Yeah. So he’s my heart went out to him in that sense because here’s a man who made some very dark life choices and he’s trying to be a conventional father. Meanwhile, he’s gotta keep his eye on the clock, on the door, on the phone and everything else, all day long. Not to mention the fact that, there’s, it was dangerous lifestyle. But, his daughters, I, his daughters, they idolize him and they loved him. They didn’t fear him, he never raised his hand to them, never raised his hand to them, but they feared what he brought with ’em. Yeah. And that’s a theme book. Gary Jenkins: Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, that’s a, that’s that is so interesting. Think about this [00:26:00] era or of violent violence. I think somewhere in the book I noticed I was going through it where he may have been possibly one of the suspects on the Joe Barbosa head out in San Francisco when they finally got him and in. Springs Toledo: That’s fascinating because actually I had to take out ’cause of the publisher, I take about 15,000 words, but I really get into that. But that had to go. But what happened was. He had to go out there and kill a federal witness. And this guy was a civilian. This guy looked like a grandfather. And but he was gonna be a fence for some rear stamps that Joe had taken a million dollars worth of rear stamps. And this guy was gonna be the fence. He was a rear stamp collector out in Sierra Madre. Long story short, in January of 1976, Joe Mack drives out there, shoots him in the head five times in front of his wife, and then in February, that’s when Bob Bozer is killed February, 1976. This is January, 1976. Now, what I heard from two sources, and they’re pretty good, is that Joe did not go from Sierra Madre, [00:27:00] California back to Somerville. What he did was he went to Laurel Canyon and that’s where Alex Rocco was staying. Alex Rocco du played Mo Green in The Godfather. Oh, Gary Jenkins: yeah. Yeah. Springs Toledo: Yeah, he was a Winter Hill guy and Joe stayed with him on the lamb for so many weeks. I don’t know if it’s true. I couldn’t chase that down. No way you’re gonna find that out. But it was an intriguing little tidbit. So then in in February Bob Bozer is killed. Now when that news hit a bar in Boston called Clocks was a mob hangout. The bartender who knew all these guys. He got off the phone and he yelled out to the bar that Bleepity bleep stool pigeon. Animal Barbosa is dead and gone. God bless Joe Mack. That’s what he said. He just assumed Joe Mack did it. So what I’m trying to chase that down and what happens is so I’m talking to guys, who’re talking to guys. What I [00:28:00] found out is that one guy said no, this that, that wasn’t Joe that was kept in-house among the Italians because Bob Bza really took apart the Italians influences Yeah. In Boston. Yeah. He took them apart with lies. And however, there were three people in that van. I got these I got freedom of information documents and. What I was told by a made guy actually, is that it was Russo and Byi Zino. They’re the ones that took out Bob Bozo with a shotgun from a van. The van two seats were taken out of the van. The windows were painted black. This. Side windows were painted black and peeps were drilled into the side door and the back, so they worked hard to get ’em, but there was a third man in the van, so that’s a little intriguing. Could it have been Joe? I don’t know. Probably not. I’d have to say probably not, but nice story. And then from there, and then literally just a few weeks after that, Joe was in disguise. Remember now he’s already on the news as a as a top 10 fugitive. The FBI’s looking [00:29:00] for, and where is he? He’s in Walpole. How did I find out? I got everybody’s prison records. I could, and Brian Halleran, who turns up later in the book and then turns up dead later in the book. He’s in prison. Joe visits him. How do I know? It’s Joe’s Alias? John A. Kelly, that was his alias at the time. So he’s wanted by the FBI, he’s on the news and literally a week or two later. He’s visiting somebody in Walpole State Prison. From there, I trace him to Montreal. What’s he doing in Montreal? He’s sticking, he’s holding up a an ahed car robbery. With the Montreal Express, they had a great program, the Montreal Express. And Somerville, what they would do is they would just swap guys to do these big highs, get these ika, get these banks, and then just return. So it was awfully hard to catch ’em ’cause they’re just doing like a swap off. Yeah. Joe Mack. Was up there. And what he was doing was, and he, it was a white van, which raises an eyebrow, another white van. And the Amed car, the guy wouldn’t open the door. So they open up the [00:30:00] door of the back doors of the white van. And there is a World War II Browning anti-aircraft gun. And guess who’s behind it? Joe Mack. So this is a very busy man, and he should be, he’s retirement age but did he kill Boba? Probably not, but there was a third guy there. I would not be surprised. I know the Italians used him. Gary Jenkins: You brought something to Montreal Express Now what’s that? I, that I’m not from, I’ve not heard that term before. Springs Toledo: I wasn’t either, but that a lot of guys told me they Gary Jenkins: back heard your story there. Springs Toledo: Yeah, there is. Yeah. They were they were up, they were they were bank robbers. They went for the armor trucks. That was their forte. Very well organized. Very skilled. They were specialized and they would swap off with, winter Hills, sometimes with Southie and South Boston, I should say. South Boston and Somerville would, they were very close, they were very much aligned. They would swap off. I think one of ’em was the brother of a Bruins hockey player. Yeah. Gary Jenkins: Interesting. These guys, they got their connections. I found out more and more after I since I started doing this podcast, how many connections people [00:31:00] had between cities and even within a city connections to regular look like Square John, businessmen and just connections all over the place. It’s Springs Toledo: all over the place. Matter of fact, Joe was Joe was in contact with the guys who escaped from Alcatraz. I couldn’t prove it, but I heard that, he was sending them money and, and supporting them. I pro I didn’t find nearly 50% of what Joe was up to, but that’s more than anybody else. I think before this book, we knew about 2% of what he was up to. Yeah. Gary Jenkins: It was Springs Toledo: pretty guy. Sure. Yeah. He was a footnote in the most of the books. Just a footnote, if that. So Gary Jenkins: that’s the smart one, the one that keeps his head down and keeps out of the papers and everything. Did that, did you talk to John Ano? Springs Toledo: Yes. Yeah. Gary Jenkins: Interesting. Springs Toledo: I did. He was he loved, first thing he said was how much he loved him. All these guys, very serious guys. They’re very powerful guys in the underworld. And when I brought his name up the ones who were close to him, they would say I love that. I love that man. Loved him. They loved and [00:32:00] revered him. Other guys who were not as close to him, but who were very, operatives in the bus world. I bring his name up now, he’s been gone since 1997. And they’d look around like this. And they say, oh gee. So you know, his name is still enough to and matter of fact, I was told early on when I was poking around that I’m poking around in dangerous places and Joe still has friends and you don’t wanna cross these guys, so even now his his shadow still looms, if you will, but I think it approve of what I did because, what I heard is that he’s very honest. He would not want any biographer to pull a pull punches about who and what he was. I didn’t, yeah. But some of his friends warned me. They were, you gotta be careful with this, but I call it bachelor’s privilege. I’m not married, I have no kids. If I end up in a ditch, who cares? So I can take risks. Gary Jenkins: Yeah. That’s some truth. It’s just that last few minutes before you’d done the dish, you go, oh shit, I wish I was anywhere but here. I, Springs Toledo: I would ask to talk to a priest. Let me get a confession. That what you gotta do, Gary Jenkins: you Springs Toledo: know, Gary Jenkins: you’d be like I think it was Tony Citro. Supposedly the story was he [00:33:00] wanted to know if he could say a quick prayer before they did him in, but Springs Toledo: I hope they let him, Gary Jenkins: I don’t know. Steve Fleming, we met, you’d mentioned about Steve Fleming, the Rifleman, who was whitey’s buddy and you, I think you mentioned you had a story about Steve Fleming. Springs Toledo: Steve Fleming was it’s interesting he doesn’t appear too much in the book. One of the things I had to do with this, I had to do my best to keep the names down. One of the a fatal flaw in a whole lot of Boston and Underworld books than any underworld books is there was just 8,000 names. Too many names. There’s too many names. So I, so I mentioned him a few times ’cause you have to, but I’m not focused on Fleming, but I can tell you that Joe was very suspicious of Fleming as early as he was very suspicious of Whitey. He respected him. Fleming was a killer. More of an ambush killer than than a Savage or a guy who took a lot of risks. He was a lot like Whitey, like that. But no, Joe didn’t trust him because. He had a long bid and he got out early, and that’s always a cause for concern among those guys. Why are [00:34:00] you out early? They got a story and the stories backed up by the government. They were already in cahoots. Gary Jenkins: Yeah. Springs Toledo: But with the names, there was one guy, this is an example. He was actually an MDC cop who was part of the Winter Hill gang in the early sixties, and his name was Russ Nicholson. I don’t wanna keep saying Russ Nicholson, the cop. So I shortened it to Russ the cop. Yeah. And then as things went on and the, police department realized that this guy’s involved in the rackets, they forced him to resign. So then I started calling them Rust, the ex cop. Then Rusty ex-cop gets clipped probably by Georgie McLaughlin. He’s dead, so now he’s Rust the dead ex-cop. So I’m trying to be polite to the reader and keep the names down. Gary Jenkins: Interesting. That’s a good idea that I know about that, that people say I love what you did, but there’s too many names. I got confused who was who. So it’s Springs Toledo: yeah, Gary Jenkins: it’s always a problem with these deals. All right, Springs, Toledo. [00:35:00] Let’s see. All of a sudden I like there it is. There you go guys. And guys, I will have your his link to for all his books and the show notes and of course links to my books too, but links to all of these guy, these books. You had some even about John Brown. You wanna go back into little Civil War history? Why check those out too. Guys, thanks so much for coming on the show. Springs Toledo: My pleasure.

Transcribed - Published: 4 May 2026

In this episode, host Gary Jenkins, a retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective, sits down with author and mob expert Springs Toledo and discusses the Boston Winter Hill Gang and its notorious members. Springs’ book, "Don't Talk About Joe Mac: The Life, Wars, and Secret History of the Man Behind the Winter Hill Gang" Springs Toledo provides an exhaustive look at Joe McDonald aka Mac, a pivotal yet often overlooked figure in the Boston criminal landscape, especially during the 1960s-1990s. Springs, a Boston native, brings a unique perspective and personal anecdotes that enrich our understanding of the intersections of crime, family, and community within the city.   They explore Joe Mac's early life and how his background shaped his role in organized crime. Springs shares how Mac was an elder statesman in the underworld, feared and respected for his ability to organize the rackets in Somerville and maintain a significant network of relationships across various neighborhoods. Joe Mac’s methods of operation were emblematic of a time when the Irish underworld was gaining ground in a city dominated by Italian crime families. Springs discusses the stark differences in these organizations, from their cultural practices to their hierarchies.   Springs also highlights the complexities of Joe Mac’s personal life, discussing his relationships with his family, especially his daughter Jacqueline. Their conversations reveal a side of Mac rarely seen in crime stories — a devoted father struggling with his dual identity as a loving parent and a cold-blooded criminal. Throughout the episode, Springs captures the essence of Mac’s character, noting that while he was involved in heinous acts, he also exhibited genuine love for his family, a contradiction that adds depth to his narrative.   As the conversation unfolds, we examine the dynamics within the Winter Hill Gang, particularly the relationships among Joe Mac, prominent figures like Whitey Bulger, and Howie Carr. Springs shares fascinating insights into Mac’s cautious nature and strategic approach to power. He articulates how Mac operated in the shadows, steering clear of public scrutiny while effectively managing the group’s criminal enterprises. The episode paints a vivid portrait of a gang operating amid violence, betrayal, and survival.   In addition to discussing the various criminal exploits, Springs shares some gripping anecdotes that illustrate the real-life implications of this lifestyle. His stories about Joe's attempts to balance family life while dodging law enforcement showcase the constant threat that loomed over their lives, encapsulating the dangerous allure and traumatizing consequences of organized crime.   We also touch upon the significant events that defined the gang wars in Boston, including Joe Mac's suspected involvement in notorious hits and how the landscape of crime shifted in response to law enforcement’s increased focus on organized crime. Springs dives into the enigmatic character of Joe Mac, unraveling his military background, his unyielding commitment to the underworld, and how he managed to stay a step ahead of rivals and authorities alike.   In closing, Springs reflects on the motivations behind his book—his desire to portray the human side of a man branded a monster while exploring the broader themes of morality, family, and the haunting legacy of crime. As we wrap up, it becomes clear that "Don't Talk About Joe Mac" is not just a biography of an infamous crime figure, but a complex narrative that invites readers to ponder the true cost of a life steeped in organized crime.   This episode is a riveting exploration of character, culture, and crime, offering audiences an engaging glimpse into the storied history of organized crime in Boston through the lens of one of its most pivotal figures, Joe Mac. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 4 May 2026

Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins reports his previous contributor, Matt, who he interviewed on a new theory on the Carmine Galante hit, answers questions we have seen on various social media outlets. Matt claims the U.S. attorney and the FBI got it wrong when they alleged and convicted Bruno Indelicato for this murder. Challenging the official story, Matt reveals new theories, missing evidence, and the role of younger mobsters in one of the Mafia’s most infamous assassinations. In this bonus episode, I had Matt record his answers to the doubters of his theory. click here to see the book Made on Long Island.   [0:00] Well, hey, all you wiretappers out there, this is Gary Jenkins, as a lot of you know, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective [0:06] and now podcast host and producer and all that. And I was contacted by my guest I had on recently, who was only known as Matt. He’s a guy who supplied all the information to the author of Brantley Scarbrough, who wrote Made in Long Island. That was just out a couple of weeks ago. And I’ve never met Scarborough, and I don’t know any more about him. and I’ve never met Matt in person. I’ve had some emails and some Zoom calls with Matt, but I’ve never actually seen him either. But I recognize his accent, and he does come from the Long Island, New York area. And he does have some interesting stories about growing up with younger mobsters and the Bonanno and Gambino families and doing the fireworks business with Gotti and some of the other horse racing fixing business and that kind of thing, but he made quite a claim that the accepted suspects and the hit on the banana wannabe boss, Carmine the Cigar Galante. [1:11] Was not who the government claims it is. [1:14] And the government only claims one guy, and that’s Bruno or Anthony Bruno Indelicato. He claims it was some young guys who had a grudge against Galante, and they heard that this hit was approved by the commission, and they jumped in there and did it before Joe Massino got his crew set and were all ready to go and carry out this approved hit. Now, there’s no dispute that the commission approved this hit, I don’t think. There may be some disagreement about who actually carried it out. I think there’s no doubt that the two Zips, who were bodyguards, Cesare Bonaventure and Baldassario Amato, did not resist the hit. They took no action and just walked out and left, and then were interviewed by the government later on. Of course, they wouldn’t say anything. They probably knew he was scheduled to be hit, and they knew this was coming. And both were promoted in the Bonanno family right after, so that tells you something. Now, in the commission trial, that’s where Anthony Delicato got convicted for the hit on Carmine Galante. And in the commission trial, the government did convict Tony Salerno, boss of the Genovese family. [2:26] Anthony Tony Dux Corralo, boss of the Lucchese family, Gennaro Jerry Lang Langella, the Colombo family acting boss and regular underboss, Salvatore Tom Mix Santoro, who was a Lucchese family underboss. Christopher Christie Tick Funari, Lucchese family consigliere. [2:45] Ralph, little Ralphie Scopo, the Colombo family soldier. Carmine Junior Persico, who was the boss of the Colombo crime family at that time. [2:55] Stefano Canone, Bonanno family consigliere. [3:00] Anthony Bruno Indelicato, Bonanno family capo. Paul Castellano and Mr. Neal, Neal Delacroche, were not in the trial because they died. They were charged, but they died just before the trial. Now, on the YouTube show we did, we got a lot of comments and Matt’s got a lot of questions. And he wants to address and clarify why he doesn’t believe that the government’s claim that Anthony Delacato and two unknown men killed Galante. So I said, you know, I don’t know what to tell you. I said, you know, record and clarify your claim and see if you can address any of these questions that people have had in the comments section. Now, this may end up like all the competing theories on Jimmy Hoffa’s death and where his body by body might be. I don’t know. But at least Frank Sheeran, the Irishman, did not claim the Galante hit as best I can remember. So anyhow, here’s Matt’s story. I just want to say thank you so much for the interest we’ve generated from Gary’s Gangland podcast. [4:03] A lot of learning goes on here, and that’s where I’m going to start off. One item keeps coming up, and believe me, I’m not being the slightest bit condescending. If you don’t study this stuff and look at it, you have no way of knowing this. If you were to punch in right now, because we’ve done it, like Google searches, what evidence was used against Bruno and Delicato? Well, one thing that comes up, and a couple people referenced in the emails and on the posts, was ballistics. [4:27] They had ballistic evidence against Bruno Indelicato. Boy, that’s pretty strong. I mean, ballistic evidence is very, very strong. So let’s go through the ballistic evidence. Let me start off by saying there’s none. What you’re reading on that, and if you read the fine print closely and go back to the source, that is AI-generated garbage. That’s why we don’t like AI. The definition of ballistic evidence would be something like this. We pulled a slug out of a wall. We pulled a slug out of a victim. We locked a guy up. The guy had that gun on him. We matched that slug to that gun. That is ballistic evidence. There was absolutely none of that presented against Bruno Indelicato, despite what AI says. Again, if you take away one thing, please take away the fact that don’t ever use AI as a source. Now, I know one other thing people asked about was the progression on all this. And again, the book details it with so many stories, so many different John Gotti stories in there that people never heard about. But here’s a brief summary of the progression. [5:28] Our friends were young. We were crazy. We dealt fireworks. We dealt so much, they had to bring in the boss. The boss at that time for that area was John Gotti. To us, it was the same as John Smith. We never heard of the guy. He was great to us. We sold a ton of fireworks. He gave us more and more locations, more and more responsibility. Our friends made a fortune. One of our friends, we thought, had a car accident. Two of the bodyguards who helped our friends kill Galante, Baldo and Chesaree, they approached us at a wake and said, look, your friend was not the victim of an accident. Your friend was the victim of a homicide authorized by Galante. We verified there was bulletholes in his car from the impound yard, from the police sources we had. Kept it under wraps for two years. One of the card games, Angelo got word to our friend Tommy that the commission, in fact, did authorize a hit on Galante. The hit was to be done conjunctively with the Gambinos and the Bananos. Our friend Tommy jumped the gate. He said, we’re going to avenge our friend’s death, put together the team that did it. The details are shocking about what our team did to get the hit done. I mean, details you’re shocked about an alibi jumping off of a boat to create an alibi. I want people to read about this. Having police sources helping the hit, Including holding the spaces on July 12th When the hit went down Holding two different parking spaces at that location I hope this helps people Now I want to get back to another one that keeps coming up People keep saying Oh well they’re on tape celebrating. [6:57] People, please, we’ve made some videos on this at YouTube. Go look at them. You can pull them up. They’re online. You can find them. [7:05] There’s a bunch of sources that have them. Watch the raw video. That is not a celebration. That is a beef being put in. Sonny Red Indelicato is furious. He’s going at it with his consigliere, Stefano Canaan, Stevie Beefs. And you can see in his face, you can see his body language and mannerisms. He walks away from him and then he rushes back quickly and goes to his face. That is not a celebration. That’s anger. Stefano Canone actually points in back of him, pointing at the Ravenite. And he’s basically telling him, look, we’ve registered the beef. Neil is inside. Neil is trying to decipher all of this also, because, again, the whole conflict was this. The commission ordered this hit. People say, oh, they approved that. I’m telling you, the commission, the ones who ordered the hit, they gave the work to Joe Massino, who was going to oversee the job. However, the commission specified that it had to be done jointly between the Gambino family and the Bonanno family. Sonny Red and Indelicato was furious that he was left out of the hit. Simultaneously, John Gotti over in Ozone Park, Queens, was furious that he was let out of the hit. [8:19] You just have to understand, in Cosa Nostra, you do not go out and celebrate a hit after it’s done. You don’t even show your face. Everything in a hit like this is meticulously planned and organized. You know exactly where the getaway cars are going to go and who’s going to chop them up. There is no shot in the world that an expert like Sonny Redd is going to leave a getaway car from a triple homicide out in the middle of the street. That does not happen. Let me tell you something. That’s called botching a hit, both of those acts. If you botch a hit in Cosa Nostra, you’re the next one on the other end of the next hit. You’re going to get hit. There’s plenty of cases where people screwed up hits and didn’t dispose of vehicles properly, and they’re the next ones to get hit. So anyone who thinks it’s a celebration and thinks that that’s Cosa Nostra protocol to go out and celebrate is sadly mistaken. That’s why right away the FBI and Cosa Nostra members knew, obviously, Sonny Red Indelicato, his brother JB, Phil Lucky, Bruno and Delicato, all those guys had nothing to do with the hit. If they did, they would have been buried in a safe house. They would not be out in front of what we call the FBI screen test at Mr. Neal’s Club, the Ravenite in Manhattan. Now, people also say another phrase or two that I really love, the smell test. Okay, the smell test. Let’s talk about that. You had two trials going on simultaneously in 1985. [9:48] Same building, Brooklyn, Pizza Connection case and the commission case. The FBI had been broken down into five different squads, one for each family. You know them all, Colombo, Gambino, Lucchese, Genovese, and of course, the Bonanno. Now, the Bonanno section of the FBI, the Bonanno squad, had the most to do in these cases. Most, if not all, the pizza connection focused on the Bonannos, and a good chunk, especially 100% of the Gallant they hit, focused on the Bonannos, and that was in the commission case. These guys talk to each other. They live, eat, and breathe with each other. So if you want to talk about a smell test, can somebody tell me why in Richard Martin, he was the prosecutor, by the way, in the Pizza Connection case, they absolutely refused to say who killed Delonte in that case? [10:39] They came out and said in the indictment and in testimony, three unknown males killed Delonte. [10:46] Now, people talk about it’s easy to see. Bruno and Delicato did it. So you want to tell me that five and six years after the hit, FBI agents that were on the Banano squad, they couldn’t come out and say Bruno and Delicato did it. Why? Because they knew he didn’t. They didn’t want to get a perjury rap. Richard Martin didn’t want to blow his case by telling nonsense that Bruno and Delicato did it. If it was common knowledge that Bruno Indelicato did it, and if there was a legitimate shred of evidence that Bruno Delicato did the work, the Pizza Connection case would have also said Bruno Indelicato is one of the shooters. It did not. That’s what doesn’t pass the smell test. But they even went to an appellate court to throw out any testimony about Galante’s murder in the Pizza Connection case. And sure enough, the judge agreed and said, yeah, we’re not putting one stitch of Galante’s murder in the Pizza Connection case. Now, had those FBI agents in the Bonanno Squad had presented legitimate evidence against Bruno and Delicato in the Pizza Connection case, be it ballistic, be it anything, the judge wouldn’t have done that, but he did. Read the transcripts of the case we have. There was nothing like that presented against Bruno in that case. And again, that’s why the FBI in the Pizza Connection case kept saying, we have no idea who killed Carmine Galante. That is critical for people to understand. [12:10] And last note, I want to get on to people wondering about the Joe Messino angle. Yes, Joe Messino, when he flipped right out after his conviction, he gave up murders all the way back from 1969. Now, Joe Mezzino had a motivation. If he left out any crime or any detail and failed to disclose anything, they throw him out of the program. They did the same to gas pipe case, so they threw him out of the program. So Joe Messino, of course, is going to tell the feds every single thing he knew about the Bonanno family’s involvement with the Galante hit. [12:46] Joe Messino, you know, did come out and say, yes, he got the order and he informed Rusty about the hit. But notice that’s when the trail stops. Joe Messina, who was a hands on guy, never came back and said, hey, Sonny Red did the hit with his kid Bruno and his brother JB. He gave them no details why because he didn’t have details thank you so much again for all of your questions and comments so guys that’s matt’s reasoning and that’s his story the government did not charge or convict any of the others for this murder any other people for this murder in that commission trial now those guys who were convicted were convicted for racketeering under rico and the murder of Galante was not a racketeering. That was a criminal predicate offense that proved that there was an organization known as a commission. It existed, and they ordered criminal acts. And this was a criminal act that they ordered. They need a predicate act where they’ve ordered criminal acts. And the Galante hit was one of them, and murder’s the best one to throw out there. And I think they convicted him based on his palm print on the getaway car that they found. [13:55] They never claimed during the trial to know the other two hit men. So I’ll leave it up to you guys to argue this out in the comments section on my YouTube shows with Matt or on this one here. And he’ll be monitoring those and, you know, come back with any questions that you have. So thanks, Matt, for this interesting look at Young Associates of Gotti and the fireworks business and the horse race fixing business and your theory based on information from your friends in the younger element of the New York mob. And you were kind of on the periphery of that yourself and the people that you [14:29] talked to that were really basically were involved in this hit and the setup. I thought it was really slick using cops to block out parking spots and then to pull out if it was all good to go. And leave the area so that’s uh didn’t have ring cameras and all the cameras back then so we’re gonna never know how much all that’s true you know but it’s uh history is is kind of an agreed upon set of facts or lies or whatever because eventually we agree upon it and that’s becomes the history and this is some of the history of the new york mob in the 70s to the 80s and the murder of Lilo or Carmine the Cigar Galante. Thanks, guys, so much for tuning in. And don’t forget to hit on YouTube, like and subscribe. Post this on your own social media pages and let other people know about the show. We like to get a lot of people watching or listening and watching to the show.  

Transcribed - Published: 1 May 2026

Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins reports his previous contributor, Matt, who he interviewed on a new theory on the Carmine Glante hit, answers questions we have seen on various social media outlets. Matt claims the U.S. attorney and the FBI got it wrong when they alleged and convicted Bruno Indelicato for this murder. Challenging the official story, Matt reveals new theories, missing evidence, and the role of younger mobsters in one of the Mafia’s most infamous assassinations. In this bonus episode, I had Matt record his answers to the doubters of his theory.  Click the title to purchase. Made In Long Island: Boss of All Bosses Carmine Galante  Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 1 May 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins takes a deep dive with his guest Matt into the assassination of Carmine Galante—one of the most infamous mob hits in American history. Matt co-authored a book titled Made In Long Island Matt begins by analyzing the controversial footage captured at the Ravenite Social Club shortly after the murder. While federal investigators interpreted the scene as a celebration by those responsible, Matt challenges that narrative. He breaks down the body language and behavior of key figures, including Bruno Indelicato, suggesting the footage actually reflects anger and exclusion—not guilt. The episode introduces guest Matt, co-author of Made on Long Island, who provides an insider’s perspective on the inner workings of organized crime. Matt prefers to not give his last name. Together, they explore how the Galante hit fit into a broader power struggle within the Bonanno crime family and beyond. Matt cowrote this book with Bartley Scarbrough. Matt tells a little-known story about Mob dealings with Fireworks around the 4th of July. One story is about a closed store and how they made up for the closed store and gave a fireworks show on the 5th and most of the kids never knew. The conversation expands to include major mob figures such as John Gotti and Sonny Red Indelicato, examining the shifting alliances and rivalries that shaped the events leading up to the assassination. Matt shares firsthand stories of mob life, detailing how communication relied on coded language and payphones—tools that kept operations hidden in plain sight. Gary and Matt dissect the planning behind the hit, revealing a calculated operation involving surveillance, weapon disposal, and carefully constructed alibis. They also address the aftermath, focusing on law enforcement’s inability to definitively link the crime to certain suspects—raising questions about whether individuals like Indelicato were wrongly accused.   A central theme emerges: the gap between official narratives and the complex realities of organized crime. Matt argues that investigative misinterpretations—particularly by federal authorities—led to flawed conclusions and, potentially, unjust prosecutions. This episode challenges long-held assumptions about the Galante murder, offering listeners a more nuanced view of Mafia politics, loyalty, and betrayal. It’s a detailed reexamination of a landmark mob hit—and a reminder that the truth is often far more complicated than the headlines. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. Transcript [0:00] Yeah, if you could just hold the frame right there, I think it’s very important [0:03] to set the stage of what we have here. This is a meeting of Bonanno crime family members, very high up ones, in front of Neil Delacroche’s Gambino headquarters on Mulberry Street, known as the Ravenite. Now, the feds used this tape to say that Bruno Indelicato was part of a conspiracy to murder Galante and that this tape shows the celebration. It does not. This tape is an absolute beef being put in primarily by Sonny Red and Delicato because he was supposed to do the hit jointly with the Gambino family led by John Gotti. He’s furious because at this point in time, he thinks he’s left out of the head. And just before you roll it, this video basically proves to every law enforcement person and every Cosa Nostra member that the people in this video did not do the murder. You don’t go out in Cosa Nostra, commit one of the biggest hits ever, a triple homicide, and then show your face an hour later. It does not work that way. So if you roll the tape, we can see some of the body language on these guys as well. [1:08] The guy in the white is Stefano Canone. He is the family’s consigliere, [1:13] which is technically third in charge, an advisory role. He is already at the Ravenite when everyone else arrives. A key figure in this is Sonny Red in Delicato Wearing a black jacket you’ll see His son is in the white shirt there The younger fellow that’s Bruno in Delicato The only guy that was convicted of this crime Now look at what’s going on here This is not a celebration They’re in the face of him And they’re furious And stop right there if you could, The gentleman in the black jacket right there. [1:44] Sonny, Red, and Delicato, he takes a couple steps back from his consigliere, which is technically his boss, and he turns around in fury, and he’s angry because, again, his team, led by him, was left off the head. Notice also, if you want to keep rolling the tape, he goes to his glasses. This is an absolute sign of anger, as per our body language experts, who, by the way, don’t even know who these people are. The only thing they know is this is a dispute, not a celebration. You notice that when he puts his hand up by his glasses? Now he thinks a little bit better of it because that’s his boss he’s talking to. And that’s a very good sign here. Again, another angle of this is in the Pizza Connection case in 1985. [2:27] Not only in the indictment, but also in FBI testimony, when asked who killed Carmen Galante, they did not say it was Bruno and Delicato and two other masked assailants. They said it was three unknown masked assailants that killed him. That’s what their testimony was. Everybody on the Cosa Nostra side and on the law enforcement side knows what this is. No mob guy commits a triple murder and then goes out to run to a place that we used to refer to as the FBI screen test, which was the Ravenite in Lower Manhattan and Mulberry Street. Everybody knows it, and it’s about time the story gets told, [3:05] and you’re going to see a lot more of this. Hey, all you wiretappers. Good to be back here in studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit Sergeant, and I have a guy here who has a different story and what he would say the real story behind the murder of Carmine Galante. Now, guys, there’s three monumental hits in organized crime history, I would say. The Galante hit… [3:33] Big because of the cigar in his mouth and that picture that was captured, but he was also an important hit in Mob. Now we also had the Anastasia. Anastasia was important and it was also got important, more important because of the photographs. Paul Castellano was important, I think more because of John Gotti than anything, but Carmine Galante and Matt here knows a lot about that hit and a lot about an alternative story to what really happened as it was reported it in the media. So welcome, Matt. Thank you so much for having me on, Gary. I really love your program. I’m happy to be here. All right, Matt, you got a book made on Long Island. Let’s just show everybody the copy of that. There you go, guys. There’s a copy of the book. It’s available on Amazon right now, right, Matt? [4:25] It certainly is. Thank you for putting it up. And one little sentence I’ll draw attention to at the bottom is, no AI was used in this. I know a lot of books are coming out now and people using AI, which I personally think is garbage. This is all handwritten and 440 pages of story after story. Yeah, there’s a lot to it. I guess you were writing under the name of Bartley Scarborough. Yeah, Bart is a good guy. He’s a friend of mine who actually started organizing this with me literally about 15, 20 years ago. Just to give everybody the timetable, we could not release this stuff till now because everybody with criminal culpability is now deceased or one guy is doing life in jail without the possibility of parole for another crime. That’s why we waited so long. Bart organized this stuff. He had me go over the thoughts. And he actually, I don’t know how much he’s going to want to talk about it, but he actually was there when we spoke to some of our friends who gave us extreme detail about this. But in terms of the actual writing, I actually penned it all myself with Bart’s assistant. All right, great. And as you know by now, it’s no easy task to write, especially 400-some pages. That’s a lot of words. That’s a lot of work, guys. Trust me, that is a lot of work. [5:41] You’ve got to keep going over it. Good writing is hard because it takes about three rewritings to actually get it out. Did you find that? [5:51] I did. It’s definitely extremely hard to do with volumes like this going over the past so many years. And plus getting the information from our friends, it was extremely hard to do. It was very time consuming. And I need to stress for the audience, I was not present when any of these major crimes like the homicides went down. I was present for the other things in the book, horse racing, which I’m sure we’re going to talk about later, major fireworks sales. But I need the audience to know that I was not present when the homicides went down, even though I was a juvenile at the time, and that from the proceeds of the fireworks sale and the horse racing, I did not pocket the proceeds like other people did. I know there’s lawyers out there, and I’m paying some $1,000 an hour. I apologize to people, but the lawyers told me 100 times I need to make those facts clear. Okay. All right. You did not do any of this, but you were right next to people who did do this. So we’re talking about firsthand information, correct? That is correct. Now, again, I was there for some of the stuff. I was there for some of the entity in the book. I was definitely there for the major league fireworks deals and participated in those. The horse racing that we’ll get to later, I was there for that. But in terms of the hard stuff, the stuff with no statute of limitations, homicides, I was not there. [7:12] So tell me about these group of guys that you grew up with, that you started doing some of these things. We have some kind of interesting personalities in there. Tell us about those guys. Oh my gosh. We had a real collection of characters is the only way to put it. Now, growing up when we were very young, let’s call it 11, 12, 13, we all really had two goals in mind. We wanted to make money and we wanted to play sports at that age. And that’s what we did. We made money on anything, paper routes, shoveling snow, raking leaves. And what happened was being so competitive, we got into a feud with another group in the same town. Now, there’s no way around it. We were idiots at this age. Some of our guys were carrying guns. Two of the guys in particular, their parents, what we call, were on the job, which means they were cops. So they had access to guns. Another guy was able to get us guns. So the bottom line is you’ve got 13-year-old kids who… That have no fuse carrying guns. Here is where it all started. [8:11] My uncle, like my cousin’s dad, came to one of the baseball games, and we had no idea that he knew the other coaches. And all of a sudden, they realized these kids are carrying guns. They’re going to kill each other. So they sat us down, disarmed us. It’s a pretty funny thing that’s in the book. I remember my uncle saying, whoever has a weapon, you put it on the table right now. I take a sock out of my pocket. He’s, what’s wrong with you? He goes, I asked for weapons, not your dirty laundry. I go, there’s a 25 inside the sock. He was shocked. But what they did was this. They disarmed us. They said, you want to kill each other with fists? Go at it. But we have a better idea. Why don’t you sell fireworks? Why don’t you work for us? You’ll make money doing this. First year, we only had about a week before the 4th of July. We sold out a couple pallets that they had. Now, the second year, I said, can we get these same prices? They said absolutely We went nuts to sell this stuff We ended up with an order for $85,000, And that’s how the order was so big That John Gotti got brought into this He was their boss at the time That’s how we met him And again, people say John Gotti, John Gotti Well to us at the time John Gotti was the same as John Smith The name meant nothing to us. [9:26] So some of these guys, older guys that you started dealing with that sat you down were relatives. There were members of the Gambino family then of Gotti’s crew. That is correct. Yep. Yep. They actually had two guys out of the three guys that sat us down. And by the way, none of us, myself included, ever had even the slightest inkling that these guys were involved in organized crime. You actually had two guys that were Gambino guys and one guy who was also a coach who was with the Genovese. [9:54] That was the actual makeup of the three guys that sat us down. And this was that. What towns are you talking about out there in Long Island? Kind of guys that listen from New York. Sure. This is actually Syosset, believe it or not, which was a upper middle class area. Nice and calm, crime free. And again, most of everybody that was with us was from Syosset. [10:19] Interesting. So the fireworks thing, I’ve always wondered about that. I’ve noticed in Kansas City, the mob guys, several of them every year have these huge, big firework tents. And I started asking around. I found out that they might make $100,000 in about two or three weeks time off those fireworks. There must be immense profit in it. And it’s so that kind of profit and kind of a gray area crime, if you will, in some cities, they don’t allow fireworks to be sold or even to be shot off. Mob likes to get into that and make that money. So tell us a little bit more about how that worked. Who were your customers? You guys went out into the community and sold more. You were more like you weren’t retailers. You were more like found other people to retail. It sounds to me like tell me the nuts and bolts of how that worked. [11:05] That is exactly correct. Now, the first year when they gave us the two pallets with about five or six days, maybe a week before the 4th of July, we sold those strictly to local people we know. And by the way, as kids, we loved fireworks ourselves. We still do. I do. I can speak for myself. We love this stuff. Now, when I saw the prices, for example, that these guys can get us, and I’ll use a barometer, very common in New York, a mat of firecrackers, which is a pack of 80 packs inside, 16 firecrackers to a pack. You could buy that for $8 And it would just fly like hotcakes These guys were selling us the stuff At $3 a mat So all these prices Were anywhere from. [11:49] 70, sometimes even 80% cheaper than what we could sell them for. So the profit, like you said, was utterly enormous. Now we had a full year to work our second year because they said, yes, sell as much as you want, go ahead and get the pre-orders. We contacted everybody we knew. All of our guys had people in other places, Huntington, the town of Huntington, we did big business, other places out in Suffolk and even somewhere in the city. [12:13] And again, for young kids at that age to put together an order for $85,000. She knocked everybody. And that’s what really got their attention. And for that kind of money being fronted to us, that’s why they had to bring their boss in, which was John. The other thing that really shocked us too, I was worried about getting caught. Now the legal penalties for getting caught was nothing. Five or $10 fine, nothing on your record. It was nothing. However, the police could take all your firearms. If they took money like that from young kids, we’re finished. Our lives are over. and to be honest, the organization solved that for us. They sat us down with cops. The cops told us to our face, you will never have a problem. Don’t worry about it. And once I heard, that’s when I told our guys, go ahead and sell as much as you can, and that’s when we got the order for the two tractor trailers. I knew at that point in time, the risk is pretty much gone. Yes, there’s a risk of getting robbed, but we had two of our guys’ older brothers who were a really severe, a tough guy, one that’s referenced in the book a lot, Bubbles. And again, he’s a deceased, and we’ll talk about him more in terms of the Galante hit. So people that are going to rob us really would be like, why would I rob these guys? Look at who they’re with. So in my opinion, we had no risk, and that’s why we went nuts with this. [13:30] That’s the beauty of working with the mob. They usually had connections with law enforcement that could get you protected. Now, you brought Gotti into it. Tell us about meeting Gotti for the first time. [13:39] Was he all that, like they say? Was he just this real charismatic personality that you just wanted him to like you and wanted to do what he wanted you to do? What was that like? I’m glad you brought it up because I’m going to tell you that’s the funniest thing that ever happened to any of us in our lives. And I suspect it might have been one of the funniest things that ever happened to him. When we got this order for the two-tracked trailers, he wanted to meet us with some of his other people. One that turned out to be Angelo, quack, quack, Angelo Ruggiero. And we decided to meet at our friend’s house over in Syosset. It was during a school day, but we had no risk because his dad was a New York City cop. His dad wasn’t there. His mom would be out the whole day playing a card game she played called Mahjong. So we said, yeah, let’s do it at his house. Now, these guys show up. Again, we’re teens. We’re 13, 14, 15 in that range. One, a couple guys maybe a couple years older. And these guys were like in their low 30s. That’s all John Gotti was age-wise when we met him, I would say. [14:39] No older, I wouldn’t think, than 35. I could do the math, but right in that range. All nice cars, nice suits. They come in with all the samples. So we lay them all around my friend Jeff’s house I’m talking about in his stoves, his mother’s piano, the couches and everything And they’re going over stuff and they’re saying, look This stuff here comes $48 to a case Your price, I’m just making up numbers for argument’s sake Your price is $175 a case on this one You can easily sell this stuff for $600 or whatever the numbers were So we’re shocked Now to set the stage My friend’s mom was really A kind of a crazy lady she was very Loud and she was extremely Opinionated if not wild She would always kid my not kid She was serious to my friend Jeff saying You’re a no good bum this Boy’s gonna end up in jail she would berate Our friend into the ground I mean this kid was crazy believe me this kid was Driving us to school at 14 and 15 years Old didn’t have a worry in the world So Yeah. [15:40] This is where the humor came in. She came home unexpectedly. Apparently, one of the card players didn’t show up. They couldn’t do it. She walks into her house, and she sees fireworks all over. She sees us with guys who look like gangsters that are 35 years old, and she blows her stack. She screams, who are these hoodlums in my house? What are these devices these criminals have? What is this fool meaning her son done this time with nuts? And I’ll never forget John says to my uncle who was in there He says did you set this up as a gag? Very low so nothing we could hear except a few people And my uncle had a really weird look on his face He goes I wish I could get off that easy So we figure the deal is all over She’s going nuts I run up to her with the price lists And I say Mrs. Goldberg please I know we like to shoot a fire It’s not about that It’s about making money I show her the list And I reference before the matter firecrackers I point to it. I call these guys firework salesmen. That’s what I call John and Angelo. I go, these firework salesmen here can sell us this amount of firecrackers for $3. [16:49] We can sell it all day long for $8. There’s a fortune in this. So then instead of her blowing up, she goes, tell me more. So that was funny enough. So I go through more prices. And just to set the stage for your listeners, a lot of people in New York might know this term. People outside might not. I’m a Christian, but if you have a non-Christian, Jewish people call him Goy or Goyim. She’s looking at the lists, and she explodes in the loudest voice you’ve ever heard. If the Goyim will buy these devices, then sell them to the Goyim we were. We lost it. [17:24] She said that Angelo, my uncle, a bunch of the guys had to go outside. And I stepped outside with them, too, because they didn’t want to insult her and laugh in her face. I don’t know how John stayed in the house with her, but he did for a while. These guys were laughing so hard, tears were coming out of us. So the neighborhood girls that we knew saw these guys all dressed in suits. They thought we were crying, and they sincerely asked, are you guys okay what happened? It was because we were laughing so hard we started crying. So I said, let me get in here. The fireworks deal is more important. So she went over this stuff with us, telling us how we’re going to make money. Just insanity. The book really expands on this. And then afterwards, when John left the house, he also broke down in laughter. He didn’t want to do it in front of her. He couldn’t take it. Out of respect, he didn’t want to laugh in someone’s face like that. But he walked two doors down, and he freaking lost it. So I think it’s got to be one of the funniest things he’s ever had happen to him in his life. He said it was. And it just got crazier from there. [18:19] Now, was Angelo Ruggiero with him? He was his right-hand man. Was he there on this deal? Yeah, Angelo was there with him. Yep, he sure was. What was he like to deal with as a person? I’ve interviewed his son who has a show. What was he like? Was he funny? He seemed like he talked a lot and was a funny guy. I’m just curious. He did. And again, in the account that you guys are going to read about in the book, Tommy, who’s the main character in this book, who again, deceased and gave me all the interactions he had with him, explains what a nice guy he was. I know he had a violent side. I know he has a lot of hits under his belt, but he was apparently a ton of fun. [18:59] When I interacted with him, I thought he was freaking hilarious. And as you’ll see in the book, Angelo is really the one who fed all the inside information nonstop to our buddy Tommy, Tommy, who at that time was playing cards over at John’s Club in Ozone Park, the Bergen, very regularly at that point in time. And the book really traces Tommy about what happened, his interactions with Angelo, his interactions with everybody else. And when you get to the whole crux of the matter, Angelo is the one who told our good friend Tommy that, hey, the commission has authorized a hit on Galante. And the hit is to be done jointly with our family, meaning the Gambinos, and with the Bananos. And that John was going to be the leader of the Gambino faction. [19:48] Sonny Red and Delicato was going to be the leader of the Banano faction, and Joey Messino was not only the one taking the messages to and from Rusty, which is the Philip Mestelli in jail, but Joe Messino was going to supervise the entire operation. So that was the structure of it. Yeah, that’s what I’ve read about it. And also what you’re saying about Angelo Ruggiero is that’s one reason the Bureau was able to learn so much about Castellano because he would go to meetings at Castellano’s house, if I remember right, come back home and get on the phone or have some people come over. And he talked to him about, he said this and he said this and he said that and he said this. That gave him probable cause then to go into Castellano’s house. So he was known to be loose lips, and that’s why he got the moniker quack quack, I’ve heard. But I also heard it was because of the way he walked, so I’m not sure. No, that’s true. Both of what you’re saying is true. And just to touch on him one more time, very important. He loved my friend Tommy because Tommy got him out of more than a couple of jams. I’ll give an example. There was a guy in the Gambino family up in Connecticut. John always referred to him as the genius Tony Mungali And he put a firework sorter in with Angelo. [21:06] Now, this guy blew his stack because no fireworks came, and he had promised the entire neighborhood a gigantic fireworks show. He had his friends, his people of his family over there, neighbors and no fireworks. This guy blew his stack, and this story is detailed in the book. Tommy got a call from another Gambino guy the morning of July 5th, very early. He was still hungover from partying the night before. He said, oh, my God, what’s this about? It’s got to be something bad. Did somebody blow their hand off with fireworks? What’s going on? And the bad news was that this Tony had put a beef in saying, what’s wrong with you people? You didn’t do what you said. And he was blaming Angelo. Tony was all over Angelo. And the bottom line is Tony was right. It was Angelo’s fault. However, my friend Tommy never threw Angelo under the bus. My friend Tommy ate it. And he basically, it’s a real good recounting in the book. And there’s so many stories like this. There’s hundreds of them. But I’ll give you this one real quick. [22:03] Like, so Tommy basically told Tony Mengele, listen, how old are the kids that you promised this big fireworks show to? And Tony blew up. He’s like, what the F does it matter how old the kids are? But my friend Tommy was smart and he was going somewhere. He’s like, listen, these kids don’t know the difference between July 5th and July 4th. We’re going to come to your house tonight. We’re going to give it the most insane fireworks show anybody in your area has ever seen. We don’t want a dime. We’re so sorry this mistake happened They go up there I was with them at that point. [22:38] Nothing but fun. So welcoming. And again, my buddies, none of us would ever throw Angelo under the bus. And believe me, Tony and his uncle, Sandalo, he tried to pin it on Angelo. We said, no, it’s not his fault. It’s not his fault. Bottom line is those guys loved us. One of Tony’s workers ended up being a gigantic fireworks customer of ours. And to the best of my knowledge to this day, and I’m not involved in it in the slightest, To this day, all one of his guys does is sell fireworks in the Connecticut region. Makes a fortune. Interesting. And so that’s a wild story. But again, Angelo loved Tommy because so many times Tommy would say, look, Angelo didn’t do this. I did. What did Angelo do in return? He gave Tommy so many different pieces of information. And again, I won’t bog you down, but each one of these stories is so interesting. Angelo had some fireworks clubs that he made money on. [23:32] There’s no other way to put it. Angelo was not working much at all. And then one of these meetings, John brought everyone in and said, listen, from now on, these clubs that sell fireworks, particularly Oceanside, New York, Long Beach, Bayville, Massapequa, he goes, I’m giving them to you guys to run. And now, obviously, none of us want anything to do like that. We’re going to cut out his friends. We’re going to end up in a freaking meat grinder or end up in a cement truck. So we all told John we didn’t want it. John said, that’s it. It’s over. It’s yours. so then our next step was to make sure we figured out how much roughly those guys were making. [24:05] I give my friend tommy all the credit in the world he ended up giving angelo more money by a lot, for using the place than angelo ever made doing work and this time angelo doesn’t have to do any work angelo loved us all these guys loved us because we paid them more than they made and now they didn’t have to do a damn thing so our guys were very smart and calculating particularly Tommy, but some of the other ones. And that was a good Angelo story. Yeah, it is. And I’ve read that not only Gotti and in his neighborhood, but other mob guys around in New York and their neighborhoods, they would put on a huge fireworks shows for everybody in the neighborhood every year. Gotti particularly was noted for that. That is interesting, their love for fireworks and fireworks shows. Did they ever front you these things? Did they front you money or did Did they buy the fireworks? [24:56] You guys made this money each year, but I’m sure you’d spend it all. Then the following year, you’d have to come up with money. How did that work? The money worked. You wanted to be able to pay them back if they fronted anything. [25:08] Yes. You have a bunch of good questions here. I’m going to backtrack one second on what you said about guys in the life loving fireworks. That is a hundred percent fact. Love the fireworks and the stuff that people see at some of the celebrations over at the Bergen. Yeah, that was rooted from our guys providing it. Now, here is one of the reasons why John turned over these four locations to us. He had complaints from multiple people. Castellano, I believe Michael Franzese people. These guys went to the fireworks locations on the best days, like July 2nd and July 3rd, and they were closed. And John blew up at that. He’s making me look like a freaking idiot. I’m telling Castellano’s people, it could have been his nephews or little cousins or whatever, go to this place to load up with fireworks for free. These guys go to the place and it’s closed that’s one of the motivating factors why john, turned that business over to us we had it open all the time now in terms of fronting stuff absolutely the money was enormous those guys fronted it to us all the time big loads that’s just how it was young kids like that we can come up with anything near that kind of money. [26:14] And just another tidbit too the lady i told you about who would go wild when we were doing the deal. She offered to fund some money up too. And that’s detailed in the book as well. But yeah, as we got it to like year number three, I don’t remember us ever putting a penny up after year three. It was all fronted to us. Was it all cash too? When you went out to these clubs and these people with the neighborhoods and stuff, would they always just give you cash each year? [26:40] That is a great question, and the answer is yes for the people we retailed to, yes for the people that walked into the stores. However, we had wholesale customers that we would give credit to. Now, I’ll give you this story, which is also detailed in the book real quick. There was a street gang in Huntington. They were known as the Huntington Hitters, primarily Hispanics. They gave us an order, and one of our good friends got back from a younger kid that he helped out before that his older brother was intending to rob us when we dropped off the fireworks. [27:14] So we had what I thought was a brilliant plan made. Tommy was very instrumental in this, and I gave some feedback too. We told these guys, come meet us at this bar out on Jericho Turnpike in Huntington. We have some additional fireworks we want to show you guys and see if you want it, which was a lie. But we knew that they wouldn’t rob us then because we didn’t have anything honest. Let me tell you what we brought to that meeting. We brought Bubbles and two of his guys that were freaking deadly people. And they had freaking gym bags with them. And they said, don’t worry anything about security when we do this deal. And they showed him stuff inside the bags, heavy duty weaponry. So right away, these Huntington hitter group said, these are the wrong people to rob. So sure enough, right on cue, a day or two later, they called my buddy and said, you know what? We don’t want to do the fireworks business. We can’t. That I petitioned, and I got a few of my friends to agree, and Tommy definitely went with it too. You know what? These guys can make a fortune doing this. Let’s front them five or ten grand worth of this stuff and see what happens. And I’m like, it’s not going to cost us anything. Number one, I don’t think they’re going to rob us. If they do, what did we lose? $1,500 at the most? My friends said we were nuts, but we went with it. And I want to tell you, smartest move we ever made. [28:29] As every year we went by, we fronted them more and more. They were our first customer that we ever fronted a full tractor trailer to. Never had a problem getting one cent from them. It’s funny how that evolved. It’s just absolute madness. But again, I give Tommy a lot of the credit here and some of the other guys very sharp to come up with a business plan like this. [28:52] I tell you, this little crew you got in with early on, they were a bunch of hustlers. But you also had this deal with Gotti and horse racing and getting inside information on horse racing. There’s some pretty good stories there that are in the book. Tell the guys a little bit about that point. Then we’ll move on to the Galante hit. [29:11] Absolutely. Now, horse racing was interesting. We would go to a place called Roosevelt Raceway, which is over in Westbury, Long Island. Really not that far from where we lived over in Syosset. Now, again, I know the law was probably you had to be 18 to make a bet. They didn’t care. I was making bets there at 12 and 13 years old. I’ll tell you this one time that they did care, and I’ll get to that at the end of the question you asked, and you’ll see why. So we were clowns, but even as clowns, we could see it. If a horse, these were harness racing, by the way. If a harness race is coming down the stretch, you didn’t have to be a genius to see that one or two of these horses would hold back, but the other two jockeys would whip the crap out of their horses. So naturally, we felt cheated, even at young ages. Our guys were definitely certified. There’s no question about that. Our guys would throw things at the freaking jockeys. I’m talking about golf balls, rocks. Our guys were insane. And a lot of that stuff is detailed in the book, how crazy we were. But to get to your point, after I think it was the third or fourth year, John walked with Tommy. [30:17] And he said, you guys are bringing in so much money and doing so well. I want to give you a gift. And I remember Tommy, because myself and a little bit of Bart, but myself, I had to pull all this out of my friend Tommy. He knew he was going to pass away. And he wanted this story out in the public. Now, this guy, Tommy, never wanted his real name used, but he gave me detail after detail. Some of the stuff, like I’m explaining with the fireworks and the horse racing, I was there myself to see. But on the heavy stuff, he gave me detail after detail. same with a little bit to Bart. So this is how Tommy explained it to us. John gave him a sheet of paper and Tommy being a smartest said, oh, what is this, John? You want me to go play the freaking lottery with these numbers? What do these numbers mean? John, you smartest. Here’s what the numbers mean. The first number was the number of the race at Roosevelt Raceway. The next four numbers were the only four horses that could win. Usually these races had eight horses in them. Once in a while, seven, once in a while, nine, but eight was the norm. Those are the only four horses that can win. And for the audience, I want to explain to them how that’s possible. [31:24] Let’s say you have an eight horse harness race and you tell four of the jockeys, no matter what happens, you are not to come in the top. They’ll hold the horses back. And by the way, this is not just conjectural rumor. These guys got locked up for it later on down the line, jockeys and everybody what they were doing is it hold the four horses back the organization would have no idea what horse was going to win they just knew which four wouldn’t so what did they didn’t bet winner plays to show they would bet exactus triples and sometimes super factors which means all four and box those four around some yeah so in your example. [32:03] Basically, John gave our buddy Tom three races, and Tommy knew that this has got to be damn better than a tip. It has to be rock solid. So what happened was we all went there, and we knew nothing about it. We didn’t know that we should just bet a small amount of money. We had no knowledge about damaging a pool, so I’ll make it easy for the listeners. Tommy overbet these races like crazy. For example, if a three combination triple should pay $1,500, the first thing the FBI and the New York Racing Authority would ask is, why did this $1,500 triple pay only $400? And the reason is, and they knew it because the race was fixed. So everybody was betting those combinations. Now, the organization was smart enough to only bet small amounts of money, and they used the term not to damage the pool. That was a term they used all the time. We don’t want to damage the pool. [33:04] Again, throw us in the mix. We had absolutely no idea. We didn’t know any of this. So Tommy bet the crap out of these races, and he did damage the pool. And that brought the attention of the authorities. But worse than that, another long story in the book goes back to the Connecticut people, because I think the genius Tony Mengele was the one helping to fix the races. So they figured there was a leak on their side. And John Gotti actually thought he was going to get killed over this. And he told people, including Angelo, I might not be coming back from this meeting. I got sent for here. The horse pulls bad because John was really running the horses with Tony and some other guys. Tony grabbed him by chance outside of the Ravenite, Mr. Neal’s club, and they walked. [33:52] And Tony apparently was furious, like, yeah, let’s kill whoever damaged the pool, whoever did this. And then John apparently told him it was us. And then Tony says, oh, man, those fireworks guys, I love those guys. He goes, okay, nothing’s going to happen here. So apparently Tony went into the meeting, and he basically lied to the people there, Castellano and Neil Delacroach, and he says, listen, I found out the leak. The leak is on our side, and I’ll take care of it. And that’s how it worked But again, that ties back to the fireworks If that never happened, I don’t know what would have happened John had every intention of going in there and saying he’s screwed up He didn’t explain to us And he had no business giving us the numbers And he knows that, He did not have permission to give us anything at the racetrack He took it on himself to do it, And he got saved by that stroke of luck Of meeting Tony in front of the club before the meeting Had someone been outside, whoever Tommy Bellotti or anybody said Hey, get inside, the meeting’s going on Those two would not have had a chance to talk. I don’t know what would have happened, but I think it would have been very bad for Sean. Yeah, would have been. Yeah, that’s interesting. Now, explain to the guys about the pool. Everybody doesn’t know about the pool. [35:04] These exactors and trifectas, how that pool works. That is a great question because we had to have it explained to us. Let’s take any racetrack, and the first number you’re going to have is how many people bet on what’s focused on triples. Now, the definition of a triple is horses come in the order of one, two, three. So if you bet a 7-4-3 triple, the race must end 7-4-3 for you to hit that triple. Now, the next variation of that is if you like the 7-4-3, what most people will do is they will do what’s called boxing that triple, which means they have 7-4-3 and that’s a winner. [35:43] But so is 4-3-7. So is any combination. So is 2-7-4. [35:49] 3-7-4. Any of the combination of your three horses win. Now, they can tell what a triple should pay based on the amount that’s spent and what the odds are. Let’s say you have a horse that’s a mid shot, like an 8 or 10 to 1. You have a favorite in there and maybe a halfway of a little bit of a long shot. They know what that should pay in a certain range. Now, if you know that race was fixed, and by the way, it’s all pari-mutual, so the weighting is average. If you’ve got $10,000 in a triple pool and you have 10 winning tickets, each ticket’s going to get paid $1,000. And they would know that’s legitimate and that’s honest. And there should be about 10 people with those combinations. Now, if you have that same $10,000 worth of triple pool, and again, these are round numbers. It’s way higher, just for an example. and all of a sudden you’ve got 105 winning tickets when mathematically there should be 10 or 15 at the most the money drops that thousand dollar prize now might be 210 dollars and that’s what the feds and everyone new york racing authority looks for if you have a horse that’s eight to one first place let’s say ten to one second place and let’s say five to two third place that triple should pay something like, I’m guessing, $400, $500, $600 around that range. If that triple pays only $150, right away they know that somebody knew something. [37:16] Too many people bet on that combination. They know how many people probably will bet on any certain combination. And when that gets skewed, too many people bet on one combination, then they know something’s up. Interesting. That’s like these new sports prop bets in the apps on gambling, on the apps on sports. If all of a sudden there’s a whole lot of money goes out on some team on the spread and too much money goes down in one place, then they know there’s something going on. Somebody knows something and they start looking. [37:48] Exactly. They start looking and you make a great point about today’s sports betting. If you have a basketball player, and again, this is not conjecture. There’s already been indictments on this. Let’s say the guy is supposed to have 11 rebounds in a game. All of a sudden, when he has nine, he tells the coach, man, I hurt my ankle. I can’t play anymore. Now, if the balance was normal on his under and his over, no problem. What do we all know happens? The under money bet on this guy is radical. It’s a 95 to 5 ratio. They know right away it’s fixed. And that’s what I believe the guy in Toronto, the Toronto Raptors was doing. And so many other ones were too, but that’s everywhere. We were involved in that way, way back in the day as well, to some degree. We heard so much about it. Yeah, interesting. [38:34] Let’s get into Carmine Galante. The probably most famous, certainly the most famous image, even more famous than Albert Anastasia of Carmine Galante laying there. He was the Bonanno, longtime Bonanno capo and had risen up in the ranks. And he comes out of the penitentiary and Rusty Rustelli is supposed to be the next Bonanno boss. And Carmine decides that he’s going to act like he’s the boss. So let’s talk about how this whole thing started a little bit. That is a great observation. And that’s pretty much how the ball got rolling with those guys. Here’s how we got involved in this. [39:12] We had one of our good friends who was helping us with the fireworks and going to the clubs and having nothing but fun. And then the one night when Tommy was at the club, the cops came in. And I know a lot of people think, oh, Cosa Nostra doesn’t mix with the cops. People will think that they don’t know what they’re talking about. Look at the convictions with gas pipe cases and everybody else. John had guys on his payroll that ended up getting convicted and stuff. [39:39] The cops and Cosa Nostra do work together. despite what everyone else says. Look at us with the fireworks, for example. So anyway, at the card game, what I was told from Tommy is they kept getting messages after messages. And again, these messages at that time would come in over pay phones. There were no cell phones. So you’d have a guy sitting at the pay phone. And as I’m told, most of the messages would be coded numbers. Let’s say Angelo’s number was 167. The guy would just pick up the phone, tell number 167, which is Angelo. [40:11] Another set of code numbers and that might mean hey the cops are coming over now the cops came into the club they came into the bergen and apparently they told everybody listen nobody here is getting locked up we don’t want information we just need to give you some news and from what tommy says because he was there playing cards at the time they told him that our good friend michael had died in a car accident and they wanted to know should they go and wake his dad up and And his dad obviously was in the life made guy and do it that way. Or did John and Angelo perhaps want to go out to the house? They gave him the option to do it. And John and Angelo, of course, jumped at that. And they, whatever they did, they went at the house. I don’t know if they waited till they woke up in the morning, whatever it was and knocked on the door or whatever. But so that’s what happens now at the wake, by the way, just to make the story a little bit more clear, there. [41:09] This was probably our fourth year or so selling fireworks. And every year we sold fireworks, we met more and more people. So many of it is detailed in the book. I can’t even tell you the list of people we met. And you name it, Tony Ducks, Corralo, all these guys. So we’re meeting more and more people. Two in particular that we started hanging out with because they liked us because we were just crazy, drinking, women chasing maniacs, were Baldo and Chesery. And that’s Baldo Amato and Cheshire Bonventry. They were with the Bananos. And we were hanging out with them. They grabbed my friend Tommy at the wake and pulled him away. And everyone’s thinking, oh, they’re really Sicilian. We call them the Zips. They’re tough guys. They probably just don’t want to show their emotions because they love Michael in front of everybody. We didn’t know what was going on. They informed my friend Tommy that our friend, Michael, did not die in a car accident. It was a basic, supposed to be a warning that turned into a hit. [42:12] And Tommy’s, that’s nonsense. The cops told us the car was off the road. The car was a crumpled mess. That’s nonsense. But Baldo insisted and said, no, these guys shot him off the road. So nobody believed any of this. But we came up with the conclusion of, hey, we’re friends with the cops. The cops will take us to the impound yard. Let’s see for ourselves. House so those guys went over there and what tommy says they found bullet holes in like less than a minute they found a couple bullet holes so they knew right away that baldo was telling the truth now all this was going on other people would tell us don’t trust baldo don’t trust chesery the sicilians are the most ruthless cunning backstabbers you’re ever going to meet and i didn’t feel that way and neither did tommy or the other guys that were involved with us our other friends aunt and The whole gang, Gonzo, we didn’t feel that way at all. We thought they really had our best interest. So. [43:08] That stayed quiet, but two of our friends swore on that day, no matter who did this to our friend, Michael, no matter who they are, we don’t care what their rank or anything. [43:19] We’re going to make them pay for what they did. They’re going to have to answer for what they did to our friend. And we know the rules. You can’t touch a maid guy or an associate without getting permission. But we kept everything quiet for another reason. Michael’s dad I referred to as a maid guy. Now, you talk about crazy. This guy was nuts. This guy had no fuse. He’s detailed all over the book. For example, when John O’Neill would tell him to go out and just talk to a guy, don’t hurt him. This guy owes us a couple thousand. Just talk to him. The guy would end up with two broken arms. This guy had no fuse whatsoever. If he ever thought for a minute that somebody had killed his son, the worry was, and I think the worry is correct, he would have gone out and just killed better than adult targets all over the place. Whether they knew anything about it Which 99% of them knew nothing about this He would have just started killing people He would have started a war So that was the reason why the bosses, Did not want him And to his death he never knew that this happened They kept it from him for that reason There was no stopping this guy would have gone on a rampage So that was a big factor in that, So Then you talked before about the card games And Angelo. [44:30] More of these messages came in And my buddy Tommy noticed it And he said, Angelo, what’s going on? And so don’t worry after the card game, I’ll walk you down and we’ll talk to you. Apparently after the card games, Tommy and Angelo would walk down 101st Avenue and have these long talks. And Angelo said to Tommy, the commission has authorized a hit on Carmine Galante. We got the hit. John is our lead. [44:54] We have to do it jointly with the Bananas. Sonny Red is there, and Joe Massino is going to look at the whole thing and supervise the whole thing. So bells went off on my friend Tommy’s head. All of a sudden, he got everybody together. Not me, of course. I was not there when this transpired. I was not there when they organized the hit. But he got the other guys together, and he said, look, this is the guy who killed our friend. We have no risk now because the commissioner wants this guy dead. So these guys came out with what Tommy detailed to me. And by the way, it wasn’t just Tommy who detailed this to us. Bubbles detailed it to us. And there’s one big distinction I need to mention here. Tommy wanted all of this out. He did not want his real name used. [45:40] However, Bubbles wanted his real name used. He used to hang out with general views people. And he told me, he goes, use my name. I want people to know that I did this. And after he passed and that’s why inside the book we do reveal his real name and where he lived and the interesting thing for me was Bubbles and Tommy had no idea that each one of them was talking to me and to a small degree Bart about this so the details that they both gave were exactly the same the most ingenious hit I’ve ever heard of in my life they had police help from the 8-3 precinct over in Bushwick. Apparently, there was some cop over there that hated, I think it was a family dispute of some kind. The guy who was being, I think his grandmother or aunt or somebody was being shaken down by the bananas. So we had that asset. We now had Baldo and Chesery, who were Galante’s top bodyguards. So our guys went out on surveillance for months. And the funny thing about the surveillance was, who else was doing surveillance at the same time? [46:47] John Gotti was, and so was his people. So there was times like when Tommy and the guys would be close to a certain place. And by the way, he was killed at Joe and Mary’s. But that is not the only place that these guys did heavy surveillance on. And it’s not the only place that Galanti hung out at. So the book names a bunch of other places that the surveillance was done. So these guys would be there, and they’d look down the block, and possibly John and Angela were there doing the same surveillance. So they had to leave. Otherwise, John and Angela, what the hell are you guys doing over here? So that was funny to me on that regard But our guys in my opinion Put together the most ingenious hit Down to every single detail. [47:26] Basically took out the police help to help with the zips. The alibi is another crazy part of this. At that time, we would like to do a lot of fishing. We went off to a place called Sentinel Riches in Long Island. And one time we were night fishing over there and we saw guys jump off the boat, get onto smaller boats and come back an hour or two later with bundles. Now you don’t have to be Albert Einstein to realize what they were doing. They were running junk and they were Colombians. Yeah. So I discussed it a little bit with the boat’s captain and he said, just don’t say a word. Don’t go near him. Keep you guys away. We almost had a problem because again, our guys were drunk and our guys were carrying and our guys will, we came close to having a problem. But Tommy put this together. He had the boat captain go out one day and again, he didn’t tell all the people that were with, he didn’t tell his cousin’s crew for Shaw, who was with us that day, our guys jumped off the boat onto a smaller boat, took that boat to the Oak Beach Inn, took stolen cars in on that day, the July 12th, 1979, and they did the hit. [48:35] So Tommy’s uncle was furious with him. He thought he was lying to him. He goes, you’re lying. You were not there. I put you on that boat, which he did. Our friends were drunk and they drove him there on the road. Morning and i picked you up when that boat doc said don’t lie to me you’re on the boat all day and that’s when tommy and again this is detailed in the book like crazy told everybody can you say alibi and what do you mean he goes yeah you just said we were on the boat all day that’s not true, jumped the boat went to the oak beach and took the stolen cars did the work and came back so that was that shocked everybody in the room apparently when tommy was forced to detail, everything that happened on the hit. He even detailed for them all the cars that were involved. He detailed how the marked police cars actually held parking spaces for our guys in front of the place. One was, my understanding, about a half a block north. The other one was about a half a block south of the location over there, which was 205 Knickerbocker. They held the parking spaces. Our guys rolled up. [49:37] And if there was something going on, like, for example, FBI surveillance or unmarked cops in the place, those cop cars were not giving up the space. Our guys would honk and flash at them. But if they did not give up the spaces, the signal to our guys was the place is dirty, leave. So we had a lot of built-in signals like that. And then when they gave up the parking spots, both of the cops moved from one north heading south, one south heading north. What did that do? That let them both take one more scan of the block. Is the block dirty? And if the block was dirty, they were going to blow the sirens and everything was off. But the details, again, that are in the book about this hit are freaking shocking how meticulous it was. [50:22] Interesting. I have one question that Galante’s guy, Cousin Moy, they called him, Angelo Prezzanzano, I probably butchered that, but he was off sick that day. Was he part of it or was he just off sick that day? I’m going to tell you, to be honest, I have no knowledge of that. I know that Boldo and Chessery were the primary bodyguards that day. Yeah, they were there that day. I actually have no knowledge, but the other couple of details that are just beyond fascinating, how our guys operated on this. For example, when the car pulled up with one driver and three shooters, one of the shooters, again, he wanted to be named, so we’re naming him. It was Bubbles. [51:01] And the other two guys, Bubbles was a very big-built guy. He would easily be spotted. Plus, he knew a lot of people in the city. He stayed in the car. The two guys that were normal-built, they went inside. And I want the listeners to understand how skilled these guys were at this hit. [51:19] They had provided Baldo and Chesery with dark jackets that day. Now, I’ve read some stuff that people said, oh, they had big, heavy leather jackets on. That’s a lie. They were lightweight summer jackets. And people said, why do that? The answer is because at that time, people were wearing white and pastels and light clothing. It was burning hot that day in the summer. And if you want to spot somebody in a restaurant, you want them to stick out like a sore thumb. So that was the motivation for those black jackets. Now, check this one out. And again, the book goes through this in so many more details. Our guys walked in prearranged with Baltimore Orioles baseball hats. Because again, keep in mind, Chesaree and Boulder did not have a great command of the English language. They didn’t really 100% know American customs. And we showed them Mets and Yankee hats that everybody has. So now we show them a distinctive bright orange baseball hat with a bird on it that nobody could mistake. Here was the signal. Our guys walked up to them face to face with these hats on. [52:22] Now, that was slick. That was slicker shit, man. It was smart because if the place was hot, if Boldo and Chesery realized there was too many maid guys in there or surveillance guys or FBI in there, they were to immediately tell our guys it’s too crowded today. Only get takeout. Only get takeout. The place is too crowded. That was a signal to our guys to walk out and to tell the people the place is hot. leave. These guys had multiple hot signals here that if something was wrong, they would do it. Now, if they didn’t give those signals, our guys were to turn their hats around. So they walked in with the hats like a normal baseball player. They walked out with the hats like a catch you would wear with his hat on backwards. That was to give Boulder and Chesery the signal, Boulder and Chesery the signal this thing was going down. Now, here’s the most fascinating thing about the story is Tommy recanted for us. That day, July 12th, 79, was supposed to be a dry run. [53:28] And they told everybody, just do it like it’s real. Now, we were all hoping that Bould on Chesaree would do it like it was real, and they did it. They walked out of the place, and they walked north. I believe in their minds, they said, this is a dry run. Nothing’s going to happen. Then they heard the shots, and that’s what happened. And I want to elaborate on this because, again, there’s so much built in here. One of the witnesses said that, and I’ll tell you who the witness was. It was one of the guys who killed his daughter, Torano. His daughter had said that, oh, I saw Baldo crouched over with a gun. Gary, you’re a former detective. You’ve got a scene with four people shot, three dead. And you have a witness saying that a guy was in there with a gun out. You tell me how the guy is not arrested at the very least and tried. And I’m going to give everyone the answer here of why that didn’t happen. And I think it’s pretty clear. [54:25] I’m convinced that the FBI had static surveillance on the place, just like they did to Mr. Neal’s club that we always call the, basically the FBI screen test. Yeah. That’s number one. And, or they had a guy up the street. So I believe what happened here was they looked at what this witness said, and then either their own cameras or a human agent that they had on the streets said, wait a second, we cannot charge these guys. I saw a bold on Chesaree, whatever the number would be, 200 feet up the street before the shots rang out. They’re innocent. They didn’t do the shooting. Otherwise, of course, you got a witness saying, I saw a guy behind a table in a gun in a quadruple shooting, triple homicide, and that guy’s not going to get arrested. So obviously there was something there. [55:16] I was wondering why. And I’m going to take another step for people, too. And again, terrible. Cosa knows the story ever told. But to take this one step further, the cop cars were there. There were two marked cars close in proximity when this went down. I think the FBI might have said, wait a second here. What just happened? One guy that we hate, Galante, is dead. Some other guy, a cap on a maid guy are gone. Look at our cameras. How could we do anything here? There’s marked cops here. I think the feds had to realize the cops played a role in this. [55:50] Let’s just kill it and move on. I think that’s possible. Now, the cop cars were also referenced by Tommy. He told us the meeting that they had. It was a life or death meeting, by the way. When John Gotti and other people went to that meeting, Tommy’s uncle and people like that, there was a good chance none of them were going to come out alive. The book details that Castellano, who everyone knows, wanted to kill John Gotti, had a cast of killers in that building. Roy DeMail’s people were in there. There were people in there that you couldn’t even believe. Nino Gadge’s people in there. Hardcore butchers. They knew how to dispose of and chop up bodies. So in that meeting, apparently what Tommy made clear, and again, we took notes, we went over this for hours, days, literally years. [56:36] Sonny Red and Delicato made the statement in that meeting because, again, Sonny Red and Delicato put in the beef, hey, you guys did this hit without us. John Gotti’s saying, fuck you. Excuse my language. Effu. You guys did the hit without us. Nobody knew who did this hit, and I’ll get to that later. What happened here was that Sonny Red and Delicato and his people made an immediate beef, and we’ll talk about that later, saying, hey, The commission said this is to be a joint hit Between the Bananos and the Gambinos And I can definitely confirm From what they told me, Banano people and Gambino people Were on this hit together and doing surveillance So when Galante got killed Sonny Red and his Banano people Were furious Because they thought John Gotti went off And did a hit against the commission’s wishes At the same time, John Gotti was furious At Sonny Red and his people Thinking they did the work Without them being notified But the thing that Tommy always stressed is, again, that meeting was a death trap. Castellano always hated Gotti. Castellano wanted Gotti out. And this was the chance to do it for breaking the commission rule. So Castellano had hardcore murderers there that day. Roy DeMeo and his crew. [57:49] Incredible. You know, Gadgi, a cast of murderers. And John Gotti being street smart. And again, this is fully detailed in the book. It’s just too much to talk about here. John Gotti had made some very heavy precautions himself. Going into that meeting. But what the catch for me was, Sonny Red and Delicato said something like, whoever did this hit was either the most incompetent hitman ever, or possibly they were zips from Montreal that couldn’t give a crap if they were shot at or in a police shootout or whatever. They just didn’t care. And then Tommy said, what if I tell you that those cops were in on the hit? And that silenced the room. And that’s when Tommy had to come clean and talk about everything about it. And it shocked the people that were in that run that this hit was done like that. But that’s, that’s really how this thing was done. Interesting. Guys, you got to get this book. I’m telling you, Made on Long Island. And there’s a whole lot more details, these behind the scenes details about the Galante hit with some real people involved. It’s a lot different story than what we’ve ever heard. I know that. And even people went to jail behind this. But it was mainly on the say-so of informants who, as we know, will pretty much say anything to get out of there, whatever it is they’re trying to buy their way out of. [59:07] Matt, I’ve got one last question here. We don’t want to give away too much of this book, but what about, didn’t the FBI kind of make bank on the celebration afterwards? [59:19] What would you say about that? Gary, you’re bringing me the most important thing in this book, and this is what I want the listener to understand. Bruno and Delicato did heavy time for this, and he did not do this crime. He’s innocent. And I’m going to throw a few things. You referenced one in the video, and I’m shocked that none of these experts and bloggers ever looked at any of this. But I’m going to tell you exactly what told every member of Cosa Nostra and every cop and every fed worth his salt. Bruno didn’t do this. The FBI claims that the video you referenced was made at that club roughly 50 minutes after the hit. Now, this is the way that a mob hit goes down. The planning is meticulous. The car is prearranged. Who’s going to chop it up and destroy it? The weapons are prearranged. Who’s going to take those and destroy them? The clothing is prearranged. Who’s going to get the clothing and destroy that? A shower is critical These guys were using, as Tommy explained to us This orange cleaning gel That was like a pumice structure And everybody who did a hit would wash themselves For a very long time Especially on places where gunpowder residue Could be like a face, hands And scrape off their skin with this pumice orange gel Type of paste soap. [1:00:42] I want to tell you what the feds want people to believe happens, and you tell me how preposterous this is. They want you to believe that Sonny Red and Delicato, who’s a top hitman, did this hit along with his son and his brother JB and Lucky Phil, and then took the getaway car, didn’t drive it anywhere except to Queens, the opposite direction of Manhattan, by the way, heading east. And you wanted people to believe that Sonny Red and Delicato was going to take a car that was used in a quadruple shooting, triple homicide, and just dump it in broad daylight in Queens. People, this is not what happens. It is a prearranged chop shop where that car is going to go. That’s number one. Number two, look at the timetable. Nobody would have any time To get these things done Dispose of weapons Dispose of clothing Get over to Neal’s Club in Manhattan In that time frame Again that’s why the FBI knew. [1:01:47] Sonny and Bruno And all the Indelicados Had nothing to do with this hit It’s not possible Mob hits don’t work like this No mob hit in the world Ever takes place With the guys who did a hit like this To go somewhere out in the open and get congratulated, it’s not reality, people. It’s not how it works. It’s the opposite. These people are buried in safe houses until their boss tells them, look, everything’s fine right now. You can quiet it down. You guys can come out. Nobody’s going to go out in the open, especially not to Neil Della Croce’s club that we called the FBI screen test. So right away, honest FBI people, honest cops, and everybody in Cosa Nostra knew right away that Bruno, JB, Sonny, Phil Lucky had absolutely nothing to do with the galant they hit. It doesn’t work that way. Now, you specifically brought up that video. This, to me, is a shock. [1:02:42] People say, oh, they’re celebrating. And again, that doesn’t happen. But let’s play along and say that, yeah, they were celebrating. Tell me a celebration that anybody listening to your program ever went to, where you’re going to drive through hellish traffic from now Queens into Manhattan. I know the distance is not that far mileage-wise, but the time sure as hell is. I’ve made the drive many times. You’re going to go to the celebration. You’re going to stay outside, not even go inside the building, and you’re going to leave a minute and a half later. That’s a celebration? No. That’s an infuriating beef. And I want people to watch this video. We have it up on our YouTube channel. I’m going to make sure Gary has it up on his. And you can watch this video as we break it down. [1:03:24] Sonny Red is in the face of his consigliere, Stefano Canone. And at one point in the video, you’ll see Canone. [1:03:32] Take his hand and point in back of him, point it to Mr. Neal’s place, basically saying, look, I’ll register the beef. I’m with you. God, he must have done this. We’re going to register the beef. And another critical thing about this video is what Sonny Red does. Now, we actually had a body language expert look at this stuff. He focuses mostly on card games, shoplifters, stuff like that. But he’s a body language expert. He knew nothing about the mob, knew nothing about who these guys were. And we said, what do you make of this video? He goes, it’s obviously heated. There’s definitely some major points of contention. People are angry. That’s obvious. And the most important point you could see about the anger is Sonny Red is face to face with Stefano Canone. He turns around and then something else hits him in his head because he’s so angry. He can’t control himself. He goes right back to his own consigliere and he reaches for his glasses. And that’s also a sign of anger, reaching for something on your face, be it a pencil, be it in glasses. [1:04:27] So Sonny Redd is furious that this hit was done without his team doing it. And anyone looking at the video should know that. And again, that’s critical. Now, Joe Messina was critical in this too. He was a hands-on guy. He shouldn’t have been, but he was. You could give him whatever title you want, acting boss, street boss, acting street boss. But he was the one, by his own admission, giving Rusty in jail the information about the hit on Galante. What did Joe Messina do years later In the Three Capitals hit He was there He shouldn’t have been there He’s an acting boss at the time And he actually took part in that hit And he admits to this Now when he was convicted of crimes. [1:05:07] Seven murders to be particular. He made a deal right away and he ran to them. What else did he have to give to the FBI? He gave him a lot of stuff and people need to follow this. He gave up John Gotti for a murder that no one was ever charged with, a guy named Vito Borelli. And Massino said him and Gotti were the ones who pulled off this murder. I believe it was 1975. And that John Gotti was the trigger man. So Joe Massino knew that if you make a deal with the government. You must tell them everything. You cannot leave out one crime. He even went back to a murder he did in 1969 that the government apparently had no idea about. Some guy that he killed back then. I don’t remember the guy’s name. Zumo or somebody. [1:05:48] So the gas pipe case example comes in here. If you leave one thing out of the government or you change one detail, they’ll void your deal. Now, Joe Messino knew that. So in his mind, I must tell the government every single thing and not leave anything out. So he details these hits that they didn’t know about. Vito Borelli with John Gotti being the trigger man. I’ll ask your listeners one question. What details did Joe Massino give defense about the Galante hit? The answer is none because he had none. He went to his grave not having any idea who freaking did this work. Now we talked about the hit. Not only was Galante killed, which was approved, but you had a Bonanno Capo and a banana soldier killed in that hit, which are major violations of the rules. You can’t touch a guy without getting it approved first. So on a hit like this, the conversations were furious. So if Joe Massino did his job, which he did, he grabbed these guys and said, hey, why did you guys kill these guys? What happened? What’s going on? What do I have to report up to Rusty? And Sonny Redd came back as detailed in the book. [1:06:55] Basically telling Joe Massino, we don’t have any freaking idea. We thought Gotti did it. So that’s a really good point for people to know. Had Joe Massino, the guy in charge of this, known one detail about it, he would have done it. Would he have figured Sonny Red? Of course he would have. Any of these guys. He would have fingered Bruno like he set up his own acting street boss, Bassiano. He put him away wearing a wire. But he didn’t because he didn’t know. And the last thing I’ll leave your listeners with, which is what lawyers that we know call exculpatory proof that Bruno and Delicato was innocent, is this. In 1985, you had two cases going on simultaneously in the same courthouse in Brooklyn. Pizza Connection case, which I think a lot of people know about, and the commission case. Bruno was charged with this crime in the commission case. However, in the Pizza Connection case, I believe that the FBI and the prosecutor, I think the guy’s name was Richard Martin, were not about to lie or purge themselves. [1:07:55] On their indictment, they wrote the murder of Galante was conducted by three still unknown males. They did not say the murder was done by Bruno and Delicato and two unknown males. They said it was done by three unknown males, not just in the indictment, but also in their testimony. Now, any good lawyer would have taken that testimony because, again, these FBI guys were on the Banano Squad, the same family that Bruno was in. So they knew everything about anybody in the Bananos. They don’t keep secrets from each other. Brought them into that courtroom and said, what was your testimony down the hallway? And they would have had to say, it’s three unknown males. That’s exculpatory evidence and it works. Now, my question was, what the hell kind of lawyer did Bruno have? Yeah. [1:08:42] Yeah, that’s crazy. And the answer is the lawyer he had was a mob lawyer who basically told them what he can do and what he couldn’t do. And I know so many cases where guys wanted to put on a defense and they couldn’t. And one good reason is because if they were ever to take the stand, they would ask him questions they couldn’t answer. So go away for a year on contempt. But this is all clear proof that Bruno did not do this. Nobody does a hit and goes and celebrates. You don’t even have the time to do it. What about all the time needed to do all the stuff we discussed? Disposing of the clothing Disposing of the gun And I can promise you one last point on this If anybody in any family Ever committed a quadruple shooting With three homicides And they left a getaway car Quote unquote out in the open Quote unquote with a palm print inside of it They’d be dead There’s not even a question I can give you a list of guys Who were killed for what they call botching hits That are not even close to this Leaving a getaway car out in the middle of a street In broad daylight It’s all a lie. And the honest FBI agent said, we’re not going to go on alone with this lie. We’re going to tell what we know. And it’s three unknown males did the shooting. [1:09:48] Interesting. All right. Matt, I really appreciate you coming on. And guys, here it is. It’s 400 and some pages of details that you know about and a lot that you don’t know about, but a real inside nuts and bolts look at being a mob associate and being around mobsters and around mob associates and doing some of those minor things that they all do and make a lot of money at. [1:10:11] And you get a real detailed insight on that from a guy that did it. And you’re also getting the story indirectly from a guy who was involved with the Galante hit. So I really appreciate you coming on the show, Matt. [1:10:24] It was my pleasure. And again, if anybody ever wants to contact us and ask us questions, no problem at all. The best way to get us is by email. I’ll put your email in the show notes. It is made in Long Island at, go ahead. I’m sorry, go ahead. That’s okay. It would be made on Long Island 32 at yahoo.com. And we have a YouTube channel up and Gary, you’re a great guy. And I know from what Hollywood people have told me, this is going to be the biggest Cosa Knows story mystery ever revealed. And I truly hope that this brings an avalanche of people to your site. And it should with all the other great work, because then they need to look at your other great work that you have up there. And I just hope that’s exactly what happens. Thank you, Matt. And I’ll have a link to your YouTube channel also in the show notes and the audio and the video version. I have both out there. So thanks a lot, Matt. My pleasure. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Transcribed - Published: 27 April 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins takes a deep dive with his guest Matt into the assassination of Carmine Galante—one of the most infamous mob hits in American history.  Matt co-authored a book about the men he beleives really killed Carmine Galante titled Made In Long Island.  Matt begins by analyzing the controversial footage captured at the Ravenite Social Club shortly after the murder. While federal investigators interpreted the scene as a celebration by those responsible, Matt challenges that narrative. He breaks down the body language and behavior of key figures, including Bruno Indelicato, suggesting the footage actually reflects anger and exclusion—not guilt.   The episode introduces guest Matt, author of Made on Long Island, who provides an insider’s perspective on the inner workings of organized crime. Matt prefers to not give his last name. Together, they explore how the Galante hit fit into a broader power struggle within the Bonanno crime family and beyond. Matt cowrote this book with Bartley Scarbrough. Matt tells a little-known story about Mob dealings with Fireworks around the 4th of July. One story is about a closed store and how they made up for the closed store and gave a fireworks show on the 5th and most of the kids never knew.   The conversation expands to include major mob figures such as John Gotti and Sonny Red Indelicato, examining the shifting alliances and rivalries that shaped the events leading up to the assassination. Matt shares firsthand stories of mob life, detailing how communication relied on coded language and payphones—tools that kept operations hidden in plain sight.   Gary and Matt dissect the planning behind the hit, revealing a calculated operation involving surveillance, weapon disposal, and carefully constructed alibis. They also address the aftermath, focusing on law enforcement’s inability to definitively link the crime to certain suspects—raising questions about whether individuals like Indelicato were wrongly accused.   A central theme emerges: the gap between official narratives and the complex realities of organized crime. Matt argues that investigative misinterpretations—particularly by federal authorities—led to flawed conclusions and, potentially, unjust prosecutions.   This episode challenges long-held assumptions about the Galante murder, offering listeners a more nuanced view of Mafia politics, loyalty, and betrayal. It’s a detailed reexamination of a landmark mob hit—and a reminder that the truth is often far more complicated than the headlines. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 27 April 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with Charles Bufalino, a relative of notorious Mafia boss Russell Bufalino. What begins as a family history discussion quickly expands into one of the most enduring mysteries in organized crime—the disappearance of Jimmy Hoffa.   Charles recounts how, in 2011, he uncovered information that unexpectedly tied his own family to the Hoffa case. That discovery set him on a path of research that ultimately led to his upcoming book, Revelations of a Mafia Family, the Teamsters, and the Final Resting Place of Jimmy Hoffa, scheduled for release April 28. While he stops short of revealing his conclusions, he makes clear that his findings point toward new insights into Hoffa’s fate.   The conversation provides a detailed look at the Bufalino family’s Sicilian roots and their migration to Pennsylvania’s coal regions. Charles explains how these immigrant communities, bound by kinship and necessity, became intertwined with labor struggles, violence, and early organized crime. The discussion highlights the 1902 anthracite coal strike and the broader environment that allowed criminal networks to gain influence within unions and local industries.   Gary and Charles examine Russell Bufalino’s rise from these beginnings into a respected and highly effective Mafia figure. Known more for his discretion and organizational skill than overt violence, Bufalino developed a reputation as a trusted “utility man” across multiple crime families, including connections in Detroit and Buffalo. His ability to navigate alliances and maintain loyalty made him a quiet but powerful force within the national Mafia structure.   The episode also explores the transition from coal and labor rackets into the trucking industry and the Teamsters Union, a shift that significantly expanded organized crime’s reach and profitability. Charles offers personal reflections on his family, including his relationship with Bill Bufalino, and describes the dual nature of their lives—family men on one side, deeply connected to organized crime on the other.   As the discussion turns back to Jimmy Hoffa, Gary and Charles analyze longstanding theories and newer leads regarding his disappearance. Charles suggests that his forthcoming book will provide a more definitive perspective on Hoffa’s final resting place, adding another layer to a mystery that has persisted for decades.   This episode delivers both historical depth and personal insight, offering listeners a closer look at how family loyalty, organized crime, and American labor history intersect—along with a compelling preview of potential new answers in the Hoffa case. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 20 April 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with Charles Bufalino, a relative of notorious Mafia boss Russell Bufalino. What begins as a family history discussion quickly expands into one of the most enduring mysteries in organized crime—the disappearance of Jimmy Hoffa. Charles recounts how, in 2011, he uncovered information that unexpectedly tied his own family to the Hoffa case. That discovery set him on a path of research that ultimately led to his upcoming book, Revelations of a Mafia Family, the Teamsters, and the Final Resting Place of Jimmy Hoffa, scheduled for release April 28. While he stops short of revealing his conclusions, he makes clear that his findings point toward new insights into Hoffa’s fate. The conversation provides a detailed look at the Bufalino family’s Sicilian roots and their migration to Pennsylvania’s coal regions. Charles explains how these immigrant communities, bound by kinship and necessity, became intertwined with labor struggles, violence, and early organized crime. The discussion highlights the 1902 anthracite coal strike and the broader environment that allowed criminal networks to gain influence within unions and local industries. Gary and Charles examine Russell Bufalino’s rise from these beginnings into a respected and highly effective Mafia figure. Known more for his discretion and organizational skill than overt violence, Bufalino developed a reputation as a trusted “utility man” across multiple crime families, including connections in Detroit and Buffalo. His ability to navigate alliances and maintain loyalty made him a quiet but powerful force within the national Mafia structure. The episode also explores the transition from coal and labor rackets into the trucking industry and the Teamsters Union, a shift that significantly expanded organized crime’s reach and profitability. Charles offers personal reflections on his family, including his relationship with Bill Bufalino, and describes the dual nature of their lives—family men on one side, deeply connected to organized crime on the other. As the discussion turns back to Jimmy Hoffa, Gary and Charles analyze longstanding theories and newer leads regarding his disappearance. Charles suggests that his forthcoming book will provide a more definitive perspective on Hoffa’s final resting place, adding another layer to a mystery that has persisted for decades. This episode delivers both historical depth and personal insight, offering listeners a closer look at how family loyalty, organized crime, and American labor history intersect—along with a compelling preview of potential new answers in the Hoffa case. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. Transcript Charles Bufalino [00:00:00] hey, are you wire tappers out there? Good to be back here in studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins. You know I’m a retired Kansas City, Missouri Police Intelligence unit. Officer and I I worked a mob for a long time and now I’m still studying the mob. And today we have a a descendant of one of the more famous mob names in the United States Russell Buffalino This is Charles Buffalino Welcome Charles. Thank you. And I’m actually not a descendant of Russell, but I’m a an extended family member of his right. Basically I never wanted to write a book about our family until and I still didn’t after, after it occurred in 2011 that I stumbled across three pieces of information that all aligned on the theme of the Hoffa disappearance and its relationship to. Several extended members of my family and there are three things about, there were three little revelations that I experienced, and I don’t really want to go into detail about them now because they’re [00:01:00] all in the book, and frankly, that’s proprietary information for right now until April 28th when the book comes out. But when I got to the third one it really hit me like a shot that. I knew something about the Hoffa disappearance and my family’s relationship to it that nobody was ever really meant to know. And it bothered me just a little bit and I tried to dismiss it and I went away from it for a couple of days and I thought, this is still bothering me. So I’m gonna find out a little bit more about the Hoffa disappearance so I can dismiss this suspicion, right? So I’m searching on the web and I’m pretty sure the source that I found, it doesn’t matter. This is pretty common knowledge. The source that I found though was from the UCLA magazine, 1984 or sometime in that timeframe. And it detailed what the FBI was doing in the [00:02:00] aftermath of Hoffa’s disappearance in 1975. And what they did, the presumption that they made was that Hoffa had been cremated, and that’s a story that you may hear. That’s a story you have heard from. I have Ken Lama. Yeah, he got that from Russ himself. So they took that theory to Bagnas Go’s funeral home in Detroit, which whose clientele had been some of the members on the FBI’s watch list over the years. And Bagnas said, look, we don’t have a crematory. They then went to a place called Central Sanitation. Is that, does that ring any bells for you? Central sanitation was Zy Vitale’s place Peter Vitali. Yeah. Who was a member of the Detroit Partnership, right? He had two such enterprises. This was the second one of them. And when the FBI went there, they interviewed the lawyer for the facility and asked him to show them around. He showed them [00:03:00] around to the trash compactors, the, the cardboard compactors and said, yeah, occasionally, a homeless person or a bum crimes in there to, catch a nap and ends up being more or less as asphyxiated than crushed per se. But, that’s a rare occurrence. And and then they wanted to see the incinerator. And they showed him the incinerator and the FBI said, okay, we want another look at that. We wanna make a date and come back. They set a date to come back and central sanitation burned down. Now the, there’s nothing. Unusual about that, except when I was reading the account I’m running across the name Nick Elli, who was the lawyer for the facility who’s giving the FBI the tour and his name was Ringing Bells. Ringing Bells. And I’m thinking Nick, miss Nikki, is that my cousin? That’s my first cousin Nick from Burbank, [00:04:00] California. Oh really? And how did he get involved in this and. That led me to want to know, okay, who all in the family was in Detroit in 1975, apart from Bill Bino and his three of his close relatives, his siblings who went out there with him that nobody knows their names and Russell and what all was going on out there. And moreover, I needed to understand better again for myself. How these people really related to one another. What was the nature of Bill Binos relationship with Russell? The real nature. It’s commonly understood that they’re cousins. What does that mean? I have cousins that I’ve never met and I think it’s easy for people to presume that was the case. That was not the case, bill. And Russell were. In Bill’s mind and owing to a special relationship they had, they were closer than [00:05:00] brothers due to the fact that Bill’s daughter Bill’s rather Russell’s wife was Bill’s daughter’s godmother. That essentially that made Russell Bills. They had a godfather relationship between him and I. Describe what that means in the book. So Yeah. Which is pretty strong in, in this kind of a family that Godfather relationship’s pretty strong. I may talk about the movie, we’re talking about in Italian family, the Godfather’s pretty strong relationship. Correct. It’s a kind of a, yeah, it’s I get to talk about it in the book because in Montero Sicily, where Bill’s father is from. If I suggest to you that, I want you to be my child’s godfather, it really doesn’t imply anything, any responsibility you have with respect to the child. That means I want us to be as, I want us to be in cahoots business together, brothers. But I’m sure it meant more to Bill than it did to Russell. But, it was a token relationship [00:06:00] probably from Russell’s direction, but they certainly were close and they certainly were involved in teamster business together from very early on. So should I spend a minute and tell you what the family structure was like? Yeah. Explain that Family structure from Sicily on, forward in, in kind of a shortened version, but yeah. Explain that. I’ll do it now. I went ahead and I. Put together some visual aids if you would like to. Yeah. Is this that kind of a show? Can we do multi? Yeah, we can do, yeah, we can do that. Oh, not too many because about half the people that listen to it are audio. I’ll be frustrated. Let’s not do that. Alright. What we’ll do instead is we’ll talk about so I’m sitting in Pitton, Pennsylvania right now in a house that my grandfather and his brother built. My grandfather was Nikola, my. Grand uncle was Salvato and Salvatore’s role in the greater family was he assembled everybody. He came here in 1901 in just [00:07:00] before the great big 1902 anthracite coal strike that sent about 30,000 people out of the coal fields. They just, they gave up after a five month strike and went back to the old country or then went west to the Batum fields. So there was a labor shortage. And at the same time, in Sicily, in Montero, especially where sulfur mining was the key industry they were running into a problem where the United States was breaking into the sulfur market in a big way. It was the fracking process. And eventually the United States and Sicily settled the whole sulfur market thing by treaty. All of that is to say sulfur mines were becoming in trouble, and the last of them would close in the 1970s, the Sicilian mines. So they had this problem where they’re gonna have surface of population, they started to [00:08:00] immigrate and they started to immigrate to the Coalfields, Pennsylvania, where, you know there was this lack of late people to work in the anthracite mines. And Salvatore’s role was to bring them over for probably banks of labor brokers. And once they were here to outfit them with. Food and lodging and all of their material requirements. So he was working for, if he was not himself the Petron system. So that’s my grandfather and his brother. And eventually they took three other Buffalo men into the country. One of them was Russell’s father and the other that was Angelo and the other. Brother of Angelo was kalo. They say Charles, but I call him Kalo in the book to distinguish him from other Charles’s. Kajaro was a black hander. [00:09:00] He was a mafioso. Angelo’s father didn’t live for two years. He was killed in a mine explosion that injured my grand uncle. And Russell grew up under Klo, which is right. Russell was an infant when he arrived. And for several years he bounced in and out of the country back to Sicily and eventually Reland in the country in 1914, living for a time in Buffalo and then back in the Pitton area. So in the Pitton area on my block. So I’m in the kitchen now at the house. On my block was this property, which was a soda factory in a general store. Next door also in the family was a grocer. Up the street was a hotel, and next to that was a bar. And they all belonged to Kalo and they were all run by my members of my family. My grandfather in [00:10:00] particular ran the bar and the hotel while Salvato and his family, they all had very large families. Were servicing the general store and the. So that was their role. And all of the children, there were 20 some children between Nicolo, Kalo, JRO, and a third brother. And they all considered Russell their first cousin, despite the fact that there might not have been a familial relationship between Kalo and the other brothers. They all represented themselves as brothers, four men for about 25 years until the family split apart as Sicilian families only can in very grudging way. But Russell never forgot his relationship to everybody in the family. And at one time or another, every one of those 20 children could reach out to him, rub a lamp, and Russell [00:11:00] would appear and. Do something for them and it was mutual. My father was a professional photographer, probably never charged Russell for a thing. And it was that way with other members of the family that had their crafts of their own. Yeah. So does that help to. Yeah that when the Binos came over, they were like in, in this patron system. And so Russell just kind. Fell right into that. And your one uncle was already in a black hander from the old school Mafioso. So they brought that with him. And then you had this one guy, Russell who probably had the oomph, the wherewithal to then rise on, go into that system, rise onto the top. He was really, was born and bred into that system. Yeah, you could say that. He by, people get confused. They assume based on some facts that he was [00:12:00] raised in Buffalo and came up under Macino. Yeah. And I don’t think that’s the case. There’s plenty of evidence within the family and traditions within the family that say, Russell was a very well known quantity in the city of Pitton at the store next door where everybody sat outside drinking soda on a hot summer day, and all the children would fight to entertain the old men. Russell was there along with Kalo Jro, who was a very day-to-day presence in the family, but. There was a strong relationship between Pitton, Pennsylvania and Buffalo, New York, based on, at the time the Lehigh Valley Railroad. That was the northern terminus of that railroad. So it was an easy trip and there were a lot of labor jobs up there as well with the hydroelectric plant. So people from Buffalo and people from Pitton, a lot of famili familial relationships between them. And at the same time, in 1920, they could see prohibition coming. And Russell was a [00:13:00] mechanic. Where NASCAR comes from? NASCAR is mechanics souping up cars, so they get away from Yeah. The police from the the revenues. Yeah. So I’m almost certain that’s Russell’s first reason for being in Buffalo, working for a guy named John Montana. And John Montana would later testify before the rackets committee. In 1997. So Russell worked for him. It was probably, and again, Mandino’s specialty was importing Canadian whiskey. Yeah, and then there was typical bootlegging they were doing, down here as well as up there. So Russell was probably taking the good stuff down from New York to Pitton area on a regular basis. Pitton is like between Scranton and Wilkes Bar. It’s like a six hour car drive. To Buffalo, and that was his first job. And then he’s back, and so for all of his [00:14:00] life, he was bi-coastal, right? We think of him as in his later years being in New York City, and then two or three days out of the week being in his Kingston home, which is again just down the street here. But he was that way all of his life. He did that between Buffalo and Pittston, and there was a lot of interchange between them by 1922 he’s on the record. He had a car accident on the, on a bridge locally that sent him up for a while. So by 1922, you could more or less consider him again a Pitton property. And he ends up marrying in 1928 into the family through the Chandras. But he was always, a skinny guy. He was, he didn’t really, fit the mold of a classic mobster. He didn’t. He grew up in it. He didn’t show signs of being a real gun toter himself. That makes sense. Yeah, it does. He [00:15:00] probably had a lot of organizational abilities in a certain amount of charisma that would get people to do what he wanted. His specialty was diamonds and jewelry, and so that, that was a specialty. And his other specialty was cars. And again, that continued to be important right through the end of prohibition 1933 December. And. At that key juncture. So kalo, his grant, his uncle was in a tree partite relationship with two other men that formed the real coal country power. They were all coal contractors and gangsters in their own right? Okay. And bootleggers. So they were all in this cahoots relationship, and Russell was in their sphere. Through klo a lot of real heavy mob style violence locally in the 1920s [00:16:00] that was related both to union problems in the coal mines, but also the bootlegging, right? So people were stealing each other’s shipments that needed to be dealt with. Coal miners were going out on Wildcat Strike. There were assassinations related to that big doings in the twenties that probably ended by the middle thirties. The heart of the depression things were so bad for the coal miners, they just assumed worked for substandard wages as go out on strike ’cause they really couldn’t afford to do it. Yeah. But things calmed down pretty much by then, and by that time things were heating up for the three men that they went on background and gave control over to John Chandra. Now, John Chandra is a co contractor in his own right and he’s running the show for Karo and Vbi and Latour, and it’s [00:17:00] under Chandra that Russell really is in a mentorship relationship with Chandra and Chandra, it seems to really have gentled him somewhat. Because the first three men were, they were just killers. They would just, they would take you out rather than deal with you. And Chandra inherited a new generation in the thirties. And his career lasted until 1949. And Russell by then was just the natural to take over. Now from Infancy Forward, he had been in the company of the most dangerous man in the coal fields. People who knew New York gangsters for certain, and was in their company as well. So he knew how to get along and he knew how to be quiet, and he became trusted. That’s probably the thing he was most relied on for. Yeah. Interesting. He was quiet and trusted. That’s, [00:18:00] that is really interesting. People say, and I don’t know how true this is, but they say that, when people have a vacancy and they’re organizational structure, they plug Russell in. And he was not the kind of guy who was gonna try and muscle in your territory. He was just going to keep the balls in the air for you. Yeah. Until the next guy came back and then just hand ’em right back over. He wasn’t a threat. He did seem to be like the utility man of the northeast mobs. He sure was. And when app leaking happened. So I was born in 1957. I was born on the anniversary of his father’s death in the coal mine. Huh? Right away. That’s an Oman. Bad things are coming. Russell and two months later, apple Aiken. Yeah. He was real busy in the late 1950s, early 1960s. He was facing deportation for a very long time, and that’s where. [00:19:00] Bill got a little bit more involved with him because Bill was, an attorney in the family and he was writing letters and doing motions and whatever to keep Russell, you knows, court proceedings to, going on for a long time. Bill eventually wrote a letter to the authorities in Italy that basically said, Hey, don’t take it personally that Russell volunteered to be in the army in 1940. He wasn’t really, trying to get back at you. He was just trying to support his new native country. And and of course there were other people who will tell you there was a suitcase with a million dollars in it that accompanied that letter. Yeah. But Hitler refused to receive Russell. But Russell was apparently ready to get on the plane. Before that refusal came down. Yeah. There’s a whole slew of those cases. I just did a research on that. All the different guys that they tried to deport during those years and the, and their lawyers and [00:20:00] the how they just kept staving it off and staving it off until many times the government just gave up. ’cause it was just like, okay, you have to wonder if they were really serious about it. I think they were just messing with them, but, yeah. But, bills, bill’s teamster career. Where to begin? So Bill and my father both were born in 1918 and a third relative, Jimmy, they were all born in 1918 and they all graduated high school together. Bill was at the University of Scranton for a while before it was called that he was majoring in Divinity and his brother Charles, who was already married into. The greater family suggested you need to be, you need to be a lawyer. We’re going to, we’re gonna get you into law school. And so Bill claimed he had, through his undergraduate, just monitored law classes and approached the dean to say, I’d like to be, I’d like to graduate with a pre-law degree. And [00:21:00] the dean said, sure, why? Sure, why not? And so then Bill went off to, farley Dickinson Law School. Left there just in time to join World War ii, and now he’s assigned in the Detroit area, so it was World War II that brought him to Ellis Air Force Base. Ah, I think it’s just south of Detroit. I’m not sure exactly where it is, but it’s not far. And in that time, I know you know the name Angela Melley. He is a member of the Detroit Partnership. He’s considered the conser of that organization. He has a brother, and the brother has a son who wants to get into business. The brother, I forget his name, comes to Pitton, meets with the Buffalo family. He is from, I think, San Cataldo. Which is a neighboring community in Sicily and they say, look we wanna be in business together. So Bill [00:22:00] now is given the name of Mel’s brother and suggested to contact him, which he does. He says just it was randomly, looking for a deserter in Detroit and it occurred to me to call the brother. So he calls the brother, ends up getting invited to the house. Invited to dinner the next day, proposes to the daughter within three days, and now they’re in the family way. And Bill and Vincent Melly become corners of Belvin Distributing Corporation, I think was the name of it. They were world of to jukebox people. This is where he meets hfa. They’re in the world to jukebox business. Jimmy James, the head of the local 8 95 of the Teamsters, which was called the Jukebox Local ’cause it was a coin and operated local. Starts picketing them. And now Bill and Hoffa are in a lawyerly [00:23:00] way because Jimmy James asked Toya Hoffa into the picture. And Bill presses Hoffa makes him the business agent for the local. Very shortly thereafter, deposes Jimmy James makes Bill the president, and later he is formally elected to the role and now he’s a union president a local president for the next 20 years. And a close associate of Hoffa during the 1960s. So seeing as how I came around so late, I was there to see this. Teamster action because Bill was frequently in Pittston, especially after Hoffa went to Lewisburg Prison, which is 90 minutes down the road. Bill’s sister Mary is my next door neighbor. She’s retired and he comes to visit whenever he goes to C Hoffa, which is every week according to him. To get instructions to bring back to [00:24:00] Fitz. He’s in Pittston. Moreover, he launches a law office in the city of Pittston downstairs on the other side of the house. His father’s old general store because he needs to, he’s not a trial lawyer in Detroit and he wants to join the Detroit bar. And he has to fulfill a. The requirements of a by motion thing to be admitted. Other than that, he’s gotta take the test. He doesn’t want to do that. So he just comes, does a couple probates, this and that for three years and now you’re in. So he does that. So he’s by the time I’m 10, I’m pretty well acquainted with Bill. And Bill is, my father. They’re the close friends. They’re always talking in Mary’s kitchen. I’m sitting there listening, Bill’s running a rator, and they’re laughing about how they sent Bobby Kennedy a parachute because he he said, if I can’t put Hoffa in prison, I’ll jump off the Capitol dome [00:25:00] that I’m a parachute. And he writes about that. RFK writes about that. So it, it was very interesting having him around. Yeah. And he had a brother that would often come with him. To bodyguard him to bodyguard Hoffa, he wore Hoffa’s money belt. His brother Angelo, they called him Yabo, very big guy. And and sometimes he would bring his son Billy boy. William Bino ii, who later had some fame of his own in the nineties. Defending white boy Rick in Detroit. Oh yeah, that’s right. I forgot about that. Yeah. So I knew them all and I knew them all in a family way and I was not quite aware that Bill and Hoffa had a falling out. ’cause then I guess that wasn’t fitting information for a 10-year-old. Yeah. But yeah that’s how I know all of them. And so my real connect to the family is through Bill, his sister Mary. His brother [00:26:00] Yabo. When when Bill retired in 1982 for health reasons, his brother Angelo Yabo returned to Pitton and was my neighbor for the next 10, 12 years. And he was my last connection to the 1920s. And he would tell me things that I had no real frame of reference to understand, about. Running whiskey and whatnot. He didn’t share a lot of stories about that, but every now and then something would escape. And he was just the kind of guy you could tell he’d done a lot of things and I didn’t find out until his funeral. At his funeral an individual came up to me who had traveled to the area from Detroit, probably with William ii. He just for some reason he squared up with me, put his hand out and said Yabo was like a father to me, and then just told me everything. I never wanted to know about what Yabo had done in Detroit. Working for Angelo Melly, [00:27:00] running a bar for him. Being a bartender, occasionally helping people find their checkbook, that kind of thing. So he was obviously a very colorful guy. He was obviously very well respected by the Detroit people. At the same time he wasn’t gonna kill anybody. That was not what he did. But the FBI followed him to Angelo Millie’s farm one day. They had an informant in his car, basically. And it became clear, I finally learned why he and his sister Mary, and other members of his family would go to Florida every year and spend about a month in Florida. They were at Angela Mel’s. Timeshare. Basically he availed Yabo, and this is, somebody at the very top level of the organization down there. So he was not respected. I have to ask about this as Hoffa and Russell Bino and Bill. As the Teamsters Hoffa starts having problems [00:28:00] with Kennedy and there’s this back and forth there. Then was, there, was there, there’s a lot of talk about that that Kennedy and, he, that he got so personal with Hoffa, which he did, there’s some talk about, maybe they had something to do with the murder of JFK Mo. Mainly it falls to, marcelo down in Detroit, I mean down in new Orleans, but yeah. But still, Bino was right in there among that crew. Was there ever much talk about that even after it happened? Yes. There’s a lot of talk about it. When Bill Buf, so I’m trying to Dan Mul Day. Dan Mul Day is a researcher who had worked for many years on the Hoffa disappearance. And he spent a lot of time talking to Bill Bino about that. And when he quizzed Bill about, who, who did this right? Bill answered have the CIA investigate the FBI and then have the [00:29:00] FBI investigate the CIA and then you’ll have the answer. That’s exactly what he said. Interesting. And what he was saying was, yeah, the Bay of Pigs thing, the whole. Pal Kill Castro was something that was known by a lot of people that went missing in 1975, or no. Ended up murdered Johnny Roseli. Yeah. Gian and Gian Kana, I think was 1975 too. Hoffa was really the third person to go missing in 1975 that had information to contribute about that Uhhuh. Interesting. Or at least was believed to. And when you read Bill Alia’s book, he says Russell also knew something about that. So Russell was becoming edgy. That Bill would say something, or rather, no, Hoffa would say something too much about that because Hoffa was, pretty much a loose cannon by that time In terms of speaking.[00:30:00] I interviewed that guy with that Billy Leya book. Did you know him? He was Billy, yeah. Do you know him very well? I did not know Billy, my brother knew Billy when they were both young. Okay. My brother Nick, see Nick’s 12 years older than me and I think so is Billy. Yeah. Alright. I did not, I’ve been in his company once or twice, but he wouldn’t know me. Okay. I was just in curious about that. He seemed like he was a guy that was like, he was always around the binos and during those ta those years, he was like always somewhere around in and around that. It’s a real interesting, contrast between Pittsburgh and Detroit, the Coalfields a more rural area, and then the big city and the auto factories and the teamsters and how these immigrant Sicilians moved into that and moved in on up that, the immigrant way, you get here man, and you start getting better jobs. You get better jobs, you take care of your relatives and you bring them in. And so it’s just, it’s really an interesting complex there. I [00:31:00] forget who I was talking to. I said some of the history’s not good, right? It’s not, it doesn’t, yeah. It’s not real neat. And I said, feel bad sometimes for some of the people. And and the party I was talking to said they would swam here if they could have. When I was right, I was expressing concern about the Padron system and how it was sometimes exploitive. I think Salvatore was pretty fair as Padron went. He wasn’t a gouger, but there was a lot of gouging in that system, and it was effectively dead by 1930. Curiously, by 1930, that’s when the family split apart. That’s when Kelo said, okay. This is not a revenue stream for me anymore. Time to break with the other binos and move on. But the thing about the the Sicilians and the coal mines, they started as really, they started as what’s the word, scabs, right? Yeah. So there was a lot of union trouble in 1902. You got Welsh minors from. [00:32:00] Ireland everywhere. It was all here. It was like Brooklyn and now we’re coming in to fill this void of 30,000 workers. There’s trouble, a lot of trouble. And the people who are the replacement miners, these Sicilians, they already owe a tithe to their pad. Drones. Yeah. They’ve gotta go down they’re in this heated place. Now once you get in and eventually it’s 10 or 12 or 15 more years before unions really started to sign contracts with these particular mines in the northern coal field that were run by 1913, by at least three and probably four black handers ran the contracts, right? So the mafia is to all intents and purpose the mine owner. And they’ve got all of these dependent [00:33:00] people who are, their their agents through the Padron system who are members of the union, and eventually they run for elective positions within the union. And now what you end up with is the company is the union. And it happened at least once, that an insurgent branch of the United Mine workers went in opposition against its own district leadership. The district leadership’s bodyguard was one of those individuals who was at the same time a union organizer. A partner with one of the black candidates. So it didn’t work out well. There was a murder involved. Things went badly. It happened ultimately. It’s interesting that, and now you it started out, as union busters, as scabs, right? And [00:34:00] they move in and take over the unions, and then the teamsters come along as the coal kinda goes down and the truck driving is going up, up and up. And then they just. Move smoothly right into the teamsters Union. Yeah. Where there’s political power and money. That was the seat of political power and a lot of money and the political power the power of the purse, the power of the pension fund and the los, and of course clear out to Las Vegas. And Russell Vino was right in the middle of all that with the guys from Detroit and Chicago. It was just, it just is a natural progress of of activity. Exactly. And where was it? Just a couple of years ago. Was it in Florida? The Longshoreman’s Union threatened to go out. Yeah, I remember something like that. What did DeSantis do? He DeSantis mo mobilized the National Guard. Yeah. So that never happened here, but if you think about it so Bill Buffalino at one time the FBI was advised that. Bill was being groomed [00:35:00] to take over the Teamsters. Not by force. Something, God forbid if Hoffa should end up in prison. Yeah. So that was happening. But I think it was thwarted because Hoffa had a little there was a a situation in his ranks where he, somebody was trying to. Openly deposed him. And it didn’t work out. And he probably did a reorg of his own and that’s when he decided to run fifth for 1965 for the, as his vice president. So that, so he was trying to head off all, he probably could see it coming. Yeah. And it was in those years that he began to lose a little bit of trust in Bill. And that was the source of their breakup eventually because he got hot with Bill in prison. But think about it. So Bill then, as the president of the Teamsters, imagine the power they had at that time to effectively shut down the country. Oh [00:36:00] man. Yeah, it was huge power. It was huge. And what’s interesting is Hoffa, then he starts bringing what we affectionately refer to here in Kansas City as Pecker Woods. He brings in Roy Williams down in Kansas City. He brings in Jackie Presser up in cleveland and Fitz Fitz Simmons. These are all peckerwoods, these are not Italians. Now Italian, some of ’em are behind the string, behind the scenes, pulling some strings. Of course. Yeah, but they’ve got all those guys out front. It’s just it is fascinating to me how these guys have worked. Yeah. Very insidious. And the thing about unionism somebody will tell you that, union membership is down, or union participation is way down from the 1960s. Yeah. There was a union for everything. Yeah. In the fifties and sixties, bill to, and probably it was to boost his resume. I don’t know. The car washers in the Detroit area. There were 200 car washes and they employed up to [00:37:00] 40 to 50 people each. Just doing this job. It was, to organize them. The the tactic was I’m not gonna go after the WR and file and get them to vote on anything. I’m going straight to the owner. He is gonna pay me to their membership fees and he’s gonna pay their dues. That’s how it’s gonna be. And that’s what they did. There were certain, car washers that were not assaulted in this way, and others who were, and they were pretty upset about it. And they took it to the law and there was a grand jury hearing that Bill was invited to attend. But according to Dan Mul day, the judge in the hearing was in their pocket. And yeah, nothing ever came of it. That was mentioned also before Keith f so a bill was on the hot seat for that and the Zer, the er the Zer company to sell their machines entered into an agreement whereby their service people [00:38:00] would be unionized. And therefore, if you went to a bar, now you’re a union agent for local 9 8 9 85. Of the teamsters. You go into a bar and you look at the jukebox and it’s not a er. Yeah. Now we’ve got a big problem. Now there’s a picket outside. I guarantee you the picket was Yaba, Bino Bell’s brother. Gotta be big guy with a mortar board walking back and forth. Unfair, this is a scab shop and now what’s gonna happen? No union truck driver is gonna deliver beer to that bar. Crazy. Yeah. And so that’s right. So that’s how they worked that one out. So that was the extent of Bill’s organizing skills. Interesting. So let’s skip forward here a little bit and we don’t want to give it all away, but we’re talking about the final resting place of Jimmy Hoffa. So how do you go into that? Just, and we want guys to, you gotta get this book guys. It’s the revelations of a mafia family, the temperatures, [00:39:00] and the final resting place of Jimmy Hoffa. The key words here is the final resting place of Jimmy Hoffa. As you might know, Charles, that’s the hook here and Dan Maldia and you probably have a problem, I gotta say. ’cause he’s pretty sure he knows the final resting place. I know he, he, that’s what he, but there’s another guy who also thinks he knows the final resting place as well as me, but he doesn’t know as far as I go. So his theory expands on the central sanitation. Whereby HAA is brought to central sanitation and cremated incinerated, to me that means ashes. And what do you do with ashes post cremation? You can throw ’em to the wind or you can do something extremely appropriate and almost poetic with them. And then move them to a town that is your native [00:40:00] home. That’s what I’m saying. Now, that’s where you come in. Okay. But now, in order to, in order for that to be true I’m willing for that not to be true. In order for that to be true, central sanitation has to be in the mix. And a fellow by the name of, oh my gosh, I’ll never forget his name. Bernstein. Scott Bernstein is a Detroit reporter. I know Scott. Alright, so last year they had this symposium in which he and Novi Toko and a former prosecutor Yeah. All submitted. Did you see that? I didnt see it, but I remember when it happened. I didn’t even know that was happening and I was wrapping up the book at that time, submitting the second to last draft when I became aware of their theory. And their theory solves a problem that I had, which is, skeletal remains. Yeah. And I’m not gonna, I’m not going to break [00:41:00] their I’m not gonna give away their findings, but. The problem with an incinerator is it’s not a crematory and it falls 800 degrees short of being able to render, and even, bones have to be crushed afterwards. Anyway. Yeah, there’s still bones left some their theory pretty much takes care of that, that the bone thing. On top of that, someone else wrote a book Mr. Tubman wrote a book in 2024 that said his parents were, driving in a Detroit suburb on the day Jimmy Hoffa went missing and saw someone being wrestled into a central sanitation truck. And the father noted that truck was not supposed to be there on, on that day. And of course, the property was one of the properties that were suspected of being the place where Hoffman went missing. Again, and that’s not definitive. If there were ashes involved, I think that I have a [00:42:00] first person memoir of the person that did something with the ashes. All right guys. And that’s gonna be in Revelations of a Mafia Family, the Teamsters in the final resting place of Jimmy Hoffa, correct Charles? That’s what it is. And it’s gonna be released on what is it? April? 28th. 28th. 28th. All right. Charles Buffalino I really appreciate you coming on and talking about your book. And guys, you gotta get this book. I’m telling you, it’s I’ve got a advanced copy of it and it’s pretty interesting. It’s readable and it is. Got a lot of great history into it, as you can tell. If you ever wanted to know the immigrant story of Sicilians, this is it, that the, there were huge miners and because they were minors in Sicily, so we had mining activities. I didn’t know about the whole strike breaking thing. That’s interesting. I knew they came down, like here in Missouri, southwest part of Missouri, we have coal mines and a huge group of Sicilians came down here. [00:43:00] And because I was wondering why. Joy IPA outta Chicago was going dove hunting down in Pittsburgh, Kansas. I went down there just to, to look around in this little town, front, neck. All the stores are, have Italian names and so I, there’s a little museum down there. So I stopped in. I said, what’s the deal? And she said, oh. She said, tons of people came over from Southern Italy and Sicily. To work in the coal mines around here, and it’s a big coal mining area. I said, oh, that’s it. That’s it. That is it. That was a safe territory for these Chicago mobsters and Kansas City mobsters to go hunting down there. Okay, so the coal mining is the mining much to know is a big part of the history of the mafia in a way. For sure. And there’s a place in so I thought Pitton had a lot of at, and it does, has a lot of Sicilian, maybe 24% as of the last census. Yeah. Was recently invited. Last year I went to [00:44:00] Clarksburg, Virginia. 40% Italian to this day. Ah, yeah. And they were all minors. And you go there and there’s no there’s no southern speech pattern. It’s all. Ah they’re Pittsburgh. And I said, why? What’s that all about? Oh, he said, no. We are a, we’re a suburb of Pittsburgh. We’re two hours away. Yeah. But the stuff we were producing went right to the mills. Yeah. And so that was the language that we spoke. Oh, we darned. And there were so many of them that they spoke their own language. They didn’t try to blend in with the right Scott, people that had been there from the country and from the hills down in there for a while. I’ll be darned huh. That’s interesting. That is that. And Clarksburg, I’ll tell you that place in the 1950s and sixties, or I’m sorry, in the seventies when the dress factories fell apart, they were burning pittston down. So Piston’s, a lot of old missing buildings. Yeah. But Clarksburg is just like visiting old Pittston. Huh, interesting. [00:45:00] Pitton, Pennsylvania the the seat of power for Russell Bino back in the day, Northwest. I always, you always hear about Northwest Pennsylvania and up into New York was his territory. And again, he was such an interesting guy because like you said, he was like utility man. He was going around to different families or, they, you don’t, they don’t ever talk about this big seat of power that he had in his underboss and his. His capos and that right there in that one geographic area. So it’s really interesting. Different anthracite coal was such a product. So there’s batum is coals everywhere else, but there’s only five counties in the United States that has 80% of anthracite coal. And anthracite coal was the fuel of choice for the industrial revolution. So there was a lot of money here. And so people really can’t understand, just how much wealth there was here. And how a place this small could be somebody’s seat of power, as you say. Yeah. Huh. Interesting. All [00:46:00] right, charles Buffalino I really appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Okay. All right, we’re done here. I’ll redo that When I stumbled over your name again and got a couple other things to redo, but otherwise it’s it gotta be an easy edit. That’s the guy I like when the guy really knows his stuff and he goes right on through it makes my job easier and I will wait and put this out just about the time. I gotta make a note right now. Anytime from the 15th forward is fine. I’m sure, we didn’t, I didn’t reveal anything so sensitive that. Anybody can steal. I’ll be maybe mu Monday the 20th. I got a feeling here either. That’s perfect. 13th? 13th or the 20th? Probably the 20th. I got it written down on the 20th. Okay. That’s awesome. All right, Gary, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you. All right. All right. You made it very easy. Oh good. Oh, and have you have you been in touch with Scott? You gotta go on Scott Show. I did mention to him, Scott, I’m gonna send you a book when it’s time. I, I didn’t wanna reveal everything again. Yeah. I’m just being real careful [00:47:00] for all these months. But yeah, I have, oh yeah, I’m in. But yeah, get on his show. He has, I think he has bigger fo I know he has a bigger follow than me. He kinda really gets into the, what’s going on today, which I never do. And he does, I don’t know, I, here in Kansas City, they get bad. I, and I get word back from ’em that they’re bad at me if I mention their names or there’s any mafia today, so I just seem to not mess with that anymore. Yeah, i’m the same way, I’m not even a fan of this stuff. This is not my thing. Yeah. If it’s the whole, like if Hoffa is here in Pitton I really feel, and my family’s involved in it. It’s like a moral obligation. I’ve got a interesting, yeah, I can see why. That’s the only reason I, that’s the only reason I even bother to research. Yeah. I just started doing some research on a true crime that’s not mafia and it’s kinda it’s like a breath of fresh air. I think I’m getting a little bit burned out in the mafia thing. I like the [00:48:00] stories. I like the capers and stuff that people do. I really love that. And so that’s there are some. Interesting people in this. Yeah. And I’ve known a bunch of them myself. My story’s not interesting, but I, yeah. When I was in college, I worked at a pizza shop. The guy was a bookie. Yeah. And every Friday night we’d be with Butchy, scotchy, Ragy Fingers, and the Greenie, and we’d go to the Skyliner Diner after the track, and it would just be, I’ve been at more dice games. Yeah. They used to rope my head for luck. I was 17. They’re so colorful too. And another thing I’ve learned is, hey. These mob guys, they have so many connections throughout the community Yeah. That most people, they don’t have. When I was a policeman, I didn’t have any idea how many connections I, in hindsight, I realized that how naive we all were, how many connections they really had out in the community, and how those worked and how they I don’t know. So many people found it colorful or they liked buying something that fell off a truck and then. And they like to [00:49:00] gamble and they’re just throughout the entire community and we didn’t know it ’cause I lived in this narrow little police world. It’s the adulation that people just adore this lifestyle. And I don’t know, I think maybe if people had less of a sense they were getting bent over by the government all the time. Yeah. Yeah. There’d be less of that. But everybody’s a secret agent in a way, yes. And I’m, everybody wants to be James Bond. And I’m naive enough to write a book about the Mafia and, but everybody I know, they all know better than me. And I tell some of my classmates, yeah, I wrote a book and they’re like, because they know there’s a whole network up. Yep. All Charles, it was great to meet you. Thank you so much. Great meeting with you. Take care. Bye bye. Bye-bye.

Transcribed - Published: 20 April 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, I sit down with Salt Lake City author Flats to discuss his book, Ice Pick Willie: The Life and Times of Israel Alderman. We take a deep dive into the shadowy world of Israel “Icepick Willie” Alderman—a largely forgotten but deeply embedded figure in early 20th-century organized crime. Willie’s criminal career traces back to Prohibition-era New York, where he began as a jewelry thief before evolving into something far more lethal. His nickname came from his preferred weapon: an ordinary household ice pick. In the 1920s, it was common, inconspicuous, and devastatingly effective. Flats explains how Willie’s method allowed him to carry out murders quietly and efficiently, often avoiding the attention that accompanied more public gangland shootings. We follow Willie’s movements from New York to Minneapolis and eventually into the orbit of Chicago’s violent underworld. Along the way, he intersected with major figures of organized crime, including Meyer Lansky, Charles Luciano, and Bugs Moran. Flats outlines the shifting alliances and rivalries that defined the era, placing Willie within the broader context of gang wars that culminated in events like the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre. The conversation also examines Willie’s transition from violent enforcer to gambling operative as organized crime evolved and shifted westward. As Las Vegas rose with legalized gambling, figures like Willie adapted—moving from street-level brutality to more structured rackets under established mob leadership. Despite brushing against major historical events and powerful crime bosses, Icepick Willie faded into relative obscurity. Flats and I explore why certain gangsters become legends while others—equally dangerous and influential—slip into the margins of history. We also touch on Willie’s odd cultural afterlife, including regional pop-culture references that keep his name alive in unexpected ways. This episode provides both a character study of a cold and calculated killer and a broader examination of how organized crime adapted from Prohibition chaos to structured syndicates. It’s a detailed look at a man who operated in the shadows—lethal, efficient, and nearly forgotten. Flats’ book, Ice Pick Willie: The Life and Times of Israel Alderman, is available now on Amazon. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. Transcript [0:00] Hey, welcome all you wiretappers. Good to be back here in the studio of Gangland [0:03] Wire. This is Gary Jenkins. As most of you, I’m a retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective turned podcaster and documentary filmmaker. I got a couple of documentary films you can rent on Amazon if you choose. I’ll have links in the show notes. Or just go to Amazon and search my name and you’ll find my stuff. But anyhow, today I have a friend of mine from Salt Lake City called Flats. And he’s just Flats, all right? And he’s written a book about a man named Icepick Willie. Now, Icepick Willie has got a great, cool nickname. I’m surprised that he didn’t last through history a little better because people had an easy-to-remembering cool nickname. His real name is Israel Alderman. Now, Flats has been researching him. He got a hold of me because I did a show on David Berman, who ended up in Las Vegas. He was a Jewish gambler from Minneapolis. And ice pick ends up out there connected to him somehow. And I didn’t really stumble. I stumbled a little bit across that, but I couldn’t remember what it was. But anyhow, welcome flats. [1:09] Glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me. All right. Go ahead. I’m sorry. I’m always open for any chance to talk about Ice Pick Willie, one of my favorite people. And if you guys out there know anything about Ice Pick Willie, get a hold of me and I’ll connect you up with Flats. And I’ll have his Gmail in the show notes. But either that or get a hold of me pretty easy. Any rumors or stories, lies, anything about him. [1:38] But in the meantime, in a couple of weeks, actually, by the time this podcast is out, that book’s going to be up on Amazon. But you can always go back. You can always pull those down and add more information in and then put them back up if you want. So that’s a good way to go. Nicknames are interesting. I once talked about doing a show on nicknames and how people got them, and I just never got around to it. And many times you can see how people get their nicknames. Al Capone, Scarface Al. He’s got the big scar on his face, right? Here’s one. One of Icepick’s Willie’s contemporaries, a guy named Albert, was it Tannenbaum? Yeah, Tannenbaum. And he was called Tick Tock. And I looked that up because, like I said, he was a contemporary of Icepick Willie’s. And he got the name Tick Tock because somebody said you move all the time. You’re always like a watch. You’re Tick Tocking all the time. And, of course, there’s Anthony Accardo, who they called Joe Batters. And his guys gave him that. They used to call him Joe. And that was because he beat up somebody with a baseball bat so bad that Al Capone said, you’re a real Joe batters. But he also, many times the press will give people these nicknames. And they gave Anthony Accardo the nickname of the big tuna because he was big. And they had a picture of him with a huge big tuna he had caught. There’s Joe Bananas Bonnano. That speaks for itself, Joe Bananas. And I think the press gave him that. First question, Flats, you know how Icepick Willie got his nickname? The nickname came… [3:06] From when he was in Minneapolis, he apparently picked it up. And this is something which he admitted to later on in his life. He claimed to have taken about 11, 12 victims out by using an ice pick in the ear. [3:27] And ice picks were actually really common back in the 20s everywhere. People had them. Everyone had them in their homes. and they were a real popular tool among Murder Incorporated members. It’s a handy thing, small, quiet kind of a tool. [3:49] Normally, a knife-pick killing was something that took maybe three or four people, not counting the victim. They’d crowd around him and grab his arms, whatever, and then somebody’d do him, they’d haul him off. Uh, Willie had managed to turn this into a one man operation. He’d take his victim. [4:11] He’d be up at the bar with a drinking buddy, get this guy really liquored up, and he’d slip his ice pick out of his jacket. Boom, real quick in the air, ice pick’s gone, the guy’s down on the bar. Not much blood because it’s an ice pick. Forensics wasn’t real hot back in the 20s, so a lot of times they would diagnose this as a brain aneurysm. But the guy would slump over the bar, drunk, dead drunk, and then they’d just haul him off. The story is they’d take him in the back room, he’d go down the coal chute, which everybody had back then, out into a truck, they’d haul off the body. The people that went down the coal chute, they were all pretty much forgotten. But Willie, he seemed to have stuck around. Now, in Minneapolis, apparently he’s still a real popular figure. Memorable, which is funny because Minneapolis, for all my research, is the place there is the least documented evidence about. [5:19] But that seems to be that and Las Vegas are where he’s best known. There’s even a company in Minneapolis that does a nail polish they named Ice Rick Willie. It’s a popular culture thing there. Yeah. Now, did he start out in New York with Erlansky? He started out in New York. He grew up on the Lower East Side. Like so many people, Benny Siegel and Meyer, everybody came from there. Early on, and back by the 20s, Meyer had hooked up with Charlie Luciano, and most of the serious Jewish gangsters came under Meyer’s umbrella, so to speak. And this Willie supposedly, according to another author, this is when Willie hooked up with Meyer, was early on during Prohibition. But Willie didn’t start out as a bootlegger. He started out with a bunch of jewelry store robbers, but they were pretty notorious at him. God, his first record of him was, oh, when was it? About 1925. [6:34] He got a charge for robbery. Not a lot of details on it. The charge was dismissed, and it seems to be a pretty common thing throughout his entire life as far as resolution of his legal issue. But anyway, then right after Christmas, that’s in year 25, he was going by Izzy Alderman back then. Israel, Izzy was his nickname. He didn’t get into Willie till later, but he went into with a couple other guys and they hit a jewelry store for about $75,000 worth of jewelry. Oh, wow. That’s a pretty good chunk of change back then. That’s a score, man. That is a real score back then. Oh, yeah. And then a few months later, along with a couple other people, he hit another jewelry store in the Bronx, William Sims Robbery. This one was pretty well publicized. And they go in, they take the, everybody there, the owner, employees, customers, tie them up, they’re in the back room, they grab trays full of gems, usually diamonds, they’re out the door, never even touched the cash register. So they got about a hundred grand on that. Got away. Next morning. [7:59] Another jeweler, Sam Candle, as he was opening up his shop to let a friend in, some guys come pushing into the door. Izzy’s with them again. Once more, the same M.O., everybody’s in the back room tied up. Another hundred grand or so worth the gems. So they’re doing pretty good by now. Wow, yeah. I assume that whenever they fenced them, did you find out much about how they fenced them? Did the Italians get a piece of the action? Did they make him pay up, or did Meyer Lansky get a piece of that? I’m sure that Meyer was somehow connected to this. He got a piece of everything that was going on in the Jewish world. And originally, at that point in time, there was not a lot of interaction between the Italian mobsters and the Jewish mobsters. They had their own little thing that they kept to themselves. They felt safer that way. They could trust everybody. It was actually pretty much Meyer and Charlie Luciano that moved things past that point. I see. But up till then, everything was coming under Meyer’s thing. So they were doing pretty good until they did a robbery. [9:19] There was a jeweler, Aaron Roddark. Now, about 18 months earlier, he’d had an attempted robbery where he had shot and killed one of the robbers as they were running out of the store. So he got a bunch of publicity called the Fighting Jewelers in the press, a popular guy. About a year and a half later, another crew walks in. This is Izzy’s crew. [9:50] When they come in, same thing, the fighting jeweler, he goes for his gun. Doesn’t work out so well this time. This time, he’s shot and killed. But they didn’t get any jewels. They take off again. [10:05] But now they’re hot. This is big news. Fighting jewelers murdered. Big publicity, big public outcry. And cops are looking for them hot and heavy by now. [10:17] And by now, so a few weeks, couple weeks after the fighting jewelers murdered, one of Izzy’s crew was picked up, coming out of a doctor’s office, for a gunshot wound, where he’d been treated. Cots get word of this, they pick him up, and he immediately starts confessing to all the jewelry store robbers, giving up partners. They pick up a couple more people pretty soon everybody is just singing like canary it’s like the mormon tavern fire or something so the cops are looking for everybody they haven’t got they pick up almost everybody the two people are missing from the last robbery where the guy was murdered is Izzy Alderman and one of the other guys Robert Byrd. [11:09] So Izzy and Robert they know they’re hot They’ve got warrants out. They know the police are looking. They’ve got this information because they’re connected to whoever. So they leave town. They’re on their way to Chicago. They’re going to go there to hide out, take care of business for a couple reasons. One is Robert Berg has brother, Ollie, who is tied in with the Northside Bugs Moran gang in Chicago. Ago, Holly is also a jewelry driver and right about the time, right before. [11:47] His brother, Robert, gets to Chicago. Ollie and a couple guys are on an Illinois Central commuter train. They robbed three jewelry salesmen while they’re on the train of their jewels, managed to get off the train and get away. They got picked up about 12 hours later, though. So now his brother, Ollie, is in prison again, of course. But Robert is connected. They have connections to the Northside gang. Through the brother, through Ollie. And this is a safe place for them to go, relatively safe. At that point in time, Chicago’s got the beer wars going on, and so it wasn’t a real safe place to be. But they had out there, they’re there maybe a week or so. The cops raid a hotel room, they pick up Robert Burke. They also find a bunch of jewelry, which they trace back to the New York robbery. So they know this is all tied together now. They don’t get Willie. Izzy is still at that point. So Robert Berg, now he’s back to New York going to prison too. Izzy needs a new partner. Berg had a guy he was running around with, Red McLaughlin. [13:06] Red’s partner’s in jail, and Izzy’s partner’s in jail, so they came up a little bit. But now Red already at this point the cops are looking for him hot and heavy in Chicago a little while before they found him. [13:24] The cops saw him on the side of the road, Red was on the running board of the car, reaching through the window, choking the driver. The driver turned out to be, of course, a jewelry salesman with the jewelry in the car. Red explained to the cop that his friend was just having some kind of a fit, and he was trying to help him. The cop wasn’t going for it, and so Red was off to jail. He managed to get bailed out. And as soon as he’s out, he just goes off on all kinds of things. By now, the cops are looking for him for being involved in some kidnappings and bootlegging and murders. One newspaper article called him the man of a hundred brides. He’s like Lon Chaney of the criminal world or something. So now the cops are really hot after Red. He’s junk bail. He’s doing all this other stuff. There they raid a hotel, the Webster Hotel in Chicago. They’ve got a tip. That’s where they’re going to find him. Yeah. They don’t find Red, but they find his buddy in there. They find him, and he’s got a suitcase full of guns. [14:38] But no, he knows this is turned out to be actually Izzy Alderman, but he knows the cops are looking for Izzy Alderman. So he tells the cops his name’s Robert Lewis. They don’t know any better. Things are different back then. Yeah. He also told them that he was a bootlegger from Detroit. And that, I guess, would explain having a suitcase full of guns. And when they get ready to arrest him, he tells the cops they’re going to be wasting their time because he says he has some high connections in the illegal liquor business in town here. And apparently he was right because all of his charges were dismissed as soon as they haul him in once again. Back then, it seemed in Chicago, because of Al Capone, Bugs Moran. [15:30] New York with Meyer and Charlie, Prohibition contributed to it a lot. Corruption was just fantastic. So you could buy your people’s way out of everything, which was nice if that’s what you were doing. Yeah so anyway Robert Bird disappears and now Willie all of his partners all of his connections everybody’s locked up missing dead something he’s out of work again but he’s in Chicago since 1927 they’re in the middle of the beer wars he’s a starker a tough muscle man starker’s Jewish term so he hooks up right away They were Bugs Moran on the North side. Bugs is more, the Bugs Moran gang, they were people like Frank Foster, Ed Newberry. He had other Jewish gangsters working with him at the time. So Lizzie fit in pretty good. And it isn’t long at all, maybe a month later, he gets cops pull over a car. They find Frank Foster and Izzy Alderman in there. And they’ve got guns, of course. And once again, the charges just disappear. Everybody goes on their way. [16:51] So things are rolling along. The beer wars are going good. And now we get into the taxi cab wars. because in Chicago back then, that’s how you settled everything. You had a war. There were two cab companies mostly going on in Chicago at the time, and they were shooting up each other’s cab offices and throwing bombs and shooting up cabs. So the Yellow Cab Company puts out a hefty reward for the people involved, which leads to another made by the cops on this time. It was a Broadway apartment where there were supposed to be people involved in all of this. [17:30] Among the people they find, first off, Frank Foster, who at the time was a high-ranking member of Bugs Moran’s group on the north side. They also find another bunch of people, one of them named Harry Davidson. This was, again, Izzy Alderman, but he knew that the cops were looking for Izzy Alderman, and they were looking for Robert Lewis by then. So that was Harry Davidson, and that worked out. And, of course, everybody gets charged with concealed weapons, and then the charges are dropped, and catch and release. Yeah, catch and release Chicago. It was really interesting. So shortly after this, of course, this is 1929 in Chicago, and it’s Valentine’s Day. We all know what happened there. Now this brought major heat, major attention from everyone nationwide, the student. [18:30] And surprisingly, later in life, like I said, he used to almost brag about his activity as he got older. One of the things he would tell people is that he missed the St. Valentine’s Day massacre because he was in the bathroom. Yeah, I was going to say, he missed that. The bathroom wasn’t in SMT partage, if that was the case. They had an outhouse, Flats. They had an outhouse out back. That’s true. Yeah, he was close enough to do that activity. Yeah. He was just caught up in the middle of all the major things happening throughout Gangland at that point in time. Really? How does he end up in Minneapolis? It’s reasonably close to Chicago, and there are some connections. It is. [19:19] Before he ends up back in Minneapolis, first he ends up back in New York. What happens now in New York, they’ve got their own problems going on between the two gangs back then. Yeah, they had the Castle Marie’s War during that time, I believe, or sometime around then. It broke out. Actually, it happens right after he gets shot. But as he gets picked up, there’d been a shooting that they had. First, they had the Easter Massacre, where a few people get shot up. And then the Fox Lake Massacre. Like I said, everything in Chicago was wars or massacres. And by the time the Fox Lake massacre happened, it was after the Valentine’s Day thing. Izzy Alderman, Frank Foster, Ted Newberry, and probably at least 6, 8, 10 other people affected. They left the Northside gang, and they moved south and joined up with El Capote. [20:21] Obviously, they could see where everything’s going. I mean, everyone at the outside is winning. But the authorities were aware of it. So after the Easter massacre and the Fox Lake massacre, now the cops know there’s going to be all kinds of retaliation. Fox Lake thing, Al Capone’s people got shot up. So cops are out on the street looking for people. They pull over a car racing down the street. They find Frank Foster, Izzy Alderman again, out with their guns. Once again, they get hauled in, arrested, catching release. Shortly after this, now we get a reporter, Jake Lingle. Jake Lingle, he was crooked. He was on the take. He was one of these $65 a week reporters who vacations in Hawaii and has an apartment on Lake George Drive, that kind of thing. He even said he had a fancy piece of gold jewelry that was a gift from Al Capone. Anyway, he gets into trouble with people there. He gets killed. [21:32] Now, everybody knows you can’t. The people you don’t kill are cops and newsmen. Jake Lengel gets killed, and now, once again, it’s like St. Valentine’s Day all over again. Big public outcry. Cops are hot and heavy. They know somehow Izzy Alderman is somehow tied into this. Frank Foster’s tied into it. So they’re hunting them. And a few months later, a cop spots Izzy. He’s in a restaurant with another guy, Joe Condi. They’re eating dinner. Cop recognized Izzy because he was really, which is surprising, he was really well known then to the cops, to the press, to other gangsters. [22:19] And yet today, who was Izzy Aldenman? Who was Ice-Pick Willie? So time goes by. But the cop spots him, recognizes him, grabs, snatters him up, and arrests him. As soon as they come out of the restaurant, runs him in for questioning for the Lingle murder. They get him in. There’s nothing they can tie him to the Lingle case with. So they charge him with vagrants. This is a new deal, a new tool that prosecutors are using in Chicago. Yeah. We know you’re a gangster. We can’t prove anything, so we’re going to arrest you for vagrancy because you have no physical means of support. You don’t have a job. [23:07] When Izzy was arrested at this time, he had about $650 in his pocket. This is worth like over 12 grand today so yeah the economy’s good when vagrants are carrying that kind of money obviously but they get arrested charged with first they’re brought in before a judge one judge mccordy he says there’s nothing to hold them on the lingual thing so they’re free to go the minute they walk out of the court building they get arrested charged with vacancy taken in front of another judge, Judge Lyle. Now, Judge Lyle, he’s known, he’s a holy terror when it comes to gangsters. He’s just after them. And even he admits the vagrancy thing, I’m not sure it’s really valid, but we’re going to charge you anyway. First thing is, he says, is I want a lawyer. So the judge tells the court reporter, the defendant has no comment at this time. And then in what’s probably the shortest trial in history, Izzy and his buddy are found guilty. [24:21] And shipped away to jail in a matter of like 10 minutes or something. How long was the sentence for? How long was the sentence for? They were sentenced to six months in jail. Okay. Surveillance. Okay. So now their lawyer comes back, goes back to the first judge, McGordy, who had released them on the Lingle chart. [24:49] And he convinced her, I don’t know, for whatever reason, Judge McGurdy says, no, I have jurisdiction in this case because they were brought before me first. And so he issues a bond and sets them free again. As soon as they walk out of the courthouse, they’re re-arrested again for vagrancy. At this point, their lawyer, the lawyer’s upset. And he’s telling, he tells the cops, that’s it. If you’re going to take them in on this bullshit again, you got to take me too. So they all went down to the station, the lawyer with them, charged with vagrancy again, locked up. Judge Lyle, like I say, Judge Lyle was not a friend of these people. He missed their fail at $10,000 on the vagrancy charge. And then he immediately changed it to $20,000 a piece because he was afraid they might make the $10,000 bail. These vagrants, mind you. So they’re backed off in jail. [25:56] Late that night, the lawyer, who’s also out of jail at this point, finds another judge who is either totally unaware of this case or he’s very aware of it. Either way, this judge says, oh, no, that’s way too much bail for vagrancy. The bail should be $100 for that. And as he says, they’re bailing at $100. They’re out again. Boom. So the next day, they go to court facing the, vagrancy charge in front of Judge Lyle. Judge Lyle immediately says, no, your bond was issued falsely, charges him with another $20,000 bail, has him re-arrested. Oh, my God. So they get their bond reduced to $10,000. They bail out of jail. They go to court. [26:51] Finally, on the vagrancy charges, maybe a month later. They’ve been dealing with this now for almost two months. Vagrancy charge. First day of the actual vagrancy trial, Izzy goes in, they arrest him for the burglaries back in New York, charging with hoax. So now they’re ignoring the vagrancy charge. They’ve got him locked up. They’re holding him for extradition to New York. He fights this still. He holds out finally in December, just a couple days before Christmas. He ends up back in New York to face the vagrants. He’s charged with the robberies and the murder of the fighting jeweler. Finally, everything gets dropped back in New York. You know, this is Meyer and Charlie’s area. All the charges are dropped. He’s free and clear again. He’s back home, so he sticks around. and it’s just in time because, as you mentioned, the Castle Marie’s war breaks out like a month later. [27:57] There’s no actual evidence, a lot of evidence of his involvement, but coincidentally, he is charged with murder about a month after the war breaks out. And, of course, his charges drop again, too, like they are. And then as the war goes on, first, Charlie Luciano, he swapped, changed his sides, they whacked Joe the boss, and then they set up Maranzano. [28:27] And Salvador Marenzano gets shot and killed in a restaurant, supposedly by a hit squad of Jewish gangsters that Meyer organized, because Meyer and Charlie were pretty close at this point in time. It isn’t sure who all was involved in that. Benny Siegel was supposed to be one of the shooters. And there’s no mention of Izzy being involved in it, but once again, just coincidentally, he left for France a couple of weeks after the shooting, where he stays until the end of the year when they first held at a couple of conferences. The one where Charlie Luciano organized pretty much the Italian crime family And then a couple months later, Meyer had one where he organized Jewish people, except Meyer had more of a national thing, whereas Charlie’s was more of the New York Five family kind of thing. [29:37] So anyway, at this time, I guess moving along here, Dave Berman, as you’re familiar with, being a Jewish mobster out of the Midwest, he’d come under Meyer’s umbrella. And then in 1927, he gets called to New York. He ends up in New York. At the time, Meyer, the Bugs and Meyer gang, especially being Budgie Siegel and Meyer Lansky, had this thing going where they were kidnapping rival bootleggers. Bootlegging was big business. Meyer was taking control of all of that. It was coming, especially coming in from Canada, which is where the Midwest came in, coming in by boatloads from Canada. We were drinking Canada Dry. Yeah, good one. So Dave Berman, he ends up in New York. Another bootlegger named Abe Sharlin gets kidnapped. [30:45] And the family agrees to pay like a $50,000 ransom to get him back. So when the two guys show up to collect the ransom, instead of a pile of money, there’s a pile of cops waiting for him. Immediately, a shootout breaks out. The one guy jumps out of the car, pulls out his gun, big shootout, people running everywhere. One guy shot and killed. The other guy, he surrenders. That’s Dave Berman. So Dave Berman, it’s, doing this for Meyer, but the cops don’t know that for sure. But they arrest him. He’s off to Sing for seven years for kidnapping. [31:27] Actually, back then, Sing, the prison in Ossining, New York, sat on the river, and so most people sent there, prisoners were shipped up there by boat. That’s where the term sent up the river. I didn’t realize that. Cool. So he does his time while he’s locked up there there’s not a lot of Willie doesn’t show up a lot but there is one specific mention of him, B Kittle he was a nightclub singer back in the early 30s young girl goes to New York chasing her dream ends up working at the nightclub that just happens to be to hang out for the mobsters. She doesn’t know this, but… And actually, she ends up marrying Mo Sedway later on. And Mo Sedway was one of Meyer Lansky’s close people, Benny’s people. She does remark, though, that she remembers there were two guys she’d always see sitting over at a table in the corner drinking together. One of them, she said, was Izzy Alderman, who she said was a lieutenant for Moe Sedway, and the other was Fat Irish Green. [32:51] Fat Irish Green was Benny’s bodyguard, hang-around-everywhere kind of guy. We always see the same people popping up all through this thing. Izzy’s plugged into this bunch. So anyway, we jump ahead a couple years. Dave Berman gets out of prison. Gets out of prison immediately. Meets up with Mo Sedway and Meyer and Charlie, everybody there. Dave’s been a stand-up guy. He kept his mouth shut about everything. He took his beef. He was good about it. But the story goes, they offer him a million dollars in cash for his loyalty. Fire took the judge. More employers should be like him. [33:42] Dave said he didn’t want the money. He wanted to be, he wanted control of gambling in Minneapolis. His mother lived there. His brother, Chickie, was there running small-time gambling thing. That’s where he wanted to go. And they say, okie-dokie, which I think is a good example of the influence, shall we say, that the East Coast group had over the rest of the country. They can just, I’ll give you this city in the Midwest. But before A.V. heads there, interestingly enough, there’s a couple of treasury bond robberies, big treasury bond robberies that happened in New York. They need total like over $2 million. [34:31] Big bucks and the FBI tracks down some of the bonds to a Minneapolis gangster, so when they arrest him along with him the Minneapolis gangster his name was Royce Boris Royce not that it’s a big deal but with him they pick up Davey Berman Davey the Jew is what he was called at that time they weren’t quite as politically correct, They got Dave Berman, they got Moe Subway, and there was a guy that the newspapers called, one account called him Jacob Irish Greenberg, and another one called him Jack Green Greenberg. So this would have been Fat Irish Green, it was Jacob Greenberg. [35:21] Once again, by the time it was done, acquittals all the way around. Wonderful things for him. Now Davey Berman pays off to Minneapolis to join his brother in the gambling thing. He gets there. Brother Chickie was running gambling initially. Isidore, or Kid Khan, was in charge. Isidore Bloomfield was in charge of the Minneapolis thing. And his brother, Yiddy Bloom. Yeah. But, of course, Davey’s here now. Since Kid Khan and his bunch were also Jewish popsters, that means they are linked to Meyer. And when Meyer says, okay, here’s Davey, now that’s how it goes. Davey immediately starts expanding the gambling joints into horse booking and race wire and craft games and everything. And he’s a good businessman. He’s sharp. And he’s learned a lot, apparently, from Meyer because he knows how to keep his name and people out of the name. Back then in Minneapolis, they had a deal. It was called the O’Connor Existence. [36:41] For the it was a deal that the local police had with gangster you could come to our town, and we won’t bother you we’ll leave you alone three conditions you check in with us when you get here so we know you’re here you of course make various payments to the necessary police and city officials and it was an orphan’s fund to the widows and orphans fund the police, and you promised that you will not commit any crimes major crimes while you’re in twin cities minneapolis st paul and if they’d agree to that they could stay there safely no matter who was looking for them so this also made it kind of more attractive i think for dave burman and people like him because obviously all you got to do is pay people off you’re good to go yeah kind of like the hot springs of the north, huh? Oh, yeah. So, once again, with this kind of ability, you don’t find a lot of mention of. [37:52] Dave Berman or his crew, especially in Minneapolis, and some of the police records have been lost there over the years. So that made it a little harder, too, to track things down. There are a couple of interesting things. For example, now, part of the Berman crew, one of them especially was Slippy Sherr, a guy named Phillip Sherr. They went by Slippy. He was really an interesting sort of guy. He was definitely a violent person he was constantly charged with assaults and murders and of course the charges were always dropped there was one occasion he was out with some friends in a bar they end up in an argument with the bar owner turns into a fight the bar owner goes outside flags down a motorcycle cop who’s going by the motorcycle cop goes back in with the bar owner and they proceed to get in a fist fight with Flippy and his friends, they get lumped up pretty good. Later, when they go to court. [39:01] The officer made a remark in court about, he said, all in all, it was pretty fair fight all the way around. And he said, for the most part, they’re pretty nice guys when they’re not drinking. Yeah. So aren’t we all? He was that kind of the guy Flippi was bollocked, Oh, another example of that. Willie ends up, by the time he hits Minneapolis, he’s become Willie Alden. He’s given up the Izzy thing, trying to put that behind him. Now, his focus is gambling. He’s like Dave Berman. It’s a muscle, maybe, behind Dave Berman. But he’s mellowed out a lot, and you don’t hear a lot about him. In one incident, though, they were golfers of all things. They loved golfing. And this is the 30s. So, of course, they can only golf at the Jewish golf course. Jewish people weren’t allowed at the regular country club. They’re out golfing. Flippy, sure, he would always join them. We wanted to force them. They didn’t deal with golf well. They’d get upset easily. I know the feeling. I know. [40:19] So on one occasion, Flippi slices a ball over into a neighboring farmer’s field. There’s an 18-year-old kid over there farming his potato crop. And Flippi, being argumentative, is a problem breaks out over the ball, him and this kid. Pretty soon, Flippi’s over there in the field. First, he starts wailing on the kid with his fist. And then he starts beating on him with his golf club until he knocks him out. Oh, man. This is like a $30,000 golf club. Game for flippy by the time it’s over and probably got extra strokes on that hole while he was there. [41:03] That the berman crew ran in minneapolis was 613 hennepin this was they were regularly it seemed like it was an annual thing it’s probably a deal they hadn’t once a year the cops would hit 613 Hennepin, they’d raid it, they’d charge him with gambling, whatever, and they’d pay their fine, let it go. But like clockwork, if you check the newspapers, once a year, it’s 13 Hennepin. So finally, last time, 1940, they go in, and now their cops are hyped. Big, great, they ain’t got all these cops, they’re ready to get the door down, charge in. To get there, Doors are wide open. Cop belt all run in. There’s still hot coffee on the stove. There’s a chalkboard full of all the race results. Everything but people. The places. There’s nobody in the place. This upset him made more of an embarrassment, I think, than anything for the police. He finally got beat out on that one. [42:09] That was 613 Hennepin. Was that the address and the name of the spot, 613 Hennepin? Or was that Hennepin’s like a common name up in Minneapolis? It was called the TMA Club. Okay, and the address was 613 Hennepin. Yeah, it actually had a couple of different names, But the address, no matter what club was at that address, whatever they called, it was the same thing. Yeah, I got you. They just sold. Now, about this time, this is late 1930s, of course, I’m sure you’re familiar with the Silver Church thing, the support group, so to speak, in the States, right? Yeah, yeah. And Judge Perlman from New York got a hold of Meyer Lansky. Yeah. See if he could offer assistance. And among the people that Meyer called was Dave Berman, of course, in Minneapolis. And Dave said, sure, I’d be glad to help. And Willie would be glad to help, too. Dave was a little nervous about Willie’s assistance because they really didn’t want anybody killed. And he wasn’t sure about that with Willie. But as it turns out, they said that Silver Shirts held their meeting at the Elks Club in town. and J.B. Berman showed up with some friends and baseball bats. [43:32] It took him about 10 minutes to clear the place out. A couple more go-rounds like this and the silver shirts, all the… [43:42] Nazi groups, neo-Nazis, whatever, they changed their mind about having these kind of meetings there. Like in New York, when they had Nuremeyer brought his people in, they were not extremely friendly to the Nazis, which is understandable. So the Silver Shirts complained to the mayor, Mayor LaGuardia, demanding protection for their rallies and their marches. And the mayor is obligated by law to protect them, to provide them with the support. And he did. He rounded up all of the black and Jewish officers he could find and assigned them to that duty. His mother was Jewish. Yeah, crazy times. It’s hard to believe. If you don’t read it in history yourself, you wouldn’t know it. It’s really something that’s been a gift under the rug. We had those Nazi sympathizers right up to World War II. It was crazy. Oh, it was amazing. People like Charles Lindbergh, Henry Ford, who wrote The International Jew. At one time, if you bought a new Ford, you’d get a free copy of that book. [44:57] I read that somewhere, The International Jew, that Jewish conspiracy that’s supposed to take over the world and have all the money and everything. Yeah, that’s interesting. That’s ridiculous. They just want to take over gambling. It’s obvious. Yeah, really. Then they wanted to move all these guys you mentioned, Mo Sedway and Mayor Lansky, of course, and Buggy Siegel. They all end up out in Las Vegas. They take it all to Las Vegas, don’t they? Yeah, and like I said, right from the very beginning, you’ll see the same name over and over. Benny Siegel, Gus Greenbaum, Joe Stacker. They had an amazing bunch. And if you look at it, most of them died in bed. Yeah. [45:43] It was a whole different, probably, mindset than you’d see with the Italian gangsters at that time. These are people who managed to stay out of jail, stay out of the press, and stay out of the ground and make money. Yeah. A FBI agent here in Kansas City gave me a quote one time on a documentary I was doing. He was talking about this national crime syndicate. And he said, yeah, he said, the Italians provided the brawn, and the Jews provided the brains. Pretty much how well you got to Vegas, obviously the Jewish groups around the country had been running gambling. They were smart. Meyer especially was a visionary. This guy was a genius in Meyer’s mind. And he could see that, obviously, Prohibition, as wonderful as it was for them, wasn’t going to last forever. But he could see the future in gambling. And I’m sure he didn’t foresee Las Vegas back when Prohibition was repealed, but he did see the direction things were going. [46:55] He developed gambling all over the country. And then when Vegas came along, this was just a wonderful thing for legalized gambling. They had the expertise, the experience, the knowledge, all they needed. Because opening casino is an expensive venture, so they needed more money. The Italians provided extra cash, and the Jewish groups had all the experience and the knowledge to run there. That’s where, back in the one conference, the Fraconia conference that Meyer organized, where he organized the Jewish groups around the nation, at that time he convinced, both groups were convinced that it was time that they start working together and not be at odds with them. with each other. Yeah, no, it was actually, it turned out to be a real profitable agreement as time went on. Yeah, especially in Las Vegas, so. [47:55] I’ll tell you what, Flatsy, it’s a hell of a book. That’s a hell of a story you’ve got there, guys. [48:00] We’re not going to disclose everything because we’ve got to go on out to Las Vegas, but we’re not going to disclose everything. We want you to buy that book. It really sounds interesting. It’s really a walk through the history and the expansion of organized crime from the early days from the Castle of Racey War and Chicago and the Beer Wars to Minneapolis and on out to Las Vegas. It’s a hell of a story. and Ice-Pick Willie was there for all of it, it sounds to me like. That’s what I found so amazing is pretty much every major event in gangland history at that point in time, he would somehow evolve there. And yet, here like 50 years or so after he’s dead, nobody even remembers him. They will now. The people he knew, the people he associated with, the things he’s seen, what a life really guys the book is Ice Pick Willie the life and times of Israel Alderman and the author is Flats F-L-A-T-S and I will have a link to that book on Amazon when this comes out so thanks a lot Flats I really appreciate you coming on and telling those stories, you betcha thanks for having me.

Transcribed - Published: 13 April 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, I sit down with Salt Lake City author Flats to discuss his book, Ice Pick Willie: The Life and Times of Israel Alderman. We take a deep dive into the shadowy world of Israel “Icepick Willie” Alderman—a largely forgotten but deeply embedded figure in early 20th-century organized crime. Willie’s criminal career traces back to Prohibition-era New York, where he began as a jewelry thief before evolving into something far more lethal. His nickname came from his preferred weapon: an ordinary household ice pick. In the 1920s, it was common, inconspicuous, and devastatingly effective. Flats explains how Willie’s method allowed him to carry out murders quietly and efficiently, often avoiding the attention that accompanied more public gangland shootings. We follow Willie’s movements from New York to Minneapolis and eventually into the orbit of Chicago’s violent underworld. Along the way, he intersected with major figures of organized crime, including Meyer Lansky, Charles Luciano, and Bugs Moran. Flats outlines the shifting alliances and rivalries that defined the era, placing Willie within the broader context of gang wars that culminated in events like the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. The conversation also examines Willie’s transition from violent enforcer to gambling operative as organized crime evolved and shifted westward.  As Las Vegas rose with legalized gambling, figures like Willie adapted—moving from street-level brutality to more structured rackets under established mob leadership. Despite brushing against major historical events and powerful crime bosses, Icepick Willie faded into relative obscurity.  Flats and I explore why certain gangsters become legends while others—equally dangerous and influential—slip into the margins of history. We also touch on Willie’s odd cultural afterlife, including regional pop-culture references that keep his name alive in unexpected ways. This episode provides both a character study of a cold, calculating killer and a broader examination of how organized crime adapted from Prohibition-era chaos to structured syndicates. It’s a detailed look at a man who operated in the shadows—lethal, efficient, and nearly forgotten.Flats’ book, Ice Pick Willie: The Life and Times of Israel Alderman, is available now on Amazon. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 13 April 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence detective Gary Jenkins sits down with former drug trafficker Carlos Perez for a direct, unfiltered discussion about the evolution of the drug trade in America. Carlos has a new book out titled Pedro Pan: The Product of a Revolution Gone Bad    The conversation opens with recent controversy surrounding the reported death of **Jalisco New Generation Cartel leader El Mencho, and what that development signals for the balance of power among modern Mexican cartels. From there, Gary and Carlos trace the arc of the drug trade from the Caribbean smuggling routes of the 1970s and 1980s to the dominance of today’s cartel-controlled corridors.   Carlos reflects on the era of Ronald Reagan and the early “War on Drugs,” describing a time when enforcement was uneven and smugglers routinely exploited weak regulatory environments in places like the Bahamas. He explains how traffickers adapted faster than policymakers, using maritime routes, small aircraft, and coordinated pickup operations to move multi-ton quantities of narcotics.   Gary and Carlos contrast those earlier days with modern interdiction efforts—advanced Coast Guard surveillance, satellite tracking, military-grade radar, and cross-border intelligence sharing. What was once opportunistic smuggling has evolved into highly structured cartel logistics supported by corrupt officials and narco-state dynamics.   Carlos provides a candid account of his own rise in the trade. Starting as a construction laborer, he moved into pickup crews retrieving floating bales of drugs in open water. Over time, he became involved in larger-scale operations involving aircraft and organized distribution networks. He details the operational mechanics, the risks, and the constant calculation between profit and prison—or worse.   The discussion also explores the blurred lines between political authority and cartel influence. Carlos explains how governments in certain regions became intertwined with trafficking operations, illustrating how power, money, and violence intersect across borders.   In the second half of the episode, Carlos shifts to a personal reckoning. He discusses the moral compromises required in the drug trade and the toll it takes on family and identity. Ultimately, he chose to step away, prioritizing stability and long-term survival over fast money.   Now living a legitimate life, Carlos has documented his journey in his book Pedro Pan, offering readers a firsthand account of smuggling culture, Cuban heritage, revolution-era influences, and the psychological weight of that world. His story reflects both personal accountability and a broader commentary on the human side of organized crime.   This episode blends law enforcement perspective with insider testimony, giving listeners a rare dual lens: the cop who chased traffickers and the man who once outran them. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 6 April 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence detective Gary Jenkins sits down with former drug trafficker Carlos Perez for a direct, unfiltered discussion about the evolution of the drug trade in America. Carlos has a new book out titled Pedro Pan: The Product of a Revolution Gone Bad The conversation opens with recent controversy surrounding the reported death of  the Jalisco New Generation Cartel leader El Mencho, and what that development signals for the balance of power among modern Mexican cartels. From there, Gary and Carlos trace the arc of the drug trade from the Caribbean smuggling routes of the 1970s and 1980s to the dominance of today’s cartel-controlled corridors. Carlos reflects on the era of Ronald Reagan and the early “War on Drugs,” describing a time when enforcement was uneven and smugglers routinely exploited weak regulatory environments in places like the Bahamas. He explains how traffickers adapted faster than policymakers, using maritime routes, small aircraft, and coordinated pickup operations to move multi-ton quantities of narcotics. Gary and Carlos contrast those earlier days with modern interdiction efforts—advanced Coast Guard surveillance, satellite tracking, military-grade radar, and cross-border intelligence sharing. What was once opportunistic smuggling has evolved into highly structured cartel logistics supported by corrupt officials and narco-state dynamics. Carlos provides a candid account of his own rise in the trade. Starting as a construction laborer, he moved into pickup crews retrieving floating bales of drugs in open water. Over time, he became involved in larger-scale operations involving aircraft and organized distribution networks. He details the operational mechanics, the risks, and the constant calculation between profit and prison—or worse. The discussion also explores the blurred lines between political authority and cartel influence. Carlos explains how governments in certain regions became intertwined with trafficking operations, illustrating how power, money, and violence intersect across borders. In the second half of the episode, Carlos shifts to a personal reckoning. He discusses the moral compromises required in the drug trade and the toll it takes on family and identity. Ultimately, he chose to step away, prioritizing stability and long-term survival over fast money. Now living a legitimate life, Carlos has documented his journey in his book Pedro Pan: The Product of a Revolution Gone Bad, offering readers a firsthand account of smuggling culture, Cuban heritage, revolution-era influences, and the psychological weight of that world. His story reflects both personal accountability and a broader commentary on the human side of organized crime. This episode blends law enforcement perspective with insider testimony, giving listeners a rare dual lens: the cop who chased traffickers and the man who once outran them. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. Transcript [0:00] Hey, all you wiretappers, Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence [0:03] Unit detective. It’s great to be back here in the studio. It’s a cold day in Kansas City, Missouri, but we’re going to talk to a warm state and with a man that lives in that warm state, Carlos Perez. Welcome, Carlos. How are you doing, Gary? Doing good? Yeah, I’m doing good. A little cold, and I know it’s much warmer down there. We talked about that. Carlos was involved in the drug business, which is quite topical right now, especially today. Now, this won’t come out today, but as of over the weekend, the Mexican government arrested the El Mencho, the head of that, I can’t remember the name of that cartel. It was a Western Mexico, the state of Jalisco cartel. And somehow he got killed on the way to Mexico City as they’re transporting him. And his guys, the cartel members, are going crazy. Carlos, let’s talk about that a little bit, about this new war on drugs. When I was in Ronnie Reagan’s war on drugs, it was different than it is now. Now we have this new war on drugs with blowing drug boats out of the water. And this guy dies on the way to the bigger jail. Well, let’s talk about that a little bit. Carlos, how would you, as a former drug trafficker, how do you react to that? [1:18] The laws change. And the more that the smugglers change, the more that the system to catch them changes also. In fact, when you’re talking about Ronald Reagan’s war on drugs, there was quite a few things that allowed the smugglers to succeed. One was, most of it, and I’m talking Caribbean now, most of it was going through the Bahamas. The Bahamas had laws at that time where anything governmental was not allowed to land nor dock a boat anywhere in the Bahamas without the permission of the Bahamian government. Which, by the time they got to wherever, if they reacted, if they were advised of some drugs coming in, it would take them a long time to react. I think they had two boats for all the islands that had to travel back and forth. You never, you couldn’t, they couldn’t, the DEA, the Coast Guard, they couldn’t catch you. [2:12] And when you fly a plane in, you just land anywhere and say hello to the DEA as they’re flying by because they can’t land. And therefore, you score the load that you have. Nowadays, Jesus God Almighty, now you’ve got the Coast Guard out there. You’ve got the Coast Guard citation constantly flying, plus Navy. But you couldn’t get it done. And back in those days, that’s the way it was done. It was the Bahamas played a huge part. The prime minister of the Bahamas was so heavily, even though he never. [2:42] Did any time or anything he was heavily involved he took payoffs to left left and right the whole the situation is completely different now you got AWACS flying overhead that can hear you when you’re in the bathroom anybody here’s my opinion on that I want to know who in the hell was in charge of sending those boats out of Venezuela that after the first one got blown up who was telling them to keep sending boats over now if maduro this is my theory if maduro was smart he would have stopped that if he was really the one in charge he would have gone god you got to make me look better you can’t keep doing it that tells me he was not in charge of the shit okay so there’s someone behind that kept going send them we got to see if we can score keep the score, i don’t know how he kept doing that that was to me that was such a stupid move especially when you You see that you’ve got half of America’s Navy sitting on your doorstep, and you keep trying to send drugs. What are you, nuts? The Pacific, they should have gone over to the Pacific, where there’s less surveillance, and maybe run it up the Pacific coast by land. [3:53] Okay. Try to get it into Mexico by land. Because back in the day, Mexico was not really involved at all in that. It was the Caribbean. And then when the Colombian cartel, which was Medellin cartel, when they stopped losing so many loads, they started to go to Mexico. And through Mexico, they just flew small planes, landed in the woods somewhere in Mexico, and then they moved it up. That was not – you weren’t doing that in the Caribbean by that time. And talking about Reagan’s war on drugs, I had two – this is the sideline. I had two little boats coming in from the Bahamas that had marijuana on them. [4:35] I still got to laugh at this freaking idiot. One of them, they were coming in from – Bimney’s only 47 miles away. You can almost do it on the fumes of a gas tank. This guy forgot to gas up. Coming over, he gets stopped by the Marine Patrol, right? As they’re searching him, the other boat had gone through but was wondering where his partner was, and he goes back to see where the guy is. [5:01] How’s that for – anyway, they get them both. It was a total of about 1,200 pounds. That had come from Jamaica, that’s about –, And the vice president, who was Bush, was at the Coast Guard dock when they were unloading the boats. And I was sitting there watching, going, damn, they look like my boats. And when I investigated, it was a—but that was one little incident that had happened. But the difference between yesterday, yesteryear, and now is chronologically things change. They trump the other everybody that was a president or that that had something to do with stopping the trade with drugs never really stuck their foot in deep to stop it it makes me feel like yeah you’re not really you’re talking a lot but you’re not really doing much because if i was a cop my god i usually i’d have had all kinds of medals from stopping these people because it’s an easy thing but no one really had the interest who was involved economically up the top god and only In the Bahamas, I knew who it was. It was the prime minister. Knew his people real well. In the States, everything changes every couple of years. And you don’t know what they’re thinking, what their process of thought is to try to stop this. You know what it was? None. They didn’t try. Okay, they did not try. [6:22] There used to be, oh God, probably about two or three DC-3s a night landing in Bimini, 47 miles away. Okay? Each one of them had 10,000 pounds on it. The boats were running up the river, the Miami River. Once you get inside on a river, inside land, you pretty much already scored. That changed. Then it went to freighters, fast boats going out, picking up, coming in. Then when the United States stopped that, when they declared, we’re going to be able to stop any boat anywhere in international waters. You couldn’t do it back then. [7:02] When that ended then you began with the airplanes the airplanes would take it this is still back when you when the US or any governmental agency could not, set foot in the Bahamian territory, Bahamian waters, without the prime minister’s knowledge. The prime minister’s involved. You’re not going to get it. It’s not going to happen. So that change, and it went to small airplanes. Fly it in anywhere you want in the Bahamas, and then get your boats, and from there on in, try to see what you’re thinking, your process of thought is going to be to get it from the Bahamas, some of the shorter points to the States and to Miami at that point. One of them for me was easy. And that was because I had information on the Miami tower and where in the hell everything was at any point in time. So I would sit and wait for my messenger to get back to me, to tell me where the smoker was, which was the big Coast Guard boat and where the citation was. Once I knew that, I knew I could come across. And the only thing I was going to run into was fishermen. [8:10] So things changed. And then they allowed things change after that. And obviously they were allowed to go into the Bahamas and do whatever they wanted. But that was when Pinland was finally out. I don’t know who the prime minister became after that, but it changed. And now it became, this is why I think that the cartels were stupid. They, instead of doing as much as you could without getting noticed, they started bringing in loads of 10,000 and 20,000 kilos. I was like, God, what the hell do they get all that? I know where they get it, but since I know how the situation goes, I want to know how they amass it and get it onto one boat or one container or whatever and not have it noticed. That’s just way too much to not notice at one point or another. People get edgy around shit like that. In other words, I could take two people and put them in front of a container and separate them and tell one of them, that’s full of drugs, and then tell the other one, no, that’s full of furniture. And then stand both of them there and see who gets nervous. [9:16] It’s human nature. It’s human nature. If you know something bad is going on, to feel it and to react. Why they did that, I don’t know. I was one of the ones, if not the only one, that was sent to Mexico to teach them how to put airstrips in the middle of the jungle, how to protect them, what to do with them, where to put potholes with certain rocks, get them out when they play in the stomach, put them back in when he’s done so if anyone else tries to land, they’re gone. But how it got so deep, I’ll never understand that. And I was pretty much in the beginning of smuggling as to notice chronologically how everything’s seen because I stayed for quite a while. Yeah. Now, Carlos, you’ve written a book about this. What’s the name of that book? The book is called Heisting the Beard. I just need the beard. The beard with a D, meaning Fidel Castro. Ah, interesting. Yeah, he’s just in Cubans when they go like this to their chin or they mention him and they mention him as the beard. He was heavily involved in the decision-making of Cuba running drones. [10:27] That book is about, oh, I ran into a guy. This is how this happens, which is really fun. I ran into a guy who I used to call him by the name of Banco. And he came and told me that he knew where there was a big load of drugs, jewels that they had pilfered from the ocean where they knew that shipwrecks have gone down. Because no one can dive around Cuba. And Cuba is a country that held all the gold before it went to Spain. Everything stopped there and went on. So he told me he knew where there was a warehouse that was holding that plus a lot of coke. And I had ways to get in. I have a friend who’s Bahamian, who was actually one of my partners, who’s from Ragged Island in the Bahamas. Ragged Island is maybe… [11:17] 20 miles off the Cuban coast, down on the eastern end of Cuba. So it was easy for me to sneak in. Everyone thinks of Cuba as this military power, Russia’s buddy. They didn’t have shit. They couldn’t put a plane in the air. They didn’t have patrol boats. They had patrol boats, but I swear I could out-swim them. It was ridiculous to see at what point they were developed as far as a country. And it was like, everything is going downhill as today, and it keeps going downhill. So I would sneak in on a Zodiac. [11:53] And I’d hit the coast, middle of the night. No one would see me. I speak perfect Spanish. I speak a Cuban dialect. So I wasn’t going to get caught by it because I looked like a black bean in a pot of white rice. It wasn’t going to be like that. So we figured out where everything was, and we went in and took a little look. And got awake after a lot of headaches, but we were able to do that. There’s other instances where there’s an airport right next to Havana called the Varadero Airport, and it’s a military airport. And I know that they were holding a lot of cocaine that was going in there. The reason I know that is because hearsay in the streets in Miami, you go drink a little Cuban coffee somewhere, you hear assholes talking garbage, and they would say that they were getting boats ready to go to Cuba to bring in whatever they had. So it’s not really why they make it a mystery as to why they were involved. If you think logically, let’s say you leave Colombia and you’re doing business with Cuba. Wouldn’t it be safe to just, oh, you’re chasing me, let me land in Cuba and I got no problem, not because they don’t want you here, but they want me here. That’s logically speaking. So why that… [13:11] That mystery among people that they weren’t involved. What are you, crazy? Not only that, recently, you might have seen it, they’ve had a Carlos Leder Riva. Okay. [13:27] Carlos, can you say that over again? It just zeroed out to say that over again. After you said Carlos Leder. Leder Rivas. Yeah. Now, whatever you said after that, say that over again. [13:45] Carlos Lerder Rivas recently has done some interviews on the drug trade. He did a lot of time in the States over the Norman’s Key transporting point where all the coke would go there. And then, like I told you before, they fly it into the Bahamas and then over into the States. He recently has been on saying how he was personally involved with Raul Castro. I have no doubt about that. I knew him personally. i flew a couple times into that island where it was transported out so i know what he was told the reason i also know that is everybody has this pablo escobar myth in their head he was neither the boss and he was neither the money man the money people were the ochoas the military his might and his force did not come from him and his mouth that he could do this and that it comes from rodriguez gacha who had a 2 000 man private army and he was one of the members of the cartel and they never tell you who started it all and it was carlos letter rivas he was the one that started the cartel he’s the one that wanted to be on in the colombian parliament and was looking for votes escobar is he was a he was a late comer into all that stuff the only reason they put him out there that I can understand is because they just wanted to figure out that they could knock the hell out of later on. [15:09] Okay? Because when he started fighting against Los Pepes, which was that organization that got together to try to kill Pablo, Pablo reversed it on those guys. He got rid of almost all of them, but it wasn’t him. It was Rodriguez. [15:24] Rodriguez gotcha. He’s the one. And he was involved in the Emerald business before he got into the coke business. He was the guy, let me tell you what, when Pablo was around, and I only saw that once, when Pablo was around Gacha, okay, this was down in La Guajira, in the high desert in Colombia. When he was around Gacha, you could tell that he was subordinate. He was scared. He was like, damn, if I mess up with this guy, he’ll take my head off. [15:53] So people really have the whole story, Pablo, Pablo, my, you know what, Pablo, my ass. There’s a lot of people who you had to have money to do those things yeah and in those days they were strong enough because of the ochoas well they could gather big loads a thousand two thousand keys and put it all together but as time went on chronologically that shit changed okay i can remember once getting a load where it had it damn you they labeled it they labeled everyone One had one name, one had the other So what they were doing at that time Was it got so tough on them Because of Pablo’s big mouth And because of his, I’m going to take over Blowing up a plane Doing a few other attacking parliament All those things You couldn’t put those loads together To me there’s no cartels anymore To me they’re government Narco systems You. [16:55] The Mexican government is definitely involved with the cartels. And as you saw, we went after a cartel in Venezuela, but the head of the cartel was the Venezuelan government. So what they are is narco states now. And you know how hard it is to attack or to deal with a narco state? Now you’re dealing with a government entity that has a lot of power. It’s a completely different ballgame. And Venezuela themselves, including Cuba, had a diplomatic immunity flying into different countries with the drugs. And they could put a load of cocaine on and fly into Spain, and they had no problem with it. And they were doing those kind of things, I would say, recently, like within the last 10 or 15 years. Maybe even since Maduro has been there, which is about 20 years, that they’ve been doing that. Really, the United States can get information on anything they want. They had this information but couldn’t do anything about it. [17:57] So chronologically, everything changes. Back in the beginning, let me tell you, the first time I made a little money was hauling some marijuana with old Touch Brown from the Everglades. And I worked like a Hebrew slave for four days in the swamp hauling bails from marijuana and into the into the everglades and then over into miami and it was completely different game and you know what they didn’t cheat me for one penny they didn’t cheat me for one penny and how much came in 40 tons on one of the boats yeah it was 80 000 pounds on a freighter and we worked like little like slaves and they paid me like two weeks later, they paid me $2. I’ll tell you that story in a minute. You asked me a while ago how I got started. Should I answer that, or you got another question you want for me? No, go ahead. How’d you get started in that? You started out as a grunt, as we say in the military. You started out as a low-end worker, a guy that transports bales. What did you do? You started saving your money up, and you knew where the connections were, and finally you You bought your own load and just kept getting bigger and bigger. [19:11] In a sense, yeah, it wasn’t drastic. When I came in, here’s the story. I’m in Texas. My mom calls me up and tells me I have an uncle who’s in Texas. He wants to see me. I get together with him, and he’s driving a brand-new Cadillac. This is a guy who, two and two to him is 22. I know he’s my uncle, but he’s a dumb son of a bitch. [19:35] He’s telling me that he’s got a, you know what a roach coach is? Yeah. with those construction things with food. He tells me he has a red smoke in Miami and that he bought a house, got a house, he’s doing really good. And I looked at him and I said, bro, you’re the one that’s crushed. You’re the wetback. I came on a plane a long time ago. He’s telling me stories. What’s going on here? So anyway, he tells me and I say to him, get me a job. I was working as a carpenter in Houston. Straight out of college, I’m banging nails. I said, God damn, I’m banging nails. but I got an education here. What’s going on? So anyway, I loaded up in Houston. I head and I end up in Coconut Grove working for one of the bosses. My job was $500 a week and I had to go and sleep on his yacht about 7 p.m. And by 6 in the morning when the workers started coming in, just go. That went on for about four or five months and I finally said, let me make some real money because I saw he was still moving and doing things economically economically moving forward, and I was sleeping on a boat. So he finally gets me an interview with two of the bosses. And this is a building in Miami that was called the DuPont Plaza building. [20:52] And so we go to the meeting, and I’m talking to the two guys. One of them, they called him El Coronel, and the other one, El Colorado. The Colonel and Red. They were the ones that were handling it. And this was, by the way, this was marijuana, coming from Colombia at that time. So we go in there, and he tells me, no problem. I’ll pay you $2 a pound. Now, understand that at that time, at that point in time, my mind is in Jersey and New York. And if you’re moving 20 pounds from one place to the other, it’s a lot. You’re not dealing with loads at that time. We’re talking, what, 1977 in New York? And I looked at him, I said, you’re fucking crazy. You think I’m going to risk my ass for $2 a pound? Even if it’s 300 pounds, that’s $600. Are you fucking nuts? [21:45] My uncle grabbed me by the shirt, stood me up and said, excuse me. Walked me outside and said, listen, there’s 40 tons coming in. You want the job or not? I went back in. I apologized to you guys. I said, no problem. I will go to work. From that point on, there wasn’t, that’s just, was right about at the end of the big freighters. And so now my uncle invites me to go to Bimini because he had a friend there and they were going to do some job. I don’t know. When we go, I end up running into a younger guy, Bahamian, and I became partners with him. We call him Dreamer. And I said, look, if you can set things up over here and gather up whatever materials you can gather up, I’ll come and get it and we’ll be partners. At that time, a lot of freighters and a lot of boats were being chased by the Coast Guard and what they would do is they would drop, they would dump it overboard. Oh yeah. Ergo the, what they call it, the square grouper. [22:44] Yeah, I’ve heard that before. Bales were floating everywhere. You could go out. So what he would do is he would go on a boat, find bales that were floating. He would call me up, and he would tell me, hey, I salvaged a 300-horsepower engine. Come and get it. I knew what the weight was, so I knew what kind of boat I had to take. So I bought an 18-foot formula. I dug out the hole in the bottom. I made a secret hole. What the what cubans call a clavo a clavo which is you’re hiding it underboard he called me up one day tells me there’s three he can get 300 pounds i left at eight in the morning was back in miami by 11 30 left at about 12 30 went back and picked up another load so in that first job we ended up making a couple hundred thousand dollars from there we bought a bigger boat, Now he started patrolling, All the area where the boats were coming in Because everything flows from the Gulf Down in this area, flows north The Gulf Stream goes north So everything’s going to float this way somehow. [23:54] We did that for probably a year Until one time, I was over there. We were going fishing, and we ran into a duffel bag. The duffel bag had 65 kilos in it that was just floating. At that time, it cost probably around $40,000 a kilo in Miami, let alone New York. We didn’t bother to take it up north. Sold it all in Miami. I used to say to myself, where in the hell does all this cash come from? Because they would pay. We made a lot of money that time. And then we had seen… Carlos, let me interject here. No, no. [24:38] You were making hundreds of thousands of dollars just by picking up cocaine and marijuana that had been thrown off other boats. So you didn’t even have to go buy it, really. You guys were just picking it up, the square groupers, and then putting it together and then bringing it to money. That’s crazy. You are an entrepreneur. You’re a guy that sees an opportunity and seizes it. Tell you what. And that’s exactly how it went, Gary. When we made that big chunk of money, we had seen how things were going because we knew that planes were coming in and landing. And they had whatever it is that they were hauling, either coke or marijuana. So with that amount of money, we bought a plane and I decided to become a pilot. I said, hell, we’re going to cut this down. I’ll fly. We’ll save money that way. And now we can talk to the people down in Jamaica or Columbia and say, hey, we’re coming together. We’re taking a responsibility. We’re not going to middle it. We’re not going to find it. We’re going to do the job. And it took off from there. [25:43] Took off real good from there. Eventually, I see that you are going to build in to have a legitimate life, become a horse breeder and a ranch owner and rub elbows with all the kind of the muckety mucks, if you will, down there in Florida. So tell us about that transition and how did your life change during that time? [26:04] I had a family. I had four kids by then. And I knew that I was in a business where the chances were threefold. I either score or I die or I go to jail. And I didn’t like any of those odds at that time. I was like, you know what? I’ve made enough money. I got a small little ranch out here. I don’t need to do anything. And I decided that was it. I don’t need to be doing this anymore. I’m set. And I’m the kind of person, I’m set with what I mathematically calculate. I’m not like I need almost $20 million. I calculated it to where I knew I could be comfortable. And talking about the mucks and the big famous guys, I had lunch with Sam Walton one time. How did you do that? [26:59] I was at his, his daughter, Nancy Walton, Laurie was heavily into the horse. And by that time I was into horses also. So we used to, I used to show them all over the country and we were in, in Illinois at a horse show. And the setup that his daughter used to put out there was unbelievable. It was like, whew, she really put out a spread. And he happened to be there one time. And it wasn’t like I went and had lunch with him, but a few people sat around, ate a couple of grilled burgers. And that’s my story of Sam Wolfe, the richest man in the world at that time. And look who he’s having lunch with. how really i’ve noticed going to horse races that a lot of the support staff are all hispanic i think because hispanic people know how to deal with horses have an affinity affinity for horses, you’re absolutely right the barn work even me and who as far as the horses went i was a nobody i just had my own little stretch even my workers were mexican they just are good at it they’re very good at that. Interesting. They understand country life, too. Yeah. [28:10] So, what happened? You’re like, you’re going straight. You haven’t really done any time. Surely DEA, I know enough about them that they keep files, and they may not do anything about you now, but they know a lot about you, and they don’t forget. So, what happened here? You can’t feed the government. It’s an entity, not an individual. You know, one guy prosecutes you and he retires. That doesn’t mean your case is over. He hands it over to somebody else and it goes on and on. They didn’t get, I didn’t get caught doing anything. I had too many ways to outmaneuver them and not because I was smarter than anybody else. It’s because I had contact. I had a contact, like I told you, at the Miami Tower where I would call him and say, hey, I need to know where this was. He would call me back and let me know exactly when I could cross. [29:06] So it was a matter of, in my case, I didn’t play Russian roulette. I tried to put things on more of the positive end of it on my side but i’m so they arrested me for money because they thought i had too much first the irs came in and they started checking out the next thing i know is i’m being visited by by the fbi but it was alphabet soup when they showed up at their hotel yeah not the farm i was like what the hell are these guys doing here anyway they grabbed me took me in and i’ll give you a funny story and you used to be a policeman yes all They pick me up, and I say to the guy, the old James Cagney state, I’ll be home before you tonight. Yeah, I’ll be home. You’ll be still writing your report when I’m back home. You’ll still be filling out the paperwork, but I’ll be sitting at home. [29:58] So I played that act. And actually, I did get home pretty quick. I was able to call my lawyer. He actually called up the mayor of Fort Myers. His name was Wilbur Smith. And he was a lawyer also. And Wilbur is the one that got me. It happened to have been on a Friday, which meant if they didn’t work something out, I was going to sit my ass in the jail until Monday. When the judge comes up. But Wilbur got me out of it. Wait a minute. Wait till the dogs get, okay. Can you start that with Wilbur? Wilbur got me out of that when the dogs quit. Let’s see. [30:38] Anyway, Wilbur gets me out of it. I’m walking down the hall with Wilbur to go see the judge real quick. And he says to me, he goes, do you do drugs? Do you have any drugs on you? And I’m like, oh, Jesus. I don’t know. I smoke weed, but I don’t touch anything else. I never have. And he goes, so, okay, we’re okay with that. And in my pocket. I had a joint in my pocket. I pull it out and I go, here. Oh, Jesus Christ, put that back. Oh, Wilbur. Oh, Wilbur’s shit when he saw that. But anyway, I was home. I was home that night. Now, here’s another funny story. I had a, along with this story, I had a maid at the house at the farm. And she was Brazilian. And she was not a resident or anything. That girl took, when they came, went to pick me up. And they took me into, it was a U.S. Marshall. She took off running into the woods. and I’m talking deep Florida woods and when I got back home about an hour later she ends up showing up and I said what are you doing why did you take off like that I was scared they were going to deport me, if you were scared what do you think I was. [31:46] And when they showed up that one time when they showed up you could have sworn that they were picking up Pablo Escobar it was alphabet soup long guns long freaking guns not just People holding their little long guns. Yeah. And I’m like, all this for me? Really? And you know what it is? It’s not long before that happened. They had called me in to do a polygraph. [32:14] The FBI did. I had no problem because they were trying to associate me with the head of the Indian cartel in America, the guy that handled everything, including the money. You might have, did you see Cocaine Cowboys Kings of Miami? Yeah, I did. Okay. The one guy, George Valdez, that was pretty much testifying against the other guys that he said he helped. Like how can you you’re snitching right in front of everybody bro anyway he i had a farm next to his, and the next thing i know because i guess they tried to associate me with him i had nothing to do with him next thing i know the fbi is calling me out they do a polygraph even my lawyer said don’t do the polygraph it’s not mandatory said i got nothing to hide now they told me they were going to ask me about horses they ended up asking me everything except horses until i finally yeah took those things off my fingers i pulled them off and i said this is done and i left not long after that is when they swatted in i was like jesus god who do they think they’re picking up here i’m just a in in uh in sense i’m still even if they know everything i’m still a grunt, I’m working for you. It’s not like I’m Mr. Put-it-together shit. You call me up, hey, we got a job. You want it? Yes or no? But it was unbelievable. [33:41] I went to jail. I did some time in jail. When I got out, I never once again really, even though I got 100 phone calls about you want to go to work, you want to listen to that, I never really thought about it again. My kids were growing up. The youngest one was six or seven by then. And they had suffered because I was gone. Yeah. And I didn’t like that. That made me feel like shit. [34:10] It just, it got to the point where when I was working, I looked at everything economically. Hey, this is what I’ll be able to have. Once you have what you want, economics is bullshit if that’s what you’re working for, because you already have it. Yeah. And when I got out, my thoughts were completely different. My thoughts were that the money is not going to solve any issues I may have. Physically, maybe. Mentally, no. mentally, I’ve got to learn how to deal with a little bit of reality here and figure out who is affected by my actions. And the people that were affected by my actions were people that were close to me. And I didn’t enjoy that. I didn’t enjoy that at all. It made me double take. It made me go inside and do a lot of things. [35:04] So from that point on, I really didn’t know what to do. And so I have a friend who is a big-time producer in Hollywood. We grew up together in Jersey, who told me, wow, you’ve got a lot of stories. You should start writing. I never thought about writing. So I started putting down ideas. I wrote a book. I wrote a bunch of political essays on what was going on in Cuba. See, I grew up in a revolutionary family. My father was in intelligence, and my uncle trained the troops that were going to go to the Bay of Pigs, among other incursions into Cuba. So I came over, I’m six years old. I’m a Peter Pan kid. I don’t know if you know what that is. Now, what is that? You’ve mentioned that before. What is that? Tell the guys. Peter Pan is, it’s not a good translation because it has nothing to do with Peter Pan. In Spanish, it’s Pedro Pan and had to do with a little kid eating some bread or whatever. But in 1960, the Catholic Church got together and decided to send the children out of Cuba so they wouldn’t suffer the wraths of the revolution. In essence, 14,000 kids were put on planes and sent into the States. I was one of them. Wow. I ended up in Miami. [36:27] I was one of them, and I was actually one of the lucky ones because I had family in Miami at that time, so I was able to stay with them. My parents were still back in Cuba applying to leave. Back then, they called the freedom flights. So a lot of those kids though they were sent some of them were sent to alaska montana wyoming really they were dispersed all over through families that were willing to help and and keep them until their parents came so i was one of them that grew up because of my father and my uncle the conversation most of the time if not all the time was around cuba and his freedom so the revolution at that time is going really strong in New Jersey. There’s a family in New Jersey by the name, the last name is Cook. [37:17] And they owned a big factory called Cook, Color, and Chemical. They were very wealthy people, but evidently they lost a lot of land or investments in Cuba. So they were willing to help the revolution and the revolutionaries. They had a big farm in this small little town called Hope. And that little town, you had all the Cuban revolutionaries up there getting ready. I’m talking about going into the woods with every kind of equipment you could think of. And they were training to go to Cuba. Now, here I am, six, seven years old. And I’m running around the woods with these maniacs. They would dress me in camouflage and tell me I was the next generation of Cuban revolutionaries. And I’m like, what the fuck is this guy talking? I didn’t. I was having a good time with all these guys. [38:06] And it ended up being that the new york times caught wind that there were these crazy cubans. [38:12] In the woods in jersey and they had to move their operations down to florida but about what happened in jersey in jersey the mafia at that time they were all involved with the kennedy and the prior to the assassination and everything that was going on they thought that the cubans did it they thought to the mafia. They didn’t know who did it. But there was a get-together one time. I was probably about seven or eight years old, and it was a dove shoot where they had a thousand doves, and they would all line them up and let some of them go, and then they would do a big dove fricassee. But that meeting, I just remember the names because I was being introduced, the son of, and this is Mr. Spud. The names never left me. One of them was Santos Traficante, who was the head of the mafia in in in tampa the other one was fat tony salerno who was the head of the mafia in new york there was my mom’s cousin who was an fbi uh agent and a bunch of other guys that looked exactly like him they dressed exactly like him well i could pick you out of a barrel boy and a lot of these other i grew up in the jersey new york area so i know what tough guys act especially of the Italian guys. So there was a bunch of them walking around like they could take on the world. And this is part of my life. I’m a young person doing it. I really don’t know what’s going on, but I’m picking up on all this stuff. [39:40] They moved to Florida. I’m away from all that stuff for a while. But my parents regularly go to Florida for a visit, for vacation. So every year, I’m running into my uncle and the things that he’s doing, what’s going on. [39:57] And so the life never mentally never leaves me. I’m always, I’m always hearing next year in Havana, we’re going to get them, all this nonsense. So the years go on and on and the situation, you wonder how the smuggling game got started. The smuggling games basically, and I saw a report on this not long ago, some lady reporting on it. You had a lot of educated men that were involved in the revolution that wanted to get their country done. The U.S. government, Secret Service at the ICIA, whoever they may be, cut off the funds when all the bullshit with Cuba was done. You’re not allowed to leave from U.S. soil if we cut you with any arms headed down. And they caught a lot of these Cubans trying to go to Cuba on little boats with all kinds of armament. They didn’t do shit to them. Okay, they just slapped them on the head and don’t do that. But it got to the point where the government was not funding that part of the Cuban Revolution anymore. What do a bunch of college-educated, university-educated men do? [41:06] They’re going to go work at the Fountain Blue? My father worked at the Fountain Blue when he first got to Miami. And there was water fountains that said whites, blacks, and Cubans. He was still trying to drink. It’s like my mother used to tell me. I didn’t know I was white until I got to this country. And now all of a sudden we have white Spanish, white this, white this. It’s ridiculous. So these men were not going to go to work with a little bacon with a little Cuban coffee. They have all these contacts all through Central and South America because of the revolution. So who becomes the primary smugglers? [41:44] Yes, the Cuban revolutionaries. And that’s how smuggling was started in the Caribbean. I’m involved with all these people because of my father and my uncle. My legacy is I can get right in. I don’t have to prove anything to anybody. And that’s how I got to my uncle and him giving me the job with the guy. No, that nonsense. So it’s like the grateful dad said, what a long, strange trip it’s been. It’s been. [42:13] So where are you at now with your life? [42:17] Right now, we’re putting together hopefully a TV show on basically my life, but my life in a novel way, not in a very direct memoir way. And I continue to write. I am married to a wonderful woman who actually led me down this path. I was sitting on my farm doing quite well. My wife at that time had passed away from pancreatic cancer. That’s a death sentence. Yeah, I’ve heard that. [42:52] I didn’t have a will, and everything was in her name because I wanted to protect the family. Yeah. So when she dies, everything’s gone. I’m not knowing which way to turn here. I was 50, 70 years old. I thought I was going to be relaxing and fishing every day, and it didn’t work out that way. I was going downhill like a sled in a snowstorm, boy. I was going to hit eventually. I don’t know what bottom would have been, but I knew there wouldn’t be good. And I ran into a wonderful woman who led me down the road of, we’ve got to write, we’ve got to do this. And she is my manager, and we eventually got married. And sometimes things are tough, but they’re a whole lot better than getting that bottom. Yeah, really. Better than you’re out of jail. You’re not in jail. Not there anymore. What a long, strange trip it’s been for Carlos J.C. Perez. [43:57] I want to know how strange it gets to the point where the DEA comes to me to get information. And I’m like, you guys got to be kidding me. I always knew that when you’re in law enforcement, you depend on information. You go wherever you think the source is, that’s for sure. You think you can get something out of them. Exactly. They ended up being great, by the way. Great guys. Super nice guys. Okay? And if I said any different, I’d be lying. [44:28] But it doesn’t sound like you ever particularly worked for them. You didn’t go back in undercover for them either. No, no, I didn’t do that. Luckily, when I was doing the stuff that I was doing, it wasn’t out. It wasn’t a guns and roses type deal. I don’t ever remember collecting any money or doing anything where I had to have a gun on it. I’ll give you a little tidbit of something that just happened recently. I had to go into a government and reinstate my license or something like that. The lady’s going through it. She comes up with a ticket that I got in 19—now, I’m talking in the year 2000 and probably 14. She comes up with a ticket that I got in 82. It was a ticket. Yeah. The ticket was for $52. Two different tickets, 26 each. Okay. Yeah. You know what that ticket was for? I had come in from the Bahamas in the hull of the boat. I had 800 pounds. The Marine Patrol pulls me over and says, let me see what you got. They go through the whole thing. He finds two lobsters that I had in the live $26 per lobster. I got the ticket. The guy never checked the boat, never did anything. And I got in with 800 pounds, which at that time was like a quarter million bucks. [45:50] Oh my God. Life is funny, man. Life is funny. Life is funny. That’s for sure. All right. Carlos Perez. Now the name of the book and guys, I will, I will have a link in the show notes to it. Remind me of the name of the book, Carlos. Pedro Pan. Pedro Pan, as in Peter Pan. And Ron is bred in Spanish. So there’s something to think about the little magical character, Peter Pan. Not a thing. Not a thing. And it’s a product of a revolution gone bad, which basically is me. I’m an unfortunate product of that. Revolution. You’re back around now. You’re contributing to society. That’s the only thing that’s important in the end. Hey, I have a quick question. Did you ever hear of a book called The Corporation written by a guy named T.J. English? Oh, hell yeah. Read it from cover to cover. As a matter of fact, I know the guy. [46:46] What’s his name? Batista? Was it Jorge Batista? No, Battle. Battle, yeah. As a matter of fact, I know the guys that own the manuscript. Okay tj what’s his name what’s his last name tj english english the only thing he did was write the book off of the notes that they had gotten from a guy that i know his name is tony gonzalez tony gonzalez has another partner by the last name of freitas and what they did was they investigated battle over the years and years and and then somehow ran into english because he had written a couple of books on Cuba. And then T.J. English ended up writing that. And by the way, Battle took the New York mafia and put it on its knees. Yeah, I did a story on the book. And that’s true. He had to get permission. Actually, he had to get permission from back in the 60s from Fat Tony Salerno, and they couldn’t get an approval until Traficante stepped in and said, work with him. And what the hell were they doing then? They were killing each other. They were blowing up their little bolita houses and all that. Oh, that was crazy. But you know what? He was never any kind of a Cuban mafia boss. [48:05] He liked to fight chickens and play the numbers. The Cubans don’t really have a mafia per se. They’re too splintered. And in the mafia, you’ve got to go ask permission to do this and that. These crazy guys, they don’t ask anybody permission for anything. [48:19] Interesting that’s a that’s an interesting world that’s a whole different world that cuban, You’ve got the revolution on one side, the Castro revolution, and then you’ve got the anti-revolution against Castro that’s been going on all these years. And in the middle of it, you’ve got some of these people that were kicked out of Cuba that can’t get jobs and they only want you to work as a waiter or something. And so you go into business and the best business going with your connections is the drug business. And so it’s just a really interesting millage, if you will, or mix of people and situations down in the southwest part or southeast part of the United States. Oh, yeah, you’re right. It is a millage of like, how does this work? [49:04] There’s no sense to it sometimes. No, that’s for sure. I guess I’m glad they weren’t blowing boats out of the water. They might have got you back then. I can’t tell you what. They wouldn’t have dared because I would have said, I said, why don’t you do that? Oh, you get somebody else to do it. Yeah, probably what would have saved my ass anyway is that I have never, ever been money hungry. My family in Cuba, my great-grandfather was a sugar baron. And I’ve heard all the stories about all the money, but I’ve yet to see a penny. [49:36] I don’t work that way. I grew up with a bunch of humble people. And it wasn’t, damn sure, it wasn’t about money. And when I’m young, I’m not thinking like that. But now at my age, I go, wow, man, if I knew then, what do I know now? Yeah, really. All right, Carlos. Thanks a lot for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. No, no problem, Gary. Thanks for having me on. Okay.

Transcribed - Published: 6 April 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins sits down with author and historian Gary Clemente for a deep dive into the remarkable life of Nicola Gentile, one of the most influential yet little-known figures in early American organized crime. Click here to find books by mob expert Gary Celemente Gentile was no street thug. Born in Sicily in 1884, he immigrated to the United States in the early 1900s and became a roving Mafia diplomat—trusted to mediate disputes among crime families in cities such as New York, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Kansas City, Pueblo, Chicago, and beyond. Known as Zio Nicola (“Uncle Nick”), Gentile operated as a stabilizing force during the most violent period of Mafia history, including Prohibition and the Castellammarese War. Clemente reveals that Gentile’s story survives largely because Gentile broke the ultimate Mafia rule: he wrote memoirs. Those writings—published in Italy in the 1960s—were seized by the FBI and later translated by Clemente’s father, Peter Clemente, one of the first Sicilian-born agents assigned to the FBI’s elite Top Hoodlum Squad. The episode offers rare insight into those translations and the intelligence value they held for federal investigators. The discussion traces Gentile’s interactions with legendary figures such as Carlo Gambino, Al Capone, Lucky Luciano, and Vito Genovese, as well as his behind-the-scenes role in shaping the Mafia’s modern organizational structure—including the creation of the national Commission. The episode also explores Gentile’s personal contradictions: a lifelong criminal who saw himself as an honorable man, a mediator capable of violence, and a romantic who later believed a lover betrayed him to federal authorities. After fleeing the U.S. under indictment, Gentile returned to Sicily, where he later provided intelligence to Allied forces during World War II—another unlikely chapter in an already extraordinary life. Despite being sentenced to death by Mafia leaders for publishing his memoirs, Gentile was spared due to the respect he commanded on both sides of the Atlantic. He died peacefully in Sicily in 1970, leaving behind a story so expansive it feels tailor-made for film. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. [0:00] Hey, all you wiretappers, Gary Jenkins back here in the studio of Gangland Wire. I am a former Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective and now turned podcaster and documented filmmaker. We record the mafia, everything we can about the mob. And today I’ve been wanting to do this story, guys, as a man named Nicola Gentile. Did I get that right, Gary? Beautiful. All right. This is Gary Clemente, and Gary’s been on before, or GP Clemente. He’s been on before. His father was Peter Clemente, who was one of the original Sicilian-born FBI agents in the United States and did a lot of translation work with Bellacci. And he’s written, he’s writing books. So we talked about the first book, but tell just a little bit more about it. And guys, I’ll have links to that book. And then tell me a little bit about the two more you have coming out. The first book that I wrote in a series of books about my father’s lengthy FBI career is called Untold Mafia Tales from the FBI Top Hoodlum Squad. [1:04] And it’s about my father’s career in the mafia from 1950 to 1976. And in 1957, he became a part of the Top Hoodlum squad, which is an elite group that J.H. Goober started as part of the Top Hoodlum program. And what happened was in 1957, they had a big mafia conclave meeting in Appalachian, New York. [1:30] And they had about 60 members of the mafia throughout the country, all the bosses that attended this meeting. And it became publicized. The cops were there. They confiscated their identification, their wallets, the money, everything. And it got released into the news. This was a big story. [1:50] So what happened was J. Edgar Hoover at that time had been denying the existence of the mafia for a number of reasons. Probably because he didn’t want to get involved with all of the muck of trying to prosecute these gangland people because he knew that they had a lot of buffers between the bosses and the guys committing the murders. So he knew it was going to be difficult, and it would blemish their conviction record and rate. So he kind of stayed away from it, denied the existence of the mafia, And along comes this Appalachian Conclave meeting. It got released into the news, and everybody was up in arms about this. That’s when Hoover decided to start the Top Hoodland program, because there was absolutely no denial of what was going on here, that there was some sort of vast criminal organization that was highly organized, and he had to do something about it. So in 1957, my father became part of the Top Hoodlum program. [2:54] And in particular, the Top Hoodlum squad in New York City, which is really a hotbed of mafia criminal activity. You couldn’t get any more hotter than what they had. They had five mafia families alone in New York. And the first book was really about how my father confronted Carlo Gambino, how Carlo Gambino became one of his original subjects for him to study and to profile. [3:24] He was ordered to do that, and he was happy to do that. The book is really about him confronting face-to-face with Carlo Gambino, and then afterwards wiretapping him at the Golden Gate Hotel in Miami Beach, Florida. He was on the other side of a wall. From Gambino for six weeks. Gambino did not know he was on the other side of the wall wiretapping him with another agent. So that’s what the first book was about. And the second book is about really the backstory of my father’s life before he got into the FBI a little bit. Then his first years in the Bureau, when he was a part of the investigation of the Communist Party and the Workers’, Party and the few offices that he was in, like the Springfield, Illinois office, and also Cleveland. And then he became a part of the New York office. He was still investigating communist activities at the time. And then he became a part of the Top Woodland squad. And his milieu, his wheelhouse, became organized crime and the mafia. So that’s generally what has happened so far. The second book is being released this coming month, and it will We’ll have book two and book three talking about these sorts of things. [4:44] Interesting. Interesting. All right, guys, I’ll have a link to the old book down there in the show notes and look for that new book coming up and we’ll get back together. I’ll get back with Gary after the book comes out sometime and we’ll do another show. And we’re not going to talk about the mafia so much. We’re going to talk about these activities, which I think is interesting, of the FBI against the Social Workers Party and the Communist Party USA because they did a lot of work. When I was growing up, Gary, do you remember I Led Three Lives, the TV show about, his last name was Phil Brick. It was a weekly TV show about an undercover FBI agent who supposedly was working as a member of the Communist Party. He would go to these meetings and things like that. Do you remember that? I Led Three Lives. I do remember that. That show goes way, way back. What year was that show? Oh, that had to be 1953, 54. I had to be like 9, 10 years old, 55. I was 10 years old, so it probably may be 1955. I do remember the show. I think I’ve seen reruns of it. Yeah, I bet it’s on YouTube. I have to look that up for fun one of these days. [5:52] Issue Machine’s show back then, we will talk about this later on at another time as regards to the second book. Back in the 1950s, J. Edgar Hoover’s main enemy was the Communist Party. It wasn’t organized crime. That was his top focus. He wrote a book called Masters of Deceit. And people, I think everybody, they should have this book in public school system, but they don’t want to do that today. Today’s public school system, they try to inculcate youngsters in more social activities and social warriors and not learning about the perils of Marxism and communism. [6:33] Okay, today we’re going to talk about Nicola Gentile. Now, 1903, he was a Sicilian immigrant that came to the United States, and he found a lot of opportunity among the other Sicilian immigrants because he was a blackhander, if you will, when he first got here. He was a criminal who came over from Sicily, but he was able to move among all the different families, all the different cities, and settle disputes and help people get organized and do things like that. Gary, start telling us a little bit about what you remember about Nicola Gentile. First of all, I want to tell people that Nicola Gentile was an uber jovelace. He was jovelace on steroids. Somebody later on in his life, toward the end of his life, he wrote his memoirs down. This was in 1963. So what happened was he published his memoirs in Italy. He had a co-author, he had another journalist write these memoirs down in Sicilia. [7:36] These memoirs were then grabbed by the FBI and they were given to my father. My father had the papers written in Sicilian. And I remember as a boy in 1963, when this happened, my father was sitting at a table translating these memoirs with my grandmother. Now, my grandmother grew up not too far away. My grandmother and my grandfather grew up not too far away from Nicola Gentile. Nicola was born in the town of Siculiana. Try to say that, Gary. [8:14] I give. I said that one real fast. So he’s writing these, translating the memoirs with my Sicilian-speaking grandmother and grandfather. My grandfather spoke, my grandparents, my father spoke Sicilian as well, too. He grew up with that as a little boy. But my grandmother and my grandfather were helping him translate these papers. These are the FBI papers. This is a copy. This is a copy of the FBI photocopy after it got translated. And my father did write some notes here and there. You can see it’s fairly light. The print is fairly light on it. I do have some post-it notes or notations, comments on it. But this is about 185 pages that were translated. And the language is quite formal, I’ll read to you a little bit of the first page What Nicola Gentile wrote as he started off Before you get started there, was that book ever translated? Is that available here in English form like on Amazon as a book you can buy today? I know a lot of people are wondering, can I find that? [9:34] That’s a good question. I haven’t gone that far yet. Okay, all right. I don’t know. I’ll take a look. That is a good question. But this is the translation that my father and my grandparents did. And whether it came out that way in these books that are out now, I don’t know. There are some books that do talk about Nicola Jantili, but I don’t know if there are any English translation books. So this is how the first page of Nicola’s book opens. Siculiana, a small town of Sicily, did not, prior to 1900, offer any opportunity for work or secondary school education for the betterment of life of its youth. [10:22] The greater portion of whom in which there existed the disposition encouraged by the family while still young frequented the shop of an artisan where they struggled to learn a trade, but at the same time often neglecting school so that illiteracy reigned supreme. So that’s the sort of language that Nicola used in it. And it’s quite interesting. It’s a bit formal. He does jump around a bit from his activities from one place to another. He talks a lot about how he knew practically everybody in the mob at that time. He knew people like Luciano. He knew he interacted with Al Capone. He interacted with Vito Genovese. He interacted with Albert the Mad Hatter, Anastasia. These were all the big shots. I’m talking about in the 1920s through the 1930s and all the way after. If you remember that in the 1920s, the 1919 prohibition happened, okay? That’s what really blew up out of everything, the prestige, the money, and the power of the mafia. That’s how it grew because of prohibition. and they were able to bootleg liquor, and Nikola was indeed a part of this. [11:51] He traveled around a lot. Now, what was the deal with that? He was in New York. I think that was his base, and that’s where he got started, but he traveled to, I think, New Orleans, or did he come up from New Orleans? I can’t remember. He was in Kansas City. He was in Cleveland. He was in Pueblo, Colorado. He made some connections. There’s a really old, early family in Pueblo, Colorado. I’ve talked to a descendant of that family, and I’ve talked to another author that knew quite a little bit about it so he traveled around to these different families what was the story with that, For whatever reason, he was a robing ambassador and a mediator. Look, you’re talking about organized crime. You’re talking about the mafia. You’re talking about vicious people who had one thing and one thing only in mind. What was it? Duh, money. Money and power. Because of that, you’re going to have disputes. You’re going to have arguments. You’re going to have people being killed as a result of it. And Gentile was the sort of individual that, think of Nicola Gentile as a Vida Colleone. [12:59] Think of him as a godfather figure. Very wise, understanding how to mediate the disputes, realizing that, as everybody else did, that if we do not mediate these disputes, what will happen? We will be at each other’s throats like animals. Yeah. And our organization cannot exist. Our universe, our world cannot exist if this happens. So we must mediate these disputes. We must have an organizational structure. We must have a boss. We must have an underboss. We must have a consigliere, an advisor, who tells, who gives words of wisdom about how to proceed with business. Whether to take somebody out, how to proceed in such a fashion. So all of that was a part of the world. And it existed for many years, for many decades because of that. [14:01] Now, let me start off a little bit to tell you the beginnings of Nicola so we can lead up to how he got to this position. So he was born in 1884. He came to America at the age of 19 and went to New York. He travels to Kansas City to meet with his brother Vincent, who lived in Topeka, Kansas, not too far away from Kansas City. He started working out in the Santa Fe Railroad, and he became a linen peddler, and he did make some money doing that. He returned to Italy in 1909. He married in 1910 and had a daughter named Maria. Now, in his papers, you really don’t hear anything more about that happening. You don’t hear anything about his wife, children, nothing. And it isn’t until later on, at the very end of his memoirs, he talks about the women in his life. We’ll get to that later. But so what happened was he returns back from Italy, gets back to America, and he goes to Canada. Then he moves to San Francisco with his brother, and he continues to sell linen until 1914. And it isn’t until he was a year or two later, maybe about the age of 19, 20 or so, he starts getting involved with the Honor Society. [15:27] Now, he knows about the Honor Society from back in Sicily. He’s been well aware of it. He’s been involved with it. At the age of 15, he had been convicted of a crime, and he had been sentenced to jail at the age of 15. So he wasn’t new to the world of organized crime. He knew it from back in Sicily. It’s a very deep fabric of the world of Sicily at that time. Why is that? Because in Sicily, in those years, in the late 1800s, you had either what? You had a sort of a feudal system where people were working for these large landowners, and the landowners were absentee landowners, okay? They delegated authority to people underneath them, and the people working for their land and working on their land were really, for example, a lot of poverty happened because of it. So to bridge that sort of gap with poverty, the Mafia started, in other words, and they called it the Honor Society. These were men of honor. And Nicola Gentile describes it as the, let me see here. [16:39] He describes the honor society, originating many years ago in antiquity, and it gives the right to defend the honor of the weak and to respect human law. With these principles as its guide, it’s still operated within the mafia. So you understand that within the honor society, here’s the code that we must be civilized, even though we’re acting like animals. [17:08] We don’t want to act too much like animals but otherwise we will destroy, the golden goose so this is what they put in the back of their minds we must act in a civilized manner, so that was the understanding of how the outer society worked so he went to New York he went to Brooklyn, and at that time the mafia probably had 2,000 2,000 members of the mafia in New York at that time, between the five families. They call them Bocate families. So he joined the Outer Society in Pittsburgh. [17:49] And soon after, he was asked by Gregorio Conte, the head of the mob boss in Pittsburgh, to do a killing for him. Okay? Now, he doesn’t say whether this was an initiation right, because that’s what they usually did in the mafia. You had to kill somebody in order to be initiated into the mafia, become a member of it. So he was ordered to do a killing, and what happened was he confronted this individual in front of a restaurant. His brother shoots the victim in front of the restaurant. He runs away before Nikola, empties his gun into the guy. Paul runs away. Nicola’s standing there with his gun. People are yelling and screaming, oh my gosh, he did it. He killed this person. Paul is running down the street. He takes his firearm. He shoots it up in the air. [18:45] Scares the crowd away. Nicola runs away. He escapes from that scene. Now, Nicola really has never, throughout his mafia career, he’s never been arrested. It isn’t until later on in his life that he actually does get under the eye of the police and he becomes indicted and will get arrested. So that’s what happens to him later on. But later, during his life in the mob, he does not get arrested in any way, shape, or form. Although he got to Italy, when he goes back to Italy, he was under the scrutiny of the police there and he had been arrested. He gets out on bail, and he was accused of crimes there. So he was pretty slippery. But in terms of what we’re talking about, his mediation skills, little by little, he becomes this sort of individual that people look at as somebody that can mediate their problems and to tamper down the situation that can become very hot. And he became somebody that the other mobsters called, they called him Uncle Nick or Zio Nicola, Zio Cola, Uncle Cola. They saw him as a sort of a vunticular figure. [20:07] That could ameliorate these disputes and these situations that they were involved with. In Kansas City, our mob boss was Nick Savella for a long time, and I was looking over some wiretaps, and people were talking about him, and one of his underlings was talking to another underling about something he was going to take to him, and he called him Zeo the whole time. They always referred to him as Zeo, so that’s a term of honor and respect throughout the mafia world. [20:37] That’s right. As I keep saying, the mafia was able to exist for as long as it did because they had an organizational structure. They had a code of honor that kept them from not acting like wild animals too much. Too much. A lot of these people, you’ve met more than your share of criminals. Gary, you know how many of these people can be. Some of them can be very business-like. Some of them can be very vicious, vicious, sick people too. And the great scarpets of the world that would kill dozens of people. These were psychopaths. You had your whole range. You had your whole range of people. And the fascinating thing about Gentile was that he knew a lot of these individuals. You talked about the Kansas City, the Kansas City entity. Yes, Pueblo, Colorado did have its problems at that time. And somebody had been killed, the Pueblo, Colorado family, and that sort of spilled over into Kansas City. Kansas City was asking to mediate the situation, and it was Chile mediated the situation because of it. [21:57] Chantina became the boss of the Kansas City family. Now, he does not get into this in great depth about what he did in Kansas City at Boston, but it was a temporary thing. He was bopping around from Pittsburgh to Cleveland to Kansas City. He went to New York. He was in Boston. He was far away, San Francisco, Los Angeles. He was all over the place. And he was very well respected. He had a lot to do with what was going on in Chicago with Al Capone. Interestingly enough, Al Capone, at that time, when Gentile encountered him, his family, if you want to call it his crime family, had a lot of international entities in it. It wasn’t an Italian thing. He had a lot of different people from different ethnic backgrounds as a part of his organization. It wasn’t until Nicola comes around and the mafia bosses came around and told him, look, this is what the mafia is like. We’re not an international group here. [23:08] It’s strictly Italian. You want to be a part of it, you need to buy into this. Okay. And that’s indeed what he did, bought into the mafia, marginalize the people that were not Italians. Booted them out and or killed them sometimes and started his own mafia italian thing in chicago which became very very well known as as a bloody place to believe bloody bloody place to be because of the the killings that they had prior to him being a part of the mafia officially there were a tremendous amount of gangland killings as you know in chicago so he had a large part to and he He did keep a lot of those other ethnicities around as players, as people he could use, though. And on into Frank Nitti’s time and on up into current modern times, up into the 50s and 60s, they had several people that were on the periphery would be associates. But I guess he had more organization of Sicilians, it looks to me like, over the years. Yes, yes, he did. What happened eventually was, as Gary, the Castellamareci War erupted in the 1930s. That’s another hard one to say, Castellamareci. Castellamareci. I can say that, Castellamareci. [24:35] Try to say that real fast. So what happened, the Castellamareci War erupted. In June, the boss mazzeria was the boss of bosses. They called him the king. Was the boss of the Capetituticape, the boss of bosses, okay? [24:53] And Mazzaria was wielding a very heavy hand that a lot of the other bosses in the country did not like at that time. And in particular, Maranzano became his chief foe. And he was originally from the Castellammare area of Sicily, okay? and his henchmen, his crew, the men around him were from that area. So they had a big war with the children past Mazaria. They wanted to assume power. A lot of people were dying. They were dropping like flies, especially over in New York. And Nicola Gentile was one of the people that were trying to mediate this situation between Mazaria and Marazano. Originally, Nicola sided with Mazaria, but then the ties changed. In turn, everybody wanted Mazaria dead. All the other bosses wanted him dead, including Capone. Mazaria was eventually executed in, I believe it was 1931. [26:05] And so Salvatore Marzano assumes power, okay? The people that Mazaria had underneath him, And Marisano said, we need to get rid of these guys. So he wound up killing all of the mazzarela boys. So everybody was saying, look, I don’t see any end of this bloodshed. We don’t need this publicity, okay? We need to operate in the shadows, okay? And Carlo Gambino was an expert at doing that. So what happened was the war ended. Marisano took over. He kills the boys. But then after that Marzano, what happens power gets to his head and easily lies the crown of the king, Marzano eventually gets killed by the other bosses and it was Vito Genovese. [27:00] It was Vito Genovese that was ordered to do the hit on Marazano with his crew. And as a result of that, Gary, the other bosses said, look, we need more structure here. There’s too much bloodshed. We can’t have this going on forever and ever. So they created a commission. Now, they did have other commissions before. They did have general assemblies like that. And so they created a commission that included Lucky Luciano, included Al Capone. [27:35] Included Joe Profaggi, included Joe Bananas as part of the commission to settle down, settle things down. Now, I said that originally, when we started that, that they had an Appalachian conclave, right? They had about 60 bosses, 60, 80 bosses there at that conclave. That’s big. Believe it or not, while the big war was going on, Al Capone had a meeting on his dime in Boston, I believe. Guess who was there? I’m sorry, about 500. They had 500 mafia guys there. And there was no publicity about it. Not what happened later on in Appalachian, New York. So here you have, you imagine, 500 mob guys meeting at a hotel in Boston, and it wasn’t covered by the media at that time. But that’s part and parcel of what Nicola was involved with, some of the people he was involved with at that time. So what happens to him later on? What stirs him to write this book? [28:44] What happened was, toward the latter part of his life, he starts to talk about a couple of women that he was involved with. He talks about, I will put all the paperwork so you can actually hear the words that he talks about. He talks about how he met this woman named Maria. [29:08] He meets this woman named Maria, and he really captures his imagination. He doesn’t talk about that he had been married, that he also had a child, too. He had a child named Maria. So he meets this woman named Maria, and she’s really stricken with him. And to the point where she tells him that she’s so smitten with him that I’m going to read what, He tried to pose as a jewelry salesman so that he could meet her. He says, I suspected that you weren’t a jewelry salesman. She says to him, she said, you did. She whispered in my ear, lightly touching my earlobe with her lips. She used to finish by kissing me on the mouth wild with love. There were moments of passion that our bodies would entwine, palpitating with love, and which would later be abandoned with languid reproves. So that’s the sort of language he used. And at one point, he talks about how he liked going to her apartment to visit her when he was feeling edgy. [30:28] You’re a mobster. You feel a little bit edgy. You’re always looking over your shoulder, right? So he was happy to go to her apartment to calm down, and she would talk to him. And she says, Mary was happy to see me. She used to tell me, Nick, that’s how she called me, you are an extraordinary man. You don’t know with what fear and respect those Boers, the Shacatani, speaker view. The Shacatani were the people of Sciacca, Sicily, that were mobsters that he associated with. It says, your name impresses everyone. Any woman alive brought to live among this rabble would be happy to be your co-worker, to wear men’s clothes, and at the necessary time of the occasion should present itself, to embrace a Tommy gun and die in your arm. [31:26] So that’s the sort of romantic verbiage that they used at the time. So what happened, too, was he sees her, then eventually he meets another woman named Dorothy. [31:41] She professes herself to be Irish to begin with, but then he finds out later as she tells him, I’m actually not Irish. I come from a Sicilian family. But she just wanted to impress him somehow to get his eyes. She was very attracted to him, to this woman, Dorothy. What happened was they have a love affair with each other, and Nikola, this is to the very end of his story here, Nikola had been involved with a gambling house in New York, and the gambling house was starting to go underwater. He needed money, so it was proposed to him by another mobster by the name of Jacono to do some narcotic trafficking down in Texas and Louisiana. [32:31] He gets the permission to do so from his bosses. Look, Nicola was still a roving asset, and he had to get permission to do things so that he could acquire enough money for investments, so he can give them money back, so he gets permission to do this. He starts getting involved with the drug trafficking trade in Texas and Louisiana, and he sees that he’s being tailed a lot. He doesn’t understand why. He says, out of nowhere, the police would show up. How did they find out? At the same time, he was trying to contact Dorothy. Before he left, Dorothy asked him. [33:11] Will I be seeing you much? She said, I don’t know. I could be gone six months or a year. She says that she’s so heartbroken about this. And he leaves and he gets involved with the drug trade. And he’s asking these questions about how is it that the cops are showing up at these different places where we are trying to transact business? What happens was he tried to contact Dorothy at different places where she said that she could be contacted. She didn’t get back to him. So he puts two and two together. He thinks that he believes that Dorothy was actually a treasury agent. She had been spying on him, that she was the Mata Hari, so to speak, and was feeding the information to the feds. to where he was. So what happened was they indicted him, got out on bail on $18,000 bail, and he was urged to be a stowaway to get to Italy. So he stows away on a ship, gets back to Italy. And interestingly enough, Gary. [34:23] He starts at World War II erupts, and he becomes an asset to the Allies in Sicily. He’s given them intelligence about what’s happening in Sicily with the mafia in Sicily. And the mafia in Sicily did not want to have anything to do with Mussolini. Mussolini was trying to bag on them big time. He’s trying to shut them down. And Nicola helped the Allies with intelligence reports on what was going on in Sicily. And that was a big part of what he was doing. And then later on, it wasn’t until 1963 or so, and he was still getting involved. He was still getting involved with the mafia at that time, doing criminal activities. But he wasn’t welcomed as much as he had been before. But he was still involved with them. What happened was the 60s came around, and he started writing his memoirs. He was an older man, and he started writing these things down on paper. [35:28] Which is what a mafia member does not do. You do not speak a word, let alone try to write it on paper. Otherwise, it’s a penalty of death. So he wrote all of these memoirs down in 1963. It got published that he was sentenced to death. But one of the mafia families in Sicily refused to do it. They refused to do it because he had a lot of respect. Members of the mafia in the U.S. And also in Sicily respected Gintilian very much because he had this godfather air about him. He had the Vita Corleone air about him. I will talk to you, and I will come up with a solution for you. Everybody’s calmed down by that. They’re not so excited and bloodthirsty when they hear that. They sense him to death. The mafia family in Sicily refused to carry out the hit. The book was published, and he lived the rest of his life in peace. He died peacefully as an old man in Sicily in 1970. Wow, 1970. That’s a hell of a story. That is a hell of a story, man. [36:44] I’m telling you you can make a movie out of this man’s life oh yeah literally the way he was jumping around from one place to the other he was really a maverick rogue sort of individual who is who did not have a higher education about him but was extremely intelligent and was able to use this and that’s what that’s why they respected him a lot of these individuals that he dealt with were boars and uneducated individuals to begin with. Many of them were highly intelligent. And as my dad always told me, his son, these individuals, especially the mob bosses, they could have been tycoons of finance. They could have been industrial tycoons, wizards of finance and economics and Wall Street if they had wanted to, but they did not want to. So they choose a life of crime. [37:40] Interesting. I’ll tell you what, that’s a hell of a story, Gary. That is a really cool story. I’d always wanted to do this guy’s story, mainly because I knew of his Kansas City connection. I talked to our local FBI agent here that has chronicled a lot of these things, got a book out there about those early days, and he’s excited. He’s looking forward to listening to this. So I really appreciate you coming on the show. Gary Clemente, GP Clemente. His father was Peter Clemente, the first Sicilian-born member of the FBI Top Hoodlum Squad. And Gary has been translating his works, is what he did. He wrote down a lot of stuff, and Gary’s been translating. He’s putting it down to a series of books. It’s called, let’s see, it is Untold Mafia Tales from the FBI Top Hoodlum Squad, I believe. I think I can read that on your event there. He does speaking events, too. If you’re back east, you’re from New York City area. Where are you from? Where do you speak at? I originally grew up in New Jersey, not too far from one of the Sopranos guys. [38:47] In New Jersey, my father was working at the New York office at that time and decided to buy a home in the suburbs of New York, not too far away from New York City. So that’s where I grew up. On the right side of the track. If somebody wants to get a hold of you to do a speaking engagement, though, how do they find you? They can get a hold of me at my email, gpclementibooks, gpclementibooks, at gmail.com. And I’m also on X, gpclementi16, I’m also on X. And the book is available on Amazon. You can pick it up there, and it’s doing quite well. I’m looking forward to the next one coming out next month. Yeah, I bet you’re looking forward to that. Yeah, and if you get his book, be sure and give him a review. Give him a good review on whatever review you want to give, but give him a good review. Please. [39:48] Because it helps these guys a lot to get a good review. More people will buy their book. And we, guys, we all want to encourage these mob historians. And Gary has done a real great job at chronicling the history, not just the blood and guts. We all like the blood and guts stories and the murder stories, but the entire history. You were talking about them being out in Pueblo, Colorado, and I just couldn’t figure that out. I just talked to a woman whose ancestors were in Pueblo, Colorado, connected to the mob out there. And she said that what it is, there was lead mines out there, and a lot of Sicilians were miners, and they went to that southern Colorado area to work in the mines. And I know we have a large group of Sicilian populations in southwest Missouri where there were strip mines down there for coal. And it’s a huge family of them down there. And so it’s, you know, where the work was is where people went to, and that’s how they ended up spread around the country. [40:45] That’s right. There were many Sicilians in San Francisco, Louisiana. Believe it or not, when Sicilians were in Louisiana when they first immigrated to Louisiana, there were several of them that had been home because they were looked upon as less than human. And the locals did not want them infiltrating their population. So it didn’t just happen to African-Americans, it also happened to Sicilians. Yeah, I’ve read about that story. So it’s an immigrant experience. Any group of immigrants that comes to the United States at first. [41:25] You know, the greater population, the English and the Irish and the Germans already have the good jobs and they keep them pushed out. And they have a different language, totally different language. And everybody else is speaking English. And so it’s really hard for an immigrant population to move in. That’s why they have to start businesses. And along with them, they brought the mafia. They had brought this tradition of the mafia that is shadow government, if you will, for them. Well, that’s true. And I must add that even though I talk a lot about the mafia and the world of the mafia, the Cosa Nostra, that my father was involved with, My father would be the first to tell you he was not proud of the criminal association and organization that these people started. He was not proud of it in any way. In fact, if you read my first book, you will read the part about how my father confronted Carlo Gambino and told him to his face that he was not proud of what Gambino and his associates were doing. And the bad name that they were bringing upon other Italian and Sicilians that had come to this country, like my grandparents, that work hard and made something of themselves. It’s not something to be proud of. Fascinating, interesting, but it’s not something that I’m certainly not proud of either. But pretty amazing, considering these people could have done something more honest. [42:51] But they chose not to. That’s a whole other story and movie to talk about. Yeah, it is. Gary Clemente, I really appreciate you coming on the show. Thanks so much. You’re welcome. Thank you, Gary. Great being here. Gary to Gary. Gary to Gary, yeah. You know, they don’t name Gary anymore. Gary, little kids, Gary anymore. That was back right after the war in the early 50s. Everybody was named Gary. I had three Garys, I think, in my class. I tell you, I went to this movie with my grandkids. It’s called Zootopia. And they had a character in there called Gary the Snake. [43:27] So that’s what we’ve devolved down to, We’re nothing but snakes, Gary Guys, I really appreciate y’all tuning in And don’t forget to like and subscribe And down in the show notes, I’m going to have links to this stuff And I’ve got links to some of the stuff that I sell My books and DVDs If you want to rent them, I’ve got a link to that You can rent my DVDs for $1.99 So thanks a lot, guys. Okay, Gary, thank you. Hey, thank you, Gary. Thank you very much. Really appreciate that you’re having me on. Really enjoy it. Anything I can do for you, please let me know. Anything I can do. You know that I’ve got your endorsement on the back of the book, right? I didn’t remember. I do so much sometimes, Gary, that I forget all what I do good. Yeah, I’ve got your endorsement on the back of the book. I gave you a good endorsement. All right. The second book, the one that’s coming out, the one that’s coming out, we’ll have the same thing on there. You got some author blurbs? You got enough author blurbs on there? Yeah, yeah. Your endorsement will be on the back of the next book, too. Okay, all right, all right. All right, Gary. Thanks a lot, my friend. Hey, thank you, buddy. Anything in Kansas City. When the other book comes out, I’ll let you know. Yeah, let me know. We’ll do that show here in a couple of months. Okay? Hey, thank you very much. Appreciate it. All right, all right. Stay safe. Okay, buddy. Take care. Bye-bye.

Transcribed - Published: 30 March 2026

In this episode, Gary Jenkins, retired intelligence detective sits down with veteran true crime authors Frank Gerardot and Burl Barer to examine their book Where Murder Lies, a case that intersects Russian organized crime, Italian mob connections, and a troubling claim of wrongful conviction. At the center of the story is Jimmy Kitlas, a young man who struggled with learning disabilities and instability after aging out of a rehabilitation facility in Los Angeles. Facing homelessness and limited options, he gravitated toward individuals connected to the Russian mob, seeking protection and belonging. Instead, he was drawn into criminal schemes—including check fraud and drug trafficking—engineered by experienced mob figures who exploited his vulnerabilities. Frank and Burl provide historical context on the rise of Russian organized crime in the United States, particularly in neighborhoods like Brighton Beach. Unlike the rigid hierarchy of traditional Mafia families, these groups often operated through looser networks, engaging in lucrative scams such as gas tax fraud alongside Italian crime figures. The authors explain how these alliances blurred lines between ethnic crime groups and created new power structures within the American underworld. The discussion then shifts to the murder that reshaped Jimmy’s life. What began as manipulation and grooming evolved into betrayal, jealousy, and ultimately violence. The authors detail how Jimmy’s arrest followed a carefully orchestrated narrative that shifted blame onto him while shielding more powerful figures. Through examination of court records and transcripts, Gerardot and Barer argue that investigative failures and prosecutorial decisions compounded the injustice. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 23 March 2026

In this episode, Gary Jenkins, retired intelligence detective, sits down with veteran true crime authors Frank Gerardot and Burl Barer to examine their book Where Murder Lies, a case that intersects Russian organized crime, Italian mob connections, and a troubling claim of wrongful conviction. At the center of the story is Jimmy Kitlas, a young man who struggled with learning disabilities and instability after aging out of a rehabilitation facility in Los Angeles. Facing homelessness and limited options, he gravitated toward individuals connected to the Russian mob, seeking protection and belonging. Instead, he was drawn into criminal schemes—including check fraud and drug trafficking—engineered by experienced mob figures who exploited his vulnerabilities. Frank and Burl provide historical context on the rise of Russian organized crime in the United States, particularly in neighborhoods like Brighton Beach. Unlike the rigid hierarchy of traditional Mafia families, these groups often operated through looser networks, engaging in lucrative scams such as gas tax fraud alongside Italian crime figures. The authors explain how these alliances blurred lines between ethnic crime groups and created new power structures within the American underworld. The discussion then shifts to the murder that reshaped Jimmy’s life. What began as manipulation and grooming evolved into betrayal, jealousy, and ultimately violence. The authors detail how Jimmy’s arrest followed a carefully orchestrated narrative that shifted blame onto him while shielding more powerful figures. Through examination of court records and transcripts, Gerardot and Barer argue that investigative failures and prosecutorial decisions compounded the injustice. 0:02 Introduction and Guests 0:47 Wrongful Conviction Discussion 4:26 Kelly Lee’s Influence 6:33 Russian Mob Background 12:28 Jimmy Kitlas’ Journey 18:47 Investigative Challenges 22:58 The Murder Plot 26:45 Russian Mob Operations 28:29 Geographic Control in LA 31:29 Trust and Collaboration 35:03 Daniel Patterson’s Role 37:10 Conclusion and Book Promotions Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. [0:00] Hey, all you wiretappers, good to be back here in the studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective, and I have two guests today. Frank Girdo. Is that correct, Frank? Girdo? That’s pretty good. Gerardot. I’ll take it. Gerardot. Gerardot. Just don’t pronounce a T at the end, right? Yes, sir. [0:24] And Burl Barer. Is it Barer, Burl? Yep, that’s close enough for government work. Joe’s enough for government work. That’s the story of my life, as everybody knows. I like to get it close. And we never let the real facts get in the way of a good story either. So let’s just get going here. We like to tell stories on this channel. That’s what my guys like is stories. [0:44] Stories about the Russian mob and maybe a little bit about the Italian mob. And we also got a story about a wrongful conviction, which is a kind of a hot topic right now. We’re seeing a lot of different things in these true crime shows about wrongful convictions. And there’s been, I think a lot of them have been uncovered. In the last few years because people started paying attention to that a little more than they used to. When I was a policeman, they didn’t pay any attention. Never heard of a wrongful conviction. I really congratulate you investigators and authors and true crime diggers out there that see these things and then go take a look at them because they need to be taken and given a look at. So Burl Baer is an Edgar winning author and two-time Anthony Ward nominee. He’s got a lot of experience in reporting. I see you’ve been in the Hollywood Reporter, even the London Sunday Telegraph, New York Times, USA Today. [1:38] You’ve got, I believe you’ve got some other, what else do you do, Burrell? I watch a lot of TV, watch a lot of movies. What kind of shows have you been on? You’ve done other investigations here. Yeah. I did almost, Frank and I have done most of those shows. Deadly Women, Deadly Sins, Behind Mansion Walls, you know, all. [1:57] Do you name them and claim them? We’ve probably been on them. All right. And Frank Gerardot, you’re a journalist, radio host. You’ve authored several true crime nonfiction books, co-author with Burl on A Taste for Murder, Betrayal in Blue. And you did one with somebody else named Byrne. Oh, that was about John Orr. And I read that book. Actually, I read that book, that John Orr. That was a hell of a story, man. That was a hell of a story. Several years ago. So that’s a, it’s a crazy thing. And that, that, that book really tells the story of John Orr through his daughter’s perspective. Ah, okay. And, and I don’t remember which one I read. I read one. I listened to a podcast about the whole thing all the way through guys. That was the LA County was an LA County fireman, fire investigator who was sat in his own fire all up and down in California. Oh yeah. He would go up North. He was in Southern California. He would go up north to a fire conference and he’d set fires on the way back. It was crazy, craziest story I ever read. And after he got arrested, the number of arson fires in California declined by 70%. I’ll be darned. I’ll be darned. He set brush fires, just all kinds of fires. It was crazy. Name of that book is Burn, Guys, if you’re interested in that by Frank Cardo. That’s the French pronunciation. Yes, sir. Yes. [3:18] So these two guys, they have their publicist, God Hold Me, and they introduced me to this book, Where Murder Lies. It is a fascinating look, and they did a real great examination of the Russian mob, a little connection to the Italian mob in New York City as part of this investigation into really a wrongful conviction case, a wrongful conviction of a kid who was, I guess we don’t use the word retarded anymore. He was mentally disabled and retarded in some manner. I’m not sure exactly how to describe that anymore. How would you guys describe him? So, yeah, I think he’s differently abled. We’ll say that. He’s actually a pretty smart guy. He speaks a lot of languages. He read this book in a night. [4:01] He just, I think more of his problem is that he’s maybe learning. He had learning difficulties. And as you’ll see when we get into the book here, he had a lot of physical and emotional trauma growing up. Okay. Jimmy Kittlis was his name. Yes. And a woman named… Kelly Lee. [4:22] A woman named Kelly Lee got you guys interested in this story. It’s a wrongful conviction story that strays into this mob ties. Who was she? Now, who was Kelly Lee? [4:32] I could tell you about Kelly Lee. She was one of the first people I met when I came to Los Angeles in November of 2003. Three, she was doing intake at Teshuvah, which is a Jewish community kind of rehab for people with all-matter recovery issues. I’d just been through a bad patch, et cetera. He needed some help. She did my intake. Wound up becoming friends with her and her husband. And a few years later, we’re having dinner together. She says, oh, Pearl, you’re a true crime writer. I go, duh, yeah. And she pulls out a handful of court transcripts that are difficult to get nowadays. Thank you. Says, take a look at this. She was, at the time this murder took place, what I would term an unlicensed pharmaceutical supplier on the streets of West Hollywood. Correctly. Gotcha. Marijuana, primarily. Yeah. And she had six arrests for selling pot, which now would probably get her a community service award here. Yeah. Times were different. And when Jimmy Kittlis ages out of the facilities or whatever down in Lake Elsinore. When he turns 18, they just put him on a bus with a ticket to West Hollywood. Goodbye. [5:49] And he gets off. He meets her. She’s a very compassionate person. She can see that this kid is really childlike. Babe in the woods or babe on the street, he’s really going to get taken advantage of. She takes him under her wing like a surrogate mom and tries to tell him and teach him how to survive on the street. And then she said, he’s like a child. Could be really eager to please, super polite, has the intentions man of a goldfish. Oh, look, there’s a castle. Oh, look, there’s a castle. It’d be very easily used. [6:28] It had a lot of sexual energy. He needed a girlfriend. He got one and got her pregnant. And she really tried to help these kids, But she couldn’t be with him 24-7 And she certainly raised her eyebrows When she saw who was spending a lot of time With this couple And that was a well-known fellow In the Russian mob, Yeah, I read that So let’s talk a little bit about the Russian mob So you guys really went in the background When they first came to Brighton Beach Tell the guys a little bit about that background. [7:02] Yeah, sure. As the Soviet Union began to crumble, a lot of Russian Jews found their way to New York, and they found their way to Brighton Beach. And they set up a sort of black market trading system among themselves and within the community with all the sort of standard features of mafia, right? Protection, extortion, sometimes murder, certainly dealing in black market stuff like drugs. [7:32] Clubs, prostitution, just about every kind of crime you can think of happening in a neighborhood that’s protected by a mafia. These guys were controlling in this neighborhood of Brooklyn called Brighton Beach. What I thought was interesting, and readers will probably find interesting too, is that there’s not a real setup like a commission or families. The Russian mob really operates more like Ronin. There’s guys that just independent operators and build up their business based on their relationships and how many people they can pull into a scheme. What we also found is that these guys were pretty adaptable and they picked up on a scam that the Lucchesis and the Gambinos were operating. And that was to get gas, steal it, take it from places where it wasn’t really tracked and put it into gas stations, sell it for maybe a penny less than the guy across the street, but capture the tax, the federal excise tax money and pocket it. And this was a multi-million dollar scheme And to the fine-tuning of it The Russian mob, Worked with guys like Michael Francesi To really extract as much as they could from it One of the guys in our book. [9:00] Meyer Ida, who was in Brighton Beach and operating there, came to Los Angeles in the mid-90s and started up the gas tax scheme. But the feds were pretty wise to it at that point, and he got caught up in the sting. Interesting. If I remember right, some of them were, they couldn’t steal it, but they would set up companies, shell companies, and then buy gas and then sell it a little bit cheaper. And it was up to them to collect the tax and then pay the state. And they do this for a certain period of time. And then they just declare file bankruptcy or just walk away from that shell company and create another little LLC and do the same thing. So just like run after you just couldn’t catch up. You bust out of one and move on to the next one. And that’s what they and you could they change the laws for gasoline purchase changed as a result because you could just go buy it. You can make up a company today, buy it tomorrow, sell it on Thursday, collect the tax on Friday, and bail out on Saturday and start all over again next week. Wow. Wow. There’s a scam. There’s a mob that’s willing to take advantage of a loophole like that. It’s crazy. So they moved out to LA. What other kind of scams? Go ahead. Go ahead, Brett. I was going to say that the Russians were so good at this type of scam, far ahead mentally of the American Mafia. [10:29] They were the best people they ever worked with. They were geniuses. They knew how to do this unlike any other. And in fact, the gas tax scam, the biggest moneymaker for the Russian mob and eventually the American mafia than any other form of income, billions of dollars. Interesting also is that if the former Soviet Union, should probably know, they factor in the Russian mob in their economy. I believe the last figure was 63% of the GNP of Russia was crime. They actually give a figure for it. Here we go. In America, this percentage of our federal income is from crime, but in Russia, they do. 63%. I don’t know what it is in America, But we talked to this Stan, who’s never going to pronounce his last name. And he had been in the Russian mob ever since he was a kid, raised in it. [11:32] And so that’s just what we were brought up with. We didn’t think there was anything unusual. If you were a girl, you were going to be a sex worker. They were respectable. If you were a guy, you were going to do this. And it was never as bad or as evil as the Americans said it was. It was always, the Russians are coming, the Russians are coming. coming. It’s so scary. I noticed you had a chapter titled Glassnose Gangsters. [12:00] I thought that was a pretty tricky title. I also read once that in Russia, they were so used to dealing with corrupt officials and running different scams that were in and around governmental agencies, like the tax collecting thing. They were so used to that, that they really refined this to a fine point than Americans could, because we’re not so used to dealing with corrupt officials. We have some, but not like Russia. Russia was an art in Russia. [12:28] Yeah, and they just took the template and brought it right over here and started earning pretty quickly. So now, how does Jimmy Kittlis, he’s a street kid. He’s one of these, what I call throwaway kids. We have this group of kids on the streets that are 18, 19, 20, use drugs. And lots of times these older men who are gay want to pay him for sex or bring him in and take care of him. Was he one of those kids? Did he get into that kind of a lifestyle? [13:02] He’s a homeless kid. He’s a runaway. And the place that he goes to, Hollywood and West Hollywood, is full of people that want to exploit young boys. Yeah. The lifestyle that he got into, though, was I think he recognized that there would be, people there who were stronger than him and smarter than him and want to take advantage of him. And so he sought out ways to hook up with mobsters because he figured that if he was connected, that would protect him from some of the bad stuff that might happen, especially like sexual exploitation. [13:41] When he goes into a homeless shelter, he peripherally knows about Mark. He asks around about Mark, who’s a Russian mobster. And the homeless shelter introduces them and says, oh, hey, yeah, Jimmy here would like to do some work with you. And so he falls into doing work with Mark and let the scamming begin, as they say. Interesting. Yeah. I read the book how he was, he had such a facility to learn language that he learned Russian pretty quick. And he had other languages. Just one of those people that just could start picking that up. Me work like hell, and I can’t have one conversation, but somebody like that, they just pick it up. I understand he picked up Russian pretty quick, too. Very quickly, and to this day, speaks it pretty well. And that got him some cachet. [14:30] But that only goes so far because, Gary, these guys that come in at a low level and aren’t Russian are really just mules. And that’s really what Jimmy was. He was a mule. Mark’s specialty was Czech forgery. and check washing. And he taught Jimmy how to take envelopes and get checks out of them, change who the check was written to or the amount that the check was drawn for, and go to various banks and cash those checks. And Mark was a pro at it. He had equipment to do it. He knew how the scam worked. He knew that you don’t go to the same bank three days in a row. You go to a couple of different banks and that’s how they got by day to day. [15:18] Interesting. Yeah, I worked one of those little scams once, a little group of people that were doing that. They could have a process that can wash some of the ink off of a check and then put and change the amount and those kinds of things. They’d work, they’d go to grocery stores on paydays. People used to take their grocery, their checks to put grocery stores on paydays plus banks. So it’s a pretty good moneymaker that needs little guys like this to go out and cash the checks while the bad guy sits back and provides the checks and takes most of the money. So it’s interesting. Yeah. And that’s exactly what Jimmy was, the little guy that cashed the check. [15:57] I want to interject something here. Now, Mark was, as Jimmy said, he looked like a Russian mobster. He was a Russian mobster. However, what Jimmy didn’t realize is that the whole family, or most of the family, was involved. Mark’s uncle, Meyer ITF, also known as Mike, was a very prominent figure in the Russian mob in Los Angeles. The fans were very aware of him. He was, shall we say, a big shot. He was the godfather of Plumber Park here. He was the guy. Jimmy didn’t know that. He just knew about Mark. As you know in the book, sooner or later it becomes a situation involving a fortune in gold and smuggled MDMA that puts Meyer in federal custody. Meyer wants out of federal custody. Mark not only is a Russian mobster doing bank fraud, he’s also an FBI informant and a DEA informant and an informant of the Pasadena Police Department. [17:07] Frank says, according to the menu at a Chinese restaurant, going from column A to column B, how do I get my uncle out of prison? Solve a murder. Oh, what’s the easiest way to solve a murder? Plan it. Set it up. Blame it on someone, like maybe Jimmy. Final result, I’ll tell you, Meyer got out of prison. Jimmy went to prison. [17:36] Wow, that’s a hell of a story. Frank can give me more insight on that process, but that’s the short form on how this all winds up fitting together. Yeah, and you guys, when you went back, you had to go back. Could you be able to pull she had transcripts from the court so you could find out who testified were able to get any more information police department’s notorious for not allowing reports to go out i can’t even get them out of my own but and i bet it was really bad on that how did how’d you go about that how’d you start digging into this and get your first clues that you can tell you about trying to talk to the items about this yeah yeah so it’s like an onion i i look at it like that and we had early on kelly shared with us some of the trial transcripts so that’s pretty good yeah there’s a lot of information in there and it and within the trial transcripts there’s names and and dates and so we started picking at it and early on you know we couldn’t get cooperation from any of [18:40] the mobsters yeah we didn’t get cooperation from the fbi or the dea We were able to do some digging. [18:48] And I think the digging led to a congressional hearing on the Russian mob back in the early 90s. And Meyer Itev’s name pops up in that hearing. So from there, I started digging through federal court files using PACER and came across all kinds of court documents involving Mike and then his nephew for various scams they were involved in. [19:21] And then taking those court documents and continuing to research and talk to people and figure it out, we were able to lay it all out. It took us six years to do this, but lay out a narrative of who’s Mike, who’s Mark, who are they involved with, and what kind of things were they operating when Jimmy got involved. And where was everybody when this murder took place? And what we found out was that Mike was in federal custody and had been charged with involvement in a scheme to steal gold from a place in Massachusetts. And how the scheme worked is Mike and his buddy posed as government scientists who were building a nuclear reactor facility in a run-down apartment in Pasadena, California. And they were able to put in purchase orders for the gold and have it delivered to this apartment. And only when one of them misspelled sergeant on the P.O. And sent a fake check did the government catch on and arrest him. [20:37] When they brought him in and charged him with this, the first thing that these guys wanted to do was figure out how they could get out of it. They hooked up with a guy in Hollywood who was involved in a scheme. Yeah. To dissuade a reporter from writing about the actor Steven Seagal. And this guy, his name is Alex Proctor, went to Meijer and another man in our book, Daniel Patterson, and said, listen, can you help me? I need to knock off this reporter. [21:12] Daniel, as you’ll see from reading our book, is a pretty well-connected guy. He’s done some pretty interesting stuff, but murder was the limit of what he would do for anybody. He began to peel back some of the layers of that onion for authorities in that case. And that led to Meyer being in custody. And that was the catalyst for Mark and his other uncle, Gary, to try to figure out how can we get him out? And they believed that the government would let Meyer out of custody if they could inform on a big enough crime. Big enough crime probably wouldn’t be a burglary or a low-level assault or a battery. It had to be something significant. And then this murder happens. Wow. How did they choose this victim? I don’t know necessarily that they chose him, but this guy lived in the neighborhood where Mark and Jimmy hung out, and they essentially manipulated him into believing he was going to have sex with Jimmy’s girlfriend. And then manipulated Jimmy into thinking that, hey, this guy’s going to have sex with your girlfriend. Aren’t you upset by that? Doesn’t that piss you off? Don’t you think you should be a man and do something about it? Yeah. [22:39] Hormones, jealousy, rage, greed. It’s like there’s everything like comes together in this one moment. And we end up with this guy, Alex, who’s a school teacher, just ends up dying. [22:55] So they got motive and means and opportunity. They can manipulate Jimmy into providing all those for the investigated officers. Yep. Yeah. Wow. And, you know, and what, and what really the thing that really, I think, so there’s this event that happens and there’s a, there’s like part of this, there’s a locked door mystery that investigators encounter. But the other part of it is how after the crime, Jimmy was arrested. [23:27] Manipulated into going to a hotel as a hideout that was arranged for him by Mark and Gary Iteve. And as soon as Jimmy’s in the hotel, they park themselves outside and guide the police to the hideout where they arrest Jimmy and his girlfriend. I think I read that initially, after the school teacher was dead, they got in, was it Pasadena? One of the police departments got an anonymous call giving up the body, where it was, the murder, and the suspect. Only one anonymous call. And then they, and then, oh, my God, this was heinous. Let’s mention that locked door. Let’s mention this locked door. This was heinous, heinous. When the police get to the scene of the crime, and they noticed that the apartment does not show any forced entry. Living room, everything, it’s fine. Get to the bedroom, however. The door had been locked from the inside. Jimmy said when he left, he locked the bedroom door from the inside. This is now after the fact. Someone shows up and tries to get in. They can’t because the door’s locked. They want to get in real fast. And they finally get in, practically ripped the doorknob off to get in. [24:50] At the same time, let’s assume it might be the same person, Mark ITM uses the dead man’s telephone to call his lawyer to say, I want to report a murder that we could use to get my uncle out of prison. [25:07] Using the dead guy’s phone. Then after they arrange that, he cuts the wires and leaves. Also wiping the door, the doorknob clean. His fingerprints are in there because he acknowledges he was in the bedroom earlier when Jimmy put the unconscious, still-breathing fellow on the bed. [25:29] He leaves. Mark left, went out and told the girl. Jimmy killed the guy. But when he left, the guy was alive, breathing on the bed. He says, come down after in a minute. So then he tells the girl, we got to go because we’re going to get in trouble with the cops. What are we going to do? So it was a real mess. So to say, who killed this guy? Jimmy had to take full responsibility because he confessed to protect his girlfriend. Also, he felt bad about putting the guy to headlock and throw the old drunk guy to the ground anyway. But then again, how did Mark make a phone call to his lawyer and the dead man’s phone after all that happened? And after the doors ripped open in the apartment to the bedroom. Did he find the guy already dead? Or did he have to help finish the process? Legally, he was found not guilty. Mark was. Just like OJ was. Because did OJ do it? Did OJ not do it? Did he cover for his son? Whatever. But legally, he was not guilty. Same thing with Mark. Not guilty. Jimmy, guilty. Whether we killed him or not. [26:45] We can’t say. We weren’t there. Crazy. Crazy, isn’t it? [26:52] What other kinds of things was this crime family, this Russian mob family? It’s like a family. I’ve read about these. They’ll have that one strong man, and then you’ll have a group that kind of emanates out from that, but yet they’re not part of some larger group. They stand on their own. And so what else, what other kind of crimes were they involved in? Was this talking about MMDA being smuggled into those that’s a party? Rave kind of clubs yeah they one of the things that they did was make a counterfeit viagra one of the guys had a uh an idea to he bought some viagra and he had a plan to set up pharmacies where he could like order viagra through the pharmacy and like with the gas tax right don’t pay anybody have the viagra and sell it and then one of the other guys said that’s a waste of time I got a pill press. Just all we got to do is get the chemicals or some chemicals and put them together and press a bunch of Viagra pills and then we can sell thousands instead of tens. [27:54] And then the gold scheme, which we mentioned, and the MA, the list goes on and on. And within the community of the Russian diaspora, extortion, loan sharking, gambling, prostitution, all those means of making money were on the table and being used. They were familiar with the casinos here in LA, familiar with the how to operate prostitution rings and advertise the services. Very sophisticated group of guys. [28:29] Did they have a geographic area in which they were kind of like the ruling group? [28:35] So that’s the funny thing about LA. And we talk about this a little bit in the book, that LA’s never really had like a mob family. There’s no five families here. If you go back to the 1940s and 50s, there was a guy named Mickey Cohen, who was a mobster here in LA and with help started the casinos in Vegas. But there’s no turf here In LA, if you’re going to set up an operation You’ve got to find a way to work with some of the other mobs In Los Angeles, the Mexican mafia is very prominent And their operation is run out of the jails That’s where their leadership is in the jail and prison system And the soldiers are on the street And that’s where the drugs and prostitution are distributed at street level, operated from the jails. Guys like Meyer or people operating within those turfs, they got to work with the Mexican mob to make sure that they’re not crossing lines. And we chronicle some of that, especially with the MDMA smuggling in the book. [29:44] Interesting. Wow. Yeah. LA’s not really had that, like you said, that five families each has a geographic territory or even had one family, a guy named Jack Dragna, but it was really, it was open. LA was open city. We had a guy from Kansas City went out there in the 50s and fell in with some people out there. And, of course, from Tony Splatro and that Jimmy Fradiano, Jimmy Fradiano, these people from Chicago had some action going down in L.A., but no one mob family controlled L.A. And it’s spread out that you’ve got these neighborhoods over the place that I just wonder if they’re like a Brighton Beach kind of a place that where a lot of Russians had settled in. That was their neighborhood, at least where they did. They all live in one neighborhood. So, yeah, West Hollywood has a Russian enclave. And then there’s a park there called Plummer Park. That’s a gathering place for Russians in the neighborhood to get together and play chess and talk about what’s going on. I live in a neighborhood that has its own little enclave of Armenian mobsters. And their hangout is a donut shop. Yes, I’ve seen that here I have I was at a Starbucks up by the airport And I see these guys all ganged up together And they look like. [31:03] They’re Italians. They look like down at the social club down in the North End. I was retired by then. So I look at these guys. I call a friend of mine back down the intelligence unit. I say, I see these guys and here’s one of their license plates and it’s some kind of a limo service. And so, yeah, that’s our Albanian gangsters. They all hang out there at that Starbucks and then they go to the airport. They have these different things. They haul drug dealers back and forth. We are on to them. [31:29] That’s great interesting people ask Frank and I how is it that you get guys from the Russian mall or the fact with Betrayal in Blue who was a drug cartel guy or guys from the American mafia how do you get them to cooperate with you when you write these books I would like to stand whose name I can never pronounce with a whole section about the Russian mob, where he talks openly about it. And he says, because they trust us and anybody else, they want their story told truthfully. This is their legacy. They don’t want a bunch of BS about them in a book. If it’s been over seven years, they could talk about it. Unless it’s bank robbery, then it’s 10 years. We always tell them, don’t talk about anything you can be arrested for. Although, we’ll appreciate this because you’re doing this podcast. I was doing one, had this guest on, and all of a sudden he’s just talking about killing somebody. [32:35] I said, you can tell I’m kind of getting upset. Turns to his lawyers, he goes, what’s the statute of limitations on murder? Murder. Oh, my God. There isn’t one. Shut up. I have told guys that. I said, I’ll tell you something, dude. Do not tell me something I can’t live with. You can talk to me, but do not tell me something I can’t live with. You cannot trust me if you tell me something I can’t live with. And that’s the main one right there. Fortunately, they trust, People learned that they could trust Frank and I to be honest with them, direct with them, protect them if they need protection. I don’t know about the protection part. I’m not going to protect any. I’m with Jerry. Don’t tell me anything. Well, that’s what I mean. You tell them, don’t cross this line. That’s protection. Please tell them where the guardrails are. Yeah. It’s an interesting thing that we do. I’ve got some guys here and some guys around the country I’ve dealt with. And they reach out to you and they want to tell their story. I wish I could get more of them to want to tell their story. And they want to tell one thing I get criticized for. And it’ll be somebody that’s on YouTube, obviously in the know, and they’ll tell me how I got something wrong. [33:47] You deal with what you got. You deal with the newspaper articles and old court cases and things like that and try to get it right. But you can’t totally get it right. Of course, you don’t get it right as the way somebody else sees it, too. Everybody has a different take on the right story. I found out long ago, if you only rely on law enforcement, you’re not going to get the whole story. No, you got to go. Well, then you’re doing stenography. That’s what I always said. Yeah. Yeah. But it’s hard to get those people to open up, too. Man, it’s. Yeah. I was a reporter for a long time, so I’ve had some practice at it. And I’ve interviewed guys in prison. I’ve interviewed people who pre-arrest, during arrest, post-arrest. [34:26] And I’ve developed a way to talk to people that makes them comfortable. With Adam Diaz that Burrell mentioned in our book, Betrayal in Blue, this guy is a South American cartel member dealing cocaine in the United States. He went on the record and talked about his life doing that. [34:47] And the same thing in this book with Daniel Patterson. Daniel is quite a colorful character. And I interviewed him over five or six weekends about everything that he was involved in, up to and including the stuff that he did with the ITEVs. [35:04] Now, Daniel Patterson, explain who he was to the Russians. Sure. He’s basically a conduit for the Russians. He’s a guy who knew how to make money more legitimately than they did. He had the pill press. he explained the gold scam how to operate the gold scam how to write po’s how to like add a veneer of legitimacy to their business and and make more money by doing that yeah it’s like the scam emails you get you see the misspelled words they greet you in some archaic way this is a scam this guy could take all that out of it and right i always love it without warning people i want to worm. If the woman on the dating site says, I am so-and-so by name, they’re Nigerian. But if you tell them that, then all the Nigerians will stop telling them, I’ll stop using that. But if it says, I am Sally by name, they’re Nigerian. Even if they say they live in your hometown, they’re Nigerian. Good clue. Good clue. You guys hear that out there? [36:12] Yeah listen closely when you trip to one of these emails or one of these online things and you start talking to them they say my name is sally my name is nigerian hang up, how’s everything in nigerian click yeah. [36:31] Guys, I didn’t expect to get that kind of a great clue for my guys out there, but that’s a good one. I didn’t really realize that one myself. Yeah, I am Sally by name. Here’s your clue. Watch out. I was talking to a guy once, a friend of mine. He was talking about some girl that he met online, of course, through Facebook. And he said, she told me she just thought I looked interesting and sounded interesting from my Facebook. And I said, what’d she do? He said, I think she’s legitimate. I said, what’d she do? She’s an entrepreneur. I said, dude, dude. On. Dude. Model and entrepreneur. Yeah. [37:10] Okay. This has been great. Frank Girardeau and Burl Baer. B-A-R-E-R. Yes. And guys, I’ll have links to these books, all of their books. This book is A Taste for Murder, and they have Actually, this book is Where Murder Lies. Oh, I’m sorry. Okay. Oh, yeah. All right. Let me start. I’ll edit this. Their book is Where Murder Lies. And they also have one called A Taste for Murder, Betrayal in Blue, and Burned. So those are all three great true crime books. And I will have links to them in the show notes, guys. Thanks so much. Merle and Frank, I really appreciate you coming on. It’s really interesting. And Owen, if you buy the book, review the book. Say something nice about it. If you don’t like it, keep your mouth shut. Don’t give me one of those one-star reviews or I’m coming for you. You can’t trust those. [38:08] Thank you, Gary. All right. Thank you. All right. I’ll send, I don’t know, do I have your emails or do I have the publicist’s email? I got somebody’s email. Sometimes I never get your guys’ email. You got Vine, you got Frank, you got them both. All right. I’ll send you a link whenever I get this. It’ll probably be a month or more before I actually get this up. I would stay way ahead. Okay, good. Okay. All right. Talk to you soon. Same thing I can ever do for you here in Kansas City while you get on these stories or something. Hey, I’m in Missouri. I haven’t used to Missouri. I’m in Houston, Missouri. You what? I’m in Houston, Missouri. Oh, are you? Yeah, Texas County, Missouri. Oh, Texas County. Yeah, that’s way down south. That’s down south. I’m in the Ozarks. Yeah. Okay. That’s why I grew the goatee. Okay. All right. All right. Thanks, guys. Bye-bye. Bye.

Transcribed - Published: 23 March 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with author Aaron Mead to discuss his gripping novel Body in the Barrel, a story inspired by a real-life discovery in Lake Mead that shocked the nation. In 2022, as water levels at Lake Mead dropped to historic lows, authorities discovered a body in a barrel with a gunshot wound to the head—a killing style that many investigators immediately linked to organized crime. The discovery triggered speculation that the remains could date back to the 1970s or 1980s, the heyday of mob activity in Las Vegas. Aaron Mead explains how this discovery sparked the idea for his novel. Although Mead is a longtime water engineer for the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California, the mystery of the barrel victim and the history of mob activity in Las Vegas inspired him to craft a fictional story grounded in real events. Gary and Aaron dive deep into the Chicago Outfit’s influence in Las Vegas, discussing figures like Tony Spilotro and hitman Frank Cullotta, whose violent methods and stories helped shape the mythology of organized crime in the desert. They also explore the long-standing mob practice of disposing of bodies in barrels, including the infamous case of mobster Johnny Roselli, whose body was also discovered stuffed in a drum. The conversation examines several possible identities of the Lake Mead victim, including casino insiders and Outfit associates who disappeared during the era of casino skimming. Mead’s novel follows a fictional mob associate named Lenny Battaglia, who becomes terrified when news breaks about the barrel discovery. The reason? He knows there’s another barrel—with his victim—still resting somewhere in Lake Mead. The discussion moves beyond mob history into the psychological consequences of violence, comparing Mead’s story to classic works like Crime and Punishment. Rather than focusing on a traditional “whodunit,” the novel explores what happens after the crime, examining guilt, fear, and the moral weight carried by those who commit violence. Gary and Aaron also discuss the broader context of violence in American culture, including parallels between organized crime murders and modern tragedies such as the 2017 Las Vegas mass shooting. Finally, the conversation shifts to Mead’s professional expertise in Western water law and the Colorado River, explaining how drought and declining water levels at Lake Mead are literally revealing pieces of hidden history—sometimes including crimes buried for decades. This episode blends mob history, real crime mysteries, and fiction inspired by true events, offering listeners a fascinating look at how the past can resurface in unexpected ways. Body in a Barrel by Aaron Mead Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 16 March 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins sits down with author and historian Gary Clemente for a deep dive into the remarkable life of Nicola Gentile, one of the most influential yet little-known figures in early American organized crime. Gentile was no street thug. Born in Sicily in 1884, he immigrated to the United States in the early 1900s and became a roving Mafia diplomat—trusted to mediate disputes among crime families in cities such as New York, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Kansas City, Pueblo, Chicago, and beyond. Known as Zio Nicola (“Uncle Nick”), Gentile operated as a stabilizing force during the most violent period of Mafia history, including Prohibition and the Castellammarese War. Clemente reveals that Gentile’s story survives largely because Gentile broke the ultimate Mafia rule: he wrote memoirs. Those writings—published in Italy in the 1960s—were seized by the FBI and later translated by Clemente’s father, Peter Clemente, one of the first Sicilian-born agents assigned to the FBI’s elite Top Hoodlum Squad. The episode offers rare insight into those translations and the intelligence value they held for federal investigators. The discussion traces Gentile’s interactions with legendary figures such as Carlo Gambino, Al Capone, Lucky Luciano, and Vito Genovese, as well as his behind-the-scenes role in shaping the Mafia’s modern organizational structure—including the creation of the national Commission. The episode also explores Gentile’s personal contradictions: a lifelong criminal who saw himself as an honorable man, a mediator capable of violence, and a romantic who later believed a lover betrayed him to federal authorities. After fleeing the U.S. under indictment, Gentile returned to Sicily, where he later provided intelligence to Allied forces during World War II—another unlikely chapter in an already extraordinary life. Despite being sentenced to death by Mafia leaders for publishing his memoirs, Gentile was spared due to the respect he commanded on both sides of the Atlantic. He died peacefully in Sicily in 1970, leaving behind a story so expansive it feels tailor-made for film. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 16 March 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with author Aaron Mead to discuss his gripping novel Body in the Barrel, a story inspired by a real-life discovery in Lake Mead that shocked the nation. In 2022, as water levels at Lake Mead dropped to historic lows, authorities discovered a body in a barrel with a gunshot wound to the head—a killing style that many investigators immediately linked to organized crime. The discovery triggered speculation that the remains could date back to the 1970s or 1980s, the heyday of mob activity in Las Vegas. Aaron Mead explains how this discovery sparked the idea for his novel. Although Mead is a longtime water engineer for the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California, the mystery of the barrel victim and the history of mob activity in Las Vegas inspired him to craft a fictional story grounded in real events. Gary and Aaron dive deep into the Chicago Outfit’s influence in Las Vegas, discussing figures like Tony Spilotro and hitman Frank Cullotta, whose violent methods and stories helped shape the mythology of organized crime in the desert. They also explore the long-standing mob practice of disposing of bodies in barrels, including the infamous case of mobster Johnny Roselli, whose body was also discovered stuffed in a drum. The conversation examines several possible identities of the Lake Mead victim, including casino insiders and Outfit associates who disappeared during the era of casino skimming. Mead’s novel follows a fictional mob associate named Lenny Battaglia, who becomes terrified when news breaks about the barrel discovery. The reason? He knows there’s another barrel—with his victim—still resting somewhere in Lake Mead. The discussion moves beyond mob history into the psychological consequences of violence, comparing Mead’s story to classic works like Crime and Punishment. Rather than focusing on a traditional “whodunit,” the novel explores what happens after the crime, examining guilt, fear, and the moral weight carried by those who commit violence. Gary and Aaron also discuss the broader context of violence in American culture, including parallels between organized crime murders and modern tragedies such as the 2017 Las Vegas mass shooting. Finally, the conversation shifts to Mead’s professional expertise in Western water law and the Colorado River, explaining how drought and declining water levels at Lake Mead are literally revealing pieces of hidden history—sometimes including crimes buried for decades. This episode blends mob history, real crime mysteries, and fiction inspired by true events, offering listeners a fascinating look at how the past can resurface in unexpected ways. Click here to find Body in a Barrel Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. [0:02]Introduction to Gangland Wire [0:00]Hey, all you wiretappers, good to be back here in studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins. You know, I’m a retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective. Now I have a podcast and I interview real crime mobsters, policemen, FBI agents, do authors that are doing true crime books. And I do authors that are doing novels that are based on true crime. Because we stick with true crime as close as we can here, guys. You know that. And today I have one of those authors that has written a book that is a novel, but it’s based on a lot of real events in Las Vegas. And we all know a little bit about Las Vegas and the Mafia. So Aaron Mead, welcome, Aaron. Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here. It’s great to have you on the show. Tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about your history. [0:47]Sure. Yeah, I’m actually I’ve been working as an engineer, a water engineer for 30 some odd years. And so I come by my writing habit as a sort of a side interest. I, I, yeah, I just, I got a very, I’ve got a varied educational background too. So I started out as a, as an engineer in my training and then just had a creative itch and went back to school, ended up doing a PhD in philosophy of all things. And while I was doing that, I, I thought I might be an academic. I thought I might be a professor at one time and through the job search, things didn’t really work out. I did find a job, but it just wasn’t going to pay well enough, consider moving my family across the country for it. So I ended up not going into academia, but I stuck with writing, which was my favorite part of the PhD, the dissertation. [1:31]And I just started writing different things, some nonfiction stuff related to my dissertation research, but then just got an idea for a story, wrote a novel. It’s still sitting in the drawer. I’m interested in publishing that someday. But this idea for the book related to kind of Las Vegas mob stuff actually came connected with my work as a water engineer. So I work for Metropolitan Water District of Southern California. We import water to Southern California from the Colorado River. And so I track the Colorado River news pretty closely. And in 2022, the lake was dropping because of drought and overuse. And this body in a barrel showed up on the shore of Lake Mead. And there was a gunshot wound to the head. And this looked an awful lot like a mob hit to the authorities. And so this just piqued my interest and got me thinking about how did this barrel get there and this body and what’s the story behind it. And I started doing a little research and it turns out that the clothing on the body was pretty well preserved. [2:29]So the police dated it to the late 70s, early 80s potentially. And that’s of course the heyday of the mob activities in Las Vegas. It got me onto the Chicago outfit and, Some of the characters involved in the outfits activity in Vegas there. And so my story just went from there. But, yeah, I guess that’s a little about me and the story. So, yeah. Yeah. Those are the days when Tony Spolatro was really active out there. Chicago outfit man on the scene, if you will. And Body in a Barrel, another interesting Chicago link is they found a guy named Johnny Roselli, who was a highly placed mob guy who was connected to Las Vegas and Los Angeles. He had been their guy before Spalatro. He had been their representative out in the West, and they found his body in a barrel down in Florida. Wow, okay. There’s some reference there. [3:21]I’d read a little that this is a pretty popular method of body disposal in various times. And Tony Spalatro was, I understand that they haven’t actually identified the victim yet, but the kind of style of killing they think is pretty connected with something Tony Spalatro might do. I guess the sort of low caliber gunshot wound was a popular way to dispose of it, to whack people just because it was a little less messy than a high caliber weapon. Yeah, this is one they call it a lupara blanca, which means white shotgun in Italian. And that means that you never find the body. In this case, they found the body. Every once in a while, they’ll find the body. Not very often, though. Usually they hide them pretty good. Now, who’d ever thought that Lake Mead would drop that much? Yeah, they dropped it at 100 feet of water, and I don’t think anybody expected it to drop that low. And it could go even lower in the next couple of years here, honestly. Really? Oh, really? It’s still dropping. I thought there’d been some more rain and some snow up in the mountains that were going to add to that. It’s going to be still dropping, huh? Yeah, there has been a fair bit of precipitation this year, but in the areas that count most, where you get most of the runoff, which is up in the mountains of Colorado and Utah, it’s really quite dry, actually. They’ve had some rain, but not much snow, and so they’re talking about a snow drought. Yeah, things could. It just depends. We’ll see how things develop, but it could get bad. Yeah, talk about that gun now. Chicago was noted. [4:40]For using these 22 caliber high standard i think they’re browning semi-automatic pistols with a silencer on it and they had them out there i believe and they also another interesting thing about the outfit in order to keep the sound down they would load their own shells and so they were had less powder in them and sometimes the shells didn’t do the job that they wanted to do now frank Kulata, who was in Las Vegas working for Tony Splattro during these years, he tells a story about trying to kill a guy with one of those guns and how he had such a hard time getting him killed. So I don’t know how many holes were in this guy’s head, but you got to get somebody just right in the head with that .22 caliber pistol. Yeah, they say it had to be pretty close range. You’re talking about the Jerry Listener murder, I think. Is that right? Yeah. I read about that one. That’s actually the kind of the murder in question in my book is based on that loosely. And so yeah, Kolata advises my main character, Lenny, to load his gun with half loads because they’ve lost their silencer or something. So that’ll keep the sound down. But yeah, I guess Lister ended up with multiple bullets to the head. And when they found them, more than you’d imagine would be necessary. [5:55]Really? There’s a guy that worked for the Stardust named Jay VanderWalk that disappeared at the time. It disappeared for a long time. Did you look at that one, too, as some of your source material? Yeah. So there’s this great article that’s been turned into a podcast on the Mob Museum website. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that in Las Vegas there. And they suggest there might be three potential victims. [6:21]VanderMark is one of the—is that the guy you mentioned, George VanderMark? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they call him by Jay. That’s right. Yeah. So, yeah, he is one of the, he’s a missing person, right? From that era, had connections with the Argent company. So they think he, that’s one of the possibilities. He was running the skimming operation, at least in some of the casinos there for Argent. And I guess the, as the gaming control board in Nevada found out about the skimming operation, gradually, they were starting to talk to people. And I think that they were worried that he was going to talk or actually this is, I think the, the outfit suspected he was stealing money from him. I think it was a combination. Stealing money is worse than talking. Right, yeah. So I guess he took off to Mexico, maybe, I read, or Costa Rica even. But I think… He came back. I can’t remember the exact story, but yeah. Yeah. So from what I read, Nick Calabrese, who I guess was a hitman for the outfit, and then turned eventually and started talking to the feds. He suggested that, I guess, Vandermark ended up in a hotel in Phoenix or something, and the outfit sent a couple of hitmen after him and whacked him there. And then Calabrese said they buried his body in the desert. So that means, you know, if that’s true, then obviously it’s not the guy in the barrel, but he’s one of the ones they talk about because they never found his body. Yeah. And I guess the other one I read about was William Crespo. [7:40]I don’t know that story. Yeah. So the little I know of it is he was a drug runner [7:48]Stories of the Las Vegas Mob [7:45]involved with the outfit in Las Vegas. And he got caught kind of landing in the Las Vegas airport coming from Miami with $400,000 worth of cocaine on him. And the feds arrested him. He accepted an offer of immunity to become an informant. And he was set to testify about this drug ring that the outfit was part of. And he actually ended up testifying before a grand jury, got a bunch of folks indicted. I guess one of the names of folks who was indicted was Victor Greger, according to this article. He was a former Argent executive. But then when Crespo himself went to testify, he was set to testify in June 83. And they got to him before then and he never testified. So, he’s another kind of missing person they suspect could be in the barrel. But the article thought the most likely candidate was a guy named Johnny Pappas. I don’t know if you know him at all. Yeah, I don’t know the story of that. Okay. So, this is a Chicago native guy who was involved in some of the Argent Corporation casino work. And he was, I guess by the 70s, late 70s, he was managing this resort on the northern part of Lake Mead called Echo Bay Resort, which was an Argent Corporation Resort. [9:00]And it’s closed now. It’s not there anymore. It used to be like a hotel and a boat launch. And so he was at the lake at different times. He also owned a boat on Lake Mead. And so in 1976, the day he disappeared, his wife told authorities basically that he went to meet this guy at a restaurant who was interested in buying his boat at Lake Mead. And so they think it could have been a ruse set up by outfit folks luring him basically down to the lake to show him his boat. And then they knock him off and take him out on his own dang boat and drop him in the lake. The motive is a little less clear in this case, but it was around that time when stuff was coming out about the Argent Corporation and the skimming. And they could have just thought he was a liability, might be set to talk or something. Yeah, those are the three that I read about anyway. He just disappeared after this meeting to go sell his boat. Yeah, they found that theory makes sense. They found his car parked in the circus casino parking lot on the strip the next day. And yeah, he’s just gone, disappeared. [10:01]I’ll be darned. I hadn’t heard that story. That is a pretty likely scenario. Say, hey, I’ll drive and let’s run down there and let’s see that boat. I got the money right here. You show the guy a bunch of money and he’ll drop all caution. It’ll go to the wind. That’s how they do it. and got him isolated then. [10:18]Yeah. And maybe it’s a last minute deal. So nobody really knows who he’s meeting and where he’s going and that he’s even going. So that’s, that’s a classic in the mob. Yeah. Apparently he told his wife he was going to go sell his boat, but that’s about it. Yeah. I’ll be darned. Yeah. The, as Lake Mead’s gone down, has there been any other bodies or any other things that have been found out there recently? Yeah, there’s been some strange things turned up. One is a sort of a World War II era airplane, honestly, started coming out of the water. But that was known about for some time. You could see it, I guess, from aerial photos. But other bodies, yeah, there’s a few other bodies, just skeletons, nothing in barrels and no gunshot wounds. And so, people just, I think authorities have identified most of those and suspect they were just drowning victims, unfortunate boating accidents and whatnot. But nothing like this body in a barrel. I think they’ve been trying to identify that body. There’s lots of DNA evidence, right? You got still a pretty intact body. But the problem is back in that era, I guess they didn’t have the DNA database to be matching with. Yeah. So, it’s not borne a lot of fruit. I think it’s still an open case, honestly. Really? The chance they have is if one of that guy’s descendants goes to something like 23andMe and then does that. And I know they’ve come up with a deal where they can start running an unknown DNA through those… [11:44]Files and see if you can come up with a connection and then go back and say, okay, where would this guy have ever come across or be in this other person’s family tree, if you will, and then they can eventually get it. That’s fascinating. Amazing. Yeah, it is what they could do. I had a guy that used to be a professional criminal talking about it. He said, I don’t know why anybody does crime today. He said with the DNA and the cameras and the cell phones and all that, he said, there’s just way, way too many ways to get caught. That’s wild. Yeah. Oh boy. Yeah. I watch a lot of crime shows and I see a lot of that stuff. And everybody watches those crime shows. So they know about those tools out there. So first thing, you got to go get a burner phone. If you’re going to go do something, you better go get a burner phone. And then you better dress up in one of those suits in those English police movies, those white hazmat suits and your whole face covered. Crazy, crazy. Yeah. And then go do it. Don’t use your own car. You better go steal a car somewhere. Man, complicated. It’s too hard. Yes. And even then, if they look at you and say, your phone never moved for 24 hours, but yet you were seen over here or over there. How come you didn’t have your phone with you or your car? You parked your car here for 12 hours and then you came back and got it. What were you doing? [13:08]It is just crazy, isn’t it? Yeah. But tell us, what’s the storyline of your book? Don’t give too much away. You want people to buy it. I understand that. But tell the guys the storyline of your book. Sure, yeah. So the storyline is, it starts out with the true events of 2022, right? This headline that there’s a body in a barrel shows up on the shore of Lake Mead. And my main protagonist, who’s sort of made up from my imagination, his name’s Lenny Battaglia. [13:37]The Body in the Barrel [13:33]And he reads this headline. He’s an old time mob associate. He, at one time when he was young, was connected with the outfit, but ended up getting out of it barely. But he reads this headline and starts to get worried because he’s got a barrel with a body in it that’s his victim farther out in the lake. So this one that he reads about is not his. It’s actually his partners who, in my story, the partners loosely based on Frank Collada, actually. [14:01]And so he reads this headline, gets worried, goes out in his little boat to try to move his victim farther out into the lake because he’s concerned that his lake, the lake’s continuing to drop and the kind of the falling lakes acts like a ticking clock in my story in some ways. I think the Sopranos did something like this. They thought somebody was going to come up and buy some farm, and they had said, these guys have to dig this body up and move it. So that is not out of the realm of possibility, is it? No, no. But what is out of the realm of possibility is this old guy in his tiny little boat actually moving the barrel. So he goes out with just a gaff with a hook on it and tries to yank it out with his little outboard motor, and it just won’t budge. The thing’s really heavy. If you know anything about water, stuff under water is really heavy. Really heavy. Yeah. He’s wrestling with it and ends up falling in while he’s trying to pull this barrel farther out. And so it’s a big failure. And while he’s falling in, he has this flashback to the killing, basically. And so the story kind of goes from there, but it’s really focused on how he deals with what he’s done, basically. [15:10]Crime is no mystery from the beginning. it’s not a it’s not a traditional it’s not a traditional police procedural of where who done it yeah it’s not like that it’s more like kind of what is what’s the aftermath what’s the effect of, a terrible crime like this on even the perpetrator yeah yeah and as I said one of my characters is based on Frank Collada who so he was the story takes place in kind of two time frames right we’ve got the, contemporary time frame, but then we got flashbacks to his time at the mob and Frank was his partner in this hit. We’ve also got a character showing up who’s based on Tony Spolatro. I call him Tony Bonucci, named after one of my favorite Italian soccer players. [15:50]But yeah, so we’ve got this connection to the early 80s, late 70s, and then also this kind of contemporary period. And I understand Frank Collado was actually, he recently just died, right he was he did during covid times i think he he already had copd he was already everything he did he you’d see me to have his oxygen on and so he was already weakened then he got covid during uh during covid that’s a shame you know yeah i did some listening to a podcast he was on in researching my book and it was really fascinating to listen to yeah yeah he is he’s and he’s got his there’s a whole book out there that he mainly just told stories about his life during the whole book. It’s amazing. I did one with him and then added some more clips in from that a long time. One of my earlier ones, I got to know him real early because we had the mob con out there. I knew the guy that was getting it going and I went out to the guy that actually Denny Griffin who wrote the books with Frank Collider, wrote several books with Frank Collider and I’d gotten to know Denny and so Denny invited me to come out and do a program at the first mob conference and I met Frank then. I met him and a couple others after that. He was gruff, but he was a good guy. I mean, he was gruff, I’ll tell you. He wasn’t a guy that just, it was hard to joke around with him. Interesting. Okay, interesting. [17:12]Yeah, I got a bit of that vibe from the podcast of him that I was listening to. Yeah, it’s funny. Just genuine Italian Chicago, like to the core. Yeah, he was that. He was born and bred, born and bred from early his childhood. He was a Chicago mobster. There’s no doubt about that. That’s wild. [17:32]Yeah, Denny Griffin’s book was really helpful to me, actually, in my research. Yeah, the battle for Las Vegas in particular was. Yeah, that’s the one I used. Denny was that. Denny’s dead now. I don’t know if you knew that. I did know that, unfortunately. Yeah, I was pretty good friends with Denny. He helped me out a lot when I got started and got me out there. And he gave me for my first documentary, which was about the skimming, a lot about the skimming. He got me several people to interview, lined me up with them and verified, hey, this guy’s okay and work with him. And I flew out to Las Vegas and interviewed a bunch of people and interviewed him too. But he got me an employee of the Best Casino that knew Lefty Rosenthal really well. She gave us some really great sound bites. I get calls today or emails wanting to know if she’s still around. She’s died since. People are still trying to find her to get to interview her. That’s wild. That’s wild. That’s because old Denny Griffin, he was a good guy. He really was. That’s neat. His book was certainly good. Yeah. Interesting. So what else do you want to say about your book before we get out of here? Besides, go out and buy it. Go out and buy it. It’s on Amazon, I’m sure, and I’ll have a link to the Amazon site. I appreciate that. Yeah, it is on Amazon. What do I want to say about it? I guess the other thing to say is it’s got some, I don’t want to give too much away, but gun violence is really a big part of the book. Not only this single mob hit, but also it wraps in. [18:56]This mass shooting in 2017, the one where the guy was a shooter was in the hotel suites up high and he was shooting across the street into that country music festival. So it’s really funny. I compare it to two things, right? I compare it to Casino, which is this famous Scorsese film from that mobster era, which everybody knows about. And actually, Frank Collado was in. He had a cameo in that. Yeah, that’s funny. But then the other thing I compare the book to is Dostoevsky’s Crime and Punishment, which is obviously this sort of towering literary novel. But the parallel is just dealing with this aftermath of violence, right? What happens when you kill somebody and what’s the sort of dealing with guilt and fear and the consequences. [19:44]Exploring Themes of Violence [19:40]So I’d say those are the sort of things I point to as parallels for the book. I don’t know. There’s a lot more to say. Like you’ve said, it’s grounded in true life crime, but it’s also definitely fiction. I’ve made up the better part of it. Yeah. [19:54]All right. Aaron Mead. The book is Body in the Barrel. Aaron, I really appreciate you coming on the show. And guys, I’ll have links to this book down below. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure meeting you and hearing some of your stories. And I’m enjoying your podcast. And it’s been a privilege to be on here. So thank you. Okay. We like to hear that. Thanks a lot, Aaron. [20:17]Yeah, thank you. Okay. Okay. I’ll do a little extra here in a minute. I just want to tell you something. When I went to law school at the police department and my favorite class was water law and I did my, you have to do a 50 page publishable paper to get out of law school. I did mine on Western water law and it was just, I was fascinated by that Western water law and all the things that go into that, the Rio Grande Pact and all the different political entities that are trying to use that water and how they use it. And then how the EPA rules and figured in on using water out West. And the fact that out West, they treated water like they treated gold or some other mineral. If you found the source, you owned it. Whereas they had riparian interest in [21:06]The Complexities of Water Law [21:03]laws back East here, where you have plenty of water. You can use all the water you want as long as you don’t reduce it. But nobody owns that source of water. [21:12]If it’s a big source, it’s just a fascinating topic. Yeah, it is a bit of the Wild West, like applies to water out West. It’s that first in time, first in right thing. It’s pretty crazy. The Colorado River especially is so complicated. You got seven, seven states take water from it. You got the federal government running the dams there. You’ve got Mexico that takes a portion of it. You’ve got this whole hundred year history of law layered on top of each other. And even today, the rules on how the water gets distributed are about to expire in this year. And so we’re trying to come up with new rules. And it’s just so tough because… [21:49]There’s less water in the river than there used to be, and so the old agreements don’t quite work out, and we’re having to take reductions, and, you know, who takes what? It’s just sort of a big mess, honestly. We’re fighting over it. I wouldn’t be surprised if we end up in court, honestly. But that would be not a good outcome, but it seems potentially likely. Yeah. There’s a judge I heard say once that, you better make a deal outside of my courtroom. If you come into my courtroom, my decision is not going to hurt everybody’s feelings with my decision. Yeah. And inevitably, like the folks, the special masters or whatever the justices are that are making the decisions, they don’t know as much about water as we do. If we can’t work it out, it’s going to happen. I know. And there are just so many pressures that are on it. And it’s tough. And plus, one thing we haven’t mentioned is a huge growth in population over the last 20, 30 years out there. It’s true. Yeah, it’s true. Yes, unbelievable how many people have moved to Phoenix and Albuquerque and Las Vegas, especially Las Vegas, but just being such a huge growth in population out. And before it was desert that nobody really, they didn’t live, they didn’t want to live out there. [22:55]It’s true. Yeah. And surprisingly, like in a lot of these cities, actually, the demand for water has not increased. Like in Las Vegas, it’s actually gone down. Oh, really? They have done an incredible job of conserving water. Same in Los Angeles. The demands for water have gone down despite the population growth. The thing that makes it challenging is that the whole pie is shrinking and it’s the agricultural use that’s the highest. I think it’s something like 85% or 80% of the water in the Colorado Basin is agriculture. And so, those are the things you’re going to need to find conservation there, which is harder. [23:30]Like those Israelis did, it was something called drip irrigation where they used, they were more skillful in the way they used their water in their fields down in the desert. Yeah, and some of the folks that’s been, some of the agricultural folks have been converting to that kind of irrigation for quite some time now. So, it’s like we’re wringing out every sponge we got and running out of options. But, yeah, we’ll figure it out one way or the other here. Yeah, I’m sure we will. This is America, after all. [23:59]Or is it still America? It’s hard to know. Yeah, it’s hard to know. We’re going down that path. Looking a little different these days. Yes, it is. Yeah. Oh, my God. Okay, Aaron, I really appreciate it. I’ll get in touch with you whenever I send an email with the links after I put them up. It’ll be, I don’t know. It’ll probably be a month or more before I get it up. Sure. I stay way ahead. I’ve got quite a few kind of scheduled up for the next two weeks now or three. Smart. Two weeks now, one just went up today. So I put it up, video, I put them up on Sunday evening, and then the audio comes out like 4 o’clock in the morning on Monday morning. Okay. Don’t ask me why. I just started doing that. Yeah. No worries. It gets ahead of everybody. Then they can see it. Hey, I’ve got a question for you, if you don’t, if you don’t mind. No. Do you know about any contemporary organized crime activity in Las Vegas? Is there still stuff going on or is it? I don’t. I really don’t. Yeah. Okay. [24:59]Trying to think of a source for you. I’ll check with a source for you. Okay. I know it’s not Midwest folks from your era, but yeah. Yeah, no, probably something up there out at Los Angeles and people that moved out there a generation ago and stayed under the radar. And then, of course, international. Yeah. Those like Russians and people like that out of Phoenix or in Los Angeles, both. Anyhow, I’ll check on that. Okay. Yeah. If you think of something, that’d be great. I’d be interested. Okay. Okay. I will. All right. Thank you. Thank you again. Take care. All right. Bye-bye. Can you go ahead and do, can you exit the meeting? I’m going to do a little ending thing here. I will. Yeah. [25:40]That was interesting, folks. I did Waterlaw in, well, that was interesting, folks. I really liked Aaron and I think his Body in the Barrel book is going to be pretty darn good. [25:53]Concluding Thoughts on Crime and History [25:50]So I’d recommend you try it. I haven’t actually read it myself. I’ve read excerpts from it. I’ve got it here. I need to sit down and take some time and read it. I like when they base it on the real life people and some people that I know something about. It’s kind of like hearing stories about your hometown. Oh, yeah, I know that guy. Oh, yeah, I remember when that happened. And it’s an interesting thing, the lowering of Lake Mead. He and I, he’s a water engineer, and he and I talked a little bit more about it. I find it a fascinating topic, that Western water law and Western water rights and how that all works. It’s different than back east where we have plenty of water. So don’t forget, I’ve got videos on Amazon Prime for rent. Just use my name and mafia, Gary Jenkins Mafia on Amazon Prime, and you’ll find them. And I’ve got books there. Do the same thing. Gary Jenkins Mafia books. I’ve got three books on Amazon and I’ve got them on my website. And I always appreciate when people make comments on my YouTube channel or on my Gangland Wire podcast page. We’re just here to report mob history. That’s all we want to do is report mob history. And in this case, we got a fictional book that’s reporting mob history based on real mob history. I’ll do that every once in a while, too. [27:07]So thanks a lot, guys. I always appreciate doing this show. It’s a way to end my life out, if you will. I’m down to that last quarter, maybe down to the last two minutes one of these days, but we’ll get there. Thanks a lot, guys.

Transcribed - Published: 16 March 2026

Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history through his unique perspective on the mafia. In this episode of Gangland Wire, Gary Jenkins welcomes an unusual guest from the world of organized crime storytelling—cartoonist Brett Juliano, creator of the Dust Bunny Mafia comic series. Instead of traditional books or documentaries, Brett tells real Mafia stories through short, three-panel comics featuring his unique cartoon characters while staying grounded in historical research and documented sources. Brett explains how his lifelong interest in animation and storytelling evolved into a project that blends true crime history with visual humor and commentary. After moving to Chicago, he became fascinated with the city’s underworld history and began transforming real mob stories into illustrated comic strips that challenge Hollywood myths and highlight lesser-known facts about organized crime. His work draws on true crime books, FBI files, court transcripts, and podcasts, including Gangland Wire itself. Each comic strip distills a real historical moment into a visual gag or ironic twist that reveals the strange reality behind mob legends. Gary and Brett discuss several Dust Bunny Mafia comics and the real events behind them: The “Sicilian Flu” Courtroom Act A humorous look at a tactic sometimes used by mob figures: appearing frail in court to gain sympathy or delay proceedings. Wiseguys who were partying the night before might suddenly appear in a wheelchair, wrapped in blankets or hooked to oxygen tanks when they walked into court. Lucky Luciano and the Myth of “Lucky” Brett examines the legendary story that Charles “Lucky” Luciano got his nickname after surviving a brutal kidnapping and beating. His comic plays with the idea that mobsters often exaggerated their own legends—especially when trying to impress people. The Kansas City Mob Search – Carl “Tuffy” DeLuna One comic comes directly from Gary Jenkins’ own experience investigating the Kansas City mob. When police searched DeLuna’s home in 1979, the mobster calmly offered coffee and eventually led investigators straight to the basement, where incriminating notes were stored. The scene shows how, sometimes, the truth of organized crime investigations is stranger than fiction. Bugsy Siegel in Rainy Portland Another comic explores the obscure story of Bugsy Siegel visiting Portland to meet local crime boss Al Winters, only to endure two straight weeks of rain—highlighting the contrast between Hollywood-style mob glamour and the less glamorous reality of underworld negotiations. A New Graphic Anthology on Kickstarter Brett is now launching a major new collection of his comics titled: “Family Business: An Offer You Can’t Refuse.” The book will include: 130+ pages of full-color comics More than 230 true crime strips Historical commentary explaining the real story behind each comic Additional artwork parodying mob businesses and underworld culture The project will be funded through a Kickstarter campaign beginning March 24, with the finished book expected to ship later in the year once printing is completed. Click here for 👉 Kickstarter Campaign:  Where to Find Brett Juliano You can explore Brett’s comics, books, and merchandise here: Dust Bunny Mafia Website:  Online Store: Brett also shares his comics across social media platforms including Instagram, Threads, and Facebook groups focused on organized crime history. For fans of Mafia history, Dust Bunny Mafia offers a refreshing twist—true crime storytelling through comics that balance humor with serious historical research. As Gary notes during the interview, separating myth from reality is essential in mob history, and Brett’s work uses a creative medium to do exactly that. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. Transcript [00:00:00] hey, are you Wire tappers? Gary Jenkins back here in the studio of Gangland Wire. I’m a retired Kansas City Police Intelligence unit detective and, I investigated the Mafia and I’m still working on the Mafia only. We work on mafia history now, and I have a kind of unusual, different sort of a story today. I have a man who has been doing. Cartoons based on real mob stories, but he has his own little cartoon characters. It’s called Dust Bunny Mafia. If you’re on my gangland Wire podcast group, you might’ve seen that, and he’s on other places in social media. So welcome Brett Juliano. Welcome Brett. Thanks, Gary. Thanks for having me on. All right, cool. Guys, let me, I’m just gonna give you a little taste of what this looks like. It’s when I first saw it. That, that’s interesting. I appreciate a, a different way of doing these kinds of things. All right. That should be, there you go. All right. There you go. There’s which one was that? That was the Sicilian flu. Brett tell the guys a little bit about, what got you [00:01:00] into this and then we’ll talk about each one of these images that you sent me. Yeah, so I’ve been doing comics and the Dust Bunny mafia for over a dozen years. Long story short, I wanted to be a animator when I was, young. And then as I grew up, I always loved the idea of telling stories through visual form. And then after moving out to Chicago about 10 years ago, I really wanted to connect with the principle of the local history of the Chicago Underworld and retell it through my Dust Bunny Mafia Comex. I try and. Do it in a way in which the I try to break the myths of Hollywood and a lot of things. I try and get my, research through primary sources. So I’ll, listen to True Crime podcasts like yours. I have a huge collection at home of True Crime books, looking through FBI files, court transcripts, things like that. And [00:02:00] I just want to. Find ways to compose those things into three panel comics that kind of address myths and other, aspects of the mafia. So I know you, you came to the Mob Con out in Las Vegas and had a whole display of different things. So you even have a whole little a book too, don’t you? Or you’ve got one or more books that are a little bit longer than just a one three panel? Yes. Yeah, I’ve got, with the Dust Bunny Mafia comic. Overall I am, I’ve done about 10 books total. Okay. I’ve got three big graphic novel trade collections, and then, as you’re aware, the little based on true story booklets like these ones, like where these scripts come in, I now am collecting that into a larger anthology collection that’s gonna be 132 page full color that has over 200. About 230 individual strips with the commentary. Do you have a website or how do people [00:03:00] get hold of you if they’d want to get some of this? Yeah, you can find me comics dot dust bunny mafia.com or Dust Bunny mafia dot Big Cartel is the online store and I ship everything out myself. I’ve done a bunch of crowdfunding campaigns, over 20 of them, and I’ve shipped all over the world with my comics and basically searched Dust Bunny Mafia. I’m on. Like you mentioned earlier, a lot of the Facebook groups, I’m on Instagram, threads X, all the all the social platforms and I’ll guys, I’ll have a link to his website in the in the show notes. Brett, tell us a little bit about this one. This is the or I’ve got the Sicilian flu. Tell us about this story here. What’s the real story here? So that story comes that strip is based on an interview with Joaquin Phoenix, Joaquin Garcia, excuse me who was known as Jack. And [00:04:00] he was interviewed, I believe on the Before the Lights podcast with Tommy Canal. And he was telling a story about Greg De Palma going to court one day and while he was being, while he was being, deposed and brought in for questioning. Basically it’s addressing the myth of the actions and the over exaggerations that mob officers will do to tie things up or misdirect. So he was talking about how. The wise guys will be out eating and drinking, partying, at night or on the weekends. And then they’ll come to court in a wheelchair, maybe have a blanket. Some of ’em will even throw, have a little oxygen tank and, just the absurdity of things that they will, the lengths they will go to to try and misdirect or hope things up. Interesting. Yeah, that’s a common kind of a deal that more not just mobsters do that. There’s other criminals have done that too. I’ve seen that myself. So let’s talk about [00:05:00] two is let be a lady. Get that one up there. All right. What’s the story of luck? Be a lady. So luck Be a lady is talking about the myth of Charles Luck, Luciano’s nickname of Lucky. Yes. And about, how it was one night, one kidnapping that, where he got the scar and the people dragged him into, Staten Island. They. Speed him overnight, tortured him, set him free, and then that’s how it was, that one event is what made him or gave him the nickname. Lucky. When in actuality what I’m paring here is that, he’s trying to impress girls in my comic and, with each drink and stuff, he adds more myth and more legend to the nickname. And. I believe, the event happened. I’m not trying to discredit that. I just [00:06:00] think he, and I’ve seen sources say that he had the nickname long before the beating and like the one night, event. And it wasn’t that instance that gave him the nickname Lucky. Interesting. I never thought about that, what I always thought. I think that was I think he reported that himself in that book that he wrote with another author. I think that’s where that story came from. I’m not sure but I always figured he probably had some coppers tuned him up and, but he had to make it into a much better story and make himself much tougher. Yeah, of course. And they would do that back in those days. They’d tune your ass up bad. All right. Let’s see. Now we got, oh, I know this one. Show me the way I. So this one is based on your account? Yeah, that’s so it’s talking about Carl Tuffy de Luna’s home being searched after Valentine’s Day or around Valentine’s Day [00:07:00] in 1979, where the Kansas City Police department and the FBI. Executed a, search warrant on his house. And so I set it up very cordial in which, my detectives are, being served coffee and then. The line that I loved most from the book was basically where he is like, all right, you might as well come into the basement. That’s where you’ll find the good stuff. And he’s, leading them around the property and everything saying, if you wanna find this, here’s where you’re gonna get this. Almost like it was a art collector or, someone’s showing off a house. And so it’s one of those instances where, the truth is stranger that fiction. And so I was like. Once I saw that, I’m like, okay, I can translate this into a comic and, reach a broader audience. Yeah. Really? Yeah. It’s I’ll never forget, I, he tells his wife, says, Sandy said, fix these officers a pot of coffee. So she was visibly making coffee and he was kind, he would [00:08:00] follow ’em around a little bit. Point stuff out. They went and they come up from downstairs. They brought two or three guns up from upstairs, downstairs hey, tough. Where’d you get this? And then, it was getting like midnight or something and it was like, we are gonna be there. And we were there in the end, almost till four in the morning. And I, and it’s one agent, Shay Airy. He is dead now, but he was a long time mob. Investigator goes back to, to when they first formed the top hoodlum squad in Kansas City. And so he knew Tuffy pretty well. They were familiar with each other. And finally Tuffy says, Shay, you might as well come on downstairs. That’s where the good stuff is. I remember thinking, oh my God. And that’s where they found all the notes that he’d been keeping. See, he knew that was good stuff. He knew the importance of those notes and a little additional story on those notes. The next day or two, he’s meeting with some of these other guys with Joe Ragusa and Charlie Moretina in a restaurant, and they’ve got a bug on this table where they’re at. And he said, here’s what he says. He says, I got caught with a [00:09:00] bunch of shit. He said, I had it on the bag and I was gonna throw it away but man, they, I just didn’t get to the trashing time and I didn’t get it thrown away. He wasn’t got thrown away. He was just one of these guys that kept everything. And and that bunch of shit that he was talking about with those, those notes the infamous notes. All right, let’s see here. I’ll try. This is on a counter rain. Okay, there we go. So this is on a counter rain. So tell me the story on this one. I’m not sure. So this comes from a local myth about Portland, Oregon. And so I’ve got my Bugsy Siegel Ben Siegel character, and then he’s meeting with Al Winters, who was the local boss of kind of crime boss in the area. And apparently the story set goes that Ben Siegel visited him. And he spent two weeks in Portland trying to find a way for them to [00:10:00] work together to open up a gambling casino or something. And the, over the two weeks, it didn’t rain. It didn’t stop raining every single day that Bugsy was there. It, didn’t, it didn’t let up. And so he the idea is that, we don’t have any real good accounts on whether this did or didn’t happen. There’s very little known about, the Portland crime family and those things. There’s only a couple books been written as far as my knowledge. And but it’s just playing with the fact that, the Pacific Northwest and Portland is rainy for a long time, and a mobster who’s more, affiliated with Hollywood and Las Vegas and sunny Southern California, Portland would be a nightmare. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And you must have talked to Casey McBride on that one. Our friend Casey McBride from Portland. And ’cause he talked a lot, he’s talked a lot [00:11:00] about Al Winter and he was like the, I think started during prohibition and the crime boss of Portland. If you think of Portland having a crime bus. And it wouldn’t make sense if if he was gonna do anything outside of Portland and even in, even if he had, was making any money. Why, buggy Siegel, he felt like he was a West Coast boss. I got a feeling and anything that happened on the West coast and he heard about it, he probably would be coming around wanting to get a little piece of that action. That’s how they are. They hear you’re getting some kind of criminal action that’s organized and steady and regular. They’re gonna come around, try to get a piece of it. So I would imagine that’s what he was up there doing. And there’s no doubt Al Winter was the. Erstwhile crime boss and we had a guy from ended up in Kansas City, came through Kansas City. He had a relative here named Joe Augusto, who ended up in Las Vegas. But he went to Portland for a while. He was, and he was a Sicilian and he had different scams going. We’d never heard of him when he appeared in Las Vegas, but he ended up [00:12:00] catching a case up there in neither Washington State or Oregon, I can’t remember which one now for some kind of a scam. He was running. He came back down and he got in with the people at the Tropicana and Joe Agosto Somehow I know how he did it. He, and he was connected to Nick Ella here in Kansas City, and he used, he parlayed that connection. With the people that owned the Tropicana, there was several partners in that. And they wanted a big loan to, to amp up the Tropicana, to keep up with the other expansion of the other casinos, and they needed to get this big loan. It’s hard to get loans for casinos, regular banks back then, regular banks would not make loans, but the Teamsters Union would. And so he parlayed his connection with Nick Novella. Claiming, promising that they would get a big Teamsters loan. And then N Novella made sure they didn’t get it for a while as he kept working his way in and getting more employees that he, that owed him into places and then they started to skim. And that’s that’s a little [00:13:00] Kansas City connection to the northwest part of the United States. Yeah. Interesting. Tell us a little more about it. What do you got planned now? You’re putting those little three, three panel true crime ones into will you organize it by family or how will you do that? Yeah, so I’ve got so the collection’s called family Business. An offer you can’t refuse. And it’s going to be crowdfunded via Kickstarter starting on March 24th and run through mid-April. I expect the book to be then available for public demand in June or July of this year. ‘Cause it takes a little time to print everything. But yeah, I’ve got it organized roughly into like geographic area. So I start with Chicago and then I, for the most part will go chronologically. So I’ll find, oh, I see. The strips about Johnny Torrio and Al Capone, and then move up, through the years until you’re talking about Ian Kana, Antonio Caro, and things like that. And that’ll hit each of the [00:14:00] kind of big regions. So I’ve got everything from, chicago in the Midwest, and then I’ll go into down to Cincinnati and hit things on and Newport, Kentucky during prohibition where George Remus and some of the Cleveland Syndicate started gambling dens and things like that. And then I move into New York and do the same thing. But I’ve got. I’ve been working on these comics for this is the seventh year that I’ve been doing these True Story comics, so I’m gonna have over two hundred and thirty, two thirty five in this collection. And then Eve’s Comic has a little blurb, a small paragraph, explaining the true life story that inspired the comics. And so throughout the book it’s gonna be two to four comics on a page or in a spread. And then there’s gonna be different different kind of segues in between in which I’ll have some of the graphic design work [00:15:00] that I’ve done to parody mafia businesses, like ante cigars based on Carmine ante if he had a cigar shop. And I’ll do things like that. And so I’ll have like little interludes or kind of chapter breaks. Between different stories and which I’ll also explain some, give some context for, the casual true crime fans, and you had t-shirts with ante cigar shops and different things like that too, don’t you? Yep. You had those made up for as gifts or what as rewards for your crowd crowdsourcing thing. ’cause I think I’ve got one of those ante cigar shop t-shirts or I used to, I, it’s around here somewhere. I don’t know, sometimes I run through t-shirts and I get some many and I just start getting rid of ’em and starting over again. Oh yeah. I’ve got, I try and get one for each of the campaigns that I run. And and when I do that, I’ve now got a huge stack and I’m like, yeah. Yeah. And it’s just ’cause I want to test the quality, make sure I have good. Product for my backers, and then I’m like, I don’t really [00:16:00] need another T-shirt, but I’m gonna offer ’em. I first started in this first movie I made up a whole bunch of t-shirts. I bought 300 t-shirts that gang land wire, and I think I’m, this is eight or nine years later and I’m down to one or two left of the original t-shirts. Then I discovered print on demand that Printful that you told me about. And so now I just print ’em, I get one done at a time. Yep. For my gang led Wired, I don’t really try to do any other t-shirts. I don’t know. It’s sometimes it’s like you just, it gets so spread, so thin, doing different things that I run outta time myself. Yeah. Now, are these books or are they just the graphic novels, or are they just available off your website, or do you have some of ’em up on Amazon or places like that? Yeah, so Meet the Family. My first dust Bunny Mafia graphic novel is on Amazon. And then the rest of ’em are on my website or on Kickstarter. [00:17:00] When I have the campaigns going, I’ll usually have different add-ons that people can, pledge for to get all the books or the different, like mobster playing cards that I’ve done, things like that. Interesting. Interesting. All right, Brett Juliano, I really appreciate you coming on here and we will get this up and guys if you’re interested in this, get hold of old Brett. I’ll have the contact information. He he’ll be glad to, to ship you out some stuff and he needs, I, I appreciate anybody that does he does, Brett does everything. Characters are not real, but the stories are real. So I appreciate anybody that bases anything on the real stories ’cause there’s so much myth out there and so much bullshit that that, so I appreciate that you do that, Brett. Thank you Gary. That means a lot. Okay. All right, Brett. Good talking to you. Yeah, thanks for having me on. Okay. All right, Brett. I’ll I don’t know next week or two, maybe I’ll go ahead and slide this up there. [00:18:00] No, I appreciate it. I’ll send you a link. I’ll send you a link whenever we, I get it up there. Sounds great. Thanks Gary. Okay. Alright. Bye. Bye.

Transcribed - Published: 10 March 2026

Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history through his unique perspective on the mafia. In this episode of Gangland Wire, Gary Jenkins welcomes an unusual guest from the world of organized crime storytelling—cartoonist Brett Juliano, creator of the Dust Bunny Mafia comic series. Instead of traditional books or documentaries, Brett tells real Mafia stories through short, three-panel comics featuring his unique cartoon characters while staying grounded in historical research and documented sources. Brett explains how his lifelong interest in animation and storytelling evolved into a project that blends true crime history with visual humor and commentary. After moving to Chicago, he became fascinated with the city’s underworld history and began transforming real mob stories into illustrated comic strips that challenge Hollywood myths and highlight lesser-known facts about organized crime. His work draws on true crime books, FBI files, court transcripts, and podcasts, including Gangland Wire itself. Each comic strip distills a real historical moment into a visual gag or ironic twist that reveals the strange reality behind mob legends. Gary and Brett discuss several Dust Bunny Mafia comics and the real events behind them: The “Sicilian Flu” Courtroom Act A humorous look at a tactic sometimes used by mob figures: appearing frail in court to gain sympathy or delay proceedings. Wiseguys who were partying the night before might suddenly appear in a wheelchair, wrapped in blankets or hooked to oxygen tanks when they walked into court. Lucky Luciano and the Myth of “Lucky” Brett examines the legendary story that Charles “Lucky” Luciano got his nickname after surviving a brutal kidnapping and beating. His comic plays with the idea that mobsters often exaggerated their own legends—especially when trying to impress people. The Kansas City Mob Search – Carl “Tuffy” DeLuna One comic comes directly from Gary Jenkins’ own experience investigating the Kansas City mob. When police searched DeLuna’s home in 1979, the mobster calmly offered coffee and eventually led investigators straight to the basement, where incriminating notes were stored. The scene shows how, sometimes, the truth of organized crime investigations is stranger than fiction.  Bugsy Siegel in Rainy Portland Another comic explores the obscure story of Bugsy Siegel visiting Portland to meet local crime boss Al Winters, only to endure two straight weeks of rain—highlighting the contrast between Hollywood-style mob glamour and the less glamorous reality of underworld negotiations. A New Graphic Anthology on Kickstarter Brett is now launching a major new collection of his comics titled: “Family Business: An Offer You Can’t Refuse.” The book will include: 130+ pages of full-color comics More than 230 true crime strips Historical commentary explaining the real story behind each comic Additional artwork parodying mob businesses and underworld culture The project will be funded through a Kickstarter campaign beginning March 24, with the finished book expected to ship later in the year once printing is completed. Click here for 👉 Kickstarter Campaign:  Where to Find Brett Juliano You can explore Brett’s comics, books, and merchandise here: Dust Bunny Mafia Website:  Online Store:  Brett also shares his comics across social media platforms including Instagram, Threads, and Facebook groups focused on organized crime history. For fans of Mafia history, Dust Bunny Mafia offers a refreshing twist—true crime storytelling through comics that balance humor with serious historical research. As Gary notes during the interview, separating myth from reality is essential in mob history, and Brett’s work uses a creative medium to do exactly that. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 10 March 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, I sit down with retired FBI agent Geoff Kelly, a specialist in art theft investigations who inherited one of the most notorious unsolved cases in American history—the 1990 robbery at the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum. He recently wrote a book about this theft titled 13 Perfect Fugitives: The True Story of Mob, Murder, and the World’s Largest Art Heist. Kelly’s law enforcement career began as a New York City transit police officer before transitioning to the FBI. Like many agents, he initially sought violent crime work. Instead, he was assigned to economic crimes before eventually transferring to a violent crime squad. It was there that he encountered the Gardner case—a cold case largely untouched by senior agents at the time. The robbery itself remains extraordinary: two men posing as police officers gained entry to the museum and stole 13 works of art, including masterpieces by Rembrandt. More than three decades later, none of the works have been recovered. Inside the Gardner Heist Geoff explains how art theft is often misunderstood. Popular culture portrays refined, sophisticated criminals orchestrating elaborate capers. The reality, he says, is usually more opportunistic and frequently violent. Art theft often intersects with organized crime, drug trafficking, and even homicide. Massachusetts has a documented history of art-related crimes, and several individuals connected to the Gardner investigation met violent ends. The criminal underworld surrounding stolen art is less about wealthy collectors hiding paintings in private vaults and more about leverage—using artwork as collateral in criminal negotiations. The FBI’s Art Crime Evolution Following the 2003 looting of Iraq’s National Museum during the Baghdad invasion, the FBI formalized its Art Crime Team. Kelly discusses how intelligence gathering, informants, and international cooperation became central tools in recovering stolen artifacts. He emphasizes that solving art crimes often depends less on forensic breakthroughs and more on human intelligence. Informants remain essential, especially in cases where organized crime overlaps with high-value theft. Kelly also discusses his upcoming book, 13 Perfect Fugitives, which explores the intersections of mobsters, murder, and the illicit art market. Organized Crime and the Reality of Stolen Art Drawing on my own experience working organized crime in Kansas City, I found clear parallels between traditional mob rackets and art theft networks. The same structures—intimidation, secrecy, and violence—apply. Once a painting disappears into criminal circulation, it becomes a liability as much as an asset. Kelly challenges the myth that thieves profit easily from masterpieces. High-profile works are difficult to sell. The black-market art world is volatile and dangerous. In many cases, the artwork becomes bargaining collateral rather than a cash windfall. A Case Still Waiting for Closure More than 30 years later, the Gardner Museum still displays empty frames where the paintings once hung. Kelly remains committed to the idea that public awareness may eventually generate new leads.  The Gardner heist stands as both a cultural tragedy and a criminal mystery—one that continues to intersect with organized crime, violence, and international intrigue. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. Transcript [0:00] Hey, you guys, Gary Jenkins back here in studio Gangland Wire. Y’all know me. I’m a retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective and now podcaster and documentary filmmaker. I have in the studio today… Jeff Kelly, he’s a now-retired FBI agent. He was an expert in recovering stolen artifacts and art pieces. He was involved. He wasn’t involved in the original theft of the Boston art theft, the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum, but he ended up inheriting that case. So welcome, Jeff. Hi. Thanks, Gary. Nice to be here. And guys, I need to mention this right off the bat. Jeff has a book, 13 Perfect Fugitives, The True Story of the Mob, Murder, and the World’s Largest Art Heist. Be out on Amazon. I’ll have links down below in the show notes if you want to get that book. I think it would be pretty interesting. I was telling Jeff, I just interviewed Joe Ford, the million-dollar detective, the guy that goes after classic cars, and I read that book. I love these kind of caper kind of books and caper crimes. Those are the ones I like the best is the caper crimes. And Jeff is an expert at working caper crimes. And that’s what these are, capers. So Jeff, how did you get into this? Now you came on the FBI. You were a policeman before, I believe. So tell the guys a little bit about yourself and your FBI career. Yeah, I started out with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority Police in New York City. It was a transit cop. I did that for three years. And then I got into the FBI in October of 95. [1:30] And my goal was always, I wanted to work violent crime. That’s what drew me to law enforcement in the first place, working bank robberies and kidnappings and fugitives. I had to do my five years on working economic crime, telemarketing fraud. It was interesting, but not all that exciting. And finally in 2000, I got my transfer to the violent crime squad. And I loved working it. And I did it for my entire career from then on, right up until my retirement in 2024. But back then, art theft was considered a major theft violation, [2:01] and it was worked by the Violent Crime Squad. And so in 2002… My supervisor dumped this old moribund cold case in my lap. It was the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum heist. [2:15] Nobody wanted it on the squad, so they figured, let’s give it to the new guy. I was ecstatic to get it because I’d heard about it. I went to school in Boston. I went to Boston University and graduated the year before it happened, but I knew about it. [2:28] That’s how I started working this case, this particular case, and then the following year during the U.S., there was a, the U.S. And coalition forces invaded Baghdad in Iraq. And during a 36-hour period, more than 15,000 objects of very, very important cultural history were looted from the National Museum of Iraq. And it’s really one of the most important museums in the world in terms of our shared history. Kind of the cradle of civilization over there in the Tigers and Euphrates River. Yeah, and that was the time when the FBI kind of belatedly realized that there was no art crime team to investigate this. And of course, FBI agents have been working art theft like any other property crime since the beginning of the FBI’s existence, but there was no codified team. So they did a canvas for the team in 2004 and I applied for it because at this point I’d been working the Gardner case for a couple of years and really was fascinated by it and made the team. And so then over the next 20 years, we continued to expand the team both in size and in scope and in our intelligence base and knowledge base. And when I left the Bureau in 2024, it was and still is a tremendous team with a lot of very dedicated and professional agents and professional support. [3:51] Now, guys, if you don’t know about the Isabella Stewart Gardner case, there was a Netflix documentary on it a few years ago. It was an art museum in Boston. [4:01] Two guys showed up. They had Boston police uniforms on, and they got in. They basically, it was an armed robbery, and they took control of the museum. The guards were in there late at night and took these really valuable paintings out. I believe you told me earlier they were Remington paintings. We’ll get into that. And it was a violent crime. It was an armed robbery of paintings, and you told me about other armed robberies of paintings. I think you got into some other armed robberies of paintings. You always think of, as you mentioned before, the Thomas Crown Affair character that goes out and does these sophisticated art thefts. That’s not always true, is it? It’s never that way, but it doesn’t matter. Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story. Everybody wants to believe that art thefts are pulled off by the Thomas Crown Affairs and these gentlemen thieves repel in through skylights and do all that fancy stuff, put it in their underground lair. That’s just not the way it works. But if you look to art theft. [4:55] Massachusetts really is a cradle of art theft in this country, and it’s very unique. The first armed robbery of a museum occurred in Boston in 1972. It was committed by a guy named Al Monday, who was a prolific art thief. And they stole four pieces from the Worcester Art Museum in central Massachusetts with a gun. They ended up shooting the guard. And one of the pieces that they stole was a Rembrandt called St. Bartholomew. [5:26] And in keeping with the milieu of true art thieves, the paintings were stored on a pig farm just over the state line in Rhode Island. And when this Connecticut safecracker by the name of Chucky Carlo, who was looking at some serious time in prison for some of the crimes that he committed, when he found out that Al Monday had these paintings, he just simply kidnapped Al Monday and stuck a gun in his ribs and said he would kill him if he didn’t give him the paintings. which is no honor among thieves. And Al turned over the paintings, Chucky returned them, and he got a very significant break on his pending jail sentence. Right here in 1972, Boston thieves see Rembrandt as a valuable get-out-of-jail-free card. [6:09] And then if we jump forward three years to 1975, there was a very skilled art thief, really a master thief by the name of Miles Conner. I interviewed Miles for my book. It was very gracious of him to sit down with me for it. And he had robbed or committed a burglary of the Woolworth estate up in Maine, the family, the five and dime family magnets. And he got caught for it because he tried to sell those paintings to an undercover FBI agent. And so he was looking at 12 years in prison for it. And he was out on bail. And he reached out to a family friend who was a state trooper. And he asked him, how can I get away with this one? How can I get out of this? Because he was in serious trouble. The trooper’s response was meant to be hyperbolic. The trooper said, Miles, it’s going to take you a Rembrandt to get out of this one. [6:57] And so Miles said, okay, I’ll go get a Rembrandt. And he got a crew together and they did a daylight smash and grab at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston, just across the street from the Gardner. And they stole Rembrandt, the girl in a gold-trimmed cloak. [7:12] And he was able to return that painting. Instead of doing 12 years, he did 28 months. And he even managed to, he told me he even managed to get the $10,000 reward in the process. So you have this atmosphere in Massachusetts that Rembrandts are a valuable commodity, right? They can help you out in a jam. And so I think it’s no coincidence that in 1990, when the Gardner Museum heist came down, the Gardner Museum had this array of motion sensors all throughout the museum. It would alert to wherever you went, every gallery, hallway, whatever. [7:49] And we know from these motion sensors that after, as you said, the two guys went in disguised as cops and bluffed their way into the museum, they made a beeline for the Dutch room, which is the room of all things Rembrandt. They stole three Rembrandts. They stole a fourth piece called Landscape with an Obelisk, which was actually by Govard Flink, but it had been misattributed to Rembrandt until the mid 80s. And then they took a large Rembrandt oil-on-panel off the wall and it was recovered the next morning leaning against a piece of furniture. We believe they just overlooked it in the dark. So out of the 13 pieces taken, three were Rembrandt, a fourth was misattributed to Rembrandt, and there was going to be a 14th piece taken, which was also Rembrandt. It definitely falls into that theory that this was going to be a hold-on to these pieces for a while and see if you can use them for a break. [8:48] Interesting. Now, back in the 70s, for example, when somebody would work in an art robbery like that or an art theft, you got your tried and true ways of working a crime. You got to have sources, you got to have witnesses, and hopefully you can get a crime like this. You can get a source that says, hey, this guy, we had a guy in Kansas City that he was a fence for these kinds of guys. He had an antique auction and he took all this stuff and got it somewhere else. So at the time, just use your regular police methods. And what changed over the years as you’ve done this? Yeah, certainly we’ve become much more sophisticated with the techniques that we use. But at the end of the day, it’s always still going to be intelligence. But I found from working my entire career in violent crime, virtually my whole career in violent crime, the sources are crucial. Having a good informant can make and break a case. And working art theft investigations, you’re certainly going to have the same types of fences of informants, fences for stolen property and what they’re hearing about what organized crime guys are doing and what drug guys are doing. But it also opened up a whole new avenue of sources for me as working in art investigations, because now you’ve got pawn shops and gallery owners and auction houses, and they’re in a position to know when not only when stolen artwork is coming in, but also fakes and forgeries. We spoke about this, that. [10:16] Somebody comes in with one valuable piece that would be very difficult for somebody in his or her position to come across one piece like this, let alone a dozen of them. That really points to probably a fake. And so that’s really the key to solving these things is just having a good intelligence base who’s going to let us know about when something comes up that’s either stolen or it’s been forged. [10:43] Brings up a question. In my mind, did you ever work a gallery owner or a gallery [10:48] that then would filter in, knowingly filter in some fakes every once in a while? They couldn’t do it 100% of the time, but you could certainly make some extra money by filtering fakes out of it because many people would get it and they’d never know. Nobody would ever know. Listen, it is a really difficult thing when you’re working these types of crimes because unlike bank robber, you go into a bank and you stick them up with a gun and take them on. It’s not up to the government to be able to prove at trial that you knew that the bank was insured by the FDIC. You went in and you robbed it, you committed the offense. When you’re talking about interstate transportation of stolen property or possession of stolen property, there are what’s called specific intent crimes, meaning you have to prove the element of knowledge. You have to be able to prove that the person knew that that item was stolen. Not that it said it was stolen. and you had to show that they knew it. And that’s a really high hurdle to overcome. And typically what we do to try and prove that specific intent is we’re going to go through. [11:53] Recorded statements made to a source or to an undercover or emails or texts or something that we can show that this person knew that item was stolen. And so we would see that a lot in auction houses and galleries. There’s a lot of willful blindness where a lot of gallery owners and auction houses, they’re going to look the other way because it’s too lucrative to pass up. And in fact, in 2015, the art crime team, once we received information that ISIL or ISIS was using looted cultural property from Syria and Iraq as a form, a viable form of terrorism financing. And we put auction houses and gallery owners on notice in 2015, and we basically told them that if you’re selling objects of cultural patrimony or cultural heritage with a dubious provenance, like a wink and a nod, you may be unwittingly or wittingly funding terrorism. While we never charged anybody with it, hopefully it was an eye-opener that when you’re getting into this world, it’s not a victimless crime. There are very real victims involved. [13:07] And that’s one of the things that really is interesting about working our crime investigations. And I used to get ribbed by my friends who were not on the art crime team about [13:18] where like the wine and cheese squad were raised and everything. But our subjects are far from it. We’re dealing with organized crime, gangs, terrorists. This is no joke. These are serious individuals and the stakes are high. And in the Gardner case, three or four people that we believe were involved in the heist were murdered a year after the Gardner case crime occurred. Yeah, I was just going to go back to that a little bit, as we said before, a little bit like the Lufthansa case. All of a sudden, everybody that was involved in the theft. Started dropping like flies. So tell the guys about that. That is really interesting. [14:00] Yeah. So the two individuals that we believe went into the museum dressed as cops, just a week shy of the one-year anniversary, one of the guys was found dead in his apartment of an acute overdose of cocaine, intravenous. And his family admitted that he used Coke, but they said he was terrified of needles. He was scared of needles. So it really looked to be like a hotshot, an intentional overdose of cocaine. Two weeks later, the other guy who we believe went into the museum with him, his wife reported him missing. And a couple of weeks later, his bullet riddled body was recovered in the trunk of his car out by Logan Airport in East Boston. There was another member of that crew. These were all part of the same crew. This Carmelo Merlino, who was a Boston mobster, had an auto shop down in the Dorchester section of Boston. Another member of his crew, a guy named Bobby, six weeks after the heist, he brought in, he visited a jeweler in the downtown crossing jewelry district in Boston. He came in with this object and he unwrapped it. It was an eagle. [15:03] It was the finial from the Napoleonic flag that was stolen in the Gardner heist. And he asked the jeweler, how much is this thing worth? And the jeweler looked at it and he said, it’s worth nothing. Because he immediately recognized it as one of the people that had been stolen six weeks earlier from the Gardner heist. And then a few months later, Bobby was stabbed to death and nearly decapitated on the front porch of his house. And the responding police saw that his house had been broken into and ransacked like his killers had been looking for something. There was a fourth guy, Jimmy, who bragged to his girlfriend a few months after the heist that he had a couple of pieces from the Gardner Museum hidden in his attic. [15:47] And in February of 1990, 11 months after the heist, he was executed on his front porch in what the local police called a mob hit. So, yeah, these are the types of crimes that have a tendency to have a chilling effect on anybody who harbors any aspirations to come forward with information. Yeah, and we talked earlier a little bit about, like, the crime itself, and the statute of limitations is up on that, what you said, and the crime itself, but how we talked a little bit and explained to them about how this could be part of a RICO case. And you’ve got the murders and you’ve got the actual theft and whatever they did with the paintings, then maybe you could get over after a Bob boss as a Rico case. Tell the guys a little bit about doing that. Yeah. [16:32] I’ve heard it so many times in more than two decades that I worked the case and people would say, geez, why don’t people come forward? They’re just paintings. There are so many times they’re just paintings. They’re like, yeah, they are, but there’s two things about that. Number one, there’s some dead bodies on these paintings, three or four, and that there’s no statute of limitations for murder. And so if you implicate yourself in the theft or you implicate yourself in possessing or transporting these paintings at any time, the fear is that you’re then implicating yourself in a homicide. And the other aspect of this, which I think has a chilling effect, is the fact that transportation of stolen property is one of the predicate acts for RICO, racketeering influence corrupt organization case. And RICO is basically, Gary, is basically an entire organization is corrupt. Yeah. There’s no legitimate purpose. It’s what we think about the mob and the [17:27] FBI has taken down the mob in the past. So if you implicate yourself in stolen property and you’re part of organized crime, that’s one of the predicate acts for a RICO. And that’s basically life sentences. And so one of my goals in the years and years that I worked in this case was to try and convince people that you could come forward with information and the U S attorney’s offices, whether it’s up in Boston or new Haven or Philadelphia. [17:58] Would be willing to figure out a way to get the paintings back with immunity from prosecution for a RICO case. Look, that’s a high hurdle. That’s a high hurdle to convince somebody that if you come forward, you’re not going to get charged and you’re eligible for millions of dollars in reward. That’s a tough bill to swallow, but it’s the truth. I’m retired from the FBI now. I can tell you that it was, it’s a, it was, and still is a bona fide offer. And that’s one of the goals that I’ve always tried to impress on anyone is the opportunity to become a millionaire without going to jail. There you go, Jeff. Can you, now you’re not with the Bureau anymore. Can you go out, if you could go out and find them and bring them in, could you collect that reward? I would certainly hope so. [18:48] I can’t tell you how many of my friends thought that I had some of these paintings stashed in my basement. Waiting for retirement to go turn them in the next day. I think half the guys I worked with were expecting to see me pull into the parking lot of the FBI. [19:01] Big package, but no. But yeah, I suppose I could. By this point, I can tell you the amount of my very being that I put into this case over two days. Yeah. I just would love to see these paintings go back just because they need to be back at the museum. That’s where they belong. Now, these crimes, they seem, You said there’s a lot of murders attached to this. They seem a little boring. Did you have any exciting moments trying to pop anybody or do any surveillances? I know we did a big surveillance of a bunch of junkies that were going around stealing from small museums around the Midwest. And we follow them here in Kansas City. And they would have been pretty exciting had we had a confrontation with them. Did you have any exciting moments in this? It actually was a fascinating case. And for the first, there’s the really boring aspects of this job and tedious aspects. And I would say that in my, two decades working this case, I probably did, I don’t know, 50, 60, 70 consent searches, searching in attics and basements and crawling through crawl spaces and just getting sweaty and covered in cobwebs. But the break in the case for me came in 2009 when one of the guys who was part of Merlino’s crew who was deceased, his niece came forward to me and told me that the paintings. Some of them had been hidden up in this guy’s hide at his house up in Maine. I went up to Maine with Anthony Amore, who’s the director of security for the Gardner Museum. We worked on this case together for years. [20:29] And then we found that hide. And then we interviewed, right from there, we went and interviewed Guarenti. That’s the guy, Bobby Guarenti. We interviewed his widow and she broke down and admitted that he once showed her the paintings and she gave them to a guy down in Connecticut. And we identified that guy and we interviewed him. My name is Bobby Gentile. He’s a made member of the Philly Mob. He got straightened out with his crew back in the late 90s. [20:54] And he refused to cooperate. And then that’s where we really just started getting, using a lot of ingenuity to try and break it. And an agent down in the New Haven office, a guy by the name of Jamie Lawton, he joined our team and we started working this case. And he had a source who knew Gentile, Bobby Gentile, and the source started buying drugs from Gentile. Ah, there we go. We ended up arresting Gentile and we did a search warrant at his house. And it was crazy. Like we recovered, I want to say seven handguns, loaded handguns lying all over the place. He had a pump action shotgun hanging by the front door. He had high explosives. We had to evacuate the house and call him the bomb squad. But the interesting thing was he had the March 19th, 1990 edition of the Boston Herald with headlines about the Gardner heist and tucked inside that newspaper was a handwritten list of all the stolen items. With what looked like their black market values. This is in the house of a guy who swore up and down that he’d never heard of the Gardner Museum. And we were able to figure out who wrote the list. It was written by none other than Al Monday, who’s the guy that did the first armed robbery of a museum, of a Rembrandt. And we interviewed him and he told us that he wrote that list for Bobby Gentile and his buddy up in Maine, Bobby Garanti, because they had a buyer for the paintings and they wanted to know what they were worth. [22:24] So yeah, and then Gentile took 30 months. [22:28] He wouldn’t cooperate. And while he was incarcerated, we turned two of his closest friends to becoming sources. And so when he got out of prison in February or April of 2014, they started talking to him and talked about the gardener and they said they might know somebody who’d want to buy him. That’s how we then introduced an undercover agent. Gentile was introduced to Tony, this undercover FBI agent. Over six months, they had long talks about selling the paintings. Unfortunately, before Gentile would sell the paintings, he wanted to do a drug deal first, which we couldn’t allow to happen. We can’t let drugs walk on the street. So we had to take it down. And although we’d seized all these guns from Gentile back in 2012, he told the sources the FBI didn’t get all of his guns. Because of that disturbing comment, one of the sources asked Gentile if he could buy a gun for him. And Gentile sold him a loaded 38. So we arrested him again. And he still refused to cooperate. I don’t respect what he did for a living or a lot of the things that he did, but you do have to respect his adherence to his values. However, misguided they may have been, he took the code of omerta, the code of silence to heart, and he took it to his grave. He died, I think, in 2021 after going to prison a second time. [23:50] While we never got any paintings back, it was a tremendous ride, and I’m confident they will come back. It’s just going to be a question of when. Yeah, that kind of brings up the question that you hear people speculate. Did you ever run across this? Is there actually any rich old guys or an Arab sheik or somebody that buys stuff like this and then really keeps it and never shows it to anybody? Does that unicorn really exist? everybody wants that to be true i know virtually it’s not yeah there’s there’s never been a case of some wealthy what we call the doctor no theory some some reclusive billionaire with his underground lair filled with all the illicit stolen treasures of the world yeah that’s it’s never happened yeah i guess you never say never but but no look the majority statistically about three-quarters of everyone that collects art in this country does it for, and I assume it’s probably worldwide, does it for the investment potential. There’s a lot of money to be made in collecting art. It rarely, if ever, drops in value. So that’s why people collect art. If there’s somebody who has a particular piece that they want so badly that they’re going to commission its theft, it’s more the stuff of Hollywood. It could happen, but we’ve never seen that happen yet. Interesting. [25:14] We did have one case here where we had a medical doctor and he had it on the wall of his house. And it was, I believe it was a Western artist named Remington that these junkies stole out of Omaha. But it was such a minor piece that he could show it to anybody and they wouldn’t. They would say, oh, that’s cool. You got a Remington. [25:30] There’s plenty of those around. And he could afford a real deal Remington anyhow. So it wasn’t that big a deal. And that’s really what it comes down to is that art, high-end art does get stolen. It gets stolen quite often. The art market is about $60 billion, and the FBI, we estimated about $6 to $8 billion of that is illicit, whether it’s theft or fakes and forgeries. It’s a tremendous market, but it’s mostly second and third tier items. [26:02] Really valuable, well-known pieces. They do get stolen, but that’s the easy part. The easy part is stealing it. The hard part is monetizing it. That’s why you very rarely see recidivism among art thieves, high-end art thieves, because you do it once, and now you’re stuck with the thing. It’s easier to steal something else. You got to go out and boost fur coats and stuff to make a living. Exactly. Do a jewelry store robbery down there and make a living. And that’s exactly the point. That’s why you’re seeing a sea change in terms of art thefts, museum thefts. The Louvre was a great example of that. Dresden green vault robbery where 100 million euros in gems were stolen back in 2019 yeah. [26:45] Gems and jewelry, it can be broken down. It’s going to greatly diminish their value, but you can recut a gem. You can melt down the setting. You can monetize it for a greatly diminished value, but at least you can monetize it. You can’t cut up a Rembrandt into smaller pieces. [27:02] It’s only valuable as a whole complete piece. Yeah. I’m just thinking about that. We got a couple of guys, Jerry Scalise and Art Rachel in Chicago, flew to London, robbed a really valuable piece, the Lady Churchill’s diamond or something, I don’t remember, but really valuable piece and mailed it to somebody on their way to the airport and then got caught when they got back to Chicago and brought back to London and did 14 years in England and they never gave up that piece and nobody could, it never appeared anywhere, but it was just cut up and they didn’t make hardly any money off of it. Yeah. Look, there’s a, there’s much more profitable ways to. Yeah. To make an illicit living than stealing high-end artwork, but it does still get stolen. And that’s one of the cruel ironies when you’re talking about art theft is if somebody has a $20,000 piece of jewelry or a very expensive watch, they’re most likely going to lock it up in a safe in their bedroom or something. But you have a $10 million piece of artwork, you probably got it on the mantle. You’ve got it over the fireplace or in the front foyer of your house and probably doesn’t have a passive alarm system protecting it or security screws to keep it from being taken off the wall because people want to show it off. Yeah. It’s way too enticing. [28:24] Really? So, yes, you need to keep the word out there and keep this in people’s minds. And I’m sure the museum tries to do this in some ways in order, hopefully, that maybe somebody will say, oh. Yeah. [28:38] I think I saw that somewhere in this news program or on this podcast. [28:42] I’ll put some pictures on the podcast when I end up editing this. No, please do, Kerry. And that’s the thing. That’s the basis for the title of my book is it really is a fugitive investigation. And that’s how I work this case is fugitives and perfect fugitives because they’re not like their human counterparts. They’re not going to get tripped up on the silly things that we need to do as human beings, getting a driver’s license or whatnot. Yeah. [29:09] And so that’s how I worked the case. The FBI was really, I was always impressed with the FBI’s support that they gave me on this investigation. We did billboard campaigns and social media and a lot of things to get these images out there to the public, hoping it might resonate with somebody. And that’s really my goal for this book. I felt it should be written. I felt it’s an important case. Certainly, it’s something that I wanted to write about. It’s something that’s very important to me. [29:42] But it’s yet another attempt to apprehend these fugitives. And I’m hopeful that somebody, it might resonate with somebody. Somebody’s going to see something. And there’s so much disinformation and misinformation that’s out there in the media about this case. People are endlessly, all these armchair detectives, and I don’t say it in a deprecating way. Good for them. Work as hard as you can. But if you want to work this case from your armchair, great. but you should be going off accurate information because there’s a lot of bad information that’s out there on the internet. And if you want to help out, if you want to collect that $10 million reward, great, but you should be going off the most accurate factual information that’s available. Yeah. And you probably ought to go down to the deep seamy underbelly of Philadelphia or Boston or somewhere and get involved with a mob and then work your way up and make different cocaine deals and everything. And eventually you might be trusted enough that some might say, oh yeah, I’ve got those in this basement. I would suggest there’s better hobbies. [30:47] That could be hazardous to your health. I wouldn’t recommend it. Yes, it could. All right. Jeffrey Kelly, the book is 13 Perfect Tuesdays. Those are the paintings that were stolen that you’ll see on the podcast on the YouTube channel. The true story of the mob, murder, and the world’s largest art heist. Jeffrey, thanks so much for coming on to tell us about this. Thanks, Gary. Thanks for having me.

Transcribed - Published: 9 March 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, I sit down with retired FBI agent Geoff Kelly, a specialist in art theft investigations who inherited one of the most notorious unsolved cases in American history—the 1990 robbery at the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum. He recently wrote a book about this theft titled 13 Perfect Fugitives: The True Story of Mob, Murder, and the World's Largest Art Heist. Kelly’s law enforcement career began as a New York City transit police officer before transitioning to the FBI. Like many agents, he initially sought violent crime work. Instead, he was assigned economic crimes before eventually transferring to a violent crime squad. It was there that he encountered the Gardner case—a cold case largely untouched by senior agents at the time.   The robbery itself remains extraordinary: two men posing as police officers gained entry to the museum and stole 13 works of art, including masterpieces by Rembrandt. More than three decades later, none of the works have been recovered.   Inside the Gardner Heist 4   Geoff explains how art theft is often misunderstood. Popular culture portrays refined, sophisticated criminals orchestrating elaborate capers. The reality, he says, is usually more opportunistic and frequently violent. Art theft often intersects with organized crime, drug trafficking, and even homicide.   Massachusetts has a documented history of art-related crimes, and several individuals connected to the Gardner investigation met violent ends. The criminal underworld surrounding stolen art is less about wealthy collectors hiding paintings in private vaults and more about leverage—using artwork as collateral in criminal negotiations.   The FBI’s Art Crime Evolution   Following the 2003 looting of Iraq’s National Museum during the Baghdad invasion, the FBI formalized its Art Crime Team. Kelly discusses how intelligence gathering, informants, and international cooperation became central tools in recovering stolen artifacts.   He emphasizes that solving art crimes often depends less on forensic breakthroughs and more on human intelligence. Informants remain essential, especially in cases where organized crime overlaps with high-value theft.   Kelly also discusses his upcoming book, 13 Perfect Fugitives, which explores the intersections of mobsters, murder, and the illicit art market.   Organized Crime and the Reality of Stolen Art   Drawing on my own experience working organized crime in Kansas City, I found clear parallels between traditional mob rackets and art theft networks. The same structures—intimidation, secrecy, and violence—apply. Once a painting disappears into criminal circulation, it becomes a liability as much as an asset.   Kelly challenges the myth that thieves profit easily from masterpieces. High-profile works are difficult to sell. The black-market art world is volatile and dangerous. In many cases, the artwork becomes bargaining collateral rather than a cash windfall.   A Case Still Waiting for Closure   More than 30 years later, the Gardner Museum still displays empty frames where the paintings once hung. Kelly remains committed to the idea that public awareness may eventually generate new leads.   The Gardner heist stands as both a cultural tragedy and a criminal mystery—one that continues to intersect with organized crime, violence, and international intrigue.   Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 9 March 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, Host retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins dives into the shadowy intersection of organized gambling and college athletics through the story of Frank “Lefty” Rosenthal.  During the early 1960s, Rosenthal built his reputation by identifying weaknesses in sports systems, particularly among vulnerable college athletes. He met one who could not be bought, Mickey Bruce of Oregon. At the center of this story is a little-known but pivotal attempt at a fix involving the Oregon Ducks. Rosenthal and his associate, David Budin, believed they had found an opening, but they ran headlong into the integrity of Oregon halfback Mickey Bruce. Bruce flatly refused the bribe, setting off a chain reaction that would help expose a much wider pattern of corruption in college sports.   I break down how this wasn’t an isolated incident but part of a nationwide effort by gamblers to influence outcomes and exploit young athletes. The episode explores the mechanics of organized gambling, attempts to fix games, and why college sports became such an attractive target for mob-connected bookmakers. The story reaches a dramatic turning point during U.S. Senate hearings on gambling in college athletics, where Mickey Bruce publicly identified Lefty Rosenthal as one of the men who tried to corrupt him. It’s a rare moment in mob history—one where a gambler is named in open testimony by a player who refused to bend.   From there, I trace Rosenthal’s continued rise in the gambling world, from Miami to Las Vegas, where he would help shape modern sports betting while repeatedly managing to stay one step ahead of serious legal consequences. Rosenthal’s story raises enduring questions about accountability, the limits of law enforcement, and why some figures seem untouchable. I close the episode by reflecting on Rosenthal’s legacy—and on Mickey Bruce’s quiet heroism.   Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. 0:03 The Story Begins 4:14 The Bribe Attempt 7:58 The Aftermath of Scandal 12:26 The Rise of Lefty 14:34 College Sports and Corruption 18:58 The Online Gambling Boom 22:26 The Fall of Adrian McPherson 24:24 Mickey Bruce’s Legacy [0:00] Hey, hey, all you wiretappers, back here in the studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins, a retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective. I worked a mob for about 14 years, and now I tell some mob stories, as many as I can find. And we all know Lefty Rosenthal. We all know Robert De Niro played him as Ace Rothstein in the film movie Casino. And that movie, part of the reason it was so good that Nicholas Pelleggi, the screenwriter, and wrote the book, was able to spend hours and hours interviewing Lefty Rosenthal in real life. He had gone to Florida by then and it seemed like the mob wasn’t after him anymore. They had one attempted bombing of him, if you remember. [0:41] So it was a really good movie. There’s really good depiction of that era and that system that they had going out there. Let’s go back on Lefty Rosenthal’s history to a guy that he couldn’t corrupt. Lefty Rosenthal thought he could corrupt anybody, but he found a guy that he couldn’t corrupt. It was really one of his early cases where law enforcement, the FBI, and other state law enforcement agencies figured out Lefty Rosenthal was somebody, and he was a pretty big gambler. He was a nationwide gambler. In 1960, the Oregon Ducks had a pretty good team. What a name, the Oregon Ducks. They had a man named Dave Grayson and the quarterback with Dave Gross in the backfield. They had a 5’3 All-American receiver named Cleveland Jones. What a name, Cleveland Jones. They went 7-2-1. They lost to Michigan, and they also lost to eventual Rose Bowl champ Washington. But this was good enough to gain a Liberty Bowl invite to play Penn State. Oregon lost the bowl and played in two feet of snow and freezing temperatures in Philadelphia that year. [1:50] But the biggest news of the season was made during their trip to Ann Arbor to play Michigan. They had this potential All-American player named Mickey Bruce, who really was obscure compared to especially this Dave Gross or this Cleveland Jones, who was an unusual player. He was a president of his fraternity. He was a former Little League World Series star. He was the son of an attorney. He was a team captain. He played halfback and defensive back. And there was two professional gamblers came to Ann Arbor that year and they didn’t know much about this guy, but they did know, one of them’s name was Budin, David Budin, and the other one was Frank Lefty Rosenthal. They didn’t know much about Mickey Bruce, but they had a connection to him. A guy who played for the Oregon State basketball team named Jimmy Granada and knew Boudin from when they were little kids growing up on the basketball courts in New York City. Now, Granada told Mickey that he had two friends staying at the team hotel and they needed tickets. This time, players could then were given tickets and they could turn around and sell them to people. Boudin ended up finding him and introduced himself and said he was Jimmy Granada’s friend and invited Mickey up to the room and said, I’m the guy that needs a couple of tickets. [3:15] Mickey was a little bit hesitant, but didn’t know this guy. He’s probably got a New York accent, probably slick, more than likely. He hesitated at first and booted and said, just take a few minutes. I just want to get you to go and get those tickets. And so he goes him, so he follows him into the room and he finds Lefty Rosenthal waiting there, who he doesn’t know and won’t even have any idea who he is till much later. So they chatted a little bit about the game as people will and ask him questions about the team. And Rosenthal mentioned that Oregon was a six-point underdog. He said, do you don’t think a player could be bribed? Mickey said, I suppose they could. Buden then cut in. He said, Mickey, he said, what do you think it would cost to ensure that Michigan won by at least eight points? Mickey plays along. He says, you’re the big-time gamblers. You should know. So Buden said, about $5,000. And Mickey said, that’s probably fine. [4:14] Mickey said, let me check into this. And he said, I’m late for a team meeting and I got to get going. So they made plans to meet later on about 9 p.m. Mickey was no fool or small town rube. His father had been a Chicago attorney and he now practice in El Cajon, California. [4:31] He raced to catch up with his teammates and told an assistant coach about the bribe who told the athletic director, who then called in the Michigan State Police, who called in the FBI. And they told Mickey to go ahead and show up at 9 p.m. at the meeting in the hotel room. They don’t want to apprehend Buden and Rosenthal right now. They want to get some more information and really get a real solid bribery attempt out of them. So acting on the advice of these cops, Mickey goes back to the hotel room that evening. [5:00] Buden and Rosenthal start talking to him. And so they gave him tips about how to carry out this scheme without attracting any attention. Buden and Rosenthal say, we’ll give you an extra $5,000 and you can get the quarterback, Dave Gross, to go along with this scheme. He said, Mickey, you just need to let some pass receivers get behind you once in a while and let them run up the score a little bit. And you’re not going to win anyhow, more than likely. Get the quarterback to call a few wrong plays nobody really ever noticed. And he said, I’ll give you each $5,000 after the game if you’ll do that. He also offered Mickey $100 a week just to call him at his house down in Florida and update him about the health of Oregon’s team before weekly betting lines were released makes you wonder how many guys did Rosenthal have calling him to update him on injuries and everything on different college teams and professional too. Because I know from doing a story before that Ocardo and a lot of the Chicago gangsters really valued Rosenthal’s tips on making their football bets. He seemed to have some kind of an inside track. [6:08] As he got ready to leave, Mickey said, oh, wait a minute. I gave you those tickets. You got to pay me, which were only worth about three bucks each. And so Lefty gave him 50 bucks for the two tickets. Mickey would remember later that he had to roll $100 bills in his pocket, which is typical for a high-flyer, high-rolling kind of a dude like that, have a big roll of cash in your pocket. And then you reach down in, peel some off so everybody can see how much money you got in your pocket. Rosenthal said, hey, I got to leave tonight, but see my friend Buden in the morning, David Buden, and he’ll give you the money. Mickey agreed, went back to his room. The next morning, while eating breakfast with his teammates, he sees a state trooper leading Buden out of the hotel in handcuffs, and then missed Lefty Rosenthal, who, as he had told them the night before, the Lefty was going to be leaving, and they had made a good bribery attempt. I don’t know what the police were waiting on. They were trying to make an even better case or something. I guess they probably They wanted him to go back in and catch them all together with the money. But then lefty left, and they went ahead and pulled the trigger early. You never know how these things work out exactly and what was at play. During the game, Mickey, I tell you what, Mickey played his heart out. He got an interception for a touchdown. It didn’t make any difference. Michigan won easily, 21 to nothing, and easily covered the six-point spread. [7:28] A player will later be asked about this, and part of the reason was he said the coach had called a late-night team meeting and told them about this bribery attempt and asked them if any of them had been approached. Of course, everybody said no. Whether they had or not, they’re going to say no. But this player said it really shook us. We just had no rhythm. We just couldn’t get together for that game. [7:50] Buden, when he was arrested, it turns out he was arrested for registering at a hotel under a fake name. He ends up paying some little fine and leaving town. [7:58] Lefty was long gone the next day. It’s possible that Rosenthal and Buden knew that just attempting this bribe might have the negative impact on Oregon’s chances against the spread anyhow. All we know for sure is they got off scot-free in the end, and Buden paid a $100 fine or whatever. Lefty, but he did get exposed because Mickey Bruce, he didn’t have any idea of what he was getting drawn into, but it became a nationwide scandal. Basketball and football games, college games were being influenced on a wide scale by these gambling interests and Lefty Rosenthal was right in the middle of it all. Part of the McClellan committee, Senator McClellan of Arkansas convened his select committee just to investigate gambling and college athletics later that year. Because of this Michigan interaction with Lefty and college players and attempted bribery, they brought Mickey Bruce in. September the 8th, 1961, there’s a Senate hearing witness table. And sitting at that table is Mickey Bruce at one side and Frank Lefty Rosenthal at the other. And this was the same Frank he’d met at this hotel room. And he literally fingered Rosenthal as one of the men who attempted to bribe him. That photo that I’ve got in there, if you’re on YouTube, Rosenthal fled the fifth, of course. [9:27] Committee here, meetings like that, really what they’re good for is to stir law enforcement and bring people out and bring out and get the public riled up against organized crime. That’s what McClellan’s committee was really good for. They had several of those committees that finally got local authorities and the FBI to start looking at organized crime. And in particular, this is the mother’s milk of organized crime by now is gambling. And college sports gambling was the thing at the time. There was some pro teams going on, but it didn’t have near the action going down on it that the college teams had. There was a lot more interest in college and a lot more college games every week. Later on the next year, Wayne County, Michigan District Attorney’s Office wanted Mickey Bruce to come back to Detroit and swear out a complaint against the people that tried to bribe him and name him and give statements and everything. Bruce, by then, he didn’t really want to mess with it. He was playing football. He had his fraternity work. He had to keep his grades up because he was going to law school. [10:32] But they had a game against Ohio State that November. Michigan authorities thought, just come in and see us when you’re here. But he was out for the season by then. He had separated his shoulder, and he never really played again when they were playing Stanford earlier that year. He wasn’t going to go back to Michigan. His coaches tried to get him to cooperate, but he said, I’m done with the whole matter. In an interview, he said, as far as I’m concerned, this whole thing should have been dead a month ago after it happened. He conferred with his father, and they both said they can’t really make him do that. [11:05] He said, I didn’t have time to go. I’ve got all these school activities that I’m doing, and I just don’t want to go. And he said, the Michigan police botched this thing from the start. They should have stuck around, and they should have got Rosenthal before they left town. There were several things they should have done, and it was a poorly run investigation that probably wasn’t going to succeed anyhow. And he said it had been over a year, and he said, I don’t really remember exactly what happened. I understand all that, and he could have helped him make a case, but there’s an obscure a paragraph in Lefty Rosenthal’s FBI file. And it might explain a little more about why Mickey Bruce didn’t testify in a criminal trial against Lefty. It already testified and pointed him out in the McClellan hearing. But right after that, his mother received a telephone call in her home in El Cajon, California. Now, there’s some, it says name redacted, but you can easily fill in the name. 1961, September 1961, name redacted, El Cajon, received a phone call from an unidentified male asking if, name redacted, can you fill in, Mickey Bruce, name redacted, answered in the negative, at which time this person uttered an oath and added, you’re going to get it, and so is he. I think it’s pretty easy to fill in the names of Mickey Bruce and his mother easily. [12:26] Bruce stayed home Oregon went to Columbus Lost to the Buckeyes again Wayne County DA Dropped any cases Against Buden and Rosenthal For lack of evidence Lefty will continue During these years To run his sports book Out of Florida He’ll continue Traveling around the country And making contact With people in the College sports world Trying to bribe players And coaches And gather information And. [12:50] Cops in Miami were watching Lefty by then, 1960, New Year’s Eve. Police Chief Martin Dardis of Miami knocked on Rosenthal’s door with a group of guys and found him in his bedroom in his pajamas. He had a telephone in one hand and a small black book in the other. Dardis took the phone away from him and started answering the calls, and they were from bettors all around the country. He remembered that there was one guy named Amos who wanted to place a bet on a football game on New Year’s Day. And Dardis handed the phone to Rosenthal who told the guy that was calling in says you’re talking to a cop you stupid SOB. [13:28] During that raid, Rosenthal complained he’d paid $500 to keep local police from harassing his bookmaking operations. He said, you guys must be kidding. [13:37] Evidently, you didn’t get your piece. About a year later, February 1962, after the Senate hearings, detective knocked on his door again in Miami. He came to the door sporting dapper attire, which he was a really dapper dresser, and he had painted fingernails, according to a newspaper account. He said, I’ve been expecting you. [13:58] The detectives arrested Rosenthal, not for bribing Mickey Bruce, but he and his friend Buden faced charges in North Carolina for offering $500 to Ray Paprocki, a basketball player at NYU, and wanted to shave points in a 1960 NCAA tournament against West Virginia. During this time, authorities had uncovered a nationwide network of fixtures who conspired to influence hundreds of college basketball games over a five-year period. In the end, 37 players from 22 schools were arrested on charges relating to [14:31] port shaving. Man, that’s, boy, that was huge. We’ve got these guys going down now periodically that are getting involved because of the apps. And we’re going to get a little more into that. This gambling thing and college athletics especially, but even pro athletics. It’s a corrupting force, guys. I know a lot of you like to bet on games, but it really, there’s a real potential for corrupting the game. And in the end, if they keep it up and people keep corrupting these games, it’s just going to be like wrestling. You’ll just, somebody will control who’s going to win and who’s going to lose in every contest. That’s what these gamblers would like to get, and they’d make all the money. [15:08] Rosenthal pleaded no contest. He got a $6,000 fine for trying to fix this NYU-West Virginia game. He claimed that David Buden gave up his name and that he said later on, trying to clear himself of that, that that wasn’t really me. David Buden did it, and he would have given up his mother’s stay away from what he had to face. That was when the Nevada Gaming Control Board was after him. [15:33] In 1967, Rosenthal, under the watch of the Chicago Outfit, started acting like his outfit bosses and bring outfit tactics down to Miami. He started intimidating rival bookies and others in Miami who incurred his wrath. He ordered bombings of the territory. I interviewed the son of a CIA operative named, his father’s name was Ricardo Monkey Morales. Look back and see if you can find that interview of the son of Monkey Morales. I think Monkey Morales was probably in the title. And he told us about his father’s relationship with Rosenthal. He told him that Lefty had told his dad that he represented organized crime out of Chicago. And he said that Morales said that Rosenthal paid him. He said that Rosenthal paid Monkey Morales to blow up Alfie’s newsstand with a bookie joint in the back. He also had him, they had him blow up a car and a boat owned by a well-known jewelry thief that the mob was pressuring to do some burglaries for them. He also had him explode a bomb. I remember this, explode a bomb in the front yard of a Miami police officer trying to show his power. I guess this guy was messing with him or something, trying to tell everybody he was connected to the outfit and don’t mess with me. [16:50] Morales would also claim that he’d witnessed Rosenthal meeting with Tony Splatron in Miami in 1967. [16:58] 1970s, he goes to Las Vegas at the request of the outfit, which we all know. We’ll go back over it a little bit. Even legitimate gambling people will say he invented the sportsbook industry in Las Vegas. They didn’t really do that before. And Sports Illustrated once called him the greatest living expert on sports gambling. He’ll die in 2008 of natural causes down in Florida after all the skimming investigation went down and people started going to grand juries and being indicted and going to trials and everything. All the mobsters did. Several people in Las Vegas did. A guy out of the Tropicanda who was Kansas City’s man, Joe Augusto, and a guy named Carl Thomas who worked at both casinos and helping in skimming and several other guys that worked in the casino business. But guess who never was indicted? And guess who never even was called in for an interview? And guess who just hid out? Lefty Rosenthal. Makes you wonder, doesn’t it? Jane Ann Morrison of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. Finally, they get an FBI agent to confirm to her that he was a top echelon informant during all this time. They try to blow him up in his Cadillac, another famous attempted mob hit. A lot of people speculate on that. They’ll always say it was Kansas City because they thought he was an informant all along. and never liked him and never trust him because he really, he brought all the heat down out in Las Vegas. Now, the heat was coming anyhow, but he maybe brought it a little bit quicker. [18:24] There’s a former federal prosecutor out of Las Vegas that once said, it’s been said you should never speak ill of the dead, but there are exceptions to the rule, and Frank Rosenthal is one of those exceptions. He is an awful human being. [18:38] Dave Budin, the guy who first approached Mickey Bruce, Yes. Continues in the sportsbook game and draws his son Steve into it. And by the 1990s, the online betting industry has taken over from your neighborhood bookie and a mob just running everything. It’s a multi-billion dollar thorn in the side of the U.S. authorities. [18:59] 1998, federal prosecutors indicted Miami gambler David Buden, same man that tried to bribe Mickey Bruce, and indicted Buden’s son for running something called SDB Global. [19:13] Which later became SBG. Federal authorities prosecuted Boudin under a federal anti-gambling statute because SDB Global was incorporated in Costa Rica, but it was based in Miami. Pleaded guilty and got a $750,000 fine. In Kansas City, during those same years, the son of the feared mafia capo, if you will, Willie the Rat Comisano, Willie Comisano Jr., They headed up a group of bookies that contained the names and sons and other extended relatives of many Kansas City Mafia members out of the 50s and 60s. And they were using the internet and dealing with either SDB Global or one of the other sports betting sites that sprung up in Costa Rica because they were all over the place. Budins were high flyers in this doing business out of Costa Rica. And they were making a lot of money, a lot of money. In 2004, SBG comes to the attention of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. They sent an undercover in, and they asked an SBG operator why the company required customers to call before wiring each new deposit. And he got him on tape to say, because we change the names in the countries of the middlemen all the time. The agent suggested that the process made it uneasy, and the employee of SBG said, you don’t have to worry about it. Lots of people do it. [20:35] Well, during this investigation, they also found there was a Florida State star quarterback named Adrian McPherson was placing bets on games that he was playing in and ends up getting dismissed from the Florida State Seminoles football team. He was a rising star, a rising young star quarterback. In the investigation, they learned he’d already lost $8,000 to a local bookie who’d cut him off. He was giving him, extending him credit. Guy owed him $8,000 and he cut him off. So that’s when he turned to online SBG sites. Now, you have to pay up front. So he was getting some money to gamble somehow, and he tried to hide this activity by using a roommate, but a review of his phone records showed several calls to STB, and one time was, like, just before, there were, like, two in a row. And that’s how they were, like, trying to hide it and then pass it off to make it look like there was somebody else making the bet. He eventually gets arrested. He pleads to lesser charges. But one of those charges was check forgery. And when a gambler starts losing, many times they’ll turn to those white-collar crimes like check forgery, embezzlement. They’ll start stealing from their work, shoplifting, drug dealing. They can do anything like a junkie, man. They’ll do anything to keep gambling. [21:52] I once knew a guy said he couldn’t even walk into a casino because he just starts getting a rush. He just can’t stay away from the machines once he walks in. So he totally has to stay out. Adrian McPherson, he was also an all-star baseball player. Even though he is kicked out of college ball for betting on his own team, he then gets drafted. The New Orleans Saints in 2005 draft him. They want him as their starting quarterback. But they also drafted a guy named Drew Brees, who ended up leading him to the Super Bowl in 2006. [22:27] Now, later in that season or during that season, the Tennessee Titan mascot will accidentally hit McPherson with a golf cart. He sues him for several million dollars. The following year, he does this. He’s been injured by this golf cart. I don’t know if it wasn’t a career injury, obviously, but they also the gambling thing. And the following year, he appears with the Grand Rapid Rampage AFL team. Then he goes to a Canadian team. Then he plays on a variety of arena football teams, a different one every year almost. And finally, in 2018, the Jacksonville Sharks, which is an arena team, releases him. His gambling led him to a free fall into obscurity. He was on his way up to life-changing generational wealth, and the gambling just got him. [23:17] Let’s go back a minute, you know, all these, I’ll be telling all these stories about these low rents and degenerate gamblers. Let’s go back to the incorruptible Mickey Bruce. He was injured during 1961 during his senior year. His last game was in 1961 against Stanford. His three seasons of Oregon, he rushed 29 times for 128 yards. At one touchdown, he caught 10 passes for 113 yards and three touchdowns. Defensively, he intercepted six passes in the last season, returned six punts for an 11-yard average. He ends up being drafted in the 24th round of the 1962 AFL draft by the Oakland Raiders, but he never pursued a professional football career. Instead, he followed his father’s footsteps. He went to law school and became a lawyer out in California. [24:08] Michael J. Bruce, his story goes really beyond the gridiron. He’s on that very short list of individuals who have implicated gangsters, pointed them out in court, and survived. And he prospered from then on under [24:20] his own name. He didn’t go in witness protection or anything like that. He might not have agreed to prosecute Lefty going back to Michigan for that other case, but he did stand up and point at Lefty Rosenthal and say, he’s the one that tried to bribe me. 1981, Mickey Bruce will get the Leo Harris Award. Presented to alumni, alumnus Letterman, who have been out of college for 20 years and have demonstrated continuous service and leadership to the university. Some of the other, Alberto Salazar went to Oregon. He got it. A guy named Dan Fouts, I know that name, Johnny Robinson, Bill Dellinger. [25:02] So guys, it’s much better to get a Lifetime Achievement Award for doing good than to get a car bomb or to die in obscurity. So thanks, guys. That’s the story of Lefty Rosenthal and his earlier years before the skimming and really the story of a tribute to Mickey Bruce, a guy that stood up and did the right thing when it needed to be done. Thanks, guys. And don’t forget, stand up and go to your computer and order one of my books online or rent one of my movies or look at my website and see what you like there. Make a donation, if you will. I got expenses. Don’t usually ask for. I got ads. They just cover some things and then other things. Some of these FOIA things cost a lot of money and got a few expenses. Anyhow, so thanks a lot, guys. But mostly, I appreciate your loyalty and all the comments that you make on my YouTube channel and on the Gangland Wire podcast group. It’s inspiring. It really, truly is inspiring. It keeps me coming back. Thanks, guys.

Transcribed - Published: 2 March 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, I dive into the shadowy intersection of organized gambling and college athletics through the story of Frank "Lefty" Rosenthal, one of the most influential—and elusive—figures in the American gambling underworld. During the early 1960s, Rosenthal built his reputation by identifying weaknesses in sports systems, particularly among college athletes vulnerable to pressure, temptation, and cash.   He met one who could not be bought, Mickey Bruce of Oregon. Rosenthal and his associate David Budin believed they had found an opening, but they ran headlong into the integrity of Oregon halfback Mickey Bruce. Bruce flatly refused the bribe, setting off a chain reaction that would help expose a much wider pattern of corruption in college sports.   I break down how this wasn’t an isolated incident but part of a nationwide effort by gamblers to influence outcomes and exploit young athletes. The episode explores the mechanics of organized gambling, how fixes were attempted, and why college sports became such an attractive target for mob-connected bookmakers.   The story reaches a dramatic turning point during U.S. Senate hearings on gambling in college athletics, where Mickey Bruce publicly identified Lefty Rosenthal as one of the men who tried to corrupt him. It’s a rare moment in mob history—one where a gambler is named in open testimony by a player who refused to bend.   From there, I trace Rosenthal’s continued rise in the gambling world, from Miami to Las Vegas, where he would help shape modern sports betting while repeatedly managing to stay one step ahead of serious legal consequences. His story raises enduring questions about accountability, law enforcement limitations, and why some figures seem untouchable.   I close the episode by reflecting on Rosenthal’s legacy—and on Mickey Bruce’s quiet heroism. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 2 March 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective, continues his deep dive into organized crime history with prolific Mafia author Jeffrey Sussman. Sussman, the author of eight books on organized crime, joins Jenkins for a wide-ranging conversation that spans the rise, violence, prosecutions, and survival tactics of La Cosa Nostra in America. Drawing from works like Backbeat Gangsters and his latest release Mafia Hits, Misses Wars and Prosecutions, Sussman offers sharp insight into how the Mafia enforced silence, eliminated enemies, and adapted to government pressure. The discussion opens with omertà, the Mafia’s infamous code of silence, and how mob warfare enforced loyalty through fear. Sussman recounts notorious hits and mob wars that shaped organized crime, then shifts to landmark prosecutions led by Thomas Dewey, whose relentless pursuit of Murder Incorporated dismantled the mob’s most feared execution squad. The conversation moves through defining moments in Mafia history, including the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre, the creation of New York’s Five Families, and the uneasy alliance between Italian and Jewish gangsters brokered at the Franconia Hotel. Figures such as Al Capone, Meyer Lansky, Lucky Luciano, and Lepke Buchalter loom large throughout the episode. Jenkins and Sussman examine the disastrous Appalachian Conference, where Vito Genovese overplayed his hand, drawing national attention to the Mafia and setting the stage for informants like Joe Valachi to break decades of secrecy. The episode also explores the Mafia’s darkest execution methods, including lupara bianca—murders designed to leave no body and no evidence—along with chilling stories involving Mad Sam DeStefano. The assassination attempt on Joe Colombo, and its ties to Joey Gallo, highlight how ego and publicity often proved fatal in the mob world. The episode concludes with Sussman previewing his upcoming book on the Garment District, blending personal family history with organized crime’s grip on American industry. Together, Jenkins and Sussman deliver a sweeping, chronological look at how the Mafia rose, fractured, and endured—leaving a permanent mark on American culture. Get his book Mafia Hits, Misses, Wars, and Prosecutions. ⏱️ Episode Chapters 00:00 – Introduction and Jeffrey Sussman’s Mafia work 03:45 – Omertà and enforcing silence 07:30 – Mafia hits and internal wars 12:10 – Thomas Dewey and Murder Incorporated 18:40 – St. Valentine’s Day Massacre 23:30 – Formation of the Five Families 28:50 – Italian and Jewish mob alliances 34:20 – Capone, Lansky, and Luciano 39:45 – Appalachian Conference fallout 45:10 – Vito Genovese and Joe Valachi 50:30 – Lupara blanca and body disposal 55:20 – Mad Sam DeStefano’s brutality 59:40 – Joe Colombo assassination 1:05:30 – Betrayal and mob survival 1:10:50 – Sussman’s upcoming Garment District book Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 23 February 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective, continues his deep dive into organized crime history with prolific Mafia author Jeffrey Sussman. Sussman, the author of eight books on organized crime, joins Jenkins for a wide-ranging conversation that spans the rise, violence, prosecutions, and survival tactics of La Cosa Nostra in America. Drawing from works like Backbeat Gangsters and his latest release Mafia Hits, Misses Wars and Prosecutions, Sussman offers sharp insight into how the Mafia enforced silence, eliminated enemies, and adapted to government pressure. The discussion opens with omertà, the Mafia’s infamous code of silence, and how mob warfare enforced loyalty through fear. Sussman recounts notorious hits and mob wars that shaped organized crime, then shifts to landmark prosecutions led by Thomas Dewey, whose relentless pursuit of Murder Incorporated dismantled the mob’s most feared execution squad. Jenkins and Sussman examine the disastrous Appalachian Conference, where Vito Genovese overplayed his hand, drawing national attention to the Mafia and setting the stage for informants like Joe Valachi to break decades of secrecy. The episode also explores the Mafia’s darkest execution methods, including lupara bianca—murders designed to leave no body and no evidence—along with chilling stories involving Mad Sam DeStefano. The assassination attempt on Joe Colombo, and its ties to Joey Gallo, highlight how ego and publicity often proved fatal in the mob world. The episode concludes with Sussman previewing his upcoming book on the Garment District, blending personal family history with organized crime’s grip on American industry. Together, Jenkins and Sussman deliver a sweeping, chronological look at how the Mafia rose, fractured, and endured—leaving a permanent mark on American culture. Get his book Mafia Hits, Misses, Wars, and Prosecutions. ⏱️ Episode Chapters 00:00 – Introduction and Jeffrey Sussman’s Mafia work 03:45 – Omertà and enforcing silence 07:30 – Mafia hits and internal wars 12:10 – Thomas Dewey and Murder Incorporated 18:40 – St. Valentine’s Day Massacre 23:30 – Formation of the Five Families 28:50 – Italian and Jewish mob alliances 34:20 – Capone, Lansky, and Luciano 39:45 – Appalachian Conference fallout 45:10 – Vito Genovese and Joe Valachi 50:30 – Lupara blanca and body disposal 55:20 – Mad Sam DeStefano’s brutality 59:40 – Joe Colombo assassination 1:05:30 – Betrayal and mob survival 1:10:50 – Sussman’s upcoming Garment District book   [0:00] Hey, welcome, all you Wiretipers, back here in the studio of Gangland Wire, as you can see. This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective and later sergeant. I have a guest today. He is a prolific author about the mob in the United States. We have several interviews in the archives with Jeffrey Sussman. Welcome, Jeffrey. Thank you, Gary. It’s a pleasure to be with you once again. All right. How many mob books you got? Eight or nine, I think. Eight or nine. I know you’ve covered Tinseltown, the L.A. Families, the crime in L.A., the Chicago. What are some of those? I did Las Vegas, which had a number of the Chicago outfit members in it. I did Big Apple Gangsters. Oh, yeah. My last one was Backbeat Gangsters about the rock music business. Oh, yeah. And then I did also one about boxing and the mob, how the mob controlled boxing. And then my new book is Mafia Hits, Misses Wars and Prosecutions. The update is February 19th. All right. Guys, when I release this, we’re doing this, actually, we’re doing this before Christmas. But when this comes out, while you’ll be able to go to the Amazon link that I’ll have in there, get that book, we’ll have, you’ll see a picture of it as we go along. So you’ll know what the cover looks like. It sounds really interesting, especially about the Mafia Misses. But I’m sure that’s interesting. [1:29] Well, the mob, that’s their way of enforcing their rules. The omerta, somebody talks, they’re going to rub you out, supposedly. And by mob, we’re talking about primarily La Cosa Nostra, Sicilian-based organized crime in the United States. Yeah. The five families particularly have brought this up front. The five families have really perfected this as an art, killing their rivals, killing people that threaten them in any way, killing people that they even had a contract on Tom Dewey, the prosecutor, I believe, at one time. That would be a bomb miss, wouldn’t it? Yeah, actually, what happened with that is Dutch Schultz wanted the commission to take out a contract on Tom Dewey, and they said, no, we can’t do that, because if we do that, it’ll bring down too much heat on us. And so the mob wound up killing Dutch Schultz because he was too much of a threat to them in some ways. But the irony was that if they had killed him, Lucky Luciano never would have been prosecuted. He was prosecuted by Thomas Dewey. Lucky Bookhalter never would have been prosecuted and gone to the electric chair, several others as well. So, by not killing Dewey, they set themselves up to be arrested and get either very long prison terms or go to the electric chair. [2:57] Yeah, Dewey sent, I think it was four members of Murder Incorporated to the electric chair and the head of it, the Lepke book halter. And then he arrested and got a conviction against Lucky Luciano for pimping and pandering, which should have been a fairly short sentence, just a couple of years. But he had him sentenced to 50 years in prison, which is amazing, the pimping. [3:20] So if they had killed Thomas Dewey, they probably would have been better off. But that’s 2020 hindsight. Yeah, hindsight’s always 2020. And a cost-benefit analysis, if you want to apply that, why the cost of killing Tom Dooley might have been much less than the actual benefit was. That’s right. Exactly. And they came to realize that, but it was too late for them. I think they always do a cost-benefit analysis in some manner. How much heat’s going to come down from this? Can we take the heat? Because I know in Kansas City, our mob boss, Nick Savella, was in the penitentiary. He was about to get out, and he sent word out, said I want all unfinished business taken care of by the time I get out. Because when I get out, I do not want all these headlines, because murder generates headlines. And so there was like three murders in rapid succession right after that. [4:13] So they worry about the press and hits, murders generate press. So let’s go back and talk about some particular ones. One of the most famous ones was the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre. Do you cover that? [4:26] Yeah, I start with the assassination of Arnold Rothstein in 1928, and then I go right into the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre. I go into the Castel Marari’s War, the birth of the five families. They had a famous meeting at the Franconia Hotel where the Jewish and Italian gangsters decided to form an alliance rather than fight one another. I went through the trial and conviction of Al Capone, the Bug and Meyer gang. Which evolved into Murder Incorporated, and then how Mayor LaGuardia went after the mob in New York and drove out Frank Costello, who had all the slot machines in New York, drove him down to Louisiana, where Frank Costello paid Huey Long a million dollars to let him operate slot machines all around New Orleans and the rest of Louisiana. And then there was William Dwyer, O’Dwyer, and Burton Turkus, who prosecuted the mob, other members of Murder Incorporated, and then how the federal government was using deportation to get rid of a lot of the mobsters, and how the mafia insinuated itself with entertainers and was controlling entertainers like Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis and others. [5:44] And then the Appalachian Conference, and what an embarrassment that was to Vito Genovese, who wanted to declare himself the boss of bosses. Instead, he became the schmuck of schmucks because the FBI invaded this. And there was a theory that this was really set up, Meyer Lansky, Carl Gambino, and Lucky Luciano, because they didn’t want Vito Genovese to become the boss of bosses because Vito Genovese was responsible for the attempted murder of Frank Costello, and they wanted to get rid of him. After they embarrassed him with Appalachian, And then they set him up for a drug buy. Which is ridiculous because you don’t have the head of a mafia family going out on the street and buying heroin from someone. But that’s what they got him for. And they sent him off to prison for 15 years where he died. But in the realm of unintended consequences, which we just heard some, he goes down to Atlanta and a guy named Joe Valacci is down there. And he thinks that Vito Genovese is given to the fisheye and maybe wants to have him killed. [6:52] If Vito Genovese is not in Atlanta, Joe Valacci does not turn and become the first big important witness against the mob in the United States that couple that with Appalachian. And embarrassment to the FBI and then this Joe Valacci coming out with all these stories explaining what all that meant, the organized crime in the United States, why we may not have the investigation that subsequently came out of all that. It’s crazy, huh? Yeah, exactly. In terms of unintended consequences, because if Vito Genovese hadn’t given the kiss of death, supposedly, to Joe Valacci, you never would have had Joe Valacci’s testimony about how the mob operates. He opened so many doors and told so many secrets. It was a real revelation to the world. [7:42] Now, what about these murders? And I understand they call them a lupara blanca, where the body is never found. Did you talk about any of those or look into that at all? [7:53] We’ve had them in Kansas City, where it’s obviously a mob murder. They even will send a message to the family. We had one where the guy disappeared. Nobody ever found his body. But somebody called the family and said, hey, go up on Gladstone Drive and check this trash can. And then they find the guy’s clothes and his driver’s license, everything in there. Now, did you go into any of those blanks? Yeah, there were a number of mob hits, especially during the murder ink era where they would dispose of the bodies and no one would ever find them. But they would leave clues around for members of the family just so they would know that their father or their son or their brother, whoever was no longer in this world. [8:39] Yeah, that was done quite a bit. And when the Westies, which was an Irish gang that operated on the west side of New York, they believed that if you never found the corpse, you could never convict them of murder. So they used to take their dead bodies out to an island in the East River and chop them into little pieces and then dump them in the river and no one would ever find them. And supposedly they did that with dozens and dozens of bodies. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, and it is. It’s hard to prosecute without the body. It’s been done, but it’s really hard to do. You’ve got to have a really lot of circumstantial evidence to approve a murder without a body. And when Albert Anastasia and Leffy Foucault, who were running Murder Incorporated, they believed two things. One, that if you didn’t find the body, it would be hard to prosecute. And if you couldn’t show a motive, that would be the other thing that would make it difficult. So there would be absolutely no connection between the person who killed the victim and the victim. There was no connection whatsoever. So it was almost as if it was a stranger. In fact, it was a stranger who would commit the murder and then disappear and make sure that the body also disappeared. So you’d have neither motive nor body. Interesting. Pretty stiff penalty for murder. So I understand why you take some extra. Exactly. [10:08] Yeah, that tried to disassociate yourself from any motive for the body. There’s a guy in Chicago named Mad Sam DeStefano. Oh, sure. Lone shark and particularly egregious person when it came to collecting and was responsible for some murders and tortures. And they claim that he would buddy up to the person he knew he wanted to have killed and give him a watch. So then when the police came back around, he’d say, he was my friend. I gave him a present. I gave him that watch. Look and see. Ask his wife. I gave him a watch. Yeah. And I think it was Anthony Spolatro who was charged by the outfit of getting rid of Sam DiStefano because he was a friend. He had been like a protege of Crazy Sam. And so Sam didn’t suspect him as the person who would come and kill him. Yeah, that’s common clue. They say, look out. When a friend comes around and it seems a little bit funny and they want her particularly nice to you and you know you’re in trouble, anyhow, look out. Because that’s the guy that’s going to get you. Exactly. At least set you up. Maybe they have somebody else come in and pull the trigger, somebody that’ll leave town or whatever, but your friend’s going to set you up, make you comfortable. [11:24] Yeah, I think that’s exactly how it happened. We talked a little bit about the Joe Colombo murder. Did you look at that? Yes. [11:31] Tell us about that, because I’m really interested in that. I’d kind of like to do a larger story, just focusing on that, what really happened there, because that’s a mystery. Did this Jerome Johnson, this black guy, do it? Why would he do it? Nobody ever came out and connected him directly to Joey Gallo, and that’s the claim. So talk about that one. What happened is Joe Colombo formed the Italian Anti-Defamation League because he thought Italians were being blamed for too many things. And Colombo was responsible for having the producers of the movie The Godfather never use the word mafia in the movie, never use La Cosa Nostra in the movie. And he was making a big splash for himself. And this was driving a lot of people in the mafia a little crazy. They’re getting nervous because he was getting so much attention for himself, and it’s not the kind of attention they wanted. And Gambino was particularly upset about this. And Joey Gallo had been in prison, and he had been involved in the war against Profaci earlier on. And when he got out of prison, he felt that the new head of the Profaci family, who was Joe Colombo, should honor him with the amount of time that he spent in prison. And Joe Colombo offered him $1,000. [12:57] And Gallo was incensed by that. He expected $100,000. [13:02] And so he started another war with Colombo. [13:09] This would be good for Carlo Gambino because then he could use Joey Gallo to get rid of someone and his hands wouldn’t appear to be anywhere near this. And when Joey Gallo was in prison, he befriended a lot of black gangsters who were drug dealers and showed them how to succeed in the drug dealing business. And his attitude was that the mafia was very prejudiced against black people, but he thought that was stupid. He thought that we should use black criminals the same way we use any other criminals. And so he befriended a lot of blacks when he was in prison. And no one really knows how exactly he came in contact with Jerome Johnson. But anyway, Jerome Johnson was given the mission of assassinating Joe Colombo at a demonstration where Joe Colombo would be speaking about the Italian American Anti-Defamation League, which had attracted a lot of entertainers. Frank Sinatra was on the board of it. They raised a lot of money. I spoke to some Italian friends of mine at the time, and they said that people from the Italian Anti-Defamation League went around to small Italian-run stores, pizza parlors, shoe repair stores, whatever, and had them closed down for that day so that these people should attend the rally. And the rally was being held, I believe, in Columbus Circle. [14:36] And Jerome Johnson was there, and he had a press pass. So he was permitted to get very close to Joe Colombo because it appeared that he was a reporter or a photographer for a newspaper. And as soon as he got close enough, he pumped a couple of bullets into Joe Colombo’s head. Immediately, three or four gangsters descended on Jerome Johnson and killed him immediately. [15:02] And those three or four people who killed him, they disappeared into the crowd. No one ever found them again. I know. I wish we’d had cell phone footage from that. No one wouldn’t have gotten away if everybody had their cell phones out that day when they would have seen everything that happened. [15:21] Exactly. Columbo existed in a vegetative state. I think it was for about seven years before he finally died. I didn’t realize it was that long. Wow. Yeah, but he was semi-conscious. He couldn’t communicate. He was paralyzed. But the The Colombo family believed that it was Joey Gallo who was responsible for this. Joey Gallo and his new wife had been having a dinner with friends at the Copacabana nightclub in New York. They were joined at their table by Don Rickles, who had been performing that night. Comedian David Steinberg, who had been the best man at Joey Gallo’s wedding to a second wife, was there. And he suggested to them that they left the Copacabana about three o’clock in the morning. And he suggested to them that they all go down to Little Italy, go to Chinatown, and we’ll have a late dinner there. So Rick Olson and Steinberg said, it’s too late for us. You go and enjoy yourself and we’ll see you another time. Joey Gallo, his bodyguard, a Greek guy, I can’t remember his name exactly. Peter Dacopoulos. That’s it. And his wife, and Decapolis’ girlfriend and Joey Gallo’s stepdaughter. They all drove downtown. They couldn’t find anything open in Chinatown, so they drove over to Little Italy, and they went into Umberto’s Clam House. [16:49] And it was very strange, because supposedly a gangster would never do this. Joe Colombo was sitting with his back to the door. [16:58] Usually, your back is to the wall, and you’re facing the door. Oh, Joey Gallo was sitting with his back to the door. Yeah, I meant Joey Gallo. Yeah. Go ahead. And there was kind of a lonely guy sitting at the bar having a drink, and no one paid any attention to him. He was a mob wannabe, and he recognized Joey Gallo, and he went to a mob social club that was a few blocks away that was a hangout for Colombo gangsters. And when he came in and told them that joey gallo was there and the one of the guys there called a capo from the colombo family and told him who they saw and so forth and apparently he instructed them to go and get rid of him and so they took the mob wannabe guy and they got in two cars and they drove down to or around the block whatever it was to umberto’s clam house they went in and they immediately started shooting. And Colombo flipped over the table. I’m sorry, Joey Gallo flipped over the table and had his wife and girlfriend in the step door to get behind the table. And he and Peter were firing back at these guys. [18:07] Peter got shot in the ass and complained about it for many months afterwards, and Joey Gallo ran out onto the street chasing them, and he got shot in the neck, and I think it hit his carotid artery, and he bled to death on the sidewalk. And the guys from the Columbo and the Columbo wannabe guy, they quickly drove up to an apartment on the Upper East Side where the Columbo capo was. And he told them to go to a safe house in Nyack, New York, where they went. And meanwhile, the mob wannabe guy who had fingered Columbo, he’s getting very nervous. He feels that his life isn’t worth too much. He’s in over his head. [18:51] Right. So he sneaks out in the middle of the night and takes a plane to California to live with his sister. And he tries to get into the witness protection program, but they don’t believe him. They don’t believe he has enough evidence to make it worthwhile. No one knows exactly what happened to him afterwards. And the guys who supposedly killed Gallo, nothing really happened to them either. There was a huge funeral for Joey Gallo in Brooklyn. And it was like one of those old mob funerals that you see in a movie with a hundred flower cars and people lining the streets. And I think it was Joey Gallo’s mother who threw herself into the grave on top of the coffin. Oh, really? And Joey Gallo’s. [19:38] He had two brothers, one of whom had died of cancer, and the other one wound up going into another mob family. That was part of the peace deal. I can’t remember if it was the Gambino family or the Genovese family. He went into one of those two families. I think it was Gambino family, that Albert Kidd Twist gallo, I think was his name. And I think it was the Gambino family. He just kept a low profile until he died of natural causes. I think he’s dead now. He never heard from him again, basically. Exactly. [20:06] Interesting. That’s a heck of a story. A lot more stories like that in there, too. I bet. What was your favorite story out of that, or the one that shocked you or you learned something? Maybe something that you learned that you didn’t know or cut through some myth. [20:20] Probably, I’m just looking at my notes here to see what really fascinated me the most. I think the evolution of the Bug and Meyer gang. This guy, Ralph Salerno, who was a fascinating guy who headed the New York Prime Strike Force, Mafia investigators He’s been dead for about I think 10 or 15 years But I spent about Two or three hours Interviewing him A long time ago Didn’t he write a book Didn’t he write a book Called The Crime Confederation Or something like that Yes he did Yeah And it’s excellent So he knew Meyer Lansky He had met Bugsy Siegel Back once In the early 1940s He knew Frank Costello He knew all of these people And it was fascinating To, to hear his stories. And he said that during the time of the Bug and Meyer gang, they were the most vicious gang in New York. And they had a complete menu for crimes that they would commit on your behalf. Burglaries, murders, throwing people out of windows, breaking arms and legs, killing by stabbing, killing by shooting, killing by knifing. And each one had a price. And he said they actually had it printed. It was like a menu and you could check off what you wanted. [21:40] Crazy. And then he said, as they got more and more involved in prohibition, they got out of this and it evolved into Murder Incorporated, which had about 400 members, primarily Jewish and Italian gangsters. And it was run by Albert Anastasia and Lepke Bookhalter. [22:05] And when Thomas Dewey came into power, he wanted very much to convict these guys, but, Murder Incorporated had this fascinating idea that every member of Murder Incorporated would receive a monthly retainer and then it paid a special price for committing murders. And the more ambitious the member was, the more murders he would commit. So there were a couple who were really very ambitious and did a lot of murders. And each one had a specialty. So there was this one guy named Abe Hidtwist Relis, who only killed people with an ice pick in the back of the neck. And then he would leave the body in a car, talking about getting rid of bodies, and he would burn the body and leave it in the car and let other people know who were the relatives that he had been done away with. And then there was a guy named Pittsburgh Phil, who was the most ambitious of them, who supposedly committed about 100 to 150 murders because he just loved getting money for each one that he committed. [23:15] Then there was a guy named Louis Capone, who’s no relation to Al. He worked with a partner named Mendy Weiss, and the two of them went out and killed people together. They thought it was a fun event for them. It was like a boy’s night out. Who we’re going to kill today. Weren’t they two of them that got the electric chair? Yes, they did. And there’s a picture of them on the train up to Singh on their way to the electric chair. And they’re laughing. This is nothing. This is just another fun time for us. And yeah, I think there were four of them who finally went to the electric chair. And then one member of this was a guy named Charlie the Bud Workman, who finally got indicted for the murder of Dutch Schultz. He was the one who carried out the murder of Dutch Schultz for the mob. And he got, I think he was 30 years in prison. But according to his son… [24:13] Who is a PGA golfer, who is well-known in PGA circles as a very good golf competitor, said that the mob took care of his family for the entire time that Workman was in prison because he never spoke about anybody else. He really observed the rules of a murder, and they appreciated him for that. So that whole episode was like a corporation murder, which is why they called it Murder, Inc., that would go out and kill people on orders only from the mafia. They only worked for the mafia. You couldn’t hire them if you weren’t a member of the mafia. And it had to go through a mafia boss for the instructions to come down to them. A soldier couldn’t tell them what to do. Even a capo couldn’t tell them. It had to go up to a boss, the boss had to approve it, and then assign someone to do it. And they all worked out of a candy store in Brooklyn called Midnight Roses because it was open 24 hours a day. And the phone would ring there from giving whoever it was instructions about who was to be killed, where they were to be killed, how they were to do it, and so forth and so on. [25:27] So what was also interesting is even though Bugsy Siegel had left the Bug and Meyer gang, he still loved participating in murder. He liked killing people. And his partner in these murders was a guy named Frankie Carbo, who became a big deal in boxing. He controlled most of the boxing in America up until at the time of Sonny Liston. And his partner in this was a man named Blinky Palermo. [25:59] And according to Ralph Natale, who for a while had been the boss of the Philadelphia crime family, it was Frankie Carbo who was sent by the mob to kill Bugsy Siegel. Because if he was caught or Bugsy Siegel saw him around, he wouldn’t suspect that he was his killer because they were friends and they had operated as partners together. So this goes back to what we were talking about earlier. It’s your friend who comes closest to you and then arranges you to be assassinated. So I found that whole story just fascinating. Interesting. I’ll tell you what. And there’s those and a whole lot more stories in this, isn’t there, Jeff? Yes, there are. I think that the book covers pretty much the mob history, beginning with the founding of the five families, going all the way up through Sammy the Bulgurvano’s testimony against John Gotti and the commission trial, where they decapitated the heads of the five families. Not literally, folks. Not literally. Not literally. We didn’t literally decapitate. Rudy Giuliano, he tried to. He tried to. He tried to. Metaphorically, he decapitated the heads of the five families. Exactly. [27:15] You know, what was interesting, though, is in the 1930s, you had Thomas Dewey. In the 1960s, you had Robert Kennedy, who went after the mob. And then later on, you had Rudy Giuliani going after the mob. And the mob always managed to reorganize itself and figure out a new way of existing. They were very opportunistic and they always managed to find a way to keep going, even if it was very low key, which is what it is now, where they operate in the shadows and they don’t have any John Gottis or Al Capone’s out there getting a lot of attention for themselves. They’re still out there doing things. Yeah. Yeah. They finally learned something about that getting publicity. And most recently, they put together a whole scheme, and this goes way back, of cheating people. Big whales, I call them whales, of rich men that like to gamble and brush up against kind of the dark side and cheat them at cards. They’ve been doing that for years. They just do it under goes to clear black to the Friars Club scam in Los Angeles where Ronnie Roselli and some others had a spotter, would see who had what cards in what’s hands, then would tell another player. And so now there’s just more electronic, but the same game just upgraded to electronics. [28:30] That’s right. What someone I spoke to interviewed said, he said they’re very involved in electronic gambling poker machines and that kind of thing. And a lot of offshore gambling and offshore money laundering. And to some extent, even drug dealing now. And they’re still very involved in New York in the construction business. Oh, really? Yeah. Union business. They’re still in it, huh? And I know in Kansas City, there’s a couple of examples where they put money into a buy here, pay here car dealership into a title loan place because there’s a huge rate of interest on those things. And there’s a lot of scams that go down out of those places, especially the old crap cars and put them together and sell them to poor people for they’ve got $500 in the car and they sell it to them for $2,000. They charge them a 25% interest and then go repo it when the car breaks down, turn around and patch it up and sell it again. So there’s always schemes going on out there to mob will put their money into. Oh, it’s incredible. I knew of one scheme where they would They would sell trucks to people and give them a special route. And so on that route, they could make enough money to pay off the loan on the truck. But then they would take away the route from them. They couldn’t pay off the truck. So they would repossess the truck and sell it to someone else and do it all over again. [29:50] Oh, I know. They got to tell you that. And Joey Messino and the Bananos, they organized the tow main wagons, the lunch truck, the snack wagons. Right, exactly. Organize them. And then they start extorting money, formed an association. And then to get to good spots, then you had to kick money to them. And just to be part of the organization, that was kicking money to them. There’s always something. They always manage to find a place where they can make money. And it’s like whack-a-mole. You can stop them here, you can stop them there, and then they pop up in three other places. [30:24] Really all right jeffrey susman i’m so happy to talk to you again i haven’t talked to you for a while and i hope everything else is everything’s going okay for you in new york city yep i’m working on a new book uh what are you working on now oh my god you are so prolific i look on your amazon page just when i was getting ready to do this trying to think of some of those other titles Oh, my God. I’m working on a book about the Garment Center. Ah, interesting. Only because my family was involved in that business, and they had to deal with the mob in various ways, with trucking companies, unions, and so forth. And since I knew that, and I had a lot of information, a lot of contacts, I thought I would tackle that next. I remember when I had my marketing PR business back in the 1970s. [31:16] I had a client who was in the fitness business, and I had a cousin of my mother’s who was a very famous dress designer at the time, and he had a big showroom on 7th Avenue, which is in the garment center. I went to see him because I wanted to see if I could get a deal for my client to manufacture exercise clothes and brand it with her name. I made a date to have lunch with this cousin of mine, and he said, come up to my showroom. we’ll meet for lunch, And so I got to the showroom, and I called out his name when I walked in. It was empty. And this guy comes running out of the back, and he just has a shirt on, and he has a shoulder holster, .38 caliber gun in it. And he says to me, who the F are you? I said, I’m so-and-so’s cousin. I’m here to have lunch with him. He disappeared into the back. And a couple of minutes later my mother’s cousin comes out and i said who was that what was that about he says i don’t want to talk about it now i’ll tell you all for lunch so we go down to a restaurant around the corner and i asked him again and he says he said he couldn’t have his dresses delivered to any department store unless he made a deal with yeah i forgot if it was the gambinos or the lucasies that he had to take this guy on as a partner otherwise the trucks wouldn’t deliver his garments. And there was nothing he could do about it. It was either that or go out of business. [32:45] I’ll tell you what, they’re voracious. They’re greedy and voracious and don’t care. Just give me those, show me the money. That’s all it is. It’s all about money and any way to get it. And then there’s always a threat of murder behind it. If you don’t cooperate, think of the worst thing that can happen to you. And that’s what’ll happen. Yeah. I’ve had guys over the years tell I’m like, oh, you ought to throw in with one of those ex-mobsters that’s doing podcasts and try to do something with them. I say, I ain’t doing business with them. They play by their rules. I play by society’s rules. And I don’t have time to mess with that. Yeah. And that was a smart thing to do. Because also, when I had this fitness client, I met someone who was… I didn’t know what was connected to the mob, but a mutual friend, this guy said that he wanted to set up fitness centers all around the country for my clients. So I mentioned this to a mutual friend and he said, whatever you don’t go into business with this guy, I said, regret it for the rest of your life. So I advised my client not to do it. [33:49] Yeah. Cause initially before we knew that it sounded like a great opportunity. And then when you investigate, it’s not such a great opportunity. Yeah, really. Speaking of that, we tell stories for hours. I just heard a story. We had a relocated mobster, a guy that testified against Gigante, came here to Kansas City. And he was, of course, under witness protection and he’s got an assumed name. And he befriends a guy that has a fitness center. He has a franchise of Gold’s Gym or something. And he has a fitness center. And he talks this guy into taking him on, investing a little money in it, taking him on as his partner. Within the next couple of years, this mobster, he’s got two of his kids working there and neither one of them are really doing anything, but they’re drawing a salary and the money’s trickling out. And the guy, the local guy, he just walks away from it because this guy’s planned by the mob’s rules. So he just ended up walking away from it, did something else. So it’s do not go into business with these guys. No, never. Never. [34:48] Jeffrey Suspett, it’s a pleasure to have you back on the show. Thank you so much. It’s a pleasure to be with you again, Gary. It’s always a pleasure. Thank you very much.

Transcribed - Published: 23 February 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective, steps outside traditional Mafia territory and into a shadowy world just as dangerous—and just as fascinating: the international theft of ultra-rare automobiles.  Gary is joined by author Stayton Bonner, former senior editor at Rolling Stone, and legendary car-recovery specialist Joe Ford, the real-life figure behind Bonner’s book The Million Dollar Car Detective. At the center of the story is a breathtaking pre-World War II automobile—the Talbot-Lago Teardrop Coupé—once described as the most beautiful car in the world. Stolen from a Milwaukee industrialist’s garage in 2001, the car vanished into the international underground of elite collectors, forged paperwork, and high-stakes deception. Joe Ford explains how he became the go-to investigator when rare cars worth millions disappear—and why stolen vehicles are far harder to recover than stolen art. What follows is a years-long global hunt involving disgruntled mechanics, fabricated titles, shell corporations, Swiss intermediaries, and a billionaire buyer now locked in civil litigation. Bonner adds rich historical context, tracing the car’s glamorous past—from European aristocracy to Hollywood royalty—and exposing how loneliness, obsession, and greed often surround these legendary machines. The conversation expands into other notorious cases, including the disappearance of the original James Bond Aston Martin from Goldfinger, and how wealthy collectors sometimes knowingly harbor stolen artifacts. This episode is a true-crime story without guns or gangs—but filled with deception, betrayal, and the relentless pursuit of justice across borders. If you love investigative work, high-end crime, and stories that feel like James Bond meets Gone in 60 Seconds, this one’s for you. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 16 February 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective, steps outside traditional Mafia territory and into a shadowy world just as dangerous—and just as fascinating: the international theft of ultra-rare automobiles.  Gary is joined by author Stayton Bonner, former senior editor at Rolling Stone, and legendary car-recovery specialist Joe Ford, the real-life figure behind Bonner’s book The Million Dollar Car Detective. At the center of the story is a breathtaking pre-World War II automobile—the Talbot-Lago Teardrop Coupé—once described as the most beautiful car in the world. Stolen from a Milwaukee industrialist’s garage in 2001, the car vanished into the international underground of elite collectors, forged paperwork, and high-stakes deception. Joe Ford explains how he became the go-to investigator when rare cars worth millions disappear—and why stolen vehicles are far harder to recover than stolen art. What follows is a years-long global hunt involving disgruntled mechanics, fabricated titles, shell corporations, Swiss intermediaries, and a billionaire buyer now locked in civil litigation. Bonner adds rich historical context, tracing the car’s glamorous past—from European aristocracy to Hollywood royalty—and exposing how loneliness, obsession, and greed often surround these legendary machines. The conversation expands into other notorious cases, including the disappearance of the original James Bond Aston Martin from Goldfinger, and how wealthy collectors sometimes knowingly harbor stolen artifacts. This episode is a true-crime story without guns or gangs—but filled with deception, betrayal, and the relentless pursuit of justice across borders. If you love investigative work, high-end crime, and stories that feel like James Bond meets Gone in 60 Seconds, this one’s for you. 🔑 Key Topics Covered The theft of a $7 million Talbot-Lago Teardrop Coupé How stolen cars are laundered through forged provenance Why rare automobiles are harder to recover than fine art Civil vs. criminal liability in stolen property cases The global black market for elite collector vehicles The missing Goldfinger Aston Martin mystery How billionaires and shell companies complicate recovery 📘 Featured Book The Million Dollar Car Detective by Stayton Bonner   🎧 About the Guests Stayton Bonner – Former Rolling Stone senior editor and investigative journalist Joe Ford – International car-theft investigator specializing in ultra-rare vehicles Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. Tanscript Gary jenkins: [00:00:00] well, hey, all your wire tapper’s. Good to be back here in studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence unit detective. And I have a story today. It’s not particularly about the mafia, but it’s about a subject I’m really interested in. That’s fast cars and rear cars. And, and I’m kind of a gearhead, as you all know, and love my motorcycles. But, uh, this is about some really cool cars and, and I have here. A couple of guys that, uh, particularly one Joe Ford who is a, a guy, a detective that goes out and finds rare stolen cars, which I think is just fascinating. So I have Staton Bonner, who’s a former senior editor Rolling Stone. He’s written a book called The Million Dollar Detective, and that million dollar detective is Joe Ford. So welcome guys. Gary, thanks for having us. All right. So, uh, I, I guess let’s start off with, with Staton. Tell me a little bit about yourself. You, you are a writer for Rolling Stone and, and written another book. I, I see. And, uh, so just tell us a little bit about yourself. Stayton: Uh, yes, [00:01:00] sir. Former senior editor Rolling Stone Magazine wrote a book a few years ago, uh, Altru Stories. About a bare and knuckle boxer working to give his daughter a, a better life in New York City through these underground fights. This story though, uh, is the most a amazing story I’ve come across, uh, in my years as a journalist. I don’t know if you’re a fan of James Bond gone in 60 seconds. Catch me if you can. Uh, but this story is right in line with that. You know, a lot of my work as a reporter editor is just looking for stories. So I was scouring regional newspapers. When I came across this small story in a Milwaukee publication and it just immediately grabbed me, it jumped off. Uh, you know, in 2001, a $7 million stolen car was stolen in the middle of the night in Milwaukee from an industrialist private garage. Three men in overalls cut security lines broke in. Absconded in the middle of the night with this very rare vehicle case closed with cold years later, a [00:02:00] detective Joe Ford gets a call from the French Alps, and a uh, disgruntled mechanic said he knew the whereabouts of this stolen car that authorities have been looking for around the world for years. That really set off the chase that kicks off this book. It’s about, obviously it’s about a rare car, but it’s interesting because it gets into the veneer just underneath this high society world of people like Ralph Lauren and various heads of of industry. Buying and selling rare cars for many tens of millions of dollars. There is a criminal enterprise underneath that, as you have with any rare art world dealing in fakes, forgeries stolen goods and all of that. And that’s when Joe Ford, the car detective comes in. You know, I talked with authorities police FBI, you know, there’s not a dedicated unit to recovering stolen cars as they have with stolen artwork. So when a, when something a 10 million do dollar car gets taken. Uh, he, they said, they told me there’s one guy they [00:03:00] call and, uh, that’s Joe Ford. You don’t have to be a car person to love this book. The Million Dollar Car Detective just is really a good cat and mouse chase story. Um, and I’m, I’m thrilled to be here to talk about it. Gary jenkins: Great. We all love cat and mouse chase story as I do anyhow. So Joe Ford, uh, tell us about yourself. How did you end up in this position to be the million dollar car theft detective? Joe Ford: Accidentally. I started out as an architect in New Orleans, then went to law school, didn’t practice law, but I had a classic car dealership in Louisiana and in Florida. And being involved in the car world, you learn about things. And then it was, uh, years later I ended up recovering a stolen acid martin for a guy and it was successful. And then, uh, got into a contract to recover a stolen $18 million Ferrari race car. And was successful and then heard about this from a French mechanic who is hadn’t been paid by somebody in Switzerland. So he spills the [00:04:00] beans and, and gives me a clue. And I’ve been on this hunt for a car taken in 2001 and I’ve been litigating for over eight years now against an LLC owned by a billionaire set up just to buy this car outta Switzerland. And. My opinion is it was set up because he knew it was stolen, he knew it had paperwork issues and knew he would have to litigate to clear title. And I’m now litigating to clear that title, but I intend to retrieve the car. And for me and my partner, I partnered up with the heirs of the original Milwaukee theft of victims. And, uh, we’re in court now against this Gary jenkins: LLC. So, if I remember my, uh, property law from law school is you can’t, if you don’t have good title to something, you can’t pass it on to somebody else. Any, any. Passing on is an illegal transaction, and whoever pays money for something with a bad title just by eats it, eats it, is my, if I remember right, [00:05:00] that correct. Joe Ford: That that’s correct. And it, it goes down the chain. You can buy a stolen car from one guy, he can sell it to another, he can sell it to another. Nobody acquires title because the thief didn’t have it, and each guy sues the prior guy to try to get his money back and the property gets returned to the victims. Gary jenkins: That’s, Joe Ford: that is the, the law of the world. Gary jenkins: Interesting. I remember my law school, right? It’s been a few years. Yeah. But I remember that. Right. Uh, so, you know, in this, this world, you know, we know about the jewel thefts. You know, the Marlboro Diamond never appeared back. The Chicago outfit guy stole this Marlboro diamond in, in London and mailed it to somebody. It never did reappear. Many times these paintings don’t ever reappear for years and years. And we always, there’s always a speculation. There’s these, these, reclusive, super wealthy collectors or, uh, Arabian Saudi Arabian princes or something that will keep these things. Are any of those rumors true? Is that what happens with these cars? I mean, how do you hide a car? Especially one is what [00:06:00] this car that you’re looking for is a Talbot Lego. Teardrop coop. Really distinctive, looking real. And I’ll have a picture of this up there, guys. Really distinctive looking car. So how, oh yeah, I see it up on your, uh, uh, up over your head there. So h how does this work? I guess a little bit about how this works. Joe Ford: Lemme Gary jenkins: just Joe Ford: go ahead, Stayton: lemme just give a little context. So just for the big picture, Gary, you know, uh. Again for your listeners, I’m not sure, you know, rare cars it’s relatively smaller niche market in high-end collectibles, but it’s also, uh, the fastest rising sector. So you have, you know, folks who make a lot of money you know, they wanna diversify their assets. It could be any number of things including, Picassos, Basquiats, uh, whatever. But what’s a lot more fun, when I interviewed all these people, is buying a super rare car. ’cause unlike something, a piece of art, you hang on the wall, you get to drive this thing. Gary jenkins: Yeah. Stayton: So the rare, you know, so the rare car market is really one of the [00:07:00] fastest growing markets. It, it is really largely due to Ralph Lauren. He was a guy from the Bronx, just a working class kid. He grew up loving cars. So once he made money with Polo, uh, he started buying and collecting these old, Ferrari racers a lot of times that were just beat up, banged up. These things were raced in all sorts of. Different competitions across Europe, just charred husks. Uh, but he would find them with his team and kind of restore them with the original items that they would find and make it as as true to period correct as possible. And then in the past decade or so as a market, the rare car market. Has increased in value by more than 300%. It’s bypassed assets like, you know, collectible wines, jewelry, artwork, everything else. So there’s a whole hierarchy of cars within that at the basic level, a rare car. Two things. It’s obviously by definition there’s not many of them. A lot of times these are pre-World War [00:08:00] II vehicles that were custom made in Europe by the, the highest level of artisan, uh, in the world. And then number two, a lot of times they, they signify a very special. Innovation in technology or design or just something that makes it special? Obviously, Ferrari, if it raced, if it won something in a competition, if it was a car owned by Steve McQueen, right from Bullet. Yeah, something like that. If it’s a very rare special car, that’s where it gets to this next level. I mean, I’m sure a lot of your readers, our listeners have a. You know, a, a rare muscle car that their dad or uncle left around, they kind of tinker on in the garage or whatever. And that, that is a layer. But this is a whole nother one where these, these become worth tens of millions of dollars. And just like any rare asset if you have a lot of value and it’s hard to find paperwork. For instance to verify these things, you have to do a lot of, of digging, but it also opens up an opportunity for a lot of fraud and theft. And that’s [00:09:00] really what has happened in the rare car market. And that’s, that’s where they call someone like Joe. Joe, I don’t know if you want to add anything else to that. Joe Ford: Yeah. It doesn’t happen often because every thief soon learns you can’t sell the stolen item. Yeah. So then the only pathway to try to legitimize a sale is to try to fabricate paperwork. Or create a paper trail to somehow explain how you came to possess this stolen car. And in this instance, the paperwork was all fabricated, including forged notary stamps, forged signatures, a forged paperwork trail as if it, the car went from this guy to that guy. And it’s just, but what? You just debunk all that and uncover the lies that are trying to paper over a Gary jenkins: theft. So, uh, your investigation in this started with a disgruntled mechanic over in Europe or in France, getting a hold of you. ’cause your, your name is well known out in that subculture, I would assume, and how to get [00:10:00] a hold of you. Then you start find out where it is, and then you have to start looking at that paperwork and discrediting all that paperwork in order to establish a, a claim to it. Would that be, tell us about that trail. Joe Ford: Yeah, well the first thing I do is, uh, it’s a clue that I get out of this French mechanic ’cause I don’t know if he’s telling me the truth or not. So what I did is I located the original theft victims and said, Hey, by the way, did you ever sell the rights to this car at any time? And the, the theft victim’s there says, hell no. I inherited that thing. We didn’t know where it was, so we just waited. Couldn’t complete probate, so we just waited. So I said I got a proposal. I’ll enter into a contract with you where I’ll pony up the money and I’ll go find and recover this car. I have a clue. It’s somewhere in Europe. I don’t know who owns it or who’s possessing it. It’s gonna take years. We may never find it. But if you want, and uh, so I did sign a contract with the heirs and then so began the cat and mouse. Or I should say cat and [00:11:00] rat. You know, mice are, mice are usually innocent. This is a cat and rat situation. Cat rat. Gary jenkins: That’s a good one. So what was your first step then? Did you fly over to France and meet this mechanic and look him in the eye? Joe Ford: No, I, I teased out more data from the mechanic. I said, well, what, can you tell me what, what’s, what, do you know? Why do you suspect this guy took it? Why do you suspect it’s stolen? I get some conflicting clues like he, he wouldn’t commit to where it was. He wouldn’t commit to, uh, photographs of the stolen car, but he did send me a photograph of this other car and it turns out the thief had gone back to the estate. Once the victim died, he went to the estate to buy some other parts, and in the purchase of these other parts unrelated to the stolen car, he generates, he gets signatures and then begins generating a paper trail as if he’s buying the stolen teardrop. You know, paperwork to look like he’s buying this car. But in fact, he was buying [00:12:00] an ordinary body of a black sedan. It kind of looks like a frumpy old Ford model T. Yeah. And um, so with that contact with the estate, this thief then fabricates paperwork. Then waits years and years and ultimately restores the car really nicely to museum caliber restoration. You could bring it to Pebble Beach Concord in a heartbeat. Wow. And it would win. And so he restores it and then he sells it to this. Innocent purchaser. I don’t think he’s so innocent. And that’s who I’m in court with now. He sells it in Switzerland and this guy imports it and he waits a year before even trying to get a title, which is a very suspicious act. Yeah. And when he does apply for a title in Illinois, it pops up as stolen in the state of Illinois. Contacts the state police who contact the Wisconsin Police, who then contact us and say, Hey guys, we found your car. It just popped up. And so, uh, you know, I, I call those people and [00:13:00] say, listen, why don’t you just hand it over and go back against this phony seller? And it’s been a fight ever since. ’cause they won’t do the right thing. They just won’t, they’ll, they’re spending millions on attorneys rather than give up the car and do the right thing. Stayton: So, Gary, I should, I should add, give you a little bit of context here. First off, I obviously interviewed Joe Ford for the book. I also interviewed the alleged thief, Chris Gardner. Oh really? Uh, who I should say denied all charges and the charges, criminal charges were dropped against him. So let’s clarify that up top. Let me give you a little bit of context here. ’cause what was particularly interesting here, uh, was Joe Ford and the alleged thiefs, uh, background together. They both came up in New Orleans. Oh really? Uh, working together in the, uh, rare car import export. Business starting off with gray market imports. These were European cars, uh, that you could buy and import from overseas for cheaper [00:14:00] than you could buy here. Uh, and you were supposed to do some type of modification to make them street legal here. And that was kind of a booming market before, uh, basically the industry and, and government closed it down. But Joe and, and the alleged thief, Chris. We’re in business together and we’re friends and did work together for years, uh, until they had a massive falling out. Over, uh, various disagreements regarding car disputes and land disputes. But, basically that was one aspect of this that was compelling to me, uh, was, was Joe and the alleged thief had this his history together. When it comes to the car, the $7 million TBO logo. It was a car that the Rob report once called the most beau beautiful car in the world. One of only two models built with this race car engine. And I think what’s really interesting to me, it is a, as a journalist in reporting this story, uh, was exploring just the [00:15:00] histories of all of these rare cars. They would. Trade hands over the years. Uh, this one was built in, uh, 1938 by FII fci, these Italian immigrants to France. And it was, you know, uh, made it for basically, we’re not entirely sure but Parisian royalty was probably the best guess. And they would show these things off. You would buy matching outfits, almost like Downton Abbey era to go with the car and you would, go to these grand events. Uh, and it was really almost like a luxury accessory, if you will for royalty overseas. This car was imported into the United States in 1939 by Luigi Chinetti. A former Italian race car driver who won Lamont three times that year. He sold the teardrop to Tommy Lee, uh, who was the son of, uh, basically a, a wealthy businessman in, uh, Hollywood. In fact, literally the Hollywood sign was [00:16:00] on his Lee Mountain or his, his former mountain. He owned all the ca Cadillac dealerships throughout California. Got a piece of it. So his son was like this Playboy, who would. State Starlets raced these cars in the, uh, Mojave Desert, um, and lived this really extravagant lifestyle. He actually, in 1950, had a road accident, left him in chronic pain, and ended up jumping from, uh, a 12 story building, killing himself and leaving behind this world class collection of cars, including the teardrop. It finally found its way, uh, purchased by Roy Leki, a self-made millionaire. And, uh, and the founder of Monarch Plastic Products, uh, this company he ran in his warehouse in, um, in Milwaukee. And, you know, it was an interesting story of, of Leki. Uh, basically his, his wife died of cancer. His son, a pilot, died in an airplane crash. He, according to all reports, became pre pretty reclusive and withdrawn. And he really [00:17:00] focused on this car. So this garage where he kept it. Became piled up with junk pieces, all sorts of, of different things. And he, talking with, um, his nephew and, and various people who knew him, including Jay Leno. I interviewed Jay Leno, uh, who went out to look at the car. He became lonely and he started putting out advertisements that he had this rare vehicle in car trade magazines and saying. Purporting, he wanted to sell it. I, you know, talking to his family, they, they think he just wanted, was lonely and kind of wanted talk to people to meet people. Yeah. Wanted talk to people. ’cause people would come out there. Jay Leno. Oh yeah. Gary jenkins: Uh, flew Stayton: out there. He flew out and looked at it’s kind. Gary jenkins: It’s kind of the Ulti Ultimate Barn. Find the Ultimate Barn find. Yeah. Stayton: That’s the ultimate bar find. That’s right. And Jay Leno said, you know, something about it just didn’t feel right. I didn’t do it. But in the course of that, that is, is when you know, the alleged thief came and saw it and his representative and, you know, aft afterwards. That’s what led to the car being stolen. But it’s this [00:18:00] really interesting backstory, not only of Joe and the alleged thief, Chris Gardner. But also of this car and each, you know, the book details, this, his, this car’s history and other ones as well. That it’s, it was just one, one crazy story after. Gary jenkins: Really, it’s kind of the ultimate cautionary tale for you guys that have some kind of a cool car out there. I, I, my ne my, uh, cousin, he had a muscle car stuck out in the barn, out on the farm, but his brother lived on the farm and his brother had all kinds of, drinkers and different people coming out to the farm. You know, drinking and talking to him, and all of a sudden the trailer and the muscle car is gone and has never been found since. So, not expensive enough for Joe Ford to go after, but still. Mm-hmm. So you gotta be careful who sees what’s what you got in, in that, uh, when you got something like that, it’s crazy. Yeah. Joe, uh, go ahead Joe. You had you started to say something. I was Joe Ford: just gonna say, just to add on that. The first thing you do when you get a car is [00:19:00] apply for a title immediately. Yeah. And before you actually purchase a car, it, you can ask the police to do a VIN check. Just run this vin. Has it been reported stolen? ’cause the police maintain a database to protect and prevent against auto theft of stolen property, especially cars. And that’s something that was, this car was listed as stolen in the database. Yet these, uh, this LLC owned by this billionaire still decided to buy it. It’s just an incredible story and to me it’s a, it’s sort of a, if I had summarized my opinion, it’s a sophisticated laundering of a stolen car by someone with means. Yeah. Because had I not partnered up with the victim, he didn’t have resources or knowledge to battle. Gary jenkins: Yeah. Joe Ford: So, you know, this, this guy would’ve steamrolled him. Gary jenkins: Yeah, so, oh yeah. And you got the resources. I tell you what, uh, as a lawyer, I had a guy come to me and he had a, a dispute with somebody, his landlord. And I says, this landlord got money. He said, yeah. And, and is he a nutcase? Yeah. [00:20:00] If you go after a nutcase with money in the court system, you know, get ready there. You, you ain’t ever gonna get any satisfaction. They’re gonna keep you tied up for years. It’s not worth it. But, so that’s side. Joe Ford: Go ahead. I, I can’t make up I don’t think I’m dealing with a nutcase, but it’s just someone I’m sure who believes he was in the right. But if he would look over his own documents, he would see that no. In fact, maybe you, you were let down. You, you took some shortcuts, you didn’t do your homework. Yeah. And uh, all you need to do is give up the car and then go after the guy who sold you a stolen car. It’s that simple. Gary jenkins: Yeah. I have to ask, as a lawyer, are you in a American, United States courts, or are you in European courts? Joe Ford: I’m in, uh, Wisconsin because the, the car was stolen outta Milwaukee, so a Milwaukee state court. That’s where I’m at. Yeah. But the car is in Europe Gary jenkins: or is it back in the United Oh, it’s back in the United States. Joe Ford: Okay. It’s sequestered in Ma Massachusetts in a really nice shop in Massachusetts where it’s climate controlled storage. So. We just, once we finish this [00:21:00] lawsuit, you know, we’ll be awarded the car. Yeah, yeah. Stayton: Yeah. So, Gary, Gary, just, just for your clarity for your listeners too so once Joe was notified of the stolen car’s existence by this mechanic who had you know, been working with the alleged de. That’s when he began really researching it. Uh, the purchaser of this vehicle, a very wealthy individual who actually started very interesting story, started his own dental practice built it up, built his own software system to handle his own backend for his multiple dental offices. Lo and behold, that software system then became worth a lot more than pulling people’s teeth. And he started, uh, a company. That is, is now worth, hundreds of millions of dollars on paper at least. And, um, that’s when he, he began buying and selling rare cars. This individual bought the car, uh, for over $7 million you know, imported it into the United States. And when he tried to register it, uh, that’s when it triggered as being [00:22:00] stolen on a database list. Okay. That’s right. And that’s when authorities went to seize it. So the car is still in, in litigation and dispute. Uh, the crim, the criminal side of it was charges were dismissed. The alleged thief was arrested overseas, uh, brought over to the United States, held it in, uh, in prison in Wisconsin for years. And until, uh, finally charges were dropped, and then he went free. And but the actual dispute over ownership of the car continues to this day, and the car is currently being held as Joe said by a restoration shock outside of Boston until all matters are settled. Wow. Gary jenkins: So this, go ahead. This super rich guy was arrested over in Europe, brought back in custody and put in a county jail, probably two or three county jails by the time they got him back to Wisconsin and held there. The, Stayton: so the, the wealthy individual who purchased the vehicle’s, been in the United States the whole time. He’s just a car collector. Oh, okay. This is the in between the, [00:23:00] the intermediary. Gary jenkins: Yeah. He, okay, I Stayton: gotcha. He, well, he, he was the purchaser and so he bought the vehicle, he hired people to go do the vetting overseas in Switzerland. On the vehicle. It was the alleged thief, uh, uh, who was living overseas, and he was the individual who was arrested and brought over and the charges were dropped. Joe Ford: I gotcha. By the way, the charges were dropped because my partner, who was the key witness died and the west attorney decided that he might not be able to prove his case without this key witness. Mm-hmm. So is this guy Gary jenkins: kind of guy that goes around and spotting cars like that and stealing, was that kind of his, his occupation, if you will? Or is this just a happenstance thing? Joe Ford: Well, uh, it. The FBI located the other two thieves who did this heist for this car, and they said that this guy from Switzerland was also planning to steal some other cars and asking for their help. Those never came to fruition, but apparently there, there was the [00:24:00] game plan that these cars the few that were not already in museums were targets. Because these cars belong in museums. They’re pieces of automotive history that as well as phenomenal design. This car has a racing chassis. A racing motor. That’s why when Tommy Lee, the man in California, would bring it out to the Mojave Dry Lakes, he would win against the hot rods. And this ball was 1938 and he was racing against 1945 cars. It’s, you know, it’s that good of a car. Wow. And, Stayton: and to answer your question, Gary, yes. I, I interviewed one of the, uh, a person who said he was a thief, uh, who stole the car that night, along with, uh, the alleged mastermind behind it. Um, and he, he described to me in great detail how it went down, how they cased the place, uh, went in after, after dark, uh, and then went through this very arduous journey. To you know, take out what was in pieces, this rare car and put it in the back of a, of a [00:25:00] truck and drive it from Milwaukee back down south to Florida. And you know, at one point he described really the paperwork, uh, and the alleged thief that the person he said was behind it all you know, knowing exactly where to go and take it all. But that said, there, there were some key pieces of paperwork left behind. Which the alleged thief pointed out. But I did also interview a gentleman in Texas who said he had been defrauded by this same alleged thief years ago. He was a wealthy Texan, uh, who just, you know was really into cars. And what he alleged was he had bought what he thought was a specific type of car when it arrived at the airport there in Dallas. And he went to go pick it up. It was not the same type of car. It was kind of modified to look like what he thought he had bought. It was actually a car of lesser value, and, and it, he had trouble making it work. He then pursued this individual for years and he says he eventually found through his legal team the alleged thief in Florida, and basically running [00:26:00] an operation of, of buying, of taking cars and then remaking them to seem they were a, a different car of higher value. So there, there, there are trails of, uh, other allegations, uh, against him. Gary jenkins: Got another cautionary Joe Ford: tale Gary jenkins: there. Joe Ford: It’s like with fine art, you have to come up through the ranks to know about these vehicles being so special. And then if you go to the dark side, you might try to counterfeit documents or counterfeit a car. You might buy a chassis of a similar car, modify it, put a brand new body on it, and try to sell it as an original. So it’s just like counterfeiting artwork. And these guys are masters. I mean, this guy who did this was a con artist, this Chris Gardner Con artist. He earned his name artist. He’s a con artist. Gary jenkins: It’s crazy. Joe, is there other, uh, car cases that are kind of interesting you’d like to tell people about? Joe Ford: Uh, there are others and they are very interesting, but I can’t go [00:27:00] into it. No. Gary jenkins: We talked a little bit. What about the Aston Martin? That was, uh, one of the James Bond cars and Goldfinger that disappeared out of a uh, uh, uh. Airport garage down in Florida somewhere. What, tell me a little bit about that one. Joe Ford: There’s lots of theories. In fact, one of the fees in this case suspected the mastermind. Chris Gardner was also involved in that theft. We have no evidence at that time, but it’s, it’s a good working theory to begin. And that car, I think, has been located, I saw some pictures recently by somebody who I, I can’t name, and it was in, in a collection. And just like you said before, there are some wealthy collectors who just don’t care about anything other than having this coveted item in their basement or garage. So, and let me, Stayton: let me give you a little context on the car, Gary. So this was a car. From the James Bond film Goldfinger starring Sean Connery, [00:28:00] obviously the very famed Aston Martin from that movie, which really kickstarted all the James Bond Aston Martin cars. So there, there were two vehicles made for that film. Or, you know, used in that film, one was kind of a, a road car where they would actually film the scenes driving. And then the other was this stuck car, right? Because that was the car that had the machine guns pop up, had, flame throwers, all sorts of stuff on it. You know, when they, when they finished filming, they just got rid of it. They were like, this thing is worthless. Who cares? Uh, so that car traded hands for years between various collectors ended up. In the hands of, of a wealthy real estate mogul, uh, in the Boca Raton area. And he, he was an interesting guy. I think he had Indiana Jones’ Bull Whip. He had, uh, some items from the Wizard of Oz. He was just a collector. Yeah. Uh, and he kept this car in a hangar, uh, in his private you know, airport hangar there. And in the middle of the night. Kind of a similar [00:29:00] deal. Thieves broke into the hangar. No one’s exactly sure what happened. Uh, there were various. Theories. There were apparently, skid marks there that, and indicated one theory was it was loaded onto a cargo plane and flew off into the night. Other people, uh, would, this made news when it was stolen, uh, you know, claim to have seen it all sorts of places. It was in the Keys, it was somewhere in Appalachia. Uh, nobody really knew. But again, uh, it was, it was probably one of the more famous stolen cars of all time now worth. Millions of dollars. I interviewed another individual and there’s a whole subculture. I interviewed various detectives beyond Joe. A lot of them work for these insurance companies. So basically the police, frankly, probably are, are busy on, on other things. They’re not gonna be the folks who are gonna find this stuff. It’s really the high-end insurance company who’s on the hook for the tens of millions of dollars. They have an incentive to have their own [00:30:00] investigator. You know, tracking down these cars to try to find ’em. So I talked to an individual working with them, or these insurance companies. He had been looking for this car for years. There was a theory, it was bought by a, a, you know, some wealthy individual in the Middle East, and it was in some warehouse full of all sorts of cars. But really it was in the course of this investigation when, as Joe points out, I, I did interview a person who said he had stolen the Tableau logo along with the alleged mastermind. He said he recalled this person and the FBI agent said that they had heard this person talking about, uh, the James Bond car. And so that was a theory. They, it was, he was around the same time, it was similar, uh, circumstances. So, uh, there was a theory which of course the alleged thief, uh, disputed, uh, that, that he had somehow been involved with that. But again maybe Joe has an update. I don’t know. Joe Ford: No updates. Sorry. Gary jenkins: He is not talking. But it’s, it’s covered in, it’s covered in the book. It’s too soon. Okay. Oh, [00:31:00] alright. Cool. Good luck guys. You gotta get this book. It, its, it’s a fascinating look into this. World that we usually don’t, you know, kind of hear about and it doesn’t make a hell of a movie. You know, they’ve got that gone in 60 seconds and they out and steal all these fancy cars. But the actual tracing of, you know, who the casing of the place, picking the car, casing it, getting it, the paperwork trail that going from one owner to another and, you know, over into Europe and everything. Make a heck of a movie. Maybe you guys will get the screen rights sold on this. Stayton: What you think. Yeah. And, and there’s a, you know, and Joe in this alleged thief that had a fallout earlier over another stolen car, a rare, uh, Ferrari. Joe, do you wanna talk about that one briefly? Joe Ford: Well, yeah. That, that’s this Ferrari race car here. Uh, ultimately was located and sold to Les Wexner for around 18 million. Involved a, a sale, a illegitimate sale through a high-end auction house. After we [00:32:00] finally settled the case and one of the board of directors of the auction house resigned right after we settled ’cause he had been. Tricked into believing somebody else owned this Ferrari, when in fact, it was myself and my Ohio partner who owned it, and they sold it in London. So it was international borders and you know, a lot of litigation, litigation in Ohio. That’s where the original theft was, Cincinnati, Ohio, and then exported to Belgium, hidden under a phony VIN number because it was so rare of a car. They just don’t make many of them. And then, uh, finally when the guy was on his deathbed. He tries to settle up and square away the paperwork. He contacts the Ohio heirs and then he sues them to try to clear up title ’cause he’s on his deathbed and he knows his daughter can’t do anything with the car in, in its current status. So that litigation took another six years to resolve and ended up having. Squirrely people come out of the [00:33:00] woodwork claiming ownership of the same car. ’cause the car was once raced in South America since there was somebody from South America who said he owned it. And of course the history and the, the track record and provenance proved otherwise. But you, you get all kind of, uh, crazy people come out of the woodwork when there’s high stakes on the table. Stayton: And this, this was another, another case, Gary, of, of, again a kind of a, a, a wealthy, uh, retired. Actually nuclear scientist, this gentleman in Ohio who had owned the car for years, had worked on the Manhattan Project. He had, then become, uh, disillusioned, uh, with, what he had done there. Also, similar to what happened to Tab Lago kind of became a recluse. Had these vast junkyards full of mostly just junk cars or, or like pieces of airplane, or he would just tinker. He is a brilliant kind of, a lot of these guys are kind of like almost mad scientist guys who would tinker with these things. But it [00:34:00] became known that amidst all this pile of junk, there was this very rare old Ferrari again, after Ferrari himself dies. And these cars become more valuable. That’s when people found out about that car. Same deal. Uh, in the middle of the night, someone cut a fence took the car, loaded it on a trailer, uh, that went down to Georgia and eventually made its way, uh, to Europe, uh, via kind of back channels and, and fraudulent paperwork. So it’s, you know, what’s compelling about this is. Frankly, the logistics, these cars, these cars are amazing pieces of history and art, which it was fun for me to really report on this. And it’s a, it’s a great read to, to learn the history of this car, this Ferrari, raced car that it raced in South America, had raced in all these places. Absolutely beautiful car. And, you know, and, and then wound up in the hands of these kind of you know, unique eclectic collectors and then [00:35:00] stolen. But it’s not like, you know, you think about those guys who, who robbed the louv. I mean, they’re moving hot jewelry. That’s not easy. Can you imagine moving a hot, you know, giant car? Like just the logistics and the operations of this. Are really fascinating. So the book really does go into detail not only in the personal stories surrounding this, obviously Joe and the alleged thief and, and kind of, uh, former associates turned enemies. Uh, but also in, in these cars and the actual mechanics of how you move stolen very rare, tens of millions of dollar cars across international borders. Um, and it’s, it’s just, it’s just an amazing story. Gary jenkins: It sounds, it really sounds like to me that’s what attracted to me when I got the, uh, email from your publicist. I thought that this is a, it is not mafia, but it is a really interesting story that I wanna know more about myself. Uh, guys, I really appreciate y’all coming on the show as Staton Bonner and Joe Ford, the Million Dollar Detective. Uh, it’s just been fascinating, guys, and you guys, I’ll have links to that, uh, book, [00:36:00] uh, Amazon link to that book down in the show notes. So you listeners check those show notes. Yeah. Million Stayton: dollar, million dollar car detective. Thank you Gary. Thanks so, so much for having, I left the car out. Gary jenkins: Million dollar car detective. Thanks Gary. Sounds good. Thank. Thank you.

Transcribed - Published: 16 February 2026

In this episode of Gangland Wire,host Gary Jenkins takes listeners deep into one of the most chilling and revealing moments in Chicago mob history—a secretive 1967 party held at the legendary Edgewater Beach Hotel. What appeared on the surface to be a lavish celebration was, in reality, a tightly controlled gathering of roughly 300 mobsters, political figures, and underworld insiders. The occasion marked the 40th birthday of feared Chicago Outfit enforcer Fiore "Fifi" Buccieri , a man whose reputation for violence made him one of the most dangerous figures in the city.   Despite not being invited, veteran journalist Bob Wiedrich managed to infiltrate the event, raising serious questions about security, secrecy, and the true purpose behind the gathering. This was no ordinary party. Federal surveillance later revealed that the Federal Bureau of Investigation had the room bugged, capturing disturbing conversations—including laughter and casual recollections of torture and murder by Buccieri and his associates.  Central to this episode is Buccieri ’s alleged role in the brutal torture and murder of William "Action" Jackson, a crime that horrified even seasoned law-enforcement agents. These wiretap recordings provide rare insight into the mindset of mob enforcers and the normalization of extreme violence within the Chicago Outfit during the 1960s.   The timing of the party was critical. Chicago boss Sam Giancana had recently been released from prison, and rumors swirled that major power moves were underway. Evidence suggests this birthday celebration doubled as a covert mob summit, where leadership issues, alliances, and strategic decisions were quietly discussed away from public view. This party was a who’s who of the Chicago Outfit. Men like Mike Glitta, Teets Battalgia, Ceaser DiVarco, Ross Prio, Larry The Hood Bounaguidi, Irvin Weiner, Dominic DiBello, Wee Willie Messino, Joseph Cortino ( former chief of police in Forest Park and several others.  You will learn how Anthony Accardo and his driver Jackie Cerone avoided the scene when the cops started taking pictures and writing down names. I also explore the role of the Santa Fe Saddle and Gun Club, an organization tied to questionable fundraising activities that blurred the lines between organized crime, business interests, and local politics. These raffles and social events weren’t just about money—they were about influence, access, and control.   Throughout the episode, I break down the cast of characters who attended this gathering: loan sharks, enforcers, racketeers, and political fixers. Their interconnected stories reveal a dense web of loyalty, fear, and ambition that defined the Chicago mob scene at its peak.   This episode uses the Edgewater Beach Hotel as more than a setting—it becomes a symbol of mob glamour masking ruthless criminal reality. It’s a reminder of how deeply organized crime once penetrated American society, and why these stories continue to fascinate, disturb, and resonate today. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/gangland-wire--5504357/support. Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies. Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or your favorite podcast app. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer use @ganglandwire Click here to "buy me a cup of coffee" To go to the store or make a donation click here.   To rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent Brothers against Brothers, click here. To rent Gangland Wire, click here.

Transcribed - Published: 9 February 2026