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Leading Saints Podcast

Zion Today, Not Someday | An Interview with Dan Duckworth

Leading Saints Podcast

Leading Saints

Religion & Spirituality, Christianity

4.9 • 1.2K Ratings

🗓️ 15 July 2025

⏱️ 47 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Dan Duckworth speaks, teaches, and writes on leadership, power, and systemic change. His forthcoming book, The Leader in Chains (spring 2026), challenges conventional ideas and calls for a radical rethinking of leadership—and how it is developed. You can read his Zion Leadership essays at danduckworth.substack.com or connect with him on LinkedIn.


Links

LeadingSaints.org/Zion
DanDuckworth.Substack.com
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Highlights
In this episode, Dan Duckworth engages in a thought-provoking discussion about the concept of Zion and its implications for leadership within the context of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He begins by addressing the common resistance to transformational leadership in church settings, noting that many members feel uncomfortable with the idea of change-making. Dan emphasizes that the principles of leadership are deeply rooted in scripture, particularly in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

He articulates the need for a "faithful vocabulary of leadership" that resonates with church members, moving away from secular leadership jargon that may not align with their beliefs. Dan challenges the traditional view of hierarchy in church leadership, asserting that God's ways are different from man's ways. He references the Doctrine and Covenants, specifically highlighting that in Zion, there shall be no king or ruler, suggesting that true leadership should not be about hierarchy but about unity and collaboration.

Dan elaborates on the idea that Zion is not merely a future state but a present social condition characterized by a people who are of one heart and one mind. He encourages listeners to reflect on their own communities—families, wards, and councils—asking whether they operate under a hierarchical structure or if they embody the principles of Zion. He argues that the work of building Zion requires breaking free from systemic forces that constrain behavior and perpetuate the status quo.

Dan also explains that leadership involves creating space for individuals to use their gifts and talents, rather than adhering strictly to established hierarchies. He emphasizes that leaders should discern the needs of their communities and empower others to step into leadership roles, regardless of formal titles or positions.

Dan shares a scriptural example from the Old Testament, recounting how Moses responded to the concerns of Joshua regarding unauthorized prophecy. Moses expresses a desire for all people to be prophets, highlighting the importance of recognizing and nurturing the gifts within the community. He contrasts this with the story of Aaron and Miriam, who are chastised for their desire to lead without the proper authority, illustrating the balance between recognizing divine gifts and maintaining order.

Dan underscores the significance of understanding the difference between appointed leaders and true leaders. He notes that a bishop, while holding an ecclesiastical role, may not necessarily be a leader in the transformative sense. Instead, he should act as a facilitator, allowing the gifts of others to flourish and ensuring that the community operates in alignment with God's mercies.

Transcript

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saints thing? Well, Leading Saints is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping Latter-day Saints

0:12.4

be better prepared to lead. And the way we do that is through content creation. So we have

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this phenomenal podcast, we have a newsletter, we have virtual conferences, so much more. Articles on our website. I mean, I could go on and on, right? And we

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and type in some topics and see what pops up. We're just glad you're here to join us.

0:41.1

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0:47.7

we don't want to burden those we lead, but meetings can seem to do that more often than not.

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We wanted to address the pain of meetings through the Meetings with Saints Library.

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Here we have 15 plus presentations dedicated to improving the meetings we run.

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We have experts in the field addressing topics like getting people involved in meetings,

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staying on task, dealing with conflict in meetings, and a ton more.

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1:17.5

You can do this by visiting leadingsaints.org slash 14. That's leadingsaints.org

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1:28.8

topics.

1:29.6

It's really good stuff.

1:30.8

So visit leadingsaints.org slash 14 or click the link in the show notes.

1:39.5

Everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Leading Saints podcast.

1:43.7

This one's going to be a little bit different, at least the format, because we got a lot of good things happening over at the Leading Saints community.

1:50.6

And I bet many of you are thinking, what?

1:52.6

What's the Leading Saints community?

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