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Hello and welcome to the Americano podcast, a series of discussions about American power, politics and society.

On each episode, I will talk to an American expert or an expert on America

about something that's going on in America in 2023. I'm very pleased to be joined today

by Jacob Harbrun, the editor of the national interest. And I think I could say our resident

Trumpphobe at the Americano podcast,

he's looking a bit ambiguous about that introduction. Jacob, we're going to talk about

Donald Trump's indictment, which emerged last night, was revealed last night. On 30 counts relating

to fraud, the indictment is still sealed, I believe,

unless it's been unsealed in the last half hour or so.

And it's a big moment.

It's a big historical moment, whichever way you look at it,

a president, the last president, first president to be criminally indicted,

and the leading contender to be the

prohogny next year is being indicted trumpists are saying that this is the weaponization of justice

that america is looking like a banana republic do you disagree i don't think that it's looking like a banana republic. Do you disagree? I don't think that it's looking

like a banana republic, quite the contrary. The problem with the American presidency is that it has

grown into the imperial presidency, and presidents, American presidents, have operated with

impunity, particularly since World War I. And this has been a longstanding conservative concern,

in fact. And maybe the problem isn't that Trump has been indicted, but that no one before him has,

and that other presidents have gotten away Scott free with outrageous behavior.

In this case, you have both Trump's legal predicament and the political fallout, which have to be distinguished. My gut is that Trump may be in

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