I think part of the problem we have is just how politics have shifted over the last kind of few, few years.

So views that are now probably considered fairly mainstream, 20 years ago, 30 years ago would have been seen as extreme.

There is this ecosystem now where 20 years ago, 30 years ago, there was literally a social and economic consequence for being a far-out activist.

You lost your job, you got shunned by your family and your friends.

Now you earn a good living, and by a good living.

I mean, Tommy Robinson, whether his money goes directly into his bank account or to other accounts,

will earn millions every year.

Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World.

I'm Christian Guru Murphy, and this is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people

about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have helped shape them.

My guest today is Nick Lowell, who has spent three decades fighting racism and extremism.

In 2004, he founded the advocacy group Hope Not Hate, which became instrumental in defeating

the far-right British National Party.

Under his leadership, Hope Not Hate has become a leading voice in the UK against hate groups

and far-right extremism, whilst Nick himself has become the target of countless threats.

His new book, How to Defeat the Far Right, Lessons from Hope Not Hate,

tells the story of how intolerance and hate have grown in Western societies and what can

be done to counter them.

Welcome, Nick.

I mean, you spent a lifetime trying to change the world.

If we allowed you to just change it in one

fell swoop, which lever would you pull? What a question. I guess what I'd say is we should all

...