But what needs to happen is that governments need to also be not just the promoters, but also

by themselves with public institutions, the producers of the technologies that we want.

And they need to create the spaces for the population to discuss about what technologies to produce,

what technologies shouldn't be produced, and why.

Thank you. be produced and why? Hello and welcome to Tech Won't Save Us, made in partnership with The Nation

Magazine. I'm your host, Paris Marks, and this week my guest is Cecilia Rickap. Cecilia. Hello and welcome to Tech Won't Save Us, made in partnership with The Nation magazine.

I'm your host, Paris Marks, and this week my guest is Cecilia Rickap.

Cecilia is an associate professor in economics at University College London and head of research at the Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose.

Cecilia was in our Data Vampire series, but, you know, has never been on the show properly. So I figured it was a good time to

have a conversation with her. And just to be totally clear, this interview initially

appeared on another podcast called Politics Theory Other that I was guest hosting earlier this

month. And it had so much relevance to what we talk about on this podcast. And it was a conversation that I wanted to have

anyway, that I was happy that Alex, the regular host of Politics Theory, Other, allowed me to

share it with all of you as well. And I would highly recommend checking out his podcast too,

because he has some fantastic conversations there on politics, geopolitics, and so many of the things that I think

you would be interested in as a listener of this show as well, and just assuming that we

probably share similar-ish politics in common, I would imagine. But anyway, in this conversation,

we talk about digital sovereignty. We talk about the costs and the threats that come with

our dependence on U.S. tech companies

for the most part, but that can also be extended to Chinese tech companies in particular as they

become a more powerful and global force.

Cecilia and I start by talking about the UK because it does seem like such an emblematic

...