Who Pays? The Unfair Economics of Climate Finance
Outrage + Optimism: The Climate Podcast
Persephonica
4.7 • 1.1K Ratings
🗓️ 5 March 2026
⏱️ 35 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
This week we acknowledge the US strikes on Iran and the escalation that has followed. The immediate human cost is what matters most right now. But this crisis is unfolding within a global system still shaped by oil markets and fossil fuel dependence - a dependence that amplifies regional instability and turns into global vulnerability.
The same structural tensions sit at the heart of this week’s conversation, recorded before these events. Indonesia is the world's fourth most populous country, one of its largest coal exporters, and a nation with every natural resource it needs to transition to clean energy. The problem isn't will, it’s money. Who it's available to, and on what terms.
Christiana Figueres, Tom Rivett-Carnac and Paul Dickinson are joined by Sri Mulyani Indrawati - Indonesia's former Finance Minister under three different presidents, former Managing Director of the World Bank, and one of the most credible voices in the world on exactly this set of challenges. She walks through what it actually costs to retire a single coal plant years ahead of schedule, why developing countries find themselves trapped by contracts they signed in good faith, and why the international finance system is making the transition harder, not easier.
Countries like Indonesia borrow at far higher rates than wealthier economies, even as they face greater exposure to climate impacts. When that exposure feeds into credit ratings, the cost of capital rises, making clean energy investment more expensive precisely where it is needed most.
In a system that makes decarbonisation harder for the countries most vulnerable to climate impacts, who pays?
Learn More:
🏭 Explore Global Energy Monitor's coal plant tracker for Indonesia's existing and planned capacity
🎧 Listen to our interview with Mia Mottley, Prime Minister of Barbados.
🏦 Learn about the Bridgetown Agenda and its proposals to reform international development finance
🎤 Leave us your voice notes and questions for upcoming episodes on SpeakPipe
Join the conversation:
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Or get in touch with us via this form.
Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks
Edited by: Miles Martignoni
Planning: Caitlin Hanrahan
Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford
This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Hi, everyone. It's Tom here. We're going to get into the episode in just a second. But before we do, we just wanted to start by acknowledging the remarkable events in Iran over the course of the last week with the US strikes and the subsequent regional escalation. We will get into this in the coming weeks. Like so much else that happens in the world, we should, of course, focus on the immediate impacts and how to resolve them. |
| 0:21.5 | But underneath this lies a deeper story about climate, a deeper story about fossil fuel dependence |
| 0:27.0 | being a geopolitical vulnerability, about all of us being affected by price spikes as a result |
| 0:34.0 | of activities in regions well beyond our borders that we don't control. |
| 0:38.1 | Whether or not this will accelerate or derail the transition to a clean economy |
| 0:42.2 | will depend largely on the political choices that are made off the back of this. |
| 0:46.6 | But for now, we wanted to acknowledge this major impact. |
| 0:49.1 | We, like you, are thinking very much of all of the human beings |
| 0:53.2 | that are affected by what is happening in that region. |
| 0:55.7 | But for today, we want to turn our attention to another very consequential country, and that is |
| 1:00.3 | Indonesia. And we're bringing you a conversation with Sri Mulyani Indrawati, the former Minister |
| 1:05.7 | of Finance, who we have wanted to get on the podcast for a long time. So we'll come back to |
| 1:09.7 | Iran and the Middle East in a future episode. |
| 1:11.6 | But for today, here is our conversation about Indonesia. |
| 1:18.7 | Hello and welcome to outrage and optimism. |
| 1:20.7 | I'm Tom Rivakhani. |
| 1:21.5 | I'm Christiana Figuera. |
| 1:22.6 | And I'm Paul Bekinson. |
| 1:23.7 | Today we are going to be discussing the challenges and the opportunities of the just energy transition |
| 1:28.8 | in Indonesia. And we speak to former finance minister Sri Mulyani Indrawati. Thanks for being here. |
| 1:38.8 | Okay, friends, so this is a topic we've wanted to do for ages. Indonesia is such a consequential |
| 1:43.9 | country on the world stage. |
... |
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