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Little prices, big smiles.

I'm John Bachelors. This is the new John Bachelors show continuing with Josh Rogan, the author of the new book, Chaos Under Heaven.

Trump, Xi and the Battle for the 21st Century. 2017 sets the scale of the operation for the Trump administration.

We have competing factions within large personalities. 2017 ends with Donald Trump traveling to Asia.

The APEC meeting, acknowledging that Xi is president for life of the people's republic of China, and also mixing in the fact that Wall Street has ambitions to continue to invest and profit in China.

It's a giant market. However, now we have to introduce something I learned about for the first time in Josh's book.

The Bingo Club. Josh, what is the Bingo Club?

The Bingo Club was a group of government officials, congressional staffers, experts, and even a couple journalists who met frequently in Washington in 2017 and 2018 to discuss Chinese malign foreign influence and interference in American politics and in American society.

This is an issue that in 2021 we talk about quite openly, but in that time and space, it was something that no part of the US government was pointed at and that nobody was really discussing in public.

Because of that, this group had a huge influence on not only how the US government operated when looking for and then dealing with instances of Chinese Communist Party interference and influence operations, but it also had a big sort of

impact on how those issues eventually spilled out into various parts of our policy, especially in Congress.

The fact that that group had the meeting secret just tells you about what the discussion about US and China was in our public discourse at that time and it was really seen as difficult to talk about because it's designed to be difficult to talk about.

What we're talking about is the Chinese Communist Party is united front and what is that? Well, that's the multi-billion dollar organization that they have to sponsor all over the world projects that operate in the space between overt propaganda, the kind of stuff you see every day, and secret espionage, which is the kind of stuff that all countries do.

In that middle space are actions that are seemingly public but conceal a covert purpose. In other words, when you see a Confucius Institute at an American University, well, is that malign or is that just people learning Chinese?

And the answer is that sometimes it's one and sometimes the other. And because that's a very difficult thing to sort of wrap your head around, first the community experts had to come to figure out how to talk about it amongst themselves before they could start to explain it to the rest of the world.

There are personalities to mention here, Josh, because it's easy to remember them. Jack Ma described as the richest man in China, maybe the world at some point, depending on Alibaba and his other enterprises, was fresh face in America, traveling to greater plows.

I remember news that he bought a large piece of New York State. He was buying real estate at the time. And the then Mrs. Murdoch, Wendy Dong Murdoch, was a large personality as well, although that marriage ended eventually ended.

The fact is that her presence suggested that China was integrating into American culture. Also, we have the story of Elaine Chao, who is married to Mitch McConnell, then majority leader of the United States Senate Republican.

And I see on the Chao story, which you tell very succinctly, because it is difficult to tell whether this is Chinese influence or whether it's just good old government because Elaine Chao's family is a respected and prominent Taiwanese family.

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