Today I'm sitting down with songwriter, worship leader, recording artist, author, John Mark McMillan.

He wrote the song, How He Loves Us. You've probably sang that song before if you had any experience in church. It's a really fun, fascinating, deep conversation that we have. I think you're going to get a lot out of it. Before we jump into that, two quick things. Number one, we have our dad tired retreat coming up very, very soon. If you have not signed up for that, make sure you do.

If you want a church discount, if you have about five or more guys going to come with you, just email us. You can go to dadtire.com. Click the annual retreat tab. Shoot us an email and we can get you a discount on group tickets if you plan on bringing a big group from your church. We'd love to hook you up with that. Also, we're doing dad tired conferences all over the country and world. If you are

interested, group tickets if you plan on bringing a big group from your church. We'd love to hook you up with that. Also, we're doing Dad Tired conferences all over the country and world. If you are interested in hosting one of these at your church, you can go to Dadtire.com. Click the one-day conferences tab, and we can get you more information on how to host one of these or attend one of these in your area. That being said, let's dive into today's episode. John Mark, super excited, man, to be hanging out with you today. You know, sometimes you, before you hit record, you can kind of get a gauge like, I'd be friends with this guy if, you know, if we weren't just recording this podcast. And I feel like that already, just in the few minutes that we've had a chance to hang out together. I wish we could hang out more informally

and grab a bite to eat or whatever

and just get to know each other.

But we do have a chance now.

So for the audience who may not be familiar with you,

tell us who you are and what you're up to these days.

Yep. So my name is John Mark McMillan.

I'm still figuring out who I am. but I have done things over the years you may be

aware of, written songs, recorded albums, done tours. I started in maybe sort of the

worship leader world and sort of slid out into the singer-songwriter world. Had a moment when I was sort of the worship leader world and sort of slid out into the singer-songwriter world.

Had a moment when I was sort of trying to figure out where I fit as far as between the like sacred,

secular boxes that we've all kind of created that may or may not actually exist, you know, the shelves we've

made to present ourselves in the world and sell music or whatever. You know, and in the last few

years, I've moved a little bit back towards the sacred. And recently, I almost quit music. I made a post that I was quitting. And I decided to pursue

a life as a writer, not writing music, but writing books. And then I also realized that I still

really loved music. And so music is a bit of a side quest for me.

I'm still doing musical things as it makes sense, but I am focused on writing.

And so that's kind of where I'm at now.

I'm writing a handful of books.

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