Hello and welcome to Trigganometry. I'm Frances Foster. I'm Constantin Kissin. And this isn't a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

Our brilliant guest is returning for her second time on the show. She is the New York editor of Spectator to USA. Melissa Chen, welcome back to the show.

Hi, Constantin. Hi, Frances. Thanks for having me back.

Oh, it's so good to have you back. Listen, we talked to you last time. I think it was about September 2019.

We talked primarily about China, the way it's using its power in the world, the impact that the CCP is having on all of us wherever we live.

Well, one or two things have happened since then that have made that even more a thing that is present in our life. Talk to us about what you've seen over last year and a half.

I mean, needless to say at the time that we were taping it, it was not on anyone's radar really unless you were a China watcher or really focused on geopolitics.

But somewhere around October 2019, things were already brewing in Wuhan on the ground and our lives were about to be completely upended in ways that we just couldn't anticipate.

And when 2020 hit, everything hit the fan and, you know, it's been a really interesting year.

Coronavirus has kind of accelerated so much of the trends. So, you know, almost every trend that we've seen, whether it's in work, you know, working from home, whether it's on globalization, supply chain sovereignty, or even just the concern about China and China's role in the world.

All these trends have really been kind of accelerated or at least brought to the forefront in the last year or so.

And China's action since then has really not been that of a responsible world actor.

And so stuff that I was talking about in 2019 to both of you has really become relevant in a way that in 2020 made me seem like, you know, I was some sort of like a psychic or something.

But the trends were already there. And the signs were already there. And, you know, I would say like several people, you know, even in the Trump administration had already acted in ways to counter China's increasing assertiveness.

But look at bipartisan agreement on China right now. Look at popular opinion in America. I think 90% of people in America actually agree that China is a competitor and a rival.

It is not, you know, a partner to the United States. We're not going to be able to develop and get rich together.

We are actually geo strategic rivals. And so all these have really kind of shifted in the last year.

And it's a very profound like paradigm shift.

And you say it's a very profound paradigm shift. And we've seen, you know, what's happened with the coronavirus. I mean, how much responsibility should China take for this?

Well, I mean, it's really interesting because, you know, we're talking at a time now when the whole lably hypothesis has been, you know, sort of short up again.

And so it's it's percolating in the press, something that was completely apparently a debunked conspiracy for the last year.

You know, since early early on, I would say in January, February, there were people talking about this. What are the odds that, you know, in the city where there were two, not just one, there were actually two labs that house bill for facilities, studying these bad coronaviruses would be the source or the first place where COVID 19 shows up.

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