This is the Jocco Unraveling podcast episode 11 with Darrell Cooper and me, Jocco Willink.

The last episode.

Well we started off by talking about the deaths of despair, suicide, alcoholism, drug overdoses,

obviously horrible.

But sometimes as things unravel, some people don't get despaired, sometimes people look

to fix things or change things.

Sometimes people look to change things by changing people, and some people look to change things

by making adjustments in the way the world is framed.

Either way, in desperate times people can get desperate, people can become vulnerable.

Other people go on offense and take advantage of that vulnerability.

And sometimes vulnerability can be morphed into something completely and utterly different.

Sometimes vulnerability becomes revolutionary.

It's a little transition that takes place sometimes.

Talk to me about that transition.

I like the way you put it that something could become something else.

I notice this isn't really by design, but when I look for stories from my other podcast

from artimade, I tend so far anyway, I have tended toward stories about people or movements,

about organizations that start out with such a great idea.

Every terrible story begins with everything started out so well.

But then when those ideals, they haven't counted any resistance yet, those ideals, this vision

that you have, runs into the rocks of reality.

Sometimes people become bitter, sometimes people become conspiratorial, sometimes people just

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