You are listening to the War on the Rocks podcast on strategy, defense, and foreign affairs.

My name is Ryan Evans, I'm the founder of Warren the Rocks.

We don't typically do book podcasts, and this isn't really that, but it's a smart conversation

on Ukraine with three friends of mine who that Hal Brands, one of the

with three friends of mine who all contributed chapters

to a new book called Warren Ukraine

that Hal Brands, one of the guests on this episode,

edited. The other two guests on this episode edited.

The other two guests are Alexander Bick and Andrea Kendall Taylor.

It's a great book and this was a great conversation about the war.

Hope you enjoy it.

This is actually the first episode I've recorded in a while talking

about Ukraine without Michael Kaufman and it's good to be here with three friends

to help me through this emotionally difficult transition, but if you could all

introduce yourselves and tell us where you work?

Alex Pick, I'm an associate professor of the practice at the University of Virginia and there at Baton

School.

I spent three years in the Biden administration, first as director for strategic planning at the National Security Council,

and then as a senior advisor and member of the policy planning staff at the State Department. And we'll dig more into that later on I'm sure.

And I'm Andrea Kendall Taylor and I am the director and senior fellow in the

Transatlantic security program at the Center for a New American Security or

CNAS. I work for about a decade in the US intelligence community mostly at CIA but

...