This is exactly right.

The courtroom isn't just about justice. It's about power and money and some truly bizarre loopholes.

I'm Michael Foote. And I'm Melissa Malbranche, and we've got a brand new show called Brief Recess, Illegal Podcast.

Every week, we talk about wild tales from court, trials gone wrong, and cases and rulings that shape our world.

Today we're going to be talking about stolen antiquities, all the weird things Melissa found at in a state sale, the crazy conversations I had with the bouncer and J.K. Rowling. We make the complicated clear and the serious, surprisingly fun. From the exactly right network, new episodes of Brief Recess drop every Thursday. Watch Brief Recess on YouTube. Listen to Brief Recess on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.

And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of

America's most complicated cases and solve them. Each week, I present Paul with one of history's

most compelling true crimes. And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new

insights to old mysteries. Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases

through a 21st century lens. Some are solved, and some are cold, very cold. This is

Buried Bones. Hey, Paul.

Hi, Kate. You're wearing your glasses today. I know. My eyes were itchy and I just couldn't do the contacts today. Don't shame me, listeners. Sometimes I can't do it. So I was thinking about you in your white jacket role at Othrum, which I know you don't wear a white jacket than you're there, but that's how I picture you. Oh, geez. And I wanted to ask you a little bit about what is the

evolution of forensics? Where are we heading? I always keep thinking, oh, DNA is going to get better and

better. DNA analysis will get more accurate. There has to be something sexier than that. And I know that evolving DNA and getting better at the analysis of DNA is important,

but is there anything else that you can talk to that is improving with time that we're going to be

able to use to solve crimes? Well, you know, a lot of forensics over the years, you know,

there has been somewhat of an evolution,

no matter what type of forensic discipline that you're talking about. Of course, God, it may have

been even over a year ago. You know, we've talked about how some of the forensic sciences

have, you know, sort of taken a backseat. They, in some instances, just been completely discredited

and others. The conclusions that could be drawn from them have been shown relatively weak. And then

...