I feel like there's this way in which the kind of right-wing architecture types that we're discussing,

there's a way in which what we see in the built environment around us,

the types of buildings we build, the design of them, reflect something about the state of our souls.

Like this thing they don't like is also a result of kind of secularization

and the West for getting God. I find myself, like, actually in some agreement about this

criticism. I actually think that contemporary architectural culture is very weak right now. It has

been weak for quite some time, in part because, you know, the financialization

of real estate had architectural ramifications. You know, you look at a skyscraper now that's

built for like Salesforce or whatever. And it's like all steel and glass and it's all reflective

and it looks exactly the same as every other skyscraper because that's just the most

economical way to build.

That's like the kind of modern signifier of like the firm.

You look at that and you compare it to like Louis Sullivan with this like lusciously ornamented

actually like form pushing developments, like these innovations that he made, like pushing architecture forward.

Like that's not really happening right now. Like the architecture rebuild actually does reflect

the society we live in and it's not really a good one. It's not an egalitarian one. It's not

really a soulful one either, I would argue. Kate, one of your essays that I read in preparation for this was January

2025 in the nation, Trump will not make architecture great again. But there's a line in there I wanted

to read just because I thought it captures something important. You write, right-wingers were

able to capitalize kind of on this whole matter, because underlying it was an inconvenient

truth. A lot of new buildings are ugly. And I sort of think like as with, say, make America

healthy again, right? People should be concerned about what is in our food, right? What chemicals we

...