He's naturally autocratic and imperious.

I personally think that there's no benefit for Britain remaining in the ECHR.

No benefit at all?

No.

If it was politics and a career in politics that was your first love, do you regret that to all?

Maybe the world might have been better if, instead of trying to change it, I had concentrated on after university becoming a history teacher.

Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World. I'm Christian Giri Murphy. And this is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their lives

and the events that have helped shape them.

My guest this week is Michael Gove, now Lord Gove, of Torrey in the city of Aberdeen,

a cabinet minister under David Cameron, Theresa May, Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak.

He ran to be leader of the Conservatives twice, famously killed off Boris Johnson's

first tilt at the top job, but backed him on Brexit, spectacularly falling out with David Cameron

in the process in a drama portrayed and sometimes excruciating detail in a book by his ex-wife

Sarah Vine. He has now gone back to his first trade of journalism as editor of

The Spectator magazine. Michael, welcome. Hi, Krishna. How did you want to change the world

when you decided to go into politics? I thought that it was critically important, having been

a commentator, and having spent a fair amount of time telling people,

including some of my friends, what it was that they needed to do, both to improve the Conservative

Party and to improve the country, that when I was challenged, well, if you've got these ideas,

if you care so much, do something about it, not to run away from the sound of gunfire.

And in particular, I was uniquely fortunate in that a number of things came together.

As you mentioned, David Cameron as leader of the Conservative Party,

...