Tribes, Teams, and Cults: How Groups Shape What We Believe
The Michael Shermer Show
Michael Shermer
4.3 • 1K Ratings
🗓️ 11 November 2025
⏱️ 96 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
Why do smart people join dangerous cults, follow bad leaders, or stay silent when they know something's wrong? In this episode, Michael Shermer talks with organizational psychologist Colin Fisher about the science of group dynamics and conformity.
From jazz bands to political mobs, Fisher explains how our evolutionary need to belong both unites and blinds us. He discusses the psychology of revenge, polarization, social media extremism, and why our brains are wired to dehumanize "the other."
What makes a group innovative instead of dogmatic? And how close are we—really—to turning everyday politics into a cult?
Colin M. Fisher is an Associate Professor of Organizations and Innovation at University College London's School of Management. His research focuses on helping groups and teams in situations requiring creativity, improvisation, and complex decision-making. He has written about group dynamics for both popular science and management audiences, and his work has been profiled in prominent media outlets such as BBC, Forbes, NPR, and The Times. His new book is The Collective Edge: Unlocking the Secret Power of Groups.
Transcript
Click on a timestamp to play from that location
| 0:00.0 | You're listening to The Michael Shermer Show. |
| 0:15.1 | Hey, everybody, it's Michael Shermer. |
| 0:16.7 | It's time for another episode of The Michael Shermer Show. |
| 0:19.0 | My guest today is Dr. Colin Fisher. |
| 0:21.7 | He's an associate professor of organizations and innovation at the University |
| 0:26.9 | College London School of Management. |
| 0:29.0 | Once a professional jazz trumpet player, okay, this is going to be a cool conversation. |
| 0:33.6 | Colin now researches the hidden processes of helping groups and teams and situations requiring creativity, improvisation, like jazz players, I guess, and complex decision making. |
| 0:45.8 | He's written about group dynamics for both popular science and management audiences, and his work has been profiled in prominent media outlets such as the BBC, Forbes, NPR, and The Times. |
| 0:57.6 | Originally from Redmond, Washington, he now lives in North London with his wife and two children, and here's the new book, The Collective Edge, Unlocking the Secret Power of Groups. |
| 1:06.8 | Check it out. It's a great read. Lots of fun. Colin, how's it going? Nice to see you. Thanks for coming on. |
| 1:12.0 | Yeah, thanks for having me, Michael. Pleasure to be here. |
| 1:14.9 | So how did you get into, well, psychology in general, social psychology, group dynamics, and all that stuff? What's your story? |
| 1:21.9 | Well, it was very improvisational, as you might imagine, from my bio. So I, you know, like many jazz musicians, moved to New York to try to |
| 1:32.2 | make it as a musician. And when I was there, I had this master's degree program where you could kind of |
| 1:40.1 | make up your own master's degree. And so I studied improvisation across different art forms. |
| 1:45.2 | And I was writing my thesis. I started reading more about the psychology of creativity. |
| 1:51.1 | And I found this woman's work named Teresa Amabelay, and it turned out that she was in this field |
| 1:57.3 | called organizational behavior, and she taught at Harvard Business School. |
| 2:04.1 | And I said, hey, I think I'm interested in that. |
| 2:13.9 | And we have some common interest in figuring out how groups can spontaneously come up with something creative that no one of the people could have possibly thought of on their own. |
| 2:15.7 | They thought that was a good idea. |
... |
Please login to see the full transcript.
Disclaimer: The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from Michael Shermer, and are the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Tapesearch.
Generated transcripts are the property of Michael Shermer and are distributed freely under the Fair Use doctrine. Transcripts generated by Tapesearch are not guaranteed to be accurate.
Copyright © Tapesearch 2026.