addressing sinful pastoral leadership on this edition of Truth and Love.

I'm Dale Johnson and you're listening to Truth and Love,

a podcast of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors,

where we seek to provide biblical

solutions for the problems that people face.

This week on the podcast, I am joined by Josh Zichick.

He's a two-time graduate of the Master's University, Biblical Counseling, Bachelor's Degree, and

master's degree.

He served as youth pastor and a church planter in his local

church, and he's a certified member with ACBC. He's married to his wife, Harmony. They have three

kiddos. One of those kiddos is on the way, and excited about that, Josh. He's also a PhD student

here at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary where I serve, and that's the way that we

have gotten to know one another and become good friends, even through that process. And listen,

I'm excited about some of your doctoral work, and you're talking about this particular issue,

and you're getting further and further in some of your research. And this has been a topic

that you've thought about and taught through on a number of

occasions. But I want us to dig into it a little bit here today. This is certainly an issue that

we see facing the church today is thinking about abusive pastoral leadership or sinful pastoral

leadership. And I love the way, Josh, that you categorize that. We don't want to

get caught in the fray of the multi-uses of abuse. Not that some of those things might not be

appropriate, but you're identifying this biblically saying that sinful pastoral leadership. Now,

let me give a caveat before we start, Josh, that I think is really important when we think

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