This is Spectator Radio and you're listening to The Spectator Podcast.

Hello and welcome to a special Easter episode of The Spectator podcast. I'm Naroprendegas.

It was the week that Notre Dame went up in flames and on this podcast I talked to two Catholics about what it means for them and for France.

Plus, we bring you a special debate on euthanasia and finally we look at why old-fashioned hymns are

needed more than ever. Earlier this week, we witnessed the horrifying spectacle of Notre Dame

going up in flames. Parts of the building were destroyed, as was its iconic spire.

Fortunately, though, the main part of the cathedral and many of its holy artefacts were rescued.

I'm joined by Damian Thompson, the spectator's associate editor and editor-in-chief of the Catholic

Herald, and Matthew Walter, a journalist for the Catholic Herald, to discuss what Notre Dame means to Catholics and to France.

So, Jamie, I suppose those images of Notre Dame going up in flames

will be shocking to lots of people,

but what will Catholics have seen in those images?

Many Catholics did see a dreadful symbolism.

At the moment when the spire collapsed, they saw Catholicism finally falling into the ruins in France. Because France is one of the most irreligious countries in the world.

The Catholic Church is in a desperate state.

It's worse. Rural Catholicism in France is a worse state than the rural church of England.

Frankly, that's saying something.

So many Catholics were in despair, and their right, perhaps, to be very, very discouraged

about Catholicism in France, and to lose this, almost lose such a precious symbol, and frankly to have lost so much from the fabric of the building, is immensely discouraging.

Also happened during Holy Week, which is the week when the church marks the suffering of Christ,

when statues are veiled in purple, and concentrate on obviously on the morning with a

you to come on Good Friday and so lots of people were trying to sort of construct

...