The Science of Courage and Fear | Ranjay Gulati

The Art of Charm

http://www.TheArtOfCharm.com

Business, Health & Fitness, Education

4.7 • 11K Ratings

🗓️ 3 November 2025

⏱️ 46 minutes

🔗️ Recording | iTunes | RSS

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Why do only 9% of people and companies grow stronger during crises? According to Harvard Business School professor and author Ranjay Gulati, the answer isn’t intelligence—it’s courage. In this episode, AJ and Johnny unpack what it means to act in the face of fear, not in the absence of it. Drawing from decades of research and Ranjay’s new book The Soul of Courage, the conversation explores why we’re hardwired to freeze under uncertainty, how the most courageous people “resource” themselves to act, and what separates bold leadership from reckless risk-taking. From stories of NASA pilots and nuclear engineers to everyday professionals stepping up under pressure, this episode is a masterclass in practical courage—how to develop it, share it, and lead with it when everything’s on the line. What to Listen For [00:01:38] Why 91% of companies retreat in recessions—and 9% win [00:03:06] The psychology of “loss avoidance” and our addiction to safety [00:05:00] The difference between risk and uncertainty—and why the brain freezes [00:07:08] The Fear Equation: redefining courage as action in the face of fear [00:08:44] The Stanford snake experiment and building a “can-do” mindset [00:11:00] How domain mastery and belief from others fuel self-efficacy [00:14:47] Bold vs. reckless: Aristotle’s timeless lesson on measured risk [00:18:54] Courage is not a solo act: the importance of your “support squad” [00:24:32] The link between deep purpose and enduring courage [00:26:31] How to “act your way into knowing” when data is unclear [00:30:03] The science of calm—rituals that regulate fear and focus [00:33:05] Rewriting your personal story to unlock courage [00:38:38] How charisma inspires collective courage in others A Word From Our Sponsors Stop being over looked and unlock your X-Factor today at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠unlockyourxfactor.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The very qualities that make you exceptional in your field are working against you socially. Visit the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠artofcharm.com/intel ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for a social intelligence assessment and discover exactly what's holding you back. If you’ve put off organizing your finances, Monarch is for you. Use code CHARM at ⁠monarch.com⁠ in your browser for half off your first year. Indulge in affordable luxury with Quince. Upgrade your wardrobe today at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠quince.com/charm⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for free shipping and hassle-free returns. Grow your way - with Headway! Get started at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠makeheadway.com/CHARM ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠and use my code CHARM for 25% off. Ready to turn your business idea into reality? Sign up for your $1/month trial at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠shopify.com/charm⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Need to hire top talent—fast? Claim your $75 Sponsored Job Credit now at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Indeed.com/charm⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. This year, skip breaking a sweat AND breaking the bank. Get your summer savings and shop premium wireless plans at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠mintmobile.com/charm⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Save more than fifty percent on term life insurance at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠SELECTQUOTE.COM/CHARM⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TODAY to get started Curious about your influence level? Get your Influence Index Score today! Take this 60-second quiz to find out how your influence stacks up against top performers at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠theartofcharm.com/influence⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Episode resources: ⁠⁠RanjayGulati.com⁠ ⁠How to Be Bold⁠ Check in with AJ and Johnny! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AJ on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Johnny on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AJ on Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Johnny on Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Art of Charm on Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Art of Charm on YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Art of Charm on TikTok⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0	Bold behavior doesn't mean reckless behavior. People can be overconfident or their sense of self-efficacy gets ahead of. In some instances, it can turn into arrogance. It's great to have you.
0:25.6	Thank you.
0:26.6	We'd love to learn what piqued your interest in studying courage.
0:29.6	I never thought I was going to study courage per se.
0:34.6	It began serendipitously. At an academic level, I was studying companies in recessions.
0:41.3	And everyone tells you in recessions is the best time to get ahead of competition.
0:46.3	But when you look at companies' behavior in recessions, they all freak out and cut costs.
0:52.3	So I actually got data going back three recessions and I found that
0:56.1	there were only 9% of companies that actually invest for growth in down markets. And they
1:03.1	crush it. It's kind of crazy. No one else does it. Because if you see them after the recession,
1:09.9	they're crushing it. But I never thought about
1:11.6	courage and I don't know who these 9% are, who are these 91% or don't. My first encounter
1:17.8	with courage was actually just looking at bold leaders, individuals who did crazy things,
1:24.5	entrepreneurs. And it was really looking at entrepreneurs who took crazy risk.
1:31.2	My own mother, who was an entrepreneur,
1:33.7	I kind of watched her start a fashion business in 1970,
1:38.6	you know, go to Paris in 1970 from India.
1:42.1	So it was in my mind, and honestly, I don't think I was a very courageous
1:47.4	person myself, though my mother was. So I was kind of intrigued about the topic. This reminds me
1:54.8	of some data that came out. Maybe it was about 15, 10 years ago on football.
2:01.9	And basically, they did the average of kicking the extra point or going for it.
2:11.5	Going for the two.
	...

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