You are listening to the War on the Rocks podcast on strategy, defense and foreign affairs.

My name is Ryan Evans.

I'm the editor-in-chief of Warren the Rocks.

In this special episode I sat down with Ben Buchanan at the Belfer Center, but I did it at the

Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in front of an audience.

Ben and I chatted about his new book with Oxford University Press,

the Cybersecurity Dilemma, hacking, trust, and fear between nations.

Enjoy. at the

willes and the Wilson Center, thanks so much for having me to moderate my friend Ben Buchanan

with publication of his new book, The Cybersecurity Dilemma,

which you should all buy today.

The early Amazon rankings are really important so we

want to support that. This is an unusual think tank event and that it is also

being recorded for production for a War on the Rocks podcast.

Raise your and if you listen to the war on the rocks podcast.

All right, well, those of you don't should start.

As those of you who listen to the war on our podcast

know that we are usually, not always, but usually drinking.

That was actually the plan for this too. I have a bottle

opener to prove it but my beer was confiscated from me. So I apologize for that.

I'd like to start by talking about a game, a board game that actually has some relevance to what we're about to talk about here.

Has anyone heard of a game called diplomacy?

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