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Okay. Welcome to the Dispatch podcast. I'm Steve Hayes. On this week's roundtable, we'll discuss Trump's big, beautiful bill. Is this the end of any pretense of fiscal conservatism in favor of anything goes Trumpism? We'll also discuss Ukraine and two reports this week indicating the Trump administration's

increasing abandonment of the longtime U.S. ally. Lastly, we chat about the next 250, a year-long project

we're launching this week here at the dispatch to celebrate America's 250th anniversary.

I'm joined today by dispatch co-founder Jonah Goldberg, the New York Times, David French,

and Megan McArdle from The Washington Post. I want to start by asking you, Megan, there's a lot

of Republican support for this, all but three Republican senators voted for it.

There seems to be, I don't know if I'd call it enthusiasm, but at least a lot of conservative

and libertarian outside groups are backing this legislation, saying nice things about it.

And every time I take a deep dive or try to look at the details of it,

I'm perplexed as to why conservatives or small government people would be excited about this bill.

Should conservatives and libertarians be excited about this?

No. No, they should not. They should be horrified. It's going to increase the deficit by trillions of dollars over 10 years or increase

the national debt by trillions of dollars over 10 years. Look, fundamentally, as the Washington

Post wrote in a very perspicacious editorial recently, to spend is to tax.

There is no such thing as a borrowed money tax cut.

You can pay now out of revenue or you can pay the bondholders later, but one way or another, you got to pay.

And so Republicans who are out there, they're all excited about

their cutting taxes. They're not cutting taxes. They're cutting taxes on some people now,

and then we're going to have to take that money back later when the bills come due. And that's

...