Welcome to the Eurointelligence podcast. I'm Wolfgang Munchau and with me, I'm Suzanne Monshank and Jack Smith.

Today we will talk about tariffs again. We are seeing how tariffs are starting to affect industries.

We've written about various sectors at here at Eurointelligence, chemicals, pharmaceuticals.

And Jack, you've written about ASML this morning and you've written about raw materials, critical raw materials

coming from China and the squeeze we Europeans are facing now from both sides. How do you see the

effect of tariffs hitting us? The thing with the tariffs is that the first thing that you have

to take into account, of course, is the direct effect of the tariffs, which is to say tariffs that

are directly applied to companies in Europe that are exporting to the United States. But you also have a host of indirect

effects. It's those indirect effects that are also, I think, starting to become a little bit more

clear, which is to say that the tariffs will firstly affect companies that then affect other companies through supply chains.

And secondly, the tariffs will have geopolitical ramifications, which will also be subject to.

If we think about the geopolitical ramifications of these tariffs, one difficulty that we face in Europe

is the worsening U.S.-China relationship.

You can already see kind of what's happening where there's basically a tip-for-tat developed. First of all, it was the US saying, okay, I'll increase my tariffs on

you. China says, okay, I'll increase my tariffs on you and so on and so forth. And eventually we got

to the point where Trump was discussing a 145% tariff on China, which is, it's like a silly

high number. And I'm not the first person

to say this, but above a certain number, it almost just becomes symbolic because above a certain

number, no trade would be taking place anyways. But that was the first part of it. Then over the

weekend, it seemed like the Trump administration was walking things back a little bit because

they announced an exemption on some

consumer electronics. But then both Howard Lucknick and Trump came out and said, well, actually,

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