Taming Wild Hearts: The Siberian Fox Experiment, Evolution, and the Power of Curiosity—A Conversation with Lee Alan Dugatkin
The Not Old - Better Show
Paul Vogelzang
5 • 1.8K Ratings
🗓️ 1 August 2025
⏱️ 33 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
Taming Wild Hearts: The Siberian Fox Experiment, Evolution, and the Power of Curiosity—A Conversation with Lee Alan Dugatkin
The Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates Interview Series
🦊✨ What if you could witness evolution—real, visible change—unfolding not over millennia, but within a single lifetime? On the latest episode of the Not Old Better Show Smithsonian Associates Interview Series, I had the privilege to sit down with evolutionary biologist, author, and Smithsonian Associate Lee Alan Dugatkin, who brings to life one of the most daring experiments in modern science. Lee Alan Dugatkin will be appearing at Smithsonian Associates, coming up. Please check out THIS link for more details!
📚 Lee’s acclaimed book, How to Tame a Fox (and Build a Dog), chronicles the incredible journey of two visionary scientists, Dmitri Belyaev and Ludmila Trut, who set out in the icy wilderness of Siberia to answer an age-old question: how did wild animals become our trusted companions? Against a backdrop of scientific controversy and political peril, they not only tamed foxes—they rewrote what we know about genetics, behavior, and our relationship with animals.
🌏 This story isn’t just about foxes or genetics. It’s about the courage to pursue discovery, the tenacity to overcome obstacles, and the lifelong adventure of following your curiosity. Lee’s insights are a powerful reminder that learning and growth have no age limit. Whether you’re an early-career scientist or someone considering a new passion in your fifties, sixties, or beyond, the spirit of this experiment speaks to all of us.
💡 In our conversation, Lee shares how selection for tameness led to foxes with wagging tails, floppy ears, and even laughter-like vocalizations. He opens up about working with Ludmila Trut—now in her late eighties and still leading this experiment—and about how history, resilience, and wonder can intertwine to create something extraordinary.
🎧 I invite you to listen to this fascinating episode, whether you’re a fellow scientist, an animal lover, or simply someone who believes it’s never too late to change the world with a question. The experiment continues, and so does the adventure.
🔗 Tune in now at notold-better.com. Let curiosity lead the way!
More details here:
https://smithsonianassociates.org/ticketing/programs/taking-wild-out-of-animal
Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Welcome to the Not Old Better Show, Smithsonian Associates interview series on radio and podcast. |
| 0:14.7 | The show covering all things health, wellness, culture, and more. The show for all of us who aren't |
| 0:19.9 | old, were better. Each week we'll interview superstars, experts, and more. The show for all of us who aren't old were better. |
| 0:21.4 | Each week we'll interview superstars, experts, and ordinary people doing extraordinary things, |
| 0:27.5 | all related to this wonderful experience of getting better, not older. |
| 0:31.9 | Now here's your host, the award-winning Paul Vogelzang. |
| 0:37.4 | Well, welcome to the Not old better show, Smithsonian Associates |
| 0:41.3 | Inside Science Interview series. I'm Paul Vogelzeng, and as always I'm delighted you're joining |
| 0:46.4 | us for the 60th anniversary specials. We have got just some fantastic episodes ahead. And today's, |
| 0:52.9 | I promise, won't disappoint. |
| 0:55.2 | It features a truly fascinating story, a story that blends science, adventure, and a touch of heartwarming curiosity. |
| 1:03.9 | Imagine standing in the bitter cold of Siberia, surrounded not by wolves or dogs, but by foxes. |
| 1:11.0 | Foxes that wag their tails, nuzzle your hand, and even seem to laugh right along with |
| 1:16.9 | you. |
| 1:17.0 | These remarkable animals are at the center of a six-decade experiment, six-decade experiment |
| 1:24.0 | that has forever changed how we understand evolution, domestication, and our |
| 1:29.6 | connection to the natural world. |
| 1:34.1 | I'm so pleased that we are joined again by evolutionary biologists, acclaimed author, |
| 1:40.1 | returning guest, audience favorite, goes on and on, and Smithsonian Associate, |
| 1:45.2 | Lee Allen Dugacken. |
| 1:46.7 | Smithsonian Associate Dr. Lee Allen Dugacken's new book, How to Tame a Fox and Build a Dog, |
| 1:53.0 | visionary scientists, and a Siberian tale of Jump-Started Evolution tells the extraordinary |
... |
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