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This is Design Matters with Debbie Melman from Design Observer.com.

For 11 years now, Debbie Milman has been talking with designers and other creative types about what they do, how they got to be who they are, and what they're thinking about.

On this podcast, Debbie Milman talks with graphic design guru Stephen Heller

about how to deliver social critiques with a punch. You have to provoke somehow. You have to

either get them to say, oe, they, or get it away from me. Something to make it noticed.

Here's Debbie Melman. If you're the type who likes to read about the history and practice of graphic design,

you'll inevitably come across a book by Stephen Heller,

and you will think, this man really knows what he's talking about.

Every year, there is a bevy of new books he has authored,

and this year is no exception. With his frequent

collaborator, Gail Anderson, he has recently published the graphic design idea book

and the typography idea book. He joins me now to talk about them both. Steve, it's always good

to have you back on Design Matters. It's always good to be here. This is the 10th to have you back on Design Matters.

It's always good to be here.

This is the 10th time you've been on Design Matters and in preparation for today's show,

I asked you what you wanted to talk about on the air.

And this was several months ago when we first scheduled the date.

And at the time, you thought it would be a really interesting show to go over

...