I'm John Batchel.

This is the new John Batchel show, represented by CBS News Radio, and I'm very pleased to continue my conversation with Josh Rogen of the Washington Post, whose new book is Chaos Under Heaven,

Trump, Xi, and the Battle for the 21st Century.

Josh helps us to identify the whole of society approach that the People's Republic of China

was taking to influence, that's a generous diplomatic word, decisions made by politicians

and voters in the United States

towards the People's Republic, which is declared very clearly to the Obama administration,

to the Trump administration, and will continue to declare into the future, our integrity,

territorial integrity, our sovereignty will not be challenged, will not be challenged.

However, they come here to undermine our understanding of our sovereignty, of our integrity.

All right, fine.

How do they do that?

Josh, first, before we go to Wall Street, what is the Thousand Talent Plan?

What was it?

Well, the Thousand Talents program is just one, the largest

one, but only one of over 200 talent recruitment programs of the Chinese Communist Party

runs to attract foreign scientists, academics, and researchers to contribute to their system.

Now, there's a part of that that's overt and public, but there's a big part of it

that's covert and secret, and that's the part that the U.S. government has started to crack down

on, mostly in 2018 and 2019, and still continues to the stay. And basically what we kept, what the

U.S. government kept finding was that, you know, American researchers had been

paid enormous sums of money to secretly take non-public research from their American institutions

...