I'm John Batchel with colleagues, Alan Howard, Daniel Nussbaum, and Brenda Schaefer of the Naval Postgraduate School.

Their book is operational energy.

It's a textbook, it's a teaching book.

It's a work of historical accuracy about energy defining warfare and transitions from one kind of energy to another, making the

battlefield change with it. Right now, the battlefield is not just what blows up and what makes

craters. It's also cyber. So, Brenda, I want to start with you on my understanding of cyber warfare

and the energy pipelines. The colonial pipeline

was under attack by a group out of Russia that claims they have no geopolitical efforts. I'm going to

believe that right along with I believe with Tinkerbell, that every time you say I don't believe,

it's fairy dies somewhere. So what we've got here is

the dual use of cyber as a way of attacking our energy infrastructure. Did you see people

thinking about this? Brenda, I asked Dan about thinking about the vulnerability of nuclear power

plants, but what about the vulnerability of everything to cyber?

Right. So I think people in general, and especially across the Department of Defense,

there's huge awareness to the dangers and threats from cyber and a lot of attempts to address

these challenges. But there's specifically on the energy sphere where I think maybe there isn't enough

thinking about the cyber threat.

So one, since our U.S. military supply lines run on civilian supply lines, and you could

probably think, well, sure, the base itself is probably pretty cyber secure.

But if you're getting electricity from

a utility outside the base, you know, essentially one of our, one of our commanders who works

on operational energy, says in an interview, Jim Cayley in the book that if you want to stop

...