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Capitalisn't

Revealing the Secret Architects of Capitalism, with Chris Hughes

Capitalisn't

University of Chicago Podcast Network

Stigler Center, Chicago Booth, Socialism, Antitrust, University Of Chicago Podcast Network, Growth, 087667, Policy, Monopoly, Professors, Distortion, Research, Competition, Capitalisnt, Inequality, Promarket, Politics, Policymaking, Special Interest, Economics, Efficiency, Regulations, Chicago, Business, Markets, University Of Chicago, Kate Waldock, Capitalism, Friction, Bethany Mclean, Government, Macroeconomics, News, Education, Waldock, Georgetown, Microeconomics, Luigi Zingales, Zingales, Finance, Ucpn

4.5 • 584 Ratings

🗓️ 10 July 2025

⏱️ 49 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

After the 2008 financial crisis, and especially after the COVID pandemic of 2020, an increasing number of Americans are questioning the wisdom of unregulated markets and envisioning a more active role for the state. Scholars have coined a panoply of neologisms to capture this view of the political economy, including political scientist Steven Vogel’s “marketcraft.” The term indicates that the state not only lays the foundation for markets through the protection of the rule of law and property rights, but it also shapes market economies through policy interventions and regulatory institutions like the Federal Trade Commission. Chris Hughes’ new book, “Marketcrafters: The 100-Year Struggle to Shape the American Economy,” traces how governments led by both major parties have worked with the private sector since the country’s founding to intentionally and strategically shape markets. The narrative reveals how Adam Smith’s proverbial “invisible” hand has always been rather quite visible. Hughes is a co-founder of Facebook who left the company in 2007 to work for former President Barack Obama and is now completing his PhD at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School. Hughes joins Bethany and Luigi to discuss the government’s historical role, both in success and failure, of marketcrafting to rebalance economic power and create fairer and more efficient markets. Their journey takes us from the creation of the Federal Reserve in 1913 in response to a series of banking failures to recent mass investment in the semiconductor industry. Together, they discuss how to stop marketcrafting from becoming a victim of the political process, how it is operationalized differently in times of normalcy versus times of crisis, and how it must navigate the limits of individual and institutional power. Finally, they also discuss whether it is truly possible to craft markets in advance or only to correct market flaws after a crisis, with Hughes’ own prior stomping grounds at Facebook as their case study.

Transcript

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0:00.0

This fear of centralized power, particularly in economic policymaking, means that the markets

0:05.0

often don't work the way that we want them to, and there's no one to hold accountable because

0:08.8

there's no institution responsible for delivering.

0:14.3

I'm Bethany McLean.

0:15.9

Did you ever have a moment of doubt about capitalism and whether greed's a good idea.

0:21.2

And I'm Luigi Zengalis.

0:22.5

We have socialism for the very rich, rugged individualism for the poor.

0:28.0

And this is Capital Isn't, a podcast about what is working in capitalism.

0:32.0

First of all, tell me, is there some society you know that doesn't run on greed?

0:36.5

And most importantly, what isn't?

0:38.5

We ought to do better by the people that get left behind.

0:41.4

I don't think we shouldn't kill the capital system in the process.

0:44.8

From the fall of the Berlin Wall to the great financial crisis, the model of unfettered capitalism

0:50.4

dominated the political scene, both in the United States and in most of the world.

0:54.9

Free markets and limited government were supported not just by the right, but also by most of the

0:59.8

left. After 2008, and especially after 2020, the music has changed. Not only are an increasing

1:06.5

number of people questioning the wisdom of unregulated markets, but they are also envisioning a

1:11.6

more active role for the state. New terms are created to capture this renewed passion,

1:16.9

which is emerging on both sides of the political spectrum. State capacity libertarianism,

1:23.2

new industrial policy, and market craft. The last is a term invented by political scientist Kenneth Vogel to indicate that a

1:31.7

core function of governments, comparable to state craft, is market governance.

1:37.0

The state not only lays the foundation for markets with the rule of law and property rights,

...

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