Maybe let me just let me ask kind of like big picture one or two questions.

What advice do you have when people in our community?

So this room is full of community leaders.

So people watching online from all over the place, but this room here is actually community

leaders. When somebody in our community is in that deconstruction phrase, and it's not

like a neat linear process. It's emotional and it's relational and it's complex.

And contradictory at times, what like just pastoral advice do you have?

Like you clearly have a capacity to hold that with people and not berate them or answer

all their questions or shame them or get scared. You know, often for me, I know it'll trigger

some of my own fear. You know what I mean?

Like I'm just trying to stay saved in the city.

And so I know whenever I pastor from a place of fear, I always sabotage love.

Yes.

So like any just pastoral advice, you're a PhD and a thinker, but you're also a pastor.

Like just any advice.

Well, to be honest, that little comment you made there, we sort of chuckled out it that

when somebody is going through these sorts of emotions and experiences that for you as

a leader, it brings up a lot of insecurities. The truth of the matter is I can identify

a number of times when individuals in our church community would come to me in the throws

of deconstruction. And I could never identify it at the moment.

But really what my brain was doing is if this person spreads around too much, everyone's

going to leave the church and I'm going to be out of a job.

...