This is John Batchel, a conversation with the historian James Holland, his new book, Casino 44,

The Brutal Battle for Rome. Here James describes in the first days the Red Bulls, the 34th Infantry

Division, this is Fifth Army under Mark Clark, across a flooded valley and then up the mastiff

towards Monteasino.

The Germans were very thin at the top,

and James describes how close, how very close this battle came to be won by the Fifth Army

in the first days.

What followed, of course, was months of torment and massacre on all sides on all sides. The battle from Montecisino.

This is December, 1943 to June 1944, Italy, the Italian campaign. Much more of this tonight

and next week. James Holland. Yeah, just north for the town. I mean, it's a horror story. But fortunately for the Red Bulls

at that point, because of the battles that have already taken place, you know, against

British Tencore and the Gariliano, against the Texans, and because of Operation

Schingle, the invasion of Anzio, the line at Comonde Casino

is incredibly thinly held by a very, the 4th Infantry, a German 44th Infantry Division,

which has been absolutely hammered since it first arrived on the front back in November,

1943. So they are able to eventually get across the upper Rapido Valley, which is this waterlog

valley.

They are able to get up into the foothills and then kind of stop pushing up onto the Monte

Casino massive.

And it looks like they've got the whole thing in their hands.

But just at that moment, Monte Cassino itself, the mountain overlooking the Liri Valley and the Rapido Valley and the town itself, is reinforced and it's reinforced just enough.

So although the Texans, to the Texans, it looks like they've already got the breakthrough and they're so close.

...