This is John Batchel, a conversation with my colleague Judy Dempsey of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. She's in Berlin.

Asking hostile Russia and China, is the European Union ready? Is Europe ready? Judy acknowledges not yet, not as much as perhaps Donald Trump is ready for the hostility of our adversaries.

Here's Judy Dempsey on thinking about 2025 and the risk to Europe, the risk to the United States, the risk to the planet, more of this tonight.

It is a perception. There's no doubt about this, but it goes back to my earlier point about

the fragility of the multilateral system and indeed the legitimacy and how it's now been

absolutely challenged by China and Russia. And I don't see China and Russia backtracking in any way on this. They're really going to

test the resolve of the West. They're going to test the transatlantic relationship. And they know

Europe isn't ready. Maybe Trump is ready, much more ready perhaps than the Europeans. But we're

not in for pleasant, easy sailing throughout 2025. There's an awful lot of issues to deal with, not least how Russia's war in Ukraine is going to end and of course the whole Syria migration stability issue.