This is John Batchel, a conversation with colleague Grant Newsham. Colonel Grant Newsham,

United States Marine Corps retired, author of When China Attacks, about war ends. He's thinking of Ukraine war ending.

What will it look like? He gives three examples. The Korean War in the 1950s never finished.

Still underway. The Vietnam War, 1960s, 1970s, it did finish. Vietnam

is now a completely different culture. And the Rhodesian War, the 1960s and 70s, it ended

very badly for the people of Rhodesia. What to learn from these?

He points to the Vietnam example here, the war end in 1975, and then afterwards chaos and darkness.

Today, well, there's memory of it.

Here's Grant on war ends.

Very, very hard war ends.

Well, some units did fight, of course.

But the lesson here is that there's kind of a chicken and the egg aspect to this.

We say, well, they should have fought harder, then we would have helped them.

They say, well, you should have helped us, and then we would have fought harder.

And in the case of Vietnam, it was U.S. Congress cutting off basically all aid that really scared the daylights out of the South Vietnamese and caused them to collapse. That seems to have been the triggering effect.