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That's better help help dot com. I'm John Natscher visiting with my colleague Judy Dempsey of the Carnegie Endowment

for an international peace.

She's in Berlin.

And recently Mr. Zelensky was in Berlin to present his victory plan to principles of NATO.

That would be Circust Armour, the Prime Minister of Great Britain, Emmanuel Macron, the President of France,

Olaf Schulz, the Chancellor of the Germans, and

Mr Biden, the President of the United States, along with Mark Grutie, the new General Secretary of

NATO.

I mentioned principles here because the victory plan was about NATO, fast-tracking Ukraine for

NATO. That was not embraced. There was talk about money. I want to go to something else that

I've seen recently in the news

out of Europe, which is a model for Ukraine in the future, assuming as many do that

Russia cannot be dislodged from its hold on the Dunbar, eastern Ukraine, and

Crimea, cannot be dislodged without the kind of violence that would involve NATO directly

in the conflict.

...