This is a series of CBSi in the world. I'm John Bachelor with Judy Dempsey of the

Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Strategic Europe.

She is the editor-in-chief.

And it's the 75th anniversary of NATO.

And never have the doubts been stronger than right now.

Not even during Afghanistan was there doubt that NATO would no longer exist if?

And your colleague John Danny from the U.S. Army War College has written an essay saying there are major challenges, that's a polite way of saying

this could be the end of NATO. It turns on the politics of the moment. I understand the U.S. right now is incoherent. I won't try to

generalize what the politics are here other than the fact there's hesitation

in several places about Gaza, about Europe.

Just hesitation on war, it depends.

The parties are inconsistent.

So I would go to the European side duty.

Is NATO considered primary for the European Union the

NATO itself they're not the same body but they there's a lot of overlap and

the understanding is a defense of Europe is a defense of

Europe. Does NATO come to be regarded as successful and worthy and sustainable now in Europe.

The, for the Central Europeans and the Baltic states,

and I mentioned this division again between Western Europeans and East Europeans.

But then the good news is that NATO has rediscovered collective defense based on the

Terrence and this was thrown to the wind after the collapse of the Berlin Wall,

or there'll be the big peace dividend, didn't spend on defense, didn't spend on

...