Welcome to Nobody Told Me. I'm Jan Black. And I'm Laura Owens. Ever since we saw the TV show Horders, we wanted to talk with our guest on this episode,

Extreme Cleaning Specialist Matt Paxton. Matt has spent decades helping people sort through messes in attics, basements, garages, and elsewhere. And for the past couple of years, he's been the host of the PBS

television show Legacy List with Matt Paxton, which highlights families that are downsizing or settling in a state

of a loved one. Matt is also the author of the soon-to-be-published book, Keep the Memories, Lose the

stuff. Declutter, downsize, and move forward with your life. Matt, we thank you so much for joining

us. Thanks for having me.

Tell us how you got into the business of deep pluttering.

It's a really interesting story.

People always like, why would you go on hoarders?

Well, I always joke.

I failed at everything else.

But the truth is I actually, when I was 24, my dad and my stepdad and both my grandpas all passed away. And so I had to clean out all their houses. I was a very immature young, 24. And all the men that raised me passed away that year. And just by happenstance, it just happened to work out that. It was really about 18 months. But I had to go through their houses. And I did. And I started cleaning my dad's house, and it really sucked. Like, it was really, it was awful. It was, it was depressing, it was sad. I was grieving. And there were all these things I didn't know what to do with, like, you know, old paint cans and, you know, fertilizers and not, you know, all crazy stuff, guns, like everything you can imagine. And I just remember thinking this sucks. And my grandpa had always said, if something sucks as a job, if something sucks to do, do it as a job, and people will pay you to do it. And so I was like, I guess I'll just keep doing this. And here we are, almost 21 years later, I'm still cleaning out people's houses. And it's awesome. I mean, I didn't plan on being on TV. I didn't plan on writing books.

I was cleaning houses for $15 an hour. And I loved it because I was like, you know, I helped someone. And then they would give me a big hug and then they would give me a check. And I was like, this is a cool, this is a cool gig, you know. And so it just kind of like, you know, it took, I don't know, five years before I knew I was really going to just keep doing it.

I thought it was going to to just keep doing it.

I thought it was going to be like a side hustle until I found something else.

And then I just kept doing it.

Up until I saw hoarders, I thought that people who hoarded were just people who had a lot of things and didn't have the time to clean.

But it's actually something that really goes

back to trauma and somebody's childhood, something that just really requires treatment,

clinical treatment. Can you explain the difference to us? Yeah, so hoarding versus collecting.

Collecting is great. It's fun. It brings you joy, something you do with your family, and you

share these, these items. And people, you know, share in that joy. Horting is really, it is a mental disorder and it's when that stuff actually holds your life back from being successful. And so it's always caused by trauma. It's always caused by some type of, you know, it's death, divorce, loss of a job. It's usually abuse, I'll be

...