Welcome to Nobody Told Me. I'm Laura Owens and I'm Jan Black.

Our guest on this episode, psychiatrist Mark Goulston, is an expert on how to get through to people

by listening. He's the author of several bestselling books, including the latest, Talking to Crazy,

How to Deal with the Irrational and Impossible People in your life. We're excited to talk to Mark,

since most of us occasionally, or maybe even frequently, have to deal with irrational and impossible people. Mark,

thanks so much for joining us. We mentioned that you're an expert on listening and I'm wondering

why is listening such a tough skill to acquire for some people. Well, I think part of it is because

people feel better and they feel relief when they're talking.

And the more overwhelmed you are, the more relief you need.

And I remember an anecdote where I was out on a hike with a couple friends.

And when we came back, I said, why did it seem like it took no time hiking back from

where we got to?

And they said, well, that's because you didn't shut up on the way home.

And actually what I've learned is, you know, when we speak, often what happens is,

and I learned it from Marty Nemco, who was on your show also.

One of my favorite people, a career coach up in San Francisco.

Yeah.

He introduced me to something called the traffic light rule because when my book

Just Listening came out, he said, you know, Mark, for a guy who wrote a book I'm listening,

you stink.

And he gave me the traffic light rule.

And the traffic light rule, he says, unless you're being interviewed, you're giving a presentation,

...