This is John Batchel, a conversation with my colleague, Katrina Vandenhovel, the editorial director and publisher of the nation magazine, as well as the Washington Post columnist, about the Ukraine war and the exhaustion of the elite in Russia and the people in Russia and the elite in Washington and the people in America, the exhaustion, end it now.

And what is it wrought?

Katrina here lists the center parties have been driven out.

The new right, the populists, the far right, they call them in Europe, are ascendant

throughout the continent, throughout the EU and NATO.

Katrina Venn and Hovel on the center being driven out by the exhaustion of a Ukraine war.

More of this tonight.

With the exception of Italy, the Italian populist leader,

but that is at the heart of the right-wing populist agenda.

You're right, John.

Whether it's in Germany with the AFD or the new Sarah Vagnitin Party.

And I think what's happened is the center, for different reasons, both technocracy and austerity, has been driven out.

But the more this war goes on, the sharper these issues and divisions will emerge as.