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The Lawfare Podcast

Lawfare Archive: Why Pakistan is Deporting Afghan Refugees with Madiha Afzal

The Lawfare Podcast

The Lawfare Institute

History, Military, International Relations, Government, Constitutional Law, News, International Law, Current Events, Politics, Rule Of Law, Law, Foreign Policy, Diplomacy, National Security, Intelligence, Terrorism

4.76.4K Ratings

🗓️ 21 December 2025

⏱️ 43 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

From November 20, 2023: Over the past few weeks, the country of Pakistan has pursued an aggressive wave of deportations targeting thousands of Afghan refugees, some of whom have been in Pakistan for generations. Many fear that this move will add to the already precarious and humanitarian situation facing Afghanistan. But the Taliban regime, for one, has reacted in a way few expected.

To talk through these refugee removals and their ramifications, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Madiha Afzal, a Fellow in the Foreign Policy program at the Brookings Institution. They talked about the origins of the Afghan refugee population in Pakistan, how this latest action intersects with concerns over terrorism, and where the crisis may be headed next.

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Transcript

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0:00.0

I'm Isabella Royo, Intern at Lawfare, with an episode from the Lawfare Archive

0:13.8

for December 21, 2025. In recent months, the government of Pakistan has responded to violent

0:19.9

tensions with the Taliban-controlled government of Afghanistan

0:22.2

by escalating its campaign of mass deporting millions of Afghan refugees, a category that includes many adults of Afghan descent born and raised in Pakistan.

0:31.7

As of December 2, this year, roughly 1 million of the 3 million Afghans in Pakistan have been repatriated to Afghanistan,

0:38.6

subjecting them to the humanitarian crisis unfolding under Taliban rule. These more recent efforts

0:43.5

are part of a broader campaign against Afghans and Pakistan that began in 2003. For today's

0:49.0

archive, I chose an episode from November 20, 20, 2003, in which Medeha Afzal and Scott Anderson discussed the origins

0:55.5

of the Afghan refugee population in Pakistan, the reasons for Pakistan's wave of deportations

1:00.0

of Afghan refugees, how this latest action intersects with concerns over terrorism, the

1:05.1

Taliban's reaction, and more. Currently, Pakistan has a caretaker government in charge and run up to elections in a few months.

1:22.9

And this caretaker government is really, you know, sort of a military-backed caretaker government.

1:29.9

So this action, this deportation drive, should really be understood as something that the military is pushing.

1:38.4

Not to say that, you know, an elected government would not have necessarily done this because it would

1:46.4

have limited, I think, political repercussions in Pakistan. Given that, you know, Afghans are not

1:54.0

Pakistani citizens. They can, these refugees wouldn't be able to have an impact on the election,

1:59.5

right? And Pakistanis may not necessarily feel

2:03.0

very strongly about this because some of them will buy into the government's narratives of

2:08.9

refugees being a burden or being linked to terrorism. I'm Scott R. Anderson, and this is the

2:15.5

Lawfare podcast for November 20, 23.

2:18.8

Over the past few weeks, the country of Pakistan has pursued an aggressive wave of deportations

2:23.8

targeting thousands of Afghan refugees, some of whom have been in Pakistan for generations.

...

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