Lawfare Archive: Memorializing Babyn Yar after the Russian Invasion of Ukraine
The Lawfare Podcast
The Lawfare Institute
4.7 • 6.4K Ratings
🗓️ 20 December 2025
⏱️ 45 minutes
🧾️ Download transcript
Summary
From July 1, 2022: When a Russian missile recently struck a TV tower in Kyiv, near Babyn Yar, the site of Nazi mass murders during the Holocaust, some saw the attack as a potent symbol of the tragic occurrence of violence in Ukraine. To talk through the historical significance of the attack, Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Maksym Rokmaniko, an architect, designer, entrepreneur, and director at the Center for Spatial Technologies in Kyiv, and Linda Kinstler, a PhD candidate in the rhetoric department at UC Berkeley.
In her recent New York Times essay, the Bloody Echoes of Babyn Yar, Linda wrote, "the current war in Ukraine is so oversaturated with historical meaning, it is unfolding on soil that has absorbed wave after wave of the dead, where soldiers do not always have to dig trenches in the forest because the old ones remain."
Linda's writing has appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Atlantic and Jewish Currents, where she recently reported on the Babyn Yar Holocaust Memorial center. Linda is also the author of Come to This Court and Cry: How the Holocaust Ends, which is out in the U.S. on August 23rd, from Public Affairs.
Tyler, Linda and Maksym discuss the history of Babyn Yar as a sight and symbol, the role of open source investigative techniques and forensic modeling in the documentation of war crimes, the battle over historical narratives, memorialization and memory, as well as the limits of the law in achieving justice for victims of negation and genocide.
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Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | I'm Isabella Royal, Internet Lawfare, with an episode from the Lawfare |
| 0:13.0 | for December 20, 2025. |
| 0:16.0 | On December 14, two gunmen opened fire on a Hanukkah celebration in Australia's |
| 0:20.0 | Bondi beach, killing 15 people, including an 87-year-old Holocaust survivor from Ukraine. |
| 0:25.6 | The day before, the Russian military conducted what Ukrainian Prime Minister, Yulia S. Fidelenko, characterized as one of the largest assaults on Odessa in the Russia-Ukraine War. |
| 0:34.6 | For today's archive, I chose an episode from July 1st, 2022, in which Tyler |
| 0:39.3 | McBrion, Maxim Rokmaniko, and Linda Kinsler discuss a Russian missile striking a TV |
| 0:44.7 | tower in Kiev near Babinjar, the site of Nazi mass murders during the Holocaust. The three |
| 0:50.7 | discussed the history of Babiniar as a site and symbol, the role of open source investigative techniques and forensic modeling in the documentation of war crimes, the battle over historical narratives, memorialization, and memory, and the limits of the law in achieving justice for victims of negation and genocide. |
| 1:17.7 | I'm Tyler McBrion, managing editor of Lawfare, and this is the Lawfare podcast, July 1st, 2022. When a Russian missile recently struck a TV tower in Kiev near |
| 1:24.0 | Babinyar, the site of Nazi mass murders during the Holocaust. |
| 1:27.7 | Some saw the attack as a potent symbol of the tragic occurrence of violence in Ukraine. |
| 1:32.1 | In her recent New York Times essay, The Bloody Echoes of Babigniard, Linda Kinsler wrote, |
| 1:36.8 | The current war in Ukraine is so oversaturated with historical meaning. |
| 1:40.2 | It is unfolding on soil that has absorbed wave after wave of the dead, where soldiers do not always |
| 1:44.9 | have to dig trenches in the forest because the old ones remain. |
| 1:48.4 | To talk through the historical significance of the attack, I sat down with Linda, a PhD candidate |
| 1:53.6 | in the rhetoric department on UC Berkeley. |
| 1:56.1 | Linda is also the author of Come to this Court and Cry, How the Holocaust Ends, which is out |
| 2:00.6 | in the US on August 23rd |
| 2:02.4 | from Public Affairs. I was also joined by Maxim Rok Monaco, an architect, designer, entrepreneur, |
| 2:09.5 | and director at the Center for Spatial Technologies in Kiev Ukraine. We discussed the history |
... |
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