But it's really that the goals, that parliamentarians and like the average vote that is a degree on the goal, where we should be heading with society.

And now the good fight with Yasha Monk.

To what extent do politicians and other political leads actually represent the views of ordinary citizens?

On important cultural issues, like immigration, are they just not listening to what people want?

And is that perhaps one of the reasons why populism has been rising so much? Is the rise

of populism in part a result of voters saying, we've been telling you what we want again and again,

all of us old mainstream parties and listening to us, well, I guess we're going to vote for these

new populist forces in order to finally get our voices heard.

My guest today has made this argument in a influential paper he published last year.

Lawrence Gunter is a research fellow at the Toulouse School of Economics and the Institute for

Advanced Study in Toulouse.

And he has a really interesting set of writings about the cultural representation gap, showing, for

example, that in 2013, the average member of a most conservative political party represented

in the German Bundestag had more progressive views about immigration

than the average voter. And this he thinks helps to explain a lot of political developments of the

last 10 years. In the last part of this conversation, Lawrence asked me some questions about

the extent to which journalists are actually willing to report on uncomfortable issues

and reflect the views of ordinary citizens.

And I ask him about whether use about immigration might not be a little bit more complicated than he suggests,

about whether the better representation of views isn't that voters want two things at the same time,

which is less immigration in most countries where they are polled,

but also no cruelty perpetrated by the state in trying to limit immigration.

...