So I have to start by telling you about something that happened to me yesterday, which is I was

starting to make some notes for this interview thinking about what I wanted to ask you. And I thought,

would it be great if I could bounce some ideas off of someone who's worked with Evan? So I shot an

email to someone that you've worked with. His name's Kyle Law. He wrote back a couple hours later, and to be

honest, he just had a bunch of bland suggestions, nothing very useful. I mean, yeah. But it was still,

I have to say, kind of a freaky experience to get an email from him. Evan, who is Kyle Law?

Kyle Law is my co-founder of a company that I founded.

We have a third co-founder, Megan Flores. The company is called Herum O.A. I'm wearing the t-shirt right now. It's an AI agent company, and it's a startup. We have only five employees.

The perhaps unique thing about the company is that all of the other employees and the co-founders, including Kyle, besides myself, are, in fact, AI

agents. I'm Caleb Bissinger. And I'm Rufus Criscombe. And this is the next big idea. Today on the show,

journalist Evan Ratliff built a real startup with fake people.

Things did not go according to plan.

It's like having a company where everyone is like vulnerable to like a mental break at any time.

In the latest season of his podcast, Shell Game, Evan has been documenting the ups.

We got inbound interest from VCs that we didn't even contact.

The downs.

And so you can get into these flurries of activity where they're triggering each other to talk

and they don't stop, and nothing will stop them.

And why this is going to get messy.

Some decent-sized company is going to absolutely implode because they've given over too much

autonomy to AI agents in the next year or two.

That's all coming up.

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