Hey, everybody, welcome.

So throughout the history of the United States, moral and religious values have been extremely important traditionally. The entire conversation before the Civil War about slavery was very, very biblically based. You can see this in Lincoln's second inaugural address and so forth. Obviously, Dr. King during the Civil Rights Movement, he was a Baptist preacher. He spoke in religious and moral terms. Traditionally, the political right has been more interested in personal moral values and the political left more interested in public moral values. When we look at what's happening in America today, when we look at this unbelievable demolition of our democratic freedoms, we're all asking ourselves, well, what are the forces behind all this? And many of us are absolutely appalled to see how much of that is coming from a force that is usually called Christian nationalism. And people are realizing that what this political force of Christian nationalism is, is something that has nothing to do necessarily with the teachings of Christ. And for that reason, many, many people, including my guest today, he said, we got to talk about this. We're not going to be quiet about this. We're not going to keep our heads down because the antidote to this Christian nationalism that seems to have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus, the antidote to that is people having a very vibrant and robust conversation about what the teachings of Jesus actually are in relation to public policy. We see this politically among such people as the Texas Legislator, James Calarico, and my guest today is someone who outside the electoral political sphere, but very much in the sphere of those who are talking about political issues is the wonderful, the marvelous and my friend, John Fugel saying. So John, welcome. Thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you so much, Marianne. It's so nice to see you and to be with your incredible audience. Thank you for letting me drag your show down to my level once again. You are very funny, so everybody sort of expect to be laughing. Oh, yes, I'm sorry, normally these books are written by theologians and clergy and people with credentials.

Not a foul mouth of vulgarian comedian with a serious XM show. But I can't imagine that any of you actually don't know that side of John, but just in case you don't, you don't know his extraordinary career. Let me tell you a few things. He is a drama league nominated actor, comedian and broadcaster who hosts the acclaimed.

Tell me everything series on Sirius XM Progress number 127. He has played for the troops overseas. Now this is an interesting thing, which I'm sure he'll tell us a little bit about, but I'm always fascinated. He is the child of an ex-nun and an ex-Franciscan brother. Now we're here today to talk about his latest book. It's called The Separation of Church and Hate, a sane person's guide to taking back the Bible from fundamentalists fascists and flock fleecing frauds. Welcome. Amen. Thank you, Marianne. Um, John, you surrounded all with jokes and you surrounded all with this kind of clever way you have of talking, but you're very, very serious. And that's that's clear also in this book. That's what makes you so unique. Thank you. And we're living at a time, which I know you you agree with me about this. This is in terms of what's actually happening. This is no joke at all. Correct. And so the fact that you give us an opportunity to laugh while we're talking is a good thing. But the deeper conversation is something very, very important for our country. Indeed. So you have, this is not a new conversation for you, of course. But I always want, for those who haven't heard it, would you go a little bit, I just find it fascinating about your mother and your father, and how in your upbringing, the political and the spiritual and the religious all came together. So tell us a little bit about that. Thank you, of course. I'm here because two people once broke a promise to God. My mother was a nun. She entered the convent right out of high school. She grew up in the segregated south and for her that was a way out of where she was. And they put her through nursing school and they sent her off to work with lepers in the jungles of Malawi Africa. So she went from segregated Virginia to Malawi. but before they sent her off to Africa, she was briefly stationed at Holy Family Hospital in Brooklyn, New York. My father grew up in Brooklyn during the Depression and he became a Franciscan brother. He wore the brown robes and the rope belt and looked like a Jedi knight and taught history to Catholic boys at St. Francis Prep. My father, the brother, met my mother, the sister when he had TB and entered the hospital and fell madly in love with this nun in a habit with the southern accent that he knew he wasn't allowed to be in love with. So they became very close friends. He became her pen pal and wrote her long letters every week about everything happening back in the states with civil rights and Eventually after 10 years he it's a long story, but eventually after 10 years He convinced her to quit the convent and go on a date and they they tried to raise us to be progressive free thinking sexually repressed Catholics Which is why I do comedy because I can't afford the therapy I need. And like many, I grew up believing that Christianity was a religion about service, a religion about service, servant leadership, that it was about empathy and love and forgiveness, loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, doing the things Jesus commands, which are welcoming the stranger and caring for the poor and caring for the sick, individuals and nations on a policy level as in Matthew 25. I grew up thinking that that's what Christianity is. And like so many, who grew up in the 80s or 90s, I'd watch the TV news and I'd see these Christian leaders. On cable news every night, men like Jerry Falwell and Jimmy Swagger and Pat Robertson, and they were introduced as Christian leaders, but they didn't talk about anything that Jesus in the Bible I knew, talked about. They were talking about welfare queens and the danger of AIDS patients and how poor people are lazy. These were people who got more angry about protests against racism than actual racism itself. And so many have grown up to know that this religion of love has been hijacked by a mean little click that's tax-free and that doesn't actually follow the things that Nazarene and the Bible talks about. So for years I've done material about it, I've done stand-up, I've talked about it on the radio, on TV, and very I'm everywhere I've gone, including the Sister Giant event in 2017, which was wonderful. But everywhere I've gone, I've met so many folks who've had a similar story. And they grew up to think, what is this religion? Why is this priest screaming at me about transgender people? What about welcome the stranger? Why are they persecuting immigrants? This meanness and Christianity that has has well documented by so many. That has always existed here in a certain strain. And I came to feel that, you know, they say the largest growing religious group in this country are Mormons. Some say it's Islam. Some say it's none of the above's. But I've come to believe it's people who were raised religious and now consider themselves spiritual because they're so turned off to all the hypocrisy and cruelty. So I wrote this book as a guide for any one of any faith, atheist, agnostic, any religion, even conservative Christian friends, who's going to have to deal with a hate or Christian, a fundamentalist or a right-wing Christian nationalist, and it's about all the topics that divide us and how

they're against the teachings of Jesus on pretty much everyone. And even if you're agnostic, if you're having a big political debate about important social issues with a Christian nationalist, chances are Jesus probably has your back. And I don't have any illusions about converting these people, but I wanted to let everyone else know you're not crazy. They don't fight for the the things Jesus talked about. Here's the history of the religion.

Here's what it started out as.

Here's what it turned into.

Here's the history of the religion. Here's what it started out as here's what it turned into Here's why it's still fighting worth fighting for and here's what Jesus actually said on every issue I Think it's important that we honor some of the nuances here There are many people who are sincere quote-unquote conservative Christians who do not fall into the camp. Correct. That's why I made a whole look about hate. Not about the service. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so we want to be really clear about that. And also with what you're saying, the specific politicalization of this crowd you're talking about. It was and it did start with people like Jerry Falwell, remember the whole thing with the moral majority and all of that. So they began to be politicized several decades ago. Now, what we're dealing with today, of course, is not just people that, as you just said, are not even talking about Jesus. Unfortunately, they are talking about the US government in ways that are not only religiously contrary to the teachings of Jesus, but are even contrary to the words of the US Constitution and the Founders. And of course, the one that comes most to my mind right now and that is Mike Johnson. I find him very scary because like where did he come from?

And I think I know where he came from that that was a plant of sorts. He is definitely an example of the Christian nationalist who is specifically in power within our political system to not just it's not once again it's not just a perversion of the teachings of Christ. It's the perversion of the U.S. Constitution. When did you begin to see that this, specifically, the Christian national is not just a conservative Christian, conservative Christians, or, you know, I believe in... I love many conservative Christians. Absolutely. And I believe many conservative Christians are very sincere about the teachings of Christ. And many conservative Christians are also very respectful of the U.S. Constitution and so forth. So I think that's really important. But this unique and uniquely peculiar political force of Christian nationalism that is so behind Heritage Project 2025 that is so behind the idea of suppression of women, that

is so behind some of the stuff that is truly scary right now.

When did you begin to see this, John?

And what do you see as it's, how did this happen?

Because this was not just a gerry fall well and those guys, or was it a natural progression

from them?

How do you see this?

There's two ways to look at it.

There's the long view and there's the more recent decades, the long view, that this all began when they killed off the apostles and Paul got to write the Bible and Paul's version stuck and Rome took over and began persecuting heretics and that began the process of Christians going from a persecuted minority to then being a persecuting empire. And that led to the doctrine of... I mean, Spanish Inition Crusades doctrine of discovery American slavery segregation brought us to the Calvinists and the Calvinists and throughout all these and throughout all these spaces in history Marianne it was Christians fighting for the most cruel inhumane policies and every time Christ followers oppose them Christians fought to slaughter Muslims and Jews in the crusades Christ followers like St. Francis quit the war and preached peace. It was Christians like Columbus who slaughtered the indigenous, and it was Christ followers like the priest on his boat, Bartolomeo de las Casas, who protested to the queen. All throughout history, every time you see authoritarian Christianity hurting and abusing people. There have always been sincere people of faith and their allies, who have pushed back through civil rights. We've seen in our lifetime how many folks have talked their grandparents and parents out of so much homophobia in the last 30 years. And I go ahead, please. First of all, there's a lot of historical, it's got to be about right now. We're just learning exactly who Columbus was. I mean, Columbus also saved a lot of people from Isabella

when he took them out of the inquisition. When he rescued them from the inquisition, went to places like the Caribbean, many of them were Jews for instance. So I think we're just beginning to learn some of the stuff about him specifically. But I think you're making a distinction. But we already know a lot of things about what he did in the... that we're not with the American Indians.

In the shadow of the cross, all of it.

So this is very important to distinction you're making. You're making a distinction between the Christian religion and what you call the followers of Christ, which I as a student of a course in miracles particularly can fully appreciate. Yes. Because the course is a very Christ center teaching but it is not a religion. Amen. And it is people from all religions and no religions are students of the course in miracles. So I totally understand how someone can take the teachings of Christ as really core to your worldview and to your sense of purpose on the earth and not consider yourself a Christian. And what you're talking about there is so important in terms of the distinction. Now I grew up at a time, of course, when I was a teenager and even at the end of high school in the protests against the Vietnam War and so forth, the Catholic Barragan brothers were a major moral voice, a full William Sloan coffin. So when I was growing up, religious voices, genuine religious voices, and that included Jews and it included Catholics and they included Protestants, we're very much a part of what we think of today as progressive politics and what we think of today as truly taking a stand within the public space for policies that were that adhered to what Lincoln called the better angels of our nature. So you've given us the long view. Now give us the short view. So the long view. The long view. You're way all the way back. The long view I could do all day. The shorter view, when Roe v Wade was established by the Supreme Court, the most controversial thing about it was how not controversial it was. It was viewed as a Catholic thing. The Southern Baptist Convention continued to support a woman's right to reproductive freedom. A year after Roe was signed. It was not until five years after Roe that Jerry Falwell ever mentioned abortion in a sermon for the first time. Ronald Reagan, when he ran for president the first time, he was not making criminalizing abortion the main focus of his campaign. Reagan had signed the most liberal abortion law in California's history as governor in 66. In 80, he began with the anti-abortion movement, but the main issue that the Christian right was focusing on in the 70s after they had failed on segregation, voting rights, Nixon was gone, was tax exempt status for universities and schools that still practiced racial segregation. Jerry Falwell had opened a white-only school himself, and if you look at Reagan's speeches in the 80s, he talks about Jimmy Carter's IRS going after our schools a lot more than he talks about abortion rights. But in the early 1980s, abortion became the central of the Christian right, the moral majority, the Republican Party, criminalizing abortion, which the Bible never calls for. Jesus is against the death penalty, but the Bible never actually bans it. And that wound up being the great achievement of the Christian right. We've now had two generations of American Christians who have been raised and groomed to vote against everything Christ talked about, all in favor of criminalizing abortion which Christ never talked about, and it worked. And to this point, I often when I'm hosting my series XM show, I ask our right-wing callers to please give me one actual teaching of Jesus that the Republican Party has fought for in the

last 40 years.

Something he actually said. And it's a great way to find out how many of our right-wing friends don't actually know the Bible. And the truth is, a lot of them don't know this book they wave around like a prop, and they're counting on you not knowing this book very well, either. I don't think we have to hate them. should never hate them, even the cruelest of fundamentalists, but it's time to take the

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