Race the rudder. Raise the sails. Raise the sales. Captain, an unidentified ship approaching. Over.

Roger that. Wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution?

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I do have to say, if we can't agree that there are gigantic biological imperatives at play

for what is driving, say, crime differences, I don't know that we're going to ever get to a point of

agreement. So many of the ways that men seem really rigidly attached to functionally self-harm,

the way men, even the more evolved progressive men, often still have a lot of difficulty

expressing emotions in ways that are not self-destructive, that like I just, I don't know

how to call it anything other than a prison.

Hi everybody. I'm John Don Van, your moderator and chief at open to debate. This episode was

guest-moderated by my friend and colleague Naima Reza. Naima brings us a funny and fascinating and

sometimes philosophical conversation, which took place live at the comedy cellar in New York City.

Let's bring on Ema to introduce the topic. It's a good one. Do we have any men in the room, by the way? Are there any men here? Oh, my God. You guys have busted out of your prison if you are, in fact, in one. That's amazing. Well, listen, tonight is about men. I think many of you might think every night is about men, and in some ways it is.

But it's really broader than that. It's about whether we as a society might be confining

men, might be incarcerating them even. On TikTok, which is where I think all great wisdom

is dispensed, Andrew Tate provides a script for how to be a real man.

You know, if you scroll through Instagram, you'll see tradwives kind of hunting for a protective,

providing man while they're milking their cows or homesteading or whatever.

And Tucker Carlson is warning of a men, I want to get this right, menpocalypse,

menpocalypse.

And what he calls, quote, the total collapse of testosterone in men. Now, interestingly, our fact checker right before this told me that testosterone

...