From the New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is the Daily.

On Monday, church bells rang out across the world, from Mexico City to Paris, to Kurdistan, to mark the death of Pope Francis at the age of 88.

Today, I speak with my colleague, Rome bureau chief Jason Horowitz,

about the Pope's push to change the church,

his bitter clashes with traditionalists and what his

papacy ultimately means to the world's 1.4 billion Catholics.

It's Tuesday, April 22nd. Jason, good evening.

We know it's late there and that it's been a long day for you.

So thank you.

Happy to be here.

I know from the messages we've been exchanging today in preparation for this conversation

that you've spent some time in St. Peter's Square where

mourners are now gathered. Can you just describe that scene to us?

Sure. Well, earlier in the day, a strange sort of scene because it was mostly tourists, and you had a

feeling that a lot of people didn't even know what had happened. But as the day went on and pilgrims and people who were

there to mourn, Francis started arriving. And you could really sense a sort of somber feeling take over.

And by the end of the evening, there were tens of thousands of people there paying tribute to a pope who had led the church

for a dozen years, but more important than that, who had pointed the church in a new direction,

that a lot of them really hoped the church would continue following.

And some were there also, maybe hoping it took a turn.

In a different direction. In a new direction, or an old direction. And some were there also, maybe hoping it took a turn. Hmm.

In a different direction.

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