Holy Smoke: what does it mean 'to forgive'?
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The Spectator
4.4 • 785 Ratings
🗓️ 14 October 2025
⏱️ 35 minutes
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Summary
The announcement by Erika Kirk – the widow of assassinated political activist Charlie Kirk – that she forgave her husband's killer, has led many to question the nature of Christian forgiveness. Granting forgiveness can seem hard for the smallest of crimes, let alone the murder of a close family member, so how can other people follow Erika's example? One person who sadly knows better than most is Professor Everett Worthington. Prof. Worthington is Professor Emeritus at Virginia Commonwealth University and a clinical psychologist who has studied forgiveness throughout his career. However, it isn't just through academia that he understands forgiveness; when his mother was murdered, he also made the decision to forgive his mother's killer.
Prof. Worthington joins Damian Thompson on this episode of Holy Smoke to discuss the 'injustice gap' between forgiveness and remorse, the theoretical distinction he makes between behaviourial intentions and emotional forgiveness, and the events of his mother's murder – and how he came to forgive such an horrific crime.
Produced by Patrick Gibbons.
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Transcript
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| 0:00.0 | Hello everyone, it's Jamie Lang here from Great Company podcast, and I want to let you know that my podcast is currently being sponsored by Premier Inn. Now, this episode is sponsored by Premier in, the UK's largest hotel chain with over 800 hotels across the country. So wherever work takes you, there's a Premier Inn nearby. Now, every room has a super comfy bed. I've stayed in there incredible and blackout curtains, |
| 0:21.3 | so you'll wake up refreshed and ready for the day ahead. |
| 0:23.8 | And don't forget the unlimited breakfast to fuel your mornings. |
| 0:26.7 | So, for your next work trip, get better sleep for your money at Premier Inn. |
| 0:30.5 | Book now at premier in.com. Welcome to Holy Smoke, the Spectator's Religion podcast. |
| 0:46.3 | I'm Damien Thompson. |
| 0:52.5 | That man... that young man, I forgive him because it was what Christ did |
| 1:19.4 | and is what Charlie would do. |
| 1:22.9 | The extraordinary spectacle of Erica Kirk, |
| 1:47.1 | widow of Charlie Kirk, forgiving the young man accused of his assassination at the enormous public memorial for Charlie, has sparked a debate, especially in Christian circles, about the meaning of forgiveness. And I'm very glad to be joined today by Professor Everett Worthington, whose Commonwealth |
| 1:53.6 | Professor Emeritus at the University of Virginia Commonwealth, and is also a practicing clinical psychologist who specializes in the subject |
| 2:06.7 | of forgiveness. |
| 2:07.9 | And indeed, that was an academic specialization of his before on New Year's Eve 1995 |
| 2:16.8 | 95. |
| 2:22.0 | He faced what you might call the ultimate test of practical forgiveness when, tragically, his mother was horribly murdered in her home by thieves who'd broken in. |
| 2:35.0 | And in the aftermath of that, Professor Worthington continued his work into forgiveness, both as a tool |
| 2:45.0 | of counseling as an area of academic specialization, faced a further tragedy in 2005 when his brother, who'd, of course, |
| 2:54.9 | also been grappling with this terrible tragedy, took his own life. Nonetheless, Everett |
| 3:00.6 | Worthington is still somebody who, you know, a Christian preachers a message of forgiveness, |
| 3:06.9 | but understands the enormous complexities of the |
| 3:10.4 | subject, which I think have been rather highlighted by Erika Kirk's very moving and very explicit |
| 3:18.5 | forgiveness of the man accused of robbing her and her children of a beloved husband and father. |
... |
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