You are listening to the War on the Rocks podcast on Strategy, Defense and Foreign Affairs.

My name is Ryan Evans.

I'm the CEO of War on the Rocks.

In this episode we focus on Cyber.

Cyber operations, in particular the Solar Winds Hack and Microsoft Exchange

Hack by Russia and China respectively. We have three great experts to help us figure

out what we should take away from this. Erica Bogard, who is a senior fellow at the Carnegie

Endowment for International Peace,

Dimitri Alperovich, the chairman

of the Silver Auto Policy Accelerator,

and Jason Healy of Columbia University.

Since we recorded this episode, the United States levied severe sanctions on Russia,

not just for the Solar Winds Hack, but a series of other misbehaviors over the years.

Our guests talk a lot about what the United States should and should not do in response to this and I think you'll find their answers very interesting.

So the Solar Winds or the Holiday Bay operations I call it because it actually isn't a

somewhere to solar winds given that there we now know it was probably over a

hundred different vendors involved that were hacked as part of that operation.

But what happened there is it was a supply chain attack,

not the first time we've seen supply chain attacks,

but the first one that's been wildly successful

and infiltrating the US government on this level.

And the Russians were able to leverage

...